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Posts #67 to #71 : https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 44#p221844

I think that I can have a better place here to understand what this could lead to:

If I understand what is practical and possible, the above can be of good uses.  It is likely not yet the best version of what I could be, but I see how it could be of good use.

It seems true to me that starting with Mars/Phobos/Deimos, this type of ship could be built, and sent off to achieve desirable things.  I think that in relatively short order it would also make sense to set up in the asteroid belt to do this as well.

It may be that at about 2.0 AU, in the asteroid belt, the materials to do this may exist.  If not, then you just go further out, and they are likely to exist.

These things then could be shipping themselves to the inner solar system, to places where they would have great value.  I have already mentioned the Earth/Moon.

I have also looked at the terrestrial crossing asteroids.  One method to deal with asteroids that may be a threat to an inhabited world, is to take control of them.  Having a mixture of needed materials would facilitate that.

Here is a list of Mars associated asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M … or_planets
Here is a list of Earth associated asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_E … _asteroids
Here is a list of Venus associated asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_V … or_planets
Here is a list of Mercury associated asteroids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M … or_planets

Generally, these are stony asteroids.  They may have a small amount of water in their regolith, perhaps implanted by the solar wind, but sending a package of materials including Carbon, Hydrogen, and perhaps some other items, could be very helpful for crews of humans and robots to set up shop in association with such asteroids.

This could give the ability to control the asteroids, if they are considered a hazard, or to appropriate them to a purpose if they seem useful for such a purpose.

Cycling spaceships are a possible option.

Also, I think it may be possible to capture materials from these asteroids to planets with atmospheres, in particular I have my eye on Venus for that.

Venus could become a source of organic chemicals such as Carbon, Nitrogen, even Hydrogen, presuming that the Hydrogen in the clouds is renewable, perhaps coming from the interior of the planet or the solar wind.  If that is achieved, then Venus could be a source of these chemicals to deliver to the Earth/Moon, and anything outward from Venus.  But this source from Venus, would be sent with the solar wind and photons being rather assistive for propulsions.

So, then probably the whole solar system opened up, at least out to Saturn.

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This is not Peter Zeihan, but really an source of information I have never heard of before:

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

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Well, then outward you go, as you desire and need.  The asteroid belt then the moons of Jupiter.

But if you start at the Moons of Jupiter with solar as your power source, then you probably want to boost the device to an orbit where it will find more sunlight.  That is not impossible.

If you have nuclear, then you could make the chemicals to do a boost of that sort.  And if you are mining the asteroid belt then you probably have the nuclear, as fission of fusion is not available.

Just for giggles, imagine a Super Heavy in the Jupiter system to toss things around.

In the Jupiter system we should find the organic chemicals the Moon and Earth orbits may desire.  Perhaps light on Nitrogen, but Venus should be able to supply Nitrogen.

It is my impression that in the sun's gravity well, the further out you go, the easier it will be to "Kick" a payload into brighter sunlight where it could self-propel.

So, then the Saturn System.  At that location you should have all the chemicals desired in bulk.

While some people are interested in comets, I would have a look at Centaurs.

But at some point, the needs of the inner worlds, will be saturated, probably before the need to go so far out.

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OK let's consider the Earth.  Let's suppose that due to global warming, we have to prop things up somehow, to squeak by and gradually bring things back.

What I will suggest is radical.

Let's put solar farms on the poles.  Send the power up by microwaves, and the bounce it back down to users.  Granted there will be two stages of loss, but this is to help the poles stay cold.

In the case of the Antarctic, if ports can be kept open then the idea would be to involve the coastal ecosystems the least amount possible.

In the case of Canada more or less you have some islands, and some floating ice.

In both cases you may have light bouncing off of reflective surfaces into your vertical solar panels.  Granted, this may bring heat to lower in the atmosphere, but it also will shade the surface ices and snows.

And to a small degree the equipment will be drawing heat off of the ice into the air at night and in the winters.

You may be able to cause glaciers to grow, as you may prohibit, melting and evaporation.

Perhaps if you could make the solar panels reflect unused light into the sky, instead of converting it to heat, you would gain cold.

Of course, each polar installation would only operate in parts of the year, but of course they are in opposing time slots.

I think these would need to be robotic so that they could step up on top of accumulating ice.  The Arctic ice flows might be particularly tricky.

I forgot about Greenland.  You could stop the surface melts of ice in the interior I may suppose.  Adding shade, and also transmitting significant portions of the sunlight as microwaves to relay satellites in the sky.

Tricky but possible, I think.  Easier in the land masses than on the sea ice.  I suppose that in the case of Greenland you might use some of the power locally to run robotic factories dug into the ice.  That could be profitable.

I think that Greenland or Canada could run a pilot project somewhere.

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In relation to the prior post, I have this:

Just a first guess.  The sphere will be kept very cold normally but could tolerate some heating.

The device would have methods to thaw some ice to a vapor and then process it into Hydrogen and Oxygen.  Then it would burn that in rocket engines.  Very little storage of Oxygen and Hydrogen.

I imagine it could spiral in from its source, which could be the Dwarf Planet Ceres, or some asteroid or Callisto.

Using Mars/Phobos/Deimos as the source is not out of the question and may be the way to start...

You could give it some initial kick with a booster either Nuclear or Chemical.

You could have humans on board, but I favor robots.  It should have some redundancy in critical parts such as engines and electrolysis units.

The solar panel can move inward or outward on a mast to adjust for the concentration of sunlight, using more or less of the mirror.

The mirror also serves as a solar shade so that the sphere of payload can be kept very cold.

So, these could travel to the Earth/Moon, or stony terrestrial crossing asteroids that tend to be stony.

Stony asteroids, so given this material could then be converted to make cycling spaceships, and also to deliver materials derived to places like terrestrial planetary orbits.

Venus could be supplied with various materials, to bootstrap it into its own production of materials like Nitrogen to export.

Solar driven propulsion could move materials outwards from the terrestrials to places that might have use of it.

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In the case where you want to bring these materials to the Moon, various options can exist from soft landing the derived materials, or slamming it hard into a dark crater, but not so hard that the materials are lost to vaporization.

I really think that bulk masses of most organic chemicals can come to the Moon this way, and of course to Earth/Moon orbits, and perhaps we can get Nitrogen from Venus.

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Based on the idea of a Solar Moth: https://isaacarthur.net/video/solar-mot … lar-sails/

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A person always has the chance to be wrong in a new situation.  The little I think I might know I will try to say, but don't bet your future on it.

We are talking about a new source of assistive labor on the cheap.  We may see individual robots, but it is questionable if they are going to be individuals or if they have a sort of consciousness it may reside in a computer somewhere, and then that creature has many robot bodies.  So, if it does come to express desires and needs, those are not going to be the same as for humans, I think.  It is an alien.  That is not proven to be a good or a bad thing yet.  The question of if we are inflicting cruelty on it, seems a way off.  It seems to me that if it does express desires and needs, that may not be too hard to satisfy.

For instance, would a sentient computer/robot(s), regard a toaster as it's kin?  Technically we are organic robots, at least in some level of appearance.  Would a silicon or whatever materials it is regard us as not kin?  Hard to say.  If there would be sentient robot(s)/computers, then would they object to less aware robots doing labor?  We don't know yet.  We may be stumbling into a problem(s) of a solution(s).

But now the result of cheap labor.

Historically the civil war was a bit about that issue.  It was normal around the planet for most people of power and money to have slaves/servants.  Peoples of various characteristics participated in that.

The Civil War was supposedly about the North and the South, but really it was about the North, South, Federal, and outsiders including native Americans.

The problem was if you kept getting more slaves, then where would common farm people from Europe go to make a living?
And those who owned slaves or hoped they could own slaves did not want these common people from elsewhere telling them what they could or should do.   As I understand it the South had a notion that with slave labor, they could take over Latin America.

But that was then, and I was just trying to say how peoples can get against each other because they do not want a bad future, they were each stepping on each other's hopes of a future.  I don't care to dip any further into the past, because it was and now is not.  It is an example.  Best to say let it all go.

But as I think (th) was saying the potential for common people to have robots will exist.  And factories will likely be productively deflationary.  It won't be possible to say well we will give the common laborers what they want, and suppress the humanoid robots.
Because, the East Asians exist, and so do the Europeans, and India.  Africa, I do not understand.  I am trying to understand that but I do not.

But I think that we are along for the ride, wherever it is going.  So, we will just have to do the best we can.

Whatever you think of Elon Musk, he has provided the notions of brain augmentation and guaranteed income.  Those are notions.

The European experience has been three primary inputs.  Hunter Gatherers, M.E. Farmers, and Horse Peoples, of the Steppes.

We do have the risk that the inheritors of the Hunter Gatherers will be exterminated from the gene pool by the other two.  The Farmers are fond of vertical hierarchies of exterminations slowly, and the Horst Peoples will exterminate periodically horizontally.

The Hunter Gatherers are the adaptive, and strangely enough the more likely to have built technology, I think the other two are about inviting people they don't like to leave the gene pool.  Hunter Gatherers will likely kill as well, but I think they would rather have a stake of their own.  Living in wilderness they have to be inventive or they die.  The other two develop a level of invention and then eat their brains and are unable to have new growth.

That is my opinion.  That is why I want to open the frontier of space, and that is why those who wish to own us and dispossess us, do not want us to go into the frontier.

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To be fair, I guess it should be further studied the dangers of plastics, as the truth will set you free: https://www.theguardian.com/environment … dy-plastic

I will accept fair minded study.  But will be suspicious of "Movements" that involve self important crusaders who really should be given a better outlet for their inherited or induced psychological needs.

True study of plastics in the bodies of water we utilize, may indicate best practices.  I don't think it is reasonable to adopt a fanatic no-plastics stance.  Obviously dumping plastic waste into the oceans is completely wrong.

To make water filled underwater greenhouses, perhaps some types of plastics would be less harmful than others.  That would be good to know for places like Mars as well, as I feel the devices will be useful there.

Here is a notion of a self-propelled robotic greenhouse, underwater:

Possibly something like this could exist in an ocean Gyre, hovering below the waves and storms.

Solar cells will not be high preforming and would need to be in a dry bag, I expect, but this could work.  Or if there are waves perhaps it could pull some energy from them. 

I have shown a small amount of air in the top, but unlike Nemos gardens, this would try to have a neutral buoyancy.

The schemes could be many.  Salt water outside, fresh water inside (Fresh water floats), or the inverse, or the same type of water inside or outside.  In some schemes the bag would be closed and not have an inlet and outlet that this drawing shows.

You might grow many things inside of it, at the moment I am contemplating macroalgae.

Hydrilla is generally frowned upon.  But let's say you have a bag of it in the dead sea.  You distilled fresh water from the dead sea, and filled a bag.  Now there are few animals that may damage the bag, as it is submerged and the salt is unfriendly to most life.

Hydrilla is not going to take up residence in the dead sea, but you should keep it away from the mouth of fresh water rivers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrilla

I don't know how permeable plastic can be.  I would expect many situations.  If not too permeable then you don't lose much of the water in the bag so your makeup water may not be too much in quantity.

https://seagrant.oregonstate.edu/sites/ … 100913.pdf
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And so, this might be done on Mars, if we made our own Dead Sea there.

Don Juan Pond:
https://www.amusingplanet.com/2014/09/d … er-on.html

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/don-juan-pond

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https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

At -50 then the vapor pressure would be 0.0577 mbar, very much less than the 5.5 average on Mars.

Looking back at this post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 77#p221877

I think that -50 would be extreme, I think the conditions of the "Dead Sea" could be more moderate.  Of course, I expect the thing to be domed over, but at times when the outside humidity was high at night it might be possible in some way to extract moisture from the air to get it into the "Dead Sea".

Anyway, I have been over this stuff before in different ways.  I think that farming like this could be done on Earth and other worlds as well, perhaps Mars.

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https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 00#p221900
(th) said:

Thanks for the observation.  Communication is assisted by using familiar visualizations.  A cube shell, with internal "Organs", is a concept that I think many people can visualize, particularly if they have prior exposure to the notion of the "Borg" in Star Trek.

The concept of a shell without a naturally formed world within may have benefits.  The environment inside such a shell may satisfy some life support needs making the idea of living inside of one more reasonable.

The interior of such a shell, may protect from radiation, and give a moderation to lighting and heating situations.
Such a shell may keep most outside objects out and inside objects from going out, unless humans manipulate an intended transfer Inner Space<>Outer Space.

Many substances such as ices and wood-like materials are less suitable for making complete life support, but they can be used in bulk to make an improved environment where objects within do not have to work as hard to bring full life support.  In effect the ices and the cellulose/wood, perhaps being excess materials which might be tossed to a waste bin, can be used to make a useful structure.

There are some amusing things that could be done with the structure.  I have supposed solar power, and fission power and even perhaps fusion power, but Phoebe as a cube could have tether elements in it or about it that could produce electricity by magnet drag with Saturn's magnetic field.  Calliban and I have discussed this for Neptunes moon Triton.  Like Phoebe, Triton is a retrograde object likely captured from the Kuiper belt.  While Saturn rotates in a prograde direction Phoebe orbits in a retrograde direction.  So many magnetic lines of force are cut.  This power source could exploit both the spin of Saturn and the orbit of Phoebe.  Eventually when the "Cube" got too close to Saturn you would have to stop consuming that energy, but it is a huge supply most likely.  You would also want to miss colliding with a prograde moon when you were doing this.  As I have mentioned Triton, it is possible to do a similar thing there as well, around Neptune, perhaps.

Pause.............

So, then I am eyeballing Triton as a significant target on the way outward in the solar system.  I suppose solar might be tried at Neptune, but it requires some fair concern, that better options may exist.  I suppose we hope Fusion.  Maybe Fission, if indeed crashing comets vaporize their ices and release sand or dust like particles that could be mined out of the crust of an object like Titan.

Some sanity checks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetosphere_of_Saturn
The concern is, what if Phoebe or Triton are not in their parent planets magnetic field.  Good enough, if they are not they will pass though the magnetic tails, I think.

Then over time, drawn into a low orbit of the parent planet, their orbits will be more compatible with prograde objects.

Inverse to the situation of Titan, which has an atmosphere, where Phoebe materials may be aerobrake to Titan, Triton being retrograde it might be possible to aerobrake materials from prograde Neptune moons.

List of Neptune moons: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_ … %27s_moons

Phoebe and Triton might be considered to be energy oasis's.  We don't know if fusion or fission may be better in those locations, but inductive energy from relative motions will exist as a potential.

For this reason we may hope that planet 9/x may exist and have a magnetic field and some moons.  Perhaps a black hole with moons/planets?  Or it does not exist.

It would be interesting to work with Pluto and Charon.  No energy oasis that way for them, but if Fusion is a real thing then perhaps that.

The various energy methods will not be equally useful on all worlds.  Some may benefit to use something that is not considered economically competitive on the Earth.

This is one reason we should stimulate research in many energy sources.

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I imagine a little pig rooting is better than a lot.

What I have looked up says you can use domestic pigs, to knock down brush, to allow grass, but you need to be careful to not overdo it.

I am sure that if I was trying to grow crops I would not like wild pigs.

But it is a matter of curiosity for me, as they seem to be really close to entering the Canadian Shield.  Northwest Canada is like much of Siberia and Alaska, and apparently pigs have been in Siberia for some time.  But the Canadian shield is what was under the ice caps during the last ice age, and is quite a bit exposed rock, with some clay spots, lots of lakes, and generally northern trees where they can grow.

The rivers might be the more likely area where pigs could go, as there are marshes and sandbars and such.  Reeds, maybe cattails.  Moose, wolfs, bears, and smaller creatures.  The one good thing the pigs might do for the moose would be to reduce the white tail deer populations.
Those deer carry a brain disease that the moose die from.  Humans have sort of made white tail deer invasive to Moose territory.

Robert is sitting just next to the start of the Canadian Shield, and the maps shows feral pigs to be nearby.

Granted we might wish it were not so, but still, it will be interesting to see if they can cross into that territory and adapt.

When the robots take many of the factory job, perhaps one job people can have is feral pig reduction.

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Sort of a review of previously done stuff.  I just want a quick item today, at this time:

I have stored some interesting links in post #1 of this topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10144

Here are some:
Dealing with UV light on Mars: (Post #1563)
This reference which discusses a 3 layer plastic inflatable dome method, includes materials from SeaDragon:

Another UV reference:

At any rate the outer dome in the drawing may be protected by the methods SeaDragon indicated, and by not having Oxygen either inside it or at more than trace levels outside of it.

The surface water could have ice on it which may help block some UV light which may protect the inner dome, and the dark blue water content from some of the UV.

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So salty water likely can be tolerated.

Another protection for this system would be to have a "Draped" plastic film over the outer dome.  Doing that then that sheet could be changed out periodically when it yellowed or was excessively damaged by the Martian environment.  The sheet removed could be recycled into something else.

While I have provided for water radiators by having ice covered reservoirs as the radiators, those would not easily allow light in.  This system, it is hoped would allow light in and yet they could be used as radiators for a heat engine, particularly the upper water between the two domes.

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Time to do something responsible like cleaning up the house.

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I have had another look at seaweeds, particularly Antarctic ones.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63785575

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scie … 34345.html

https://earthsky.org/earth/seaweed-colo … ntarctica/

I have no proof that they utilize Acetate and Oxygen but suspect that they may.

So far, yeast, Mushrooms, and algae seem to be able to do that, but I presume those are tiny algae.  My hope is that the big ones can also.

My thinking that the polar areas are where it is more likely to be true is that both sea ice and the dark of winter may provoke them to do that to survive, to extract chemicals from the seawater.  Acetate and Oxygen perhaps.  But also, it could be that they may use Hydrogen, Methane, and CO as fuels as well.  This could be important for Mars farming if it is true.

The light must be rather attenuated at 100 meters, so these organisms might very well use such methods year around to get energy, as the small algae may dump Oxygen into the water for them to breath.

Such very cold water might house domes where warmer water could exist.  But living things could be on the domes.

If macroalgae have the property of chemosynthesis, then for Mars the generation of the chemicals they would need to promote their growth, along with a pinch of light.

I have speculated, but it might be true.  It could make evolutionary sense for these macroalgae to have such an ability.

And we have microbes that "Eat Air", so perhaps also there may be organisms in the ocean that eat dissolved gasses such as Hydrogen, Methane, and CO.  Certainly, those will be in the water.

About air eaters: https://newatlas.com/biology/air-eating … ica-artic/

If this ability exists then these organisms might be farmable on Mars, where long periods of darkness might occur both seasonally and from dust storms.  And as they may not need too much light, it may even be practical to nourish them a bit with artificial or piped in light.

This again talks about acetate in the Ocean.

As for Hydrogen, Methane, and CO, (And even Oxygen), there could be many ways these would be generated in the Ocean.

Natural Hydrogen can occur with the Oxidation of Iron, perhaps in volcanic rock.  It is apparent that Methane somehow seeps out of "Methane Seeps" in the ocean bottom.  CO and Oxygen might result from radiolysis.  So, our biosphere is likely a bit chemosynthetic and not only based on the sun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_hydrogen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_seep
So Cold Seeps may emit both Methane and Hydrogen Sulfide.  So, Hydrogen Sulfide may go on the list as well.

Methane Seep: https://www.usgs.gov/news/state-news-re … scientists
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There may not be use of these chemicals in Macroalgae, but I am hoping that there is.

Some filter feeders can use them.

Some animals feed on microbes that use the gasses, and some actually host microbes in their bodies that can utilize the chemicals.
https://www.whoi.edu/know-your-ocean/oc … 20microbes.

Drifting a bit out of topic, Bladderwort, are carnivorous plants.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utricularia
I believe that they are vascular plants.  While they may not consume chemicals from the water they may consume microbes that consume chemicals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utricularia

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I thought the carnivorous plants only get nutrients from eating creatures, but they seem to get Carbon, perhaps as calories?

Although they may have some uses, they are not necessarily a farm crop.  But along with other vascular plants that returned to water, they may have returned to the ability to extract chemicals from the water.  If so then that might be transferable to our garden food crops.

On the other hand perhaps Bladderwort could be bioformed to become a useful crop.

Done.

Returning to Mars, the combination of Hot Bricks and ice covered lakes could be worthwhile.

The hot bricks could come from a combination of nuclear and solar of some kind.

Using the lakes to be radiators then.  While part of the lake or sea may be of artic cold, down below can be sections partitioned of to be of a temperate temperature.

However, if someone misses the sunlight in their face, it would be possible to have small, pressurized greenhouses for that.

Sea weeds exist that might grow in some of the lake conditions,   Both artificial lighting in small portions and acetate might cause the to grow.

The conditions in the lakes and seas will be rather Earth like per radiation and temperature.

But I have said these things in various ways at many times.

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