New Mars Forums

If we depart from water as a support, the drum must be enhanced in strength. 

It then is a roller with a flat solar surface:

I have not shown actuation methods, as there may be many options.

The device could be for various purposes.  It can be a greenhouse, or a thermal collector/reservoir.  You would need linear concentrating mirrors and perhaps windows, to do thermal collection.

But things I read suggest that the ability to split water, and CO2 are to become lower cost, and that LED's will become more efficient.

The ability to generate Acetate and Oxygen to stimulate the growth of Algae is already considered to be 4 times better than Photosynthesis, but I expect that the need for special materials like Platinum will decrease and so drop the price of the activity.

For the growth of Algae or plants could be promoted by a mixture of LED's and Chemical (Acetate + Oxygen), method.  Windows may be more trouble than they are worth.

As for managing heat fluctuations, I would expect that the daytime will promote a heating inside of the drum, but a special radiative coating of the drum may help dissipate heat, especially in the nighttime.  OF course, on Mars, rather than Earth the retention of heat will be more desired.

The thermal mass in the interior of the drum, including water will moderate the extremes.

You could lay the drum North to South or East to West, depending on your purposes.

Unlike bifacial solar panels, the East to West orientation of the solar panels can capture morning noon and afternoon sunlight.

While the drawing indicates a flat surface, the solar panels might have degrees of freedom on hinges to better face the sun.  Solar Flaps.

Prolonged freezing conditions may provoke a danger where the water freezing might damage the drum.  So, that problem needs to be handled. 

IF your algae are in plastic bags then that might reduce the problems.

The air pressure inside the drums can be towards "As Desired".  Probably on Earth it would be close to atmospheric at the location.  On Mars the interior of the drums, may likely have increased pressure imposed on them.

If temperature can be kept from extremes, then these drums can be sealed for the most part, and the water included is likely to stay inside the structure.  So, it may be that this form of activity may be quite good in desert locations.

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Maximized Shade-Balls, Shade-Cylinders.

There are only two worlds where I think this technology might have merit.  Earth and Mars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shade_ball
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What I am after is a means to special environments like deserts and others.  The hope is to find an alternate use for Carbon in fossil fuel reserves and also the CO2 in the atmosphere.

My idea is to make very large Shade Balls or Shade Cylinders.

Cylinders could work well for Canals in Deserts. 

For Something like the Salton Sea, then whole rows of Cylinders.  It can partially sun follow either North South or East West.

The ball itself makes primarily of plastics, and the sundeck to keep UV off of the plastic for the most part.

The internal waters could be capable of supporting a crop.  For instance, for the Dead Sea, you could put fresh water in and grow things like duckweed for instance.

Part of the game is to limit evaporation.  So, if you did a lot of this you might be able to expand the Dead Sea, and cover the exposed toxic soils.

It would probably make sense to take water from the Colorado River and fill basins which will be evaporating prohibited.  You could cover much of Lake Mead, I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Mead
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The green goblins with their anti-micro-plastics Hysteria, are most likely socialists and commie wanna-bees, who hope to cripple cultures they want to take over.

Tell them to cure micro-plastics for things like Car Tires and Synthetic Clothing before worrying about the Maximized Shade flotation devices.

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For Mars you might do it dry on flat soil.  But later when the planet is partially terraformed it might be possible to convert over to very salty cold bring that they can float on.

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I will make an exception here, as I consider Greenland to be part of my heritage, perhaps distantly but still I have a connection to it.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … df39541c77  Quote:

Although my brother is 1/2 Swedish by family rumor., of that about half of it is Norwegian.  I know that my Grandmother was from very close to Norway.

So, the Norse probably thought of the western settlements as being similar to the lands of Eurasia, that the Vikings also went into.  Except that you could travel more by sea than by interior rivers.

The wood remnants and tar from North America seems tin indicate much more Viking activity in the west than was thought.

Indigenous genes from North America in the Greenlanders is an interesting find.  I wonder if some of it got to Iceland?  Iceland has some Denisovan genetic materials.  Perhaps it came from North America?

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-ev … ry-0013617
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Someday, I would like to retrieve genes from the remains of the Greenlanders, and also the Dorset peoples, and to actually create children from them to include into our expansions into space.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorset_culture

It is common for human females to transfer into other families or groups, when they become fertile.  I think we suffer some problems from not allowing it so early now.  It may mess up girls to be kept as children so long in their birth families.  I do understand why we delay that sort of thing now though, as humans may continue to evolve, puberty in girls may become more and more delayed.

But I think the most probable instance of a Native American going to Greenland with Vikings would likely be an orphan girl.
But perhaps they could also recruit an adult male Native American with skills.

I will be curious about the "Y" and Mitochondrial genes in the Greenlanders.

By the way Columbus spent a winter in Iceland before sailing to the Americas, probably consulting their records.

https://europeanconservative.com/articl … o-america/
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But I will mostly try to avoid politics here now.

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I will say that if Europe breaks up we might consider an Arctic Ocean community including North America, the Nordics, and Russia.

If the Polar Sea is to melt more, we might as well use if until the climate can freeze it again.

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It is my suspicion that Scotland and North Ireland, are in Ethnographically Pacific waters, and that England, Wales and the rest of Ireland are in the Latin realm.

I believe that the injection of Latin associated genes modified the Americas so that there is a similar crossing point in Eastern Canida.

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I intend to try to have a discipline to avoid chat/politics.  I will stay here (I hope) only for technological matters.

I really was excited about this: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

Yes, the story is rather optimistic, but it is good for the soul.

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It might be better if you let me finish a post before you reply.

Anyway, you see, we are drifting apart, and I think that is as it should be.  I believe in a structure in reality.  In time and space.  I think it is like a magnetic field, but I cannot tell you what it is composed of, what sponsors, it.

But it cannot be that things will not change.  So, it should not be strange to you that we might consider leaving NATO, and partnering with Russia.  After all the Russians have lots of minerals, and they like money just as most people do.

If I had conquered Russia, I would import Russians so that they could live in it and be productive.  There has never been a need to conquest Russia. 

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I almost think that I am not allowed to reply, but I will.

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/uk … r-AA1Rlhab
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So, certain powers want to misuse NATO to get conscripted people from other countries into the fight.

NATO is a defensive organization.  Ukraine is not part of NATO.  If some irresponsible people lead the Ukrainians on about this, I am sorry for them as they are victims.

But a pattern of irresponsible behaviors from Europeans and some Americans and maybe Canada, tells me we cannot partner in NATO anymore.  It is like being with a community of irresponsible people who may lead you into a disaster.

Russia was never going to give up the Naval basing in Crimea.  Had Ukraine simply given them sufficient permissions and had the Russian speakers been given internal autonomy, there is a good likelihood that this may not have happened at all.

The Russians probably have tons of Gold and other things they can use to get needed materials on black markets all over the globe.

But you may be right is this continues there is a possibility of a disruption of Russia.  You want to do that again?  Do you recall how well that worked out for the 20th century?  IF we want the Russians and China to play at all they have to get something better than the destruction of their countries.

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What is the point of that sentence?

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Robert, it may very well turn out that I am too stupid to understand, but your "He Said", is against what others say.

There is a one Star American general from the gulf water that says, Ukraine cannot win and that the Russians will win.

So, it is "He said", "He said", "He said"....................................

Me being as lost as I am, it is a good thing that I am in charge of nothing.

I will say this against you Robert, you strike me as someone who could easily be convinced to go and be fodder on a killing field.

Did this guy turn Commie Russian and the American Government does not lock him up?  https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
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I am afraid I trust him more than you Robert.

Here is something that I am very unsure of as to be real and not deception but it is interesting.  It is yet another "He Said":
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … c4719ce3ec  NATO General: The TRUTH About the Seized Russian Ship | EM Burlingame & Blaine Holt
YouTube
CRYPTO RICH POLITICS
43 views

OK, I am not in a position to want to bet my money or life on any certain view of reality.

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I want to briefly better define the direction of this.

I am being optimistic about Carbon on one or two of the Marian moon.  So, then I am hoping that for orbits of Mars, it may be possible to use CO and O2 combustion for propulsion.

Although it might be possible to spin up the tops with friction on Phobos or Deimos, I am moving towards a parent device that would spin the tops up with rotating magnetic fields.  So then the tops will become flywheels that store energy.

The parent devices might be powered in part with CO/O2 combustion, but for orbital position, and spin, other means may be available.  Perhaps Magdrive or Neumann Drive, perhaps an Oxygen mass driver that ejects Oxygen ice cubes.

So, these spinning tops would need a means to dip down to a small world like Phobos or Deimos, and gather some surface materials.

Then we need a means to rise back up to the parent devices.

We also have a need for a means to transfer the collected "Ore" from the "Flywheel-Tops"< and to the parent devices in Mars orbits.

The tops can also have electric systems in them including an energy source and perhaps batteries.

Some kind of thrusters sufficient for the linear path "Up and Down">

I would prefer to avoid use of combustion propellants, but do not exclude their use.

The parent devices would probably come in pairs, linked to each other so they would not continually build up more and more spin when the would push spin energy into the "Flywheel-Tops".

So, ideally this apparatus can at least partially refill various types of Spacecrafts with propellants.

Again, it may be needed to obtain Hydrogen from Mars itself.

Using mirrors in the orbits of Mars, the energy for this purpose should be relabel from solar energy, unlike the surface of Mars.

So, refilling ships in orbit may be better than to do so on the surface of Mars.  Although you will still want some refilling method on the surface of Mars.

A ship intending to go to Earth/Moon or the Asteroid belt would only need to rise up to orbit and be refilled there, so the refilling on the surface of Mars could be a "Small Partial" refilling.

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So this device is beginning to look like a top: https://fity.club/lists/suggestions/Spinning-Top-Gif/
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We need to keep in mind that the gravity of Phobos and Deimos is rather low.

If it is possible to use the wheeled mouth method to draw dust into this spinning device.  If the bottom is too pointy and sinks in too much then it can be broadened out.

While dust will not naturally cling to all inner surfaces of the device, we can make slag bricks and put them into bags and fasten them to the inner surfaces, to create radiation protection.

I suppose it might even be possible to embed a Standford torus inside of the "Top".

It could be possible but perhaps not sensible.  But the "Top" dust eater is, I think a real possibility.

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OK, I would like to take this a bit further.

Although I would like to Start with a Starship that could enter orbit that may or may not be an option.

1) In accordance with the current plans for Starship on Mars, we will expect to land a Starship on Mars, and refill it and then ascend to Phobos or Deimos to work with it.

2) Alternately using Electric Ion propulsion, we may push a Starship and the mining device from the previous post to proximity of Phobos or Deimos.  This would be stuffed with water ice and CO2 ice but no Oxygen or Methane.  We may need some kind of long term storage propulsion method included such as for the Super Drako's of Dragon.  When it is in place we might try to air brake a starship with humans in it to Mars orbit, or we have to do the method of #1.

If we have the Ice and CO2 Starship in orbit we can put a small cabin in it shielded by these that can host the humans and protect them from radiation.  So probably most of the Cabin and Cargo areas will be occupied by these.  The Oxygen and Methane tanks will be mostly empty, perhaps header tanks will be filled, using some of the water and CO2 and making Oxygen and Methane.

So, we attach this to one or more Starships in an assembly and begin collecting dust regolith into the collection bag.
(This is from the prior Post):

We might have to consume some propellants to do this, to provide the spin and the action to press it into the target.

Once it is filled, we may park a Starship inside of it, and perhaps maintain just a little spin to keep the dust in place.  We need a power supply and a method to bring portions of dust into a maker of some kind, to process it into Oxygen, Iron, and Slag Bricks.

The objective is work up to something much bigger from another post from another topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 28#p236828  A modification of something like this:

The work begins as tedious and slow, but over time this pyramid scheme grows and more and more humans and robots get aboard.

Dust Eather or a modification of it can extend from a much larger structure and go and take bites out of an object and disgorge them into the latest collection chamber.

It is thought by some that Phobos and/or Deimos have Carbon.  They will certainly have Oxygen and Iron.  Hydrogen is a bit of a wild card.  If necessary, it can be brought up from Mars itself by Starships as part of Ammonia which could be stored.

So, this sort of a skeleton of a notion.

If it could work out, then large amounts of Oxygen and Iron may be available as propellants in Mars orbits.  Having Ammonia and Oxygen various propulsion schemes may be possible, including Oxygen/Ammonia, and Oxygen/Methane.  These would not be dependent on surface solar energy, but more reliable orbital solar energy.

You would only need to make Ammonia, and enough Oxygen and Methane on the Surface to get to Phobos or Deimos.  Then you could be refilled for landing, rinse and repeat.  The Ammonia could be used to react with regolith and produce water, and I presume Nitrous Oxide.  Well once you had the water you could keep splitting it, to repeat the reduction of metal Oxides.

Perhaps it would make sense to have an Ammonia/Oxygen engine in the orbits of Mars?

Well, lets call it a "Maybe": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_Motors_XLR99

Maybe Jet Fuel, or RP-1 would be good.  If you could make it on the surface of Mars, then lift it with raptors, then it could be reacted with regolith while heated, in order to reduce the regolith.

Well, I think I will leave it at that. 

I am in favor of having humans both on Mars and in orbit of Mars.  To be in orbit you need good life support with protection but in some ways, the environment is better, some ways worse.

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(th) per: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 70#p236870

I am glad we have a mutual interest.  I did read "The High Frontier" so I understand to some extent what their proposals were.

They hoped to send sacks of Moon regolith by way of a Mass Driver from the Moon to one of the two stable "L" points.

They intended to fine tune the path of the sacks using an electron beam, I believe.  Then they hoped to have the sack rip open on a obstacle and the contents to spill into a rotating drum.

Probably not really workable, as it may cause a lot of trouble with equipment where it might get sand blasted.

But you have to start with a concept and try to make alterations until you can make it work, so they disserve lots of credit for their efforts.

I have seen notions that it is possible to accrete planets in an L4 or L5 zone, in this case Sun/Planet.  But I would like to try accretion into an L4 or L5 Earth/Moon situation.

We appear to have two candidate Matter Projectors the Neumann Drive and the Magdrive.  For sure they will both project Iron, Aluminum, and Copper.  The Neumann Drive can project most items in the Element Table, if they are conductive of electricity.

The High Frontier concept intended that bags of regolith flung off of the Moon would slow down as they approached the "L" point.  Perhaps to hundreds of miles an hour.

Now I will attempt to adapt that.  If we can tame our Matter Projector, to not go full throttle, perhaps we can get the spray to enter L4 or L5 at a reasonable speed.  IF we could use the solar wind to slow it down enough, we might get a capture into the orbit of L4 or L5.  So, the hope is to get is dusty and then accrete the dust.

Easier to say than do, I am sure.

If we can magnetize the dust, (In the case of Iron), then maybe we can get it to clump together).  Possibly an electron beam sweep could magnetize it, just a guess.  Where there is a electric flow, there should be a magnetic field.

But to use the Solar wind to break the dust, it needs to be of a small size, But if we can make it clump up perhaps the solar wind will not sweep it out of the "L4" or "L5" zone.  We also could think to make a massive magnetic field using superconductors, that device to orbit in a "L4 or L5.

So, in that case if we could get the solar wind to deflect the dust towards the magnetic field, it might spill into it an accrete.

For Iron which is below its curie point in temperature, this might work.  For other metals that may have eddy currents, this possibly might work, not sure.  I am not inclined to think that we could catch Oxygen or Oxide materials that I am familiar with.

But if we could project Iron from the Moon and Accrete it to a L4 or L5 location that would be huge.  Because it would be a building material and can be used as propellant in a Neumann Drive or Magdrive.

I might hope that Steel could be used in a Neumann Drive or Magdrive, and that the particles would be Steel, but I suspect that those alloys would be torn apart.  And Steel is typically not very magnetic.

It is possible that we could try to use electrostatics to accrete materials projected to L4 or L5, but I am relatively unsure.

If you wanted to keep either L4 or L5 clean for test equipment like Telescopes you might be able to do that as there are two of them.

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