New Mars Forums

I have this feeling that we are working on the edge between phases of matter.  In this case not working red hot iron on a forge but posed between fluid and solid thoughts.  To drill down too deep is to solidify into an instance of a device, but then to become distant from the forge.  To be too fluid in thinking is to have the iron run off of the forge as a liquid.  So, to try to hold a pose that puts you held near the forge of thoughts.

The device of the prior post is like a "Hammer Throw" and I suppose a bit like Earth based "Spin-Launch".  These types of devices might be used in orbit.  But an alternative is tethers.  Tethers have a better chance of catching an object from a differing orbit.  But for now I will focus on launching mass to a different orbit.

The hammer of the forge causes a set of thoughts to gel in my mind, concerning Deimos/Phobos/Mars.  I believe I see something special.  It is as if a higher mind left these objects as they are as a test of progression of the human race.

Deimos has the best solar energy of the three.  Phobos has the next best solar energy of the three, and Mars itself has the least profitable solar energy of the three.  (Here I am indicating orbits and surfaces).

Phobos is in danger of being destroyed by tidal forces because it is so close to Mars.  But this could be turned into an asset.  The Martian atmosphere is thin and so of an advantage in launching from the surface.  But the thin atmosphere is not that good for atmospheric breaking of spaceships.  But it has some value for that.

From post #234:

Take note of the plan to crash expended canisters onto a spot on the Moon.'

Pause to review the above..............

So they think they can  lithobrake metal to "Poincare Basin": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincar%C3%A9_(crater)

What I am thinking is that if you make "Pig Iron" level products from Phobos you may eject them from Phobos and Aerobrake them in the atmosphere of Mars, and then Lithobrake to the surface.

I am imagining hollow teardrops as the ejected devices: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Teardrop_shape.svg
Image Quote:  

https://animalia-life.club/qa/pictures/ … -and-white
Image Quote:

The method of ejection could be tether or mass driver of some kind.

The "Tears", can be made of multiple substances, with part being magnetic Iron.

The peak heating of the Tears will be according to a ratio of surface area to mass.  So a hollow tear may have lots of surface area to mass.  This may keep the peak heating down.

Now if the object is crushable on impact that may advantage the process.  The Terminal velocity will be also a ratio of surface area to mass.

The device might have a one-time heat shield coating on its windward portions.

So, Phobos might be a great place to fashion "Teardrop" or if you like, "Raindrop" objects from upgraded materials from the raw materials of Phobos.

To do this energy is needed.  In the video it is suggested that mass might be transported to orbits of Mars using large nuclear reactors, and Neumann Drive or Magdrive.  So, then what do you do with the nuclear reactors.  To land a "Hot" nuclear reactor on Mars would be very troublesome in my opinion.  But if we are going to move mass from Earth/Moon to Deimos and Phobos, then the nuclear reactors can remain as assets at these moons.

But if you are in orbits of Mars, solar energy is very attractive.  Using mirrors at about the orbit of Deimos, I think that solar energy will be about 8 times as good as on the surface of Earth.  And at Phobos, I will guess that it could be about 5 to 6 times as good as on the surface of Earth.

So, if you could make a forge for teardrops on Phobos, you could also perhaps beam power down to that forge from Deimos, and also power to the surface of Mars, and also power to spaceships.

It is as if an high power arranged this for us.

To try to do all of this metal working on the surface of Mars would run into energy problems.

But if "Teardrops" can be recovered from the surface of Mars, first you collect them with magnetism, and then you cut them apart to separate the substances.  Then you reforge them at a relatively low energy expense.

The process of ejecting these "Teardrops" from Phobos downward, will lift the orbit of Phobos by tiny amounts, but the tidal grinding of the rubble of Phobos will draw it down towards Mars.

Pause..............

So, at Phobos Metal Propellants can be manufactured, and also "Teardrops", and then also Power stations, perhaps solar and perhaps nuclear.

At Deimos, power stations and Metal Propellants could be manufactured.

Both Moons would have excess Oxygen at least and perhaps Carbon and even possibly Hydrogen.

Whey a Neumann Drive and Magdrive may be power pigs, an Oxygen Mass Driver may not be so much so.  Also, Oxygen, Carbon, and Hydrogen can be for Chemical Propellants.

So, I do not dismiss the idea that propellants for Deimos could be moved to the Earth/Moon orbital positions.  It may not be practical, or something else like Moon resources may be more practical, but it is a thing that could be evaluated.

An Oxygen Mass Driver booster could push a payload to a high Martian Orbit, by being sent power by beaming from the power stations that might be built in orbit of mars from the materials of those moons.

We could expect that synthetic gravity will be provided in the orbits of Mars.

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I am thinking about Counter Spinning Launchers and Tether launches.

Tether Launches may be easier to understand.

If you have a mass such as Phobos or Deimos, or an artificial mass, you can hang a tether off of that mass, either to a higher orbital altitude or a lower orbital altitude.  Then you can release loads.  If you release to a higher altitude, then the highest extent of it's orbit will be above the end of the tether.  If you release to a lower altitude, then the lowest extent of it's orbit will be lower than the end of the tether.

The orbital energy of the anchoring mass will change inverse to the energy change of the object released from the tether.

With MagDrive and/or Neumann Drive, or with an Oxygen Mass Driver, the existing energy of orbit could be modified.  So, if you send more mass up from Phobos, you could raise the orbit of Phobos with these methods of propulsion.

Also if you manufacture things to pass down a tether to Mars you can raise the orbit of Phobos.
And if you manufacture things to pass up to a higher orbit, you can lower the orbit of Phobos.

The same will be true for Deimos.

I have been pondering the idea of two counterrotating masses.  It may be that something similar might be done with that.

I am not proposing a machine, per finished concept, but something to ponder.  I do not know if gyroscopic effects will bite me on this or not.

Blue if a flat elongated disk that can be stopped to have no rotation or can extract spin from the red flywheel.

In a stopped spin, a load depicted as green can be attached to the elongated disk.

Using magnetics, the elongated disk can be spun up by counter spinning the red flywheel.

The red flywheel will need to be very strong and have a lot of mass.  the portion shown may be an axle and perhaps away from it's central constriction of circumference, it may mushroom out to resemble a dumb bell or have its own flat disks.

The device can then cast the load in a prograde or retrograde of alternate direction, releasing it to carry some energy with it.  Then you may null the elongated disk (blue), and attach another load.  But this time you may spin against the red flywheel, in the other direction.  Again, releasing a load.  While this might seem like a perpetual motion scam, if you release an similar amount of retrograde and prograde loads, the assembly could hold a similar amount of orbital energy over an average of time.  (Not promising a clean circular orbit resulting).

Should your machine be LEI+ and you want to mostly send loads to a higher altitude of orbit, then your assembly will lose orbital energy which will require compensation.

A device such as a Magdrive or Neumann Drive or perhaps an Oxygen Mass Driver might be used to provide that.

I anticipate that for Mars orbit "Ore" from Phobos or Deimos could provide the mass for those propulsion systems.  But I also think that for Phobos and Deimos it would be likely that you could send up as much mass as you sent down.

I am hoping that the disk formations will help avoid gyroscopic flip flops.

Yes, it will need some very good magnetic bearing, but then terrestrial trains seem to have that.

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Referring to post #7 and also #8, (Thankyou offtherock):

Yes, that is likely, it seems.

Faults I see in the Common Public School System are many in my opinion, but we need to give thanks for what we received even so.

But the faults might be corrected by what is to come, even though it may be that we will discover faults in what is to come.

One Fault is the Trailer Park Fault.  This is where students of similar age, even so mature at a different rate.  So, you may have children who are not as ready as the other children.  This does not mean that they will not eventually be ready, but that they may be a sort of "Retarded".

The word "Retarded" simply means needing more time or could mean incapable, or not willing.

A human child is retarded to a chimpanzee child at certain stages.  A human childhood is longer than a chimpanzee childhood.

So, you can see the problem with Common Public School.  The objective should be to teach the student when the student is ready to learn the thing.  But that is not practical in an Assembly Line Common Public School Method.

To a certain degree we mostly or all get treated to some degree as if we are property.  When it can be afforded, freedoms are allowed.

This is why I have turned away from Liberal thinking.  I prefer to be Liberal but think we cannot afford the results of excessive Liberalism.
There has to be come amount of Conservation of the means of Liberty.  And so we have to reluctantly resort to more Conservative methods.

And I deeply resent the people who have squandered our liberty and made it necessary to apply constraints.

Anyway, the Trailer Park Fault, is where early developers are sometimes also cut short by early termination of further development.

The new system may make it possible for slow developers who retain the ability to learn like a child longer can be encouraged to learn longer and perhaps also to think.

But the dark cloud is, where such a child will be able to simply ask the answers to questions and get answers.  Then we might go back to rote memorization as the definition of "Smart".

If computers do dream for us, did we win?

That is a problem, perhaps.

Will a child have a "Perl of Knowledge" inserted into their brain and connected up like Nuralink,  Will that have everything an educated adult need for knowledge?

Will you inherit your ancestors' memories in "Perls".

Strange stuff.

So, at least at first good things, but than as always, some things of concern.

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So, in orbit there could be matter projectors that are linear or circular, or on a pivot.

Maybe there could be a Spiral Mass Driver.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral
Image Quote:

So, it may be possible to have a factory/habitat, that is spun up by the use of Electric Rocket propulsion or some other method, and to have a spiral path in it which will be a magnetic mass projector.  It may be that the walls of the tube push the load, or that an engine in the tube use the walls of the tube as a stator and serves as a armature to push the load.

If the load is pushed by an engine, it may be that means can be constructed to retain the engine and eject the load.

It is not wrong to think that two counter-spinning flywheels could support this.  Then their inertia could be used to generate the sudden need of a lot of electric power.  One of the flywheels could have the spiral tube for a Mass Driver/Projector.

I would imagine that the form of Electric Propulsion to spin the flywheels could either be electric rocket or motor.

But the altitude of the orbit would also need modification, which likely would be to push its orbital altitude upward from the central object that is being orbited.

So, two flywheels in spin opposition might be storage for energy that might be discharged at a high rate.  But you could use capacitors instead.

The spiral scheme is one where you can harvest the spin of the flywheel just by dropping it from te center to the outside of the flywheel.
But you could add additional speed using electromagnetics along the path.

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I see you have expressed opinions.

I have opinions also.  My opinion is that your words are opinions and nothing more than that.  And I don't agree with them.

You can have your opinions.  I can have mine.

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I have some concepts that obviously derived from other people concepts.  It is just possible that at times I may find a associated concept that seems to come from me.

Your question is very important.

The mind of humans is individual and collective.  The individual and the hive mind.

Pause..........

In my thought experiment.....

Females tend to have more verbal skills, and males may have more math skills and do have more special relations skills.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_relation

You will notice that verbal skills relate to the hive mind.

A female teacher of mine in high school said that it is feminine men who become chiefs of a tribe.  Often an alpha male very good as a warrior who seems dominant, but a male with verbal skills obviously can work better with both female and male tribe members.

Having verbal and perhaps art skills, a tribal library can be created, perhaps only oral tradition, and some rock paintings, but this becomes a primer for the direction that the young will develop.

So, "Library" is read only memory. The Hive mind joins the separate individuals together.  But the Individual is more likely to add to the "Library".  If you are deep into the hive mind, you do not favor the new but recall the old.

So, a community such as a nation or other entity such as a belief system can think, and recall.  It can regard something.

For instance, the EU regards the American interest in Greenland in a negative way.  They don't understand that we need it so that we can create clothing optional resorts for our A.W.F.U.L.'s from Minnesota.

Visitors will have their eyes blindfolded first.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

I am going to take this liberty to posture a notion about human intergender process, that may cause the fall of an empire.

We know that many animals require acceptance from a female before a procreative act is allowed.
Dolphins rape, so there are exceptions.  But rape is a test of sorts.  (I can hear the screams).  No, I do not regard it to be a acceptable thing.

But the mechanics for procreation usually require a sperm cell to meet an egg cell in a nurturing situation.  I think that it is truth to say that that is not always done in ways that we want to accept.  Sometimes brute strength allows it.

But often females expect a contest between males.

And there may be the problem.  There is what her consciousness says to her she as wants.  There is what she says she wants.  But there is what do here genes want?

Pause..............

She mostly has the same genes as a male, but here epigenetics control how the genes are expressed in reality.

A tested example of this is for the avoidance of inbreeding.  Sisters tested to small brothers T-Shirts will be relatively repulsed by the odor but may accept a non-relative's odor in preference.

So, could the female population of a tribe/nation turn traitor to its male population?  And under what circumstances?

IN the Roman Empire it seems to have happened.  It appears from stories and rumors that females attaining high status, may have felt that their population had no worthy males.  So, then that may have cause them to make damage to the society, to pull down their own house so that it could be raped by a more powerful set of outside males.

It is perhaps like a drug where you cannot ever get enough.  You finally got on top of the Men and got some wealth, and yet you want more, and resent that you are not getting more.

Western Europe is likely enjoying being raped at this time as it is.  The USA is barely managing to say NO!

You have to consider that Nature does not value intelligence, unless it perpetuates genes.

So, females will not select for intelligence, only dominance.

Lots of good materials for you to condemn in this post.

The question of Neoteny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny

It is my opinion that societies that allow more power for males in mate selection will become more Neotenous.  They are selecting for there opposite.  (China?  Japen?).

Cultures which give more power to the females will become more robust, in my opinion.  Females exploit cucks, but when they are most fertile are compelled to seek the masculine robust.

The Hairiest men are in the middle east, I think, but that is only one aspect of Neoteny.
https://www.curlcentric.com/what-ethnic … Caucasians.
Quote:

You would think that north Europeans would be the hairiest, but they are not, it seems.

Carl Young, I seem to recall indicated that Catholics are Feminine.  But Muslims, Protestants, Jewish People and Communists are Masculine.

But most of those have only existed for a number of centuries at most.  So, their previous cultures may have been feminine.

I have deviated a bit, but the interaction of collections of individuals and their cultural roots could affect their epigenetics over time and also even the predominance of genetic traits, among those being the contrast between Efficient/Capable, Gracile/Robust, and other polarities that may experience deviation/drift over time.

Hurl some outrage at me or some insults, or ask some questions.

Ending Pending :)

Spin Launch is a load attached to a center of spin.

A circular mass driver could be a track on the rim of a Lunar crater.  And so it may not have a central pivot point.

A Mass Driver in orbit could have a center pivot anchor or be of a circular track with no pivot.

In the case of a circular track, the load may be accelerated by circling the track many times.  Then at a certain point a method to release the load from the track is needed.

In the above cases the mass driver is imagined as being stationary, even if not really true.  The Mass Driver then send loads to an alternate location.

But a ship might have a Mass Driver mounted on it.  And it could expel loads to create a action/reaction propulsive method for the ship.

For this one Oxygen could be convenient as throw mass, as near the Earth/Moon and likely near Mars/Phobos/Deimos, the Oxygen can be expected to vaporize when subject to a heat source such as sunshine.

This would keep the travel routes free of Oxygen collision hazards.

Oxygen when liquid or solid, I believe is paramagnetic, so might be manipulated directly with a magnetic field.

I am interested in Iron Oxide in Space, because using a method to roast it with Hydrogen you can extract the Oxygen indirectly into water, and then split the water expel the Oxygen, reuse the Hydrogen and have Iron that you could use as propellant or for building structure.

Saying that and understanding that accidents happen, it would be important to not have an explosive event scatter lots of Iron Oxide material in an orbit.  The Moon has self-cleaning orbits.  In those orbits, an object will over time eventually collide with the Moon.  So, a ship can be OK in such an orbit as long as it has a means to maintain orbit, using a propulsive device.

For Earth orbits it might be better to use water, and so for instance if you had Carbon, you could split the water, eject the Oxygen for propulsion and make Methane out of the Hydrogen and Carbon, then sell the Methane, possibly for use in association with Lunar activities.

For Mars orbit, I guess you just need good hygiene.  Water is easier to lift from Mars than from Earth.  But Iron Oxide could be manufactured from the substances of Phobos and Deimos.

I hope that helps (th).

Ending Pending

From post #241: Quote:

The above "Omega Loops" could be two circles and not two ovals, so then this is rather complex, as it has a central pivot point and yet two oval or circular tracks.

Thems are sort of wheels within a wheel.

The whole mass is a flywheel, which can be spun up with a propulsive method.  I am thinking Neumann Drive or Magdrive, but could be an Oxygen Mass driver or something else.

The "Loops" are tracks of slides if you like.  I have imagined an engine with a load that could "Fall" down though the synthetic gravity to the end of the oval loop and drop its load overboard to launch it.  The engine then coasts back up to the pivot point.

But of a "Loop" were circular, you could spin around it a number of times, but there would be significant stresses to the structure doing that like an unbalanced washing machine.  You could do it though, but the structure might need fortification.

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So, I mentioned the things I think can be practical for space propulsion:
1) Chemical
2) Electric Ion
3) Centrifugal Launch
4) Mass Drivers.

I have mentioned "Oxygen Mass Driver", and there is some reason to think it could be a method of propulsion for a ship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver
https://lunarpedia.org/w/Mass_Drivers
Quote:

Lunarpedia mentions this:

That is something I have not studied very much.  I wonder if an induction motor method might allow Oxygen ice chips to be accelerated though a tube and then "Vented" in a particular direction?

Anyway, if you think about it the Moon could provide Oxygen, but also Phobos and Deimos could as well.

Some near Earth Asteroids may be accessible and perhaps their Oxygen could be used in propulsion.

Ending Pending

The fact that these devices would spin, suggests that synthetic gravity treatments for humans could be in association with these devices.

It is possible that these devices could be in circular orbits or elliptical orbits.  They may benefit from having mass where the mass if part of a flywheel, and also life support aspects.

Spooled Tether, in a tunnel, that can unwind like a casting rod.

Although the drawing is defective, the "Load" could be hooked up in the central space where the spool is and then the load could be pushed out of the central area though the tube, and the cable to unreel moving the spin energy from the structure more to the load.  And then by some method the load could be unhooked, to be accelerated to an altered orbit.

The device may have multiple floors not shown in the drawing.

Humans and Robots could be hosted inside the structure.

Ending Pending

From the previous post:

To this you could add Orbital Ship Launch Mass Driver, and T.A.R.S.

Calliban introduced this some time back:
TARS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97MlXLBYUdw

I would think to modify it though to be a spinning rail type Mass Driver.

I was looking at something like that in this post: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 67#p235367
Quote:

Keep in mind that this is new puzzling so do not expect final forms:

OK, so you could perhaps use a Neumann Drive or MagDrive to spin up a rail type system that a mass driver rail  propulsion could be associated with.

If SpaceX gets a Mass Driver on the Moon working, then it could send materials to build a device like this.  So, a spaceship might get a quick boost from such an orbital system.

It could be just a electric train type system, but that of course would not give much acceleration, but still even 1/10 of a ships speed to a destination provided would change the "Rocket Equation" nicely.

Ending Pending

Actually, the main function of the electric train would be to keep it bonded to the rails and the spin would cause the payload to accelerate as it traveled down from the center to the end of one loop.

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Well, this may after all be a maybe,

Oh well!

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So, going forward, Chemical Rockets, and Electric Rockets seem to be the two practical paths I have so far looked at.  These are both "Mass Projectors".

In the case of Electric Rockets, I think it could be fair to call them a form of Mass Driver, as well as Mass Projectors.

Mass Drivers seem to be a sort of machine that expels matter, using electric energy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver
Quote:

So, some have thought about casting dust our of a mass driver with the hope that the forces of the sun, Solar Wind, or Photons, will push it away from the "Shipping Lanes".

But of course, I am interested in expelling Oxygen from a Mass Driver, to propel a spacecraft.  Probably ice cubes of Oxygen.

So, if that were possible then of course many worlds are full of Oxygen, including the Moon.

So, there would be 3 methods of propulsion that I think are practical:
1) Chemica.
2) Electric Ion (Argon, Metals).
3) Mass Driver (Dust, Oxygen Ice).

Ending Pending