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#1 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » Yesterday 13:12:43

I will try not to present falsehoods.  I know less about it than I want to.

But if there is a bias that sends small asteroids into the inner solar system, and if some of them have ice and perhaps Hydrated minerals and Carbon, then they could be regarded as a resource to build Bubble Worlds with.

I am curious about the electric fields around asteroids.  If they are like Phobos then an electron cloud may exist behind them, as it is hard for the ions(+) to jump behind the asteroid.  Perhaps here is some kind of electrical current flow associated with this and perhaps water vapor escaping from the asteroid may interact with it in some way, to propel the asteroid inward.

But I don't know that.

Done.

#2 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » Yesterday 10:32:21

I have additionally been attracted to "Active Asteroids": https://www.bing.com/search?q=Active+As … 4B&pc=U531
Quote:

Global web icon
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_asteroid
Active asteroid - Wikipedia
Active asteroids are small Solar System bodies that have asteroid-like orbits but show comet-like visual characteristics. That is, they show a coma, tail, or other visual evidence of mass-loss (like a comet), but their orbits remain within Jupiter's orbit (like an asteroid). These bodies were originally designated main-belt … See more

I certainly do not understand how these may become "Dark Comets".  Some notion of resonant orbits exists, and some notion also suggests outgassing.

I wonder with concern of being wrong, if an invisible coma of outgassing can push harder on one side of such an abject as the outgassed materials may expand even more from sunlight.  The solar wind may push a tail to a shape, and perhaps that pushes a bit against the asteroid before the gasses are entirely divorced from the outgassing object.

If there is a process like that then for colder portions of the solar system, outgassing of other volatiles than water vapor might do a similar ting to bring small objects inward?

The list in the attached article, includes asteroids that may shed materials other than water vapor, and in some cases, this may be dust.  But they are often Carbonaceous in nature it appears.

So, how many icy asteroids exist is not understood.  But it seems implied that the closer in an asteroid is the deeper you would need to dig to get to ice.

But some of these asteroids may have Hydrogen bonded to minerals, I suspect.

Still, the merits of seeking to build Bubble Worlds from these materials seem favorable to me at this time.

Done

#3 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » Yesterday 08:23:06

I just encountered the idea of "Dark Comets".  I think it would fit here, we will see if it is a true thing: https://www.space.com/earth-water-dark-comets-impacts

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … ngNewsSerp

A more scientific article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … via%3Dihub

What I get from this is that even the inner asteroid belt may have some reservoirs of ice in rubble pile asteroids.  I presume that this is fossil water from solar system formation.

I also read that .5% to 60% of Near-Earth Asteroids may have water ice in them.  I would hope that an average number of 29% would turn out to be true.  If .5%, then it is not very significant.

If this turns out to be true to any fair amount, then it might facilitate "Bubble World" methods to deal with NEO materials.  And a Bubble World could have enough navigation that it could move from object to object, encountering icy and dry objects and consuming them.

Done

#4 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-11 20:24:33

There are some other things to consider, about the ability of refilling in LEO.
Hydrogen is one, with Nuclear Rockets.
Argon could be another, with Nuclear Electric Rockets.

I think that the two together could be effective in placing hardware in orbit of Mars.  Such hardware could include means to build from raw materials of Phobos/Deimos/Mars.

I do understand the idea of a sort of Mars Direct with Starship, and I support it, but if the Earth is to have a series of platforms in orbit of Earth, a nuclear thermal boost and then a nuclear electric finish could be a good way to get hardware to Mars orbit that would allow for the construction of platforms around Mars.

Mars orbital platforms could likely send power down to Mars, to the nighttime and to the winters.  This could be very important to keep things running around the clock.  In that case to use fully the factory processes all the time as much as possible.

Done.

#5 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Humanoid and other robots. » 2024-07-11 20:08:56

When considering humanoid robots, it is already said by people like Elon Musk that robots will be able to do most things eventually, and that there may need to be a guaranteed income.

Also, elsewhere I have talked about the "Wall-Bump" people.  They are people who cannot factor in multiple trends to do a process control.  Instead, they will continue on a path until the hit a wall and then they will be forced to try something new, a new direction.

So, there are notions of Social Security running out of money.  Well within 10 years I expect a whole lot of robot labor to be in existence.

The point being that if you are going to need a guaranteed income then cutting SSI and raising the retirement age, is probably the wrong move.  Instead, once the robot economy is functional (And if it is), then you should lower the retirement age.

That is my opinion.

Done

#6 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-11 11:51:19

And I think that space station technology in Earth orbit will likely adapt to Mars orbit: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=WRVORC
Quote:

This company is winning the race to create the first factory in space | Hard Reset
YouTube
Freethink
1.3K views
4 hours ago

It may be that materials from our Moon will be used to build things in orbit some time down the line, but I observe that Phobos and Deimos are already in orbit of Mars, not using futuristic technology.

Space Stations may eventually give way to huge Bubble Worlds.  And some of those could orbit Mars and might share energy to Mars as part of their functions.

Done

#7 Re: Life support systems » Iron and Steel on Mars » 2024-07-11 11:08:58

Maybe this could have some merit in iron making: https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topst … 74a3&ei=27
Quote:

The Cool Down
103.7K Followers
Energy startup discovers new benefit while developing innovative iron-air battery — and it could revolutionize an entire industry
Story by Rick Kazmer • 1w • 3 min read

And of course the battery tech could be important as well.

Getting Oxygen from rocks at the same time could have value on Mars and other worlds as well.

Done

#8 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-11 10:30:10

This is a valuable query: "Mars was as cold as iceland": General Result: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Mars+was+ … 6C&pc=U531

The climate, perhaps 1/2 billion years in from the formation of Mars is described as perhaps Iceland, or Labrador, and variable, even being like Antarctica.  So, if we could return the planet to its former nature, with more geothermal heat, more Nitrogen, and maybe more water, it might become like subarctic, on the Equator, dependent also perhaps as a variable, on the axis tilt.

The ability to return Mars to this young nature is likely to be far too expensive relative to the payoff.  In reality it is likely to be consider impossible actually.

Dealing with Mars would involve adaptations to what we have to settle for, and manipulations.  Manipulations will involve surface manipulations and manipulations in and from orbits, for the most part.

Surface activities can involve avoidance of heat loss to space.  This included Greenhouse Gasses, Domes and other structures, and "Tucking Heat".  Greenhouse gasses could "Tuck Heat" if they could melt water.  The water would tend to flow under ice and so tuck heat into the bodies of water created.

Manipulations "manipulations in and from orbits" could increase the energy budget for Mars, so then it is sensible to consider doing " Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds)" methods for that reason.  Also, Phobos and Deimos could supply the bulk of materials for that, and what could not be had from Phobos and Deimos, might be possible to get from Mars itself.

So, developing the Mars surface and the orbits of Mars, at the same time make sense to me.  It is not some stupid binary contest.

Done

#9 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-11 09:11:51

Mar/Phobos/Deimos might be a good nursery to develop some sort of " Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds)."

But a precursor to that would likely involve lifter rockets like Starship and also space station, around the Earth.

A contender for an important factor, artificial gravity is "Vast Space":  Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds).

If the world remains divided as it is now, we can expect a competitive mirrored similar action from a group likely including Russian and/or China.  Probably they will eventually have the equivalent of Starship or a more advanced system if such ever shows up.

That last mention will excite the binary western peoples.  Dealing with people who can only function like a primitive control system that is like a toy car that bumps into walls to discover what to do next, if sort of baked in, most of the time.  My desire is to anticipate a better awareness of local reality so as have a higher level of process control.  So, in general I expect that the wall bump people will be around like it or not.  And it is important that they do not waste our time.  Also, it is possible to trigger an immune response, if we do not behave wisely.

They may react in a troublesome way, if they develop a false reality.  False realities are profitable sometimes for subgroups of the wall bump peoples.

So, it is not that I don't like our "Team(s)", it is more that I anticipate that technology from the "Others" may serve our interests as well as theirs over time.

The football team with cheerleaders' way of wall-Bump process control of society, is often a stupid waste of time.

As example, things that came from the Soviet Union were, Airlock methods, Grid fins, and Hot Staging.  I think the USA also did some of that, perhaps Hot Staging.

So, I count that as useful to our interests in the long term.

Done

#10 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-10 19:42:44

I have mentioned Vesta, Ceres, our Moon, and Callisto and Ganymede.  But really Mars/Phobos/Deimos seem to me to be the place to initiate such technology. 

Done

#11 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Neuralink » 2024-07-10 16:01:48

Interesting stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXxaY5aQAzQ&t=864s
Quote:

Elon Musk JUST Delivered Bombshell Neuralink Presentation Leaving Audience Speechless

Matt Pocius on Tesla Stock & Money
46K subscribers

I have some anxiety, about some bad potentials, but I also think I see good things.

An interesting question that comes to me at this moment is like a thumb drive, could you clone stored data from one brain and then eventually be able to add it to another?

I realize that it may take a long time of discovery to learn how to do that, if it is possible.

So far, the idea I have seen is AI/Cortex/Primitive Brain.  But could they expand the cortex instead, and do memories move sideways on the storage medium in the cortex?

OK, so I only understand a little of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocortex

So, if a sideways extension of one of the Cortex sections were artificial, could you load materials into it and would that then travel "Sideways" into the organic brain? 

And I would be very happy if they can repair persons who have had brain damage.

Done

#12 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-10 11:12:53

This new version has solar extensions: rwlCv2i.png

But in general human habitats and gardens could likely be hosted inside of the bubble shells.

There had been a concern about losing volatile materials to space to be swept away by the solar wind.  This scheme seeks to actually accumulate some volatiles from the solar wind.  Also to recover leaked materials from pressurized habitats that are to be inside of the shells.

Done

#13 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-10 09:28:27

I did not intend to go in this direction but did in the last post: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

She studied extreme psychopaths. Here’s what it taught her about human nature | Abigail Marsh
YouTube
Big Think
362.6K views
2 weeks ago

I guess I am comfortable with the idea of a spectrum.  I would usually be trying to detect a problem with the Extinctionists, but I suppose the Expansionist side also should be examined.

Extinctionis Environmentalism is a thing that may need to be detected, so as to do a purer form of Environmentalism.

Environmentalism compatible with humans.

The religious factors of "Extinctionis Environmentalism".  It basically is the notion of original sin, you are judged to be bad simply because you are human, and you need to give reparations to authority therefore.  You must pay for your sins, and of course you need to pay those payments to a proclaimed authority(s).  Payments can be acceptance of poverty in the name of repentance.

But if you give your allegiance to authority, is this authority from the God of love, or from "Mans Accuser"?

Be careful who you will accept as the keystone of your life.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-accuser.html

I say this all for the idea that Bubble World technology may allow a great expansion of human resources from raw materials of the solar system.  But many "Stay at homes" will only want to process your life as food for their satisfaction.  Be careful to study their revealed intentions over time.

Bubble Worlds may become elements of a a partial Dyson Sphere over time.  The means of the flesh life to be sure, but but to be alive is to have the potential to improve, I think.

Death is not much use for that as far as I can see.  Being tined Samon or pork on someone's table is less than what I had hoped to be truthfully.  But that may assume a greater importance than I disserve.  But desires are more than that.

Done

#14 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-10 08:19:25

Just one possible version of a Bubble World: 6Kx6KkA.png

Elon Musk has some ideas that seem to have merit.

He has recently seemed to mention Extinctionism vs. Expansionism.

I do approve of good Stewardship of things that humans may have power over.

Dr. Zubrin has spoken of "The Merchants of Doom".

Coffee.

I will say, that I feel we should question sources of opinion that try to insinuate that there is a moral issue against expansionism.   Who appointed them to own our choices?  The answer is nobody who may matter is likely to have.

This is just a little like sexual shaming.  Such may be strongly distributed by those who have a selfish desire to always be the receivers of what is desired.  When possible, such people will try to interfere with the procreation of others, and frame it as public morality.  While morality structure is needed, be careful about the motivations of those who judge.

In a like manner, those who judge against expansionism, may be doing so from selfish motives such as harnessing human energy to give them masters favors.  In other words they don't want "Little House on the Prairie", they want plantations.  They want you to bring them "Hot Toddies", and they want to own you and whatever your efforts are as their own.

So, when possible, shed them and their judgements.

Done

The diagram suggests what could be done with waste materials such as water and regolith, while mining alien worlds.

Done

#15 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-09 10:08:06

We know more about some worlds, more than about other worlds.

Ceres and Vesta are some of the "More" worlds.

Ceres looks like it may have come from the outer solar system, and that for a time, it may have had oceans on it.  That water may have evaporated away, but still it appears to have lots of water left.

Vesta was thought to be very dry, and it may be.  But there may be frozen cryovolcanic history there, I think.  That is, if it had water, and the volcanism died down water volcanism may have continued for a bit of time so the remnants of that may exist as seams in the rocks that run deep.  No proof of that, but it may be possible.  Also, comets may have deposited ice as well.  As I have previously mentioned, it appears to have carbonaceous dust on it which may contain Hydrogen, Nitrogen, and Carbon.  Ice deep down could contain some Ammonia, which of course could yield Nitrogen.

16 Psyche is interesting, for the presumed heavy metals, but Vesta may have a broader distribution of materials useful to build in space.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Psyche

For the moment, I am presuming that for Vesta if native Nitrogen is not present it could be imported, perhaps from Ceres.  I am hoping that eventually Vesta could be surrounded by a very large shell that may encompass the entire Hill Sphere of Vesta more or less.  But I don't know yet what is sensible and possible for that.

So, it may be possible to make a small Bubble World to be in geosynchronous orbit of Vesta as a start.  Then to go to a Toroidal shell around the geosynchronous area of Vests orbits.  Then perhaps from there to build a Hill shell if possible.

Bubble Worlds for Vesta could also be in the L1 or L2 areas as well.  L1 seems to be the more sensible place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point
Image Quote: 450px-Lagrange_points_simple.svg.png

So, a big question may be, is it easier to build Bubble Worlds from the materials of our Moon, or some asteroid, like Vesta.

Done

#16 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-09 06:44:25

I have received a request elsewhere: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 13#p225013
Quote:

tahanson43206
Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,034
Email
For Void re bubble worlds ....

If a traveler were to visit one of these, what would they see/experience?

1) What would the world look like from the outside?
2) How would access to the interior take place?
3) What would the interior look like?
4) Should the visitor remain inside the space craft during the visit?

(th)

The interest is appreciated.

It is fun for me to work at the edge of existing "
no·men·cla·ture":https://www.bing.com/search?q=Nomenclat … f3&pc=DCTS

A couple of times at least, I have visualized something and then named it and then discovered that someone(s) had already given it a name.  I said "Orphan Shell" but then discovered the phrase "Bubble World" from other people already exists.  Having a relatively standardized language can be important but can also be a prison for the potential of invention.  Words can disguise a wordy person as authority, when in reality, sometimes the words only are a mimic of understanding.  The mimics can at times be awarded authority which then makes them an impediment to the emergence of the new developments.  They are in effect vampires, mimics are the "Living Dead Minds".

The phrase "Bubble World" as I understand it is a shell world with no major core mass, such as an asteroid.  But there could be intermediate shell worlds, which are between that and a shell world around an existing or moved mass.

Moved Mass for a shell world could be "Overburden" or "Slag" materials, that may be come into existence during mining and industrial processes.

But let's start with a one layered bubble without any significant built or existing core.  Vesta or our Moon could perhaps be source materials to build one.  If we like we can choose a "Sphere" as the dominant form of shape.  We could think of this as a skin around very little substance.

Let's think of one perhaps 50km in diameter, just for a start.  Size is an option, and there could be multiple options that become attributes of a Bubble Shell.  And option I might propose to give in addition to that would be simulated tidal locking to the sun, in the case of a sun orbit at least. You could also do an artificial tidal lock to the sun while in orbit of another object such as a planet or world.

So, we have a spherical epidermis, perhaps 50 km in diameter.  It will be punctured repeatedly by objects of sufficient size.  So, we will want mechanical "Repair Animals" to do patching.  Think Bees, Wasps, Beavers, humanoid.

On the sunward side of the shell, we can have windows and power devices such as solar panels, heat engines, and radiators.

Internal to the shell, we may have a very thin atmosphere.  Molecular flow level, like an Exosphere for a planet.  A gas molecule does not tend to bounce off of another gas molecule, but off of a solid surface such as the interior of the shell and will not leave though a hole unless its trajectory intercepts that hole.  Gasses leaked or pumped into the shell, may be cooled on the "Dark" side of the shell.  For some molecules condensation may be possible.

The shell may also be impacted by the solar wind if it is exposed to the solar wind.  This may pile up on the windward side, be reflected and then flow around the object.  But I would want to pump it into the insides of the shell.

My hope is to use a "Helium" electric rocket to serve as the motor for a vacuum pump which could push the solar wind
impacting and pooled up plasma into the interior of the shell though "Stomata".  Oxides in the interior of the shell may be used to react with the Plasma.  Particularly with the Hydrogen.  I suggest trying manufactured Ozone.  The results them may be condensed as ice on the cold surfaces provided inside of the shell.  The remainder would be mostly Helium.  The Helium could be pumped to a compression using a Helium electric rocket motor pump method.

I need some rest, so I will say that things could be nested inside of the shell, including habitats, and tanks of water as option.  The shell itself could have "Trains" on it to give transportation from point to point.

So, you get the idea, a shell could be just a Bubble World, but then you could put the waste materials from mining a world inside of it to make habitats and tanks of water and so on.

Rest time.

Done

#17 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-08 21:05:38

Bubble Worlds, may have some compatibility to Callibans concept of an Ice world / Water world.

There seem to be maybe 4 typical types of worlds for materials for these. 

Phoebe is thought to be undifferentiated, a mix of 50/50 ice/rock.

Many small outer moons may be differentiated and of rock with ice and perhaps water over that.

Some major asteroids are called Stony or Metal and have only a small amount of water.

Some Major Asteroids are partly differentiated and having ice/water/rock composition.  Callisto and Ganymede may be of this type.

Currently I am very interested in asteroids of a type similar to Vesta.

A list of Exceptional Asteroids again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
That includes a list with specs. for those asteroids.

I think Bubble Worlds could be built from a Stony or Metal asteroid and then moved to an icy major asteroid, to be filled with water in part.  I would expect multiple shells for that.

Done

#18 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Genetics » 2024-07-07 08:11:07

I found this today: https://phys.org/news/2024-07-year-tomb … stage.html
Quote:

JULY 3, 2024

Editors' notes
A 4,500-year-old collective tomb in France reveals final stage in formation of the 'European genome'
by Eva-Maria Geigl, Oğuzhan Parasayan and Thierry Grange, The Conversation

I suppose I am to make some comments and hope to not propagate stupidity from me.

The article is at least interesting.

I anticipate further existence of the descendants of these people(s), so understanding may be useful as to know what a correct response to their continuing existence is.

I have also recently read an article about feminine selfishness.  This is sort of instinctual, and is about the truth that for a female it is usually obvious who her genetic descendants are.  So, what is considered "Love" is actually lovely, but it is to some large degree selfishness towards familiar heritage.  People who are past procreation, will anyway perhaps choose to be selfish towards their concept of familial heritage.  So, then the Grandmother thing, and yes to some degree the Grandfather thing.

The male historically has less certainty of what his genetic heritage is.  Particularly in a situation lacking racial distinctions.  I think that the male(s) have a tendency to form group nesting for this reason.  It is more likely that their genetics and culture will persist in a mutual nest.
This is likely to be more true if a binary marriage situation is not the normal.

It could even be considered partially true; I think that such nests are the equivalent of a male womb.  Which asks the question "If a woman is too inconvenient, can they be aborted out of that nest?".  The answer is probably yes, I think.

The above is not the only asymmetrical to symmetrical pattern in my opinion.

For Bonobos' and Chimpanzees, I believe the typical pattern for females emerging to breeding age, is that the female is ejected or ejects herself from the masculine nest with its adult females.  This is not unlike the make genetic signal though sperm.  The nest pollinates other nests with their females emerging from puberty.  So, then a genetic transfer.  Someone in my working life told me of guys who would put their daughters into paid apartments hoping that they would find a man, so that they could get her out of the house.  True/False?  I don't know.

But then there is violence.  So, we can guess what the violence from a nest or an individual male may do to promote a genetic greed.

But what use is violence to a female?  In general, on an individual basis females may induce males to compete.  The notion is to get a "Fit" man, and maybe even a man that can take things away from other people, and then she can get some of that.

I have read that females may tend to favor large biceps.  Also, they may have an interest in butts.  I had had a terrible time understanding that, as we know what emanates from a butt.  But both biceps and butts may signal a form of fitness.  So, I guess that could make sense.

Now, what about mass violence.  Let's consider WWI and WWII.  Violence can be a fitness test.  Even imposed sexual reproduction.  I don't' particularly like that notion but I think it can be true.  America did not get as much of a butchering of boys and men as did for instance the UK and New Zealand.  The survivors then inherit the wealth, if the nation wins.  Guess which gender is the most dominant in survival in that case.

Such wars have existed before Darwinism, but a perversion of Darwinism seems to promote a notion of a lazy path to superior people.  Cruelty is supposed by some of our "genius" people to be that path.  But I think that it is the path to the stone age.

I think that some Academics need repeated ass kicking for some of the things they have done.

There are various things, but one comes to mind that is a irritant to me.  It is a language issue.  The saying that when a cell divides the results are daughter cells.  As they are asexual in general, the output is better said to be child cells, or descendant cells.  This covers the formation of a male human better as well as why would you say that all of his cells are daughter cells?  You could cay "son" cells, but I think Child or descendant cells may do.

I think that part of the fall of the British Empire was the craving to use stupid cruelty to regulate society and also the craving for what war violence can do for those who survive.  A descent back into the stone age.

You may do better if you foster the more peaceful forms of collective masculine nesting process.

Done

But then I am stupid am I not?  The jury has yet to decide.

smile

Done

#19 Re: Terraformation » Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff. » 2024-07-06 05:54:47

If it proved sensible to burrow into the ice caps of Mars for various helpful effects, then at the boundary of the thicker ice caps, it may be possible to access the base rock of the planet under the ice.  So then warmer habitats could be cut into the rock.

At this "Junction Ring" for each ice cap, also "Air-Loops" might be implemented.  These could be "Greenhouse Plenums": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plenum_space

Greenhouses are usually considered to be like a building and not a pipeline.  But these "Greenhouse Plenums" might be like a transparent pipeline.  The primary loops would likely be low pressure relative to the ambient pressure of Mars at those locations.  They would probably be in the form of a continuing arch.  Martian Atmosphere could be humidified and pushed into one end of a loop.  Then out of the outer end we should hope to get some Oxygen generated by extreme photo organisms.  The average surface pressure of Mars is currently about 5.5 mbar.  In time that might be doubled.  A Greenhouse Loop might have an internal pressure a bit more than that.

Methods to handle the deterioration of Plastic Films will be desired.  The Martian environment is harsh.
Quotes from post #1:

Dealing with UV light on Mars: (Post #1563)
This reference which discusses a 3 layer plastic inflatable dome method, includes materials from SeaDragon:

Another UV reference:

Here we also have a method to convert UV light into visible light perhaps: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 45#p224845

So this Greenhouse Loop method may allow distribution of water vapor on Mars.  The interior would be designed to support very extreme forms of Photo Life.  Some of these organisms might be "Bio formed".

One such organism to seek to optimize would be this one: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … dd02&ei=11

Cyanobacteria may make the list and be more quickly altered to optimize adaptation to a Greenhouse Loop environment.

Some Antarctic Lichens may be suitable as well.

Some of these organisms can get moisture directly out of the air, without an apparent liquid phase.
https://www.antarctica.gov.au/about-ant … 0by%20snow.  Quote:

Lichens have adaptations that enable them to survive in Antarctica. They are able to exhibit net photosynthesis while frozen at temperatures as low as −20 °C. They can absorb water from a saturated atmosphere when covered by snow.
Lichens – Australian Antarctic Program
www.antarctica.gov.au/about-antarctica/plants/lichens/
www.antarctica.gov.au/about-antarctica/plants/lichens/

The interior of a Greenhouse Loop could be improved by the injection of Moisture, and the supply of needed nutrients.
However most extreme organisms are slow growing.  So, Bioforming might be used to try to both further adapt the life forms and to also promote a higher growth rate. 

Bioforming: https://terraforming.fandom.com/wiki/Bioforming

A "Greenhouse Loop" might be expected to give a return of Oxygen and Biomass, for the investment of water vapor and nutrients and the protective structure.

The "Greenhouse Loops" might also convey water to locations where higher-pressure greenhouses to grow other plants could be implemented.

Oxygen and Organic materials collected to the ice cap tunnel system could be put into long term storage, so as to provide for a better long-term source of life support for humans and their machines on Mars.

Done

#20 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-06 05:11:12

I suppose it might be time to "Come Up For Air".

So , a Shell-World Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellworld

A sort of sanity checks perhaps.

I guess this quoted material sort of approximates what I am supposing could be possible 

An inflated canopy holding high pressure air around an otherwise airless world to create a breathable atmosphere. The pressure of the contained air supports the weight of the shell. This type of structure could also be built on top of an existing smaller planet or asteroid, enabling it to support human-friendly atmosphere.[3][4][5]
Completely hollow shell worlds can also be created on a planetary or larger scale by contained gas alone, also called bubbleworlds, as long as the outward pressure from the contained gas balances the gravitational contraction of the entire structure, resulting in no net force on the shell. The scale is limited only by the mass of gas enclosed; the shell can be made of any mundane material. The shell can have an additional atmosphere on the outside.[1][6]

So they call "Orphan" Shells as "Bubble Worlds".  I will try to shift to that terminology.

They do talk about nested shells:

A shellworld is any of several types of hypothetical megastructures:

A planet or a planetoid turned into series of concentric matryoshka doll-like layers supported by massive pillars.[1] A shellworld of this type features prominently in Iain M. Banks' novel Matter.

I visualize a Exoshell as on average being rather light weight, so that a tenuous internal atmosphere could help support it against any internal center of gravitation.  For that certain sizes of asteroid might be better than others.  I think that Vesta may not be too bit, but maybe it will be.

One alternative to a shell surrounding an Asteroid might be a L1 & L2 Bubbles World Scheme.  In this case you might involve space elevators.  As L1 & L2 are a bit unstable, active propulsive means of keeping the Bubble Worlds where they belonged in L1 & L2 would be needed.  L1, I think would have the better solar power.

But you could have Geosynchronous Bubble Worlds in orbit of an asteroid like Vesta.  This could allow for directly connected space elevators.  A series of Bubble Worlds in Geosynchronous orbit could instead become a torus that would encompass the asteroid.  So then, a Toroidal Bubble World.

So, I anticipate that at least some of the notions in this topic could have merit.

Done

For a huge scale, a Toroidal Bubble World that surrounded Planet Mercury or Venus could be interesting.  But it might not be possible to build one so large as to completely occult a planet.

Geostationary Orbit being: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostatio … 20rotation.
Quote:

For broader coverage of this topic, see Geosynchronous orbit.

Two geostationary satellites in the same orbit

A 5° × 6° view of a part of the geostationary belt, showing several geostationary satellites. Those with inclination 0° form a diagonal belt across the image; a few objects with small inclinations to the Equator are visible above this line. The satellites are pinpoint, while stars have created star trails due to Earth's rotation.
A geostationary orbit, also referred to as a geosynchronous equatorial orbit[a] (GEO), is a circular geosynchronous orbit 35,786 km (22,236 mi) in altitude above Earth's equator, 42,164 km (26,199 mi) in radius from Earth's center, and following the direction of Earth's rotation.

So, honestly really far beyond what humans might do any time soon.

Even Vesta might be an incredibly large task to do.  But the payoff might be huge as well.

Done

#21 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-05 16:38:30

So, then the hope would be to have an Exoshell, which will be dominantly filled with Helium and Hydrogen with traces of other gasses.  And you might also add some CO2 as it is much heavier.

A Exosphere has molecules that bounce off of the surface of a world or lower more dense layers of atmosphere.

But, it you have a shell that it may also bounce off of, then there is hope that the shell could tend to use the bouncing molecules to keep the shell centered over the more inner shell or a world like Vesta.  Even with a small gravity however, the air should thicken in the "Down" directions, this effect would be more pronounced. Particularly a CO2 layer under a Helium/Hydrogen layer may function well for that.

But magnetic effects may be used as well to position the Exoshell.  If necessary it may be possible to mechanically link the poles of a world like Vesta to the spin poles of a shell.

Actually if you have a continuous feed of Hydrogen, Helium, and trace molecules being captured from the solar wind, then you might create higher molecule densities than typical for an Exosphere.

The Exoshell may have means to convey light into the next shell.  And the other shells may be similar.  Each nested shell may allow for a higher air pressure.

So, I think that Vesta could become attractive, but you might need to import Nitrogen.  That may not be beyond reach, but time will talk about that.

If the Exoshell can be kept from collapsing in the gravitational situation, then it might be as big as the Earth, and so intercept a great deal of sunshine.

Done

#22 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-05 15:10:54

So, then I want to consider Vesta.  Ceres, may be prone to flooding with water, and the shells may be able to make water from the solar wind and maybe eve3n capture a bit of Nitrogen, so I want to consider Vesta.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Vesta

Vesta seems to have Carbonaceous materials scattered on much of its surface.
https://www.space.com/18299-asteroid-ve … pacts.html
Quote:

The bright surface of Vesta – an asteroid so huge that some researchers consider it a dwarf planet or protoplanet – is peppered with carbon materials that are likely from "dark" asteroids that gently hit the surface, according to a new study.

Here is an article about asteroidal water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroidal_water
https://www.nasa.gov/solar-system/gulli … zed-flows/
Quote:

4 MIN READ

Gullies on Vesta Suggest Past Water-Mobilized Flows

So, I am guessing that there might still be pockets of ice and seams of ice buried very deep.  And the regolith may have generated some water also from the solar wind.

The idea of digging all the way down to the core of Vesta, may seem out of reach, but consider if you started making hollows in the Crust and Mantle of Vesta, over time you would reduce the amount of overburden on the core and so also change the gravity field.

Suppose you made shells around Vesta.  Just for fun, imagine one the size of the Earth.  Such a shell could intercept a whole lot of sunlight, even at the distance from the sun at Vesta.

Eventually it might be possible to hollow out the core of Vesta and make a place for humans there as well.

The asteroid/Dwarf Planet being volcanic, various minerals may be present, including copper, in concentrated form.

Uranium and Thorium might also be produced.

So, maybe this is a way forward for the human race.

Here is Isaac Arthur again:

I want to go slow with this topic.  Here are materials from Isaac Arthur that may be considered some sort of cousins to this topic I am trying to develop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjwtdE7GWmA
Quote:

Megastructures: Hollow Earth

Isaac Arthur
786K subscribers

#23 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Genetics » 2024-07-05 14:20:47

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtSn0Af_Q5M
Quote:

Scientists Reveal The Amazing Genetic Origins of Siberians And NorthEast European People

Evo Inception
7.11K subscribers

This helps confirm my notions about the nature of reality.

Without going into too much of a rant, I will say, that Siberian related peoples moved to the Americas some time ago, and were isolated.  They have some suggestion of Austronesian ancestry also.

The Nordics crossed over but did not seem to have enough interest to struggle with the Pseudo-Siberians.  The church tended to discourage contact wit then then non-Christians such as the Inuit.  Pressure for new things was not as prevalent as the later time when the Iberians bumped into the Pseudo-Siberians.  The desire for spices not controlled by the Middle East, prompted the expansion of the Iberians into the world.

And then the collision between Pseudo-Siberians with Iberians eventually drew in the other Europeans, so far in greater amounts to North America.

It was due to isolation of the Pseudo-Siberians, that they were not up to date on immunity to global diseases.

The concept of Hispanic and other such designations.  Seems a distortion of reality to me.  A game to do an assault on more Anglo assimilated people.  I see nothing wrong with the Spanish or Portuguese languages.

And even Mexico, is after all as it turns out closely similar to the span of Iberian to Siberia in the so called Old world.

The terminology of Black/White, and the phrase of "People of Color" are simply verbal gerrymandering, by enemies of our interests to cause us to behave in mistaken ways, that will allow the "Divide and Conquer" people to exploit us.

That is my current theory anyway.

Done

#24 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-05 13:05:56

Here I will try to develop things more: 15uv5mp.png

Two methods of sailing may be on Photons from the sun, and also using the solar wind.

For the Sail and Tether, on the left side, you might use the Photon wind to lift the assembly to a higher orbit in the Earth's magnetic field.  And then you could use the tether to generate electricity, and also then lower the assembly in the Earth's magnetic field.

On the right hand side a cigar shaped Semi-Sphere, has a pendulum which may tilt it relative to the flow of either or both the suns photon wind and/or solar wind.  The tethers may or may not be embedded in the cigar shaped shell frame.

The magnetic field of the solar wind is different than the magnetic field of the Earth, as it spirals out, so I am not entirely sure I yet understand the proper methods though.  But an objective is to control spin to a one-year spin and to control orbit to what is possible and desired.

Power generation from the inertia of the solar wind and photon wind is a desire.

Beyond that it may be desired to capture the solar wind into the shell.  So then methods for that are needed such as stomata.  As the solar wind may tend to pile up on the windward side, if stomata might be provided then capture of molecules may be facilitated by providing stomata for it to enter the shell.

Manipulations of electrical charge may be useful, but also I consider the use of a pumping method as well.

They might be a bit like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_pump
Quote:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Six inch oil diffusion pump.

Ulvac oil diffusion pump cutaway
Diffusion pumps use a high speed jet of vapor to direct gas molecules in the pump throat down into the bottom of the pump and out the exhaust. They were the first type of high vacuum pumps operating in the regime of free molecular flow, where the movement of the gas molecules can be better understood as diffusion than by conventional fluid dynamics. Invented in 1915 by Wolfgang Gaede, he named it a diffusion pump since his design was based on the finding that gas cannot diffuse against the vapor stream, but will be carried with it to the exhaust.[1] However, the principle of operation might be more precisely described as gas-jet pump, since diffusion also plays a role in other types of high vacuum pumps. In modern textbooks, the diffusion pump is categorized as a momentum transfer pump.

I am thinking of a jet of Helium molecules to perhaps be emitted from an electric rocket engine to entrain the solar wind and escort it into the shell though stomata.

I think that the solar wind is about 92% Hydrogen (+) ions.
And the other 8% is mostly Helium.
And some other minority elements.

Internal Service Error is being a jerk, so I have to keyboard things in an unusual fashion.

The solar wind being pushed into the shell, it may be that the Hydrogen (+) ions might be made to react to dust of an Oxide of something.  And of course the gasses have to be electrically made neutral.

The resulting water vapor and also Helium and other trace gasses might then be pressurized with a Helium version of a diffusion pump method, I think.

That is quite a bit for now.

I think next, I will think about a "Hill Sphere" shell, around an asteroid, perhaps Vesta.

Done

#25 Re: Terraformation » Hill Sphere and Orphan Shells (And Bubble Worlds). » 2024-07-05 09:47:31

I want to go slow with this topic.  Here are materials from Isaac Arthur that may be considered some sort of cousins to this topic I am trying to develop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjwtdE7GWmA
Quote:

Megastructures: Hollow Earth

Isaac Arthur
786K subscribers

Of course I am closer to trying to get a set of nested shells, where I hope to stepwise become harmonious with the environment of space, hoping to gain more from it by those methods.

Here then is a "Orphan Shell" without a world within and without internal nested subshells: aph7nJe.png

I think I understand what the stresses would be, but correct me if I am wrong.  In the form of dyslexia, I often have trouble with discerning which is correct the right or left hand of a concept.

I think that such a shell could be built with enough strength to tolerate the stresses that may pull an object apart, provided it is not too close to the object it orbits.

This could then be an Exoshell that could contain other nested shells and/or an actual small world at it's core.

Using optics, I would hope to be able to create a focus in the interior which might impinge on a nested shell or small worlds in the interior.

Also, I hope to be able to absorb the solar wind with it and yet keep the internal contents of gas molecules from being depleted by leakage to space.

Solar methods of power could be included, and I hope also a method to extract electric power from the inertia of the solar wind.  Possibility includes electrostatics and also magnetically induced methods.

A tether system can either rise in a magnetic field by consuming electrical power or generate electric power by descending deeper into a magnetic field.

But a shell will also have qualities of a solar sail.  The different surfaces may allow sailing.  I am still thinking this through.  It may have offset sails of materials or magnetic fields. to influence Orbit or spin of the shell.  For the moment I think of a shell that rotates only once per year as it orbits the sun, but other spins may be investigated later on.

Done

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