New Mars Forums

This could apply here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technol … r-AA1S9tWc

This part excites me especially:

This Apple Tree especially.  If you think about it, the solar panels will warm the air where the tree leaves are but cool the ground where the tree's roots are.

And the trees will shed their leaves for the winter which will be good for winter solar energy.

So, a bit more sunlight and infrared from the panels to warm the leaves, possibly extending the farming to somewhat higher latitudes, but the retention of soil moisture, perhaps extending the farming to somewhat water deficient places.

The emergence of robots could groom these lands, and they may be good places for people to raise children.

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I do like the work of Peter Zeihan, but he is not perfect or (A god, nor should he need to be).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG6j0eu … M&index=14
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But good for him, he does get a lot pretty close to right at times.

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I need to give a chance to people to understand that the change in attitude of America about the world is not a chosen option.  It is like the tide coming in or going out.  You might have be used to it being one way and now it is going to go back to the other way.

You will be silly to try to stop the tide.

There are four domains of similar properties.

1) Europe (This does not only include the post Roman lands.  It includes places like Hungary and Russia).
2) India (India is largely balanced unlike Europe).
3) North America (North America is in the process of re-acquiring its Eurasian half).
4) South America (This place has many Native American genomes even in the cone it is evolving).

These things are natural, I believe.  Not only are their patterns, but they oscillate.

You cannot fight against such an oscillation as you might against a nation or set of nations.

It is extremely rude for Roman Europe to demand that the USA be only Roman in nature.

America is only claiming back what belongs to it.

Do not be so stupid as to think you Roman Europeans know how to play this game better than we do.  We have the plan for survival, joy , and prosperity you have a plan for disaster.  We have tried to work with you and you have been increasing levels of wrong.

Even if you could eliminate the MAGA, it would continue to rise.  It is a natural tide.  You must ride it does not stand in its way.

Why does this structure exist?  Well, I am not sure, but I see it.

Don't be stupid.

We don't all want to die in flames with your stupid desire to fight the tide.

I think that the problem with the British is this.

The strip of land from England to Sweden was to some small degree one thing.  But the Arfican/Asian polarity English/Swedish was too reactive.  It could not be held together for more than a small amount of time.

The English in finally by force and bribe thinking that Scotland was an easy take-down, think that the entire Eurasian community must also bow to them.

But if you look on a global map you will see that the English did better around Africa than China.

America has with great trouble bridged this gulf we function on both sides where Britian is asymmetrical towards Africa.

We do not want to be dragged into your outdated stupid way of managing in the world.

We most likely can manage much better than that.

So, I would ask you to get rid of your colonial intentions towards the USA, as we don't want it.

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As a supplement, to the previous two posts, Lake Bakal in Russia may provide species suitable for a freshwater ecology in a "10 Foot Sea" on Mars.

Occasionally a part of the salt water ocean gets slowly converted to fresh water.  This seems to be the case for Lake Bakal.

So, it has some ocean similar life that is now adapted to fresh water.  And it is a cold lake.

https://baikalfoundation.ru/en/our-work … ke-baikal/

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To append to the just previous post.

The heat in the "10 Foot Sea's" may increase too much.  If you are dealing with fresh water then the water at the floor of the sea could be at as much as 39 degrees F, before turnover would happen.  The water just under the ice would be 32 degrees F.

(3.88888889  to 0 C)

So we do not want to melt too much more of the ice above if we think that 10 feet is ideal.

So, if you have a nuclear reactor, you could use its electricity to run heat pumps to pull heat out of the bottom water.  That could be used to heat things like habitats and Industrial Processes.

While you could melt the "10 Foot Sea's" with nuclear reactor water, the "10 Foot Sea's" will really be solar thermal heat storage.

First you generated chemicals that organisms could consume.  Then the organisms gave off waste heat.  The span of (3.88888889  to 0 C)
represents a mass storage of heat that a Heat Pump system could extract.

If you have saltwater things can get to be different.  In fact it is possible to store much higher heats with salt gradients, but on the whole ice water may be very useful.

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A video that talks about AI data centers in space: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bne1Z_8j3uU
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The progression seems to be:
1) SpaceX or other capable.
2) Starlink
3) Sun-Synchronous Data Centers in space.
4) Moon
5) Mass Driver.

Sounds pretty good, I am rather comfortable with #1-#4.

#5 might be a teething problem.

Anthrofuturism has some videos about mass drivers: https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism
Here is one of their videos, I feel I should review some more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxXbgalpheQ

It is actually quite beyond my paygrade.  I am just not that mentally capable.  Not so far at least.  So, fine, if they figure out how to make a Mass Driver for the Moon, I will be delighted.

As a backup plan, I would like to speculate on an alternative that maybe would work.

1) SpaceX or other capable.
2) Starlink
3) Sun-Synchronous Data Centers in space.
4) Moon
5) Matter and Energy Projectors.
6) Retrieval of Deimos/Phobos/Asteroid mass to CIS Lunar Space.

For Matter Projectors, I would include:
a) Mass Drivers, if possible.
b) Electron Beam (Electrons have mass).
c) Lunar Lasers could project Photons which have inertia, I believe.
I wish....
d) Neumann Drive (As a matter projector).
e) Magdrive (As a matter projector).

I have already hoped that it might be possible to beam atoms of a conductive material from the surface of the Moon to impact on a orbital target device.

I do worry that the beam may spread too much.

The hope is that something like Iron atoms might vacuum welt to the target rather than to erode it.  Silicon would be another material of interest, as well as Aluminum.

A question would be, can you use electron beams to manipulate this process?

https://www.space.com/space-exploration … ravel-tech

Perhaps the beams could push or contain the atom projections.  Or perhaps if the target was charged to a very high (-) charge, it might attract the atoms.

I don't know these things.

If electrons could push a spacecraft to interstellar missions, perhaps then perhaps electron beams could push the targets to help maintain the orbits of them.

The atoms projected might also push the orbit of the targets that they would hit and we hop would weld to.

It this would work, then you would have matter to help make data centers with, and would also have matter in orbit that you could use to drive a spaceship to asteroids, using Magdrive or Neumann Drive.

At the asteroids with small gravity wells you might gain more Iron Silicon, Aluminum for propellants.  But I would hope things like Hydrogen and Carbon that might be brought back to CIS Lunar Space.  These may also be available from Demos and Phobos.

This would help integrate those moons into an early solar system economic structure.

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Perhaps however Carbon and Hydrogen might be available to CIS Lunar space instead.

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Void the evil has rebelled against (th) and is revising site selection.  Back to this: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html

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This ice slab seems to have "Splosh Craters".

Thise may allow for an Amphitheatre Solar Collection Scheme.
This scheme which might be applied to Korolev Crater could also be applied to some degree here:

Unlike Korolev, there is not a pool of ice in the center, but the crater itself seems to be carved out of a giant slab of ice.

We might place solar devices on the south facing inner rim.  This could be solar panels or a collection of mirrors.

Yes, solar power on Mars is not as good as on Earth, but it exists.  The other options that might come into play might be Nuclear, Geothermal, or Orbital Solar.

Orbital Solar only makes sense as if we are to make Mars to some degree a "Second Earth", The Earth soon will be likely to have massive orbital solar installations to support data centers, and to some limited degree perhaps to transfer power to and from the surface of the planet.

Some very important specs for the ice sheet are listed here:

Kansas is close to the latitude of Spain, which is a place which will have winter sunshine, and is likely suitable for solar energy.

While Mars has dust problems/storms, it also does not have snows, or hail that we know of and the atmosphere is thin.  We would not expect many clouds to block the sun.

When solar works at this location it should work well.

An interesting solar setup for Mars could involve Heliostat mirrors, Solar Panels to receive light from the mirrors, and a heat pump to extract heat from the solar panels to keep them cool/cold.

It is evident on Earth at this time that Heat Pumps could generate heat as much as 180 Degrees C.  Expectations are that they will do better in the future.  While during day time both Electricity and industrial heat could be obtained, at night heat could be rejected by the heat pumps and solar panels.

The Ice Slab Scheme needs things to be solved, but might offer some level of promise:

And keep in mind that this ice slab is the size of California and Texas.

We do not know what the regolith under the ice is like, perhaps sometimes it is rubble, (Icy or Dry), or a lava layer maybe with a lava tube, or Sandstone.

A Starship landed successfully in a VOID, without crash or cave-in then will instantly be much more protected from the Martian environment.

Once the VOID was sealed up it may even be possible to pressurize the VOID.

Some VOIDs could grow mushrooms, or maybe even Apple Trees.

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This seems to be good clean fun: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
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I need to hear it again.  I sounded really interesting in my car.  Explaining current reality.

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So, at the core of this would be "Inflated, Frozen, Mud-Balloons".

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Probably the walls of the arch need to be much thicker than what I show here.

The Mud would be composed of dirt, water ice, and fibers.  The fibers could be organic grown, or mineral wool, or plastic fibers of manufacture.

Regolith might be about 3.0 specific gravity, I think.

On Mars, about 100 feet of water can give a pressurization of about 1000 millibars.  I believe that that is about 30 meters.

Ice is less dense so perhaps you need about 110 feet of ice to pressurize to 1000 millibars.

But dirty ice, will weigh more, depending on content.  I intend to have a dominantly find regolith mix, with the minimum of ice to bind it together.

I will intend to include some fiber in the frozen mud mix.

I will go with the 3.0 number, so about 33 feet of mud will give 1000 millibars of pressure, if that were so.

There are certain pressure minimums.

Less than 100 millibars might be suitable to some non-vascular life such as Algae perhaps.

100 millibars is perhaps close to the tolerance for most vascular crops.  It is not enough to sustain human life though.

250 millibars of Oxygen is probably about the minimum for human life to be sustained.

333 millibars of Oxygen may be more suitable for human life.

I think a mix of O2/N2 at 500 millibars or more would be better for human life.

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So, 16.5 feet for 500 millibars.

11 feet for 333 millibars.

8.25 feet for 250 millibars.

I would propose this sort of construction primarily to support agriculture, and to give extra space for human do things like walk around and run around.

The three sorts of agriculture I am aware of at this time are:
-Photosynthesis, natural light.
-Photosynthesis, artificial light. (LED's, Fiber Optics).
-Chemosynthesis.

The use of O2 and Acetate is the process of decay product simulation, supporting life.
Using an electrolyze process, O2 and Acetate are produced from CO2 and water.

These simulated decay world products apparently will support Yeast, Algae, and Mushroom life rather well, and vascular plants less well.

My hope is that by adding 1%, 5%, 10% lighting the vascular plants will do well.  Artificial lighting is more expensive than natural light, but on Mars we cannot have natural light as you have to at least have a greenhouse glass.

O2/Acetate is less expensive than natural photosynthesis.

So, the balance of O2/Acetate dominant with a small amount of artificial light may be of an acceptable cost.  Keep in mind that it is possible that fiber optics might work.

Ideally then you could grow crops which may provide not only foods but useful fibers.

Now, if someone wants to make glass domes, that is fine.  But I am looking to provide bulk agriculture at a reasonable cost.

The mud domes will be filled with air, to help avoid collapse. 

The domes may have a protective vapor barrier over them and may be shaded by solar panels as well.

The domes may have a poly type film inside of them to help hold air pressure and to help avoid freeze drying.

The domes may have additional supports if they can be afforded, made of stones, Plastics, and metals.  Perhaps domes inhabited by humans may have this expense.

The domes will have a plastic dome inside of them that allows heat pumps to move heat away from the mud domes into a more interior space under such a plastic dome.

The domes may have water/ice pools inside or might have soils.  Maybe soils to grow mushrooms, or soils to grow vascular plant crops.

I think it should be noted that Mars probably has lots of building materials for frozen mud domes.

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Frozen Mud Domes, do not prevent the creation of tunnels and vaults in the solid rock below: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 19#p233319

This would be an extra safety feature.

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(th) Made a request.  I tried to comply.  Since I am confused as to what was desired, I will put the existing work to satisfy his original request here.  https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 66#p235966

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Rather than to put a convex dome into a crater, I prefer on the macro Scale to visualize the greater structure as concave to the sky.

I wish also to include this sort of thing on a smaller scale: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7514

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And from the just prior post this:

My objective is to produce large amounts of structure using relatively low-grade materials to convert into resources.

But high-grade materials will also be used where it has merit.

It is late.

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A "Fourth" Shale Revolution: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
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Key word is "Proppant".

There is some notion I encountered on line that suggested that "Breakeven" price could be $45.00/Barrel.  (Probably best case I think).

So, adding capacity each year.

So, I am also a fan of RethinkX which is about an electric economy more based on wind and solar.

And we apparently are going to have data base demand to satisfy.  Even expanding into space.  So, the energy sector is going to stay big, it looks like.

As I recall when I first encountered his materials, Peter Zeihan did not think that we would be able to do the "Electric Economy" for lack of materials.  Things seem to have improved now.  Aluminum and Sodium Batteries for instance.

The need for global commerce to obtain materials and the possession of a major market plus the avoidance of hookers seems to me now to be the most important aspects of the present situation.

The grooming of money so that "Good" money can be more dominant than "Bad" money.  The avoidance of the emergence of "Mischief" money.

I give high marks to this administration and terrible marks to the previous administration.

"Mischief" money is typically money that is obtained without virtuous behaviors, and which is then applied by people of poor character to warp healthy societies.

Two significant camps for this are Old World Oil Money, and Money from Harmful Drugs.  These are prominent at this time.

It has occurred to me that it is not only the drugs that have a harmful effect, but the conduction of money to the wicked that matter.  Americans ar partially guilty for consuming and so then buying those drugs, but it is those who obtain money while not doing a good service, who entirely carry the blame for how evil money is spent.

Many would be eager to say that Americans are responsible for the drug trade for being the consumers of it.  But during the Opium wars will you also say that it was the Chinese who were similarly responsible?  Does that excuse the entities that support the illegal drug industry?

Oil and natural gas, also have cases of "Mischief" money.  The better the USA satisfies it's own market the less of that there will be around the world.

Money easily obtained in some "OPEC" countries can often become "Mischief" money if the Verbal and Violent are allowed access to it.

So, to make a better world, the less "Mischief" money the better. 

Globalization encourages "Mischief" money, and funnels it into the hands of those who only do evil deeds with their words, minds, and hands.

So, in the case of "Mischief" money LESS IS MORE!

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I suppose I may be annoying you Calliban, but if you could design a dome shaped frame that is reusable, then a mix of fine ice particles and Mars soil could be piled on it.  And a organic fiber such as from a plant or Mycelium from mushrooms, might be added.  A microwave warming process used with a method to tamp the melting mixture would allow a freeze dome.

When completed, shading might be added to the outside using solar panels as an option.

You could then remove the original frame for reuse.

Then you might put a poly film dome inside of that dome.

Then inside of that dome you might put habit or farm methods, such as ponds for Algae, or a Mushroom farm, or even farming with vascular plants.

With an electric power source you might maintain proper temperatures using heat pump technology.

https://modernfarmer.com/2022/07/artifi … synthesis/
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Electricity from nuclear reactors also very welcome.

Maybe this could be tried in the Arctic, Antarctic, and Alpine areas on Earth.

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