New Mars Forums

Some further thoughts.....

In the beginning humans will not overnight on the Moon, but robots could.  And when a Stubby HLS is about to leave for orbit, it might be unloaded of any and all items possible to expend.  Then robots left behind might do things with that material.

A Stubby HLS that lifted its humans to Lunar orbit and then managed to land again, might provide shelter for robots.  A tent skirt around the bottom might provide shelter from night cold and day heat.  The ship with batteries and solar cells might provided electric power to the robots.

The first line of robots I think of are the sweepers.  They would travel about during Lunar day and sweep up as much of the fines as they could.  Those might be reacted with plastics and organics with pyrolysis to produce fuels and Oxygen.  Fuels might be Methane and Hydrogen.  Also reduced regolith possibly can be used in Magdrive and Neumann Drive, if they are made conductive.  I do not yet know if that is possible.  And then to produce Oxygen.

But the Pyrolysis may produce water and CO2 first, which could more easily be stored until it is time to make it into propellants.

The sweeper robots might somehow use electrostatics to collect the dust.  During the process they might be able to extract the expected .5% Iron content by using magnetics.

The base site being reduced of dust, other mobile machinery will suffer less from the results of dust on them.

Many robots will not be humanoid, but some might be.

But I have wondered about Knuckle Walking robots on the Moon.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuckle-walking  Image Quote:

Of course in the Moons lower gravity, it could do both Knuckle Walking and bipedal walking.

To protect the hands, it could have gloves like a tin can with a grip inside.  It would not walk directly with hands on Lunar Surface.

As for carrying things, it could have various tools like a pouch, or perhaps be able to push a wagon, gripping it with its hands.  The wagon walk thing might be the best method of travel for it actually, and knuckle walking less so, and bipedal only used, when useful.  It may be that these robots could bound as a method of travel as well, maybe hopping, but being able to end a hop with four hand/legs.

As I understand it walking on the Moon in a balloon suit is a bit like walking on ice.  So, methods to stabilize would be desirable.

These would normally not be out on the raw Lunar surface, but on the surfaces previously treated by sweeper robots.

So, humans inhabiting shelters on the surface of the Moon would actuate these robots much more than to go out on the surface in a space suit.  And actually, much of the directing of such robots could be from humans on Earth as well.

If we than can bring plastic and Organic materials down to the surface of the Moon at a bargain price as I have suggested in previous posts, then these robots may be able to be assistive in manufacturing propellants.

And of course, if we can lay hands on Lunar resources such as water ice, then all the better.  But some bases may be quite far from the polar areas, particularly if it is true that Platnum Family Metals are to be found in about 6500 craters on the Moon.

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Relating to previous posts.  I keep forgetting to mention that pyrolysis with airbag plastics and organic materials does not have to be a one time thing.  If you keep getting CO2 and H20 out of the pyrolysis, then you can keep manufacturing Methane to again react with more regolith.  And each time should yield Oxygen.

Of course leaks and other losses will eventually "wear it out", but you might just keep getting plastics and organic materials delivered to the Moon to make up for that.

Pyrolysis>Electrolysis>Pyrolysis is one option.
Pyrolysis>Algae>Pyrolysis is another possible path.

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At first I misunderstood why Tim Dodds, concept would expend a Superheavy.  So, I thought of something.  But it is not directly appropriate to saving the Super Heavy.  But I will present the idea anyway as it could be food for someone's imagination.

I need a drawing....  OK, this violates the "Can, within a Can" mandate usually followed by SpaceX/Elon Musk and co.

The three or more sections do not share common bulkheads.  But I feel that we could make a "Stubby" for Tim Dodd, by stacking #1 and #3.

But it would be possible to add multiple sections #2 stacked on each other as another option.

The option to flow propellants into the Locomotive Section #3, from an Auxiliary Tank #2, might be exercised while firing the rocket engines, but that might require piping and valves that are too big.

So, rather, I imagine that when the Locomotive Tank #3 runs dry, you coast for a while but maybe firing a small engine only, while you pump out the Auxiliary Tank #2 into #3.  Then you fire up more engines if you feel you need to.

A Lunar Starship might have 1 or 2 or even more Auxiliary Tanks #2 and reach orbit from the surface of the Earth, (I hope).

Locomotives #3 would likely be used on the Moon until they crash.  Cargo/Cabin #1 sections might often be left on the Moon as habitat or contribute to making a space station.

#2, Auxiliary Tanks might be accumulated for Reuse.

So, to go to the Moon, a Cabin/Cargo #1 might have several Auxiliary #2's attached to it.  And one #3 Locomotive Section.  This stack would get it to the Moon orbits where #1, and #3 would be separated from the stack of #2 Auxiliary Tanks.  The Auxiliary Tanks would remain in orbit of the Moon until removed by something like an electric rocket.

The Stubby Stack then of #1 and #3 would land on the Moon and perhaps ascend back up together, or the #1 Cabin/Cargo would be removed by some means, and the #3 Locomotive would ascend and be used, to drop more cargo by means similar to what is in this post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 20#p234320

Quote:

A means to get people back to Earth could involve Orion or Dragon, at least in the early days.

Most mass however would go to the Moon, except that it may be desirable to have a means to retrieve the Auxiliary Tanks #2 to a lower Earth orbit, perhaps by Electric Rocket.

An exception might be if valuable metals can be found and mined on the Moon, such as Platnum Family Metals.

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This is nice: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
SpaceX's new Lunar Starship Option to Go Back to the Moon: Shorter & Launch from LEO...

Tim Dodd: 400 Ton Stubby HLS Starship.

You lose the Superheavy though to get it up to LEO.

I have already supported Starboat or a "Shortie HLS".

This concept needs a Depot as a orbital 1st Stage, and then the Stubby HLS would be the 2nd stage.

Also Dr. Zubrin has things to say about Dragon and also Falcon Heavy to access the Moon.

I consider all of this as being worth further thinking.

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I also make mention that the focus on the Lunar Poles, does not anticipate possible Platnum Family Metals that may be at lower latitudes.  And lower latitudes are easier to access anyway.

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So, stuck in the 70's is the idea that the Moon, has water ice and maybe even dry ice at it's poles.  Will Apollo type technology, of course that should be regarded as a necessary condition.

With Starship and the hoped for electric propulsions, we have massive lift like the Panama Canal, and efficient ocean going ships to ship large amounts of Cargo.

The surface of the Earth is rather ideal to make materials that would be useful on the Moon.  If you could get the raw materials to LEO, then with human telepresence labor and robots in orbit, also it may be possible to manufacture things needed on the Moon.

The polar ice masses on the Moon, do suggest to make the things there, but we don't know if it is that easy to make these things on the Moon from local materials.  It can be yes or no, it is probably not as easy as just saying it could be done.  But I definitely think it should be tried.

If you were also to consider making these things from Mars/Phobos/Deimos and ship them by electric rocket to orbits of the Moon, is not out of the question.  Electric propulsion and time might do the deed.

Similarly, from the Asteroid Belt as well.  These are all possibilities.  If what is most wanted on the Moon is plastics and organic materials, there may be many paths.  And with patience, robots, electric propulsion, and energy, these things could be brought to the Moon from various sources.

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I thought of this today:

For worlds that have small axis tilt.

If all the exposed surfaces could be made mirror with Aluminum coatings, then it might make a reasonable storage for cold.

The inside of the torus on the surface, resembling a amphitheater would be fairly sheltered from radiation from the sun, and quite a lot of GCR.  Maybe sheltered from as much as 75% of GCR?

Presumably mostly made from sintered or cast blocks of regolith.

It might have use., but more so for the radiation protection at high latitudes.  You might add containers of polar ice over any machines that you would host inside of the amphitheater.  This would add more radiation protection.

The structure might somehow be incorporated into a heat engine I would hope.

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Further thoughts about the dart drop method: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 83#p234283  Quote:

A dart poking into the dust regolith might experience a variation on heating intensity.  This would depend on the speed of insertion.

As a solid, even if it shatters that would likely be OK.
As a liquid, chances are it would solidify, on its outer edges, rather quickly, I think.
As a vapor, provided the dust pack above did not rupture, then the vapors might penetrate the regolith and solidify.

The mixture of dust and plastic could be put into a pyrolysis oven, to facilitate the reduction of the dust and the production of H20 and CO2, presuming the plastic be largely of Carbon and Hydrogen in content.

Then various methods could be used to split the CO2 and H20, to produce various products including Oxygen and Fuels.

The reduced dust may be a product worth lifting to Lunar Orbit.  The level of reduction might be metered as you may want to extract the remainder Oxygen in Lunar orbit or even in LEO, if it were brought to LEO.

It may be an undesired expense but the dust for the receiver might be cooled and piled up in the Lunar Night Time.

That would require a lot of physical manipulation though.

But dust cooled to a very low temperature and piled up as a receiver, might be better at vaporized plastics.

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A ship based on Stoke Space or Blue Origin landers, might be good near the poles for Hydro Lox propulsion.

But elsewhere, I would be interested in something based on NEUTRON 2nd Stage, where the landing legs would be made of plastics.  The plastic legs would allow it to land, but they would be left behind when the ship took off with a load, to provide future fuel amount other things.  The Moon itself could produce Oxygen for the propulsion.

The "Sky Crane Starship Locomotive" Drop system from the previous post could support the fuel and other needs by dropping darts of useful materials.

This may be better for places where Platnum Family Metals may be found at lower latitudes of the Moon.

While the Moon may provide Oxygen, electric propulsion may bring in materials such as Methane and Darts to Lunar Proximity.

These originally may come from Earth but possibly later from another source in the solar system.

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I have been thinking of how perhaps with Starship "Slices" of value could be accessed.

The Pez Dispenser thing is rather interesting.  Yes, it looks like it can push similar shaped objects into space orbits.  So far this are to be Satellites for Starlink.

But it seems sensible that if other companies would make their devices of similar size and shape, those also could be dispensed to orbit.

In a "Slice" called "Microgravity Manufacturing", it might be that raw materials could be in pallets of similar shape and size, and perhaps finished products could also be held in those pallets.

So, then like birds exchanging food by mouth, as a parent and nestling bird might do.  A ship might meet up with a station in orbit with similar payload bay door, and by mechanisms exchange pallets.

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But another "Slice" I have my eyes on involves the supposed Platnum Metal deposits on the Moon.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/24 … -the-moon/  Quote:

I would argue that legal difficulties are not such a problem.  A world where Platnum Family Metals are brought back to Earth is a world where an action will "Benefit All Mankind".  It is not as important who does the service as that the service is done.  And those who do such a service, deserve a reward for its doing.

But I am not only interested in the Platnum Family Metals, but also the regolith it may be mixed in.  That should contain Oxygen, and also Metals and Silica that could be of value.

The Platnum Family Metals seem as though they will be distributed around the Moon, not just at the poles.

While I see this as involving Starship type devices, I think other landers that may be derived from other vendors may have merit.  Electric Propulsion and also chemical propulsive devices similar to NOVA (Stoke Space), NEUTRON (Rocket Lab), maybe Terran-R (Relativity Space).  Those perhaps upsized to fit into Starships Cargo Compartment?

The Platnum Family Metals may in part justify the operation and the production of Oxygen and other substances would be a byproduct.

The concept of Lithobraking which is apparently considered a joke, has evolved in my mind to perhaps not be a such a joke.

Suppose we made plastic bullets of a large size with bubbles of air inside and dropped them.  Could we penetrate them into fine regolith?

We would be allowed to put a protective thin shell of metal around them to help if that were helpful, in fact.

My logic is that if you have to carry the plastic materials all the way to the Lunar Surface to a soft landing, you have to fortify the landing legs of the lander, and have to expend the propellants to land the payload and the legs.

The military makes shells that can penetrate concrete walls.

My expectation is that these "Darts" can be dropped from a reasonable height, either from a craft that will land or one that will not even have landing legs.

While the impact on normal regolith will be uncertain in results, if you sift out fine materials and make a landing receiver from them (Pile of fine dirt), the dart will embed itself into the dirt and will behave in a fluid manner as it penetrates.  The dirt parachute is a bit of a joke but not really.  The splash will help it slow down the load.

The dirt being cool may allow some materials that may evaporate to condense onto it.

The Plastics, of various types could be useful on the Moon to make structure and to make Fuels.  The fuels would be useful to refuel the ships that will lift products including Platnum Family Metals to Lunar Orbits where electric drive propulsion ships may bring the products to Lower Earth Orbits.

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I will point out that terminal velocity on the Moon is not infinite, it is cut short by the shrinkage of time of travel.  The faster the dart goes; the sooner it hits the dirt.  The sooner it hits the dirt, the less speed it accumulates.  The less speed it accumulates the less hot it gets on impact.  And the dirt will both cushion and envelope the darts.

I will not claim that building materials will come from the Moon by this economic process, but maybe they will.  Maybe we can get space solar power out of this as a byproduct, or maybe we have to have a mass driver.

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It is not unusual that we disagree.  We each know the stated position of the other.  That is not worthless.

I would give my notions of the undercurrents of reality that compel me to take the position/risk that I do, but that would be to give navigation information to an adversary. Not particularly wise.  I feel that this is all unnecessary, but at times all you can do is swim in the conditions mandated by nature.

I think you are not all right but might not be entirely wrong.

Time will tell.  We will all pass away in time as well, and I don't know if we will hear the telling.

Good luck with your paths on this if you are right, that you get your reward.

I also will take my chances.

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I have some awareness of those cycles. 

It is the summer temps that matter in the onset of an ice age.  The winters can be as cold as can be; it does not so much matter.  But if the summers are not warm enough then the net snow deposit is (+) and year by year accumulation occurs.

I will promote a notion of my own you may be interested in.  It is a hunch so don't think I consider it validated.

So, I think that conifers can cause summer warming, as in the spring, they can absorb light early and convert it to heat that may melt the snow.  But without them the snow pack will reflect light into the sky, delaying summer.

As I recall the conifer's need two things. 1) Soil that is thawed sufficiently in depth that their roots can keep the winds from toppling them.  2) A two-week period of time in the summer where the temperature can rise above 50 degrees F.  (10 degrees C).

So, I believe that during an interglacial, the conifer forests slowly march north, as they drive the ice caps further north.
But should they consistently not get a reproductive period in the summer, they will die off and eventually the snow accumulations win out, as the trees are stripped of vegetation and finally rot down.

So, if the trees could grow on ice, our climate patterns would be different.  But they cannot.

But as a terraforming tool, we could make artificial trees on top of ice.  Vertical solar panels.  So, if an ice age were inflicted on us on Earth, we might use such a trick.

If fact if we did not like Antarctica accumulating ice, we could cover most of that with such devices.

But I don't recommend that, but I do suggest it as a treatment for Mars.

Have a good day Robert.

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Fraud then.  Thank You Robert.

I have noticed a lot of this sort of thing expanding on the internet.

It is very annoying.

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I will say though that just maybe, some archaic animal of plant might be revived from the deeps of Antarctica.  It is a long shot for DNA, but maybe under very cold conditions.  I might hope.

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