New Mars Forums

I appreciate your comments GW Johnson.  The deice is exciting.  I hope it will prove out.

I think it would compliment the Starship as to be able do some things very well that maybe the Starship will not.  But I think both schemes may be of great value.

I think Starship has the edge to go to Mars, as Methane is easier to contain against boil off and other problems with Hydrogen.

From what I recall for news articles, the device will only work with Hydrogen as a coolant, but it is very effective in cooling, so that they can endure greater heating on the way down, perhaps being more efficient in sheading inertia.

I hope that this will all hold true.

I also hope the device can be sized up to Starship size.

Lots of hope, searching for evidence. but hopeful.

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It will be very difficult to convey understanding.  We speak a similar language but have different life references.

From our point of view we have a desire to set up a survivable situation going forward.  And if possible, those who think that Greenland should become American, think that with that position they could better protect western Europe.  Your ranks are full of traitors of various kinds, continually undermining the strength of America on purpose.

But if you check the post my post #1, I suggested a circumstance of compromise that I thought would work.  Territory for American Bases that we could not legally be evicted from.  For the Greenlanders, perhaps a commonwealth self-government such as some of our territories have.  Even places that Denmark and it's "Friends"? could have a position in.  Wealth for the Greenlanders and self-government on much of the territory.

But I don't think the current administration has trust at this point because Europeans have become untrustworthy.

We can see forward on the chess board, and we want to avoid some unfortunate possibilities.

The Military Aspect is the most important issue.

Do you realize that while I had to work 64 or more hour work weeks for much of my working life, Europe was on holiday?  But never mind, it was to some degree choice as we were more or less told that we had to provide our retirements.

Now, imagine that this is when the western Roman Empire fell, because the Latins do not know how to work in half of the world.  Imagine that America is the Eastern Roman Empire where the character of the Greeks allowed them to work in Europe, Africa, and Asia.

You can only repel the Russians and try to climb on top of them from time to time until you get your butts kicked once more.

They are not a people you can climb on top of.  If you were the Mongols, you could surround them and make them pay tribute.  But you are not the Mongols and we are nyet! either.  And we are happy on this continent.  Given a chance the Russians will sell minerals to us, if we have money, as I think that they also like money.  So, we need to have money to deal with them (And weapons).

Obviously, we will work with the Russians when we can.  But we will count our fingers.

America has worked with the Russians many times.  We even bought Alaska from them.  If the Orange Man has matters with the Russians, that is not necessarily betrayal, but him doing his duty to America.

The more West Europe becomes trouble for us the more we have to look for other options.

Do you remember WWII, when the NAZI and Japan threw a party?  Now we have a Western Europe where I would be afraid to travel to because they might do something to me for the words, I type on my computer.

Now Carney, the sweet child of Britan and West Europe is over in China trying to sell Canada to China.  That just looks too familiar.

Fascist behaviors in Western Europe and cultivating an Axis power in the Pacific?

We do need to be careful.  The bear may bite, but maybe there are other things to fear in the dark forest.

Half of Western Europe is Socialist, Communist, or Fascist, and have contempt for America.  We will not wait around to be raped.

West Europe had plenty of time to offer a compromise that we could trust.  But instead rushed to judgement.

I am sorry if your silver market does actually go wrong.  I don't think the Orange man did it on purpose.  And I am not gloating.

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There has been some value gained from all of this.

1) We discover that some of the Europeans have some very bizarre behaviors and attitudes.  Good to know, but a bit sad.

2) The Russians don't seem to be aligning to hard again the USA about this (Yet).

Anyone with a sensible mind would have come up with a way for everyone to get what they want, without so much weird behaviors.

I suggested something in post #1.

Since they don't I have a bad feeling about European intentions and what they think about America.

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I appreciate that dudes information.  There is good news and there as bad news.  The bad news first.

The Metal Electric Rockets are energy pigs.  Nuclear Fission seems to be desirable if you want to do any serious orbital changes.

Solar is limited, perhaps practical for station keeping.

But I do still look for an exception on that.  I think that if you had solar power stations on the Moon and beamed laser power to such a machine, the thrust/mass ratio would be better than just on board solar.

As another factor this also could be true for solar power plants in orbit of Mars made from the materials of Phobos and Deimos.

The good news is a process of selecting The Least Ugly Propulsion System.

Nuclear Thermal is uglier than it might seem, because "Where do you get the Hydrogen?".

Yes Starship could lift Liquid Hydrogen to LEO, but it is a volume pig.

And if you get to the Moon, can you get enough Liquid Hydrogen from the Moon to come back?

Similar, if you go to Mars.  OK, you have to make and store sufficient Liquid Hydrogen?  Can your ship land on Mars and take off from it using Nuclear Thermal?

So, I see Nuclear Thermal as ugly.

Nuclear Thermal with water is about as good as rocket's using a combustion process.  Can you land on Mars, can you take off without making the place more radioactive?

So, Nuclear Thermal with water is ugly also.

Nuclear Electric might use Argon, and it might get Argon from the Earth, Mars, and maybe the Moon.  Maybe.  So, it isn't that pretty.

Nuclear power could be used to cook up combustible rocket propellants, and that can work if you want a fairly quick trip, but it is not that efficient. 

Nuclear Electric with Metal Propellants is an energy pig but is efficient with propellants.  But it is mostly too slow for human passengers.

So, this seem to be the prettiest option available:

So, none of them are as pretty as we might want but the combination of options in the quote shaded area is the only one worth dealing with, I think.

Good to know though.

The Chemical and Nuclear Electric Metal options can enhance each other.

I think the dude is right.

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Perhaps I can improve on the post #232.

The Expendable, (Not Really) Starship, may have the standard "Locomotive" parts.  The propellant tanks, and engines primarily.

The Fairings would be Aluminum if possible.

It could carry a cargo, the Aluminum being lighter than the standard Stainless Steel.

At LEO, the ship will react any remaining CH4 and O2 to create water, and store it and possibly to create CO2 and Store it. (Or dump it overboard).

A tug, possibly electric in nature would move the Starship up to LEO+ where a "Rendering" space station would exist.

The Locomotive will be repurposed as a Star-Kicker to be a booster for a Starship headed beyond LEO+  Perhaps some of the Raptors will be removed.

The Cargo will be removed from the Aluminum Fairing.

The Aluminum Fairing will be rendered into rods of pellets for Neumann Drive or Magdrive respectively.

The Star-Kicker will be used to boost a Starship to an objective likely with human crew in the Starship, needing fast delivery.

The Star-Kicker will be abandoned into an orbit, most likely of Earth.

A Metals(Aluminum) Electric Rocket will on it's way to the Moon perhaps, intercept the abandoned Star-Kicker and grab it and take it to Lunar orbit or maybe "L1".

Although it is said that Lunar Oxygen lifted by rocket to LEO would not be economic, I am hoping that it may be more likely that Lunar Oxygen lifted to Orbit by rocket will be practical.  So, the Star-Kicker will be filled with enough Lunar Oxygen to land.

Methane will have to also be provided.  Perhaps Hydrogen from the Moon and Carbon from Earth for that?

The Star-Kicker will land on the Moon and become an addition to the Infrastructure on the Moon.

I do desire that eventually a mass driver will be possible on the Moon, but before that, this system in this post might assist the build up of the Infrastructure on the Moon to justify the cost of building a mass driver.

Anyway, if Starship Expendable (Not Really) can be mass produced perhaps this scheme will prover worthwhile at least for a time.

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What I am looking for with a "Metal-Ship" is what might be the best price for unit of mass from the surface of the Earth to LEO, then an efficient way to have a tug bring it from LEO to LEO+ where it would be rendered into its best use.

Ideally it would all be Aluminum, but of course the more so the more modifications would be needed.  But to start with maybe everything in the upper half Aluminum?

Then the Stainless Steel tanks to follow another path maybe as a Star-Kicker.  The Raptors perhaps brought back down to Earth.

To concept of a Star-Kicker suggests that the booster would be discarded.  But what if after it finished it's burn, it was repositioned to the nose of the Starship on route to the Moon that it just boosted, and then it would be carried as a metal propellant Cargo to a Moon proximate station such as perhaps "L1" or a Low Lunar Orbital station?

Then it would not be wasted.  Raw materials extracted from the Moon might be used to furnish it so that it could be habitat for humans or robots.  Or it could be rendered into metal propellants.  Stainless Steel will be different than Aluminum as a propellant, but still in time the ability to render it into rods of pellets for Neumann Drive or MagDrive might be evolved.

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So, this bog thing is to some extent a giggle.  But it may point in a good direction.  Some soils and climates may give permission to do these things.  If Carbon in the atmosphere is such a terrible thing then the correct thing to do is to find ways to incorporate Carbon into mechanisms that may benefit people.

There is a possibility that such bogs and floating islands may produce some Methane.  But if you can collect it and burn it, then you only emit CO2, but you are on balance sequestering Carbon in the vegetation that you used to make your Floating Island and bog.  IF you lay a sheet of poly in a sandwich method into the structure of the floating island you might have a means to collect the Methane.  Then burn it and then port the CO2 under the island to be tiny bubbles entrained into the structure of the floating island.  Helping tp pickle the vegetation of the floating island.

Most schemes to sequester Carbon require an expenditure of resources to produce nothing.  So then just another trick from the Elites to try to render the common people into burdened surfs.

A rotating floating island could have gardens under its solar panels.  As there will be lots of water, you can have a sprinkler system that could both ward off frosts, and fight fires.

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Here are two "Libraries" I would choose to consul.

1)  Space Startup News: https://www.youtube.com/@SpaceStartupNews/featured

2) ANTHROFUTURISM: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Anthrofut … pc=EDGEXST

I am listening to an Anthrofuturism video where it is said that moving Oxygen from the Moon to LEO is not practical without a Lunar Mass Driver.  I like having that defined.

But I would still hold hopes of supplying resources to a Low Lunar orbit Station and the "L1" location.

The other site: Space Startup News gives me the impression that Aluminum is a good propellant for Neumann Drive and Magdrive.  Also that Lithium is not a good propellant.  So, several companies will have reusable 1st stages, and the 2nd stages may or may not be reusable.

There is already concepts of a one-time Starship 2nd stage.  For now, this is largely made of Stainless Steel.  I think the Stainless Steel could also be used as a metal propellant, but Aluminum is likely preferred.

So, you could Launch a Disposable Starship 2nd stage to LEO, and fill its Cargo with Stainless Steel propellant rods or bullets.  But it might make sense to fill it with Aluminum metal.

SpaceX is saying to make 10,000 ships a year.  Well, some will be boosters, I am sure.

So then to make a one-time Starship 2nd stage why not use the Aluminum payload to reenforce its structure to the degree possible.

So, then the Ships are then towed to a salvage yard perhaps LEO+ in orbit, and the facility having the ability to use the Stainless Steel and Aluminum as materials goods.  The ship would not have any formal Cargo.  The Raptors and other desired parts might be returned to the Earth's surface.

So, a Starship that has a dry mass of 90 tons and a payload capacity of 210 tons to orbit (Disposable mode), would be actually a dry mass 300 tons of structure only.  The Aluminum structure would allow less other materials like Stainless Steel.

The point being to in a most efficient mode lift metals to orbit from Earth.  Much of the metal to be propellants, but some perhaps to be used in structures.

As the ships will not reenter the Earth's atmosphere, Stainless Steel may not be required for much of the structure.  This would provide metals for electric propulsion as its primary objective.  Metal Electric Propulsion may then allow moving canisters of substances that can be used to make combustion oriented propellants to higher orbits.  Of course I favor Water, Carbon or Carbon Compounds, and Iron Oxides at this time.

So then to provide refilling stations at higher orbits in the Earth/Moon system.

Because the building of Partial Aluminum Starships would probably be done almost entirely with Automation/Robot, we might hope that their mass production would be relatively economic in result.

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I can accept your curiosity (th).  But I am that you played a race card and also did the

My concern is for you Spacenut.  Mine only lasted 2 hours, but it was scary.  Probably a blood clot, maybe from covid?

Anyway they checked everything  EVRYTHING!  All good.  No permanent damage.  But I am on B. Pressure and Colesteral plus a baby aspirin.

The mini-stroke let me know that I could malfunction at any time.  Maybe good to know.

It has been a year or two.  But I avoid stressful burdens and try to keep happy.

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I have expanded the title of this topic with the phrase ", and Roller Solar".

Both a rotator platform and "Roller Solar" can probably use ganged collective actuation for collections of solar panels mounted on them.

I will reference "Roller Solar" here now, bringing materials into this topic:

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 39#p237139

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 48#p237148

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 54#p237154

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 55#p237155

Buth turntable and roller schemes provide one axis of rotation.
I feel that either could implement rows of solar panels that can have that have mutual linkages that can orient them to the sun.

A visual for that might be vertical or horizontal window blinds.

While this may give the best pose to the sun's movements in the sky, it might also allow the panels to be posed in a manner to endure weather conditions that can cause damage, by wind or hail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window_blind
Imagine that this is a collection of solar panels: Image Quote:

Imagine that the sun is at the left of the image.  The panels would be too close together. but the concept is represented.

The primary axis of rotation is to spin horizontal with the floating island, and between vertical and horizontal for the roller.
Each presents a flat surface upon which hinged solar panels can be attached.  Linkages can "Gang" these panels.

So for the primary orientation, you could have a singular method of actuation and positioning.

For the flat island, that will be an orientation of the whole structure.  For a roller system the roll is the primary be a roll, which will be controlled by a single method of actuation and orientation.

The will both present a flat surface to the sun, upon which a collection of solar panels can be linked to be actuated and positioned as a collection.

To protect from wind, perhaps the solar panels can be "Locked Down" to the flat surface.

To protect from hail, perhaps an approximately vertical position would be appropriate.  But that might expose the panels to damage from the wind.  So, not perfect protection.

Otherwise, orientation can be according to energy concerns.

A solar panel may have a cooling pigment on its back side, and in the night might lie flat with that cooling surface exposed to the sky.

So, if you have a water reservoir, you might cool it at night and use the cooled water to cool the solar panels during the day.

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I have been seeing notions that electrolysis of water is becoming more practical.

This article suggests such a gain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le4tH9qHjrw
Quote:

It seems sensible that over time the technology will improve not get worse, as long as social structures for technology are stable.

This would support making propellants on Mars, but of course will matter in other places in space.

Of course I am thinking of "Water Stations".

A "Water Station" might have "Storm Shelters" for radiation storms, but when the supply of water stored on the "Water Station" was large, resort to such shelters might be less important.

Water tanks can double as "Farms", and if electrolysis is getting better the production of acetate and Oxygen should become more efficient.

Acetate does require Carbon of course so a "Water Station" should have some.  Maybe even a lot.

So, a "Water Station" might cook up Methane also.

As for Iron Oxide, it might be stored long term, and with the other assets of a "Water Station", It should be possible to reduce the Iron Oxide with Hydrogen and either biological or heating methods.  Then you could have Iron and water and then you could split the water to produce Oxygen.

The Iron can be propellant for Magdrive or Neumann Drive, or you could be able to make some types of Steel, depending on the ingredients available.

So bulk items to store at a "Water Station" might include water ,Carbon or Carbon compounds, Iron Oxide, and other smaller amounts of substances.

A "Water Station" could cook up a batch of propellants for a mission, "Just in time".  "An old catch phrase).

This would avoid having large amounts of stored explosive substances that will require active cooling.

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