New Mars Forums

I like that this is getting towards rational.  Not quite perfect but much better than notions of the past.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnMuL5rBoXw
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I do not think that sunlight only and vitamin D are the only part of the issue.

The vitamin D issue is also modified by wearing clothing and by staying indoors.  When it is cold, if you can afford to you stay indoors more and you wear clothes if you can.  This blocks even the sunlight you get in the winter.

India and Europe are different in other ways.  If you have to work outside in India, and the work is going to overheat you may expose more skin.

This then gives less permission for the skin to turn lighter.

And is pigment worth the trouble?  Is it even possibly a burden?  Why do cave creatures lose pigment?  I guess it must not be worth it to have it in a sunless environment.

https://sciety.org/articles/activity/10 … .14.664374
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So, I speculate that even if humans could generate vitamin D, as very distant ancestors are said to have been able to do, decreased exposure to sunlight may have promoted a skin lightening anyway.

Pigment is either a burden for the body to make, or might even be toxic to some degree, but more helpful than harmful in sunny exposures.

The burden issue is demonstrated by pale cave creatures.  (The best part is no part).  So, they get rid of it.  But the toxic issue, I have no evidence for, just speculation.

I think it is best to understand that skin tones are not Majic, but simply things that can be understood.

But as they said you also do need access to some sort of genetic method to lose pigment to have lighter skin.

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This material is a bit supportive of materials in this topic: https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lif … r-AA1WO7dU
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Solar panels not only provide shade, but also potentially increase the surface area of the "Surface".

I think that the situation could be improved even more.
https://globalenergyprize.org/en/2025/0 … di-arabia/
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The notion is to add to the already listed benefits.

-The gel absorbing moisture from the air at night,
-Gives it up to the air during the day.
-Using forced convection, the moist air is conducted through a pipe network that is also the supports for the solar panels.
-The ground being shaded and cool may condense the moisture into liquid water, which leaks out of the pipe in the soil to water plants.

I anticipate as others do that robots will lower the cost of hardware, perhaps justifying this method.

Didn't think of it before but the plants, seeking CO2 will give up moisture to the gel, the soil will as well.

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So, regolith on Mars is one thing, sand another, clay another thing as well.

https://www.jsg.utexas.edu/news/2025/06 … ient-life/
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Traditionally we think of using high temperatures to set clay into pottery or bricks.

It is thought that some Mars soil can be compressed into bricks.

But I am wondering if bio-welding might be possible of course I mentioned it in the previous post.

While I suggested piling fresh created permafrost as a form to make a shell over, perhaps a dry pile of regolith might be used, if you put down a vapor barrier on top of it and a tent over it that could holed some pressure temporarily.

Once again, the vapor pressure calculator may be helpful: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

If I understand the Urine Brick process room temperatures may be sufficient for the microbes.
So for 20 C > 23.2977 mbar

So the tent above the work area might be put to a pressure of 25 millibars if that is correct.

So methods to anchor it to the ground using stakes and cables, perhaps and perhaps piling regolith on its perimeter.  And then simply compressing Martian atmosphere into it.

I don't know if that would satisfy the needs of the microbes or not.  You might mix the clay with foods for the microbes I suppose you could start with a urine simulant.  Pack layers of clay down, perhaps mixed with a sand like material if available.  Perhaps also putting down several layers of mesh of plastics, metals, Carbon, Mineral Fibers???

For radiation concerns you might make it 2 or 3 meters thick.  But Mars has some atmospheric shielding for radiation and you might also stack loose regolith on top of it anyway.

In a vertical direction you would need about 100 feet of water or 110 feet of water ice to compress to 1 bar on Mars.
But presuming that regolith is at least 3 times as heavy then you need about 1/3 of that.

IF the air compression inside the dome is to be 1/2 bar of an N2/O2 mix, then 1/6th of 100 feet. (Very rough estimating).

So, about 5.05968 meters, I guess.

So, if the dome is 3 meters thick then you could put 2 or 3 meters of regolith on top of it.  As it would be a dome or an arch, it should not collapse under the weight and the weight should allow a atmosphere of 500 mbar inside of it.

In some cases, I would like to figure out how to build such things under thick ice layers or at the bottom of covered water reservoirs.

I still don't know if Urine Bricks can be made with Clay.

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I have been working on the notion of "Stone" habitats in orbit.  I have considered Ceres or perhaps other assets in the asteroid belt to be good places to try to do it.

I have wondered if it could be done in orbits of Mars, where you may have to lift Ammonia from Mars surface to orbit and then also use the materials of Phobos and Deimos.

And I still wonder about that.  But now, I would like to think of adapting it to the surface of Mars.

Here is the orbital materials which might be translatable to that idea: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 67#p238267  Post #30 of "Index» Terraformation» Rubble Pile Sinter/Glass Jar/Double Cone, Ceres"

To be blunt, can we make a sone igloo?

Presuming that Mars surface materials have been processed, perhaps to get certain things out of them such as Iron, then the tailings might be incorporated into "Stone Domes".

I know everybody wants pretty glass domes with Unicorns in them, but I want a workhorse dome, not a Unicorn.

I presume that you have to get down to bedrock for the dome.  Then I suggest piling up regolith.  If you had a good source of water, could you cast permafrost?  Granted, Mars wants to dry it out, but drying out takes time.  You have a good source of water and can keep the permafrost moist.  You make a mound.  You put a temporary tent over it.  That will help keep the moisture in.

You then can use a microwave to melt just the outer few inches of the permafrost into mud. You add bacterial foods such as urine/urea.  You let the bacterial or other microbes cure it into rock.  You may have only one patch of the mound actively warm at a time.  You add more layers, starting at the base and moving up.  The Mars soil may be clay-like in places so this might be workable.

But the microbes have to work in rather cool temperatures, otherwise te permafrost mound will melt.

If this works, then after you have created a dome with a thickness of 2-3 meters, you may then enter the permafrost though a planned entrance of some kind and melt the mud that is interior to the dome and remove the mud as water vapor and regolith.

I think I can already improve on this.

Make your permafrost mound as a form, then put a layer of insulating Styrofoam on top of it.  Enclose this in a tent, then begin placing a clay-like mud on top of the Styrofoam and keep it warm with microwaves, keep it moist and add foods for the microbes.  You may only warm one patch of the dome at a time, to keep the permafrost mound frozen.

You may add things like a mesh of some substance, something similar to rebar and so on, to increase strength.

The enclosing tent has to be somewhat pressurized, otherwise a water phase is hard to establish at a temperature suitable for microbes.

Perhaps after the dome is made, you might pile dry regolith on top of it to thermally insulate it and to provide counterpressure to allow the interior of the dome to be pressurized.

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I have been wondering why the Romans who spoke an Indo-European language, had a lot of trouble conquering those to the north of them?  That is to an extent.  It is weird to my mind that perhaps the more Yamnaya inheritance a population had, they harder it was for them to create a income generating province.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire
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So, although they must have had some Yamnaya heritage themselves, provinces they created needed to be profitably farmable, and have a population of people that they could control.  The populations they might easiest control would be the descendants of the ancient farmers of the Anatolia origins, I speculate.  At some point they abandoned England as it was not paying off.

So, agriculture with passive captive peoples was their paycheck.  The Farmers provided the passive captive peoples.  All they had to do was decapitate a society and then install their approved flunkies.  The Yamnaya blood might not easy to domesticate.

The "Little Ice Age" came significantly after that time: https://www.bing.com/search?q=How+did+t … pc=EDGEXST  Quote:

So, I speculate that periodic farming collapse may have favored a less obedient Yamnaya heritage over the relatively passive Anatolian farmer heritage.

England was worth the trouble for a time, but Pictland was more trouble than it was worth.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts
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The Greeks do not seem to have had an identical pattern.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece
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It may or may not mean something, but the Greeks seem to have had an almost equal exposure to the Black Sea as the Mediterranean Sea.

The Greeks may have been a bit more Yamnaya and less farmer than the Romans became at one point.

I regard the area of the Caspian Sea and Black See as a genetic and cultural mixing Zone.

I think that India has one, and that North America and South America have one as well.

As a nursery for accumulation of useful attributes, I think these zones are rather good.

But I think that the farmer cultures, breed such attributes out of the population, to create a submissive surf class and a psychopathic ruling class.  Neither of the two classes retain the desired skillful attributes in my opinion.

But farming is necessary to maintain large populations and so-called civilizations.

So, a farmer "Civilization" may burn-out, and then become subject to more capable people moving sideways on the map and taking over.

A farmer "Civilization" also may burn out as it may damage its soils over time and may exhaust the local mineral and forest resources.

From my point of view, the Middle East is burnt out.

Greenland burned out as well, the soils wore out and wood perhaps not available as much, then the "little Ice Age".

I am still working on this.

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So, far up until now for the greater part orbital reuse of space junk is not significant.  So, rockets have been focused on the payload.

I don't know that it will ever emerge, but a non-cargo mass to orbit concept might emerge eventually.  That is if the 2nd stage materials are regarded as having sufficient value for reuse, 2nd stages without payloads might be considered.

For instance, a non-reusable Starship might be built so that it has no payload but increased dry mass.  The economic circumstances for this may never emerge, but I just want to contemplate such a thing.  In the case of Starship, we are largely considering Stainless Steel as the material, but if you increase the amount of dry mass you allow, you might substitute other materials with a lower performance so that the Starship was not as Mono-Material in nature.

And this would only make sense, if the value of the materials in orbit were sufficient.  This could be true, if you intended to help build hardware with a good payoff such as Starlinks and Data Centers.

I guess we might think of the current Starship under development as a High Breed Racehorse.  Tuned to do the almost impossible.

But what I am suggesting is a Mule, not showy, but of economic importance.

So, although it is hoped to get some stuff from the Moon, this might get stuff to orbit earlier, and perhaps of materials not obtainable from the Moon.

And as the 2nd stage is intended for a one-time launch from the surface of the Earth, it can be built without the constrictions that reuse imply.

So, you might get away with including more Aluminum, Lithium, and Carbon for example.  These substances are lighter anyway.  You might make the propellant tanks still largely of Stainless Steel but then might make much of the rest of the ship of other materials which often may be lighter.

As for the Raptors, perhaps those would be returned to the surface of the Earth, with 2nd stages that are capable of return.  Reusable Starship and the 2nd stage of Stoke Space look like possibilities.

Some suggestions have it that a onetime Starship could lift 250 tons of payload.  So, perhaps you lift 250 tons of what you need, and then you take the ship apart.

The propellant tanks might be put into space stations as pressurized volume.  Of course, they then need actional mass to make them habitable.  The Avionics and engines to be brought down to Earth perhaps.  Then the rest of the dry mass and the cargo mass, may be recycled.  It seems that Aluminum might be the most easily recycled.  Perhaps the upper part of the ship if of Aluminum, could be converted into radiators for Data Centers.

Anyway, I think that the Superheavy, once established as useful and reliable, might be largely as it is now, of Stainless Steel.  And I think it might be usable to lift 2nd Stages for other rocket vendors who may or may not have Stainless Steel as the major component.

I am thinking of sized-up versions of Terran-R (Aluminum), Rocket Lab (Carbon), and Stoke Space 2nd Stage (Stainless Steel???).

Anyway as conversation, it is not wrong to ask these questions about such possibilities.  At least I think that it is OK.

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My logic for synthetic gravity in a double cone is that the ring with highest gravity is not likely to be required all day long for a human.  At least I suspect that.

People do not spend 24 hours a day standing and straining in a 1 g gravity.  If much of your day is at 1 g, you might have your bedroom somewhere with lesser gravity.

But time will tell.  It seems likely that some humans of some kind will live some of the time on the Moon, and we will get some information on physical reactions to 1/6 g for humans and test biology.  That may tell us important things.

I see the double cone as being intermediate between the torus, and the cylinder.  I have shown where a Torus could be put into the Double Cone Structure.

So, you could put the typical spokes into it like a Starford Torus, but I think it is just easier to walk up the incline to get to the null gravity points on each apex of each cone.

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So that living in orbit of Ceres might not seem a grim thing, I have added a possible method of greenhouse.  Very low gravity and at least somewhat lighted.

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I was inspired by a utube video in part about how NASA uses hydrogen containing compounds as radiation shielding on Orion, and that Starship can afford to carry some of that such as Poly........

Anyway, I am looking a little further about external cargo on ships such as foam filled bags.  And multi-use of components.

An advantage of external cargo foam bags, is that they might be filled in LEO, and so not have normal constraints on fairing size for lift to LEO.

On the Left a Nose-Bag composed of several parts, might give radiation shielding and also ride on the nose.

I have previously thought of solid rocket boosters that would be used to propel a ship to the Moon (In part), and in the right drawing show how the burned out solids could perhaps be used as landing legs.  Some of the padding of the Nose-Bag might then be attached to those as cushioning feet.

Probably this requires the means to make these metamorphic changes in Lunar orbit prior to a landing attempt.

The Nose-Shield may be of value for traveling through the Van Allen Belts, and also if there is a solar eruption in flight.  Also helpful for reducing total astronaut exposure to radiation.

Upon landing it may be that the Landing feet could be removed and used as a resource for radiation protection or some other need.

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I want to clone a post here as I want to expand on it beyond Ceres: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 79#p238179 From "Index» Terraformation» Ceres", Post #188.

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I regard the double cone shape as of interest, as it might be made of large compressive blocks of materials, and yet wrapped in tensile materials to hold it together.  One method to make the blocks is in a form where regolith can be glued together using a Urea-Microbe method.

I think that the blocks could be glued together with something like tar, and that a balloon inside could further assure air tightness.

An internal spin gravity device could be relatively light weight, like an aircraft structure.  It would only have full gravity in a ring at it's largest perimeter, and only when at full speed.

The block structures not themselves spinning could be attached to others of their kind to form very large assemblies.

If facilities at locations similar to Ceres could mass produce these, then some of them could be put into elliptical orbits around the sun to merge with major terrestrial crossing asteroids, and to then consume them.

Some of these might then eventually be made synchronous to a world that has a largely circular orbit around the sun.  So they would do repeat returns like a boomerang.

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Is this right???  Well, I admit that looking back in time, it seems as if when push comes to shove, the Europeans and their masters, would rather undercut America than to accept it as more than a servant who shovels poo in their pony barn.

They would rather scuttle the fleet than allow us to become what we can become, is my sense of a possible truth.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
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But I will keep looking to see if I am wrong about it.

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I want to bring something here from also: "Index» Business Proposals» Data Centers (Including Off World)"
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 30#p238130
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 35#p238135

The physical logic for Earth is in contrast with the physical logic of the Moon.
Since the focus in space is at least for a time shifted to the Moon, the logic of hardware will be different.

For Mars, Starship made of Stainless Steel, also works as you need the heat shield.  But for the Moon Aluminum or Carbon might be attractive.

Granted, there is some good logic in sending a Starship to stay on the Moon.  If it came to the Moon with cargo and would then be converted to some use on the Moon as habitat.  Putting a regular Starship with full faps and heat shield, on the  Moon is possible, but not that adaptive.

There are two logics for the binary world Earth/Moon.  (We are not allowed to call Earth/Moon a binary planet, but I thin binary world is allowed).

It is hoped that over time, activity on the Moon will shift to use of local resources as much as possible.

But at least for initial setup, you might have a "Startup Method".  While it might be impressive if you could make a gun out of rocks, it may be more practical to bring one, at first.  I understand that guns are not the tool of importance on the Moon, but from a historical notion of the pioneer, this logic is obvious.  Eventually you may make tools out of rocks, but at first it may be better to bring the starter tools, to accelerate Lunar development.

Blue Origin and others have plans to make a variety of "Tools", like solar panels out of Moon rocks.  But these may be low quality, at least without brining special chemicals to the Moon.

NASA wants to bring a nuclear reactor to the Moon, and of course it will be a long time before nuclear fission reactors can be made from the rocks of the Moon.  Imported Nuclear reactors would be a good initiation tool, but have entanglements in National and International relationships.

SpaceX/Elon Musk\G. Shotwell, seem to want to rely on solar panels on the Moon, but do not specify import or Insitu for the method to render them into existence on the Moon.

I am looking to expand the utility of delivery methods to the Moon both for full import method or a hybrid.  A Hybrid method may include bringing, some of the materials to make and energy producing device to the Moon.  I often look for such a option.

Looking at Starship, I also am thinking of external cargo.  I am looking at "Drop Cargo" as one such method.  Typically we think of Moon Cargo as being carried inside of a Starship.  But a Lunar Starship could have pairs of cargo attached to its outsides, that would be dropped just prior to landing the ship.

The Starship has vastly more engine power than what it needs to land on the Moon.  At least that is what I understand.

I am looking at such drop cargo as a startup pathway to get very useful materials to the Moon with a lower cost: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 24#p238124
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So, "Airbags" filled with Urea-formaldehyde, might be dropped from a landing ship just prior to landing.
If done wrong, this might lead to a collision on landing, if the cargo bounces back at the ship as it is landing.
But if done correctly, you reduce the dry mass of the ship just prior to landing, and so reducing the landing method rigors.  (Landing Legs).

Such a content of "Urea-Formaldehyde" could have many uses on the Moon.  Easy use would be to make a radiation shield for a Starship placed on it's side.  You may be able to mix to materials with Lunar Regolith to make such a radiation shield.

Various other pathways would exist for this material to be useful.  You could extract the component chemicals, and perhaps produce some Urea and water.  Then use that to cement regolith into solid objects, using microbes.

The Carbon and Hydrogen could be reformed to sponsor Mushroom growth and also mycelium to again glue regolith into blocks.  Or Mushrooms and mycelium to make things not including regolith.

But also other things could be included into the foam inside of the "Airbag".  Chlorides of Metals and other substances perhaps.  Maybe in small packets inside of the foam.

We may hope to get Chlorine from Moon rocks, but as with many things, at least at first bringing the substance makes for a faster startup of capabilities on the Moon.  The Metals of other substances might serve to "Dope" things like Solar Calls to make on the Moon.

I am under the impression that "Salt Mining" using Chlorine could allow a lower temperature extraction of Iron from regolith.  The Chlorine supposedly can be recycled to go ahead and get more Iron in that manner.

I think that the above process may liberate the Oxygen which is tied to the Iron.  Another method to extract Oxygen from Iron in Regolith is to use Hydrogen and Heat.  This process is said by some to be regenerative, as Lunar regolith does contain small amounts of Hydrogen, and the process may recover that as well as the Hydrogen initially available.

It can be noted that the "Airbag" foam will contain Carbon and if salts are added will include substances allowing Iron to be made into Steels for some kind.

My impression is that Aluminum may be harder to extract from the Lunar Regolith.

So, I am interested in the Terran-R rocket for that reason.  My impression is that the Terran-R will be made primarily of Aluminum, and will not have the ability to re-enter the Earth's atmosphere without burning up.  We are going to have to limit the amount of materials that we burn up in the atmosphere, and the Terran-R is still a useful object, (Probably) once in LEO.

If Starship could refill the Terran-R, it could likely go part-way to the Moon at least from LEO.  I don't have the numbers on tankage for it. 
But we could "Wish" to get it to the Moon with at least a drop cargo.  The Drop-Cargo being the Foam filled airbags I have previously mentioned.

Even without putting landing legs on the Terran-R, if it has the fuel and does not malfunction it may be able to get such airbags close to the surface of the Moon, release them and then crash.  IF you put landing legs on a Terran-R, perhaps they could be propulsive.  As drop tanks or perhaps, solid rockets.

For instance, if Starship could bring solid rocket legs to LEO and they be attached to the Terran-R, the legs can burn to help get the assembly to the Moon.  The shells empty of propellant may still serve as crushable landing legs.  The landing legs might be of Aluminum, but that is not typically preferred.

Here is a depiction of a possible instance of such a use:

In LEO, a Starship brings the solid booster landing legs to attach and the drop foam bags.  Perhaps another Starship refills the Terran-R.

The Terran-R burns the landing legs to empty, using its engine to steer, (I hope).

The Assembly prepares to land on the Moon.  At a suitable altitude the "Drop Bags" drop.  The Terran-R attempts to land using its Metha-Lox engine(s), and uses the burned-out leg boosters as crushable landing Legs.

Hard to say if the Terran-R ever is reused after that or becomes a source of useful metals.

So, a partnership between two types of ships makes sense to me.

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I have thought about this some more, there can be some question about orbital and Lunar markets for scrap materials and reuses.

Just to keep a narrow focus, Suppose SpaceX and Relativity Space would form a partnership to some degree.

Terran-R 2nd stage is to be of Aluminum, I believe, and of course Starship is to be Stainless Steel and that with the full recovery mass as sell, if it is to land back on Earth.  Recovery equipment includes Header Tanks, Heat 'Shield, and Return Propellants, and features for a Landing Method.

Terran-R not to be recovered would have none of that and would be of Aluminum.  Even so it is to be able to lift 33 1/2 Tons to LEO.  What if Starship could refill it with Methane and Oxygen?

As Ii see it, a Starship/Terran-R partnership could work very well for the Moon.  Lots of options once you are in LEO.

For instance, how many Starship tankers would it take to fill a Terran-R?  If needed, could you put drip tanks on the Terran-R once in LEO?

Once you have a Terran-R in orbit, perhaps you could add Drop Tanks to it, that also serve as landing Legs?

Now as far as power goes, as far as I have seen, a 2nd stage is way overpowered to land on the Moon.  At least true for Lunar Starship.

And if you like you can attach cargo to the outside of the Terran-R once you are in LEO.

So, in this case you might have a Starship that brings landing legs that also are drop tanks up to the Terran-R.  It might also bring extra cargo to attach to the outside of the Terran-R.  Then you might need at least one Starship Tanker to fill the Terran-R and it's Drop Tank Landing Legs.

In this case then the Starship would not go to the Moon.  The rigged-up Terran-R would and would land with its Cargo and Drop Tanks.

The Terran-R and Drop Tank Legs being of Aluminum, would be of value on the Moon, as it is easier to recycle Aluminum than to get it out of the regolith of the Moon, I expect.

OK, I tried to get the dry and wet mass of the 2nd stage, But I think I got bad numbers.

But I think the idea is not a bad one.

An alternative would be to have a Starship escort the Terran-R 2nd Stage to Lunar Orbit, and use the Terran-R as a repeat lander.

Some of my thinking on this is that it looks like Iron will be relatively easy to get out of Lunar Regolith, but Aluminum may be harder.  Recycling used Aluminum, on the Moon from landers that did a useful task, seems like an option to look into.

Of course I have gotten some of this thinking from Space Startup News.  https://www.spacestartupnews.com/

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