New Mars Forums

I have seen other reports of this, some which are mentioned in this video:
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
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So, they touch on why some nations may have false statistics on demographics.

A thing we have that might be a bit similar is how supposedly the democrats want to bring in outsiders who they think they can enroll in their party, to preserve the system they have where they attract favor by offering gifts to the people who they struggle to keep poor.  Trying to gerrymander the culture.  They love a patronage/protection racket method of control.

And also, nature some animals want to posture as bigger and more threatening than they actually are.

A similar thing they mention for Nigeria, is that to distribute oil money, a subregion has an incentive to inflate their population numbers to get a bigger share.

I am not interested in fighting all Deamons, I just want to know where they are, and their tricks.

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If Ascender will be real, then before they do the H1 version that supposedly could go orbital they would do lesser vehicles: https://jpaerospace.com/blog/?p=6869  Quote:

I am very interested in knowing how their "symphony hybrid chemical/electric rocket engine" are to work.

These images may or may not apply: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=as … RE&first=1

https://www.reddit.com/r/hybridairships … ?rdt=52638

My pea brain struggles.

Anyway I am imagining thinking backwards with it for Venus and Mars.  Basing it in orbit, and letting it drop down on occasion into the atmosphere to extract chemicals.

For Mars, with only .38 g, this could be easier than for Earth or Venus.  And Phobos and Deimos are in orbit for solid mass.  A question is, if an Ascender could navigate though the mixing zone for the solar wind and the atmosphere of Mars, could it pick up Hydrogen and Helium?  And of course Nitrogen and Carbon would be wanted.

Could this machine do Soaring?  A lot of these things I only understand fragments of at this point.

Dynamic Soaring is being contemplated to be able to exceed the speed of the solar wind at the Heliopause: https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/sp … 17442/full
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It is a long shot for the upper Martian atmosphere, but a question might yield to an answer eventually.

I am not at all assured that an Ascender could land on Mars.  But perhaps they could be based in orbit.  And if no other source were available fuel might be extracted from the Mars atmosphere.  At least CO2, which could be split into CO and O2, but maybe H2 as well.  Carbon could also be a propellant for the Neumann Drive, and Oxygen might be propellant for some type of Mass Driver ships engine.  But of course metals and Oxygen can likely come from Phobos and Deimos.

It would be very good to be able to refuel/refill ships in Mars orbits to access the asteroid belt and for trips inward in the solar system.

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If you have time for it, this is an interesting video, to a large extent about the robot hands: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ryWf8StWjk
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I have previously been interested in robots on the Moon, as the time latency is not impossible to work with.

But now I am thinking about Starship@LEO, and Space Manufacturing.

Currently the idea is like the ISS, with humans as the actuators, and the massive life support that that requires.

Alternately some companies are toying with a smaller scale space manufacturing with a capsule return of the product.

But Starship@LEO with Optimus would possibly be a low cost route to a higher volume production level.

While there can be alternative configurations, one that might pay well would be to launch a Starship to orbit with raw materials and the needed tools including a high-grade Optimus, could launch, manufacture, and land with created product, to a tower catch.  You would avoid rendezvous and docking to another space object.  No space toilet and showers needed.  No food and little water needed.

While Optimus might do some self-directed actions, it also could be teleoperated using star link, I would suppose.  Teleoperation from Earth could be from humans and/or supercomputers on the Earth's surface.

If the ships cabin had air pressurization, that could be Nitrogen or Argon, or Oxygen or Methane.  You could have clean room type circumstances.  As there would be Nitrogen or Argon, or Oxygen or Methane, the air cooling on robots would be workable.

While Microgravity Manufacturing is the main target for now, I also speculate that by tumbling a Starship per Dr. Johnson's concepts, you would do low gravity experiments to simulate the Moon and/or Mars, and also could do some experiments in low gravity Manufactuing.

I am interested in Lobster foot for Optimus working on these ships.

It is hard to believe that this exists but it is easy to see how it could be useful in microgravity or low gravity: https://brightside.me/articles/the-afri … ot-814508/  Quote:

So, such a foot could grip hand holds, and could have eyes on it for local vision.  But it also might be possible to use it to manipulate some objects.  And even so, especially in low gravity it might still function to be able to walk on it.

It is probably not too good for persistence hunting on the savannah, but we will not be hunting antelope in space, except maybe in animal reserves in artificial gravity habitats.  (Probably a dumb idea anyway).

The infatuation with extreme athletics, for historically efficient ways to get meat, is probably wrongly directed in the notion of what can be useful to humans of the future.  That is my current opinion.

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While I regret deviating from the work of kdb512 here about motors for Venus, he has already contributed much that is of interest.

I have deviated into methods of terraform of Venus using hydrocarbons as greenhouse effect and to modify UV's influence on the production of Sulfuric Acid.

I have already stated and affirmed that if Venus has life, then we can do without Venus.  I think it is more improbable that Venus has life, but it is required to honestly look for it.

Without the existence of life on Venus, I think it can be supposed that swelling the atmosphere of Venus could be of value.  Historically I had read of slamming the planet with an asteroid so that the atmosphere would swell up and be blown away by the solar wind.  Then, supposedly the planet would be useful in 10,000 years or so.  I do not like that for the time duration necessary, and for the fact that I want to harvest the atmosphere, not throw it away.

If we use greenhouse gasses to swell up the atmosphere of Venus, then it seems we may also reduce the UV conveyed to lower parts of the atmosphere, and so tip the balance to allow less production of Sulfuric Acid, and promote the retention of H20 and SO3.  This may make the environment more machine friendly for cloud cities.

So, we can use a tool that is intended for Mars, to heat up a planet that is already very hot, but might hope to have useful results from that.

But now there seems to be a new tool for heating up Mars:  https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/ … p-glitter/
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This tool also might work to swell up the atmosphere of Venus.

If the Atmosphere of Venus were considered a resource, then what it has to offer in declining magnitudes are Oxygen, Carbon, Nitrogen, Sulfuric Acid, Water, and some smaller things.

The heating methods I have described might not heat up the Exosphere of Venus, so may not promote air loss by heating, but it might elevate the Exosphere and make it more reachable by the solar wind.

Raising the upper atmosphere would reduce the gravitation experienced by the upper atmosphere.  I am interested in atmospheric mining, so this might be useful.  From my point of view this raises the orbital energy's of atmospheric atoms, even if they are only on suborbital pathways.

But my desire is to harvest the atmosphere, not so much to let the solar wind drag it away.  So a magnetic field might be imposed to control the solar winds access to the swollen atmosphere.  Of course this sounds expensive, but if the value of the product justifies it then the cost of a magnetic field might be tolerated.  I would think that a leaky magnetic field would be preferred, to allow the solar wind to push itself into the atmosphere and mix with it but not carry it away.

I don't know how possible that is.

A magnetic field might also cause gasses that leak from orbital habitats to drop into the atmosphere of Venus, so this would be a form of conservation.

It orbit it may be possible to build structure in part with Carbon from the atmosphere of Venus.  I have also suggested various ways to bring stony asteroid materials into the orbit of Venus, from small asteroids that cross orbits with the terrestrial planets.  These materials could also contribute to habitats in orbit, and floating structures in the atmosphere of Venus.

kdb512, myself, and others have posted about various ways to mine the surface of Venus.  These materials may also make a contribution to both floating and orbital structures.

Nitrogen and Oxygen from the atmosphere of Venus may be used to fill orbital structures along with Oxygen from Stony Asteroid materials.

I am interested in Very Low Orbit spacecraft of various kinds to lift atmosphere up to those orbital structures.

Here is an article about that for Earth.  It may be adaptable to Venus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_Earth_orbit
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I also think that tether technology may be supportive of scooping atmosphere from Venus up to orbital structures.

While some people support the idea of cloud cities, I prefer orbital structure.  But cloud cities are fine, but I think maybe more, robots would inhabit those for the most part with just a few humans.  Orbital habitats would be bathed in a large amount of solar energy available.  If they would be built substantial enough to support humans this could be a very good contribution to a solar system wide habitation process.

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Actually this video was simply entertaining to me.  But, in the previous post I suggested swelling up the atmosphere of Venus, so that the atmosphere would experience lower gravity.  So, then I suppose I think that this might allow a velo atmospheric system to work better.

I don't know if an "Electret" could be helpful, but I am looking for helpful things for such an intention.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

So, apparently it can attract matter.  While I am interested in collecting atmospheric molecules, it also can work to collect dust, as perhaps from an asteroid or the Moon, I suppose.

I dust is not all of the same materials, then could you spin a Electret and separate types of grains of dust, where they may have different responses to the electrical field, and also have different material densities for inertia.  Using electrostatic cling to separate substances using also a mechanical rotation.

A flow of a fluid, perhaps a gas of some type at some pressure might also be included in the process.

Just entertainment, no strong belief of accomplishment beyond that.

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That sounds like it has some potential.

Sulfur has been found on the Moon and Mars, I believe.

I think some games may be played with chemistry on Venus.  But step #1 is to be sure at a high level that life does or does not exist on Venus.  I am thinking of the clouds, so unlike Mars, that could be tested fairly well, I think.

If it is confirmed that life does not exist, then I suggest we consider increasing the greenhouse effect on Venus.

For two reasons: 1) To give UV protection and so then to convert H2SO4 to SO3 or SO2, and H20.  2) To expand the atmosphere, so that it could be extracted to orbit from a higher position in the gravity well of Venus.

Here is a possible tool: https://www.colorado.edu/today/2010/06/ … lder-study  Quote:

So, in any case, we have the needed molecules to make a haze like Titan has.  Methane for instance would apparently be converted into other things such as

At the hot base of the cloud deck on Venus, H2S04 decays into H20 and SO3.  When SO2 and water are influenced by UV light then H2S04 is created.

Here is a related article in another topic about Earth: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 48#p228948

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So, we have a primary conditions on Venus.  Either it is having it's H2 replenished, or we just accidentally viewed it when it had the last of it's H2 in the clouds.  I think the more probable idea is that it's H2 is replenished from some reservoirs, even if some H2 is carried away by the solar wind.

And so the two reservoirs that I can think of are either internal to Venus or external to Venus.  External might be the solar wind or impactors.

So, the chemicals exist to make a haze like that of Titan.  Making Methane might lead to the creation of Acetylene.

I guess the hope would be a haze layer well above the H2SO4 and H20 cloud layers.  No guarantee for that, just a possibility.

If the atmosphere of Venus swells up then it's top will be further up in the gravity well of Venus.  This might be assistive in the ability to collect atmosphere to put into O'Neill type habitats made of captured asteroid materials or materials mined from Venue.

Inside of the atmosphere of Venus then it may become less acid.  Also if large floating structures were created, then Starship SSTO could drop down to say 5 or 10 bars depth, the have a very slow terminal velocity or even float.

Then the elevator might move the starship up to say the .33 bar level to launch it to space again, maybe SSTO, as the gravity of Venus is less than that of Earth.

If you are making Methane and Oxygen for Starship, then you perhaps could make Methane to make a haze on Venus.

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If these things work as is anticipated, it will be necessary for competition of almost every company to use Humanoid Robots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGtoXQw3Lo4
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It looks like a new world is coming, like it or not.

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I really liked this post from Terraformer: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 31#p229031

A master platform, might have some centrifugal structures that could envelop and collect rubble tiny rubble piles.

The main problem I see in it is that an imbalance might happen where like a washing machine the load is too far off center.  So, that needs to be thought about.

This is one try:

The box with the counter rotor is to help set the collecting device to the proper spin for the object to be collected.  Perhaps you would have zero spin for the collector "Cup", and then increase it until you start collecting materials.

Once materials were collected the device would move to a major platform near by, so that the materials can be further processed.

A certain amount of concept it included, but for sure it could be revised to be better.

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So, I have found evidence for transmutation using protons, by this query phrase "Proton radiation and transmutation?"
But on my phones search engine, Bing as usual may not get me where I want to go.

So, I copied phrasing from my phone to query that: ""Proton radiation" refers to a stream of high-energy protons use as radiation, while "transmutation describes the process of changing one element into another by altering the number of protons in its nucleus"

Again disappointed, it almost seems like the system under Bing wants to censor some of this.

It only wants to talk about proton beams for medical therapy.

Well, here is a article mentioning relativistic protons in some parts of the Van Allen Belts: https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 23JA031484
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Well, those sound powerful.

Next Query: "Use of proton radiation to treat radioactive nuclear waste?"
OK, getting warmer: https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/911 … roton-beam
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Production of Carbon 14 with cosmic rays, and Nitrogen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14

Then what is a cosmic ray?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ray
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So, if you have powerful protons and atomic nuclei, a collision with other matter may produce transmutation of some kind.

Query: "Where does Carbon 14 in nuclear diamond batteries come from?"
Where does Carbon 14 in nuclear diamond batteries come from?
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OK, but this transmutation to Carbon 14 probably involves Neutrons, so I cannot be totally assured that Protons may do similar.

So, maybe eventually, Nuclear Diamond Batteries can be sized up or ganged to provide a significant wattage, but for now they only supply a very tiny amount of power for very extended periods.

I stumbled onto an AI assistant, it provided this: "Yes, proton beams can indeed be used to induce nuclear transmutation! This process involves bombarding a target material with high-energy protons, causing nuclear reactions that transform one element or isotope into another1.

One application of this technique is in the transmutation of long-lived radioactive waste, such as cesium-137 and strontium-90, into shorter-lived or stable isotopes. This can help reduce the long-term radiotoxicity and volume of nuclear waste, making its management safer and more efficient2.

Would you like to know more about how this process works or its applications?"

Here I am presuming that a Carbon Shell can be transmuted with high energy Protons in a planetary radiation belt.
The blue area is then protected from that which can transmute, but the blue layer may experience radiolysis from secondary radiation which may penetrate into it.

It is likely to be desired that the Ocean floor simulation will be porous enough that the water based fluids can be circulated through it.

If it is only water then I would expect the production of Oxygen and Hydrogen.  But CO2 and N2 could be included, so that other chemicals would be produced.

The chemistry generated, could then be presented to organism that could consume it.

So, it is possible that this is a type of biosphere that could run off of a radiation belt.

If there is a planet 9 and it is big and has radiation belts, then this might be possible to use at that location also.

I think I have dug up enough materials to justify speculation in these directions.

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Interesting materials.  Frankly so much that my ADD kicks in, so I hope I won't offend you.

In addition to what you have proposed, I suggest pyrolysis:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrolysis

If gobs of biomass could be produced in the clouds, then Algae and Cyanobacteria could be subjected to some of the lower temperature pyrolysis processes with the natural heat of Venus.

From this post, #494, I have this simple suggestion for growing the biomass: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 08#p229008
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In the pyrolysis, article I included above, there appear to be several pathways to various types of fuel.

I might take your idea about LOX, and suggest putting the biomass into a drum, and possibly a low quality fuel would be made available simply by heating the contents of the drum.  Possibly a turbine or motor could run off of these fuels with could be syngas, oils, and Carbon.  I suppose that in reality you might want to make more refined products.

In addition to LOX as a coolant, you might also have Liquid Nitrogen and Liquid CO2, and those also could be used as coolants on an aircraft, even turning motors as the situation heats up at a low depth in the atmosphere of Venus.

Your surface mining equipment might be able to receive some of these products.

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If my presence becomes annoying and drags things the wrong way, just tell me, and I will step back.

But the memberships work, have caused me to think I see a convenient convergence of possibilities at this point.
1) I would say that before a Starship is sent to Mars, there is going exist a desire to prove life support in space.
2) You might want to test some animals under synthetic gravity.
3) You might want to test Optimus Robots in such a ship, and perhaps to use teleoperation with them.
4) You might want to be able to use Dragon for limited visits to such a Starship.

So, if you would spin one end over end, it may be able to simulate both 1/6 and .38 g forces.

It would make sense to keep this activity in LEO, so that radiation does not become a huge issue and to make access easier.

The Elevator may make it possible for access to the cabin area airlock, or it might make sense to put ballast on the ships tail end to cause the center of rotation to be at the location of an airlock/docking port.

Maybe this would be done so that a Dragon could facilitate visits to this test device, from another space station like the ISS, if it is still functional.

Humans might stay for a few days, to get a feal for things like body fluids migrations, and perhaps some other factors.

The Optimus when teleoperated either from another space Station or the surface of the Earth, might be able to manage the test animals.

So, you would be testing the ships' reliability, and the Optimus, and the Animals in fractional gravitation.  For instance, you may want to test it over long time durations, such as 6 months or 9 months, or a simulated trip to Mars and back.
After all if it is going to go to Mars and back, it has to be very reliable.

And it looks to me that these things are likely to be possible in the next couple of years.

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OK, then I will try to give support to the idea.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE

I seems that there are some very high energy particles in some of the radiation belts of Jupiter, but I am unable to determine if they are energetic enough to preform transmutation at a sufficient rate.  For the moment I will have to plead ignorant.

I do not know if the concept is possible in reality.

So until I know more I fill accept failure.

But I do believe that the belts could do a lesser ionization of molecules that could lead to the creation of chemical energy.

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