New Mars Forums

Perhaps I can improve on the post #232.

The Expendable, (Not Really) Starship, may have the standard "Locomotive" parts.  The propellant tanks, and engines primarily.

The Fairings would be Aluminum if possible.

It could carry a cargo, the Aluminum being lighter than the standard Stainless Steel.

At LEO, the ship will react any remaining CH4 and O2 to create water, and store it and possibly to create CO2 and Store it. (Or dump it overboard).

A tug, possibly electric in nature would move the Starship up to LEO+ where a "Rendering" space station would exist.

The Locomotive will be repurposed as a Star-Kicker to be a booster for a Starship headed beyond LEO+  Perhaps some of the Raptors will be removed.

The Cargo will be removed from the Aluminum Fairing.

The Aluminum Fairing will be rendered into rods of pellets for Neumann Drive or Magdrive respectively.

The Star-Kicker will be used to boost a Starship to an objective likely with human crew in the Starship, needing fast delivery.

The Star-Kicker will be abandoned into an orbit, most likely of Earth.

A Metals(Aluminum) Electric Rocket will on it's way to the Moon perhaps, intercept the abandoned Star-Kicker and grab it and take it to Lunar orbit or maybe "L1".

Although it is said that Lunar Oxygen lifted by rocket to LEO would not be economic, I am hoping that it may be more likely that Lunar Oxygen lifted to Orbit by rocket will be practical.  So, the Star-Kicker will be filled with enough Lunar Oxygen to land.

Methane will have to also be provided.  Perhaps Hydrogen from the Moon and Carbon from Earth for that?

The Star-Kicker will land on the Moon and become an addition to the Infrastructure on the Moon.

I do desire that eventually a mass driver will be possible on the Moon, but before that, this system in this post might assist the build up of the Infrastructure on the Moon to justify the cost of building a mass driver.

Anyway, if Starship Expendable (Not Really) can be mass produced perhaps this scheme will prover worthwhile at least for a time.

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What I am looking for with a "Metal-Ship" is what might be the best price for unit of mass from the surface of the Earth to LEO, then an efficient way to have a tug bring it from LEO to LEO+ where it would be rendered into its best use.

Ideally it would all be Aluminum, but of course the more so the more modifications would be needed.  But to start with maybe everything in the upper half Aluminum?

Then the Stainless Steel tanks to follow another path maybe as a Star-Kicker.  The Raptors perhaps brought back down to Earth.

To concept of a Star-Kicker suggests that the booster would be discarded.  But what if after it finished it's burn, it was repositioned to the nose of the Starship on route to the Moon that it just boosted, and then it would be carried as a metal propellant Cargo to a Moon proximate station such as perhaps "L1" or a Low Lunar Orbital station?

Then it would not be wasted.  Raw materials extracted from the Moon might be used to furnish it so that it could be habitat for humans or robots.  Or it could be rendered into metal propellants.  Stainless Steel will be different than Aluminum as a propellant, but still in time the ability to render it into rods of pellets for Neumann Drive or MagDrive might be evolved.

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So, this bog thing is to some extent a giggle.  But it may point in a good direction.  Some soils and climates may give permission to do these things.  If Carbon in the atmosphere is such a terrible thing then the correct thing to do is to find ways to incorporate Carbon into mechanisms that may benefit people.

There is a possibility that such bogs and floating islands may produce some Methane.  But if you can collect it and burn it, then you only emit CO2, but you are on balance sequestering Carbon in the vegetation that you used to make your Floating Island and bog.  IF you lay a sheet of poly in a sandwich method into the structure of the floating island you might have a means to collect the Methane.  Then burn it and then port the CO2 under the island to be tiny bubbles entrained into the structure of the floating island.  Helping tp pickle the vegetation of the floating island.

Most schemes to sequester Carbon require an expenditure of resources to produce nothing.  So then just another trick from the Elites to try to render the common people into burdened surfs.

A rotating floating island could have gardens under its solar panels.  As there will be lots of water, you can have a sprinkler system that could both ward off frosts, and fight fires.

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Here are two "Libraries" I would choose to consul.

1)  Space Startup News: https://www.youtube.com/@SpaceStartupNews/featured

2) ANTHROFUTURISM: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Anthrofut … pc=EDGEXST

I am listening to an Anthrofuturism video where it is said that moving Oxygen from the Moon to LEO is not practical without a Lunar Mass Driver.  I like having that defined.

But I would still hold hopes of supplying resources to a Low Lunar orbit Station and the "L1" location.

The other site: Space Startup News gives me the impression that Aluminum is a good propellant for Neumann Drive and Magdrive.  Also that Lithium is not a good propellant.  So, several companies will have reusable 1st stages, and the 2nd stages may or may not be reusable.

There is already concepts of a one-time Starship 2nd stage.  For now, this is largely made of Stainless Steel.  I think the Stainless Steel could also be used as a metal propellant, but Aluminum is likely preferred.

So, you could Launch a Disposable Starship 2nd stage to LEO, and fill its Cargo with Stainless Steel propellant rods or bullets.  But it might make sense to fill it with Aluminum metal.

SpaceX is saying to make 10,000 ships a year.  Well, some will be boosters, I am sure.

So then to make a one-time Starship 2nd stage why not use the Aluminum payload to reenforce its structure to the degree possible.

So, then the Ships are then towed to a salvage yard perhaps LEO+ in orbit, and the facility having the ability to use the Stainless Steel and Aluminum as materials goods.  The ship would not have any formal Cargo.  The Raptors and other desired parts might be returned to the Earth's surface.

So, a Starship that has a dry mass of 90 tons and a payload capacity of 210 tons to orbit (Disposable mode), would be actually a dry mass 300 tons of structure only.  The Aluminum structure would allow less other materials like Stainless Steel.

The point being to in a most efficient mode lift metals to orbit from Earth.  Much of the metal to be propellants, but some perhaps to be used in structures.

As the ships will not reenter the Earth's atmosphere, Stainless Steel may not be required for much of the structure.  This would provide metals for electric propulsion as its primary objective.  Metal Electric Propulsion may then allow moving canisters of substances that can be used to make combustion oriented propellants to higher orbits.  Of course I favor Water, Carbon or Carbon Compounds, and Iron Oxides at this time.

So then to provide refilling stations at higher orbits in the Earth/Moon system.

Because the building of Partial Aluminum Starships would probably be done almost entirely with Automation/Robot, we might hope that their mass production would be relatively economic in result.

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I can accept your curiosity (th).  But I am that you played a race card and also did the

My concern is for you Spacenut.  Mine only lasted 2 hours, but it was scary.  Probably a blood clot, maybe from covid?

Anyway they checked everything  EVRYTHING!  All good.  No permanent damage.  But I am on B. Pressure and Colesteral plus a baby aspirin.

The mini-stroke let me know that I could malfunction at any time.  Maybe good to know.

It has been a year or two.  But I avoid stressful burdens and try to keep happy.

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I have expanded the title of this topic with the phrase ", and Roller Solar".

Both a rotator platform and "Roller Solar" can probably use ganged collective actuation for collections of solar panels mounted on them.

I will reference "Roller Solar" here now, bringing materials into this topic:

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 39#p237139

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 48#p237148

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 54#p237154

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 55#p237155

Buth turntable and roller schemes provide one axis of rotation.
I feel that either could implement rows of solar panels that can have that have mutual linkages that can orient them to the sun.

A visual for that might be vertical or horizontal window blinds.

While this may give the best pose to the sun's movements in the sky, it might also allow the panels to be posed in a manner to endure weather conditions that can cause damage, by wind or hail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_blind
Imagine that this is a collection of solar panels: Image Quote:

Imagine that the sun is at the left of the image.  The panels would be too close together. but the concept is represented.

The primary axis of rotation is to spin horizontal with the floating island, and between vertical and horizontal for the roller.
Each presents a flat surface upon which hinged solar panels can be attached.  Linkages can "Gang" these panels.

So for the primary orientation, you could have a singular method of actuation and positioning.

For the flat island, that will be an orientation of the whole structure.  For a roller system the roll is the primary be a roll, which will be controlled by a single method of actuation and orientation.

The will both present a flat surface to the sun, upon which a collection of solar panels can be linked to be actuated and positioned as a collection.

To protect from wind, perhaps the solar panels can be "Locked Down" to the flat surface.

To protect from hail, perhaps an approximately vertical position would be appropriate.  But that might expose the panels to damage from the wind.  So, not perfect protection.

Otherwise, orientation can be according to energy concerns.

A solar panel may have a cooling pigment on its back side, and in the night might lie flat with that cooling surface exposed to the sky.

So, if you have a water reservoir, you might cool it at night and use the cooled water to cool the solar panels during the day.

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I have been seeing notions that electrolysis of water is becoming more practical.

This article suggests such a gain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le4tH9qHjrw
Quote:

It seems sensible that over time the technology will improve not get worse, as long as social structures for technology are stable.

This would support making propellants on Mars, but of course will matter in other places in space.

Of course I am thinking of "Water Stations".

A "Water Station" might have "Storm Shelters" for radiation storms, but when the supply of water stored on the "Water Station" was large, resort to such shelters might be less important.

Water tanks can double as "Farms", and if electrolysis is getting better the production of acetate and Oxygen should become more efficient.

Acetate does require Carbon of course so a "Water Station" should have some.  Maybe even a lot.

So, a "Water Station" might cook up Methane also.

As for Iron Oxide, it might be stored long term, and with the other assets of a "Water Station", It should be possible to reduce the Iron Oxide with Hydrogen and either biological or heating methods.  Then you could have Iron and water and then you could split the water to produce Oxygen.

The Iron can be propellant for Magdrive or Neumann Drive, or you could be able to make some types of Steel, depending on the ingredients available.

So bulk items to store at a "Water Station" might include water ,Carbon or Carbon compounds, Iron Oxide, and other smaller amounts of substances.

A "Water Station" could cook up a batch of propellants for a mission, "Just in time".  "An old catch phrase).

This would avoid having large amounts of stored explosive substances that will require active cooling.

Ending Pending

As amendment to the just prior post, I again mention two other Moon fostered methods that could perhaps be used as parallel boosters to get a spaceship off of the Moon without the boosters themselves using Metha-Lox.

1) Alice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_%28propellant%29 If I understand how this works, nanoparticles of Aluminum mixed with ice combust, producing heat and liberating highly expanding Hydrogen.  At least for now I think that is how that works.

In any case if the Moon has sufficient water and the production of Nanoparticles from Lunar regolith becomes possible then it may be that such boosters could be strapped onto a ship like a Lunar Starship, to assist it to Lunar orbit.  This would reduce the consumption of liquid propellants of the Starship to get to that orbit.

While the Alice Boosters could be expended, on the other hand perhaps they could be brought to the nearest "Water Station" to be repurposed as metal products.  Or they might ride back down to the Lunar surface to be refilled and reused.  But I think the casings might be heavy, so that might be propellant costly.  Not sure.

Here is some support for what I have said: Quote:

2) A concept which has been investigated is a paste of LOX and nano aluminum as a propellant.
It has some problems as it has to be squeezed like a toothpaste into a combustion chamber and they had to use liquid Nitrogen to keep it from burning back into the propellant tank and causing a uncontrolled fire and/or explosion.

Perhaps Liquid Oxygen could be used, in a heat exchanger to keep the burn at bay.

I am tempted to suggest modifying the Mixture to be LOX, Water Ice particles, and Nano Aluminum.  This would introduce some Hydrogen to the expansion of the burn.  It may improve performance and conserve water on the Moon.  As it is the LOX/nano particles mix will underperform the burning of Hydrogen or Methane but may be good enough for the Moon.

Here is some material from the internet related to #2 above:
https://space.stackexchange.com/questio … ant-source
Quote:

For the Hybrid concept, I wonder if a pre-burner which would mix a smaller part of something like Paraffin to combust with a larger part of LOX could then be fed to burn the Aluminum.  That would then introduce Hydrogen into the exhaust which might improve the expansion.

Or perhaps somehow water steam might be injected into the heated Oxygen to introduce Hydrogen.

That might improve the results I would hope.

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Well, that is appreciated.  In the USA, it is the first applicant that can get the patent, I think.  But this having military applications, likely it would be seized for national security.

I have had a Mini-Stroke, which left no permanent damage.  I am medicated for it, so hope I will not get a repeat.  But I am old, and cannot deal with the stress to do a patent, or to start a business.  Those things are full of sharks anyway, if anything of value exists, you can bet some shark will find a way to take it.

But this is my idea of doing volunteer work as a senior.  I hope to make recompense for poor works that I may have done in my earlier life.  I do not like to remember the times I did not do a good job.

It is either this or do nothing.  My understanding is that God does not like a talent given to be wasted.

And I like doing it anyway.  Good chances someone will do better eventually, but then I will perhaps have stimulated that occurrence.

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This post depends on prior post materials. 

For now, I am more equipped to formulate useful questions than to give more solid definitions of answers.

Some people will get hooked on a binary contest Hydro-Lox vs. Metha-Lox.  I Don't want to get hung up on that.

Metha-Lox is a good choice for Earth<>LEO, and Mars<>Earth.  It is still useful elsewhere, and perhaps even materially supported elsewhere such as Carbon from Phobos or Deimos.  But for the moment I want to contemplate a "In Space Backbone based on Hydro-Lox".

So, a question is, what are the possible sources of propellants for that, and what is the relative ease of use?

For the Earth, what is the most useful method to get LOX and Hydrogen in orbital situations?  The current scheme for Metha-Lox is to have extra propellants of Methane and Oxygen on "Tanker" starships.

For Blue Origin it could be a similar method involving Hydrogen and Oxygen. 

But I think we rapidly get to a condition where tanks of water may be more practical, presuming you have methods to process it somewhere in orbital space.  For instance, a "Water Station" in LEO, or one in "L1" or one on the surface of the Moon.  I think that those are the three most interesting.  And if you wanted to do "Metha-Lox" as well you could also bring a Carbon containing compound with the water.  But I am seeing a "Water Economy" in orbit as being simpler, so for now I will give it a Keep It Simple Stupid.  (KISS).

As "Up-Mass", from the surface of the Earth to LEO, I think water to be much easier to handle than cryogenics.  I think the avoidance of explosive potential, they moderation of substance temperatures, and perhaps the volume issue may be in its favor.

For instance, if you split water into Liquid Hydrogen and Liquid Oxygen, I am not sure, but I think the two substances will take up more volume than water will.  And to store or move to "L1" and store, it will be much easier to handle.  You could probably store it as ice in plastic bags inside of a cargo hold, if you kept the temperatures down., for transit.

Also water in tanks could support forms of bio-productivity, and also more conveniently serve as radiation shielding.

Pause...........

In prior posts "Star-Kicker" was mentioned, and I mentioned a wraparound "Hydro-Lox" belt for Starship.

Blue Origin might do the warp around "Hydro-Lox" Belt as well.

In the use of "Star-Kicker, it is said that it would be used as a Metha-Lox booster for Starship to go to the Moon, and when empty, "Star-Kicker" would be abandoned to a orbit.  Well, when we get good methods of electric propulsion, a tug could go and get it and bring it to a "Water Station".

The wrap around Hydro-Lox belt thruster could be handled in a similar fashion.  Once its Hydrogen was exhausted, it could be ejected to a space orbit and then retrieved efficiently by an electric propulsion device, to a water station.

But you could also not eject it and just carry it with you from "Water Station" to "Water Station".  Very flexible.

Where I have specified three "Water Stations", LEO, "L1", and Lunar Surface, we could add additional ones such as low Lunar orbit, and geosynchronous orbit.  So, then a trip could be segmented even more.  For a "Water Station" in low Lunar orbit, it might need low level propulsion to maintain a more constant orbit.  It could use electric propulsion methods or simply have a small Hydro-Lox engine.  After all it is going to have means to cook up lots of fuel and Oxygen for spaceships.

So, lets presume that the Moon does have lots of water.  If we launch a Starship from the Moon with a wraparound Hydro-lox power pack, you load liquid Hydrogen into the power packs Hydrogen tank, and then also fill the Oxygen tank as full as you consider prudent.  The Methane tank may have residual Methane in it.  Your cargo can be water or Iron Oxide as possibilities.

You launch towards the Low Lunar "Water Station".  You exhaust your Hydrogen.  At this point you may eject the Hydrogen power pack, or may carry it to the Low Lunar Orbit "Water Station".  You refill with fuels, perhaps top off your Oxygen.  If you ejected your power pack you might receive a fresh one.  The power pack you ejected can be retrieved by a robotic electric rocket and brought over to the "Water Station for reuse in the future.

You Launch again from "Low Lunar Orbit" to go to the "L1 Water Station".  Rinse and Repeat.....  Moon>Low Lunar Orbit>"L1">Geosynchronous> LEO, or land on Earth.

The reverse orbit for Starship would be Launch to LEO, likely using Metha-Lox and Raptors alone.> To Geosynchronous with Hydro-Lox assistance> To "L1" by similar > To Low Lunar Orbit by Similar > To the "Water Station" on the Moons surface.

Multiple segment travel is more complicated, but it allows you to greatly reduce "Dry Mass" for your propellant tanks.

And under the surface of this you would have electric rocket propulsions more efficiently moving support substances between point in the path.  For instance, moving tanks of water or ice, perhaps moving electric rocket propellants.

Types of electric rocket propellants I can think of now are, "Argon/Xenon", "Metals and Carbon" (For Neumann Drive or Magdrive).

If this system were expanded beyond Earth/Moon, it may be that substances would be transferred in a similar fashion along segments of paths to various points.  It could result is substances being brought to the Earth/Moon from places like Deimos/Phobos/Mars, or the asteroids.

Ending Pending

Dealing with the posts of the last few days, it should be apparent that the drum has a local load, but the apparatus might also export electricity.  If it has local batteries, then it may export electricity, possibly 24/7 in favorable conditions.  This would use power lines most efficiently as they could be run near capacity under optimum conditions.

The ability to generate Acetate is a method of storing energy as wall, even though it is used to grow "Crops".

I suppose that if you wanted to make a "Drum House" to live in, you could but you would have to deal with its tilting during the day.

At night it could stand still.

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