New Mars Forums

Warning! I just added ", Mega Structures" to the topic Title.
I changed it to "Index» Terraformation» Solar Reflections from Orbits to a Worlds Dark Spots, Mega Structures"

This is to cover the "Off Topic" ploy usage.

Agreed Calliban.  I think over time there will be orbital "Filling Stations" which will be more than just Depots.  Certain services such as repairs and feature alterations might be available there.  So, yes high value parts such as engines could be removed for return from orbit, or swapped with other features.  For instance, after initial launch a "High-Starship" may not need 6-9 raptor engines to do its work.

A "Filling Station" near LEO, and one or two between that and the Moon make sense to me.  Then perhaps a "Filling Station" proximate to the Moon.

If the UK provides an upgraded MagDrive and Australia provides an upgraded Neumann Drive those can use space junk sourced propellants.  They could bring precursors for liquid propellants to the filling stations.  They might bring water and CO2, or maybe Methane Oxygen, and Hydrogen.

So, a "High-Starship" might refill perhaps 4 times between Lower Earth Orbit and some kind of Moon orbit.  This should reduce liquid fuel consumptions.

If SpaceX can develop some kind of Mass Driver to get things off of the Moon, it is possible that that could include Oxygen.

But I think a Hydro-Lox tanker based on the 2nd stages of Stoke Space, or Blue Origin may do.

So, the Oxygen for the filling stations could be sourced from both the Earth and Moon.  Possibly Hydrogen as well.

Ending Pending

(th) probed me about mirrors and references: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 00#p235500

I recall reading a Sci Fi book where a character perhaps named "Ajax", had a homestead in Canada which was lighted by mirrors.  So, the concept is not very new.

It seems that the startup will be very humble in its initial efforts.  Low Earth orbit devices with limited capability.

But ultimately a mirror might be expected to reflect maybe 80% of the light that impinges on it, and redirection may be possible.  If it were a flat mirror with perfect flatness, the light would perhaps not expand that much.  For instance, the value of 1.5 AU would make an ideally placed Mars (At 1.5 AU), receive light attenuated by 1/2 due to spread over distance.  But if the whole beam hit Mars, then Mars would get the ~80% increase in lighting for the surface area that the light impinged on.

Light hitting a mirror at geosynchronous would have to come back from that mirror to the Earth at some location so the spread would be about 2x the distance to geosynchronous, presuming the mirror is orbitally behind but not occulted by the Earth.  So, far less than how much it would spread in going to Mars.  So, just for giggles let's say a bit less than ~80%.

As far as levering this thing to point accurately, I guess mount it on a large mass or use gyroscopes.

If you wanted light intensities > ~80% then you could overlap the output of 2 mirrors to the same location and get ~>160% the light of noontime, more or less.

If you wanted to focus the mirror, I suspect that it can be done.

One thing I could annoy you with would be putting mirrors on most of the near side of the Moon and having them on actuators so that they could focus on the Earth.  I got an honored member here to insinuate I was an idiot when I last suggested that.

Mirrors would perhaps be more practical at first to power solar satellites, and for those Satellites to beam infrared lasers to other equipment in orbit such other Satellites and maybe electric driven spacecraft such as Ion propulsion.

The value of beamed power is that a spacecraft can have a "Tuned" solar panel that is tuned for a particular wavelength of light.  Delivery efficiency might be about 60%.  This then allows a spacecraft to have a power supply of a lesser inertia.  The provider being massive sends the power and the receiver does not have to propel the sender.

One side property of mirrors in space would be to be able to occult the Earth.  If they pass between the Earth and the Sun, they may lessen the amount of sunlight that the Earth receives at one location.  If that were to be sent to another location on Earth, then that does not really warm the Earth.  If the energy from the mirror is used to power things in orbit, then the Earth is cooled.

Now there is the question of future space junk.  I don't think we will be dumping junk into the atmosphere soon but will be recycling it.  As recycled it could be made into many things, and perhaps mirrors.

Yes astronomy will suffer, but we will have to see them get many more and bigger space telescopes as compensation.

This little company wants to attempt mirrors in space.  Who am I to say no?  And in the first post my point was the person does not own space and does not own people and especially does not own me.  If you peer into the intentions of leftist people you will come to understand that they intend to own the people, and they imagine themselves as the enlightened and worthy ones who shall own us and all the products we might produce.

Mirrors could certainly be of value on the Moon and for Mars.  So, I don't mind a little practice with them.

Here is something that is more likely sooner:  "Elon's Ingenious AI Satellites: Powering Earth FROM SPACE?"

I can suspect that the above query is already being twisted to emphasize astronomers' concerns, and the related issue of global warming.

That is not what I want to discuss!  High probability this is Anti-Elon Leftist guidance.

Modified the query: "Description, Elon's Ingenious AI Satellites: Powering Earth FROM SPACE? 1d ago,"

Impossible!  The discussion I want to have is about data centers in space and these verbal idiots are determined to have the conversation about global warming.

Anyway because of them I cannot get that video.  I will just have to say it myself.  The Satellite network in space will draw power from the sun and so then not draw power from the Earth's grids (Power Plants).

This inevitably will lead to space junk.  Rather than dumping it into atmosphere, it will need to be harvested and recycled.  Not all of it could be used for original purposes, and perhaps some could be made into mirrors or other things.

Elon Musk has proposed eventually making satellites on the Moon and launching them with Mass drivers.  Again, after being done with their original purpose, the mass can be repurposed again and again.

Mirrors for the Earth could be created in certain instances.

I wonder (th) did you read any of the other posts in this topic before you challenged the legitimacy of the creation of this topic?

Such as how to increase food production?

But don't worry, none of us do everything perfect all the time.  Certainly not me.

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I choose not to think of Earth or Mars, but rather, expansion into the solar system when circumstances make it viable.

Before the North Polar ice cap might be colonized, then Korolev might be done: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)  Image Quote:

At a similar time then a small part of Hellas might be done: https://www.humanmars.net/2019/04/map-o … water.html  Image Quote:
At about 60 degrees longitude and south of 30 degrees latitude, part of Hellas shows hope of buried water ice.
I have prepared a method for a Hellas without ground ice but it seems there may be some ground ice in places.

And the rift valley show hope, between 90 degrees and 60 degrees longitude and just south of 0 degrees latitude.
Whttps://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/astronomers-discover-hidden-water-in-the-red-planets-grand-canyon-180979267/e have reason to believe that there are significant ice deposits in "Candor Chaos".  Quote:

Image Quote:

This topic is mostly about orbital mirrors adding light to areas of a world that may benefit from it.  These may do.

I expect such a orbital system and the things that support it to primarily be made of materials from Phobos and Deimos.

While Candor Chaos might do well with solar panels that are relatively flat to the surface, I intend that a wedge type solar panels might be used in both Korolev and Hellas.

Some experiments have been done on Earth, with Bifacial solar panels.  A wedge solar panel system simply opens one end of the structure.

From post #29:

By rotating the structures 180 degrees we can make them suitable for Korolev Crater.

Possibly to cover the entire ice mass of the crater.  The solar panels could be refrigerated using heat pumps running directly from the electric power of the solar panels.  The excess heat may be put to other services such as greenhouses, and artificial lakes.

While naturally Korolev would have very long dark winters, with orbital mirrors this does not have to be so.

But I see the orbital structures made of Phobos and Deimos being more important.  The deltaV of them is less to be in communion with Earth/Moon than the surface of Mars is.

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The Saudi seem to be involved with an interesting process for cooling solar panels.

https://www.sustainability-times.com/en … gy-output/  Quote:

Copilot Search:

From post #29:

So, we have two methods to collect moisture from the Mars atmosphere, and in one case it may increase the output and longevity of solar panels.

The salt bed I suggested needs an independent robot to collect moisture from the salt periodically.  However, the Saudi method with the moisture collector behind the solar panels, then releases moisture on the heating of the solar panels, and that moisture could be automatically collected at the tops of the solar panels.

Now then a Mars tree could do various manipulations.

It could split the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen and release them to atmosphere.  The Hydrogen would be a greenhouse gas but would rapidly leave the atmosphere.

Or you could make hydrocarbons and Oxygen (Also using CO2) and feed it to microbes.  Mushrooms could grow on the residue of bacteria.
The organic process would probably leak greenhouse gasses by intention or as a natural imperfection of a process.

So, these trees could in fact produce product, Algae, Yeast, Mushrooms perhaps.  Also, electricity also Methane could be created, and Oxygen created.

And it should be reminded that water is to be produced as well, so humans could live near these "Forests".  The "Forests" can be at very low altitudes like Hellas and the Northern plains.  These places provide relatively better radiation protections.

Electrical conductors and pipelines could be involved in networking these outputs to a useful purpose.

So, it would make a great deal of sense to use mirrors in orbit to add more photons to the processes of these "Trees".

The trees will still need robot tenders, to clean dust off of the solar cells and for other purposes.

So, this might be a pretty useful component of a method to make Mars to be alive and reasonably productive.

Ending Pending

I would hope to have "Mars Trees" eventually wherever temporary ice caps form.  The vertical walls might thaw much sooner than the ground that they are on so this might allow an early spring thaw.  Of course, the structures will have to endure a Martian winter with CO2 condensate perhaps.

We could hasten the thaw of the temporary ice caps with orbital mirrors.  We would be shining light onto vertical solar panels mounted on the "Mars Trees".

As for the South and North Ice caps, I suggest only warming the south cap to vaporize the permanent CO2 ice cap content.

As for the North I would want to try to melt a little sea all the way around that North ice cap.

Copilot Search:

https://astrobiology.com/2025/03/marss- … neath.html
Quote:

So, I am hoping for direct melting under ice.  That is you might create an aquifer in the ice cap by bombarding it with microwave energy, and sunlight from mirrors.  Rivers can flow on Mars if they are ice covered.

So, I hope to produce a liquid water sea ringed in the low area around the ice cap.  The Sea will be ice covered, but may support life under the ice.

So, indeed I intend to promote the idea of Mirrors made from Phobos and Deimos, to assist in making Mars more habitable.

Keep in mind that in the deep winter of Mars mirrors will be melting this ice, not just in the summer.

As for evaporation, it has no place to go but onto one of the ice caps.

Ending Pending

This topic has a multiplanetary range, but ultimately it is more about being able to redirect energy to suit human desires than anything.

In post #11, I mentioned making wind breaks to hang solar panels on, in Hellas.

Elsewhere (th) is working on "Trees" for Mars: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11237

This is fine as we may get multiple solutions.

I start with bulk materials from Mars in the case of Mars:

Quote:

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https://www.zmescience.com/science/mars-brick-is-cool/
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Image Quote:

So, I would be thinking of a form of metal perhaps into which you could compact Mars soil to make walls to serve as the "Trunks" of "Trees".

https://happho.com/rammed-earth-construction-house/
Image Quote:

The metal form would be reusable.

My preferred pattern at this time is two walls at a possible (???) degrees of attachment of one end of each wall.

This may, among other things serve as a "Wind Fence" and may somewhat prohibit "Dust Devils".

Dust collected may be converted to something else that will not blow in the wind.

The "Salt Pad" is to be in the shade almost always, and is intended to be cold and to collect moisture.

Robots can microwave it to release water vapor, and a vacuum can collect and condense it into water.

I you have water, and CO2 and Nitrogen, and electricity from sunlight then you can synthesize both a fuel and Oxygen to feed microbes with.

By filling Hellas or other areas with such "Trees" we are increasing the surface area of Hellas, and then so dividing the sunlight.  While the solar panels may be warm when illuminated, they may have offsets to allow air to pass behind them.  The walls of the trees will tend to be cold.

So, the wind break effect and the coldness of the air coming from the walls, may tend to discourage dust devils.  By arraigning that and by collecting the dust into larger objects we may discourage Global Dust Storms.

Mars Global Dust Storms tend to erupt once every 3 Martian summers, I believe.

So, for at least 2 out of the 3 summers we can shine light on the "Trees" in Hellas from orbit.  In the other seasons we can do that as well.
This should increase productivity.  But of course the goal is to quell Global Dust Storms, so this has to be moderated carefully to avoid those.

I think that the other factor of Mars Global Dust Storm would be a cold Mars Winter in the North Hemisphere.

Using mirrors we can warm up the North polar areas to inhibit that factor.  While doing that we can also do "Mars Trees", or even melt some water from the North Ice cap.

Ending Pending

This is a bit old and certainty speculative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-SY9hJtIYY
Quote:

Someone named Gary is mentioned.

If it is like this then it would be a cousin to Stoke Space 2nd stage.

I would like that. 

If Starship and "Jarvis", and Stoke Space are all a little different, then they may each be able to be good at different things.

We are very lucky if we get 3 or more fully reusable options that are "Friendlies".  (Sort of Western).

My opinion is that they should enlarge the base, so that the thrusters will be exposed during launch and so that the size of the heat shield can be larger.  But I am not a great source of wisdom on this things.  I just think that they may be able to use the 2nd stage thrusters during the flight up before separation from the 1st stage, and I hope that could reduce gravity losses.  Hopefully it would not burn the 1st stage too much.

Ending Peiding

Good Points Calliban.  There is certainly a lot of Moon and Mars to get water from and to make "Bricks" from.

I think that for both worlds, the story of the abundance of water keeps expanding.

So, it may be that there will be enough water to last, until a sort of Von Neumann process can be placed into the solar system.

Where that sort of thing speculates on a machine that seeks to replicate itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_machine

We could imagine a collection of machines, not that much smarter than a bee's hive (More or Less) that would devote its interests in bringing volatile materials to dry worlds, and to maintain themselves.  The solar system has energy and materials and time.  If you put a semi-intelligent manipulative machine structure to work, it might dedicate itself to more or less irrigating our Moon.

But for now, there may be enough materials in the Moon to help bootstrap humans and their machines into the solar system.

Ending Pending

One thing I forgot to include is salt on the Moon.

As usual my phone search gave much more than my computer search, until I used phrases from the phone search:

https://www.sciencealert.com/change-5-m … -moon-soil
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Sodium and Potassium Salts have been mentioned as a sort of salt, but also in the atmosphere of Moon: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sci … 1.4866.675
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https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180981906/
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Some stories indicate that the beads came from volcanism, and some stories say it is beads from impacts that make craters.

So, here is the Question:  "Could we manufacture the salts and beads, and put them under the shade of solar panels to collect water?"  This is to collect water that moves horizontally with the day/night cycle.  Then to extract the water and then restore the collector device.

Ending Pending

Because in part building structures in space may rely on materials from the Moon, Mars and other worlds I will put this here: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC Quote:

Getting basic material from fine regolith's could be enhanced by improved Electrolysis.

My reading is that the soil of Mars has about 2% water.
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/167 … sity-rover
Quote:

So, it is fine if you want to mine ice on Mars and it is local to where you are.  But I believe that ~2/3rds of does not seem to have buried ice.

So, lets say you want to process regolith to get various things out of it such as water, Iron, Hydrogen, Oxygen and other special chemicals that may only be local to a "Ice-Free" area.  Then this may be a thing for you.

Once you initially had water, you could wash salts out of the fine regolith and make use of them.  Next you could dry the fine regolith and subject it to pyrolysis with Hydrogen to reduce it.  Perhaps you only seek Iron and slag, maybe you will extract other things from the slag.

Now you have extracted Iron and Oxygen from it.  And I presume what trace substances you wanted, that it contained.

The salts that you did not have a use for could be added back to the regolith to again collect water from the atmosphere.

The Moon is even more interesting to me in this regard:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_water
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Because there is international propaganda involved I will not seek references.  But the picture I have is that glass beads can temporarily store Hydrogen bearing compounds like OH and H20.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=%0A%0A%0A … orm=IPRV10
Quote:

As I can visualize it there is a vertical water input which is of the solar wind and hydrated impactors.

But there is a horizontal water vapor flow where the day night cycles have an influence.

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/pia1222 … -the-moon/
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Quote:

So, rather than simple strip-mining of the surface of the Moon can we leave a surface that will continue to absorb/adsorb Hydrogen bearing molecules.  Can be leave behind glass beads if they do that sort of work?

If this were the case, we could repeatedly harvest the water from such a created bed of glass beads.  This would mostly be "Horizontal Water".

The Moon would collect most of the "Vertical Water" and then share it about its surface, and the glass bead beds may continually collect the mobile water.  Then by some method the water could be extracted for human use.

Solar panels placed over these "Bead Beds" might serve a double life as sunshades, keeping the beads cooler during the Lunar Day, perhaps allowing them to collect more OH and H20.

Ending Pending

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsr8aILNzog
Quote:

I think it has potential, but they will need a filled depot, and I think a transport Dragon not inside the Starship that can do a human rated launch to LEO and then transfer the crew.

Pause...............

I think that there are a very large set of ways this sort of thing could be expanded to increase capabilities.

1) Iterations of Starship should become more capable.

2) Dragon capabilities could be expanded: https://www.space.com/spacex-dragon-iss … n-revealed
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3) Refilling may become possible on the Moon.
https://science.nasa.gov/moon/moon-water-and-ices/
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At the very least, even with just a little Hydrogen you could cook up Oxygen using regolith, pyrolysis, and electrolysis.  So, you could refill the Oxygen at least.

While it might be nice to have a polar base on the Moon one closer to the equator near minerals with water and a lava tube might be very desirable as well.

Lunar Orbital Space Stations could be supported as well.  Those might be supported by Starships that have heat shields and flaps.  I approve of the goals of the NASA polar orbital space station, which are running robots remotely on the Moon and also working with electric space drives.

Let me suppose a future mission to the Moon:

Ending Pending

I am interested in fractional space catapults.

That is I do not seek one that will shoot from the Moon all the way to LEO, but which might give a portion of that need.

And at this point I am thinking about a combinational method.

I am looking at the Atlatl and the Catapult, and maglev trains, and TARS.  All working together to launch spacecraft.

atlatl (pronounced /ˈætlætəl): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower

Catapult: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catapult

Maglev Train: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev

T.A.R.S. (Very modified): https://sciencereader.com/a-new-interst … d-t-a-r-s/

>>>

These devices can store and release energy.  In the case of Maglev Train, batteries probably in use to store.

T.A.R.S. as I modify it is a tether system with mass added to store energy in intertie between launches.

Both types, Rotavator or Skyhook may have their uses in different situations.

In order to be pompous, I will introduce the "OMEGA RINGS".  This may be suitable to a Rotavator device.

I will make a drawing:  Pause...............

Keep in mind that this is new puzzling so do not expect final forms:

That would be a Rotavator foundation.  Before I was considering water tanks for T.A.R.S. but now I am supposing that various things could be attached to this frame, adding inertia, such as Data Centers, and protective radiators with fluids in them, such as water.

Each ring includes a Maglev Track. Even if that is heavy consider that heavy has inertia can store rotational energy.

This is unlike a mass driver for pushing out a payload.  That would require capacitors and coils fired in sequence. 

This would be Maglev Engines pushing a payload down the track towards the release point on the perimeter.  The spin of the Omega Rings, and the power of the Maglev Engine would provide speed to the payload.  This would be like a Maglev that runs down a mountain.

At the point of release, we may use a spring-loaded Catapult to provide an Atlatl effect adding even more energy to the toss.  The payload might be a spacecraft.

So, energy of spin of the Omega Rings, and the Maglev Battery powered, and then a spring-loaded release on a catapult.

The function of train track and it being the backbone may make things complicated as to how to attach various things like power plants, Data Centers, and Habitable Radiators, but I think it could be done.

Pause................

OK this only rotates once per orbit of Earth, so is not a rotavator:

Rather than one tether, many would be joined between rings.  So, if one gets severed repairs may be possible.

It would be very much longer than is depicted in this drawing.  I anticipate spacecraft landing on the "Base" and then being "Raised" or "Lowered" to one of the Omega Rings for relaunch.

These tethers may be electrodynamic so as to give propulsion against the Earth's magnetic field.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodynamic_tether

It will probably be relatively easy to attach many solar panels to this system.  However, it may be practical to transmit energy to the Omega Rings from the Base.

The intent is to conserve propellants, not to entirely replace them.

Multiple instances of these could make a "Space Ladder" for spaceships and payloads.

I think these may be quite useful in the asteroid belt as well, as the task is very much reduced to travel between two proximate asteroids.

Any ideas/comments are welcome.

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