New Mars Forums

Yes, what I suggested is contingent on there being large amounts of ice and very little CO2.
https://www.snexplores.org/article/ice- … tion-water
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So we have a bit of a logic tree.

If Ice and No CO2, then lift H20 to Moon orbit refill station, and bring Carbon to Lunar orbit.  (Starship needs Methane).

If Ice and CO2 (Dry Ice) on the Moon, make O2 and Methane and bring to orbit of the Moon to refill Starship.

An alternative would be to have a Hydro-Lox Booster that might give Starship a kick from the Moon.

We need to have facts about available resources as I know you have always maintained.

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Robots that can pick fruit cause me to wonder about apple orchard/grasslands for land that goes feral.

A sort of savannah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspen_parkland
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Managed for fruit trees and perhaps something like tall grass prairie.

So, this would be no till, and robots would keep it from becoming overrun with brush.  So they could do weeding.  Fruits from trees could be harvested by robots in bucket lifts or the equivalent.

The "Grass" could be harvested as well.  Possibly some of it subjected to pyrolysis to produce hydrocarbons.

Berry Pickers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygazi3wzCnc
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They said that 1 robot could do the work of 25 human workers.

A upper body of a humanoid robot on a hydraulic lift might do the fruit picking and the pruning.  It could probably work all day and night as it would likely have infrared/low light vision.

While Apples might be a good start, other food bearing trees might be wanted.

A groomed savannah might be a better place to raise children than an inner city.

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A way to power desalination on the ocean floors could be wave power: https://symphonywavepower.nl/

The desalination process done with: https://genviss.in/deep-sea-desalinatio … gy-future/
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I believe that this method is less likely to create a toxic brine concentration, so will do much less damage to the environment than previous methods of desalination.

So, at least the continental shelfs might support this, and water sent to shore might be sent by vapor tubes to high mountain passes in eastern California, and condensed into water to let fall into the Great Basin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_Nevada
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Or maybe the vapor tubes could pass south of those mountains.

Of course you could pump water but that is a pretty big task.

A vapor tube could have an internal pressure low enough that solar energy could easily keep the steam from condensing.  You would need a pumping device to pull the low pressure steam out of the vapor tube at the termination point inside the Great Basin.  This could be solar powered as well and only function when the sun shined.

The low pressure steam might be thin, but of a very high velocity to increase throughput.

But if you wanted to do high pressure hot steam that might be an option as well.

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I have run across an idea for orbital recycling that is specific to the Moon and for me at least, something new.  It is a form of hard crash delivery of scrap to the Moon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdYoVM_y6Bs
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This brings up some interesting ideas.  What about the ISS?  Could it be pushed to a higher orbit and then later, when Starship is developed better could the ISS be crashed into a Moon crater?  Yes, there will be international issues, but salvage might be international in character.

That is a lot of processed material, and I don't think it necessarily makes sense to push it into the atmosphere.

A query says 420 to 450 tons.

Of course, until a Starship was ready you would have to keep it from breaking apart in a higher orbit.

Other space junk concepts like Neumann Drive and Magdrive might work in conjunction with this concept.

This opens some other options as well.  They mention sending Falcon 9 upper stages.  I would wonder if they could refill those with Starship in LEO, and send them on their own, perhaps with a cargo of copper?

I would also venture that it might make sense to lift Falcon 9 2nd Stages to LEO using Starship.  Refuel them at a special station and send them to the Moon.  The materials of them are valuable.  They might deliver something to the Moon orbit prior to crashing?

Perhaps the 2nd Stage could be upsized to fit into a Starship Payload bay?

Yes, Merlin Engines, with a different fuel, but one that may not boil of as much.  Imagine sending super sized Falcon 9 2nd stages to Moon orbits, using Neumann Drive or Magdrive.  Refilling them in Lunar Orbit and using them as landers.  Maybe hard landers with stuff like Copper.

But perhaps SpaceX could make a Aluminum 3rd stage for the Starship system that might use old raptor engines.

Copper is a material hard to get on the Moon.  And they have explained the value of Aluminum.

The future competitor Neutron upper stage could be a similar story.

So, I have previously suggested that Starship could do the Expendable/Not-Really option where an "Expendable", Starship could be made into space station materials or propellants for Neumann Drive or Magdrive.

This might go beyond that.  However Starship is largely Stainless Steel with some copper.  Not as valuable perhaps as Aluminum on the Moon.

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I am interested at looking further at hypersaline lakes as a feeder process for possible tunnel systems.

It may be that eventually hypersaline lakes might be created on Mars, and those could contribute to human survival on both worlds.

Where I have been speculating on the possibility that Macro-Algae may be able to live in the dark and grow very well like microalgae and yeast do, I can backtrack to that microalgae can grow well in suitable water that is infused with chemicals like Oxygen and Acetate.

I caught my copilot giving an apparent falsehood.  I asked "Do Plastics tolerate salt water?".
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But my memory was that they do generally tolerate all salts rather well, and I think I have a reconfirmation of that.
https://www.corzan.com/en-us/blog/how-w … r-seawater
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In a salt environment, I would expect that U.V. light might damage plastics, so my intention is to not expose them to the U.V. light more than necessary.

From post #80 we can have another look at this: https://www.startupselfie.net/2023/10/0 … -tracking/  Quote:

This thing needs floats, but I know where I discovered that fresh water could float on salt water.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_(hydrology)
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So, the solar structure could float on bags of fresh water, but I think I would prefer sea water simulant.  In the deserts you typically get either excessively Briney water or fresh water.

But putting the bags below the solar apparatus, we cut down the UV hitting the plastic.  You can also put some protective sheets of materials over the bags as well to reduce that to perhaps zero.

It is thought that the use of Oxygen and Acetate is many times more efficient than is natural photosynthesis, so we would opt for that.

So, our floats will have anything from fresh to almost 2x salt, sea water in them.  More likely a simulation of sea or brackish water.

The whole assembly is sun following as for daily rotation and if desired the solar panels have individual single axis up-down sun following functions.

We may hope to grow organisms inside of the liquid floats:
https://source.washu.edu/2024/10/how-to … out-light/

My recollection is that algae are about 4 times as efficient with acetate than normal growth???  That has uncomfortable wiggle room, but I will just say that apparently you could grow algae effectively with Oxygen and Acetate.

As I have said before, I am not at all certain that macro-algae can grow in such conditions, but I suspect it can.  Or eventually means may be found to make it compatible.

While fish farming is interesting, growing vegetables from Seaweeds, is likely more efficient.  I am not a vegetarian, but I think that over time better vegetables might be developed that will support large brain size better than the ones we have now do.  Also vegetables tend to have toxins, so it might be good to get rid of those.

Some of these, might grow in the environment inside the bags: https://www.nutritionadvance.com/sea-vegetables/
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A freshwater environment might also be tried, for something like Hydrilla, but I am not certain that current strains of Hydrilla can grow entirely without light.  So, if might be that some light might be provided, a minimum necessary amount perhaps.

https://www.eattheweeds.com/hydrilla/
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With the water covered, the cooling effects of the water may be reduced.  That cooling may enhance solar panel performance.  But if you combine heat exchangers and solar panels into one structure, then you may actively cool the solar panels during the day.  And at night you may actively cool the water in the bags.  You may coat the reverse side of the solar panels which are sun tracking to radiate heat efficiently at night.

https://spicoatings.com/super-therm-and … echnology/
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An note that you could involve a heat pump system if you liked.

But you also have to protect from freezing situations that might occur.

If these machines work then we now have a way to turn saline inland waters into energy productive and food productive assets.

And the devices will reduce evaporation, so these bodies of water might be made to swell up to larger sizes.  If you doubled the size of the Salton Sea, then you would reduce the salt level down to about that of sea salt.  (Of course, then you have to reduce the salt in your liquid floats).

So, why not increase the size of the Salton Sea, the Great Salt Lake, The Dead Sea, and the Arol Sea?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea

The amount of solar power would be enormous, and the possible agricultural produce may be very valuable.

Yes, you then need lots of materials, including plastics, but that gives the petroleum industry an alternate market.

As for wild life, there would still be open water.  Wild life has already be altered by dry land farming anyway, which dries up the lakes.

Can you make more inland seas?  I think so, impoundments may be profitable in depressions.

If you lower the evaporation rate sufficiently it may be worth it, for the solar power and the food.

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This is an addition ot the just prior post.

The question of Mega Algae.  Can they also grow on Oxygen and Acetate?  Some of them are used as food.
https://iere.org/what-algae-can-be-eaten/
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Also it may be possible that vascular plants such as Duckweed and Hydrilla, might be grown with little or no light.

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So, I have decided to do some idiot checking on the recent notions here.

The Boring Company may get up to doing 1 mile of tunnel per week.  That is a 12-foot tunnel, I believe.  It is designed to do it's tunnel about 30 feet underground.

If that is true then one machine could perhaps do a 50-mile loop in one year.

The cost would be significant, so the value has to also be significant.  A question is, for tunnel doing minor repairs over time, how long can it remain functional?  I presume for centuries.

We also have to factor in Verbal and Violent Idiot Savants, as they might intentionally do damage to it.

At this time, I am imagining the water level as being halfway to the top.  I am not thinking so much of circulating the water but circulating the air within it.  But flowing water in it would not be prohibited.

In order to cool a data center, I am imagining an air fed heat pump, where heat is dumped into the air of the loop.

In order to use and limit the level of heat in the loop, I am imagining heat pumps that pull heat out of the air of the loop.

In order to limit the heat internal to the loop, it would be preferred to use the extracted heat for a gainful purpose, but some situations could provide dumping heat into the atmosphere.  For instance, the heat pump might do that when the sun shines, or you might even circulate night air though the loop, but that would cause evaporation as well, so you would have some water losses.

Useful uses of the Heat:
-Heating for dwellings.
-Industrial Heat.

A feature of extracting heat from the air of the loop would be that you could condense water from that air and so dry the air out.
The condensed water could have a value.  Of course, if you extract water then you have to make that water up.  But the makeup water could be of marginal value.

-Grey Water?  (If you use the condensate for a washing process then you might return that water to the loop).
-Sea Water?   (Brine accumulation would have to be extracted out of the system).
-River Water? (Does not have to be potable).

Depending on the toxicity of the environment you could perform some sort of aquiculture in the water of the Loop.

For instance, Oxygen and Acetate might grow yeast or Algae.  That could feed some useful process.

The loop could support water transportation.  Even if the water were boiling or sub-freezing (Brine), but of course extreme temperatures would prohibit aquiculture.  Obviously extreme conditions would prohibit humans in the loop as well.  For instance, boiling water, could allow robots to function in the loop.

It is possible that the watercraft might "Sail" on the air currents imposed in the loop.  Or, perhaps more likely robots could drop battery replacements into the tugs at useful intervals, taking the expended battery to be recharged.

Motorized wheels could contact the walls or ceiling to propel the watercraft using electric motors.

So, I think that the concept may have merit and could possibly be useful on Mars someday.

I think that it is not totally stupid.

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In support of the just previous post, I have this material:

Relating to the two prior posts about the Salton Sea: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zRFB-xUEcU"
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One thing that could be done with salt is drop it to the bottom of the ocean.  Possibly damaging the bottom environment.

Perhaps not practical.  Imagine a "Salt wheel" like a water wheel.

If you could do it, by some more practical means, extracting the salt from the depression may be energy positive or at least energy assisted.

If it could be done where brine or salt falling down is gradually mixed with sea water, perhaps on exit the exiting mix would be tolerable to sea life.

A very complex thing to do though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qattara_Depression
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Imagine floating solar panels over all of it.

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OK, the Saton Sea again: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technol … i-AA1R4V1s  Quote:

OK, first off, salt corrodes, but it also helps things to float.

https://www.startupselfie.net/2023/10/0 … -tracking/
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For the "Greens".  Suppose you made floats out of recycle plastics.  Plastics are fairly stable in salt water, I read, and anyway the Salton Sea is toxic now.

But you might be able to improve the lake by reducing evaporation.  These floating islands would do that and generate power.

In actuality, if the environment were not too obnoxious, you could have house boats alongside of these, as they do provide power, and it might be hoped to revive the waters anyway.

If you still the waves with this, then it is possible that you could cause a layer of fresher water to float on top of the more salty bottom water.

But you will have to spank the farmers, if they want to take the extra water conserved.

As it happens it made sense to make the aqueduct to take Colorado River water in the last century.  But now, it is kind of stupid to do dry land farming with the river water.  If you can expand the lake and put solar power on top of it, you probably could do a bit of aquiculture, as not all the light would be absorbed by the solar panels.

A possibly sensible thing to do would be to distill fresh water from the bine, then use it.  (Not for dry land farming!), and then partially improve the water and release into to float on top of the brine of the lake.  Microbes in the water would likely finish improving the water.
But you would not want too many nutrients in the water.

I would be curios if salt could be encapsulated as a solid into plastic containers and placed on the bottom of the lake.

As I have said before, I think that a more sensible solution long term would be to dig a canal though Mexico and conduct sea water into the lake generating electricity from turbines, then pumping water back out when the solar energy was productive. 

A sort of artificial tide for the lake.  But you would not want to pump brine that is too salty out to the gulf of California.

Why would Mexico want this?  Well, a base load power supply.  Also, perhaps a canal system could even carry freight, such as solid salt to dump out in the pacific at some point.

Quite a lot of people of Mexican descent live in the SW USA anyway, so maybe it is not a wrong plan for them.

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Returning to Synthetic Gravity Machines on the Moon: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 34#p235634
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Query: "Minimum diameter for Artificial Gravity?"
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The same query on my phone suggested 30 meters minimum to produce .6 g, and 224 meters for 1 g with reasonable comfort.

Where my drawing above suggests burial in regolith, this morning instead, I am curious about placing a synthetic gravity machine into a Lunar Lava Tube.

Query: "Size of Lunar Lava Tubes?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_lava_tube
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So, it looks like they could host synthetic gravity machines of some type.

But of course, that will be for a cost.

Obviously step 1 is to put adult humans and other test organisms into the natural gravity of the Moon for a prolonged time and find out how well they do.  Then as may be justified, perhaps to experiment with some artificial gravity.

And even though I have suggested an air flow path to artificial gravity, I am very open to anything that might work for a good price.

So, in part I am partially replacing the concept of artificial gravity in microgravity and more promoting artificial gravity in Lunar gravity.

To get at a resource then you might not have a nearby artificial gravity.  But perhaps depending to some extent on robots you would move useful resources to lava tubes, where you could have various functions.

Also in the Lava Tubes could be factories and Gardens.

But I do wonder about farming inside of dark craters at the poles.  These may have some protection from solar radiation.  But of course you would need to divert sunlight to shine on such a structure.  So, you could have glass greenhouses on the Moon if you provided some protections.

Back to the synthetic gravity machines, I think it might make sense to have people wear heavy things, like perhaps a slightly weighted helmet, perhaps resembling an American Football Helmet.  This might be helpful for balance issues, and to compensate for gravity less than 1 g.  And then clothing with Aluminum or plastic weights inside of it?  Maybe giving just, a little extra radiation protection for if you are not in a lava tube.

But you would not want to increase your inertia too much.

But don't get me wrong.  I am enthusiastic about things like those proposed by https://www.vastspace.com/ as well.

The question is open as to how many people might eventually live on the Moon.  I am sure that practice on the Moon will give indications over time.

If it is a large number then certain things likely will need import, such as Nitrogen/Ammonia.

But if the Moon can be of value to support data centers, then that could be paid for by giving a valuable service.

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I grew up in the tail end of something not quite that bad.

In a revulsion to that however, it might be possible to overreact.

You need to avoid green pseudo-paganism.  (Nature worship).

A process control can push too far one way and then oscillate too far in the opposite direction.

The craving for sunlight indulgence, seems sensible to me, even if damaging.  Working in blue light, miserable, no surprise that they might overdo the correction to it.

Now, we believe that red light is beneficial to health, and I believe probably even the very pale should have just a bit of UV from time to time.

So, now we have the opportunity to get the process control better controlled to a more beneficial set point.

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The danger of abandonment of Industrious behaviors for Pseudo-Paganism, is to give excessive advantage to the Verbal and Violent types, damaging the gene pool as a consequence.  (That is my suspicion).

One fun British thing has been "Harry Potter".  The witches are verbal over the work of hands, and even violent as they do at times kill each other.  But the hands and eyes, where are they?

The witches speak words, and the material universe grants them benefits.  Not a good teaching for children, in my opinion.

(But lots of fun).

I believe that the strength of the Roman Empire and those like it was that they understood that certain agricultural areas were worth the conquest.  They did not go too far north, as I think that the profit margin was not that good, but the financial burden was excessive to subordinate the northern populations.

It is curious that these areas were overrun by the farmer populations from Anatolia, who would not have spoken Indo-European languages.

But in time the peoples from the Steppes imposed their languages on them.

I think the possible reason was that when the farmers overran/displaced/absorbed the hunter-gatherers, they set up their hierarchy of domesticated witches over the common people.

Here I am taking liberty to use the word "Witch" to describe people who use verbiage and violence to hold the hands and eyes as captive servants.  Domesticated is used by me to suggest that at least they have some form of moral structure.

But I think that good farmland that allows Hierarchy of this sort, eventually overproduces "Witches", and underproduces the people of hands and eyes.  And it then becomes vulnerable to overthrow.

We have a line of such cities, in the "West" as conceived by the Romans.  Dublin<>London<>Paris<>Rome<>Athens<>Egypt.  These things were near to the concept of what the Romans might have considered worth the trouble.  They never did directly get to Ireland.

But perhaps the soils thin, and the witches overproduce their kind at the expense of useful workers.

South Britain attracted the Romans but was eventually considered more trouble than it was worth.

The Britain and Ireland were about as good as Italy in some ways.  I think that Iodine from the Seas may have been favorable to nutrition.

The North does not coddle idiot witches as much as does England. 

Here is the developing problem between the USA and the UK.  I see that it may be that the Idiots are bringing in witches from other religions to do killings for them.

Here in the USA, we have found a way to connect the south to the north.  It works quite well.

I would advise your rulers to be careful where they wave their magic wand.  It better not point at us.

Otherwise, you guys should have great possibilities for a much better future.

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