New Mars Forums

I intend to try to have a discipline to avoid chat/politics.  I will stay here (I hope) only for technological matters.

I really was excited about this: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

Yes, the story is rather optimistic, but it is good for the soul.

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It might be better if you let me finish a post before you reply.

Anyway, you see, we are drifting apart, and I think that is as it should be.  I believe in a structure in reality.  In time and space.  I think it is like a magnetic field, but I cannot tell you what it is composed of, what sponsors, it.

But it cannot be that things will not change.  So, it should not be strange to you that we might consider leaving NATO, and partnering with Russia.  After all the Russians have lots of minerals, and they like money just as most people do.

If I had conquered Russia, I would import Russians so that they could live in it and be productive.  There has never been a need to conquest Russia. 

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I almost think that I am not allowed to reply, but I will.

Quoe:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/uk … r-AA1Rlhab
Quote:

So, certain powers want to misuse NATO to get conscripted people from other countries into the fight.

NATO is a defensive organization.  Ukraine is not part of NATO.  If some irresponsible people lead the Ukrainians on about this, I am sorry for them as they are victims.

But a pattern of irresponsible behaviors from Europeans and some Americans and maybe Canada, tells me we cannot partner in NATO anymore.  It is like being with a community of irresponsible people who may lead you into a disaster.

Russia was never going to give up the Naval basing in Crimea.  Had Ukraine simply given them sufficient permissions and had the Russian speakers been given internal autonomy, there is a good likelihood that this may not have happened at all.

The Russians probably have tons of Gold and other things they can use to get needed materials on black markets all over the globe.

But you may be right is this continues there is a possibility of a disruption of Russia.  You want to do that again?  Do you recall how well that worked out for the 20th century?  IF we want the Russians and China to play at all they have to get something better than the destruction of their countries.

Quote:

What is the point of that sentence?

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Robert, it may very well turn out that I am too stupid to understand, but your "He Said", is against what others say.

There is a one Star American general from the gulf water that says, Ukraine cannot win and that the Russians will win.

So, it is "He said", "He said", "He said"....................................

Me being as lost as I am, it is a good thing that I am in charge of nothing.

I will say this against you Robert, you strike me as someone who could easily be convinced to go and be fodder on a killing field.

Did this guy turn Commie Russian and the American Government does not lock him up?  https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:

I am afraid I trust him more than you Robert.

Here is something that I am very unsure of as to be real and not deception but it is interesting.  It is yet another "He Said":
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … c4719ce3ec  NATO General: The TRUTH About the Seized Russian Ship | EM Burlingame & Blaine Holt
YouTube
CRYPTO RICH POLITICS
43 views

OK, I am not in a position to want to bet my money or life on any certain view of reality.

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I want to briefly better define the direction of this.

I am being optimistic about Carbon on one or two of the Marian moon.  So, then I am hoping that for orbits of Mars, it may be possible to use CO and O2 combustion for propulsion.

Although it might be possible to spin up the tops with friction on Phobos or Deimos, I am moving towards a parent device that would spin the tops up with rotating magnetic fields.  So then the tops will become flywheels that store energy.

The parent devices might be powered in part with CO/O2 combustion, but for orbital position, and spin, other means may be available.  Perhaps Magdrive or Neumann Drive, perhaps an Oxygen mass driver that ejects Oxygen ice cubes.

So, these spinning tops would need a means to dip down to a small world like Phobos or Deimos, and gather some surface materials.

Then we need a means to rise back up to the parent devices.

We also have a need for a means to transfer the collected "Ore" from the "Flywheel-Tops"< and to the parent devices in Mars orbits.

The tops can also have electric systems in them including an energy source and perhaps batteries.

Some kind of thrusters sufficient for the linear path "Up and Down">

I would prefer to avoid use of combustion propellants, but do not exclude their use.

The parent devices would probably come in pairs, linked to each other so they would not continually build up more and more spin when the would push spin energy into the "Flywheel-Tops".

So, ideally this apparatus can at least partially refill various types of Spacecrafts with propellants.

Again, it may be needed to obtain Hydrogen from Mars itself.

Using mirrors in the orbits of Mars, the energy for this purpose should be relabel from solar energy, unlike the surface of Mars.

So, refilling ships in orbit may be better than to do so on the surface of Mars.  Although you will still want some refilling method on the surface of Mars.

A ship intending to go to Earth/Moon or the Asteroid belt would only need to rise up to orbit and be refilled there, so the refilling on the surface of Mars could be a "Small Partial" refilling.

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So this device is beginning to look like a top: https://fity.club/lists/suggestions/Spinning-Top-Gif/
Image Quote:

We need to keep in mind that the gravity of Phobos and Deimos is rather low.

If it is possible to use the wheeled mouth method to draw dust into this spinning device.  If the bottom is too pointy and sinks in too much then it can be broadened out.

While dust will not naturally cling to all inner surfaces of the device, we can make slag bricks and put them into bags and fasten them to the inner surfaces, to create radiation protection.

I suppose it might even be possible to embed a Standford torus inside of the "Top".

It could be possible but perhaps not sensible.  But the "Top" dust eater is, I think a real possibility.

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OK, I would like to take this a bit further.

Although I would like to Start with a Starship that could enter orbit that may or may not be an option.

1) In accordance with the current plans for Starship on Mars, we will expect to land a Starship on Mars, and refill it and then ascend to Phobos or Deimos to work with it.

2) Alternately using Electric Ion propulsion, we may push a Starship and the mining device from the previous post to proximity of Phobos or Deimos.  This would be stuffed with water ice and CO2 ice but no Oxygen or Methane.  We may need some kind of long term storage propulsion method included such as for the Super Drako's of Dragon.  When it is in place we might try to air brake a starship with humans in it to Mars orbit, or we have to do the method of #1.

If we have the Ice and CO2 Starship in orbit we can put a small cabin in it shielded by these that can host the humans and protect them from radiation.  So probably most of the Cabin and Cargo areas will be occupied by these.  The Oxygen and Methane tanks will be mostly empty, perhaps header tanks will be filled, using some of the water and CO2 and making Oxygen and Methane.

So, we attach this to one or more Starships in an assembly and begin collecting dust regolith into the collection bag.
(This is from the prior Post):

We might have to consume some propellants to do this, to provide the spin and the action to press it into the target.

Once it is filled, we may park a Starship inside of it, and perhaps maintain just a little spin to keep the dust in place.  We need a power supply and a method to bring portions of dust into a maker of some kind, to process it into Oxygen, Iron, and Slag Bricks.

The objective is work up to something much bigger from another post from another topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 28#p236828  A modification of something like this:

The work begins as tedious and slow, but over time this pyramid scheme grows and more and more humans and robots get aboard.

Dust Eather or a modification of it can extend from a much larger structure and go and take bites out of an object and disgorge them into the latest collection chamber.

It is thought by some that Phobos and/or Deimos have Carbon.  They will certainly have Oxygen and Iron.  Hydrogen is a bit of a wild card.  If necessary, it can be brought up from Mars itself by Starships as part of Ammonia which could be stored.

So, this sort of a skeleton of a notion.

If it could work out, then large amounts of Oxygen and Iron may be available as propellants in Mars orbits.  Having Ammonia and Oxygen various propulsion schemes may be possible, including Oxygen/Ammonia, and Oxygen/Methane.  These would not be dependent on surface solar energy, but more reliable orbital solar energy.

You would only need to make Ammonia, and enough Oxygen and Methane on the Surface to get to Phobos or Deimos.  Then you could be refilled for landing, rinse and repeat.  The Ammonia could be used to react with regolith and produce water, and I presume Nitrous Oxide.  Well once you had the water you could keep splitting it, to repeat the reduction of metal Oxides.

Perhaps it would make sense to have an Ammonia/Oxygen engine in the orbits of Mars?

Well, lets call it a "Maybe": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_Motors_XLR99

Maybe Jet Fuel, or RP-1 would be good.  If you could make it on the surface of Mars, then lift it with raptors, then it could be reacted with regolith while heated, in order to reduce the regolith.

Well, I think I will leave it at that. 

I am in favor of having humans both on Mars and in orbit of Mars.  To be in orbit you need good life support with protection but in some ways, the environment is better, some ways worse.

Ending Pending

(th) per: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 70#p236870

I am glad we have a mutual interest.  I did read "The High Frontier" so I understand to some extent what their proposals were.

They hoped to send sacks of Moon regolith by way of a Mass Driver from the Moon to one of the two stable "L" points.

They intended to fine tune the path of the sacks using an electron beam, I believe.  Then they hoped to have the sack rip open on a obstacle and the contents to spill into a rotating drum.

Probably not really workable, as it may cause a lot of trouble with equipment where it might get sand blasted.

But you have to start with a concept and try to make alterations until you can make it work, so they disserve lots of credit for their efforts.

I have seen notions that it is possible to accrete planets in an L4 or L5 zone, in this case Sun/Planet.  But I would like to try accretion into an L4 or L5 Earth/Moon situation.

We appear to have two candidate Matter Projectors the Neumann Drive and the Magdrive.  For sure they will both project Iron, Aluminum, and Copper.  The Neumann Drive can project most items in the Element Table, if they are conductive of electricity.

The High Frontier concept intended that bags of regolith flung off of the Moon would slow down as they approached the "L" point.  Perhaps to hundreds of miles an hour.

Now I will attempt to adapt that.  If we can tame our Matter Projector, to not go full throttle, perhaps we can get the spray to enter L4 or L5 at a reasonable speed.  IF we could use the solar wind to slow it down enough, we might get a capture into the orbit of L4 or L5.  So, the hope is to get is dusty and then accrete the dust.

Easier to say than do, I am sure.

If we can magnetize the dust, (In the case of Iron), then maybe we can get it to clump together).  Possibly an electron beam sweep could magnetize it, just a guess.  Where there is a electric flow, there should be a magnetic field.

But to use the Solar wind to break the dust, it needs to be of a small size, But if we can make it clump up perhaps the solar wind will not sweep it out of the "L4" or "L5" zone.  We also could think to make a massive magnetic field using superconductors, that device to orbit in a "L4 or L5.

So, in that case if we could get the solar wind to deflect the dust towards the magnetic field, it might spill into it an accrete.

For Iron which is below its curie point in temperature, this might work.  For other metals that may have eddy currents, this possibly might work, not sure.  I am not inclined to think that we could catch Oxygen or Oxide materials that I am familiar with.

But if we could project Iron from the Moon and Accrete it to a L4 or L5 location that would be huge.  Because it would be a building material and can be used as propellant in a Neumann Drive or Magdrive.

I might hope that Steel could be used in a Neumann Drive or Magdrive, and that the particles would be Steel, but I suspect that those alloys would be torn apart.  And Steel is typically not very magnetic.

It is possible that we could try to use electrostatics to accrete materials projected to L4 or L5, but I am relatively unsure.

If you wanted to keep either L4 or L5 clean for test equipment like Telescopes you might be able to do that as there are two of them.

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Perhaps it is not known yet, for practicality, I am interested to understand if it is possible to extract Oxygen from the Moon to use even at LEO?

There is some feeling that a Mass Driver is needed to make that practical.  But a Mass Driver is like and Chicken and Egg puzzle.  IF you don't have a process on the Moon to produce a cargo of value then their is no reason for a Mass Driver.  But perhaps if you build a productive process on the Moon and don't have a Mass Driver, then what good is that productive process?

So, the I have a hope, of a transport method that is less than an Mass Driver that can service a productive process on the Moon, until a mass driver process is justified.

So, we might consider the products to move to LEO, from the Moon, Iron and Oxygen.  We could also consider Iron Oxide.

Oxygen if of considerable value, but if you have to make it as a liquid on the Moon, and then transport it to orbit.  Then you have to keep it from boiling off.  That then requires excess mass to keep it liquid.  But Iron Oxide, may bring the useful substances Oxygen and Iron to LEO.

It will not boil, but we face a problem to overcome, that if your Iron Oxide is in the wrong form you might crated a collision pattern if your transport ship explodes.  So, size may matter.  Perhaps dust would be swept away.  Perhaps large chunks could be salvaged and cleared. 

So, Medium size might be the worst.  You have to be aware of sabotage.  Some people see you are servants that should not be going into space but should be serving their desires.  They are slavers.  Sometimes they can even be Leftists.  Baby Kings, that see their poopy diaper as the best use for you.  You are here to change their poopy diapers.

So we want a best process that is not any more vulnerable to Baby Kings than is necessary.

So, if we can bring Iron Oxide to a LEO refinery, where Hydrogen and solar energy, could be used to separate the Iron and Oxygen.  So, then you can use the Oxygen for chemical processes, such as breathing and rockets.  You can also use Oxygen Ice Cubes for propellants in a certain type of Mass Driver propulsion system.  You may use the Iron for building structures, and for propellant for Neumann Drive and MagDrive.

These then can help then to send cargos outward to higher orbits, even to the Moon and beyond.

I do not know if this a virtuous or not.  Is it profitable?  Well we may want to find out.

We did something like that in the Taconite Mines.  We separated magnetic Iron from tailings.  Then we had a concentrate That would be glued with clay and baked into pellets.  So, then the pellets could be made primarily of Iron, Oxygen, and Silica.  It was then suitable to transport and be of a good shape and size for a blast furnace.

On the Moon we may or may not want other substances in the mix than Iron and Oxygen.  Pure Iron and Oxygen may be harder to make, but you may or may not want to have the Silicon in LEO.

Silicon has uses though.  And Silicon can be used in Neumann Drive, I am not sure it can be used in  Magdrive for propulsion.

Anyway, if shipping can be accomplished from the Moon from LEO, that is gainful in result, perhaps eventually when the productive processes on the Moon are large enough, a Mass Driver(s) will be justified, and so the investment money can be justified to build one or more of them.

This is why I have suggested that parallel engines be put onto a Starship.  Such parallel engines which may run on propellants, Hydrogen and Oxygen, or Water and Aluminum may be derived from local Lunar Resources.

While it might be said, "Why don't you just have a Hydro-Lox" ship?  Well, a possible answer if boil off.

IF you have Liquid Hydrogen on the Moon, you can afford to have massive active cooling for that.  But a ship which has both Metha-Lox and Hydro-Lox engines could work like this.  The Hydrogen would be filled into the Ship along with Oxygen from the Moon.  I presume for now that the Methane comes from Earth.  The ship uses both the Methane and Hydrogen engines to lift off from the Moon.  All the Hydrgen is consumed.  It has a lot of power but now it is gone.  You continue with the Methane.   You do not need active cooling for the Hydrogen on the ship or in orbit as it has all been burned.  The Ship lifted a cargo, perhaps of Iron Oxide, and delivers it to a transport.  The ship is refilled in orbit with more Methane and then it goes ahead and lands back on the Moon, using only then Metha-Lox Engines.  The empty Hydrogen tanks and Hydro-Lox engines ride along.

Rinse and repeat.

You might use Alice Engines instead of Hydro-Lox engines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_%28propellant%29

Then of course you need nano-powder Aluminum and water Ice.

Ending Pending

Please note that this post refers also to the prior post that was made today.

The value of Iron Oxide in space.

I wish to add Iron Oxide to the list of materials from the prior post:

Now:

So, now that we have slow-bulk propulsion methods, we then can begin in basic bulk cargo, and then expand that to less basic.

Basic:
-Metals, Carbon, Silicon (These can be use as propellants also, at least in Neumann Drive).
-Carbon (As a ingredient for Hydrocarbon Fuels).
-Water.
-Iron Oxide.

Expanded Basic:
-RP-1 Fuel.
-A water/Peroxide Mix (Needs to not be explosive).
-Other??? (To be determined).

If you have some Hydrogen and a source of heat, you may reduce the Iron Oxide and make water.
Then you may spilt the water and reuse the Hydrogen in the same manner.
Then if you have a mass driver that can expel Oxygen Ice Cubes, you may use Oxygen as a propellant.
Then you may use the Iron in a Neumann Driver or Magdrive.

So, it is my hope that Iron and Oxygen can be refined on the Moon and contrary to what some might think wise the Iron can be Oxidized.
Then if a Spaceship lifts the Iron Oxide to Lunar Orbit, you have lifted a "Pure" propellant to Orbit.

The cost for this then includes the propellants, the LOX from the Moon and the fuel from ???  (The Moon or Earth, or other).

But if the effectiveness of the Oxygen and Iron propellants is valuable enough then the propellants for the Spaceship may be justified.

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I had a dream that was partly lucid about buying a new suit that was very heavy, and had at least 50 Dickies in it.
These seemed to be all different plaids though: https://www.amazon.com/turtleneck-dicki … eck+dickie

I wasn't sure I wanted it but I wondered after taking it apart if I could put it back together again.

Then I woke up and found an unexplained puddle of water on my kitchen floor.

Then I listened to a video that made me wonder if the world is about tiny, brained people behaving in bogus manners, not really understanding, but trying to out-bogus each other?

I will see if I can get the video: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ac1e3bf29f  Quote:

My brain is full.

Pause......................

So, if this had occurred before we had Shale Oil, I am thinking that we would have to buy Foreign Oil with weak dollars.  But this is not currently a problem.  We also have food and fairly good water.

I think I dimly understand.

Our dollar low is an encouragement for foreign people to convert their currency to dollars and buy American produces.  I think.  Tariffs, discourage Americans from buying foreign goods with our weak dollars.

I do keep trying from time to time but I the end I have to plead stupid.  I see glimmers, but not the picture.

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We might avoid too much inflation, as we have quite al lot of resources internal to our country.