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#1 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other. » Yesterday 11:45:59
Most who are here know that I am no Rocketman. My ability to understand orbital mechanics are limited.
However, I have some other useful concepts down.
This post should be regarded as a continuation of the two previous posts. #203 and #204.
In 204 I suggest the possibility of a "Mars Oberth Starship" to assist a Starboat to return to Earth from Mars. As with cycling spaceships, however you face a great danger if your deep space acquisition between the Starboat and the "Mars Oberth Starship" fails.
In early days of Mars this danger might need to be faces.
But if the method is sensible, then what if you had 3 each "Mars Oberth Starship's" doing the Oberth burns, and 3 each Starboats?
your danger is perhaps considerably reduced. If you have one or two Starships that are successful, and any of the Starboats are successful, then you may have survivors.
That may sound dire, but if the Starboats are simply on their own, then they must execute their burns correctly or be in a dire situation anyway.
If one Starboat is off course, there is a chance that a "Mars Oberth Starship's" could have resources to alter course and intercept the "Lost" Starboat.
Anyway as is often true, there can be safety in numbers.
Ending Pending 
#2 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other. » Yesterday 11:14:53
This post relates to the just previous post about Starship V4 and Starboat.
I may have a notion worth at least a look, which may make Starboat a much better option.
I think that if Starboat goes to Mars from LEO, it should be accompanied by a full Starship, landing only.
That is no intention to relaunch the full Starship. So, if the two were docked together in transit, this would greatly increase the comfort and safety of the travelers. Radiation protection may be better as you can impose the bulk of the full starship between the sun and the humans. The major Starship then can become part of a Mars infrastructure upon landing.
The above is all contemplated already.
If we had the assets for it, we might station a full Starship in orbit, to then accompany the Starboat back to Earth to offer similar protections and comforts. But unfortunately it is difficult to stop a Starship in orbit of Mars, and otherwise you end up refilling a whole Starship on the surface of Mars which is a burden we wish to avoid by doing a Starboat in the first place.
But I recalled a "Free Return" which could be used in the event that a mission to Mars had to be aborted prior to landing on Mars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-return_trajectory
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CloseSketch of a circumlunar free return trajectory (not to scale), plotted on the rotating reference frame rotating with the moon. (Moon's motion only shown for clarity)
In orbital mechanics, a free-return trajectory is a trajectory of a spacecraft traveling away from a primary body (for example, the Earth) where gravity due to a secondary body (for example, the Moon) causes the spacecraft to return to the primary body without propulsion (hence the term free).[1]Many free-return trajectories are designed to intersect the atmosphere; however, periodic versions exist which pass the moon and Earth at constant periapsis, which have been proposed for cyclers.
Earth–Moon
The first spacecraft to use a free-return trajectory was the Soviet Luna 3 mission in October 1959. It used the Moon's gravity to send it back towards the Earth so that the photographs it had taken of the far side of the Moon could be downloaded by radio.Symmetrical free-return trajectories were studied by Arthur Schwaniger of NASA in 1963 with reference to the Earth–Moon system.[2] He studied cases in which the trajectory at some point crosses at a right angle the line going through the center of the Earth and the center of the Moon, and also cases in which the trajectory crosses at a right angle the plane containing that line and perpendicular to the plane of the Moon's orbit. In both scenarios we can distinguish between:[2]
A circumlunar free-return trajectory around the Moon. The spacecraft passes behind the Moon. It moves there in a direction opposite to that of the Moon, or at least slower than the Moon in the same direction. If the craft's orbit begins in a normal (west to east) direction near Earth, then it makes a figure 8 around the Earth and Moon when plotted in a coordinate system that rotates as the Moon goes around the Earth.
A cislunar free-return trajectory. The spacecraft goes beyond the orbit of the Moon, returns to inside the Moon's orbit, moves in front of the Moon while being diverted by the Moon's gravity to a path away from the Earth to beyond the orbit of the Moon again, and is drawn back to Earth by Earth's gravity. (There is no real distinction between these trajectories and similar ones that never go beyond the Moon's orbit, but the latter may not get very close to the Moon, so are not considered as relevant.)
In both the circumlunar case and the cislunar case, the craft can be moving generally from west to east around the Earth (co-rotational), or from east to west (counter-rotational).For trajectories in the plane of the Moon's orbit with small periselenum radius (close approach of the Moon), the flight time for a cislunar free-return trajectory is longer than for the circumlunar free-return trajectory with the same periselenum radius. Flight time for a cislunar free-return trajectory decreases with increasing periselenum radius, while flight time for a circumlunar free-return trajectory increases with periselenum radius.[2]
The speed at a perigee of 6555 km from the centre of the Earth for trajectories passing between 2000 and 20 000 km from the Moon is between 10.84 and 10.92 km/s regardless of whether the trajectory is cislunar or circumlunar or whether it is co-rotational or counter-rotational.[3]
Using the simplified model where the orbit of the Moon around the Earth is circular, Schwaniger found that there exists a free-return trajectory in the plane of the orbit of the Moon which is periodic. After returning to low altitude above the Earth (the perigee radius is a parameter, typically 6555 km) the spacecraft would start over on the same trajectory. This periodic trajectory is counter-rotational (it goes from east to west when near the Earth). It has a period of about 650 hours (compare with a sidereal month, which is 655.7 hours, or 27.3 days). Considering the trajectory in an inertial (non-rotating) frame of reference, the perigee occurs directly under the Moon when the Moon is on one side of the Earth. Speed at perigee is about 10.91 km/s. After 3 days it reaches the Moon's orbit, but now more or less on the opposite side of the Earth from the Moon. After a few more days, the craft reaches its (first) apogee and begins to fall back toward the Earth, but as it approaches the Moon's orbit, the Moon arrives, and there is a gravitational interaction. The craft passes on the near side of the Moon at a radius of 2150 km (410 km above the surface) and is thrown back outwards, where it reaches a second apogee. It then falls back toward the Earth, goes around to the other side, and goes through another perigee close to where the first perigee had taken place. By this time the Moon has moved almost half an orbit and is again directly over the craft at perigee. Other cislunar trajectories are similar but do not end up in the same situation as at the beginning, so cannot repeat.[2]
There will of course be similar trajectories with periods of about two sidereal months, three sidereal months, and so on. In each case, the two apogees will be further and further away from Earth. These were not considered by Schwaniger.
This kind of trajectory can occur for similar three-body problems. The problem is an example of a circular restricted three-body problem.
While in a true free-return trajectory no propulsion is applied, in practice there may be small mid-course corrections or other maneuvers.
A free-return trajectory may be the initial trajectory to allow a safe return in the event of a systems failure; this was applied in the Apollo 8, Apollo 10, and Apollo 11 lunar missions. In such a case a free return to a suitable reentry situation is more useful than returning to near the Earth, but then needing propulsion anyway to prevent moving away from it again. Since all went well, these Apollo missions did not have to take advantage of the free return and inserted into orbit upon arrival at the Moon. The atmospheric entry interface velocity upon return from the Moon is approximately 36,500 ft/s (11.1 km/s; 40,100 km/h; 24,900 mph)[4] whereas the more common spacecraft return velocity from low Earth orbit (LEO) is approximately 7.8 km/s (28,000 km/h; 17,000 mph).
Due to the lunar landing site restrictions that resulted from constraining the launch to a free return that flew by the Moon, subsequent Apollo missions, starting with Apollo 12 and including the ill-fated Apollo 13, used a hybrid trajectory that launched to a highly elliptical Earth orbit that fell short of the Moon with effectively a free return to the atmospheric entry corridor. They then performed a mid-course maneuver to change to a trans-Lunar trajectory that was not a free return.[5] This retained the safety characteristics of being on a free return upon launch and only departed from free return once the systems were checked out and the lunar module was docked with the command module, providing back-up maneuver capabilities.[6] In fact, within hours after the accident, Apollo 13 used the lunar module to maneuver from its planned trajectory to a circumlunar free-return trajectory.[7] Apollo 13 was the only Apollo mission to actually turn around the Moon in a free-return trajectory (however, two hours after perilune, propulsion was applied to speed the return to Earth by 10 hours and move the landing spot from the Indian Ocean to the Pacific Ocean).
Earth–Mars
A free-return transfer orbit to Mars is also possible. As with the Moon, this option is mostly considered for crewed missions. Robert Zubrin, in his book The Case for Mars, discusses various trajectories to Mars for his mission design Mars Direct. The Hohmann transfer orbit can be made free-return. It takes 250 days (0.68 years) in the transit to Mars, and in the case of a free-return style abort without the use of propulsion at Mars, 1.5 years to get back to Earth, at a total delta-v requirement of 3.34 km/s. Zubrin advocates a slightly faster transfer, that takes only 180 days to Mars, but 2 years back to Earth in case of an abort. This route comes also at the cost of a higher delta-v of 5.08 km/s. Zubrin writes that faster routes have a significantly higher delta-v cost and free-return duration (e.g. transfer to Mars in 130 days takes 7.93 km/s delta-v and 4 years on the free return), and so he advocates for the 180-day transfer.[8] A free return is also the part of various other mission designs, such as Mars Semi-Direct and Inspiration Mars.There also exists the option of two- or three-year free-returns that do not rely on the gravity of Mars, but are simply transfer orbits with periods of 2 or 1.5 years, respectively. A two-year free return means from Earth to Mars (aborted there) and then back to Earth all in 2 years.[9] The entry corridor (range of permissible path angles) for landing on Mars is limited, and experience has shown that the path angle is hard to fix (e.g. +/- 0.5 deg). This limits entry into the atmosphere to less than 9 km/s. On this assumption, a two-year return is not possible for some years, and for some years a delta-v kick of 0.6 to 2.7 km/s at Mars may be needed to get back to Earth.[10]
NASA published the Design Reference Architecture 5.0 for Mars in 2009, advocating a 174-day transfer to Mars, which is close to Zubrin's proposed trajectory.[11] It cites a delta-v requirement of approximately 4 km/s for the trans-Mars injection, but does not mention the duration of a free return to Earth.
So, with a relatively passive free return, the Starboat might need to launch from Mars orbit to meet up with a full Starship that is on a 2 year free return loop around Mars. That would doom them to 1.5 years though to get back to Earth.
But if the Free Return Full Starship were bent, by using an Oberth maneuver while passing by Mars, perhaps the trip back to Earth could be modified to be more survivable.
This could be important if it is discovered that some artificial gravity could help human health maintenance a great deal. A coupled Starship and Starboat might give that synthetic gravity.
So, a "Mars Oberth Starship" could swing by Mars and I hope that a Starboat could align with it for a return to Earth.
Of course, if the Starboat ends up alone because of a failure of the "Mars Oberth Starship". The return to Earth could be rather desperate, and marginal in hopes for success. But if the two can meet on a path back to Earth the inhabitants of the Starboat would have a potentially much more favorable transit situation.
The risks are approximately similar to the risks of using a Cycling Spaceship. But you would know before you launched from Mars if the Full Starship was on it's way and if it seemed to be functional during the Oberth burn. You might be able to abort the launch of the Starboat, if the Oberth burn did not go as required.
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The Oberth effect is a phenomenon in rocketry that describes how a spacecraft can achieve greater efficiency and speed when its engines are fired at high speeds, particularly during maneuvers near a gravitational body.
Definition and Explanation
The Oberth effect is named after the German physicist Hermann Oberth, who first described it in the early 20th century. It states that a rocket or spacecraft generates more kinetic energy when it fires its engines at high speeds compared to when it does so at lower speeds. This increased efficiency occurs because the kinetic energy (KE) of an object is proportional to the square of its velocity, as expressed in the formula \(KE = \frac{1}{2} mv\^2\), where
m
m is mass and
v
v is velocity.
Wikipedia
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How It Works
When a spacecraft is in a gravitational well (like near a planet), it can gain additional speed by firing its engines while falling towards the planet. The gravitational pull accelerates the spacecraft, and when the engines are ignited at this high speed, the resulting increase in kinetic energy is greater than if the engines were fired at a slower speed. This principle makes the Oberth maneuver particularly useful for maximizing the efficiency of fuel usage during space missions.
Wikipedia
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Practical Applications
Powered Descents: During landings on celestial bodies, firing engines at high speeds allows for more effective deceleration and control.
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Gravity-Assists: Spacecraft can use the gravitational pull of planets to gain speed. By timing engine burns during close approaches, they can maximize the Oberth effect and achieve significant velocity increases.
2
Multi-Stage Rockets: The Oberth effect is also crucial in multi-stage rocket designs, where upper stages can achieve greater kinetic energy than the total chemical energy of the propellants they carry.
13 Sources
Conclusion
The Oberth effect is a fundamental concept in astrodynamics that highlights the relationship between velocity and propulsion efficiency. By strategically planning engine burns at high speeds, spacecraft can optimize their energy expenditure, conserve fuel, and enhance mission capabilities, making it a vital principle in modern space exploration.
diversedaily.com
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Ending Pending
#3 Re: Terraformation » Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots, Mega Structures » Yesterday 10:49:57
Well, this is interesting. I suppose that even if you intend to use mirrors in terraforming you might want fusion power in space: https://www.ycombinator.com/launches/Oo … sion-power
Quote:
Zephyr Fusion: In-orbit fusion power
Powering tomorrow's industrial revolution in spaceGalen Burke
Zephyr Fusion
8 days ago
Embed
https://www.zephyrfusion.com
#hard_tech
#aerospace
#satellites
#fusion_energy
TL;DR: Most satellites are limited to kilowatt-scale solar power, constraining high-power applications in orbit. The unlimited vacuum in space allows a dipole magnetic confinement device to form the large plasma confinement regions fusion requires without bulky reactor hardware. With HTS magnets and declining launch costs, compact megawatt-class fusion in orbit is now within reach, unlocking an industrial space economy.
So, of course this might be useable far away from the sun. Competitive with solar power?
I guess we will find out, if it works at all.
Ending Pending
#4 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Lattice Fusion Lattice Confinement Fusion » Yesterday 10:41:53
OK, Cold Fusion again. (I am just reading this not saying it is real): https://engineerine.com/canadas-cold-fu … akthrough/
Quote:
Canada’s Cold Fusion Breakthrough: The Energy Shift No One Saw Coming
Last Updated on November 15, 2025 by Alex Ramirez
Claim:
Multiple experiments confirmed the breakthrough.
A reaction sustained for nearly two full days.
A steady output of excess heat, proving net energy gain.
Helium formation inside the sealed chamber, matching predicted fusion signatures.
No neutron radiation or dangerous byproducts.
A reactor that remained cool throughout the process.
Quote:
Inside the palladium-based lattice, hydrogen atoms are stripped of some of their electrons and forced into dense arrangements. The superconductive environment enables electrons to move as collective waves rather than orbiting individual atoms. This creates partial electron shielding, reducing proton repulsion.
Artificial intelligence continuously monitors atomic spacing, adjusting magnetic confinement with microscopic precision. As the distance between hydrogen nuclei falls, the probability of quantum tunneling increases sharply. When tunneling occurs, two hydrogen nuclei merge into helium, releasing energy as heat.
This heat arises from the mass difference between the hydrogen nuclei and the resulting helium atom. Yet, unlike hot fusion or fission, cold fusion produces no harmful radiation. The process follows a low-energy nuclear pathway that avoids the dangerous emissions associated with other nuclear reactions.
This is nuclear power transformed—clean, safe, and fundamentally different from the reactors of the twentieth century.
They said Hydrogen. Not an isotope? No Neutrons emitted it seems.
OK if it is real I suppose it will not go away.
Ending Pending
#5 Re: Not So Free Chat » Guilt and Shame Accounts. » Yesterday 09:41:08
I have decided to take a chance that rational thinking will consider this post.
A long time ago I read a book: "Book: "The evolution of human sexuality, by Donald Symons".
I base much of what I believe about human sexuality on that book.
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The Evolution of Human Sexuality by Donald Symons
The book "The Evolution of Human Sexuality" by Donald Symons is a comprehensive exploration of human sexuality from an evolutionary perspective. Symons argues that the differences between men and women in sexual behavior and attitudes are innate, and that it is impossible to achieve identical sexualities in males and females. The book is organized into chapters that cover various aspects of human sexuality, including:
Chapter One: Introduces basic evolutionary concepts.
Chapter Two: Discusses the difficulties in applying these concepts to human beings.
Chapters Three and Four: Focus on the female and male sexual natures, respectively.
Chapters Five and Six: Explores intrasexual competition and sexual choice.
Chapter Seven: Examines the desire for sexual variety, emphasizing male sexuality.
Chapter Eight: Integrates earlier material and argues that sexual intercourse is understood as a service or favor that females render to males.
Chapter Nine: Tests the hypothesis that male and female sexuality differ by nature with independent evidence.
Chapter Ten: Recapitulates the book's major themes.
The book has been influential in the field of human sociobiology and is often used as a textbook. It has received both positive and negative reviews, with some critics questioning Symons's explanations and others finding it a classic work on human sexual evolution.
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I have come to regard the idea of chemical and surgery mutilation of those not yet past puberty and even full adulthood as a crime.
Those who promote it are criminals in my judgement.
Puberty is a special stretch of formation of a human.
Before that girls and boys associate rather well.
At the onset of puberty, girls bond with girls, and boys bond with boys.
Maybe we could call this Homobonding. While it could involve Homosexual activities, it usually does not.
This is actually quite sensible, as during puberty, it is possible to create a pregnancy, and that would be dangerous to individuals with insufficient development. Obviously a danger to a pregnant girl, but also dangerous to both genders, as the additional burden of either the birth of a child is something they are not ready to supply, or the death of the girl, reduces chances of having children later.
At the completion of puberty, typically girls and boys rediscover each other, as it becomes safer to risk a pregnancy. Even boys who have perhaps done.
Homobonding (Things like Sportspals, or the equivalent for Girls)
Homocontaxuality (Touching)
Homosexual (You know)
Activities are likely to become more Heterosexual.
So, I consider it very wrong to prompt children going through puberty to think that they have gender confusion. They probably do, and usually when the finish growing up they will become dominantly Heterosexual.
I consider that those who promote the mutilation of children are either ignorant or may have a malice such as eugenic intentions, or perhaps a desire to cripple a society or a conceit that they can accelerate a social change to create a new reality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism
Here is a further search for Accelerationism: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Accelerat … pc=EDGEXST
We should be very careful who we consider to be "Experts".
Ending Pending
#6 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other. » Yesterday 09:13:46
This video talks about a supersized V4 Starship, and towards the end, Starboat (Mini-Starship): https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC Quote:
Elon Musk Revealed Big Upgrade on Starship V4 Shocked NASA!
YouTube
TECH MAP
1 views
Starship>200 Tons Payload in reusable mode.
The blurb about Starboat is especially interesting to me. More or less an optional 3rd stage for the Starship system.
-Could be lifted to LEO fully filled with propellants by one Starship.
-Payload to Mars 5-25 Tons?
-2200 km point to point on Mars. (Using 100 tons of propellants)
-50-120 tons of propellants to get back to Earth.
-1/5th as heavy as a Starship.
Ending Pending
#7 Re: Terraformation » Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots, Mega Structures » 2025-11-19 09:58:57
So then for the most part the sun is surrounded by a sphere of light that attenuates as it expands.
The Earth has a similar sphere of gravitation dominance which is lighted by the sun's process, and which attenuates considerably less from most sunward to least sunward, except for being in the Earth's or Moon's shadow.
But mass is lumpy and not very distributed. Redistribution and spreading of mass include ideas like Dyson Spheres. These better mixes mass with energy available.
Mass to space currently is from the Earth, but we are contemplating the Moon as a source, and some asteroids over time may make a contribution. Down the road Deimos/Phobos/Mars will make a contribution.
With that mix it may be possible to have a reasonable distribution of types of Mass, which would be helpful.
Of all of this though, I am very interested in "Waste Mass", and the reuses of it.
A Data Center in orbit will likely require high quality forms of mass. But recycled products from it are not likely to be apples to apples. My guess is that for some time it will make more sense to build Data Center structures on Earth or even the Moon, but until sufficient waste mass has accumulated in orbits, the special requirements for the creation of them will not exist in orbits. It would be stupid for the most part to return waste mass to a worlds surface, and even a form of pollution problem, so ways to make something useful from waste mass are going to be important in orbits.
Elon Musk's notion of making Satellites on the Moon and launching them to orbits is very sensible. Much more sensible than to launch a bag of rocks and then plan to make something out of it in orbit. Better to launch a useful machine and get the economic use out of it and then find something useful to do with the waste mass when it becomes obsolete or has a failure of function or utility.
How Mirrors might be made is an interesting question. But the things they might do, could be valuable. As for Deimos/Phobos/Mars, could they compete with the Earth and Moon to make these "Satellites", that Elon Musk is interested in?
Most or all of the Mass would come from Deimos and Phobos, I presume, but some items might come from Mars.
Let's say somehow you did set up a Data Center production facility among these 3 worlds. First of all, unlike mostly empty space which provides sunlight at best we have somewhat distributed mass in the form of Deimos and Phobos. This can be made into radiation shielding at the very least which empty space without waste mass cannot provide.
Pause............
Alright let's reset that formulation. we plan to get materials from multiple sources. Chips from Earth, maybe the Moon. Bulk mass from Deimos and Phobos.
Bulk Mass from Earth seems to require combustion propulsions. We don't have anti-gravity or Space Elevators from Earth.
Bulk Mass from the Moon seems to require a mass driver, maybe tethers/space elevators, but expensive in any case.
Bulk Mass from Demos and Phobos may only require that MagDrive and/or Neumann Drive can propel bulk mass to the Earth/Moon gravity wells. The propellants for these devices are typically conductive materials which include Many Metals, Silicon, and Carbon.
So, now we may have a market for Deimos and Phobos products to support Data Centers for Earth/Moon. And Mars could make a buck providing specialty items to Deimos and Phobos.
And solar power plants build from the materials of these 3 worlds, would only work better as they approached the Earth/Moon.
So, then rather than sending a solar power plant and MagDrive and/or Neumann Drive back to Demos/Phobos/Mars, it along with it's cargo would arrive to Earth/Moon as useful items and eventually would contribute to the accumulation of mass in the orbits of Earth/Moon.
Of course while doing this you would make habitations of Deimos/Phobos/Mars, and so would have learned how to work with rubble piles and with a world with ~.38 gravity, which of course Mercury also approximately has.
I think it could work.
Ending Pending
#8 Re: Terraformation » Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots, Mega Structures » 2025-11-18 07:55:17
Elsewhere, mirrors are being discussed: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11238
"Index» Business Proposals» Business Opportunity - Mirror in orbit"
Quote:
SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,783
I believe musk was wanting to use them in orbit to control global warming a few months ago.
I guess I am ready to go after that in a friendly way now. But I will note that Pavlov has conditioned the Climate Issue people.
So, prior to this we had "Subtractive Climate Considerations". It would be correct to render people who should be surfs, after all back to being surfs for the sake of the climate which after all should be the property of the Elites.
But here we have "Additive Climate Considerations", which may serve to improve over a future of poverty, and yet give medication to a "Climate Illness", if there is one.
We might have a class of devices we could call "Planetary Energy Diverters".
Planetary Energy Diverters:
Examples:
Low Latitude to High Latitude Mirrors. If we have a mirror that orbits in low latitudes and diverts energy to higher latitudes, then the diversion works in two ways. 1) Perhaps 20% of the intercepted sunlight is converted to infrared, and more glows than reflects and that has a very limited ability to penetrate to the surface of the Earth. So, even a mirror to some extent is a shade.
It might be possible to divert some of the light to higher latitudes. Perhaps a lake or fjord? If you put floating solar panels on that body of water except for the immediate shorelines, then you could provide power and heat to that community.
Of course weather can block that, so you might want several targets available. You might want to install an OTEC like power generating capability as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_the … conversion
The floating solar panels assembly could also be insulating to a degree, so you might have warm water under it that floats on colder water.
The North having abundant cold in the winter, might allow an OTEC like operation 24/7.
*These mirrors might be used in spring and fall to protect crops from untimely frosts. Good soils may exist where the natural growing season is >90 days. Modifying 1 or two cold snaps might improve the growing season to 90 days or more.
In this post I have shown the possibility of shining light onto a section of "Ocean Desert" to make it both grow food and to sequester Carbon out of the atmosphere. https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 59#p235159 Quote:
K, let's have a look at this:
I am going to imagine targeting multiple locations on the planet.
If that mirror is shading the planet Earth, then we will have the ~20% heat loss as well.
Data Centers: It is expected that these will get their energy from large solar arrays. These could on occasion shade the Earth. When they do, they will cool it. A lot of people think that Data Centers can pay for themselves. Also, they will not drain power grids on the Earth itself.
Other Objects in orbit: Space Habitats could also have large shading solar panels. Beamed power to the surface of Earth, if it shaded the Earth would provide a net cooling, as the beaming efficiency is not high, and much of the intercepted light will convert to heat that does not penetrate to the Earth's surface.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The accumulation of space junk will require the increasing building of objects in orbit which might be made to shade the Earth.
Ending Pending
#9 Re: Not So Free Chat » Guilt and Shame Accounts. » 2025-11-18 07:40:24
About #3 of the first post. Exploitation of the male mating drive for money and power.
Choosing to confuse the public to make that more possible.
Hatred of common people to the extent of trying to weed out the "Undesirables".
My point is we cannot really rid ourselves of these people who try to exploit our guilt accounts while having no remorse in doing it.
But don't automatically accept the spiritual bills they send to you, don't pay them automatically. (Pay your honest money bills if you are needing to), Consider the possibility that the authority they pose as could be false to some degree. And consider that they may be gas lighting us.
Don't pave the highway to hell for them to lock you in their illusions which may not be reality at all.
Ending Pending
#10 Not So Free Chat » Guilt and Shame Accounts. » 2025-11-17 21:48:45
- Void
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I live in a guilt culture for the most part so I will avoid comments on shame cultures except for basic definitions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt%E2% … f_cultures
Quote:
Guilt culture is a societal framework where individuals are motivated by internalized feelings of guilt to adhere to moral standards and socially acceptable behavior.
Definition and Characteristics
Guilt culture emphasizes individual conscience and personal responsibility. In such cultures, individuals often reflect on their actions and feel guilt when they violate their own moral standards. This internalized sense of guilt serves as a mechanism for self-regulation and social conformity. Key characteristics include:
Here I am going to try to reduce my comments about things like sexuality, except for social abuses perhaps. There be great dangers in that house of ill repute.
One of my main targets will be the "Global and Climate Change/Crisis" Hypes.
Let's suppose that in the individualistic "Western" perhaps Christian oriented cultures, there could be such a psychological thing as a "Guilt Account".
This would be an organizing function that would help collections of individuals to establish "Sidewalk" rules. Rules with expectations.
Parents and some organizations somehow establish this in individuals. And individuals have actual emotional responses to guilty feelings.
Lets suppose that some illegitimate power sources have learned how to "Hack" the guilt account.
This happened to some usefulness in the 60's and 70's, but I feel has become criminal at this point.
The problem is if excessive withdrawals are made then the ability of guilt to regulate behavior may expire. People like myself will come to the opinion that I am guilty according to someone's agenda, no matter what I may do. And at some point I come to hold these guilt mongers as hostile forces with bad intent.
In the beginning of the previous turning I may have been regarded as guilty as to not be of the purist race example, or cultural example. We have tended to blame the right for that, although I am not entirely sure.
These days it is more the left that charges on our guilt account.
1)
Let's start with this one "Stolen Land". First of all, the accuser has no authority to make that judgement. Second, I am a citizen of the Earth just like all other humans who I expect to be native to Earth at this time. If in the time of Columbus, everyone was white on the planet and they all spoke English, you would say that one tribe displaced another. The same thing that Europeans were doing to each other in Europe, and the same thing that the people in North America were doing to each other.
It turns out that I have a half-brother who is native American. I am very pleased with that. He have a family of his own. I am pleased with that. I hope that their blood line will multiply. Were many crimes committed on this continent in the past? Yes. Did many races or groups do them? Yes. But it is racist to say that I do not belong on this continent because I am White (More or Less). I understand that at one time the Scotch and Swedes were not considered to be white.
Parts of my family have been here for centuries. A very large part of the "Land Grab" was done by the Federal Government, to protect us from European empires. If those empires had gotten those lands, then we would have ended back inside of one of those empires.
2)
"Global and Climate Change/Crisis":
Here, I am going to name suspects as to who is promoting this and why:
-The Elites of Europe and also the Elite pretenders in North America. These people have never liked heavy industry in the first place. It puts money in the pockets of unworthy people like me, who they feels should be better to not exist, or be a poverty-stricken surf.
-China and Russia. Of course, if they are to convert the world to Communism, stripping us of heavy industry is sensible. After all it was our Heavy Industry not being vulnerable to hostile military actions from abroad, that tipped the balance to our favor.
-Other shame cultures. Most cultures believe that if you are rich, it is because you took wealth from someone. In their minds, we disserve punishment just for doing well. Some cultures may want to forcibly convert us to a religion of some type.
*Are you feeling that you should let these above groups guilt you? Wear you out with endless demands of repentance and demands for "Tribute" which they may call "Reparations".
If someone on the planet demands tribute, I think we should do what we can to give them a bad time.
3)
Gender: (This is a very dangerous one):
It used to be that Church Ladies, pushed the Minister/Priest around to get what they wanted.
Then we started getting "Churchianity". Same stuff, but no formal religious leader, just a social leader.
Then we got "Girlianity". The dehumanization of Men. Bears are better than Men.
What is happening now iis not much better than a house of ill repute. Basically, negotiating with genders to play their parts (Whatever that is), for material goods.
In a Prostitution culture, the last thing you want to do is have healthy citizens. Like creating drug addicts, you want to get them hooked on the idea that the arrangements Money for Honey. Even in marriage. I do understand that the Male if possible, should do as well as possible to contribute to the material needs of his family.
We have perverted rules, to support the house of prostitution. They seem like good morals but some are not.
Have you ever considered how it is that people in primitive cultures could run around naked, all genders and all ages and not self-destruct?
Have you considered that by inflicting excessive partitioning people become poorly imprinted to their natural way of being?
As the southern saying is said to go, "I have no dog in that fight". As I have no marriage or children. I just can't stand how stupid the public is about this.
Anyway, me feel guilty now? NO!
I feel happy that at least I have seen though this "Halo of Lies".
Drastic actions from me. Do I need special attention. No, not really, I am quite comfortable and feel guilt only for the things I think I should hold it for.
I think I have become well adjusted.
Ending Pending
#11 Re: Business Proposals » Business Opportunity - Mirror in orbit » 2025-11-17 21:46:32
Yes, I recall he feels that some of his devices such as future data centers with their solar panels will have an additional property of "Shading" the Earth.
Some mirrors could also do that.
Ending Pending
#12 Re: Terraformation » Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots, Mega Structures » 2025-11-17 15:03:12
Warning! I just added ", Mega Structures" to the topic Title.
I changed it to "Index» Terraformation» Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots, Mega Structures"
This is to cover the "Off Topic" ploy usage.
Agreed Calliban. I think over time there will be orbital "Filling Stations" which will be more than just Depots. Certain services such as repairs and feature alterations might be available there. So, yes high value parts such as engines could be removed for return from orbit, or swapped with other features. For instance, after initial launch a "High-Starship" may not need 6-9 raptor engines to do its work.
A "Filling Station" near LEO, and one or two between that and the Moon make sense to me. Then perhaps a "Filling Station" proximate to the Moon.
If the UK provides an upgraded MagDrive and Australia provides an upgraded Neumann Drive those can use space junk sourced propellants. They could bring precursors for liquid propellants to the filling stations. They might bring water and CO2, or maybe Methane Oxygen, and Hydrogen.
So, a "High-Starship" might refill perhaps 4 times between Lower Earth Orbit and some kind of Moon orbit. This should reduce liquid fuel consumptions.
If SpaceX can develop some kind of Mass Driver to get things off of the Moon, it is possible that that could include Oxygen.
But I think a Hydro-Lox tanker based on the 2nd stages of Stoke Space, or Blue Origin may do.
So, the Oxygen for the filling stations could be sourced from both the Earth and Moon. Possibly Hydrogen as well.
Ending Pending
#13 Re: Terraformation » Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots, Mega Structures » 2025-11-17 10:46:18
I have regained my calm (th).
The problem I see with your perception is similar to the one that says we cannot inhabit the Mars polar ice caps, but the same people may entertain inhabiting the moons of Jupiter.
Another factor is "Hasn't been done that way!". That attitude is like being in the 21st Century and saying, "They way it was done with Apollo...".
Granted Apollo is a very good starting point to reference, but we do not live in that world anymore and many technologies have advanced that were not available then. The "Circle-Back" effect is a real problem in dealing with trying to advance beyond a set of notions.
In fact, for Earth, due to conflicting interests, for a time at least mirrors will be resisted, and I even support that to a limited extent.
Quote from a search engine:
The use of mirrors to terraform planets is a concept that has been explored in various studies and projects. Here are some key points about this approach:
Orbital Mirrors: Giant orbital mirrors can be used to reshape planets by focusing sunlight onto specific areas, creating conditions that are more conducive to habitation.
1
Greenhouse Effect: By increasing the greenhouse effect, mirrors can help vaporize CO2 and create a warmer atmosphere, which is essential for supporting life.
1
Energy Requirements: The production of mirrors and the energy needed to vaporize CO2 can be met using near-term multimegawatt nuclear power units.
1
Technological Challenges: While the concept is ambitious, it presents significant engineering challenges, including the mass and energy requirements for manufacturing and deploying the mirrors.
1
Future Prospects: The potential for terraforming Mars with mirrors is a promising area of research, with ongoing studies and projects aimed at making this vision a reality.
1These studies and projects highlight the potential of using mirrors to terraform planets, providing insights into the scientific and technological challenges that need to be overcome to achieve this ambitious goal.
Here is a possible source of reference to reality. They seem to think they could vaporize the CO2 of a Martian ice cap.
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2019/08/t … ories.html
That implies creation, deployment, and pointing at a polar ice cap.
And is it totally crazy to consider that it could be done for Earth?
Here is some more brimstone from (th) my current personal demon:
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 08#p235508
tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 23,126
For Void re mirrors in orbit...A mirror that is in orbit has to be moving.
I'm asking how the business would provide services.
Fantasy is a vision that is not based upon the Real Universe. It is by definition an imaginary universe.
There may be a fantastic universe where mirrors in orbit do not move.
We do not live in such a universe.
Because this forum generally tries to adhere to rules of the Real Universe, I am hoping you will take the time to try to show us how the proposed business would operate.
A home heated in Alaska using mirror reflected power is a home located in an imaginary universe.
If you were planning to set up heating in a home in Alaska, in ** this ** universe, it could be done. What would it take to do it? If you were the project manager to serve a client in Alaska, how would you plan the project? What resources would you need?
This could be an interesting addition to your already interesting topic.
(th)
Here is what I consider to be a true fact: We are approaching a world of space Mega-Structures or we are not. I think you can live with that.
How many Starships will be built in a day? https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2024/06/s … y-day.html My computer says this:
SpaceX aims to build one Starship megarocket per day at its new manufacturing facility, known as Starfactory, located at Starbase in South Texas. This ambitious goal is part of SpaceX's long-term vision to revolutionize rocket manufacturing and support interplanetary travel.
I have seen speculations of 3 per day even 10 per day. Of course, time will tell. Probably 25% of those will be Super heavies, I suspect, as plans suggest using them 3 times a day, possibly boosting 3 separate Starships in a day.
But none of that is proven. All that we have is that SpaceX is boosting the production rate.
I expect that to pay for that they are going to have to get into sea landings and even sea launches over time, and they need to have a product of sufficient value: https://spaceeyenews.com/spacex-data-ce … 20Starship. Quote:
BY:SpaceEyeNews.
SpaceX Data Centers in Orbit: What Just Changed?
Elon Musk has confirmed it: SpaceX data centers in orbit are moving from speculation to a serious strategic direction. The plan is built around the upcoming Starlink V3 satellites and SpaceX’s ability to launch large batches of them with Starship. Instead of using space only for communication links and imaging, the company now wants part of the cloud itself to live in orbit.
While it is true, that is not directly mirrors in orbit diverting sunlight to points on Earth, it is going to produce A Space Junk Market.
https://www.space.com/air-pollution-ree … k-detected
Quote:
Burned-up space junk pollutes Earth's upper atmosphere, NASA planes find
News
By Tereza Pultarova published October 19, 2023
Chemicals created by fiery satellite re-entries could affect Earth's climate.
I hate to play into the hands of the Greens, but I think responsible behavior will eventually be "If it cannot land correctly, then What goes up must stay up!"
While early data centers will be expanded Star-links more or less, as they increase in size, disposal will become a problem.
At least early on these will become outdated and need replacement, and later on they will have a certain "Run-Time-Life".
SpaceX eventually wants to build satellites on the Moon and launch them with a Mass Driver. If they can, then why cant the launch other machines what will also wear out and become space junk. So, there is going to need to be a Waste Management Company in orbits of Earh/Moon.
But we can be hopeful of Neumann Drive and MagDrive, becoming actual in service in which case space junk can become propellants.
So rather than dumping old machine components into the atmosphere I would expect that space junk will be carried up to more "Eternal" orbits to be recycled into other things.
https://www.spacequarter.com/startup-ad … overnment/
Quote:
Technology
Startup Addresses Space Junk Issue with Backing from South Australian Government
October 14, 2024Space Quarter
So, now we see hope that we can be rational and recycle space junk into propellants and structures.
How stupid it will be in that world, to loft data center materials and dump it into the Earth's atmosphere.
You could lift it to an "Eternal" orbit and abandon it, or recycle it into propellants and structures. I think it is likely true that a disposed of data center could only partially be recycled to be data center parts. Much of the materials have to be used to make more primitive machines that will still be of value.
Next, about Starships of the future. There is some interest in "One-Launch-Starships". If you can pump them out at a fast rate and their materials are valuable in orbit, then perhaps you would make them. Their possible use in space structures such as space stations and the propellant value of their Aluminum and Iron, might justify it. Current versions are expected to be able to lift 250 tons of cargo. In the future versions, I expect more may be likely.
I have my eye on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferroaluminum Remember I do not advertise myself as more than a partially aware amateur in these matters.
I did give the term "One-Launch-Starship". A One-Launch ship perhaps made of something lighter than Stainless Steel for the most part might lift even more to orbit.
But I have also puzzled on a High-Starship. A High-Starship would meet up with a "Low-Starship" in a lower Earth orbit.
A "High-Starship" would not be expected to land on Earth again. It might do skim passes of the Earth's atmosphere to alter its orbits, but it does not have to. Being lighter it will not need as much propellants to achieve higher Earth orbits or to even travel to the orbits of the Moon or even land on the Moon.
Quote:
Physical properties
Physical Properties of Ferroaluminum[1]
Properties Metric
Melting Point
1160 °C at 60% Al
1250 °C at 40% AlImperial
2120 °F at 60% Al
2282 °F at 40% Al
It is possible that a Lithium-Aluminum alloy would be used instead of Ferroaluminum, but I notice that Ferroaluminum can take some heating.
So a "High-Starship's" first service would be to lift >250 tons of payload to orbit and then to do additional service, lifting payloads from a Low-Starship up to higher orbits.
So, it would not be "Expendable".
But eventually it might be put to pasture or junked. It might be made into space habitat, but also could be used as junk to recycle. It could become mirrors.
I have other concerns, but as you see I put some effort into this reply.
What is your response?
Ending Pending
If a "High-Starship" could do air braking without additional heat shielding methods, then very good. If some tiles of active cooling are required, then that might be good.
The ship would not have as much inertia or weight so the amount of heat required in air braking would be reduced.
#14 Re: Terraformation » Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots, Mega Structures » 2025-11-16 14:07:48
(th) probed me about mirrors and references: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 00#p235500
My reply: Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 8,999
https://www.reflectorbital.com/Plenty of negative comments about it.
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
I recall reading a Sci Fi book where a character perhaps named "Ajax", had a homestead in Canada which was lighted by mirrors. So, the concept is not very new.
It seems that the startup will be very humble in its initial efforts. Low Earth orbit devices with limited capability.
But ultimately a mirror might be expected to reflect maybe 80% of the light that impinges on it, and redirection may be possible. If it were a flat mirror with perfect flatness, the light would perhaps not expand that much. For instance, the value of 1.5 AU would make an ideally placed Mars (At 1.5 AU), receive light attenuated by 1/2 due to spread over distance. But if the whole beam hit Mars, then Mars would get the ~80% increase in lighting for the surface area that the light impinged on.
Light hitting a mirror at geosynchronous would have to come back from that mirror to the Earth at some location so the spread would be about 2x the distance to geosynchronous, presuming the mirror is orbitally behind but not occulted by the Earth. So, far less than how much it would spread in going to Mars. So, just for giggles let's say a bit less than ~80%.
As far as levering this thing to point accurately, I guess mount it on a large mass or use gyroscopes.
If you wanted light intensities > ~80% then you could overlap the output of 2 mirrors to the same location and get ~>160% the light of noontime, more or less.
If you wanted to focus the mirror, I suspect that it can be done.
One thing I could annoy you with would be putting mirrors on most of the near side of the Moon and having them on actuators so that they could focus on the Earth. I got an honored member here to insinuate I was an idiot when I last suggested that.
Mirrors would perhaps be more practical at first to power solar satellites, and for those Satellites to beam infrared lasers to other equipment in orbit such other Satellites and maybe electric driven spacecraft such as Ion propulsion.
The value of beamed power is that a spacecraft can have a "Tuned" solar panel that is tuned for a particular wavelength of light. Delivery efficiency might be about 60%. This then allows a spacecraft to have a power supply of a lesser inertia. The provider being massive sends the power and the receiver does not have to propel the sender.
One side property of mirrors in space would be to be able to occult the Earth. If they pass between the Earth and the Sun, they may lessen the amount of sunlight that the Earth receives at one location. If that were to be sent to another location on Earth, then that does not really warm the Earth. If the energy from the mirror is used to power things in orbit, then the Earth is cooled.
Now there is the question of future space junk. I don't think we will be dumping junk into the atmosphere soon but will be recycling it. As recycled it could be made into many things, and perhaps mirrors.
Yes astronomy will suffer, but we will have to see them get many more and bigger space telescopes as compensation.
This little company wants to attempt mirrors in space. Who am I to say no? And in the first post my point was the person does not own space and does not own people and especially does not own me. If you peer into the intentions of leftist people you will come to understand that they intend to own the people, and they imagine themselves as the enlightened and worthy ones who shall own us and all the products we might produce.
Mirrors could certainly be of value on the Moon and for Mars. So, I don't mind a little practice with them.
Here is something that is more likely sooner: "Elon's Ingenious AI Satellites: Powering Earth FROM SPACE?"
I can suspect that the above query is already being twisted to emphasize astronomers' concerns, and the related issue of global warming.
That is not what I want to discuss! High probability this is Anti-Elon Leftist guidance.
Modified the query: "Description, Elon's Ingenious AI Satellites: Powering Earth FROM SPACE? 1d ago,"
Impossible! The discussion I want to have is about data centers in space and these verbal idiots are determined to have the conversation about global warming.
Anyway because of them I cannot get that video. I will just have to say it myself. The Satellite network in space will draw power from the sun and so then not draw power from the Earth's grids (Power Plants).
This inevitably will lead to space junk. Rather than dumping it into atmosphere, it will need to be harvested and recycled. Not all of it could be used for original purposes, and perhaps some could be made into mirrors or other things.
Elon Musk has proposed eventually making satellites on the Moon and launching them with Mass drivers. Again, after being done with their original purpose, the mass can be repurposed again and again.
Mirrors for the Earth could be created in certain instances.
I wonder (th) did you read any of the other posts in this topic before you challenged the legitimacy of the creation of this topic?
Such as how to increase food production?
But don't worry, none of us do everything perfect all the time. Certainly not me.
Ending Pending
#15 Re: Not So Free Chat » Void Postings » 2025-11-16 14:05:37
https://www.reflectorbital.com/
Plenty of negative comments about it.
#16 Re: Terraformation » Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots, Mega Structures » 2025-11-16 09:27:09
I choose not to think of Earth or Mars, but rather, expansion into the solar system when circumstances make it viable.
Before the North Polar ice cap might be colonized, then Korolev might be done: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater) Image Quote: 
At a similar time then a small part of Hellas might be done: https://www.humanmars.net/2019/04/map-o … water.html Image Quote: 
At about 60 degrees longitude and south of 30 degrees latitude, part of Hellas shows hope of buried water ice.
I have prepared a method for a Hellas without ground ice but it seems there may be some ground ice in places.
And the rift valley show hope, between 90 degrees and 60 degrees longitude and just south of 0 degrees latitude.
Whttps://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/astronomers-discover-hidden-water-in-the-red-planets-grand-canyon-180979267/e have reason to believe that there are significant ice deposits in "Candor Chaos". Quote:
Beneath Canyons on Mars, Astronomers Find Potentially ‘Water-Rich Area the Size of the Netherlands’
A Martian orbiter located a large reserve of hydrogen in a mountainous area of the Red Planet
Elizabeth Gamillo
Elizabeth Gamillo - CorrespondentDecember 20, 2021
Image Quote: :focal(1015x541:1016x542)/https://tf-cmsv2-smithsonianmag-media.s3.amazonaws.com/filer_public/19/14/19146d0f-3e37-4658-a00e-498987ce7760/valles_marineris_pillars.jpg)
This topic is mostly about orbital mirrors adding light to areas of a world that may benefit from it. These may do.
I expect such a orbital system and the things that support it to primarily be made of materials from Phobos and Deimos.
While Candor Chaos might do well with solar panels that are relatively flat to the surface, I intend that a wedge type solar panels might be used in both Korolev and Hellas.
Some experiments have been done on Earth, with Bifacial solar panels. A wedge solar panel system simply opens one end of the structure.
From post #29:
My preferred pattern at this time is two walls at a possible (???) degrees of attachment of one end of each wall.
By rotating the structures 180 degrees we can make them suitable for Korolev Crater.
Possibly to cover the entire ice mass of the crater. The solar panels could be refrigerated using heat pumps running directly from the electric power of the solar panels. The excess heat may be put to other services such as greenhouses, and artificial lakes.
While naturally Korolev would have very long dark winters, with orbital mirrors this does not have to be so.
But I see the orbital structures made of Phobos and Deimos being more important. The deltaV of them is less to be in communion with Earth/Moon than the surface of Mars is.
Ending Pending
#17 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other. » 2025-11-15 10:31:02
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:
SpaceX Revealed Starship-Dragon Combination Plan to Reach the Moon Faster than China & BO…
YouTube
GREAT SPACEX
44 views
I think it makes sense to separate the Lunar Space Station effort from the Moon Landing Effort.
Perhaps later then the two could be joined in some way.
In reference to my just prior post here, I am thinking that in the deep future, a "Upstairs Starship" might have its engines in its belly. This would allow it to fire its engines during aerobraking to protect it's belly from excess heat. The engines should be desired to be allowed to fire a reduced temperature mix, such as 90% Methane/10% Oxygen.
But when properly used, it may not be a problem to use the engines to travel towards the Moon, when in a vacuum.
Engines being in the belly, then they would also be suitable for landing on the Moon.
To get this thing to orbit it may need raptors in its tail, but upon reaching orbit those could be removed partially or entirely.
My notion is that this ship would not land on Earth ever again but might do repeated skips on the Earth's atmosphere. As this would take time, so a capsule return of crew would be appropriate.
Having a Starship escort a capsule both to and from the Moon, would give the capsule additional protections such as radiation protection in many cases.
Ending Pending
#18 Re: Terraformation » Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots, Mega Structures » 2025-11-15 09:27:00
The Saudi seem to be involved with an interesting process for cooling solar panels.
https://www.sustainability-times.com/en … gy-output/ Quote:
“Desert Tech Breaks Physics”: Saudi Cooling System Slashes Solar Panel Heat by 49°F, Triples Lifespan, Surges Energy Output
In a remarkable breakthrough for renewable energy, scientists at Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah University of Science and Technology have developed an innovative cooling technology that dramatically enhances the efficiency, output, and lifespan of solar panels, promising to reshape the future of solar energy.
Rosemary PotterRosemary Potter06/06/202536
Copilot Search:
Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST) has developed a groundbreaking cooling technology for solar panels. This innovative method utilizes a composite material made of lithium chloride and sodium polyacrylate, which absorbs moisture from the air during the night and releases it during the day through evaporation. This process not only reduces the temperature of the solar panels but also boosts their power output and extends their lifespan. The technology has been tested in diverse environments, demonstrating its potential for widespread application in the solar energy sector.
From post #29:
My preferred pattern at this time is two walls at a possible (???) degrees of attachment of one end of each wall.
So, we have two methods to collect moisture from the Mars atmosphere, and in one case it may increase the output and longevity of solar panels.
The salt bed I suggested needs an independent robot to collect moisture from the salt periodically. However, the Saudi method with the moisture collector behind the solar panels, then releases moisture on the heating of the solar panels, and that moisture could be automatically collected at the tops of the solar panels.
Now then a Mars tree could do various manipulations.
It could split the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen and release them to atmosphere. The Hydrogen would be a greenhouse gas but would rapidly leave the atmosphere.
Or you could make hydrocarbons and Oxygen (Also using CO2) and feed it to microbes. Mushrooms could grow on the residue of bacteria.
The organic process would probably leak greenhouse gasses by intention or as a natural imperfection of a process.
So, these trees could in fact produce product, Algae, Yeast, Mushrooms perhaps. Also, electricity also Methane could be created, and Oxygen created.
And it should be reminded that water is to be produced as well, so humans could live near these "Forests". The "Forests" can be at very low altitudes like Hellas and the Northern plains. These places provide relatively better radiation protections.
Electrical conductors and pipelines could be involved in networking these outputs to a useful purpose.
So, it would make a great deal of sense to use mirrors in orbit to add more photons to the processes of these "Trees".
The trees will still need robot tenders, to clean dust off of the solar cells and for other purposes.
So, this might be a pretty useful component of a method to make Mars to be alive and reasonably productive.
Ending Pending
#19 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other. » 2025-11-15 09:05:49
As always, I have the potential to be wrong.
I have been thinking about an "Upstairs Starship". This would be a Starship which typically does not land on the Earth but maybe at times might land on the Moon.
I am thinking that it would be made of "Ferroaluminum": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferroaluminum
The Melting point would be 1250 C, I think, which is lower than Stainless Steel. But it is corrosion resistant.
It would have less weight and less inertia. So aerobraking to aerocapture might be possible. Of course, it would have to be refilled by a "Standard Starship".
The objective would normally be to not dive too deep into the atmosphere before skipping off, to keep peak heating down.
But it would not be forbidden to have supplemental protections such as tiles and active cooling. It might be possible to have ports in the belly what would allow fluids to be injected under the belly. Ideally this cooling method could also be used in navigation though the atmosphere.
The purpose of a machine like this would be to take possession of a package from a "Standard Starship" and bring it to a higher orbit.
This would probably be for freight.
It is possible that it could be in association with a Electric Rocket System.
This then would be a intermediary between a "Standard Starship", and an Electric Rocket System.
So, the "Standard Starship" might refill it with Methane and Oxygen but also perhaps an Argon/Xenon mix. The Electric Rocket System with large solar panels staying out of the atmosphere even at very high altitude would provide shade and cooling power to keep the boil-off problem under control.
Perhaps the Electric Rocket System, would not go as low as the ISS is to reduce drag. (Perhaps).
The "Upstairs Starship", then being linked to the Electric Rocket System could as a hybrid travel to an orbit of the Moon. To come back, the combination might separate at some point so that the "Upstairs Starship" could use air braking to get it down to take payload from a "Standard Starship".
And of course I am hoping that eventually the Electric Rocket System could be switched to a metal propellant such as Neumann Drive or Magdrive might allow.
In that case, refilling could be done at the Moon orbit. Both Metals propellants, and Oxygen.
Ending Pending
#20 Re: Terraformation » Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots, Mega Structures » 2025-11-14 11:50:04
I would hope to have "Mars Trees" eventually wherever temporary ice caps form. The vertical walls might thaw much sooner than the ground that they are on so this might allow an early spring thaw. Of course, the structures will have to endure a Martian winter with CO2 condensate perhaps.
We could hasten the thaw of the temporary ice caps with orbital mirrors. We would be shining light onto vertical solar panels mounted on the "Mars Trees".
As for the South and North Ice caps, I suggest only warming the south cap to vaporize the permanent CO2 ice cap content.
As for the North I would want to try to melt a little sea all the way around that North ice cap.
Copilot Search:
Images
Videos
The northern ice cap on Mars depresses the rocky crust beneath it due to the weight of the ice. The ice sheet is approximately 1,000 kilometers in diameter and up to 3 kilometers thick, and its load causes a phenomenon known as glacial isostatic adjustment, which is similar to how Earth's surface is affected by ice sheets. This process results in the crust being depressed, with the rate of deformation estimated to be about 0.13 millimeters per year, indicating that the mantle beneath Mars is highly viscous and cold.
https://astrobiology.com/2025/03/marss- … neath.html
Quote:
Mars’s Northern Ice Cap Is Young With A Cold, Stiff Mantle Beneath
By Keith Cowing
Press Release
DLR
March 3, 2025
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So, I am hoping for direct melting under ice. That is you might create an aquifer in the ice cap by bombarding it with microwave energy, and sunlight from mirrors. Rivers can flow on Mars if they are ice covered.
So, I hope to produce a liquid water sea ringed in the low area around the ice cap. The Sea will be ice covered, but may support life under the ice.
So, indeed I intend to promote the idea of Mirrors made from Phobos and Deimos, to assist in making Mars more habitable.
Keep in mind that in the deep winter of Mars mirrors will be melting this ice, not just in the summer.
As for evaporation, it has no place to go but onto one of the ice caps.
Ending Pending
#21 Re: Terraformation » Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots, Mega Structures » 2025-11-14 10:43:41
I wish to innovate on the basis of a post from (th): https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 57#p235457
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tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 23,092
For Void re https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 55#p235455Thank you for the reminder of the important and visionary work you are doing!
It seems to me that the idea of dust fences would certainly help with the ongoing and persistent problem of dust on Mars.
In opening the new topic about fixing the surface of Mars, I was attempting to follow up on ideas of Calliban and kbd512 about materials that are available on Mars. It seems to me your idea would surely help, with the caveat that the material of which they are to be made must be identified.
It seems to me that fences such as you have described might help to ease the problem, by discouraging dust from lifting up into the air in the first place.
A study of how well fences work for this purpose would be interesting.
A similar idea would be honeycomb style structures. Those would just be tiny fences. The dust might flow in but it is unlikely to escape.
Thanks for your suggestions!
(th)
In the area where there are ice slabs we might mine ice and create "Dust Trips". Extracting the ice and leaving a hole.
The only problem with this is we have to make sure that we pack enough dirt onto the walls of ice left behind so that the ice body does not keep evaporating.
While many who think of mining this ice will think to blast and collect or liquify, I am of the view that forced sublimation may be best.
How about a big hovercraft balloon with skirts? It is to have a tank to compress Mars air into, and then may periodically release the air under it to become temporarily mobile. The Balloon may become a condenser for water, as heat applied under it would evaporate a trench, and the air sucked in then compressed and the Mars environment being cold condensation may result.
The device may have a following skirt that will tail in the trench which is being created.
Heat is applied under the device to cause buried ice to waste into water vapor. The water vapor is sucked into a compressor and so condensed into liquid water, and perhaps Ice.
Water Trucks should then come to take away the collected water to a desired purpose such as Fuel for Starships or greenhouses, etc.
A balloon hovercraft would be lightweight and so relatively easy to move with bursts of compressed air under it and with longer intervals of harvesting water. The Balloon itself might be the reservoir of compressed air to do the movement.
The resulting trench may possibly demobilize dust that falls into it.
Ending Pending
#22 Re: Terraformation » Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots, Mega Structures » 2025-11-14 08:55:49
This topic has a multiplanetary range, but ultimately it is more about being able to redirect energy to suit human desires than anything.
In post #11, I mentioned making wind breaks to hang solar panels on, in Hellas.
Elsewhere (th) is working on "Trees" for Mars: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11237
This is fine as we may get multiple solutions.
I start with bulk materials from Mars in the case of Mars:
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Copilot Search:
The process of compressing Martian soil into bricks has been a topic of interest for researchers and engineers. Here are the key points of the process:
Mars-1a Simulant: The process involves using a Mars-1a simulant, which is a Martian soil simulant created to mimic Martian soil conditions.
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High-Pressure Compression: The soil is placed in a flexible container and compressed under high pressure, similar to the pressure generated by dropping a 10-lb hammer from a height of one meter.
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Iron Oxide Binding Agent: The iron oxide particles in the Martian soil act as a bonding agent, allowing the soil to form a solid that is similar to dense rock.
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Strength and Durability: The resulting bricks are stronger and more resilient than steel-reinforced concrete, even without the need for additives or heating.
6This innovative method not only reduces the need for additional materials but also eliminates the need for heating or baking, making it a practical solution for constructing structures on Mars. The research has been supported by NASA and has the potential to revolutionize space exploration and settlement on Mars.
6
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https://www.zmescience.com/science/mars-brick-is-cool/
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Turns out you can make harder-than-concrete bricks on Mars simply by compressing soil
That's surprisingly convenient.Alexandru MicubyAlexandru Micu April 27, 2017 - Updated on April 22, 2023 in Science
Image Quote: 
So, I would be thinking of a form of metal perhaps into which you could compact Mars soil to make walls to serve as the "Trunks" of "Trees".
https://happho.com/rammed-earth-construction-house/
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The metal form would be reusable.
My preferred pattern at this time is two walls at a possible (???) degrees of attachment of one end of each wall.
This may, among other things serve as a "Wind Fence" and may somewhat prohibit "Dust Devils".
Dust collected may be converted to something else that will not blow in the wind.
The "Salt Pad" is to be in the shade almost always, and is intended to be cold and to collect moisture.
Robots can microwave it to release water vapor, and a vacuum can collect and condense it into water.
I you have water, and CO2 and Nitrogen, and electricity from sunlight then you can synthesize both a fuel and Oxygen to feed microbes with.
By filling Hellas or other areas with such "Trees" we are increasing the surface area of Hellas, and then so dividing the sunlight. While the solar panels may be warm when illuminated, they may have offsets to allow air to pass behind them. The walls of the trees will tend to be cold.
So, the wind break effect and the coldness of the air coming from the walls, may tend to discourage dust devils. By arraigning that and by collecting the dust into larger objects we may discourage Global Dust Storms.
Mars Global Dust Storms tend to erupt once every 3 Martian summers, I believe.
So, for at least 2 out of the 3 summers we can shine light on the "Trees" in Hellas from orbit. In the other seasons we can do that as well.
This should increase productivity. But of course the goal is to quell Global Dust Storms, so this has to be moderated carefully to avoid those.
I think that the other factor of Mars Global Dust Storm would be a cold Mars Winter in the North Hemisphere.
Using mirrors we can warm up the North polar areas to inhibit that factor. While doing that we can also do "Mars Trees", or even melt some water from the North Ice cap.
Ending Pending
#23 Re: Life support systems » Dust Mitigation Mars Solidified Regolith or Artificial Lichen » 2025-11-14 08:46:48
(th) This is just to remind you that I have been working in a similar direction to your objectives: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 11#p235211
Not Van Neumann of Mars Trees, but a collaboration of Mars Biomechanical Trees with the efforts of machines/robots, and Humans.
Ending Pending
#24 Re: Human missions » Blue Origin » 2025-11-13 22:50:46
This is a bit old and certainty speculative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-SY9hJtIYY
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Blue Origin's Starship Killer?
Eager Space
19.3K subscribers
Someone named Gary is mentioned.
If it is like this then it would be a cousin to Stoke Space 2nd stage.
I would like that.
If Starship and "Jarvis", and Stoke Space are all a little different, then they may each be able to be good at different things.
We are very lucky if we get 3 or more fully reusable options that are "Friendlies". (Sort of Western).
My opinion is that they should enlarge the base, so that the thrusters will be exposed during launch and so that the size of the heat shield can be larger. But I am not a great source of wisdom on this things. I just think that they may be able to use the 2nd stage thrusters during the flight up before separation from the 1st stage, and I hope that could reduce gravity losses. Hopefully it would not burn the 1st stage too much.
Ending Peiding
#25 Re: Terraformation » Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots, Mega Structures » 2025-11-13 08:51:31
From post #26 Calliban said:
It may turn out that substantial water will eventually be found beneath the surface of the moon. Go just 1m down and temperature is a stable -20°C even at the equator. So any water at this depth will not be mobile. Any that migrates through the interlocking maze of mineral grains, will be trapped at this depth. Any small cracks and crevices in the surface may also serve as cold traps.
I am revisiting the ideas of Moon formation. Collision? Other?
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Images
Videos
Slight moisture content
The Moon is not completely dry, but it has a slight moisture content. Recent research has confirmed the presence of water molecules (H2O) on the Moon's surface, particularly in sunlit areas, indicating that water is widely distributed across the lunar surface. Additionally, studies have detected water within ancient volcanic deposits, suggesting that the Moon's interior may contain substantial amounts of water. Overall, while the Moon is not wet like Earth, it does have a slightly moist environment.
ZME Science
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https://www.zmescience.com/feature-post … eters-rep/
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Scientists have finally confirmed what lies deep inside the Moon and it’s surprisingly Earth-like
The moon is still an extremely interesting place to study.Fermin KoopbyFermin Koop November 5, 2025 in The Moon
A A
Edited and reviewed by Mihai Andrei
I am going to speculate that the Moon may have water vapor emissions from deep down at times.
What seems to be more certain is that the Moon has water cycles like Earth even though it does not have a proper atmosphere.
it has water vapor, that "Condenses" into minerals in the temporary cold spots, and we think also longer-lived frost in the polar craters.
Can we ever say that the Moon has a Relative Humidity? I think it does.
Elon Musk has speculated that Quantum Computing might work very well on the Moon, in the polar craters. Also Data Centers with solar power on the Moon. If there is $$$, then it may be affordable to import substances the Moon is low on, but it may be that it has enough water.
Ending Pending