Destiny Hall - Keeping the Mars Movement alive

Phobos · 2002-09-21 13:03:03

Instead, what I propose, is just let Mars "sell" itself. Give children a chance to learn about Mars, and become inspired by its inherent beauty. I have a neice that considers Mars to be her "favorite planet, because it's red." No odd-ball copulation proceedure was needed to achieve this: She learned about Mars in school, and has become enchanted by it on her own.

I second that. Nothing will kill an idea faster than forcing people to adhere to it. If you try to force people to be interested in Mars, you can rest assured that just the opposite will happen. And anyhow if I were to go to Mars I'd rather go with people who are going of their own free will and not because they've been programmed with ritualistic Martian mumbo-jumbo down through the ages.

Palomar · 2002-09-21 13:14:39

Instead, what I propose, is just let Mars "sell" itself. Give children a chance to learn about Mars, and become inspired by its inherent beauty. I have a neice that considers Mars to be her "favorite planet, because it's red." No odd-ball copulation proceedure was needed to achieve this: She learned about Mars in school, and has become enchanted by it on her own.
I second that. Nothing will kill an idea faster than forcing people to adhere to it. If you try to force people to be interested in Mars, you can rest assured that just the opposite will happen. And anyhow if I were to go to Mars I'd rather go with people who are going of their own free will and not because they've been programmed with ritualistic Martian mumbo-jumbo down through the ages.

*I third that.

Recall Ayn Rand's statement, "If there are degrees of evil, it is hard to say who is the more contemptible: the brute who assumes the right to force the mind of others, or the moral degenerate who grants to others the right to force his mind." Of course, the latter portion of the quote would ::not:: be applicable to children, as they usually do not have the option of just walking away. I had to quote the entire sentence, considering how it starts out.

Of course, I'm sure Scott will return with his dreamy, drone-like voice rambling on and on...

--Cindy

RobS · 2002-09-21 16:21:27

It really is ideal stuff for a novel. Failing that, there are several thousand utopian communes scattered across the United States, and I am sure one could find a dozen or so people willing to create such a commune/colony, although I doubt they will be found here, and it sounds like there are few in the Mars Society as a whole.

-- RobS

NovaMarsollia · 2002-09-21 17:55:58

One of the favourite arguments of those who seek to tie environmental concerns to terraforming is to say that it is better to go off to space and wreck a planet out there through the imperious search for resources than to do so on Earth, but it seems that those attitudes that promote the rationalism of rampant technocratic, nuclear-philic, capitalist, anti-social and anti-environmental industrialism in outer space are the same as those that promote it on Earth. It is quite ridiculous to think that anti-environmental attitudes and practices in space are going to lead to environmentally-friendly attitudes and practices on the Earth (and vice verca for that matter). If Martian terraformers are really concerned about the environment of their home planet they might like to consider the need to work at the fundamental social values and social relations that directly lead to environmental problems, namely; poverty, inequality, militarism, imperialism amd the anthropocentric values of modern industrialism. The problem for space expansionists, however, is that space expansion as so far practiced is generally the result of these social values and relations. Without militarism, without imperialism, without a social inequality within and between nations and without the technological hubris of industrialism the adventures of Sputnik and Apollo would never have taken place. The challenge for space advocates is in planning space activities that are not contingent upon the existence of militarism, imperialism, social inequality, anti-environmentalism, and industrialism. Only by doing this will space expansionists possess the moral legitimacy of the environmental friendliness that they now profess.

...and, as for 'Human Nature', this is an argument that space colonizationists rely on when they can't think up any really good reasons for space colonization. It's an argument that suggests to us to 'just give in to the inevitable'. It declares that 'it's no use fighting it, space exploration is natural, and fighting against nature is futile!' This line of thinking that Boucher and others use is more of a metaphysical commitment than an argument, however. And tinged with the national mythology of bizarre concepts like 'manifest destiny', it comes to be seen as just the millenial announcements of dreamers and idealogues.

In the early 1960s John Glenn (and others of his ilk) probably used this line of argument to chart the deterministic future course of humanity in space. If you told him in 1962 that the epitome of human space exploration at the turn of the millenium was not in fact the landing of a human on Mars or the setting up of a moon colony but the sending into orbit of a pale old ex-astronaut in a promotional space show so that he could pee in a bottle for TV viewers, he would have laughed at you. But as we can see from the history of the 1962-1999 space programme, the ever-onward march of humans into the Solar System is not happening. And if space exploration and development were 'Human Nature', every human would be interested in it, would have been endlessly supporting it, and it would have happened!

Appealing to 'nature' or 'Human nature' is a dangerous and futile path within space development legitimization, since what is described as natural is just some forlorn hope to take the future out of the hands of contingency and put it into the hands of determinism. And apart from this, everybody out there in the real world realises this. Space expansionists should grow up and realise it to. Why don't you lot just admit it and declare that space colonization isn't inevitable, isn't necessary, hasn't got any social, economic or environmental legitimacy, but that you don't care and you wanna go to Mars anyhow just cos it would be a fun thing to do! Such hedonism would be a little more honest, at least.

Beyond this let me make some points crystal clear:

a) I'm not asking Mars society members to solve the world's problems; I'm asking them to relinquish any idea that Martian colonization can solve these problems.

b) The development of space is not something I disagree with because of the monetary costs involved. This is a shallow argument which does not worry me. If it were the only problem with space development, I might even be an avid supporter of space development myself.

Space exploration is bad for the environment of the Earth becos of:

1) Much current spaceware is used in directly exploiting the Earth. Environmental satellites, for intance, guide eco-disasterous fishing and whaling fleets, oil exploration, mining investments, logging etc. These satellites may contribute to insightful knowledge that helps make environmental policy but more often than not they are used to exploit the environment. Other space technologies (eg weather, communications and military satellites) speed this process up. If this continues into the future, in the vein of Mars society plans, things will get worse because the exploitation will be much more efficient.

2) The launch sites of space vehicles are environmentally damaging. We can all cite the KSC to delegitimise this claim but consider the ESA launch center in French Guiana. A UCLA report has indicated that this space port has devasted both environment and community in the french dependency. The same fate will befall a myriad of other planned spaceports, esp some planned for us here in Australia. If this continues in the vein of Mars Society plans things will get even worse.

3) The terrafoming ideals of Mars developers promote a disposable-planet mentality.They encourage us not to care about the Earth cos there's always somewhere else to go.

4) If space expansion proceeds in the vein of Mars society plans then space industrialists are given more power to dictate the economic and ecological policies back on Earth. If industrialists (both of a space and non-space bent) on Earth are anything to go by, this will mean the massive implementation of anti-environmental policies here on Earth.

5) If space development does proceed in the vein of the Mars Society plans, it will inequitably distribute space benefits. This inequality in materials and power will widen the gap between rich and poor, thrust poor people into deeper poverty, and thus excacerbate their environmental woes.

6) Space exploration contributes to a technocentric, industrialist cornucopianism: the idea that science, technology and capitalist imperialism will solve all our problems. If space expansion proceeds in the vein of Mars Society plans this will get worse.

7) Space expansion, by promising the salvation of Earth and earthlings thru massive technotopian idealism, diverts attention away from the true causes of environmental degradation (on Earth or on Mars): poverty, industrialism, capitalist imperialism, inequality, technocracy.

8) Space expansion priviliges humanity's endeavours over any thing else in the universe. This grand anthropocentric hubris makes humans feel they are the only important thing in the universe and this, when fed back into Earth-based society, will promote anthropocentric policies on Earth that will disregard non-humans and their environments.

There's more where that came from, but ya gonna have to wait for it.

Please realise that my primary political aim while talking about space expansion is not to protect Earth's environment (as plenty of other people are doing that already) but to campaign for the protection of MARS. A pertinent job for an organization called the Mars Society, don't ya think? Or should it be renamed: 'The Let's Pollute and Destroy Mars Society'

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-21 18:15:53

Byron:

In a previous message, you wrote, "While there is general disagreement about how humanity should go about setting up 'house' on the Red Planet, I think the majority of us Mars enthusiasts agree that it will take a collaborative, long-term scientific effort, most likely requiring the resources of entire nations, in order to carry out human missions to Mars, and eventual permanent colonization." I agree that the exploration and colonization of Mars will be "a collaborative, long-term scientific effort." I believe that the design, construction, testing, and operation of a prototype Martian settlement should be carried out in a scientific manner.

The people of Comunidad de los Horcones (Community of the Decorated Wooden Pillars) can provide us with many useful examples of cultural engineering techniques that could be applied to the task of building human sociocultural systems that can sustain and replicate themselves on Mars. The people of Los Horcones, including the children, routinely apply behavior modification techniques to themselves and to each other. They refer to Los Horcones as an "experimental community" and they view their own behaviors as variables that can be experimentally modified. They are collaboratively endeavoring to build "a satisfying and sustainable way of life (i.e., a culture)." The results of some of their experiments have been published in international behavioral science journals.

Los Horcones represents a revolutionary development in the evolution of human culture. The Los Horconans will never be trapped by the dead-hand of tradition; they have and have given their children the power to control the evolution of their culture. The Los Horconans constantly evaluate the effectiveness of their individual and collective behaviors and they know how to design and implement interventions that reshape their culture.

I have suggested that Destiny Hall have a Conjunction Day Calculator. If Clarkeville were built and if it included something like Destiny Hall then I would expect the children who operate the Calculator to evaluate the effect that operating the Calculator has on them and to then modify the Calculator and their corresponding behaviors in order to create something that is more satisfying and more enriching to them. I would expect the children of Clarkeville to be excellent cultural engineers.

The most important thing that we could give to the children of Clarkeville is the power to control their own destiny; i.e., the power to control the evolution of their culture. Whether or not they apply that power to the task of building human sociocultural systems that can maintain and replicate themselves on Mars will be up to them.

Scott

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-21 22:06:23

Nothing will kill an idea faster than forcing people to adhere to it.

Phobos:

I agree that trying to force people to adhere to an idea is counterproductive. I believe that it would be a serious mistake, for example, for the Clarkeville Community Council to appoint someone to operate the Conjunction Day Calculator unless the appointee had volunteered to perform that duty.

Scott

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-21 22:25:22

It really is ideal stuff for a novel. Failing that, there are several thousand utopian communes scattered across the United States, and I am sure one could find a dozen or so people willing to create such a commune/colony, although I doubt they will be found here, and it sounds like there are few in the Mars Society as a whole.
-- RobS

Rob:

I would not look in utopian communes for people who might volunteer to participate in building a prototype Martian settlement. I like the model represented by the Ecovillage of Ithaca (click here). That village is based on the "cohousing" model -- a group of privately owned family residences that collectively own and share a surrounding greenbelt and various community facilities.

The people who live in ecovillages recognize that their sociocultural systems are dependent upon supporting ecosystems. Those people try to preserve their ecosystem so that they can live in an ecologically sustainable manner. I believe that this is a very appropriate model for the colonization of Mars.

I think of ecovillages as "neo-tribal" societies.

Scott

Nirgal82 · 2002-09-21 23:37:11

So, uhhh, Nova...
Even though this particular thread is not related to the topic you have decided to discuss, I will address it. (briefly however, I commend you on the length and thouroughness in your post)
I may have missed the answer to the question I am going to pose to you, but here goes...
What do you suggest humanity, nay beyond that, what do you suggest Earthly life do then?
Stay here in the cradle till we outgrow it and watch it crumble to pieces around us?
I understand how you can perceive industry on Mars as nothing less than the rape of a pure world. However we must go somewhere, and I'm not so sure that Mars will be utterly destroyed as you describe.
I mean hey, I know Earth has seen more than its fair share of pollution and environmental destruction, but it is still the most beatiful and complex place there is, IMHO...
Mars will still be Mars, it will just be a little more "alive" when we are there.
I do agree with you on this one point though, it is a great deal of hedonism that drives us I'm sure. Anyone who denies this is fooling themselves. However we beyond our personal reasons for wanting to go, I'm also quite sure that I, and the rest of us (at least most of us) have posterity in mind as well.
Although it is bound to be a lot of fun, and probably twice as much hardship.
Lastly, No, I will not relinquish my understanding that there is phenomenal potential for the advancement of society and quality of life for all people once things are in full swing on Mars. I'm not going to go into detail here, but maybe tomarrow or monday I will start a new thread where we can discuss this in a more relevant setting. (it is a very close proportion of science and society that makes me interested in Mars)

Your friendly neighborhood (one day literally) Martian...
-Matt

PS. BTW - Scott, write your novel, I'll buy it, just to see what its like {; )

Nirgal82 · 2002-09-21 23:46:16

WHOA!, my grammar went to hell for a sec there. heh heh

This originally appeared at the end of the 2nd paragraph and is better read like this:

However, I'm sure, that beyond our personal reasons, I'm quite sure that I, and the rest of us (at least most of us) have posterity in mind as well.

I usually let my grammar errors go, but this one might have had a hard time getting across what I was trying to say...otherwise, sorry for wasting space....
-Matt

Phobos · 2002-09-22 12:51:26

Stay here in the cradle till we outgrow it and watch it crumble to pieces around us?
I understand how you can perceive industry on Mars as nothing less than the rape of a pure world. However we must go somewhere, and I'm not so sure that Mars will be utterly destroyed as you describe.
I mean hey, I know Earth has seen more than its fair share of pollution and environmental destruction, but it is still the most beatiful and complex place there is, IMHO...

If we want to examine "environmental disasters" just look at what early life did to this planet! Earth itself is a terraformed planet since few lifeforms and absolutely no higher life forms would be able to exist on the Earth that hosted the first microbes. In my opinion it would be going against the nature of life for us to just sit on this planet until the sun or whatever else wipes us out when we have the technology to escape such a fate. I think Nova up there is a good example of the anti-human version of the environmentalist that would have no problem with the extinction of the human race. God knows I've had the mispleasure of meeting plenty of people like that.

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-22 14:41:02

One of the favourite arguments of those who seek to tie environmental concerns to terraforming is to say that it is better to go off to space and wreck a planet out there through the imperious search for resources than to do so on Earth, but it seems that those attitudes that promote the rationalism of rampant technocratic, nuclear-philic, capitalist, anti-social and anti-environmental industrialism in outer space are the same as those that promote it on Earth.

Nova:

Would you support the establishment of ecovillages on Mars?

See the Global Ecovillage Network (click here)

Scott

**********************

"The background or motivation for ecovillages is the need to reverse the gradual disintegration of supportive social/cultural structures and the upsurge of destructive environmental practices on our planet.

"Ecovillages are urban or rural communities of people, who strive to integrate a supportive social environment with a low-impact way of life. To achieve this, they integrate various aspects of ecological design, permaculture, ecological building, green production, alternative energy, community building practices, and much more.

"Ecovillages typically build on various combinations of three dimensions:

* Social/Community
* Ecological
* Cultural/Spiritual."

A.J.Armitage · 2002-09-22 18:58:49

Ecovillages? I suppose you'll have lots of diversity posters on all the walls.

clark · 2002-09-23 10:06:33

I suggest the idea of Destiny Hall is being misconstrued by many here.

The primary motivation for establishing "Destiny Hall" seems to be to establish a permanent system of support for the establishment of a colony on Mars. Nowhere have I seen anything within the suggestion for Destiny Hall that includes brainwashing, forced coerison, religion, or fanatisim.

Destiny Hall is merely a monument to an idea- a goal. From a sociological point of view, it is incredibly useful to bind individuals together, especially when joined by intangible ideals, by having them focus on tangible results.

Case in point: What raises the most excitment and awareness with Mars? Talking about it, or doing something towards that goal? Look at the possibility of somehting as simple as "First Words". Destiny Hall is no different in this regard.

Of course it sounds a bit off, becuase Destiny Hall is nothing more than a temple to a secular based goal. There are only hollow gods based on our science fiction fantasies, so we are repulsed at the possibility of help fostering a false religion. But that is an instinctual fear not founded on anything concrete.

Is the Statue of Liberty a temple? No, but is a physical symbol of an intangible idea. Mount Rushmore? Is that any different? No.

The beauty in Destiny Hall is it allows people a PLACE where they can focus their desires- a physical representation- a promise of a shared dream- no different than Graceland for some I am sure. Are parents wrong for teaching their children (think indoctirnation here) to like or appreciate Elvis for the same reasons they do?

My god, part of the Mars strategy is to educate (indoctrinate) the masses, especially the kids, as to the benefits of space colonization and mars colonization in particular.

If we called it "democracy hall" with the stated goal of establishing a democracy based on equality in a new land some day meet with such rejection?

I for one would buy a brick to build a temple to a shared belief. But then again, I'm not that enlightened.

Phobos · 2002-09-24 20:18:17

Recall Ayn Rand's statement, "If there are degrees of evil, it is hard to say who is the more contemptible: the brute who assumes the right to force the mind of others, or the moral degenerate who grants to others the right to force his mind." Of course, the latter portion of the quote would ::not:: be applicable to children, as they usually do not have the option of just walking away. I had to quote the entire sentence, considering how it starts out.

I agree 1000%. This is why I have such a hard time with the concept of the "philosopher king." I haven't read Voltair's take on the situation, but Plato basically believed the philosopher king had an inherent right to force his rule on the society at large since s/he was considered to know what is best for society even if the peons disagreed with it. Considering that Plato believed in the use of censorship and other shady uses of information to best inculcate the will of the state into the citizenry, I think he basically defended the notion that the enlightened rulers had a right to be beasts of sorts in that they deserved the power to ramrod their policies into effect. And I think anybody who would willingly give up their right to freely express their thought and political will to a "philosopher king" so s/he may do as they see fit is the worst kind of beast. Plato thought democracy was abhorent, even though he does give it a scant defense here and there for mere reasons of illustration. Well, I could go on and on but I'll shut up before the server runs out of space.

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-24 22:47:32

I agree 1000%...the philosopher king...the citizenry...enlightened rulers...beasts of sorts...

Phobos:

I cannot agree 1000% or disagree 1000%. When I envision Martian civilization I do not think in the terms that people use when they are describing state societies. I envision Martian civilization being composed of neo-tribal societies. Those neo-tribal societies would be something like, for example, the Ecovillage of Ithaca (an "intentional community" that is located near Ithaca, New York). That community does not have a philosopher king or a citizenry or enlightened rulers or beasts (unless you include their cows).

Scott

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-25 15:55:25

The primary motivation for establishing "Destiny Hall" seems to be to establish a permanent system of support for the establishment of a colony on Mars. Nowhere have I seen anything within the suggestion for Destiny Hall that includes brainwashing, forced coerison, religion, or fanatisim.

Clark:

You are correct. Destiny Hall is designed to provide a "system of support for the establishment of a colony on Mars." And, as you noted, I did not propose that Destiny Hall would be a place where brainwashing or any form of coercion would be practiced. However, I did include a bit of religion, and I did so with great trepidation.

The first draft of my Destiny Hall proposal included the proposition that parents would tell their children the myth that Mars had been imprinted on the child's GENES when the child was conceived on The Altar of Mars. In the final draft, I changed "genes" to "soul". I included the concept that each human is inhabited by a supernatural being (i.e., a soul) because that concept is found in almost all traditional cultures.

Scientists generally disapprove of the proposition that human behavior is controlled by a supernatural entity. When they are not in church, scientists subscribe to the proposition that the behavior of a complex organism (e.g, a horse, shark, eagle, chimpanzee, human, etc.) is a function of the organism's physiology, its history of reinforcement and punishment, and its current environment. This proposition is a scientific theory (see The Behavior of Organisms, by B. F. Skinner).

In designing Destiny Hall, I have tried to incorporate elements from many cultures. For example, fossilized hominid footprints from Tanzania, architecture from Italy, stone from Great Britain, history from Iceland. And, in my efforts to be inclusive, I included the concept of the soul. But that may have been a mistake. Including that supernatural concept has caused several people to see Destiny Hall as the temple of a religious cult, which I certainly did not intend.

I have thought about changing "soul" back to "genes" but that may not be necessary because scientists have recently begun to put a physiological foundation under the soul. A recent article in the journal Nature describes how Olaf Blanke, a neurologist, found that he could trigger out-of-body experiences in one of his patients. He was using electrodes to stimulate and map the patient's brain in preparation for surgery. We can now see that out-of-body experiences, which have given rise to the concept of the soul, are the result of the functioning (or malfunctioning) of particular clusters of brain cells. So the supernaturalism that was once included in the concept of the soul has now been replaced by a better scientific understanding of how the human brain works.

What do you think? Should I change "soul" to "genes" or leave it as it is?

Scott

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