New Mars Forums

I have to appreciate what China has discovered on the Moon: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … f953b99849  Quote:

Lunar soil is speculated to contain "hundreds of billions of tons of water."  (Stated a 9.22 in the video).  And I believe this does not refer to possible polar ice deposits.

https://blog.sciandnature.com/2025/01/c … es-us.html
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There is Nitrogen in the Lunar soil, perhaps from Earth: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature03929
So, with Water and Carbon in the Lunar soil it is possible to have agriculture on the Moon, I speculate.

So, perhaps if we have a refilling station at the Earth/Moon "L1", water might come from the Moon eventually maybe even Carbon.

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Well (th) I will entertain your query: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 55#p236755
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Questions from (th):

At one point Elon Musk was considering making it into a "Mini-Starship".  That was abandoned in order to focus on much larger sized Starships.  The 2nd Stage of Falcon 9, I believe is of an Aluminum/Lithium Alloy which is lighter than Stainless Steel, except that the heat shield would be much heavier than for Stainless Steel.  The 2nd Stage of Falcon 9 would burn up very fast in the atmosphere without a very, very good heat shield.  Therefore the Falcon 9 2nd Stage does not land on Earth at all but is either abandoned to a higher orbit, or sent to burn up in the atmosphere.

The Falcon 9 1st stage if it does land does a "Hover Slam".  It is a very tricky maneuver where somehow, they can calculate exactly how to throttle the engine down and when to shut the engine off.  If they calculate wrong the engine cuts off too soon and the ship crashes.  If they cut the engine off too late, the ship rises up again and then crashes.  They cannot throttle the engine down enough to simply hover.

Starship and Superheavy can both hover, which is an improvement.

It would not be practical to get the Falcon 9 1st stage into LEO on it's own power.  Perhaps some sort of Starship could lift it to LEO, but I am not sure that that would have a value.

The reason I am interested in bringing the Falcon 9 2nd Stage to Lunar orbit and then filling it and then landing it is that is is otherwise a throw away item.  Although the Merlin Engines coke up after a while, I am hoping that it would have one more burn in it, if it was a used engine.  One more burn to land some robots or other instruments to a location.  Maybe supplies to a base.  It itself could be valuable at a base for its metals.

Let's suppose that we had a propellants depot in Lunar Proximity.  You might use electric rockets to deliver RP-1 and water to it from LEO.
The depot would be capable of cracking the water into Oxygen and Hydrogen, in a quantity suitable to fill one Falcon 9 2nd stage.  Then you could land it.  (I have not stipulated any use for the Hydrogen Yet).

It would seem that the 2nd stage would have an even worse problem with throttling down the engine to land on the Moon, but that might be corrected by loading it down with a sufficient amount of Cargo.  Legs would have to be added to the assembly, I propose that they be made of materials wanted on the surface of the Moon, perhaps of Carbon and Plastics as much as possible.

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Another interesting use for such a 2nd Stage would be to boost a Starship back to Earth from Lunar Orbit.  Merlins are not as efficient or powerful as Raptors, but there propellant "RP-1" can be stored and transferred much better than Methane.

Water Similarly could be transferred to a Lunar Proximate Depot much easier than Oxygen.

In both the case of RP-1 and Water, the vapor pressures being low at low temperatures you would not need active cooling during transfer by electric rocket.  This is a benefit because electric propulsion is slow and if you had to have active cooling hardware on the ship it would be excess mass, and would demand some of the electric energy budget.  If you had to spend tha extra electricity, then you have to have larger solar panels or a larger nuclear reactor, which then adds even more mass.

But if you bring RP-1 and water to a Lunar Proximate space station which largely holds position then that station can have a very large power supply which you might manipulate the propellants.  In the case of Falcon 9 2nd Stage, the RP-1 just has to be warmed up a bot to be fluid enough to pump, The water can be split into LOX and Hydrogen.  Since the Station does not move much it can have a massive power supply with a lot of inertia and can then be used to prevent the boil-off of the LOX.

We might microwave the Hydrogen to provide propulsion for station keeping.

Let's consider "L1" for the Station.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point
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Sorry, that is the Sun/Earth L1 not the Earth/Moon L1.  I will seek a more appropriate diagram.

This perhaps: https://www.thespacereview.com/article/2882/1
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Starship might be able to grab used Falcon 9 2nd stages from LEO, and bring them to a electric tug which would bring them and "RP-1" and water to the station at "L1".  The Station at "L1" would warm the "RP-1" for filling the Falcon 9 2nd Stages.  It would also crack the water into LOX and Hydrogen.  The Hydrogen might be used for Station keeping, being ejectred for propulsion from a VASIMR engine. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_ … sma_Rocket

Some station keeping is needed at "L1" as it it a bit unstable.

Now this leaves the question, would then Falcon 9 2nd Stage have enough power to go to the Moon and actually land with a payload?  Well, I am not sure.  If not, then the Station needs to be in the orbit of the Moon, closer into it.  In which case the Hydrogen thrust will also be wanted.

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For the case of Hydro-Lox spacecraft the same method could be used but just with Water, no RP-1.

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In the case of Starship and other Metha-Lox methods, I am hoping that the station can take Hydrogen from the water and use it to cook the RP-1 into Methane.  Not entirely confident for that.

But if you did have used Falcon 9 2nd stages you might use them to boost Starship while burning RP-1 and LOX>

But of course, Merlins get Carboned up.

I think that shipping a stable hydrocarbon and water to a processing refilling station might make sense.  I already explained why that could be compatible with electric propulsion such as Magdrive or Neumann Drive.  You might also ship Carbon or Dry Ice to get the proper balance of Carbon, Oxygen, and Hydrogen atoms to create the various propellants with.

I hope that that helps (th).

Ask for more if you like.

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Ending Pending.

So, I am continuing to be interested in the concepts that Firefly projects, and that of Magdrive and Neumann drive.  Those and of course the heavy lift capabilities in development such as SpaceX, Blue Origin, Rocket Lab Plus ULA?

The idea of depots in CIS Lunar Space, is growing.  Blue Origin has the notion of actively cooled Hydro-Lox, and some have speculated on low boil off methods for SpaceX Metha-Lox.

I am wondering about stored Jet fuel and water.  We already think about generating Oxygen and Methane on Mars from CO2 and Water.

Could you do it in Lunar Orbit, using Jet Fuel and Water?  I said Jet fuel, but really, I indicate fuel for Merlin Engines.  That fuel and water are low risk for boil off.  They are the Low Maintenance companions, I think.  Using Magdrive or Neumann Drive you might slowly move depots of them to a Lunar proximity, while having low maintenance costs for the preservation of the fuel and water.

Could you split the Hydrogen off of the water to produce Oxygen and then add that Hydrogen to the "Jet Fuel", to produce Methane?
Perhaps some kind of solar hot process might do that?  I know that it might want to produce other Hydrocarbons, but I would have a look at it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel
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So, it seems that in CIS Lunar Space, it might be possible to store both the Jet Fuel and Water as gel or ice.  Neither one has a very high vapor pressure I expect.  I think that makes them low maintenance.

And that brings up some interesting possible options as to if you could push either one of them out of a spaceship in the night side of the Moon during a landing event and then recover the substances before they evaporated.  That way your landing legs do not have to be as strong.  There could easily be locations on the Moon which will have no Carbon or Hydrogen to make fuel with.  Oxygen is fairly ubiquitous on the Moon.

But my primary interest is in a orbital depot in proximity of the Moon where Jet Fuel and water can be refined into various propellants.
Propellants for a Merlin Engine.
Propellants for a Hydro-Lox Engine
Propellants for a Metha-Lox Engine.

I will note that the stored products, "Jet Fuel" and Water will make good radiation protection.   So, the Merlin engines perhaps should be respected a little more as you can perhaps use "Jet Fuel" and Water as shielding before you use them for propellants.  Yes, you can do that with Methane and Hydrogen also but then you are suffering boiloff and cryogenic burdens.

The Jet fuel might also be subjected to electrolysis, if necessary to produce various materials.

Firefly intends to transport hypergolic propellant as I seem to recall.  I think that they could transport "Jet Fuel" and Water.

Also, it may be that water from the Moon will be worth lifting up to Lunar orbit, so then all you would send to Lunar Orbit would be Jet fuel.

In case you are new to this topic this post, #212, describes Magdrive: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 13#p236713

So, if it can all work as I hope it can this would be a very good tool kit for expanding into Space.

We also might consider if "Jet Fuel" could be transported to Phobos and Deimos, using Magdrive.  The two moons almost certainly can yield Oxygen so there would be no need to send water.  So a refilling method could be established in Mars orbit, I feel.

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By imposition and agreement, the focus of this topic> https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11271
"Index» Business Proposals» Data Centers (Including Off World)"

Is kept narrower than I would like.  So, since the Moon seems such a good case for it, I will seek to develop it further here.

The view now indicates that things are already under intentions:
1) Starlink like networks.
2) Sun-Synchronous AI networks for Inference AI.
3) Moon development, with Neuralink.
4) Asteroid Mining.

This full set of objectives, achieved would give a chance at a worthwhile existence, I feel.

An Oxygen Bubble Radiator with internally nested sub-radiator systems is what interests me at this moment.

Checking the inventory of materials on the Moon 40-45% Oxygen and the rest being mostly metals and Silicon.  The total amount of Oxygen Bubble Radiators that could be created is vast.

Collecting solar power to electricity and dumping the heat from AI will require suitable heat sinks, and I think Oxygen Bubble Radiators may do well for the purpose.

From that mentioned topic I have this: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 02#p236702
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On the Moon I am imagining very large Oxygen Cylinders laying on their sides.

I have previously suggested Oxygen at 1/3 bar, to be compatible with Humans and to decrease fire risk and to reduce the needed structural strength.  But I suppose higher pressures could be used.

After all Oxygen Cylinders on Earth don't seem to catch fire from pure Oxygen inside, so there must be some method to provide for that.
But if people are inside, then fire risk and breathing methods would need addressing.

I do not intend long term human habitation as radiation protection would run counter to the desire to radiate heat.

Where previously I mentioned only the shadowed craters of the Moon, I think much of the high latitudes would do, as you can put up vertical or angled walls of solar panels to capture energy and to shade the radiators.

In realty Neuralink and Virtual Reality could allow a person on the Earth to have one or more robot bodies on the Moon that it could temporarily inhabit with the persons consciousness.

So, if you had 10 billion people on Earth, you might have 20 billion Robots on the Moon, and perhaps 10 billion Robots on Earth.  People's minds may have one or more Avatars more than their human body.

There are various ideas for moving mass from the Moon.  There are matter projectors, and there are Elevator and Tether lifting concepts.

I myself am a bit interested in Magdrive and/or Neumann Drive to project matter to a receiver.  This might be done with conductive materials such as Metals, Iron, Aluminum, Copper, (Maybe other).

If by some means you can move mass from the Moon to its orbits, then Magdrive or Neumann Drive could be used for Asteroid missions to get materials from the asteroids to the Earth/Moon sub-system.

I have shown radiator fins to double as impactor protection.  Solar panels might also do some of that.

Or you might employ rows of chevron fins.

Anyway, lets imagine that eventually 50% of the Moons surface would be mostly covered in Oxygen Radiators.

While solar energy might be collected on the Moons surface, it might also be beamed down to the Moon form power plants in orbits.

And I do not prohibit the use of other power sources as they may be available.

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I think that cold resource will of course be different for different situation.

The one I have suggested so far may be best suitable for the Shadowed Craters of the Moon.

I presume that power will be beamed into the crater, or alternately nuclear energy would be available to power the data centers.

There is some hope that the Moon may have some CO2 in the coldest spots.  Otherwise, Carbon might need importing.

The hope is that canisters can be made that will be able to hold a compressed Oxygen volume, at low cost.  This would be the outer shell radiator. 

On the Moon, impactors might be a problem that could puncture the outer shell, but as I have said before, that shell could just be patched, and the shell be refilled with Oxygen.

https://scitechdaily.com/the-moons-top- … 000-years/
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So, using Oxygen in canisters as the outer stage radiator, therefore makes sense to me.  Also, if Oxygen is needed for an emergency purpose, then these containers will hold some.

I have suggested Oxygen at 1/3 bar, only because I do not want to promote fire and do not want the chamber walls to have to hold a high pressure.  But perhaps other pressures will be considered for an advantage after this might be tried.

Then running CO2 filled heat exchangers inside of the chambers, you might use forced convection and even heat pumps to distribute heat from the CO2 into the Oxygen.

At another point elsewhere a heat exchanger might dump heat out of water from a data center into the CO2.

So, perhaps this could be a money printer on the Moon, if it works.

https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/int … ng-241578/
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Created canisters might have features which may be protective from punctures from impactors.  Scale like radiator fins might absorb some impacts without impactors actually puncturing the Oxygen envelope.

It might also be possible to make structures out of glassy materials as well.

It might be possible to transmit power with lasers into the craters.  The laser sources could be high spots on the Moon, or even orbital devices.

Special tuned solar cells can receive these laser beams with a fair efficiency.

https://interestingengineering.com/spac … y-to-earth
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Of course, on the Moon you don't have to be concerned with atmosphere.

So, maybe Tesla & SpaceX and others can establish an industry on the Moon for AI training.

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I do not advise other people to invest in Tesla, or if a possible SpaceX, but I need to make the point that some people understand, that Tesla is not just a electric car company, but is expanding well beyond that, and is drifting towards, a partnership with SpaceX and other Elon Musk related companies.

The Data Center plan will be connectable with high capability robotics on the Moon.  While having some humans on the Moon is a good plan, I think, most manipulation of objects would be done by such a community of AI guided robots.

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If you want a possible business play, (th), "TSLA" (Tesla) may be partnered with SpaceX to build the space Data Centers.

If you own Tesla Stock, and SpaceX does an IPO, you might get consideration on getting a favorable opportunity to buy SpaceX IPO stock.
But that may be conditional on having the stock for some time period.  I don't know.

Peter Zeihan seems to think that TESLA is worthless.  But he also does not seem to be aware, that TESLA is working with Aluminum and Sodium Batteries.  P. Zeihan seems to think that they are subject to Lithium scarcity.

So, for these stocks, "Buyer Be Ware".  The danger is always actual.  But rewards are also possible.

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I see that you expressed an opinion about the President and tariffs.

And then you have stirred in most of the tool kit of virtue signaling.  NAZI, Racist, etc. 

You reveal that you are not much different than us.  You did not do the gender card yet though.  I guess because you are of the "M" gender.

My message to you was mostly that the surface story is shallow and does not account for deeper processes that we both should more properly be concerned about.

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But lets have a specific look at Tariffs.  I actually was a bit concerned about the actions taken by the President and his actions.  I think I am still waiting to see how the Legislature and Supreme Court behave.  Those two together have the powers to hobble what the President and company are doing if they want to.  But they seem to be allowing it.

https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R48435
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I myself consider that economics is basic to security.  So, I am willing to entertain that the President may do much of what he is doing with the understanding that the other powers could revise his permissions if they wanted to.

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So, now lets talk about NAZI, Justice, and Mercy.  The NAZI label is used with questionable evidence.  The most appropriate attachment of labels is to the Ukraine ethnic group which historically as a read from the internet, not all of them but some of them at certain times.  They worked in service for the WWII NAZI effort to make hostile actions against Jewish and Polish people.

I have not seen the MEGA expressing NAZI viewpoints.  It is quite likely that there are some NAZI sentiments in various places, but the MEGA policy does not seem to support a hateful set of actions of that sort.

Justice says that America is reserved for its Citizens, with some pathways for other non-citizens to join.  It is justified to remove violators, but it is not of a large mercy to do so.

When the process of exploiting mercy to judge America is used by outsiders such as from Brittain and West Europe, it is not moral.  If they feel that people removed from America should have mercy, then they can go to a place like Somalia, and spend their money to give mercy to the people that have been expelled.  Canadians are also permitted to spend their money, to help out people deported from America.  You can spend all your money on Mercy if you want to. 

Do, that before putting judgement on America.

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Vertical and Horizontal domination.

If we were to view the world as I do, two special polarities can be observed.  China and Sub-Saharan Africa could be considered for this.

All Caucasian genes and also the genes of Eurasians and Peripheral Africa exist between these two, and only marginally inside ot the two major polarities.  Eliminate the Oceans and you will discover that "We are all surrounded" by other groups.

Examine China Domination methods.  Minor ethnic groups are held in "Tribal" Zones.  This is horizontal control.

Vertical Domination is done more by the Sub-Saharan Africans.  There was a slave trade in the "Kongo", with or without any Caucasian "Genes".  Massive profits were given to these core kingdoms in the "Dark" of Africa, until the Brits and French stopped them.

https://www.worldhistory.org/Kingdom_of_Kongo/
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The first slave owner in the USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_J … (colonist)
Read about his background and ethnicity.
The Atlantic slave trade was an infection that pushed its way into America.  Something like Mafia, with profits allowing its expansion.

In the USA you can find a contrast between Horizontal and Vertical Domination.  The two do not always want to play nice together, and so the Civil War.

The Horizontal people do not want slavery for the reason that they might not want to be turned into "White Trash" and run off of their land by what they consider "Unfair Competition" by vertical slave owners.

And this slave culture is still trying to encroach on the Horizontal people.  So, Dixie has been in a game of conquest since about the Great Depression.  The Getto's, Slums, all an effort to encroach on the Horizontal people and give power to the "Owner Classes", who then exploit the the servant group that they sent to the Getto's/Slums.

The problem of West Europe is that it is mostly Vertical and so sees it's morality as supreme over that of North America and Russia/Eurasia.

The line of cities Dublin, London, Paris, Rome, Athens, Cario, all Vertical and feminine in nature.  The Harlots actually.  (At least some of the time).

So, at some point it should not surprise you that the USA does not want to be Western European.  We have our Eurasian part as well.

"Plantation Owners", in their gated communities, virtue signaling to an extreme of how superior they are.  They always think that they being the rich ruling class, they can master the situation to their advantage.

I have been told by a relative that the "Mansons" were of the opinion that a race war was to be, and that the so called "Blacks", would win it, but they would be so stupid that they would need the "Mansons" to rule over them.

And that is where I believe that the democrat party of course is the party of the Vertical.  And some of the rulers of that structure could be the Obama's. 

So, every place that Canadians might think themselves to a people of high morals above Americans, really you are just an import from  London and Paris, in a soup of Native American people of horizontal power.

We in America have worked on making the joining of the two powers, Horizontal and Vertical.  In Europe, they have done all they can to create basically an endless civil war between Eurasians and Eurafricans.  Canada is poised between America and Europe and your desire to avoid American solutions to reality only pots you as outsiders to this continent.

It was easy for Canadians to Judge Americans for Segregation, as it was also possible to use servant peoples to fight in the wars of your empire.  We in the North USA also Judged the ruling peoples of the "South" then we got what we disserved, judged by the world, which decided that they wanted to use any possible means to damage America.

So, per the Ukraine, at this time after all the wrong moves by West Europe and their fan people in the USA, a best solution is to split the land, and the ethnic parts, and bring an end to the killing.  Later it may be possible to try yet again to stich Europe into a more advanced culture.

You see we don't see ourselves as your inferiors, just a troubled people who have had to ray to make a better world.

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Looking at Firefly's propellant methods, caused me to think about the Dragon Draco engines:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperDraco
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And then there is this, for deorbit of the ISS: https://www.space.com/spacex-dragon-iss … n-revealed
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So, you would have Metha-Lox of some vendors, and Hydro-Lox of other vendors, and electric propulsion. and Hypergolic propulsions.

So, that might provide some interesting options.

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According to this video, the Orange Man cannot use the National Guard in sanctuary cities the way he was trying to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4M9YbxGAqc
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Merry Christmas!

Here is another article about Natural or Gold Hydrogen: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1SrJCA  Quote:

If it is true that Mars does have deep waters many km down and icy permafrost above it, then Mars may be very ideal for this

A point being that rather than pumping water up from so far down, if Natural Hydrogen from the water does exist, then you could create all the water you wanted anywhere on Mars by reacting the Hydrogen with CO2 from the atmosphere.

As a matter of fact, you could grow microbes that would do the reaction for you, producing food and heat.

This is an interesting article which deviates from the topic, as it says how to generate Methane from H2 and CO2 using a nuclear reactor.
https://www.earth.com/news/scientists-a … e-methane/
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https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/bi … 33753/full
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So, if it is true that both Earth and Mars, may have enormous Hydrogen deposits', then that can be a source of electricity, food, and heat.

A form of thinking on this would be factories in diving bell buildings in ice covered bodies of water.  If your industry occurs in such then then waste heat from the machines, can be distributed into the water.

And in addition, the waste heat itself might supply energy at times by rejecting it to atmosphere. 

In a special case should it be possible to extract water from polar ice to such a body of water, you could vent steam to the outside to turn a turbine.

Anyway, it would be quite an asset to have on both planets.

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