Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

SpaceNut · 2022-10-13 23:54:55

Key points in the article as smaller lower cost builds that provide for local water use, that saves the environment on land and sea, presents no hazards from brine discharge as its diluted with wastewater plants output. seems like a win win.

Steve Stewart · 2022-10-18 18:06:31

The link below has 12 minutes of audio from the radio program "Science Friday". The segment is about a passive device that has a polymer that can extract water from dry air. The text portion states "...allows the team to extract as much as six liters of water per day from one kilogram of their polymer, even in areas with 15% humidity. That’s drier than the Sahara Desert." Seems like this could be used on Mars as well.

Pulling Water From Thin Air? It’s Materials Science, Not Magic.

tahanson43206 · 2022-10-18 18:59:50

For Steve Stewart re #327

Thanks for the mention of "Science Friday" !!! There was a time when I caught every episode, but it's been a while, so I'm glad to know they are still broadcasting. The report you've described sounds really interesting!

The application on Mars seems (to me at least) very similar to the application in space vessels (such as Large Ship) as well as in Mars habitats, where moisture in the air would be valuable as a resource to be captured when humidity is higher than humans (or plants) would find comfortable.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-10-22 08:39:24

This is the other shoe that will drop once the water is gone as The West’s biggest source of renewable energy depends on water. Will it survive the drought?
To have the water we will need to lower the power creation which means coming up with alternatives.

tahanson43206 · 2022-10-22 08:55:57

For SpaceNut re #329

Thanks for keeping an eye on this slowly unfolding disaster .... I caught an interview yesterday that was conducted by a gent from Phoenix. He was interviewing a resident of a nation in Africa, where the drought has led to countless deaths and dislocation. The gent from Phoenix mused aloud that the situation in Africa might be a vision of what he and his neighbors will be seeing.

The solution (for Phoenix and possibly elsewhere) has been hammered out at great length and in detail in this topic.

Our contact in Phoenix has given up on the idea of introducing any new ideas into the social situation in that city, or in Arizona.

Minds are made up, and only Ma Nature has the power to change them.

It will be interesting to watch.

(th)

Steve Stewart · 2022-10-22 10:15:13

Comment #328 Tahanson43206 wrote:

Thanks for the mention of "Science Friday" !!! There was a time when I caught every episode, but it's been a while, so I'm glad to know they are still broadcasting.

Tahanson43206,
I'm glad you like Science Friday. I can't listen to it live, since I'm always at work when it's on. I usually visit their web-site when I can and download episodes as an MP3 file. I can then listen to the MP3 file when I'm in my car, or mowing with my headphones on, etc. I went through the Science Friday Archive searching for anything Mars related. I went back about a year and found the following (Mars related) segments.

Making A Meal Fit For An Astronaut
12 minutes
10/14/2022

Building A Better Battery… Using Plastic?
11 minutes
06/03/2022

Why Exactly Should We Go Back To The Moon—And Onto Mars?
Books
How should we square pro-space arguments from tech CEOs with the history of imperialism and underinvestment in social equity programs? How to Save the World for Just a Trillion Dollars: The Ten Biggest Problems We Can Actually Fix
04/15/2022

Last Martian Love Fest
17 minutes
04/01/2022

The Case Of Mars’ Missing Water
17 minutes
03/18/2022

Can Meteorites On Earth Point To Ancient Life On Mars?
19 minutes
03/04/2022

Blast Off To The Red Planet With The Spring Book Club
9 minutes
02/25/2022

Get Outta This World With Our Mars Book Club Events
02/21/2022
SCIFRI BOOK CLUB - LIVE EVENT
(Can rewatch past events)

Read ‘The Sirens Of Mars’ With The SciFri Book Club
01/21/2022
Article
Sarah Stewart Johnson explores humanity’s fascination with the Red Planet in ‘The Sirens Of Mars.’ We’ll read it together this spring.

The Importance Of Gathering Samples From Mars Before Humans Arrive
01/21/2022
Article
Scientist Sarah Stewart Johnson makes the case for why we should do as much science as we can on Mars—before humans step foot on the planet. The Sirens Of Mars

NASA Scientist Answers Kids’ Questions About The Mars Rover
09/17/2021
4 minutes

What’s Shaking Below Mars’ Surface?
07/30/2021
17 minutes

tahanson43206 · 2022-10-22 10:53:35

For Steve Stewart re #331

Thanks for this (to me impressive) list of Science Friday programs that apply (directly or indirectly) to the Mars project!

Would you be interested in setting up a Science Friday topic in the Other Space Advocacy Index?

The Phoenix water problem/challenge topic is fairly narrow in focus, and the topics you've shown seem (to me at least) to fit in many existing topics.

Your call!

See the Space Show topic as a model.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-10-22 18:32:19

More to the draught that is hitting yes, the Mississippi River and its tributaries have dropped to record lows is an understatement when there were months ago when it looked like a viable method to get water, but it does not look so good now.
More to that story is that The US Army Corps of Engineers is dredging the Mississippi River and racing to keep the sea from contaminating drinking water

tahanson43206 · 2022-11-17 18:43:55

For SpaceNut re #333

This evening's news (on a local channel) included a long interview with officials involved in dealing with the low-water conditions of the Mississippi River.

The official explained that the US government (and all junior partners) have worked out procedures for dealing with flooding on the Mississippi. The have almost NOTHING in place to deal with low water, because it has happened so seldom in the past.

The quote below is anther report on the difficulty of living in Arizona right now....

https://www.yahoo.com/news/faucets-pois … 39799.html

NBC News
Faucets poised to run dry for hundreds of Arizona residents by year's end
Deon J. Hampton
Thu, November 17, 2022 at 6:06 PM
RIO VERDE FOOTHILLS, Ariz. — More than 500 homes in this affluent desert community that boasts mountain views, ample trees and ranches hidden in the crooks of scrubby hills will run out of water by year's end as drought tightens its grip on the West.
Residents of Rio Verde Foothills outside Scottsdale have tried for years to resolve the looming crisis to no avail as the deadline to stop their water deliveries draws closer, forcing individual homeowners to find their own sources of water for drinking, bathing, washing dishes or doing their laundry.
“It’s going to be really ugly and terrible for our homeowners and landowners,” said Karen Nabity, who has lived in Rio Verde Foothills for seven years. “Some of us will borrow water from a friend’s well, others will have to pay a water hauler from far away.”
Rio Verde Foothills resident Karen Nabity. (Dean J. Hampton / NBC News)
As climate change makes the Western United States hotter and drier, the looming crisis in Rio Verde Foothills exemplifies how cities and states could be forced to vie for a diminishing amount of the natural resource.
The rural community of about 2,200 homes in unincorporated Maricopa County does not have its own water system, and most residents get their water from private wells on their properties. But more than 500 homeowners rely strictly on truck haulers to deliver water from a standpipe in Scottsdale. Another 200 whose wells are running dry periodically use the water haulers, as well, residents say.
But a year ago, Scottsdale notified Rio Verde homeowners that its water supply would be limited to city residents only starting Jan. 1, 2023, barring trucking companies from purchasing and exporting its water.
The notice came nearly a decade after Scottsdale first asked Rio Verde residents to search for an alternative water source, city officials said.
Scottsdale Water, the municipal utility, said the decision was one element of a larger contingency plan by the Central Arizona Project, which delivers water from the Colorado River to central and southern Arizona, to reduce its consumption. Scottsdale residents also were urged to reduce their usage as a first step toward more stringent restrictions.
The contingency plan was activated after the federal Bureau of Reclamation, which oversees Colorado River operations, declared a "Tier 1" shortage in August 2021 for the first time. The declaration reduces the amount of water Arizona, Nevada and Mexico can get from the river, which supplies water to about 40 million people in the Western U.S. The tier goes up as river levels go down, with Tier 3 being the most severe.
Some Rio Verde Foothills residents said they don't know how such an important issue could have dragged on so long without a resolution.
“It’s a priority because why wouldn’t we want to solve this problem,” said Jennifer Simpson, who was drawn to Rio Verde Foothills 23 years ago by its wide-open spaces.
Rio Verde Foothills resident Jennifer Simpson. (Dean J. Hampton / NBC News)
Rio Verde Foothills resident Jennifer Simpson. (Dean J. Hampton / NBC News)
Maricopa County officials said they can't fix the problem because they're not water providers. Scottsdale officials said they have no other option because their first commitment is to their own residents.
In Rio Verde Foothills, a sprawling community bisected by horse ranches and dusty gravel roads, the impending cutoff is likely to translate into much higher costs to have water shipped in from locations at least 60 miles away.
Some property owners thought they had solved the problem when they banded together to try to create their own water improvement district. But the plan was dashed this year when the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors voted down their petition, saying the majority of residents didn't want the proposed district because it could potentially lead to some of their properties being condemned to build a new water delivery system.
Rio Verde Foothills. (Deon J. Hampton / NBC News)
A Canada-based water company, Epcor Utilities, filed an application in October to supply Rio Verde Foothills with water, said Nick Debus, a spokesman for the Arizona Corporation Commission, a state agency that regulates private water.
If the project were approved, he said, the utility would have to acquire land, construct a standpipe and drill a new well, which could take two to three years.
Though water supply costs vary widely, rates for Rio Verde residents would increase exponentially to $20 for 1,000 gallons of water delivered, according to the application. The average Scottsdale resident pays $1.65 for 1,000 gallons and residents of nearby Glendale pay 33 cents for the same amount, according to KPNX, the NBC affiliate in Phoenix. Collectively, Rio Verde uses 48 million gallons of water a year, according to its residents.
Thomas Loquvam, general counsel for Epcor, said the commission asked the utility to provide water for residents, who would foot the bill for the project, resulting in the higher rates. Only homes built before 2024 would receive water from the proposed district, he added.
Although unfamiliar with the details, Rio Verde Foothills resident Adam Zingg said he prefers Epcor over a water improvement district because the latter would create another layer of government.
“We need as a community to find a solution,” he said. “I’m sure that if there’s no access to water, we’d be up in arms.”
Many Rio Verde Foothills residents say they feel abandoned.
“I’m frustrated and flabbergasted,” said Simpson, the 23-year resident. “We’re sitting here still waiting.”
This article was originally published on NBCNews.com

I've heard from my Phoenix contact since the election settled.

Nothing could be discussed, considered or even thought about until the governorship was determined.

I'm hoping that citizens will begin to think about and to converse about alternatives for the future.

If any news comes my way, I'll pass it along.

Small Modular Nuclear Reactors may get a surprising boost from the Russian invasion of Ukraine ... I'm not sure where I picked up this hint, but the hint was that the US and Ukraine may be thinking about a crash program to roll out SMR's to take the place of the old-style-traditional-Soviet reactors that Vladimir Putin is putting out of business as fast as his rocket crews can light fuses.

A massive rollout of SMR's for Ukraine ** could ** (theoretically) smooth the way for their adoption in the US.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-11-17 19:28:52

One issue for any nation that has SMR's is that the enemy can use them for terrorism when they invade as its been shown so more of these spread out could cause an even large problem to a nation trying to wage war but that is for other places for discusion.

I saw another topic with that same title with more facts.

faucets-poised-to-run-dry-for-hundreds-of-arizona-residents-by-year-s-end

kbd512 · 2022-11-17 19:47:51

SpaceNut,

If all of the SMRs are kept on the same plot of land devoted to a much larger traditional reactor, then I fail to see how terrorism is a major concern. The reactors could be buried a kilometer underground if there's that much hysteria over them. I think that's a make-believe problem created by anti-nuclear activists.

If large parts of Arizona no longer receive water, you won't have to worry about any kind of terrorism, enemy action, etc. Large numbers of people will die anyway. This is what our mental midgets don't seem to understand. People die much more quickly without water and power than they do from nuclear radiation from failed or intentionally sabotaged nuclear reactors.

How many people in Ukraine have died from AK-47s vs nuclear reactors?

How about starvation vs nuclear reactors?

If you wanna be afraid of something, then at least be afraid of something with a high probability and near-certain outcome (not too many people shot in the chest with an AK or PKM in the middle of winter survive).

tahanson43206 · 2022-11-17 19:52:07

For SpaceNut re #335

My guess would be that Ukraine is going to come out of this unpleasant episode as a major power, and they will (I am guessing) be intolerant of further adventures by their neighbors. Meanwhile, it appears (from little hints that keep popping up) that Putin himself is looking for a cushy nest in an African nation where he's set up an escape bungalow, with a nice $15,000,000 nest egg.

That might work, if folks who have lost confidence in him don't prevent his departure.

***
All that aside, my mention of SMR's for Ukraine was in the context of smoothing the way for their massive rollout in the US, where they could make a difference for such applications as desalinating sea water. It is in the context of desalinating sea water that they first showed up in this topic.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-11-17 19:58:10

Kbd512, that is quite deep, and would be sufficient protection but can we construct it without any access point to them for servicing?

kbd512 · 2022-11-17 20:29:02

SpaceNut,

The reactors would still require servicing, but the point is that getting direct physical access to the reactor without the say-so of the operator is much more difficult. NORAD is not utterly impossible to break into, but try doing it sometime to see how well that goes. If you don't have your own army, a giant crane to lift the reactor out of its hole, your own radiation protection, your own tools to get at the fissile material, etc, then how well does that work in real life? How many people have successfully used force to break into NORAD or Area 51?

Getting onto a military base is not impossible, either, but walking out with nuclear weapons is an entirely different story.

All the supposedly "stolen" US military weapons have probably been pilfered by our own government and diverted to whatever black ops project they don't want you to know about.

Given the number of angry nutters in this country and every other country, why haven't we seen any successful break-ins?

It must not be so easy when the Police, the US Army, and rednecks with rifles will either shoot you on-sight or hunt you to the ends of the Earth, for the rest of your life.

My surmise is that bribing a ballistic missile officer in the US Air Force is also not an easy thing to get away with. You may find someone willing to sell out their country, but that's not the issue you'd face under that scenario. The problem involves bribing all of them at the same time, which is near-impossible, because someone will have a problem with their children potentially being incinerated in a nuclear fireball, so even if one or even both of the officers with the codes and the weapon can be bribed, unless you can bribe everyone else in our military, then you'll be hunted for the rest of your life.

That is the practical explanation as to why nobody has done it. Getting everyone to look the other way requires a complete societal breakdown, kinda like what happened in Russia after the Cold War. Under the old Soviet system, that would never happen.

SpaceNut · 2022-11-22 16:58:17

More than 500 households in the rural Arizona desert are set to be without running water starting January, 1 2023,

SpaceNut · 2022-11-24 18:46:20

Water recycling technologies developed for space are helping a parched American west

SpaceNut · 2022-11-30 20:05:32

The U.S. Marines have developed a water generation system that can grab the liquid life-giving substance from mid-air by the gallons, the Honolulu Star-Advertiser reports.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-01 10:05:43

ForSpaceNut re #342

Thank you for finding and posting this report!

The first thing that jumped out at me was the concern about airborne contamination of the captured water. That would (or could) be a concern for cloud captured water, as would be the case with the fleet of drones envisioned in one of the "cloud" topics.

The Marine Corps is calling this device an Atmospheric Portable-water Sustainment Unit, APSU for short. Combined with what it calls the Lightweight Water Purification System, it essentially grabs the moisture from humid air and converts it to liquid. From there, it purifies the water to ensure it's drinkable, as even airborne water can contain trace amounts of atmospheric chemicals. It's more than just a proof of concept at this point, too.

The article reports that the Marines are using technology developed by:
https://snowbirdwatertechnologies.com/

Apparently the system is a dehumidifier with a water purifier integrated into the package.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-12-01 19:46:45

Toxins and other stuff have, always been a problem that has become and even higher levels of these.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-15 20:48:46

https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-questio … 39204.html

It's time for an update on the Phoenix water situation...

More questions than answers at Colorado River water meetings
FILE - A buoy sits high and dry on cracked earth previously under the waters of Lake Mead at the Lake Mead National Recreation Area near Boulder City, Nev., on June 28, 2022. Living with less water in the U.S. Southwest is the focus for a conference starting Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2022, in Las Vegas, about the drought-stricken and overpromised Colorado River. (AP Photo/John Locher, File)
1/4
Colorado River Users Western Drought
FILE - A buoy sits high and dry on cracked earth previously under the waters of Lake Mead at the Lake Mead National Recreation Area near Boulder City, Nev., on June 28, 2022. Living with less water in the U.S. Southwest is the focus for a conference starting Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2022, in Las Vegas, about the drought-stricken and overpromised Colorado River. (AP Photo/John Locher, File)
ASSOCIATED PRESS
FILE - Water from the Colorado River diverted through the Central Arizona Project fills an irrigation canal on Aug. 18, 2022, in Maricopa, Ariz. Living with less water in the U.S. Southwest is the focus for a conference starting Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2022, in Las Vegas about the drought-stricken and overpromised Colorado River. (AP Photo/Matt York, File)
2/4
Colorado River Users-Western Drought
FILE - Water from the Colorado River diverted through the Central Arizona Project fills an irrigation canal on Aug. 18, 2022, in Maricopa, Ariz. Living with less water in the U.S. Southwest is the focus for a conference starting Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2022, in Las Vegas about the drought-stricken and overpromised Colorado River. (AP Photo/Matt York, File)
ASSOCIATED PRESS
FILE - The Colorado River flows through the Grand Canyon on the Hualapai reservation on Aug. 15, 2022, in northwestern Arizona. Living with less water in the U.S. Southwest is the focus for a conference starting Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2022, in Las Vegas, about the drought-stricken and overpromised Colorado River. (AP Photo/John Locher, File)
3/4
Colorado River Users-Western Drought
FILE - The Colorado River flows through the Grand Canyon on the Hualapai reservation on Aug. 15, 2022, in northwestern Arizona. Living with less water in the U.S. Southwest is the focus for a conference starting Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2022, in Las Vegas, about the drought-stricken and overpromised Colorado River. (AP Photo/John Locher, File)
ASSOCIATED PRESS
FILE - A formerly sunken boat sits upright into the air with its stern stuck in the mud along the shoreline of Lake Mead at the Lake Mead National Recreation Area on June 10, 2022, near Boulder City, Nev. Living with less water in the U.S. Southwest is the focus for a conference starting Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2022, in Las Vegas, about the drought-stricken and overpromised Colorado River. (AP Photo/John Locher, File)
4/4
Colorado River Users-Western Drought
FILE - A formerly sunken boat sits upright into the air with its stern stuck in the mud along the shoreline of Lake Mead at the Lake Mead National Recreation Area on June 10, 2022, near Boulder City, Nev. Living with less water in the U.S. Southwest is the focus for a conference starting Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2022, in Las Vegas, about the drought-stricken and overpromised Colorado River. (AP Photo/John Locher, File)
ASSOCIATED PRESS
FILE - A buoy sits high and dry on cracked earth previously under the waters of Lake Mead at the Lake Mead National Recreation Area near Boulder City, Nev., on June 28, 2022. Living with less water in the U.S. Southwest is the focus for a conference starting Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2022, in Las Vegas, about the drought-stricken and overpromised Colorado River. (AP Photo/John Locher, File)
FILE - Water from the Colorado River diverted through the Central Arizona Project fills an irrigation canal on Aug. 18, 2022, in Maricopa, Ariz. Living with less water in the U.S. Southwest is the focus for a conference starting Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2022, in Las Vegas about the drought-stricken and overpromised Colorado River. (AP Photo/Matt York, File)
FILE - The Colorado River flows through the Grand Canyon on the Hualapai reservation on Aug. 15, 2022, in northwestern Arizona. Living with less water in the U.S. Southwest is the focus for a conference starting Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2022, in Las Vegas, about the drought-stricken and overpromised Colorado River. (AP Photo/John Locher, File)
FILE - A formerly sunken boat sits upright into the air with its stern stuck in the mud along the shoreline of Lake Mead at the Lake Mead National Recreation Area on June 10, 2022, near Boulder City, Nev. Living with less water in the U.S. Southwest is the focus for a conference starting Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2022, in Las Vegas, about the drought-stricken and overpromised Colorado River. (AP Photo/John Locher, File)
KEN RITTER
Thu, December 15, 2022 at 8:44 PM EST
LAS VEGAS (AP) — Key questions resurfaced Thursday at a conference of Colorado River water administrators and users from seven U.S. states, Native American tribes and Mexico who are served by the shrinking river stricken by drought and climate change.
Who will bear the brunt of more water supply cuts, and how quickly?
What target goals need to be met for voluntary cutbacks in water use by the seven states that rely on the river before the federal government steps in?
What about controlling water evaporation once snowmelt from the Rocky Mountains enters the system and begins flowing to Mexico?
“I don’t have answers. I just have questions right now,” Ted Cooke, general manager of the Central Arizona Project, said during a Colorado River Water Users Association panel about the state of the river.
The agency manages canals delivering water to much of Arizona, and was the first to feel the effects last year of drought-forced cuts to water flow from the river.
The Colorado provides drinking water to 40 million people, irrigation for millions of acres of agriculture and hydropower in the U.S. Southwest.
“Collective painful action is necessary now,” Chuck Cullom, executive director of the Upper Colorado River Commission, said during the same panel.
The river serves four headwater states — Colorado, New Mexico, Utah and Wyoming — and three so-called Lower Basin states of California, Arizona and Nevada. Tribes and Mexico also have water entitlements.
Talk at sessions Wednesday and Thursday has focused on cooperation between users to solve shortages. But data showing less water flows into the river than is drawn from it has dominated over the conference. And after more than two decades of drought and climate change, the annual conference at Caesars Palace in Las Vegas has taken on a crisis vibe.
“The alternative to inaction is brutal and entirely obvious,” Cullom said of a domino effect of shortages that would be borne first by entities with junior water rights advancing to those with senior standing. “We agree all states, sectors and tribes must play a role.”
Deadlines about what to do are fast approaching, along with a deadline next Tuesday for public comment on a federal Bureau of Reclamation effort expected to yield a final report by summer about how to save about 15% of river water now distributed to recipients.
David Palumbo, the Bureau of Reclamation deputy commissioner of operations, told the conference panel with Cooke and Cullom Thursday he hoped for answers. Those include assumptions about the amount of water flowing in the river; effects of changing river flows in the Grand Canyon; how officials should administer reductions; and considerations about public health and safety.
Limiting population growth was not discussed as an option. Cooke said market forces, not the government, should dictate who moves where.
“People have the right to make a good choice or a bad choice,” he said, “and that includes moving to a spot that might not have water.”
The bureau controls the flow of the river with waterworks including the nation’s two largest reservoirs, Lake Mead behind Hoover Dam on the Nevada-Arizona state line and Lake Powell formed by the Glen Canyon Dam on the Arizona-Utah line.
Lake Mead was at 100% capacity in mid-1999. Today it is 28% full. Lake Powell, which was last full in June 1980, is at 25%.
Water deliveries were cut last year for the first time to Arizona and Nevada, mostly affecting farmers in Arizona under a 1968 agreement that gave the state junior rights to river water in exchange for U.S. funding to build a 336-mile (540-kilometer) canal to its major cities.
The bureau could impose top-down rules that override shares that states agreed to take in 1922 and subsequent agreements. However, although federal officials are due to speak on Friday — including Camille Touton, bureau commissioner, and two top Interior Department representatives — blockbuster announcements are not expected.
Reclamation officials last June told the seven states they’ll have to cut more, and left it to them to identify ways to cut the 15% next year, or have restrictions imposed on them. The federal government has also allocated billions of dollars to pay farmers to fallow fields and to help cities cut water use.
“We’re using more than we have,” Brenda Burman, former head of the Bureau of Reclamation, said during “Colorado River 101” on Wednesday.
“We could be looking at a lot of cuts. We could be looking at a lot of changes,” she said.
As head of the bureau, Burman had warned the Water Users Association four years ago that drought action was needed. She'll be replacing Cooke, who is retiring, as general manager of the Central Arizona Project.
Becky Mitchell, director of the Colorado Water Conservation Board, expressed frustration Thursday that people don't realize that water is captured in Upper Basin states and then doled out by the bureau in Lower Basin states.
Colorado, New Mexico, Utah and Wyoming "live within the means of the river every day,” she said.
John Entsminger, general manager of the Las Vegas-based Southern Nevada Water Authority, compared dealing with the effects of drought on the Colorado River to a national emergency like a hurricane in Florida, and said the federal government could invest national emergency funds.
Entsminger also said it's time to chart the amount of water lost to evaporation when usage and allocations are considered.
“We have not accounted for the amount of water we are losing from the system,” he said. “Call it evaporation, system losses, call it strawberry shortcake for all we care. Do the math and the analysis.”
___
Associated Press journalist Peter Prengaman in Las Vegas contributed to this report.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-21 18:36:10

Here is an update from our contact in Phoenix...

Today was not a newsworthy day in the minds of reporters but a small blurb appeared on TV. It seem that Ducey and his compadres are now trying to build a large desalination plant in Puerto Penasco (Rocky Point) to the U.S. border and beyond to pipeline water to the CAP Canal for distribution. They want Israel to be a partner, and build the plant, and sell the water to Arizona. The route is exactly what we talked about, but they want to go further to Gila Bend or about 200 miles of pipeline to the CAP. First, you know the Israelis will talk to California as well in more distribution of water, thereby, comingling the water with California. Second, there would be no safeguards to Arizona should breakdowns occur over a much larger distribution. You are at the complete mercy of IDE, the Israel desalination company involved. Third, there is no control by the U.S. or Arizona managing its present and future destinies. The real winner here is Israel. Here is the link to a Tucson newspaper today. Arizona Water Distribution Courtesy of Israel
Ducey wants to rush through Arizona legislature for approval. This may be a good time to write to both Hobbs and Sarah Porter of the Kyl Center, whom we wrote to last year. Let me know what you think.

My reaction was complex and I will not try to repeat it here. I'd be interested in any thoughts our current active members may have.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-22 18:33:15

Here is an update from a citizen of Arizona ...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/arizonas-wat … 46096.html

This seems (to me at least) to be a reasonably balanced view of the situation in Arizona.

Arizona's water crisis is manageable – if we actually do these 3 things
Grady Gammage, Jr.
Thu, December 22, 2022 at 8:00 AM EST
Those of us who talk about Arizona’s water situation often point out that the challenge we face is less daunting than other dilemmas of climate change like sea level rise or an increasing frequency of hurricanes. A dramatic decline in water resources, we say, is manageable, and Arizona has a strong history of water management.
But there’s a catch: We have to actually manage it.
There are a lot of seemingly disconnected ideas floating around. It is important to fit these ideas into a context, and to give Arizonans a way to talk about how we will manage our way through.
Here are some thoughts on such a framework.
Conservation is a small yet critical need
We cannot conserve our way out of the looming shortages. Reducing turf, limiting lot sizes and increasing use of effluent are all good and important things. The reality is we could shut off all municipal use and not solve the problem.
Conservation is an important piece of reminding everyone how critical water is, and of making a statement that we are serious and we are all in this together. Conservation would involve some mandates (like prohibiting winter overseeding); incentives (paying to remove turf) and a lot of education.
As the Colorado River shrinks:Arizona looks at water recycling, desalination
The best way to achieve conservation is to create targets for municipal reductions in per-capita consumption. The best way of reaching those targets is to carefully raise water prices on amounts beyond a minimum quantity per household.
This represents action we can take immediately.
Shift water from agriculture to urban use
Arizona must incentivize farmers to increase efficiency and be more flexible in crop choices.
Arizona must incentivize farmers to increase efficiency and be more flexible in crop choices.
The biggest water use in Arizona by far is irrigated agriculture. Encouraging farming was the goal of public policy to settle the West. That worked, but today the policy should be to first preserve western economies and urban growth.
Agriculture does not need to disappear. But it needs to dramatically curtail use when there is not enough water to go around.
We must compensate farmers for such changes, and incentivize them to increase efficiency and be more flexible in crop choices. Farmers in Yuma have offered such a proposal, which can become the basis for negotiation. This should be the primary use of state dollars through the newly enhanced Water Infrastructure Financing Authority (WIFA). The Legislature put a billion dollars into WIFA in 2022. A good start, but there needs to be an ongoing revenue stream for these purposes.
Just as an example, a $500 surcharge per acre foot of municipal water use in Maricopa County would raise about half a billion dollars every year. That amounts to $.0015 per gallon. Carefully shifting water from farming to urban use can get us through the next 30-40 years.
Invest in new, long-term water sources
It is important to start working now on solutions in the distant horizon. This likely means ocean desalinization, but there may be other alternatives. What is important is that a plan for 50-plus years into the future begins to unfold.
The price tag will be high. The recent Build Back Better bill has about $4 billion earmarked for Western water projects. This is great, and we should thank our congressional delegation.
Federal participation in dealing with the cost of natural disasters is a bedrock purpose of the national government. It is a way of spreading the risk of hurricanes, floods and fires over a larger revenue base. It is also a way of protecting interstate commerce. New York City alone got $4 billion in federal money after “Superstorm” Sandy.
The federal government has averaged more than $30 billion per year in hurricane relief since 2000. Drought and aridification in the West are the same sort of challenge.
The Colorado River basin states should band together to make this point in Washington. Federal reclamation policy settled the West. That policy is now needed to sustain what reclamation built.
Confronting the challenge of a drying climate at different scales and in different time frames will help Arizona reassert its storied history of leadership in water management.
Grady Gammage, Jr. is a practicing lawyer and author. Reach him at ggammage@gblaw.com.
This article originally appeared on Arizona Republic: Arizona can handle a major water supply cut - if it does this

It seems to me that Arizona (and other Western states) are going to be showing the way for Mars settlers.

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SpaceNut · 2022-12-23 00:02:43

Arizona Considers Water Pipeline From Mexico to Combat Drought

Arizona’s Water Infrastructure Finance Authority passed a non-binding resolution this week in support of a large desalination plant in Mexico’s Sea of Cortez, Arizona Central reported. The idea was initially pitched to the state board by Israeli desalination specialists from IDE Technologies, who claimed that a desalination plant could replace water that flows from the Colorado River through the Central Arizona Project canal. The project would focus on getting water to Pinal, Pima, and Maricopa counties.
IDE representatives plan on submitting an official proposal this week for environmental review. To move forward, the plan will need approval from Mexican officials as well, according to Arizona Central, and IDE said that it had discussed a potential plan with the governor of Sonora, a state in Northern Mexico. According to the IDE representatives, if their proposal passes environmental review and permits are granted, the project could begin producing water by 2027.
The Sea of Cortez is in the Gulf of California, nestled between Baja California and the Mexican state of Sonora, which is right under Arizona. This makes it an ideal location for a desalination plant. Communities in Mexico and the U.S. could both draw water from the project if it is approved. Once the sea water is desalinated, it will travel from Mexico to Arizona through a series of pipelines. The freshwater would flow into the U.S. in the Organ Pipe National Monument and then follow State Route 85 and into Maricopa County, according to Arizona Central. The water would also flow to the city of Buckeye and into two new reservoirs in White Tank Mountains Regional Park. Past that point, the freshwater would go into the Central Arizona Project’s canal system, which provides water to 5 million people. Cities like Tucson and Phoenix would have access to the water from there.
IDE representatives envisioned a desalination plant in Sonora that would cost more than $5 billion to construct. Once completed, it would supply 300,000 acre-feet, which they say would be enough for more than a million households in Arizona. But this would cost $2,500 per acre-foot (an acre-foot is over 325,000 gallons of water). If that water is mixed with other sources, officials predict it will only raise homeowners water bills a few dollars a month. The plant could be scaled up to provide up to 1 million acre-feet. IDE would finance the construction, but Arizona officials would have to commit to a 100-year purchasing agreement, Arizona Central reported.
Some of the board members worried that the plans were being pushed forward too quickly. But boardmember Andy Tobin worried about acting too slowly. “We’ve got folks running out of water,” he said, according to Arizona Central.
Tobin is right: Many communities around the state are in desperate need of water solutions. Some people in the state may run out of water by the new year. Rio Verde Foothills, an unincorporated community in Maricopa County, doesn’t have its own water system. Residents rely on water trucked in from Scottsdale. But late last year, Scottsdale announced that it would cease hauling water there by the beginning of 2023.
Nearby California has turned to desalination options as well. This October, the California Coastal Commission approved a $140 million desalination plant suggested for South Orange County at Doheny State Beach. Once it’s up and running, the plant will be able to draw up to 5 million gallons of water a day and provide water for more than 30,000 people, according to NBC Los Angeles.

tahanson43206 · 2022-12-23 14:48:26

Here's another viewpoint, looking at the Israeli proposal to solve the squabbling in the US, by building a desalination plant in Mexico and offering fresh water to the US as a customer. Apparently the Israeli's would fund the entire project, in return for a 100 year water purchase agreement.

Our Phoenix contact is not ready to participate in the decision making process, but I'll forward any news if he decides to do so.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/arizona-mull … 16429.html

The Hill
Arizona mulls piping in water from Mexico as Colorado River continues decline
Rafael Bernal
Fri, December 23, 2022 at 10:45 AM EST
Arizona’s top water authority is mulling a plan to pump water from a desalination plant by the Sea of Cortez, in a bid to lessen the state’s reliance on the Colorado River.
The plan, pitched by Israeli water treatment company IDE Technologies, would involve a binational effort led by Arizona and the Mexican state of Sonora to build the desalination plant and canals to pump water into Arizona and two Sonoran cities.
Arizona’s Water Infrastructure Finance Authority this week resolved to move ahead with the nascent plan, which still has to clear regulatory hurdles at the state, local and federal levels in both Mexico and the United States.
If constructed, the desalination plant would be placed on the Sea of Cortez coast near Puerto Peñasco, a resort town on the Sonoran panhandle that’s long attracted Arizonan tourism.
The main canal from the plant would shoot north through Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument toward Arizona’s main population center surrounding Phoenix, according to a report by AZ Central.
A secondary route would pump water south from the plant to Hermosillo, Sonora’s capital, and a third canal or pipeline stemming from the main line would send water to the border city of Nogales, Sonora.
The plan would supply up to 1 million acre feet of water for purchase to Arizona, according to the IDE pitch. One acre foot is roughly the amount of water necessary to provide water to two households for one year.
Arizona’s fast-growing population has contributed to water shortages in the Southwest, as the overtaxed Colorado River struggles to supply its seven basin states and Mexico.
The Colorado River stopped reaching the ocean regularly in the 1960s, after completion of the Glen Canyon Dam. In the spring of 2014, U.S. and Mexican authorities released a “pulse flow” of water due to earthquake damage to a Mexican irrigation system, allowing the river to reach its natural destination for a few weeks.
But climate change and population growth have increased pressure on the river, forcing Southwestern states to look for other sources of water.
Still, the desalination project could face tough regulatory hurdles, in part because of its environmental impact.
Building through the Organ Pipe National Monument is one challenge, as is the issue of disposing of the concentrated brine that’s a natural byproduct of desalination.
And according to the AZ Central report, the project could face political headwinds, as it competes with other conservation and infrastructure projects for a $1.4 billion tranche set aside for the water crisis by outgoing Gov. Doug Ducey.
While Arizona’s water options are limited, political opposition to a desalination project could also be flamed by the high relative cost of desalinated seawater.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-12-26 10:47:39

Mars Relevance .... the ongoing saga of decreasing Colorado River water supply is forcing millions of people in the US to contemplate conditions that will be normal on Mars.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/no-more-band … 50280.html

These folks most certainly do NOT possess an abundance mind set.

AZCentral | The Arizona Republic
No more Band-Aids: How to make the Colorado River sustainable for the long term
Margaret Garcia and Elizabeth Koebele
Mon, December 26, 2022 at 8:00 AM EST
The Colorado River Basin is in the midst of a sustainability crisis.
Climate change and severe drought, coupled with historic overallocation of the river, have caused water users to rapidly drain the system’s major reservoirs to their lowest levels since construction.
Prior water management actions, such as urban water conservation, infrastructure efficiency investments, and water delivery reductions, have bought Colorado River water users time. But that time is now running out. Some water users are already experiencing dire effects of this crisis, while others prepare for cuts looming on the horizon.
Colorado River Basin policymakers stand at a critical juncture. They have an opportunity to avert more severe impacts of the crisis by implementing policy and management changes that go beyond the relatively incremental steps taken thus far.
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How do we find long-term sustainability?
However, negotiating such major changes is extremely challenging, especially given the basin’s complex legal structure of water rights, its users’ diverse demands and uncertainty around how much water will be available in the future.
This raises the question: How can basin policymakers create transformational change that advances the long-term sustainability of the Colorado River amid this crisis?
What lurks in Lake Mead?Bodies and boats surface as water levels decline
Drawing on our experience studying water management transitions through the lenses of water resource engineering and collaborative policymaking, we offer three substantive and procedural suggestions that can help Colorado River Basin policymakers realize transformational change.
1. Move away from a fixed quantity of water
A buoy sits high and dry on cracked earth previously under the waters of Lake Mead at the Lake Mead National Recreation Area near Boulder City, Nev., on June 28, 2022. Living with less water in the U.S. Southwest is the focus for a conference starting Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2022, in Las Vegas, about the drought-stricken and overpromised Colorado River.
A buoy sits high and dry on cracked earth previously under the waters of Lake Mead at the Lake Mead National Recreation Area near Boulder City, Nev., on June 28, 2022. Living with less water in the U.S. Southwest is the focus for a conference starting Wednesday, Dec. 14, 2022, in Las Vegas, about the drought-stricken and overpromised Colorado River.
First, policymakers must stabilize the Colorado River system, meaning that water use does not exceed water availability. However, because streamflow is expected to continue to decline as temperatures rise, any stabilization solution must be adaptable to changes in water availability as they occur.
One way to achieve this is to change the indicators of system-wide water availability that trigger water management actions. Basin managers currently use slow-responding reservoir levels (which may also be muddled by complex water accounting) for this purpose. A more responsive indicator, such as a 5-year rolling average of inflow, could be used in the short term to minimize reliance on dwindling storage.
In the longer term, Basin managers could also consider an adaptive approach used in other areas of the West that converts fixed-quantity water rights to shares of the total quantity of available water, with the allocation of shares tailored to account for the existing water rights priority structure. The total quantity of available water could be adjusted to slowly refill reservoirs, serving to mitigate large water cuts in dry years. This additional step would help the system move beyond stabilization and into longer-term recovery.
2. Prioritize ideas to reduce uncertainty
Moving to the type of management regime described above will likely mean painful cuts for water users throughout the Colorado River Basin in the coming years. However, it could create more predictability and reliability in the long term – values that Basin managers have previously signaled agreement around.
Managing for a smaller known quantity of water is often easier than managing for the unknown. Achieving this, however, requires that all water users, including historically marginalized tribes and environmental groups, have an equitable seat at the negotiating table in order to reduce uncertainty about future water uses and needs.
3. Think beyond 'how to share water cuts'
Finally, policymakers must expand their conception of “water sustainability” in the Colorado River Basin. For thriving communities and economies, water is a means, not an end. Beyond water use directly for human, public and ecological health, water enables food production and energy generation.
Broadening our thinking from “how to share water reductions” to “how to maintain regional food and energy security” opens new opportunities for negotiation and collaboration beyond the traditional “zero-sum” mentality.
These could include investing recently allocated federal funds for drought mitigation in improving agricultural water use efficiency, supporting the clean energy transition and conserving ecosystems to achieve more holistic sustainability goals, rather than temporarily buying more time through short-term conservation measures.
Transforming Colorado River Basin management to mitigate the current water crisis and realize long-term water sustainability requires changing not only policies but also the way we think about water use and needs.
The three suggestions presented above can help policymakers to meet this moment of historic challenge and historic opportunity by moving beyond incremental change and fostering a new era of solutions for the Colorado River.
Margaret Garcia, Ph.D, is an assistant professor in the School of Sustainable Engineering and the Built Environment at Arizona State University. Elizabeth A. Koebele, Ph.D., is an associate professor of political science at the University of Nevada, Reno, where she researches the use and implications of collaborative approaches to governing water resources. Reach them at m.garcia@asu.edu and ekoebele@unr.edu.
This article originally appeared on Arizona Republic: How to make the Colorado River sustainable for the long term

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Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

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