Education

Calliban · 2023-08-23 22:26:58

Comment from Our Finite World thread.

***********************************************
Nearly all ethnic groups in Britain do better at school than white British. They are about 38% of schoolkids now, and it is good to see them doing well. EU kids in Britain do about the same as white British.

See the results table as an image: https://i0.wp.com/revisesociology.com/w … vement.png

Average Attainment 8 score (out of 90.0) by ethnicity

All 50.9
Asian 55.8
Bangladeshi 55.6
Indian 62.0
Pakistani 50.5
Asian other 58.6
Black 50.0
Black African 52.2
Black Caribbean 44.0
Black other 48.3
Chinese 69.2
Mixed 51.3
Mixed White/Asian 56.2
Mixed White/Black African 50.6
Mixed White/Black Caribbean 45.0
Mixed other 53.0
White 50.2
White British 50.2
White Irish 55.7
Gypsy/Roma 22.7
Irish Traveller 30.7
White other 52.1
Other 51.7
Unknown 45.1

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.ser … -ethnicity
***************************************

The secondary school I went to in the 1990s was a Comprehensive and close to 100% white, mostly working class. There was a clear division of attitude between the middle and working class students. Most of the working class students had a poor work ethic. They did not seem to plan for the future and most made no effort with school work at all. There was a deep cultural attitude against academic achievement and students that did well were ostracised. The prevailing attitude was that it was ‘cool to know nothing’ and make no visible effort at all.

Looking back at my school days now, I find it nothing short of miraculous that I managed to complete A-Levels and go on to take an engineering degree at a good university. That set me apart from most other working class students. Looking back at the situation, I do wonder what could have been done to help my classmates. They were by no means stupid. They just weren’t at all interested in learning. For some reason, they either didn’t consider the education offered to them to be relevant or didn’t plan for the future.

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-24 06:23:33

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time:

Index:
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 17#p232417
Information about the educational offerings of the University of Colorado

***
Original content below:

For Calliban re new topic...

Best wishes for success with this important new topic.

It is of universal importance. When communities set up shop on Mars, there won't be the luxury of unproductive community members.

It seems possible to me that the quality of teaching may be a factor to be considered, as this topic develops.

Specifically, given the attitude described by Calliban in Post #1, can a student who lacks a desire to learn achieve at a higher level with the right teacher?

Even more specifically .... Philip of Macedon arranged for his son Alexander to receive tutoring by Aristotle, who is associated with Plato and Socrates.

If every student had a tutor of that magnitude, would their performance improve? I don't know, but sure would like to see what might have been learned by humans on this important subject over the millennia.

Alexander the Great and Aristotle: A Philosophical Teacher
totallyhistory.com › alexander-the-great-and-aristotle
Aristotle had written two books on both subjects, and his ideas must have fueled Alexander's decisions later in life. The teacher not only urged the student to ...

Philip II of Macedon was the king of the ancient kingdom of Macedonia from 359 BC until his death in 336 BC. He was a member of the Argead dynasty, founders of the ancient kingdom, and the father of Alexander the Great. Wikipedia

For Calliban re topic ...

Could there be a genetic component to the results you have observed?

For great stretches of time, the ability to perform at a minimal level was sufficient to insure the success of a group, because much of the labor needed for survival would be done by machines today. The families that produced children able to endure the mind numbing work needed to survive might have done better than those who children were smarter but unable to stay with mind numbing labor.

It seems to me with the passage of time, and introduction of labor saving machinery and practices, the need for folks who can endure mind numbing hours of labor is becoming less, but (this is speculation on my part) it is possible that such folks are still being produced in great numbers.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-24 06:34:41

This new topic by Calliban offers an opportunity to explore the question of the direction taken by humans over millennia ...

I'm thinking of the question of "hunter" vs "farmer"

Those who followed the hunter path would have had to match wits with quarry, in addition to developing physical skills and capabilities for the chase. I have a memory of reading about hunters in Africa who were able to run after a large animal until it was exhausted.

Those who followed the "farmer" path would have been rewarded for their ability to hold steady in purpose for months at a time, and to learn the nuances of agriculture that increase chances of success.

Below is just one example of books that may focus on this topic:

The hunters and farmers theory of ADHD children is the idea that they are the "hunters" who are able to take in continuous stimuli and react quickly to changing circumstances. Whereas, non-ADHD children are the "farmers" who are patient, methodical, and focused over long periods of time.
ADHD: A Hunter in a Farmer's World by Thom Hartmann | Goodreads
www.goodreads.com › book › show

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-08-24 06:53:32

Chinese score high as I would expect, I don't seen any people from Norway or Japan or South Korea or Switzerland, perhaps they do private education or they are not enough of these cultures of people in Britain to get a mean average or maybe Swiss or Norweign are simply class as 'White' or Japan simply class 'Asia', people from Signapore and Finland should also rank high but I don't know if thats influence a cultural or genetic thing, Singapore are a mixed ethnicity peoples of mixed cultures and so are the Swiss. Black Caribbean are scoring somewhat Low I wonder if this is because of or bad boy stoner hooligan rapper 'Yardie' culture or is it genes, they seem to have a heritage of genetic mix from people mxing duing colonization and Black Carribean seem to be smarter than averages in Africa today. If you notice two very low levels there are groups that would class as White the 'Gypsy/Roma', 'Irish Traveller' I believe in some of these cultures there can be a tolerance of skipping school. The cultures can be 'Carnie' like with a tolerance of criminality in these cultures and they also inbreed with each other maybe sending their genes genetically backwards. Everyone normal I talked to in Europe seems to dislike the 'Roma' and Irish themselves seem to dislike their own version of gypsy 'Traveler', the Irish Traveler sometimes appear like gangster people with low impulse control and sometimes seem come with this boxer 'Conor McGregor' attitude, the current boxing heavyweight is an Irish-English gypsy 'Tyson Fury' I image as kids they probably bare knuckle boxed each other but I don't think that is good for your IQ. Roma, are thought to be an old Hindu Indo-Aryan ethnic group part of a lower caste that left India to Egypt to Europe a long time ago. GCSE is a British English education standard a General Certificate of Secondary Education, I am not sure how it compares to the USA and other countries I think it might classify within the public school system. I believe a lot of Geography, Algebra, Geometry, Biology, Calculus, that are taught as independent and sequential subjects can be combined under one general Science or Math subject in British schools. In England 7 (Key Stage 3) is called 'Sixth Class in Greece' or P7 Scotland, 6 in USA or 6 (Primary) in Australia, the British English school of 13 (Key Stage 4) is called Twelfth Class in Greece, S6 Scotland, 12 USA, 12 (HighSchool) Australia.

James Watson an American molecular biologist had his Noble Prize taken away when he talked of Race and IQ.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-08-24 06:57:16)

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-24 06:55:29

Some time ago GW Johnson posted a series about education.

He was willing to add a tag to the posts: "EducationDoneRight"

Here is one ...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 84#p157184

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 17#p157117

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 06#p157106

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 86#p157086

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 50#p157050

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 11#p157211

The list above was created by searching the query results, so they are not in chronological sequence.

Here is the same list in correct order:

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 50#p157050

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 86#p157086

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 06#p157106

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 17#p157117

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 84#p157184

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 11#p157211

To see the collection in sequence, set up your search as:
Keyword: EducationDoneRight
Author: GW Johnson
Index: Not So Free Chat
Topic or posts: Posts

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-24 06:59:38

RobertDyck set up an entire topic:
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8765

This new topic by Calliban is larger in scope ... the one by RobertDyck was about US education

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-24 07:27:33

For GW Johnson:

After scanning your EducationDoneRight sequence (again) in preparation of the post above (#5), I realized that the question of this topic as implied by Calliban (and reinforced by Mars_B4_Moon) includes both genetics of the student, and the influence of the teacher, and on a larger scale, the expectations of the community.

In your post series, you said (as you have often said) that you have a low opinion of technological solutions for education.

It seems to me that the supply of gifted teachers is NOT unlimited.

For that matter, the supply of TEACHERS who are willing to work in the current anti-intellectual environment in the United States and in Afghanistan (and probably other Nations) may be limited.

Who would want to work in a community (extending up to an entire State in the US) where history is denied and in fact falsely forced upon the population?

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-24 08:24:40

For Calliban re new topic ...

Closely allied with the topic you have opened here is the "Thirst for Knowledge"....

There may be a genetic component to that ....

A good teacher (or set of teachers) combined with a student with a thirst for knowledge has at least a running chance of success.

I'm leaving it to the reader to determine what "success" means in this context.

(th)

Void · 2023-08-24 09:15:44

It seems to me that this topic is thoughtful. I am glad.

(th) said this in post #3:

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 14,568
Email
This new topic by Calliban offers an opportunity to explore the question of the direction taken by humans over millennia ...
I'm thinking of the question of "hunter" vs "farmer"
Those who followed the hunter path would have had to match wits with quarry, in addition to developing physical skills and capabilities for the chase. I have a memory of reading about hunters in Africa who were able to run after a large animal until it was exhausted.
Those who followed the "farmer" path would have been rewarded for their ability to hold steady in purpose for months at a time, and to learn the nuances of agriculture that increase chances of success.
Below is just one example of books that may focus on this topic:
The hunters and farmers theory of ADHD children is the idea that they are the "hunters" who are able to take in continuous stimuli and react quickly to changing circumstances. Whereas, non-ADHD children are the "farmers" who are patient, methodical, and focused over long periods of time.
ADHD: A Hunter in a Farmer's World by Thom Hartmann | Goodreads
www.goodreads.com › book › show
(th)

The study of Egypt is very interesting as concerns farmers. I believe that the bulk of the population was basically meat robots. The guiding classes of priests told them when to plant, so they did not even have to figure that out. So, then I sort of think of it as a "Hive Mind". They were not stupid, in fact could do very impressive things, but there was no need for the common people to be smart.

I believe that you can trace echo's from that across Athens>Rome>Paris>London>Dublin>Somewhere in North America. They are not structures I would be content with, but they have their place. People to the north of these have generally been looked down on as ignorant people worth enslaving.

The idea of "Fitness", or "Superiority", or "Superhuman", is really lacking proof. If you are an oddball in someone else's social structure, it is likely you will not be appreciated for a talent that they do not use. You might be a novelty or a threat if you display such talents.

A verbal oriented society is a slow-motion hive mind. Each individual does not need strong intellect. Farm food may not be as nutritious as big brains may need. A big brain might be benefited by hunter gatherer who may not use as much verbal activity. It may not be a good idea to be a blabbermouth while you are hunting or being hunted. So, you would need to know how to work with others without having everything discussed in meetings out by a more autonomous mind perhaps. One that can anticipate what partners are going to do with less verbalization.

But mobs do slaughter. When groups get into mob mode brains are not usually present. So, exterminations happen on a less than conscious level. So, probably hunter gathers best not go to town, or they may get blamed for things as they may seem strange.

As I understand it in some "Primitive" places, if someone walks by your house and something unfortunate happens, that stranger might get blamed for being a Witch".

I gather things from time to time. One study I read about, (So, it is hear-say), is that brown eyed people are quick, and blue eyed people are like birds of prey in their behavior methods. As I say it is hear-say reading though. I have no more evidence than my memory.

One thing that is true now is that things like math and language are given assistance now by computers to people who are not as proficient in those.

So, actually scores on skill proficiency may not be as important as they once were. Just reality, I am afraid. Perhaps "White Collar" workers are less valuable now because of that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-24 09:37:05)

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-24 09:39:02

For Void .... while your post #9 is interesting for it's focus on Egypt (which I had not considered), it seems to me there are opportunities for you to help with the question of education.

Calliban opened with the interesting thesis that (as he observed) there appeared to be people in his time who were not "thirsting for knowledge".

I observed that the US Army (and I am confident the US Navy, and probably other services) are able to provide essential training (book and hands) for average persons. I did not observe a "thirst for knowledge" in my classmates, but it seemed to me the course materials and the instructional staff were sufficient to carry the majority of the students along.

The issue facing the United States right now, and probably other nations, and certainly Mars in the future, is how to develop productive citizens who will not seek to destroy the fabric of the society in which they were raised.

Education is the key to long term survival on Mars.

It may be the key to the long term survival of the United States, and perhaps other Nations.

(th)

Void · 2023-08-24 11:26:24

Alright let's live dangerous and risk consequences.

Chinese 69.2

It may be that there is a need for this to be added to a certain society. Someone has out gamed the ruling classes, parlor tricks magic show of who is worthy.

As for the lower scoring local people, they may be going to ground figuring to play things that way to hang on.

But at any time, I reserve the option to be wrong, as you have invited me to solve things that the best and brightest apparently cannot solve or do not want to solve. I should enjoy to option to be wrong and to be corrected in my thinking, should someone want to trouble themselves to make the effort.

But, to your questions. The internet is already an option for those who are curious. To a degree, but the devil people are now trying to use disinformation to manipulate things. So, I guess you have to filter what you read.

There may be several problems. Reality, from my perspective seems to have a guiding hand(s), which is converting one geographical geometric structure to another. Globalists want reality to be obedient to their fossil notion of what reality should be. The not interested people just don't want their time wasted by very stupid people who think they know what to do.

That is my best guess. If you think I adore where things are going, no, I don't. But the ruling powers not allowing the flow of geometry through time, have messed things up as far as I can see and very few want to follow such a losing path.

The future will arrive with or without us.

I am sorry to speak in riddles, but if I don't, I may inform powers of evil on what their next moves could be.

Done.

Maybe I am just off my medications?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-08-24 11:36:08)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-15 19:54:35

This is Calliban's topic, and I'm not sure where this item fits, but of the choices of topics with "eduction" in the title, this seems like a reasonable starting point ...

https://thewalrus.ca/is-homework-good-f … wtab-en-us

The article appears to be from Canada and about Canada, but there may be some similarity with practices in other nations. I don't remember any homework until high school but I sure got a lot of it there. In any case, the article at the link above is about a single family in Canada, which had to deal with homework in elementary school, until the family moved and the teacher at the new school did not assign homework. Around that story line, the author has blended commentary and inputs from related sources.

As a reminder, GW Johnson published a series on education which is available in the forum by searching for posts that contain "EducationDoneRight" in the body. If your search is successful, you should find six posts in sequence.

I just ran the search, and there are two additional settings: Set author to GW Johnson and Set [topics/posts] to Posts.

(th)

Terraformer · 2023-09-17 10:33:20

I think the Irish Traveller (and Gypsy/Roma?) results can be explained by the low value placed on schooling in that culture. A lot of the kids just don't get educated past maybe year 8.

But the attainment scores in that list cluster around 50, the score for White British. The outliers are Afro-Carribeans, Irish Travellers, Gypsy/Roma (worse than average) and Chinese, Indian (better than average). I wonder how Jewish students fare? I'd guess it would be skewed downward significantly by the ultra-orthodox not valuing secular education much. Simply racial categories don't properly capture the variation and what drives it -- "White British" will of course be a mix of middle class kids pushed by their parents and working class kids who don't see the point.

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-17 15:29:30

For Terraformer re #13 and topic in general....

A community on Mars will have an opportunity to create a new culture.

The valuing of education would seem to be a quality/feature that might be considered desirable.

I'm hoping this topic will explore how some cultures on Earth seem to support that value, while others do not.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-03-27 07:41:35

It might be time to bring this topic of Calliban's back into focus...

GW Johnson has prepared a course of instruction about basic concepts that would be needed by anyone who would like to learn orbital mechanics, with a role in navigation of a space craft in mind as an objective.

I have pitched Dr. Johnson's course to a Mom of a 12 year old, and while we may never hear back from the family, I am confident she and the son would have investigated. In the slim chance that we hear back from the family, I am inviting forum members to think about what an accelerated learning program for the upcoming summer break might look like. GW Johnson has described the general nature of the American learning schedule, which carries the bulk of the population along in a logical progression leading toward college level studies, where Dr. Johnson's course is most comfortably situated.

So! Does anyone have a suggestion for a reading list, viewing list and exercise regimen that would enable a student to take the course on offer in "Class" "Traditional" ?

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-03-27 08:08:07

I asked ChatGPT4 to consider the question of how to design a summer learning program that would prepare a 12 year old to handle Dr. Johnson's college level course on Basic Orbital Mechanics. Here is the report. We were cut off by communications errors in the final line, but enough of the report came through that I decided to post it.

Education Plan for Aspiring Spacecraft Navigators
Introduction: This plan outlines a summer curriculum designed to advance a 12-year-old student from basic grade school knowledge to understanding freshman college-level concepts in orbital mechanics, with a focus on the skills necessary to become a spacecraft navigator and potentially a mission commander.
[underline]Week 1-2: Foundations in Mathematics and Physics[/underline]
Objective: Solidify understanding of algebra, geometry, and basic physics.
Navigator Connection: Explain how understanding forces and motion is crucial for plotting spacecraft trajectories.
[underline]Week 3-4: Introduction to Calculus and Advanced Physics[/underline]
Objective: Begin calculus with a focus on derivatives and integrals. Introduce Newton's laws of motion in more depth, especially the law of universal gravitation.
Navigator Connection: Demonstrate how calculus is used to determine the changing velocity of spacecraft and to calculate gravitational forces between celestial bodies.
[underline]Week 5-6: Astronomy and Celestial Mechanics[/underline]
Objective: Basic concepts of astronomy, focusing on the solar system, celestial movements, and Kepler's laws.
Navigator Connection: Show how navigators use celestial bodies for positioning and the importance of understanding their movements for mission planning.
[underline]Week 7-8: Orbital Dynamics[/underline]
Objective: Dive into orbital mechanics, including orbit types, delta-v calculations, and Hohmann transfer orbits.
Navigator Connection: Practical exercises in plotting transfer orbits, emphasizing the navigator's role in mission planning and execution.
[underline]Week 9-10: Practical Applications and Simulations[/underline]
Objective: Use simulation software to model orbits and plan missions. Introduce basic concepts of spacecraft operation and control.
Navigator Connection: Engage in hands-on navigation exercises, simulating real mission scenarios where students must calculate and plot courses.
[underline]Continuous Elements:[/underline]
Visual Aids and Simulations: Use AI like DALL-E to visualize complex concepts and orbits. Simulation software can provide a practical understanding of celestial mechanics.
Career Insights: Throughout the program, integrate stories and examples from real spacecraft navigators and mission commanders. Highlight how the skills being learned apply directly to their roles.
[underline]Supplemental Activities:[/underline]
Guest Speakers: Invite professionals from the field of space exploration to share their experiences and insights.
Project Work: Encourage students to undertake a project that involves planning a mission, using the mathematics and physics they've learned to plot a course to another planet or moon.
[underline]Final Project:[/underline]
Mission Planning Exercise: Students will use their accumulated knowledge to plan a space mission. This includes selecting a destination, calculating the necessary orbits, and

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-03-27 08:11:39

A program such as described in Post #16 could be offered at a national level, if there were sufficient interest.

PBS is a natural venue. It already has a dedicated kid's channel.

However, the Internet is now powerful and pervasive enough to provide the entire course online, with the added advantage that AI assistance can be enlisted to provide moment by moment coaching.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-04-14 20:46:06

This topic has been quiet for a while....

Here is a link to an article about early education that really spoke to me...

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the- … wtab-en-us

I was aware that language learning is best provided before 5, and this article adds support to that argument.

In the article, the author explains that a growing child has the flexibility to make sounds that are part of languages other than English. If the child is given the opportunity to absorb those sounds they will be available for life, and the child can then continue developing skill in multiple languages.

The article supports reading as early as possible as well.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-06-02 09:23:30

It's time for an update to this important topic:

https://time.com/7289184/farm-system-am … wtab-en-us

The content of this article should not be controversial, but we'll see. The American system (as it has been) steered away from trying to guide education in some families, in recent years, while others appear to have continued trying to encourage academic excellence.

The author of the article at the link above points out the challenges ahead. Our education system seems not to be preparing the population for elimination of menial jobs and requirement for mentally challenging ones.

Here's a bit of the article:

May 29, 2025 6:00 AM ET
We Need a Farm System for American Jobs—Before It’s Too Late
by
John Hope Bryant
Bryant is the founder, chairman and CEO of Operation HOPE and Bryant Group Ventures
Hiking a Football
A young football player gets ready to hike a football.Matt Brown—Getty Images
America has a talent pipeline problem.
Not in sports—we’ve got that covered. From the moment a kid picks up a football, we’ve built an entire ecosystem to scout, train, and elevate them through high school, college, and into the pros. It’s a structured path from raw talent to professional achievement. But when it comes to preparing young Americans for jobs in the industries that actually drive our economy—healthcare, tech, finance, real estate, the professions and trades, advanced manufacturing, AI—we’ve got nothing close to that same focus and program.
And that is a massive missed opportunity.
We don’t just need to fix what’s broken—we need to build what’s missing. What I’m proposing is simple: a farm club system for American jobs of the future. A national pipeline—backed by private enterprise and public policy—that starts in K-12 and follows a young person all the way into a career with dignity, purpose, and a paycheck.
Because here’s the truth: while politicians argue over immigration and trade policy, the real threat to American economic dominance is internal. It’s our failure to prepare the next generation for the economy that’s coming.
We’re short millions of skilled workers — not because Americans aren’t willing to work, but because we haven’t shown them where the jobs are, how to get them, and why they matter. We’ve disconnected our education system from our economic engine.
Right now, we let young people stumble through the most important years of their lives with little real-world guidance. They graduate from high school (sometimes) and are left to figure it out on their own. Some go to college and rack up debt. Others go straight to work, but too often in low-wage, low-growth jobs that don’t match their talents.
This isn’t just inefficient. It’s a national liability.
The good news? We already know how to build a farm system. We’ve done it in professional sports. We’ve done it in the military. We’ve done it in music and the arts. The missing piece is vision and leadership—and belief. We have to believe in young people as assets, not problems. And we have to organize our economy to cultivate their potential from an early age.
That means starting in elementary school with exposure: showing kids what’s possible beyond their neighborhoods. It means bringing business leaders into classrooms — not just for speeches, but for partnerships. Real apprenticeships. Real mentorships. Real pathways. Like right here at Operation HOPE, and specifically the AI Ethics Council that Sam Altman and I co-chair, and its new AILP3 – which is a AI learning pipeline for young people from elementary school through college in Atlanta, where I live, a partnership with Mayor Andre Dickens, Atlanta Public Schools and Georgia State University and it’s Robinson College of Business. This is a focus Ph.D and Ph.Do too.
By middle school, we should be identifying interests and aptitudes—whether it’s coding, caregiving, carpentry, or clean energy—and channeling them into hands-on experiences. By high school, students should be plugged into sector-specific programs that align with real industries in their region, whether that’s aerospace in Atlanta, robotics in Pittsburgh, or renewable energy in Texas.
And by the time they graduate, they should have credentials, not just diplomas. A line of sight into a career, not just a hope and a prayer.
This isn’t about eliminating college. It’s about making it one of many valid routes — not the only one. We need to dignify the skilled trades again. We need to champion community colleges and technical schools. We need to stop telling young people that success looks only one way.
We also need business to step up. Not just with donations—with hiring commitments, onramps and training investments. The companies of the future can’t just be headquartered in America. They need to be rooted in American talent. That means betting on the 15-year-old in Detroit just as seriously as we bet on the five-star recruit in Alabama.
And government has a role, too. We need federal and state policies that incentivize school-to-career partnerships, reward innovation in workforce education, and fund modern infrastructure that connects schools, employers, and community-based organizations. This is how we close the skills gap. This is how we rebuild a middle class that’s been eroded for decades. And this is how we future-proof America—by investing in our own people.
The world isn’t waiting for us to figure this out. China, Singapore, and South Korea are investing in its next generation. And we’re still debating whether shop class belongs in school.
Let’s build a workforce farm system that rivals anything we’ve ever done in sports. Let’s treat our young people like draft picks—not dropouts. Let’s give them a bench, a coach, and a playbook for the game of life. That’s how you raise up a nation. That’s how you grow GDP. That’s how you win the future.
Must-Reads from TIME

The US is steeped in the capitalist structure. As I ponder Bryant's article, it occurs to me that the capitalist system is hard at work running the sports farm system that Bryant describes. We have nothing similar for vocational education, except for parents. It seems to me that the capitalist system might be enlisted if an incentive structure were created for academic or vocational achievement.

An example might be scholarships offered by corporations (with public support coming in the form of tax write-offs)

In China (as near as I can tell) the Communist Party is the driving force incentivizing the population to learn, but that tradition goes back to Confucius at least. The United States has nothing comparable, except for family traditions.

(th)

kbd512 · 2025-06-02 20:24:06

Edit:
Post removed because it was accidentally placed in the wrong topic.

Edit #2:
One aspect of education within a freer capitalist system is that it doesn't enforce quite as rigid adherence to a doctrinal curriculum as a communist system. The ultimate benefit from freer expression of thought is innovation rather than engineering of solutions only. If test scores alone were reflective of a much more complex depiction of knowledge vs intelligence, then the most industrious students ought to be your best innovators as well. While the willingness to work harder is commendable, the ability to work smarter always pay greater dividends over time. As important as industriousness and engineering is to a well-functioning of society, absent new inventions every society will ultimately stagnate and fall behind as those existing solutions, however well refined, are replaced by entirely new ways of doing things.

With all the engineers and high test scores that Chinese society has produced over the past 25 years, for example, why is it that there are only "fake cities" where nobody can actually live in China?

Here in America, if you were to propose building entire cities, complete with block after block after block of high-rise apartment complexes with no running water or doors that lead to a wall, even the high school educated workers here in America, with below average test scores, would look at someone who wanted them to do such a thing and say, "Nah, we're not doing that." There is no point to them risking life and limb to erect an entire city that nobody could ever live in. Every Chinese person residing in their cities could and should live in opulent luxury, if only they'd built buildings and indeed entire cities designed for people to live in. The scale of that activity indicated that standing armies of architects, engineers, and construction men were absolutely required to make 10+ story structures that would stand at all, yet all those people never said to themselves, "This is entirely pointless and we're not going to do this because it's nuts."

What was the point of all that phenomenal education if it was never allowed to be used for something half-way intelligent?

Building an entire city for nobody would be more soul-crushing than my financiers telling me that my building was ugly. Even if I was greatly enamored with my artistic flair, I could still create buildings in a style pleasing to someone else rather than myself. What must it be like to build something that nobody outside of the construction crew will ever see?

How do you explain what you do to your children?

Well, son, I design these entire cities that only exist because everyone from the local party leadership to the investment bankers to the newest construction man can use to obtain "appreciation valuation" from, on the premise that what we built will increase in value as "developed real estate", even though nobody could ever live there, and deliberately so. Highly educated men and women collectively decided that this is what we would do with our invested time and money, rather than improving our own lives and your life by using our education and ingenuity to create higher quality buildings to house the people we do have.

Western society is not without such absurdities, just to be crystal clear on this matter. We flare off natural gas at the well head because when said gas is contaminated with Sulfur, for example, it's not permitted to be pumped to a gas-fired turbine to be converted to electricity. The pollution will still be generated, but nobody benefits at all from its creation. If that sounds idiotic, that's because it is and everyone outside of government recognizes it as such. The difference is that this sort of activity is solely the machination of governance policy. Business and industry never had a "get together" where they all agreed to uselessly burning natural gas. They were forced into that position by their own government. They would much rather sell that somewhat contaminated gas, perhaps at a reduced price since it's less desirable, and then someone gets their lights turned on at a price they can afford. When wells are drilled, they cost a lot of labor, materials, and therefore money, which means we want to maximize the benefit of each well. Nobody deliberately drills for contaminated gas. The problem is that you never know what you're going to get, but you have to make the investment to find out.

I knew a petroleum engineer from the Middle East who complained that while he was drilling wells in Africa, the local government priced the gas out of the ability of the locals to pay for it, even though selling it to them was the cheapest and easiest way to exploit it, and would maximize its potential benefit to society. He had natural gas in his room to cook meals with, but the locals had to continue burning dung. As an engineer, he viewed liquefying the gas to ship it all the way to Europe or America or Asia as stupid, pointless, and wasteful, largely because Europe could afford to drill its own local wells, but refused to do so out of some sense of "not in my backyard".

These examples were intended to illustrate why there must be something beyond paper that determines the true value of education and its benefits to a society. I'm not a philosopher, so I lack the education to determine what that value proposition should be, but someone ought to make the case for why we should or should not focus on test scores, and then periodically reexamine whether or not the theory agrees with the results.

Last edited by kbd512 (2025-06-02 23:31:23)

tahanson43206 · 2025-06-03 07:15:53

Thanks to kbd512 for this contribution to Calliban's topic:
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 14#p232014

I am hoping other NewMars members will join with kbd512 in carefully reading the opinion piece and providing an assessment of the proposal to develop a "farm system" for useful vocations, similar to the "farm system" for athletics that is so widely developed in the US.

It appears to me that the United States is at a competitive disadvantage with respect to China.

In a few decades of fierce effort, the Chinese have educated far more engineers that has the United States.

I asked Google for statistics, and it came back with a report that in 2021, China graduated six times as many persons with Bachelor's Degrees in engineering or computer science as did the United States.

It seems to me that what we are seeing is the Capitalist system doing what it does best! It saw an opportunity to shift manufacturing to China and to make money and to save money at the same time. The Chinese appear to have seen this as an opportunity to become global providers of high technology while at the same time producing vast quantities of low tech items that consumers clearly want and some even need.

This is another example of Adam Smith's principles at work.

The question posed by John Hope Bryant in Post #19 is whether the United States might improve it's educational performance by adopting procedures (and incentives) that are well developed in the sports industry.

I'd like to see contributions to this topic that address the opportunity before us.

I would like to see contributions to this topic that show in cold numbers the exact performance of the United States vs other global technology leaders. I don't have the numbers available to share, but I get the impression the United States still makes a small ? share of global production, but that share is steadily decreasing.

(th)

kbd512 · 2025-06-03 13:22:05

tahanson43206,

Why China's Universities Are Ditching Their Engineering Programs

Question posed to Google AI:
Why has China been unable to capitalize on its engineering graduates?
Answer:
While China graduates a large number of engineers annually, several factors hinder the country from fully capitalizing on this talent pool. These include: the quality of engineering education, limited opportunities for innovation, and a preference for state-sector employment among graduates.
Quality of Education:
Some surveys suggest that engineering graduates may lack basic knowledge and critical thinking skills, hindering their ability to innovate and contribute to cutting-edge research.
Limited Innovation Environment:
China's entrepreneurial environment, with its emphasis on state-owned enterprises, may discourage graduates from pursuing innovative ventures in the private sector.
Preference for State Sector:
Many accomplished graduates prefer working in the state sector due to the stability and security it offers, potentially diverting talent away from the private sector and innovation.
Political and Corporate Culture:
The political climate and the grinding corporate culture in China can also discourage innovation and limit the ability of engineers to fully contribute their skills.
Global Competition:
China's engineering graduates face intense competition from a large talent pool, both domestically and internationally.
Lack of Cross-Disciplinary Training:
Engineering graduates may lack the breadth of training across disciplines, which could limit their ability to contribute to interdisciplinary research and innovation.
Focus on Specific Fields:
While China produces a large number of engineers, the focus on specific fields like infrastructure and manufacturing may limit the diversification of innovation across different sectors.
Inadequate Infrastructure:
The lack of robust infrastructure to support innovation, such as research and development facilities, may also limit the ability of engineers to fully utilize their potential.

kbd512 · 2025-06-03 14:41:13

This is from NPR, back in 2006:
Figures on Chinese Engineers Fail to Add Up - by Adam Davidson, June 12th, 2006

A report cited in The New York Times and quoted on the House floor claimed China graduates nine times as many engineers as the U.S. Skeptical, a Duke professor had students check the numbers.
...
Mr. REISING: We would ask deans how many colleges do you have affiliated under your name, and they couldn't tell us.
DAVIDSON: If a dean doesn't know how many colleges he's running, he certainly can't say how many engineers are graduating.
It took a while, but eventually Reising and his team came up with a number they felt was close to right. The media accounts had India graduating 350,000 engineers a year. Reising says the real number is closer to 100,000.
With India done, the team turned to China.
Mr. REISING: Universities there were simply unwilling to provide us with information. We'd get through, and they'd be like, why do you want to know this information? You know, we're unwilling to provide it. We won't even give you our names.
DAVIDSON: Pretty soon, they realized how the system works. The Chinese central government in Beijing had simply decided that 600,000 is the number of engineers they want China to graduate each year.
Vivek Wadwha...
Prof. WADWHA: Government has told the provinces that they have to graduate more engineers, and so the provinces tell the Chinese government what they want to hear.
DAVIDSON: Some universities counted every student who studied anything vaguely associated with engineering as engineers. In provinces where there just weren't enough students of any kind, the government counted repairmen and factory laborers as engineers. This forced the Duke researchers to realize they had to answer a more fundamental question. What is an engineer?
Ben Reising...
Mr. REISING: It's a difficult question, but an engineer is someone who can take technical know-how and apply innovative solutions that are going to ultimately benefit mankind.
DAVIDSON: I interview people and then I use my technical knowledge of how audio editing works, and then I benefit mankind. So am I an engineer?
Prof. WADWHA: If you were in China, you would be classified as an engineer. In India you probably wouldn't. In the U.S.A. you wouldn't be.
DAVIDSON: In the end, the Duke project came up with an estimate of 351,000 engineering students graduating every year in China. That's just over half of the 600,000 number that had gained so much attention.
So China is graduating about two and a half times as many engineers as the U.S. does, but China's population is, of course, more than four times as big. The Duke researchers said these numbers should reassure Americans that we're doing just fine. And there's even better news, Wadwha says: our engineers get a much better education.
Prof. WADWHA: This is what America's advantage is. This is why our graduates have a much better chance of competing and, you know, doing innovation and rising within the corporate world than others. Their best is as good as our best are. However, the average engineer from the U.S.A. is much, much, better than the average engineer from India and China.
DAVIDSON: Chinese engineering classes are typically in huge rooms, where a lot of students learn mechanically, by rote. Americans get a far broader education. They learn at least some art and business. They leave school with better skills. So, Wadwha says, he can't understand why so many people think China is on the verge of replacing the U.S. as the world's leading innovator.
Prof. WADWHA: We're not a little ahead of India and China, we're miles ahead of India and China. The problem with this debate is that by constantly saying that we're weak, we're bad, we send the message to our children saying that if you get into engineering you're going to lose, you're going to have your jobs outsourced, and we become bad.
DAVIDSON: The National Academy of Sciences has now changed its report to reflect the numbers that the Duke team came up with. Most media accounts now use the Duke figures.
The researchers are quick to point out that there is no cultural explanation for all of this. Many students in U.S. schools are from India and China, and they tend to do very well here. The best ones, they say, usually decide to stay in the U.S. There's so much more opportunity for great engineers here.
Adam Davidson, NPR News.

The China Academy - How Did China’s Top Major Become the Worst?

How Did China’s Top Major Become the Worst?
Taking Civil Engineering as an example, due to the limited anticipated growth in the Chinese construction industry, the admission scores for Civil Engineering majors in Chinese universities are continuously decreasing. However, the rise of the Intelligent Construction major is changing the landscape.

The implication from those articles is that some part of China's leadership has now recognizes that quality eventually has greater importance to their benefit to society than sheer quantity. Beyond that, in the realm of true engineering there is no amount of fakery that will pass muster if your skills are put to the test. Calling a guy who can do basic electrical work an "engineer" is a bit of a stretch. By that metric, I would be considered an electrical engineer, except that I'm not and refuse to even pretend to be.

Dr Sabine Hossenfelder recently lamented that within the realm of physics, across the entire world, a lot of "scientific" publications pertain to "BS research". There's nothing particularly useful about knowing the precise speed of light to 1,000,000 digits of precision vs 1,000. If that is the sort of "scientific challenge" that your physicists are taking on these days, then whatever their true talents may or may not be, their time is being squandered on "trivial pursuits". The results from such an experiment may be of academic interest, but for all practical purposes nothing fundamentally new will be learned. We're still no closer to capitalizing on our new-found knowledge of precisely how fast the speed of light actually is.

We discovered this new miracle material named "Graphene", but we're not meaningfully closer to being able to use Graphene to construct a space elevator than when Geim and Novoselov first isolated that material 21 years ago at Manchester University. Do we now possess vastly more economical methods for making Graphene today vs 21 years ago? Absolutely. What we presently know is still nowhere near "good enough" for a functional space elevator using Graphene support cables. Quite a number of programs and research fellows from around the world, including China, have all contributed to humanity's Graphene knowledge base since then, but it remains a highly specialized material with few applications where the extreme cost of making it can be justified.

Is the next discovery, regardless of where it happens, poised to overturn the present paradigm and enable this miraculous new material to shine where previous efforts failed to produce the material in the quality and quantity required for Graphene macro structures?

Possibly, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

The point worth remembering would be that a slew of inter-disciplinary innovations are required to construct something like a space elevator. You can throw as many people as you like at solving that problem, but it doesn't mean any particular scientific / engineering innovation problem will get solved any faster. There is also an opportunity cost associated with pouring all your brightest young minds into Graphene innovation. Other potential solutions get ignored out of necessity, to focus on a single challenging problem.

What if someone figured out how to economically generate enough thrust to accelerate upwards, without using reaction mass or megastructures, while all of your engineers were tinkering with Graphene space elevators?

A large part of that awesome research effort immediately became a waste of money, intellectual capability, and irreplaceable time. The Chinese communist government is prone to repeatedly making such mistakes, because that's a "feature" of central planning. When most of what you do is dictated by political power structure and you incessantly prioritize maintenance of that power structure over true innovation or useful engineering projects with coherent national priorities, as opposed to "just doing something to give your engineers something to do", you go from "Civil Engineering Is Everything" to, we're no longer attracting students because we have nothing for that many Civil Engineers to do that is minimally useful to society. That's why they built multiple "fake cities" where nobody could actually live.

NewMarsMember · 2025-06-25 07:06:45

This topic of Calliban's seems appropriate for a post about the educational offerings of the University of Colorado...

The PhET web site was brought to my attention, when I asked for information about asteroid interaction with a planet. We (NewMars) received a most courteous and helpful reply, and I thought that members might like to learn more about the wide range of educational offerings:

PhET - University of Colorado Boulder
PhET
https://phet.colorado.edu
Free interactive math and science simulations. PhET sims are based on extensive education research and engage students through an intuitive, game-like ...
New Sims - PhET Simulations
Simulations. All Sims · Physics · Math & Statistics · Chemistry ...
Circuit Construction Kit: DC
Skip to Main Content. PhET Home Page. University of Colorado ...
States of Matter - Atomic Bonding
Skip to Main Content. PhET Home Page. University of Colorado ...
Forces and Motion: Basics
Download on the App Store ... Google Play Badge ... Get ...
Bending Light - Snell's Law
Skip to Main Content. PhET Home Page. University of Colorado ...
More results from colorado.edu »
Videos

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