Destiny Hall - Keeping the Mars Movement alive

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-06 18:38:27

Mr. Patrick Banks is a founding member of the Mars Society. He attended the fifth annual Mars Society Convention in August 2002 and he subsequently wrote a report titled "Reflections on the Mars Society After the Fifth Convention." In that report, Mr. Banks wrote that the Society's President, Robert Zubrin, compared the task of colonizing Mars to the construction of a cathedral. President Zubrin noted that in Medieval times the construction of a cathedral could take hundreds of years. This required that the skills necessary to construct cathedrals had to be passed down from one generation of stone masons the next.

Recognizing that the task of colonizing Mars is likely to take hundreds of years, we might wonder whether the Mars Society can create the kind of dedication to this goal that is able to survive from one generation to the next. Will the current members of the Mars Society be able to pass their dedication to the cause of Mars on to their children? One way to produce that kind of inter-generational dedication is to build a cathedral. The cathedral could be a place where would-be Martians are made and where their cremated remains are stored until such time as their descendants can take those remains to Mars.

The cathedral could be known as Destiny Hall. It's form could be based on the Pantheon, the greatest of all Roman temples, which was designed to enclose a perfect sphere. The Jefferson Memorial in Washington, D.C., is based on the design of the Pantheon. And Thomas Jefferson used the Pantheon as a model for the design of his home, which he named Monticello.

Destiny Hall would contain The Great Globe of Mars and the Altar of Mars. The Great Globe would be two meters in diameter, hollow, made of steel-reinforced concrete, and covered with a painted-on image of Mars. It would have a locking access port on its top. Any person who was a life-long member of the Mars Society would be eligible to have one cubic centimeter of his or her cremated remains put into the Great Globe. The General Assembly of the Mars Society might resolve that, in the case of a person who had made outstanding contributions to the cause of Mars, two or three cubic centimeters of that person's remains may be placed into the Great Globe. The ashes in the Great Globe would one day be taken to Mars. Then, just before the start of the season when the Martian Wind produces dust storms that circle the entire planet, the ashes will be put onto a large, flat circular stone which has a surface that has been polished to a mirror finish. The Wind will take the ashes to their final destiny.

The Pantheon has many alcoves but Destiny Hall would have only one alcove. The Altar of Mars would be located in that one alcove. The Altar would have the form of a small table with four legs. A gentleman would bring his bride to the Altar. She would place her elbows onto the Altar, oriented in such a way that she is looking directly forward at the Great Globe. Her husband would then lift up the back of her wedding dress and copulate her. He would also be looking directly forward at the Great Globe. They would tell their first child that he or she had been conceived on the Altar of Mars and that, because they were both looking at the Great Globe, the image of the Great Globe had been imprinted on the child's soul. They would tell their child that Mars is his or her destiny. Children will believe this story when they are four years old and, by the time they are six, they will understand that this story is a myth, the kind of myth that all cathedrals are built on. These children will grow up to be dedicated members of the Mars Society and they will one day take their parents' ashes Mars, and to the Martian Wind.

Scott G. Beach

Shaun Barrett · 2002-09-06 20:19:39

HEAVY STUFF, man!!
That's not naturally grown material you're smoking, Scott! That's some kind of hydroponic sh*t!
For God's sake, lighten up before they close down this website and take us all away for questioning.

Phobos · 2002-09-06 20:29:50

Interesting ideas. I'm not sure though that building such a structure would be needed to motivate future generations to create a Martian civilization. It's probably safe to assume that there will always be people in succeeding generations that will find Mars an enticing and challenging target for the expansion of the human race or for their own benefit. I think once we develop cheap enough space access technology like space elevators it'll only be a matter time before we get people migrating out into space.

Adrian · 2002-09-07 03:59:40

If I ever have children, despite being one of the more active Mars advocates, I would have absolutely no intention of presssing my interest in Mars on them. They can make their minds up on their own, just like I mine up.

Josh Cryer · 2002-09-08 00:38:20

Even if you have them on Mars, Adrian?

I think that colonizing Mars won't take hundreds of years once the infrastructure is in place (and it won't happen until it is, for the most part)... but I see no reason why the Mars Society couldn't have a Destiny Hall of sorts, especially if the Mars Society is the most successful Mars colonization effort.

Just don't assume that the Mars Society will be the only group to colonize Mars. I think a less exclusive kind of commemorative building would be more appropriate for all Martians (not just those in the Mars Society), one where ?Martian Firsts? are collected and displayed for all. For insance, images of the first dome, and genealogical information of those involved in its deployment. The first objects built solely with Martian resources (say, a wheel or gear made from Martian iron or titanium). Perhaps, even, information about the first Martian children. I think this building should be built atop the first colony, unless it's still in use, of course.

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-08 18:05:50

...I see no reason why the Mars Society couldn't have a Destiny Hall of sorts, especially if the Mars Society is the most successful Mars colonization effort... I think this building should be built atop the first colony, unless it's still in use, of course.

Josh:

I envision Destiny Hall as being situated in the center of a prototype Martian settlement. The people who live in the settlement would be preparing themselves to go to Mars and/or preparing their children to go to Mars. My first choice for the location of the prototype settlement would be in the Frazer Valley, east of Vancouver, British Columbia.

Scott

turbo · 2002-09-08 19:22:21

Frazer Valley?
I would think somewhere around the "Four Corners" area. More open space.

Just thinking,

turbo

Palomar · 2002-09-09 15:01:10

The Pantheon has many alcoves but Destiny Hall would have only one alcove. The Altar of Mars would be located in that one alcove. The Altar would have the form of a small table with four legs. A gentleman would bring his bride to the Altar. She would place her elbows onto the Altar, oriented in such a way that she is looking directly forward at the Great Globe. Her husband would then lift up the back of her wedding dress and copulate her. He would also be looking directly forward at the Great Globe. They would tell their first child that he or she had been conceived on the Altar of Mars and that, because they were both looking at the Great Globe, the image of the Great Globe had been imprinted on the child's soul. They would tell their child that Mars is his or her destiny. Children will believe this story when they are four years old and, by the time they are six, they will understand that this story is a myth, the kind of myth that all cathedrals are built on. These children will grow up to be dedicated members of the Mars Society and they will one day take their parents' ashes Mars, and to the Martian Wind.
Scott G. Beach

*I don't mean to sound rude, but this sounds too cultish for my taste.

Consummating marriage on the wedding night shouldn't, IMO, be a "duty" to the Mars Society, Mars, or anything else; it should only be about the two people who have made a committment to each other. They should be enjoying their honeymoon night with only mutual pleasure and enjoyment in their minds, and nothing else. And, of course, this is all presuming Marsians will have wedding customs/practices similar to those in the West...which most humans do not have. It also excludes couples who do not wish to be married, but would rather cohabitate.

I'd like to think Marsian children will have a sense of destiny regarding Mars outside of knowing they were born there. I wasn't born on Mars [obviously], and I have a sense of human destiny for the place.

--Cindy

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-09 17:24:43

Cindy:

At some point in the future, the Mars Society will build a prototype Martian settlement. In other words, the Mars Society will build a human sociocultural system that can be transplanted into the ecosystem of Mars. The design specifications of that system will include rites of passage (rituals performed at birth, puberty, marriage, and death) and rites of intensification (rituals that reinforce a shared sense of community and destiny).

I designed Destiny Hall to be one of the components of a prototype Martian settlement. Destiny Hall provides a location for the performance of marriage and death rites. It might also provide a location for the performance of birth rites.

Did you see the television series "Roots." In that series, the leading character, who was named Kunta Kinte, took his newborn daughter to the top of a hill on a cloudless night. Using both hands, Kunta held his daughter up above his head and said, "Behold the only thing greater than yourself." According to the traditions of his tribe, Kunta had an obligation to perform this ritual. But this was not just an obligation, it was a joy. This ritual was very important to him.

Destiny Hall could be used in a similar way. Parents could bring their newborn child to the hall and sit him or her on the Altar of Mars. They could each hold one of the child's hands and simultaneously say, "Behold your destiny." And then grandma snaps a picture, which is uploaded the Mars Society's web site for all would-be Martians to see.

In summary, a complete culture provides its members with a sense of connectedness, a sense of community, and a sense of shared destiny. I believe that having rituals which cultivate these intangibles will be crucial to the success of a prototype Martian settlement. More than two millennia ago, a wise man wrote, "where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs, chapter 29, paragraph 18). I wish this guy were with us today because he would be a great sociocultural systems engineer.

I strongly disagree that newlyweds "should be enjoying their honeymoon night with only mutual pleasure and enjoyment in their minds, and nothing else." Children should be taught from an early age (before their hormones start pumping in full force) that marriage is a means of conceiving children and providing an environment where children can grow up to be happy, productive adults. If people go into a marriage "with only mutual pleasure and enjoyment in their minds" then there will be a high divorce rate and many tears and way to many children who have serious psychological problems. Those children will be much more likely to be in jail than to be leading a mission to explore and settle Mars.

Scott

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-09 20:14:37

Frazer Valley? I would think somewhere around the "Four Corners" area. More open space.

Turbo:

You are probably right about there being more suitable agricultural land available in the Four Corners area. However, I believe that it would be best to choose a location that is outside of the United States. The Mars Society should try to make Martian colonization an international effort.

Scott

RobS · 2002-09-09 22:58:04

"At some point in the future, the Mars Society will build a prototype Martian settlement."

Actually, I rather doubt the Mars Society will do this. It seems to me the strategy is to go from habs to the translife experiment, then to a larger space-oriented project to demonstrate the Society's financial responsibility and scientific capabilities. A "prototype Mars settlement" would involve the Society in all the negative publicity that Biosphere 2 got: that its science is poorly thought through, its goals are driven by "dreams" and "emotion" rather than by reason, etc.

No one can predict the social structure that might arise on Mars through a small prototype here on Earth. An attempt will drive away many sober-minded people and it could look premature. The best "settlement" to aim for is the one on Mars.

-- RobS

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-10 00:54:52

Rob:

In the first message under the topic CLARKEVILLE (in the Civilization and Culture section of this forum) I reported that, "During the Steering Committee meeting of August 10, 2002, Bruce McKenzie proposed that the Mars Society construct a prototype Martian settlement in order 'to publicly demonstrate the feasibility of living beyond the Earth and its advantages to everyone'."

In "Design Principles for Extraterrestrial Communities," Magoroh Maruyama wrote, "In the sociocultural design of extraterrestrial communities, we do not know definitely whether an idea will work or not until we have tried it out... All we can do is to keep our minds open and to keep on experimenting." I agree with Maruyama and I believe that we will build several experimental prototype Martian settlements before we start shipping settlers to Mars.

Designs for prototype Martian settlements do not have to be based on "dreams" and "emotions." But we do have to recognize that human beings have a set of emotions hard-wired into their genes and that emotions must be taken into account when designing a human sociocultural system.

Scott

Palomar · 2002-09-10 08:31:19

Cindy:

At some point in the future, the Mars Society will build a prototype Martian settlement. In other words, the Mars Society will build a human sociocultural system that can be transplanted into the ecosystem of Mars.

*Fine.

The design specifications of that system will include rites of passage (rituals performed at birth, puberty, marriage, and death) and rites of intensification (rituals that reinforce a shared sense of community and destiny).

*I'd like for you to refer me to documents generated by the Mars Society itself [official] which states that rituals and rites will be performed in the manner in which you speak, and that this isn't simply a desire on the part of yourself and/or a small group of persons within the Mars Society.

Scott: I strongly disagree that newlyweds "should be enjoying their honeymoon night with only mutual pleasure and enjoyment in their minds, and nothing else."

*Oh, so they should devote their honeymoon night to the Mars Society?

Scott: Children should be taught from an early age (before their hormones start pumping in full force) that marriage is a means of conceiving children and providing an environment where children can grow up to be happy, productive adults.

*Fine. But what's that got to do with the honeymoon night?

Scott: If people go into a marriage "with only mutual pleasure and enjoyment in their minds" then there will be a high divorce rate and many tears and way to many children who have serious psychological problems. Those children will be much more likely to be in jail than to be leading a mission to explore and settle Mars.

*You misunderstood/misread my post. I said the HONEYMOON NIGHT should be about mutual pleasure and enjoyment -- one night. I've been married nearly 10 years; I am a bit too experienced in the Marriage Department [and a bit too intelligent] to suggest that marriage could be "only mutual pleasure and enjoyment" - !!! :angry:

Again: I want to see *official* documents generated by the Mars Society that the rituals and rites you speak of are officially promoted by the Mars Society. Please refer me to a web link or an on-line article to this effect, i.e. an official document.

In reading your original post on the matter, it seems to me that Robert Zubrin was speaking by way of ANALOGY, and you and Mr. Banks have mistaken an ANALOGY for some sort of definitive plan. Let's see the official documents on the matter -- from the desk of Zubrin and/or the Steering Committee.

--Cindy

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-10 15:45:07

Cindy:

In a previous message, I predicted that, "At some point in the future, the Mars Society will build a prototype Martian settlement. In other words, the Mars Society will build a human sociocultural system that can be transplanted into the ecosystem of Mars." You responded "Fine" and I have interpreted your response as an acceptance of my prediction.

I have also predicted that, "The design specifications of that system will include rites of passage (rituals performed at birth, puberty, marriage, and death) and rites of intensification (rituals that reinforce a shared sense of community and destiny)." You responded to this prediction with the following statement: "I'd like for you to refer me to documents generated by the Mars Society itself [official] which states that rituals and rites will be performed in the manner in which you speak, and that this isn't simply a desire on the part of yourself and/or a small group of persons within the Mars Society."

Cindy, I have suggested birth, marriage and death rites that would be performed in a prototype Martian settlement on Earth and that would be connected to a final rite to be performed on Mars; i.e., giving the ashes of the Ancestors to the Martian Wind. I believe that this is consistent with the purpose of the Mars Society's Civilization and Culture Forum. The Mars Society describes this Forum as follows: "Discussion on the social, cultural and anthropological aspects of human missions and colonies on Mars". I hope that you and other people will, in this Forum, suggest alternatives rites that might be more satisfying to the participants. I believe that sociocultural design should be a collaborative process.

Cindy, I wrote that, "If people go into a marriage 'with only mutual pleasure and enjoyment in their minds' then there will be a high divorce rate and many tears and way to many children who have serious psychological problems. Those children will be much more likely to be in jail than to be leading a mission to explore and settle Mars." And you responded, "You misunderstood/misread my post. I said the HONEYMOON NIGHT should be about mutual pleasure and enjoyment -- one night. I've been married nearly 10 years; I am a bit too experienced in the Marriage Department [and a bit too intelligent] to suggest that marriage could be 'only mutual pleasure and enjoyment' - !!!".

I disagree with your assertion that "the HONEYMOON NIGHT should be about mutual pleasure and enjoyment." As an alternative, I suggest that, as a matter of Martian tradition, a couple's wedding should be scheduled on the day during the bride's menstrual cycle when she is most likely to become pregnant. Sexologists have discovered that a woman is most likely to become pregnant if she has an orgasm shortly after her partner reaches orgasm and ejaculates. The leading theory to explain this fact is that during a woman's orgasm she experiences rhythmic contractions in her reproductive tract and that those contractions pump semen into her uterus and thereby increase the probability of conception. Based on this theory, it might be part of Martian tradition for the bride's mother to give the groom an electric vibrator, batteries included, as a wedding gift so that he can apply it to his bride's vulva in order to insure that she will have an orgasm at the "appropriate" time.

Cindy, you wrote, "Again: I want to see *official* documents generated by the Mars Society that the rituals and rites you speak of are officially promoted by the Mars Society. Please refer me to a web link or an on-line article to this effect, i.e. an official document." Cindy, I have made it clear that the rites I have written about in this Forum are my suggestions. I have NOT asserted that the Mars Society has adopted a "Prototype Martian Settlement Design and Development Plan," or any similarly titled document, that includes any particular rituals. I have made numerous predictions and suggestions and you can offer alternative predictions and suggestions. That I what this Forum is for.

Cindy, you wrote, "In reading your original post on the matter, it seems to me that Robert Zubrin was speaking by way of ANALOGY, and you and Mr. Banks have mistaken an ANALOGY for some sort of definitive plan. Let's see the official documents on the matter -- from the desk of Zubrin and/or the Steering Committee."

Cindy, the Steering Committee's minutes of August 10, 2002 contain the following: "Bruce Mackenzie presented a new project idea: The Analog Settlement to publicly demonstrate the feasibility of living beyond the Earth and its advantages to everyone." I do not know whether Mr. Mackenzie's "new project idea" was greeted with (1) a standing ovation or (2) a "Ho Hum. I suppose that we will have to pay attention to the 'human factors' eventually" or (3) something like "Well that's the dumbest idea I have ever heard". If the vagueness of these minutes bothers you then you might suggest that in the future the secretary draft minutes that specify how a "new project idea" was received.

Scott

Shaun Barrett · 2002-09-10 18:53:53

Scott, I can't believe you're serious about all this!

There's a surreal atmosphere to what you're describing here with all this socially-structured breeding-in-public stuff.
Forgive the analogy, but when I read your contributions in this topic, I can't get the image of Heinrich Himmler out of my head. There was a similar feel to his 'Lebensborn' breeding program to create a so-called 'super-race'. In that nightmarish episode in history, women were treated pretty much like cattle and placed in breeding farms.
I recognise that (at least so far) you haven't advocated selective breeding. But the rest of your suggestions are just as effective at dehumanising the relationship between men and women as anything the Nazis managed to invent.
???

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-10 20:28:20

Shaun:

I should have specified that, in my vision, Destiny Hall will have a set of bronze doors that can be latched from the inside. If a couple chose to consummate their marriage in Destiny Hall, they would therefore be able to do so in private.

You have brought up the topic of "breeding-in-public." That raises the question of whether a couple may invite members of the wedding party to Destiny Hall to witness the newlyweds consummate their marriage. Should this be illegal?

In the days when Kings ruled, the King might copulate his bride in front of the wedding party. This "breeding-in-public" had a very serious purpose. People wanted to be certain that the children born to the Queen were rightful heirs to the throne. If there was doubt, the succession of a prince or princess to the throne could be contested. This could involve civil war and the consequent death of thousands of people.

Shaun: you wrote, "I recognize that (at least so far) you haven't advocated selective breeding. But the rest of your suggestions are just as effective at dehumanising the relationship between men and women as anything the Nazis managed to invent." I do not intend to advocate selective breeding. I believe that selective breeding will soon become obsolete. We are on the verge of taking control of our genome; we will soon be able to re-engineer ourselves from the genes up. When we have that power, we might choose to eliminate the Human Endogenous Retrovirus from our genome. We each have 30 to 50 copies of that retrovirus spliced into our genes. People who have schizophrenia are much more likely to have antibodies to the virus, which has led some researchers to suggest that schizophrenics have a genetic defect that makes it difficult for them to keep the virus in a dormant state. I believe that it would be wonderful if we could eliminate this terrible disease and perhaps even cure it in people who are currently afflicted.

And we might be able to figure out how bears can hibernate all winter without having their bones deteriorate. If we learned this secret, we might genetically engineer ourselves so that we do not lose bone mass while we are in low-gravity environments. Otherwise, emigrating to Luna or Mars might be a one way trip.

I do not understand why you regard my suggestions as "dehumanizing the relationship between men and women." I am proposing that marriage be viewed primarily as a means of procreation rather than as a license to have fun. I believe that the divorce rate would be much lower if couples focused more on the needs of their children and less on whether they were getting good sex from their spouse. You can label my belief as "dehumanizing" if you want to but I will continue to maintain that it is good social policy.

Scott

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-11 03:10:06

Forgive the analogy, but when I read your contributions in this topic, I can't get the image of Heinrich Himmler out of my head. There was a similar feel to his 'Lebensborn' breeding program to create a so-called 'super-race'. In that nightmarish episode in history, women were treated pretty much like cattle and placed in breeding farms.

Shaun:

I was not familiar with the Lebesborn Project, which you cited in your previous message. Now that I have read descriptions of that project, I am wondering what you think it has to do with a discussion of marriage rites. The men and women who participated in the Lebensborn Project were not engaged to be married to each other and did not marry each other. The children who were born in the course of the Lebesborn Project were born outside of wedlock and I certainly do not approve of that. And what was even worse, the fathers of those children did not live with and help the mother to raise their children. This is a completely irresponsible abdication of a father's duty.

What does all of this Nazi crap have to do with a discussion of marriage rites?

Scott

Shaun Barrett · 2002-09-11 06:00:50

If you look into the tenure of Heinrich Himmler as Reichsfuhrer SS in the Nazi regime, you learn he had an obsessive interest in rituals.
There was a building like a castle with a stone room, in which the hierarchy of the SS would meet to discuss the mystical nature of "Blood and Honour" and devotion to the ideals of the National Socialist state. Runic symbols out of an idealised teutonic history played a part in a cult-like atmosphere reminiscent of ancient pagan religions.
Himmler and company were also very much involved in producing future generations with the same devotion to the National Socialist ideals. They mixed all this with a liberal dose of eugenics, of course, and put the whole scheme into operation with the "Lebensborn" project.
Your highly stylised ritual inseminations in a building modelled on that of an ancient pantheistic, pagan religion, with an emphasis on the continuation through the generations of devotion to an ideal, just happened to put me in mind of Heinrich Himmler.
I think you'll have to agree, the parallels are obvious.
But I concede that there are also differences, and I made a point of saying so in my last post.
In retrospect, I should have qualified my comments about 'dehumanising the relationship between men and women' by saying that it was merely my opinion. Again I concede that others may not find it so.
I also hasten to add that I do not compare you with the evil Himmler, but I still think of him when I think of the ceremonial scene you describe. I just can't help it!

Palomar · 2002-09-11 08:18:51

Cindy:
In a previous message, I predicted that, "At some point in the future, the Mars Society will build a prototype Martian settlement. In other words, the Mars Society will build a human sociocultural system that can be transplanted into the ecosystem of Mars." You responded "Fine" and I have interpreted your response as an acceptance of my prediction.
I have also predicted that, "The design specifications of that system will include rites of passage (rituals performed at birth, puberty, marriage, and death) and rites of intensification (rituals that reinforce a shared sense of community and destiny)." You responded to this prediction with the following statement: "I'd like for you to refer me to documents generated by the Mars Society itself [official] which states that rituals and rites will be performed in the manner in which you speak, and that this isn't simply a desire on the part of yourself and/or a small group of persons within the Mars Society."
Cindy, I have suggested birth, marriage and death rites that would be performed in a prototype Martian settlement on Earth and that would be connected to a final rite to be performed on Mars; i.e., giving the ashes of the Ancestors to the Martian Wind. I believe that this is consistent with the purpose of the Mars Society's Civilization and Culture Forum. The Mars Society describes this Forum as follows: "Discussion on the social, cultural and anthropological aspects of human missions and colonies on Mars". I hope that you and other people will, in this Forum, suggest alternatives rites that might be more satisfying to the participants. I believe that sociocultural design should be a collaborative process.
Cindy, I wrote that, "If people go into a marriage 'with only mutual pleasure and enjoyment in their minds' then there will be a high divorce rate and many tears and way to many children who have serious psychological problems. Those children will be much more likely to be in jail than to be leading a mission to explore and settle Mars." And you responded, "You misunderstood/misread my post. I said the HONEYMOON NIGHT should be about mutual pleasure and enjoyment -- one night. I've been married nearly 10 years; I am a bit too experienced in the Marriage Department [and a bit too intelligent] to suggest that marriage could be 'only mutual pleasure and enjoyment' - !!!".
I disagree with your assertion that "the HONEYMOON NIGHT should be about mutual pleasure and enjoyment." As an alternative, I suggest that, as a matter of Martian tradition, a couple's wedding should be scheduled on the day during the bride's menstrual cycle when she is most likely to become pregnant. Sexologists have discovered that a woman is most likely to become pregnant if she has an orgasm shortly after her partner reaches orgasm and ejaculates. The leading theory to explain this fact is that during a woman's orgasm she experiences rhythmic contractions in her reproductive tract and that those contractions pump semen into her uterus and thereby increase the probability of conception. Based on this theory, it might be part of Martian tradition for the bride's mother to give the groom an electric vibrator, batteries included, as a wedding gift so that he can apply it to his bride's vulva in order to insure that she will have an orgasm at the "appropriate" time.
Cindy, you wrote, "Again: I want to see *official* documents generated by the Mars Society that the rituals and rites you speak of are officially promoted by the Mars Society. Please refer me to a web link or an on-line article to this effect, i.e. an official document." Cindy, I have made it clear that the rites I have written about in this Forum are my suggestions. I have NOT asserted that the Mars Society has adopted a "Prototype Martian Settlement Design and Development Plan," or any similarly titled document, that includes any particular rituals. I have made numerous predictions and suggestions and you can offer alternative predictions and suggestions. That I what this Forum is for.
Cindy, you wrote, "In reading your original post on the matter, it seems to me that Robert Zubrin was speaking by way of ANALOGY, and you and Mr. Banks have mistaken an ANALOGY for some sort of definitive plan. Let's see the official documents on the matter -- from the desk of Zubrin and/or the Steering Committee."
Cindy, the Steering Committee's minutes of August 10, 2002 contain the following: "Bruce Mackenzie presented a new project idea: The Analog Settlement to publicly demonstrate the feasibility of living beyond the Earth and its advantages to everyone." I do not know whether Mr. Mackenzie's "new project idea" was greeted with (1) a standing ovation or (2) a "Ho Hum. I suppose that we will have to pay attention to the 'human factors' eventually" or (3) something like "Well that's the dumbest idea I have ever heard". If the vagueness of these minutes bothers you then you might suggest that in the future the secretary draft minutes that specify how a "new project idea" was received.
Scott

*Well, Mr. Beach, you and others are certainly entitled to your opinions, wishes, etc. Frankly, I think what you are describing/discussing smacks of some Woo-Woo Mystical Group-Think anti-individualist experiment [my opinion, my entitlement to it] ala Jim Jones and the People's Temple.

If the Mars Society were to ever *officially* veer in the direction you are describing/promoting, I'll be the first to rip my membership card up into tiny pieces and never contribute another red penny to the Mars Society.

As Adrian said: "If I ever have children, despite being one of the more active Mars advocates, I would have absolutely no intention of presssing my interest in Mars on them. They can make their minds up on their own, just like I mine up."

I wouldn't want to live in a society where the individual is subject to intense and deliberate mental stimulation in one direction or another. You may think what you're proposing is a cool idea, and perhaps you think your intentions in this direction are good. However, Shaun is right to point out how obsessed Himmler was in rituals, and frankly your good intentions would doubtless lead to some quasi-mystical, intolerant totalitarian-type nightmare scenario. Read _The True Believer_ by Eric Hoffer. Read _Animal Farm_ by George Orwell.

Perhaps you yearn for/need the warm crush of the herd around you. IMO, if the Marsian settlers/colonists are totally devoid of any sense of individualism, the future prospects of humans on Mars is dismal.

And when you ask Shaun what marriage rites [as you describe them] have to do "with this Nazi crap", I'll tell you what it has to do with this "Nazi crap": You're wanting even the most intimate details of people's lives to be orchestrated according to specific external demands. That's what the Nazis did; that's what every anti-individualist pro-totalitarian regime has ever done. The Nazis also relied heavily on rituals and public demonstration as part of their indoctrination/socialization process. But hey, don't take my word for it, or Shaun's: Break out the history books, the biographical and autobiographical books of the persons involved in Naziism, watch documentaries about the Nazi movement, etc. The parallels between what you're describing/promoting and Naziism ARE THERE.

I've said all I feel I need to say on this topic.

--Cindy

"Those who fail to learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them."

Bill White · 2002-09-11 09:48:38

My 2 cents:

Why should we go and invent a new religion from scratch when we have plenty of perfectly good used ones lying about just about everywhere?

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-11 16:30:30

Why should we go and invent a new religion from scratch when we have plenty of perfectly good used ones lying about just about everywhere?

Bill:

This is a good question. I do not want to create a new religion. I am trying to design a set of rituals that include parts and pieces of many other cultures. I based the design of Destiny Hall on the Pantheon primarily because that design was built to enclose a perfect sphere and Destiny Hall would have a sphere in its center; i.e., the Great Globe of Mars. I did not choose the Pantheon because of its religious significance. The birth rite that I suggested is based on an African birth rite. I wish that I knew more about Asian cultures because I would like to incorporate parts of Asian rituals into my suggestions.

I believe that the exploration and settlement of Mars should be an enterprise that people from many nations can participate in. I would like to be able to show people around the world that parts of their traditions have been incorporated into the design for a sociocultural system that can be transplanted to Mars (I use the term "prototype Martian settlement" to refer to such a system).

I am not trying to design a society that I would want to live in. In general, the job of a sociocultural designer is to design a sociocultural system that is stable, resilient, and well adapted to a particular ecosystem. In this instance, I am trying to design a sociocultural system that is able to maintain and replicate itself on Mars.

Scott

Scott G. Beach · 2002-09-11 18:53:19

Cindy, you wrote, "I wouldn't want to live in a society where the individual is subject to intense and deliberate mental stimulation in one direction or another." I do not know where you went to school but I went to public schools in California, where I was subjected to intense and deliberate mental stimulation. I was taught, at public expense, to ritualistically pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. I did this thousands of times, with my right hand over my heart and facing Old Glory. I pledged allegiance in synchrony with dozens of other people. I did not have the option of doing otherwise. Children in Nazi Germany engaged in similar, state-sponsored rituals. But that is not unusual; all nation states sponsor such rituals.

Recently, a man in California challenged the constitutionality of the Pledge of Allegiance because the law that specifies the wording of the Pledge had been amended to include the words "under god". As a result of his exercising his constitutional right to bring this legal action, he received numerous death threats. A citizen of Nazi Germany would have been treated in a similar manner if he had challenged the validity of state-sponsored national rituals.

You wrote, "The parallels between what you're describing/promoting and Naziism ARE THERE." Cindy, the parallels between Naziism and the United States of America ARE THERE. So what? Rituals, including nationalistic rituals, are common in societies all over this planet.

You should try to get some perspective on your own society. Take off your blinders; take an anthropology class. Read "Our Kind: Who We Are, Where We Came From, and Where We Are Going," by Marvin Harris (an ecological anthropologist). Harris will help you to see "beyond the smoke of your own chimney."

Cindy, you wrote, "If the Mars Society were to ever *officially* veer in the direction you are describing/promoting, I'll be the first to rip my membership card up into tiny pieces and never contribute another red penny to the Mars Society." Please take a close look at your Mars Society membership card. It does NOT read, "This is to certify that Cindy is a voting member of the Mars Society." You are not allowed to participate in the election of the members of the Board of Directors of the Mars Society; the Board is a self-perpetuating autocracy. In your view, is the Mars Society's management more like (1) Germany's Third Reich or (2) the U.S. Congress? My point is, you can find parallels to Naziism everywhere if you want to, and then you can use those parallels to attack anything that you disagree with IF YOU WANT TO.

And please take notice of the fact that Mars has an extremely thin, unbreathable atmosphere. This fact dictated that there will be more collectivism on Mars than there is on Earth. The first Martian colonists will live in underground bunkers made of metal and fused regolith and many of the services that their lives depend on (air, water, sewer, electricity, etc.) will be collectively owned and managed. If that level of collectivism is politically unacceptable to you then you should reconsider your participation in the Mars Society.

Scott

A.J.Armitage · 2002-09-11 22:50:07

A gentleman would bring his bride to the Altar. She would place her elbows onto the Altar, oriented in such a way that she is looking directly forward at the Great Globe. Her husband would then lift up the back of her wedding dress and copulate her.

This is the first time in a long time I actually burst out laughing from reading something someone wrote. On a day like today, any laughter is at a premium, so thank you.

You, clark... As much as I want to see human settlement of Mars, some of the enthusiasts are pretty weird.

A.J.Armitage · 2002-09-11 22:51:54

It says 12 above, but it's (just barely) still the 11th where I am.

Palomar · 2002-09-12 10:00:22

And please take notice of the fact that Mars has an extremely thin, unbreathable atmosphere. This fact dictated that there will be more collectivism on Mars than there is on Earth. The first Martian colonists will live in underground bunkers made of metal and fused regolith and many of the services that their lives depend on (air, water, sewer, electricity, etc.) will be collectively owned and managed. If that level of collectivism is politically unacceptable to you then you should reconsider your participation in the Mars Society.
Scott

*Your haughty, arrogant, deluded attitude is noted. I already know about the thin, unbreathable atmosphere of Mars, among other things. Don't talk down to me.

Who says the Mars Society promotes collectivism? You? Who the hell are you? Who says YOUR vision of what Mars settlement/colonization is what will or should be?

"Please take a close look at your Mars Society membership card. It does NOT read, 'This is to certify that Cindy is a voting member of the Mars Society.'"

:::polite applause::: Thanks for pointing that out, Sherlock. I already knew that.

"Cindy, the parallels between Naziism and the United States of America ARE THERE. So what? Rituals, including nationalistic rituals, are common in societies all over this planet. You should try to get some perspective on your own society. Take off your blinders; take an anthropology class. Read "Our Kind: Who We Are, Where We Came From, and Where We Are Going," by Marvin Harris (an ecological anthropologist). Harris will help you to see "beyond the smoke of your own chimney."

:::More polite applause::: You make these statements while, at the same time, PROMOTING further control and more rituals in an enclosed society AND after asking Shaun what your marriage rites "have to do with that Nazi crap". You're the one who needs to take off your blinders. Can you see the contradictions in your "argument"? I doubt it; irrationality seldom does. You refer to Naziism's rituals and ideals as "crap" [which they were], and then turn around and promote Nazi-like rituals and ideals. **Duh!** Oh, and "kudos" on your lame attempts at parrotting my sentiments, in order to better help along your "argument" [but then, your argument needs all the help it can get, so have at it baby!].

"If that level of collectivism is politically unacceptable to you then you should reconsider your participation in the Mars Society."

Hey Scott, you know what you can do with your smug, condescending attitude?

Who says the settlers/colonists on Mars will be collectivist? You? Who the hell are you again? I won't reconsider my membership with the Mars Society based on YOUR silly collectivist notions of what Mars should be like, or how you wish it to be. No, that'll only be when and if the Mars Society itself [and you are NOT its representative nor its mouthpiece] should ever veer in the crackpot, totalitarian direction you're advocating.

--Cindy

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