New Mars Forums

Isaac Arthur only touches briefly on orbital solar.  Even so, this is an interesting video: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
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He does talk about orbital solar thermal power.

Some members here will be more compatible with that than with solar panels.  And I have to agree that recycling Solar thermal Power Plants to new Solar Thermal Power Plants looks more doable than to recycle solar panels to new solar panels in orbit.  So, as far as an orbital junk industry would be concerned, that looks pretty good.  CO2 as the fluid used, I presume, but then you have to get the Carbon from somewhere.

Early on, I expect that solar panels will be used in singular Sun Synchronous, orbits.  But on becoming aged they might be recycled to make things like Solar Thermal Power Plants.

I have already mentioned elsewhere, why I think it would be nice to have One-Time Starships made in part of Aluminum.  The same may be true for Carbon.  If the build process for Neutron of Rocket Lab is as good as they claim, then it might also be used for that.  And Neutron 2nd stages might also be a source of Carbon in orbit.

So, that makes Earth an early source of Carbon.  The Moon is not likely to be a major source of Carbon for orbits. 

I would think maybe Bennu, Ryugu, Deimos, Phobos, and Mars could be considered.  But they are hard to access for those materials.

I have taken a look at Trojan Asteroids of Earth.  They are also hard to access because of the inclination of their orbits.  Of two, the larger on though is said to be Carbonaceous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_trojan
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(614689)_2020_XL5

Obviously, it needs more study.  But its size and the potential that it is carbonaceous are interesting.

With Starship and Optimus, perhaps it could be mined, and industrial facilities could be set up where it could export things to the Earth/Moon.

Anyway, it is a possibility with future technology.

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The Social Amplifier, Falcon 9 has provided reach to attain Starlink.

Starlink, requires a better Social Amplifier, Starship.  Machines/Robots will reduce the labor cost for Starships.

Starship, as a Social Amplifier, will increase Reach to allow for Orbital Data Bases, under the Van Allen Belts and later above the Van Allen Belts and beyond.

Expanded Reach will make more raw materials / resources available to the so called "Civilization"/"Us".

The raw material "Sunlight" makes an expanded set of "Tokens" available for consumption.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Mas to orbit is like a bank account, I feel.

Previously, mass to orbit is mostly subject to early decay.  LEO objects almost always end up as burning up in the atmosphere or placed in "Graveyard" orbits where they become unavailable for further service.

Where Reusable Starship is a desired and needed capability, One-Time Starships may have large value as well.

Robots may make Onetime Starships worth the effort.

This is a contradiction of words for actual circumstances that may be projected.

A Reusable Starship robs orbits of Mass that could be indefinitely reused in orbit.

A One-Time Starship's mass might be reused indefinitely in orbits.

That is a funny thing to understand.

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Urea Brick: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

This attracts me because they indicate that some of this might be done underwater.

As you might know, some of my notions involve creation of covered bodies of water on Mars.  The byproduct Ammonia would not be that much of a problem, maybe even an asset.

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What I read about orbital Data Centers:

https://cdn.geekwire.com/wp-content/upl … Center.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-based_data_center

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So this includes Low Earth Orbits but not Very Low Earth Orbits:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Earth_orbit

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So, I was surprised that "The International Space Station (ISS): Orbits at ~400 km (249 mi) and circles Earth about 16 times per day." is in a VELO orbit, (Below 450 km).

So, Data Centers in higher orbits will require less re-boosting from atmospheric drag.  So, Magdrive and Neumann Drive may be sufficient.

So, then other than a very large passage of time or stupid behaviors, metal and other mass delivered to 1000 km orbits might persist for centuries for reuse at that location.  This is unlike our existing history, where "What goes up, must come down". 

And this then may make unusual boosting methods valuable.  If you could lift mass from a 400 km orbit to a 1000 km orbit by such a means it may be a valuable asset to have.  I suggest tethers and also laser assisted propulsion.  Tethers could work from an induced reaction with the Earth's magnetic field.

Laser assisted propulsion could involve Magdrive or Neumann Drive, where the solar panels receive power from laser beams, those beams emitted by power stations higher in orbit.  This reduces the dry mass of the solar panels required on the Magdrive or Neumann Drive tugs.

I have already suggested a situation where instead of expelling fairings to drop into the atmospehre, some 2nd stages could retain them into a Low Earth Orbit.  Then the Magdrive or Neumann Drive tugs with laser assistance could move them to a higher orbit for consumption.

This might be done with a 1 use Starship.  The one-use Starship might use the fairings to get a payload in its fairing volume to a low orbit, then that fairing would be popped off and given to a tug to move to a higher orbit, maybe a Sun-Synchronous Data-Center orbit.

The Starship propulsion unit then could be refilled and it's cargo attached to it's sides.  Then it might go to the Moon and either drop it's payloads from a small altitude or land with them.

The Engine section might be reused, or tipped over to help make habitation structure on the Moon.

The fairing of the Starship might remain Stainless Steel, but maybe could be changed to Aluminum.  (Not for a Starship that has to aerobrake).

Such a fairing if of Aluminum, (Or Stainless Steel), might be used for propellant for a Magdrive or Neumann Drive tug, but also upon delivery to a Data Center orbit might be converted into radiators and other structures.

There would still be a desire to get stuff from the Moon, perhaps using a Mass Driver system in part, but maybe Iron and Oxygen are the easiest to get from the Moon.  And you might want to get Silicon as well, which may not be that easy.

That is what I think at this time.

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Continuing with the previous post, of course the Starship might be poised 90 degrees from what I showed.

So, either way you have a chassis of Starships Stainless Steel which also has some radiator qualities, in a Sun Synchronous orbit.

IF Earth "Civilization" remains sensible for 1000 years, you can keep reusing that mass that had an original cost, for much of that time, all of that time, or perhaps more than that time.  That is then an valuable asset into the future.

From time to time you might change out the data center "Chips" and other parts, and also the solar panels.

Old Solar panels could be put into a very large solar array somewhere even if they are only 60% as good as they originally were.

Eventually all of the mass might be recycled in various ways.

I think this can be done for Syn Synchronous data centers.  I don't know if the Starlink Satellites can be recovered to a higher orbit for a reasonable price.  It would be good if they could be.

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Here is a video about a data center that has been tested, apparently: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
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I only partially understand, I expect but I will do dialog based on the little I know, with considerable uncertainty.

I am presuming that the mass of these devices might be divided into 5 basic parts.
1) Chips
2) Shielding from radiation
3) Solar Panels
4) Radiators
5) Connective Structure.

My understanding is that the data centers in sun synchronous orbits will have less atmospheric drag than Starlink Satellites will.  Data Centers will be in a higher orbit, so orbital decay rates should be much lower.

Items #1 and #3 are the ones that may become outdated soonest, I think.
Items #2, #4, and #5 might be strongly reusable/repairable.

#1 replaced are perhaps to become basic junk materials.
#3 replaced, might be put into a solar power platform, even if they do not perform well anymore, I think.

My understanding is that solar panels on Earth may still be 60% efficient after 100 years of use.  So, perhaps after they would be scavenged off of a data center satellite, they might have a second use in a solar power platform.  That is my speculation.

@2, #4, and #5 may be reusable long term (Or not).

Here is a video about Mass Drivers on the Moon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DUydTgyGQ0&t=16s
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But before that, I suggest something that maybe would be sensible.

I am speculating that you could make a one-Launch Starship with Aluminum as the upper part, but still using Stainless Steel for the propulsion systems, more or less.  The Aluminum Fairing might be popped off and recycled to perhaps make radiators or other structures for Satellites.

The propulsion section might be refilled and used to move cargo to the Moon.  The cargo might be strapped onto it's sides and dropped from a low altitude or retained all the way to landing.

I have already elaborated on the above paragraphs previously elsewhere, so I will not do much more about it here.  I will suggest that release air bags, might have sub-bags in them with materials that could be used in a 3D printing process, to make machine parts and tools on the Moon.  Powder or chips of a metal inside of cushioning bags inside of a major sized air bag system.

By dropping this prior to landing, the landing legs of the Starship Propulsion device do not have to be as sturdy and might involve less dry mass consumption.

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And regarding the previous 3 posts, you could have unwind slack spooled that you could let out to reduce the shock of a netting event, over time.

A video that explains "Tokens", (Which I did not know): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5O8Shej7bg
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So, all the stuff they intend to invest in satellites will eventually become junk to repair/recycle.

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What about a pendulum Tether or a spin Tether.

If you have a Tether lowered from a platform higher up, you could put a rocket on the bottom of it.

So, my idea is that since the end of the tether will be traveling at less than the speed of a circular orbit, at that altitude.  So, then with a pendulum, can you snatch a satellite on the forward swing which adds speed?

You might also put a rocket engine on the end of the tether, to push it, grab a satellite, and then pull both the rocket and satellite in???

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I respect Dr. Zubrin.  Here is his video against a AI and Moon focus: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

I think he may be a little too worried.  I think the actual intent is to make space AI viable from Earth launches, and then later to experiment with the possibilities of the Moon.  This will allow a lot of hardware to be tested which may relate eventually to a Mars application.  But by running parallel to the Artimus accords, many other nations will sponsor some of that hardware.

I also suspect that Elon Musk has another card up his sleeve for Mars,  I choose not to say what it would be.

But it is important to listen to Dr. Zubrin as well, is one of the clever and aware people.

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Mouse medical achievements often don't transfer to humans but:

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

It is a maybe in my estimation.

By using the bodies systems to clean and rebuild.  It has already been said that nature does not care that much about you after the time of fertility is passed, except that you might serve your descendants genes, or close relatives' genes.

But in general perhaps the math of natural evolution prefers high replacement rate to rebuilding.

But if this has merit of course it will catch on.

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I think that there will be a difference in how materials can be acquired into orbit from various worlds.

1) Rubble Piles, likely can simply have materials removed with special crafted machines.
2) Very small worlds, like Ceres might dominantly use space elevators.
3) Small worlds like the Moon and Callisto might use mass drivers maybe rotavators.  Or at greater expense, rockets.

#1 includes some terrestrial crossing worlds, Demos, Phobos, and the Main Asteroid Belt, the Greek Asteroids and the Trojan Asteroids.
#2 includes Ceres, Vesta, and other exceptional asteroids. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
#3 Includes our Moon, Mars, Callisto, Ganymede, Mercury.

Wields beyond the orbit of Jupiter may tend to be ice bound with less exposed rocky materials.  Although Titan might have dunes of comet dust, (Or not).

#1 could export raw materials, rocks more or less.
#2 could export raw materials and finished materials.
#3 probably has to export finished materials Like Satellites and Rocket Stages with on board propulsion methods.

So, Earth is not 1, 2, or 3.  The Moon is #3.
Deimos and Phobos are #1, and Mars is #3.
The asteroid belts include #1 and #2.

So, although the Moon can be an asset with very large effort, Deimos and Phobos, can offer raw materials to orbit with relative ease.  Although Mars is a grunt, small amounts of what Deimos and Phobos lack can probably be extracted from them.

To get to the asteroid belt is to get the full spectrum of materials to orbits, relatively easy and in bulk.

I favor the sinter shell with a rotator in it to give synthetic gravity.  Here is how the bearings could be handled:

I think current advanced train technology could handle it.  The relative speed at the shown positions of rails, as bearings will be slow enough, I think.  Like a washing machine, it the rotator gets out of balance the speed of the rotator can be reduced, until the load is corrected.

In the prior post I have shown a junction of two sinter jar devices, but 3, 4, 5, and 6 at a junction might be possible.

So, Phobos and Deimos could be converted into enormous platforms with large inertia from which perhaps Mass Drivers might launch loads.
Bringing Ammonia and Methane up from Mars to compliment the materials of the two moons of Mars.

The rotor could be spun up from standstill while vacuum pumps evacuate the area between the sinter shell and the rotor.  In the event the rotor has to be slowed down, a careful refilling of the vacuum with air might help facilitate that.

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I am hoping that Demos/Phobos/Mars & the Asteroid Belt, may be able to send materials to the Earth/Moon orbits and to the Moon.

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https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism Put out a nice video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DUydTgyGQ0
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Two of three possible purposes for this sort of thing are mentioned.
1) Orbital power beamed to Earth.
2) The Lunar Mass Driver Orbital Supply Chain (What this video is about)

A 3) Option which is data centers in space are not worked on.

But it is a very good video, and I learned a bit more about what is possible/practical and why.

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