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As always, I have the potential to be wrong. 

I have been thinking about an "Upstairs Starship".  This would be a Starship which typically does not land on the Earth but maybe at times might land on the Moon.

I am thinking that it would be made of "Ferroaluminum": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferroaluminum

The Melting point would be 1250 C, I think, which is lower than Stainless Steel.  But it is corrosion resistant.

It would have less weight and less inertia.  So aerobraking to aerocapture might be possible.  Of course, it would have to be refilled by a "Standard Starship".

The objective would normally be to not dive too deep into the atmosphere before skipping off, to keep peak heating down.

But it would not be forbidden to have supplemental protections such as tiles and active cooling.  It might be possible to have ports in the belly what would allow fluids to be injected under the belly.  Ideally this cooling method could also be used in navigation though the atmosphere.

The purpose of a machine like this would be to take possession of a package from a "Standard Starship" and bring it to a higher orbit.

This would probably be for freight.

It is possible that it could be in association with a Electric Rocket System.

This then would be a intermediary between a "Standard Starship", and an Electric Rocket System.

So, the "Standard Starship" might refill it with Methane and Oxygen but also perhaps an Argon/Xenon mix.  The Electric Rocket System with large solar panels staying out of the atmosphere even at very high altitude would provide shade and cooling power to keep the boil-off problem under control.

Perhaps the Electric Rocket System, would not go as low as the ISS is to reduce drag.  (Perhaps).

The "Upstairs Starship", then being linked to the Electric Rocket System could as a hybrid travel to an orbit of the Moon.  To come back, the combination  might separate at some point so that the "Upstairs Starship" could use air braking to get it down to take payload from a "Standard Starship".

And of course I am hoping that eventually the Electric Rocket System could be switched to a metal propellant such as Neumann Drive or Magdrive might allow. 

In that case, refilling could be done at the Moon orbit.  Both Metals propellants, and Oxygen.

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I wish to innovate on the basis of a post from (th): https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 57#p235457
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In the area where there are ice slabs we might mine ice and create "Dust Trips".  Extracting the ice and leaving a hole.

The only problem with this is we have to make sure that we pack enough dirt onto the walls of ice left behind so that the ice body does not keep evaporating.

While many who think of mining this ice will think to blast and collect or liquify, I am of the view that forced sublimation may be best.

How about a big hovercraft balloon with skirts?  It is to have a tank to compress Mars air into, and then may periodically release the air under it to become temporarily mobile.  The Balloon may become a condenser for water, as heat applied under it would evaporate a trench, and the air sucked in then compressed and the Mars environment being cold condensation may result.

The device may have a following skirt that will tail in the trench which is being created.

Heat is applied under the device to cause buried ice to waste into water vapor.  The water vapor is sucked into a compressor and so condensed into liquid water, and perhaps Ice.

Water Trucks should then come to take away the collected water to a desired purpose such as Fuel for Starships or greenhouses, etc.

A balloon hovercraft would be lightweight and so relatively easy to move with bursts of compressed air under it and with longer intervals of harvesting water.  The Balloon itself might be the reservoir of compressed air to do the movement.

The resulting trench may possibly demobilize dust that falls into it.

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(th) This is just to remind you that I have been working in a similar direction to your objectives: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 11#p235211

Not Van Neumann of Mars Trees, but a collaboration of Mars Biomechanical Trees with the efforts of machines/robots, and Humans.

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From post #26 Calliban said:

I am revisiting the ideas of Moon formation.  Collision? Other?

Quote:

https://www.zmescience.com/feature-post … eters-rep/
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I am going to speculate that the Moon may have water vapor emissions from deep down at times.

What seems to be more certain is that the Moon has water cycles like Earth even though it does not have a proper atmosphere.
it has water vapor, that "Condenses" into minerals in the temporary cold spots, and we think also longer-lived frost in the polar craters.

Can we ever say that the Moon has a Relative Humidity?  I think it does.

Elon Musk has speculated that Quantum Computing might work very well on the Moon, in the polar craters.  Also Data Centers with solar power on the Moon.  If there is $$$, then it may be affordable to import substances the Moon is low on, but it may be that it has enough water.

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If Stoke Space is successful with it's upper stage, I say again that SpaceX should work with them to make a second form of "Starship" a Hydro-Lox one.

https://www.stokespace.com/nova/
Image Quote:

I would be interested in a version with a broader base, that could be used on the Moon.  Without the Heat Shield.

It is Hydro-Lox and it begins to seem that the Moon has much more water than was supposed.

What if you made a Hydro-Lox tanker out of it, to transport water up to an orbital Starship?

If the Starship has brought some Carbon with it, then you can completely refill the Starship in Lunar Orbit.

Pause...........

I think that with a broader base relative to height, it might be good as landings on the Moon without topple.

I would expect that Starships would also land on the Moon at times.

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An interesting feature is that if you made the base broad enough the Hydro-Lox engines could be firing even from ground zero while the Superheavy was firing it's engines.  That might mean less gravity losses on the way up.  Hopefully this would not damage the Superheavy.

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I think this can fit into the previous post: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Project Athena Explained: Cancelling SLS and Repurposing Gateway as a Nuclear-Powered Space Tug
YouTube
Space Startup News
1.4K views

A nuclear-electric tug or nuclear at all would be interesting.  A Starship with a Nuclear Tug could do some interesting things.

I think it would be nice to have some Hydro-Lox engines.  But Blue Origin, ULA, and Stoke Space can provide newer versions of that.

I think the Stoke Space upper stage could be rather good for the Moon, to work with Starships both on the surface and in Orbit.

A Stoke Space upper stage supersized, might ride up on Superheavy, and be brought to the Moon.

It could have a very broad footprint, and the plume being more distributed may be more compatible with landing on regolith with lots of small materials.  And it is Hydro-Lox, and might serve as a tanker to bring Oxygen up to a Lunar depot(s) for Starship.

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An aspect of the schemes I have recently posted about is that while some have considered Mass Drivers that send packages to a recipient, and some have considered Mass Drivers that eject mass for propulsion, these schemes can do both.

But it can also involve tethers.  I like multiple tethers so that repairs might be made if one is damaged.  Some tethers can be for strength, some for electrodynamic interaction with magnetic fields and some could be transporting pathways for payloads.

This cuts space elevator concepts into pieces which I think may be practical before any world-based device may become practical.

If this were done with ideal efficiency, then you could imagine it as a pipeline where a fluid flowing down would help to lift a fluid flowing up.

Pause for a drawing:

In an imaginary world, the Earth and Moon are liquified and parallel pipelines exchange materials.  Turbines help propel this process, if you push Moon materials down then the turbines push Earth materials up.  But of course the Earth has the much greater gravity well.

From the previous post, quote:

So, if you land a payload from the Moon and a payload from the Earth on the "Base" of this device, and then propel the Earth sourced one towards the Moon and the Moon sourced one towards the Earth, then you may have dome something similar to the above drawing.

I know some have talked about snatching payloads up using tethers and hooks, and that is fine for them if they can make it work, but I have this for now.  I am presuming relatively efficient Electric Rockets to go get payloads after they have been "Ejected" and then to move them to the next device up or down in the gravity well.

There is a way to add a pendulum to this system to help the process, but for now we have something which can be thought about at least.

https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism has some very nice videos, this one deals with Mass Drivers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxCllBtojds

They decide to work with a one-ton payload as a sort of guess that may be close to good.  If they can make it work then perhaps it would work on the "Omega Rings" instead of what I proposed.

Elon Musk has seemed to indicate that he visualizes making Satellites on the Moon and projecting them to orbits using a Mass Driver of some sort.

So, while I was thinking of a system that would project a spaceship it has to be realized that a one-ton payload would be a better thing to try.  If the Ton-Device had solar power and a transmitter of some kind, then after a toss, it could be retrieved by an electric rocket and put to the next toss device to be tossed again.

Material tossed from the Moon "Down" in the Earth's gravity well would lift the toss-device up in that gravity well.  But if you had loaded a payload to toss "Up" in the Earth's gravity well, you might approach an approximately "Null" altitude change.

It may be that there will be ideal orbits where it makes sense to move materials to from each world.  Possibly geosynchronous, maybe a bit lower.

Obviously if you can get a mass driver to work on the Moon to toss the 1-Ton devices, then you have a power supply by dropping loads down in the Earth's gravity well and then you may to some degree use that energy to lift materials in the Earth's gravity well to higher orbits, if Starship can get them up at least to LEO or maybe even just  a bit lower in a temporary orbit.

And of course we want Hydrogen and Carbon from the Earth, and lots of mass from the Moon.  But it appears that China has reason to believe that the Moon has much more water than was previously supposed.

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Good for China.

I can excuse them tooting their own horn.  I don't know that they found new things, but they do have additional information.  Also they seem to have discovered more of everything.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … df9dbe3dfa
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In my opinion contact with East Asia and Russia and perhaps the Nordics has a favorable result for the peoples who we claim like freedoms.

It is a count balance to the Verbal and Violent processes that center on the Middle East, and project even into Christianity to some extent.

I believe that the same was true when Europeans encountered the native peoples of the Americas.

But China and Japan will not collapse as much.  I do not hate Christian culture itself, but the elites of Christian nations turn out the lights, eat the brains.  Not that China And Japan are without fault and not in need of exterior inputs, but contact between the groups can produce value in my opinion.

We may have Japan with us more closely, but we also may find graceful balance with China and Russia and others on the Moon.

After all the surface of the Moon is about the size of North and South American I believe.  And the solar system is some much more vast.

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An alternative to a "Spin-Tars" would be a double ended tether system in orbit.  Perhaps even an electrodynamic tether.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodynamic_tether
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At this time, I think the Earth's magnetic field extends out to maybe a bit more than geosynchronous.

In this case rather than spinning a big tank of water, you might have it as a landing pad at the middle of the structure.

You would have a tether extended towards the Earth and one extended away from the Earth.

In this case the Tank of water could be in connection with solar power devices, and could host data centers, human and robot habitat, farming, and other features.  The Tank of water would be made as a radiator and radiation protection.

Poised well above space junk of LEO, we may hope to preserve tethers well enough to use them for extended periods.

A spacecraft landing on the Tank of water could proceed to the end of either tether and gain thrust in the direction of that tether.

If Electrodynamic Tethers are used the whole assembly can be raised or lowered in orbit. Depending on desires.

Something like this from post #16 might better apply: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 93#p235293
Image Quote:

So, you would just hang tethers in both directions off from the tank.

You could do this outside of the Earth's magnetic field, but then you would not do the electrodynamic parts of the scheme.
You might use an electric ion thrust, hopefully Neumann Drive or Magdrive will do.

I think that we do have a NASA problem as expressed by utube video presenters.  They are still in the 20th century.  While I think we may need to burn Hydrogen and Oxygen from the Moon at times when necessary, we should prefer not to.

Water can give endless service to space needs including propulsion, in some situations.

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The last few posts from yesterday, deal with T.A.R.S. Specifically, "Water Tank TARS".

Water is used not only for it's inertia, but for radiation shielding, data center cooling, and agriculture, at least.

This morning, I have a scheme that involves at least 3 bases associated with the Moon:
1) Polar
2) Lower Latitude minerals (Platinum Family are hoped for).
3) Lunar orbital of some kind, where TARS will be developed.

This would involve a process to capture Oxygen and Iron and other substances from the Moon, to build things and to export.
I would also involve the import to base #3 primarily of Paraffin Wax.  I choose Paraffin Wax as it can be used as a fuel but also would be important in evolving resources from Lunar Materials.  It is also a relatively inert substance and also can provide radiation shielding.

At all 3 bases it may be possible to process an Iron concentrate using Paraffin Wax, or Hydrogen.

While it could be done in Base 1, it would be done with Lunar Hydrogen if possible.  From https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism , I get information that the Hydrogen can be used repeatedly and even should accumulate as more Hydrogen, presuming some Hydrogens in the regolith to process.

If we want some types of Iron or Steel, we might import some Carbon to Base #1 or find it on the Moon, perhaps dry ice at the poles.
This process would also produce Oxygen for breathing and for refilling spacecraft at base #1.  Base #1 may not target magnetic Iron, but more the larger quantity of non-magnetic Iron.

But Base #2 would target magnetic Iron, and use magnetics to pluck it out of the Lunar Regolith Dust.  It is estimated that about .5% of the materials will be magnetic Iron.  However, even if concentrated, it will have other materials bonded to it.  This is actually a good thing.  Some of it would be Magnetite which has some Oxygen in it.  Others may be simply substances that are stuck to small fragments of magnetic Iron.  Base #2 would export this concentrate to the orbital Base #3.  We are also hoping for some kind of a processing of Platinum Family Metals from Base #2 which can be exported after some processing to Base #3.

I am going to set processing for Platinum Family Metals aside for now.  I am not sure if you would be able to use microbes to extract it from it's ores or some other method.

But now for the Iron Concentrate, we will react it with Paraffin imported from Earth and do Pyrolysis in orbit to produce a reduction extracting much of the Oxygen that is bonded to both magnetic Iron and some small amount of non-magnetic Iron that may have come along with the magnetic Iron.  This will produce a reduced concentrate and Water and CO2.  Some Carbon may infiltrate the reduced concentrate.  The water and CO2 can be processed to produce various things, perhaps Methane to refill a Starship.

We will hope to accumulate liquid water in large amounts over time to build a "Water Tank Tars".

Our reduced Iron concentrate then can be processed to produce Iron, and Carbon Steel.  If we import alloy agents, we can make other types of steel.

The Slag can be processed to make things.

One thing I would like produced would be heat shields, using Steel and fibers of Slag.  Putting an ablative layer of slag product over a metal heat shield.

From post #17 of this topic:

The cylinder is imagined to be a Starship "Locomotive", which is its tanks, engines, and whatever else it needs.  It has multiple tanks so that
it can carry various balances of fluid substances.

It then has a "One Time" heat shield attached to it that was made in orbit from Lunar Materials and some of the Carbon from the Paraffin that was imported.

The desire is to send this back to Earth to do one or more skims of the Earth's atmosphere to achieve a Lower Earth Orbit.

At this "Lower Earth Orbit" what remains of the heat shield is to be reprocessed for the production of alternate resources in orbit of the Earth/Moon locations.  The device may also bring "Platinum Family Metals" back as well.  In some of its tanks it might have extra Oxygen.

The "Locomotive" with heat shield detached will have protected Paraffin blocks added to it's outside.  It may have a lot of extra Methane added to it.  Perhaps to get to Lunar Orbit, it would have 3 tanks of Methane and one tank of Oxygen.

The back and forth of this can be assisted by both electric Rocket and Tars.  If fact TARS that is "Spun Up" by electric rocket propulsions.

Early versions of Tars could include tethers to fling the ship in the direction of intentions.

Some TARS might be powered by an Argon/Xenon mix.  But I am hoping that Lunar Tars can be "Spun-Up" using Neumann Drive or Magdrive.

In making a "Water-Tank-Tars", keep in mind that a great deal of the Mass may come from the Moon.

https://brainly.com/question/51013885
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At first the metal part of a water TARS could be made from water filled Starship bodies lashed together.  Later we would hope to make suitable metals in orbit of the Moon to construct much larger TARS.

Later we may also hope to get Hydrogen from sources beyond the Earth and Moon.

So, then after the first Lunar TARS is created, we might seek to make more of them at sequentially lower Earth orbits, so that the Locomotives can both be refilled and repeatedly flung up or down in Earth Orbits.

I am hoping that these filling stations will be refilled, by Neuman Drive or MagDrive robots, perhaps using Iron as a propellant.

So, the more TARS you make then less chemical propulsion you need to move the Locomotive around.

And as I have said the heat shields being in a large part of Iron/Steel, may be feedstock at LEO for the movement or resources to these filling stations by a efficient means.

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Bob Dylan Composed: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC
Lyrics: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Bob%20Dyl … 28FE931B19

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OK, add this to the just prior post: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1PNKJL  Quote:

Well then can we make them into spin propelled TARS, using Electric Ion Propulsions?

Do it!

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These are the tricks we need for Mars and Venus and other worlds.

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As far as I am concerned the new awakening of space exhibited by the recent claimed sayings of Elon Musk on behalf of Tesla and SpaceX, are a sort of Para-terraform of the Earth/Moon subsystem.  We can attach a few Near-Earth Objects as well, such as Bennu and Ryugu.  Of course I expect that others including Japan will participate.

I think I want to bring in some materials from another topic: "Index» Interplanetary transportation» Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other."
Post #195 & #196 of that topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 52#p235252

And from post #196 for this one:

This then moves to include electric rockets.  The stubborn will not want to accept Neumann Drive or MagDrive yet, so let's entertain more conventional Ion Drives until those can be better proven.

From post #4 of this topic, I have entertained a system of concentric orbital refilling stations: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 78#p235178
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The diagram suggests Solar Orbits but now let's consider 3 concentric ring orbits of the Earth between the Earth and Moon.

I believe that best case for electric rockets is thought to be 10x (Approximately) that of the best chemical rockets.
To be more realistic, being familiar with how reality actually works, lets expect 5x what the best chemical rockets can produce.  It is an arbitrary number, but I do understand that in real life we do not typically get a "Best Case".

A problem with electric rockets is the inertia of their power plants.  But we are going to hope that we can beam power form relatively stationary power stations to these Electric Ion propellant transfer depots.  The mobile propellant depots will have special tuned solar cells that can receive at about 60% efficiency a tuned beam from a relatively stationary solar power plant in an Earth/Moon orbit.

>>>>>

I also suggest adding a sort of T.A.R.S. to this scheme.

https://www.space.com/technology/spacec … -heres-how
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If you have two ships, one being from a Higher Earth Orbit and one being from a Lower Earth Orbit, they could both land in the center of a spinning TARS, and be ejected down slides sequentially.

First the one from a higher orbit might be ejected in the direction of a lower orbit, and then as the spinning station would have it's orbit modified, we would want to correct it back again somewhat but releasing the one from a lower orbit to a higher orbit.

The slide thing was given a patent a long time ago.  I do not have the reference at this time.

While it might complicate things, a massive object in orbit such as a power station, data center, or habitat might double as a TARS.

Caliban did introduce us to TARS.

I would prefer an Electric Ion propelled TARS.

So, a mass in space could be spun using Electric Ion and even its power plant is part of the mass that stores energy.

So, the big hope is that this network of "Filling Stations" with TARS, would facilitate the movement of Moon and Earth materials between LEO and the Moon.  And if someone can make a Lunar Mass Driver or Rotavator system that can get materials into Lunar orbit, then all the better.

A TARS could be many things.  A Filling Station?  A big tank of water?  A power station?  Maybe a mix of things.

So, then I do suggest that it be investigated if other electric propulsion methods will work other than say Argon/Xenon.

Neumann Drive, MagDrive.  And then is there a way to simply fling Oxygen at a high speed as a propellant, probably using electric power.

I do not like using Hydrocarbons as propellants more than is necessary.

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