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This is an interesting record: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … 9d95aa5451  Quote:

So, I am guessing that there are "Ore Bodies" on the Moon in some places.

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(th) you can move this or clone it somewhere else if you like as I feel that this topic can also be useful to train members to understand the contents of the topic.

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I wanted to find this video, which I saw on my smart phone: "+Utube, He Walked on the Moon in 1971, Now David Scott Reveals What they Realy Discovered Up There, 1d ago"

But as often happens no.

I found a different video, but the one above pointed out that Hadley Rill had volcanic flow layers.  That is many eruptions formed the layers.

Often I am given the impression that the surface of the Moon melted and then solidified.  But it was not a one time thing:

Alternate videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J22hKd8SZp8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhLkDOEPWzA

So, the point is, I think that if sequential eruptions happened as the magma reservoirs solidified, the materials in each layer might be different.

There is some question about the idea that the Moon was bone dry.  The 15 mission showed some water.  And the video I could not get indicated that the Moon may have some amount of water in it's interior.  I have to wonder if some lava flows might have more than others.

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Robert,

They might as well do 3 or 4 things that outrage you, because it is a case of "Show me the person and I will find the crime".

The people wo complain are the ones who are free riding on a showboat and will be sorry if and when it goes down and they discover that there are Alligators in the water.

Venezuela?  Nigeria? Greenland?  Trump might as well trigger all of them and eve more, because you have already judged him and choose to be ignorant about the actual structure of reality.

Playing Judge, Judas, executioner as often as you can find an excuse.  Even the British and European churches playing Judas and trying to deliver us to crucifixion.  Such evil with pretense to goodness.

Europeans, and yes maybe some Canadians and Americans, who want to take the car and drive us into disaster, because then can sell their brothers and sisters to a foreign power, just to beg for approval from people who want us gone and our lives destroyed.

You do not see the deeps, and you do not know the pitfalls.

You are not nearly as smart as you want to think you are.

Snap out of it and stand with honor, or you will be abandoned to your fate.

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I like this: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:

I think that the concept of crashing used propellant cartridges onto the Moon to recycle the Aluminum is rather interesting.  "Poincare Basin" is mentioned for a crash location at about 8.23 in the video track,

So, the "Backbone" of it at first would be some kind of electric rocket moving Hypergolic propellants to refill stations, it sounds like.  But later other liquid propellants that are subject to boil-off might be supported as well.

That makes me wonder if the propulsion method can be combined with that of Starship or other ships using Oxygen and Hydrogen or Methane.  I presume that Starship is a major candidate to lift the firefly hardware and propellants to orbit, but then perhaps the Firefly thrust systems could be used to help move Starship from place to place.

That then modifies the travel process if it can be done at that scale.

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.

I want to balance the accounts a bit.  The last post I made had a story about how a certain set of entities were the criminals of our history.

This one gives an idea of how reality at the international level is rather close to the "Law of the Jungle": https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … fff91c494c  Quote:

I was fairly aware of the bigger part of this already.

I guess I might attempt to claim that America's resentment for history and certain actors, made it desirable to make sure that such levels of power could not be exhorted on again.  But I regret the burden that the British people had to endure.

I might try to argue that the method to conclude WWI as said to be enforced by France and Britain onto the Germans, may have brought Hitler to power.

Who is the chicken that laid the egg that hatched into a worse chicken?  It goes on and on.

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Happy winter solstice (About now), and Merry Christmas!

Calliban made a post here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 54#p236354

In this topic: "Index» Interplanetary transportation» Propellant Sourced from Moon"

I made some posts:
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 77#p236377
GW Johnson gave some cautions: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 87#p236387
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 90#p236390
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 90#p236390

I am moving here to get out of the way and to explore possible ways to augment the Starship processes related to the Moon by using local raw materials on the Moon.

1) The earliest possible assistance with Lunar Raw Materials could come from processing Iron and Oxygen.  Magnetic Iron is thought to compose .5% of the Lunar regolith.  It may have some Oxygen bonded to it.  So, robots could collect it magnetically and it could be processed to yield an alloy of Iron, and Oxygen, I hope.  Doing that, then you get two propellants.  Oxygen for the Starship to refill on the Moons surface, and an Alloy of Iron (I hope), that could be used in MagDrive, or Neumann Drive, to escort resources to and from Earth orbits and Lunar orbits.

2) The next level would involve Iron and Oxygen again, but in this case the very Oxidized non-magnetic versions of Iron.
As I understand it from Anthrofuturism this may be the low hanging fruit.  https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism
They teach that while we use Carbon to extract Iron (And Oxygen)) from ores on Earth, on the Moon Hydrogen could do similar, and would be regenerative for the Hydrogen.  That is is you import Carbon to the Moon and use it to process Iron out of "Ores", you leave some behind with each refining event, in the slag.  But apparently with the Hydrogen you can recover what you put in and can accumulate more even because Lunar regolith has some Hydrogen in it. 
https://sites.wustl.edu/meteoritesite/i … unar-soil/
Quote:

So, at that point then you can manufacure water from Hydrogen and then split the water to recover the Hydrogen for reuse, and the Oxygen for breathing or propellant. 

And I expect that you can recover the reduced Iron from the Slag.

Then the Slag can be cast into bojects that might be useful for some purpose.

3) At the point where a lot of Hydrogen may become available from a mineral deposit such as Ice, the use of Hydro-lox engines will become practical, provided such Hydrogen does exist in desired quantities.  This could make it practical to use the 2nd Stage of Stoke Space on the Moon.

But I feel that we also could have a look at putting Stoke Space Hydro-lox thruster technology onto the Starship.
* So you could take a Starship to a "Chop-Shop" and do some add on.
In my posts elsewhere I suggested that you could put wrap-around Hydrogen tanks to encircle the raptor engine bay.  The Starship already has an Oxygen tank so you don't need Oxygen tanks added, unless for some other reason you choose to.  Then mou could use the Stoke Space multiple nizzle scheme for a set or wrap around engine nozzles that burn Hydro-Lox.  This would broaden the base of the Starship.

Then you might employ one time landing legs assemblies to broaden the footprint more.  The one-time leg assemblies would be composed of materials that will be desired on the Moon.  Carbon, Plastics, and substances for alloying metals are some candidate materials.

The leg assemblies could be used more than once, I suppose but by leaving the assembly behind it is a delivered cargo of useful materials and you don't have to expend propellants to lift it to orbit again.

So, how this might work is the modified Starship would be filled with Oxygen and Hydrogen but probably not Methane on the Moons surface.
Hydrogen being a troublesome fuel that wants to boil off, the Moons surface could host an active cooling facility for it.
The Hydrogen loaded and the Oxygen loaded, the ship would launch from the Moons surface and intend to consume all of the Hydrogen.  It may also9 use Methane in raptors or smaller Metha-Lox engines.  All of the Hydrogen would be burned up before all of the Methane was burned up.  So, now that you are in Lunar orbit you don't have to worry about the Hydrogen boiling off.  It is all used up.

Now that the ship is in Lunar Orbit, it may be refilled with Methane from Earth, perhaps delivered by Neumann Drive or Magdrive.
Now the ship may land on the Moons surface again. Provided that a set of landing legs as described before are attached.

Cargos such as as Oxygen and Iron alloys could be brought up.  The Iron Alloys are for Neumann Drive and Magdrive.and perhaps to build structures.  The lading legs are the main cargo to deliver to the Moons surface, but other cargo could become downmass as well.

4) When regolith processing becomes sophisticated enough to generate fine Aluminum Powder, and if sufficient Hydrogen resources exist than the use of Alice Rockets may be considered instead of the Hydro-Lox Engines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_%28propellant%29
As I visualize it these could be solid rocket process, and could be filled and attached to the Starship to assist it to orbit.  The advantage would be that you don't have to work with Liquid Hydrogen.  During launch from the Lunar surface they would burn out and the Raptors would finish the Starship to orbit.

There could be three options of what to do with them when they are burned out.
a) Expend them to crash to the surface.  (I don't like that).
b) Expend them to orbit to be converted into Magdrive or Neumann Drive propellants.
c) Keep them attached to the Starship and land the assembly back to the Moon using raptors.  Then they could be reused. (I like this best).

5) Make solid rockets similar to Alice but using a paste of LOX and Aluminum powder.  I do not know if these could be prevented from exploding, however.

6) Mass Driver of a SpaceX invention.

So these are all "Matter Projection Methods".  But I have suggested a possible progression of capabilities that I think may fit into the settlement of the Moon.

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I am all for a mass driver and it seems Elon Musk and Co. are considering it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afybjgW9JEc
Quote:

TECH MAP
123K subscribers

I will hope they can make it happen.

But I still think that side engines can be considered of the types I previously mentioned in post #53: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 77#p236377

Perhaps this could be prior to and auxiliary to the use of a Mass Driver.

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Here, as it happens is an update for Stoke Space: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

As I have said I have imaged that the engine nozzle setup could be made into a wrap around add-on for a Lunar Starship, allowing a Hydro-Lox assisted launch from the Moon.  This would possibly be useful, if the Moon turns out to have a lot of water ice.

Some rockets do have parallel thrust methods.  The Space Shuttle did, Falcon Heavy does.

This however would have multiple engine nizzles wrapped around the engine bay of the Lunar Starship, and of course it would need propellant tanks for them as well.  However, the heat shield would not be included.

I have also suggested the use of Alice thrust as an alternative or perhaps a paste of LOX and Aluminum powder.

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I like the author(s) of that.

I want to say that I am encouraged that SpaceX is thinking of a mass driver that could launch Satellites, and want them to do what they can in that direction.

But one size may not fit all.

I want to offer the idea of the HLS Power Belt.  If HLS is out superhero of a cartoon, if we can strap auxiliary thrusters that use Lunar resources on it, then we may make a Lunar Starship as a viable method t lift mass from the Moon.

We have three options that I can think of Hydro-Lox, Alice, and Aluminum/LOX paste.

While SpaceX is avoiding legs for Starship to get to the Moon, I propose that legs made of Carbon and Plastics that are one time use might be engaged as well.

I see the idea of using electric Ion propulsion to bring them to Lunar Orbit as being sensible.

Have a look at Andromeda's engine: https://www.stokespace.com/introducing-andromeda/
Image Quote:

This has a Hydro-Lox engine which could perhaps become a "Thruster Belt" that you could wrap around a HLS.

The point is that this could be strapped around an HLS and could be propelled by H2 and LOX from the Moon, if such does exist.

Once you strap a power belt on the HLS, you leave it on, most likely.  So, this then allows HLS to become partially Hydro-Lox, without massive alterations.

This assembly then repeatedly takes cargo up to Lunar Orbits and receives a new dominantly Carbon and Plastic set of landing gear.
Each time it leaves the landing gear on the Lunar surface.

The Carbon and Plastics of the landing gear, plus perhaps some special metals included then support industrial intents on the Moon.

Then perhaps if you want to you can create an "Alice Thruster Belt": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_%28propellant%29
Quote:

When this thruster belt is to be refilled from the Lunar surface, it will burn itself out and most likely you do not want to detach it from the Lunar Starship.  This is because the Lunar Starship is then used to land both itself and the attached "Alice Power Belt" back down to the Moon.

Finally we might be able some day to create a LOX/Aluminum paste engine. for a "Power Belt".
Some research has been done on it: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … ant-source

And: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19940017287

While some of their research suggests squeezing a past out of a nozzle, I would be more interested in setting up something like a "Solid Rocket" method.  So, then the "Power Belt" would be a burn up to orbit but no ability to land itself.  But the Starship could carry it back down.

Adding a power belt to a Starship would broaden its base.  Adding a one-time set of landing legs could broaden it more.

Shipments of propellants from Earth to Lunar Orbits might also be included using an electric Ion propulsion method.  However, I anticipate that if this would be done it would be Methane only, and the refilling of Oxygen could be done on the Moons surface.

I will make the case that a Mass Driver is a mass projector that involves machinery and energy.

But a Starship with the "Power Belt" kit and the "Landing Legs" kit is also a matter projector that involve machinery and energy.

Perhaps both options may have value.

It is not yet certain that a Mass Driver is practical, I might point out.

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I found the article you provided as very interesting/important Calliban.

It seems that P. Zeihan has some things to say that are at least partially true in a big way.  I think that the China story can be modified by the interests of surrounding players, and what they see as worthwhile.  I think that for the USA it may be partially worthwhile to prop up China to some extent, at last for a while.  This can also be true for other pacific rim east Asian countries.

For example if East Asian labor is to falter per human workers, then if they convert partially to robots, to some degree those robot might make things that countries like the USA would want to buy.  It is not only that American artificial labor might be of value but that of other countries also may be useful to maintaining out economy.  So, the future might create strange bedfellows, I am guessing.

Here is some additional fun: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … d9909fe1ba  Quote:

And of course assets that Venezuela siezed under socialist/nationalist justifications, hints at another sort of international money games.

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Here is a related article: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ajaxhist=0  Quote:

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So, I will break my own rules, as sometimes is necessary.  To speak is to be subject to potential predation.

But I like to examine, diagnose, and solve.  This topic of the last post is the equivalent to me of figuring out how to do similar in outer space for a non-human situation.  I am not as obsessed with this one as you might think.  But this "File" in my mind is open so I choose to try to update it.

If it is true that hive minds are often dominated by certain types of females', and a narrow sliver of the male population, then such a hive mind relies on communication at the speed of conversation or it's equivalent.

For the human race to be competent to survive in its environment, it needs efficiency, and it needs capability.  A hive mind can be more efficient and might also have sufficient capabilities.

In terms of the stone age, if you have 10 people with small bodies and extra fat on those bodies, they can survive better than 10 people with lots of muscle and body weight but low-fat levels.  That is likely true, when the food supply runs low. 

The exception to that is if the 10 stronger people take what food there is.  But if that is done, then reproduction is inhibited because you likely killed off many of the female population.

The verbal collective of a hive mind is pitted against the partial autonomy of a collection of men and perhaps tomboys.  That is if you excessively bulk up the brain, you can produce autonomous minds, but that comes at the cost of calories.  Similarly, a bulking of muscle comes at a cost of calories.  The point is, if you can have a collection of autonomous big brained and big muscled people, that can be afforded if the environment they are in offers rewards for those attributes.  But if you are in a calorie restricted situation then you have to go to a lower powered hive mind.

Having the two genders (More or less), allows humans to access either of these options when it becomes necessary.  Compared to most mammals, the human genders are most differentiated of all that I can think of. (I have also read that that is true).

I have read that all computers are female.  Well, I really don't know, here is a response:

I suspect that as robots are created, the result will be more masculine, as to be animated in the material world.  Males typically are more animated, as they have more muscle on average.  I don't know that that is true, but we may find out.

So, what the computer has done for men is to give them a chance to be more communicative.  And the produced network is a hive mind of sorts.  And that may work faster than a purely verbal hive mind.  Verbal hive minds might be slowed down by interpersonal contests.  A computer being a high-speed idiot, (So far), even so a male which is often isolated from the core of verbal hive minds, gains a power he was unlikely to have by using computers.

We will see how gains what when humanoid robots emerge.

What I have at some point read is that in WWII, the Germans ordered that American officers should not be killed but rather be allowed to mislead the troops.  It has been said that when the Germans would aim to kill the higher officers, then the Americans could start to improvise.  So, if there are lower ranked troops with sufficient intellectual autonomy, the danger was that when the hierarch of the hive mind was killed, the Americans would then improvise something that the Germans would not be familiar with.  I have read that some American men have an extra part of the brain that allows that.  But they would not be selected to be the officers often as they do not easily comply with strict orders.

It is my notion that the American experience would have promoted the breeding of such men as opportunity and challenge existed here.  In Europe, I expect that such men would be culled out for being disobedient.

More Coffee...............

I ran into an interesting video this morning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V21dm9Fuwk
Quote:

I am going to pause to listen to it again....................

I am very pleased that she seeks to understand and that she does have quite a lot of understanding.

Men's sexuality is their own.  But the government has been bent to play pimp for those who want to turn it into a sex industry.  I suppose that private enterprise often has value but, where it facilitates Royal thinking, and the damaging of the society, it has gone too far.

The women who she mentions only understand reality from their own shallow self-serving desires, which are actually perverted.

Unfortunately, things that are desired are manipulated by the succubus, by soliciting a pimping function from an incubus.  It is much like the drug trade.

First you find out what is desirable.
Then you introduce it.
Then you withhold it.
Then you charge for it.
And you want to cripple the individual so as to be better able to exploit them.

We are in this stage where the product offered is not satisfactory, but the product desired is to be withheld.

The purpose is to produce an unsatisfied addiction.  Male happiness would be the very last thing they would desire.

I have seen conversation that points to London for the drug trade.  Opium Wars, American drug problems expanding in the 60's.
Royal thinking is that it is just fine for cause decay, and to feed off of it.  Damage the lesser people and they will be easier to exploit.

You will find, i believe that the purpose of the current campaign against male sexuality, is to link male sexual satisfaction to the extraction of money and power.

I understand that when the government decided to figure out how to regulate this on the internet, they solicited advice from Priests, Feminists, and Pornographers.

Ha Ha, a Priest is the function of a pimp as to say who and how sex may occur.  The Feminist has a desire to be satisfied endlessly, and a pornographer is a part of this.

So, instead of natural and voluntary depictions on the internet, those were smothered, and deviant and unhealthy things to be promoted for the extraction of money and power.

At any rate I need to move on to more useful things today.  So, my summary is "Hands Off!".  It is not yours and should not be yours.  Get a job and do some useful work!

Stop assisting an unhealthy association of law enforcement with control of male sexuality to extract money and wealth.

I am as an old man who has little true interest in such things anymore.  This was a postmortem of sorts.

I am very uninterested for the most part, but I hate irrational bumbling around while the ship is on fire.

And I am happier for it being able to dissociate myself again from the problem.

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