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#1 2021-12-15 07:58:16

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,754

Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

In the Nuclear Power is Safe topic, forum members have been discussing the opportunity to use nuclear fission power to provide fresh water to the City of Phoenix, Arizona, by drawing sea water from the Sea of Cortez (with the cooperation and ongoing support of Mexico).

This topic is offered to note the similarity of the problem of delivering reliable supplies of fresh/potable water to residents of a large city on Mars, and the challenge of delivering fresh/potable water to the residents of Phoenix, Arizona in the US.

To lead off this topic, here is a report from a local newspaper about the growth of unregulated subdivisions that are collectively described as drawing water through multiple straws from a non-renewable resource.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/hundreds-hom … 38404.html

Let this be a warning for the rest of us

Let that be a warning for the rest of us. No one wins when we build homes without long-term water supplies.

Sure, it might allow growth for the moment. But it’s going to create a lasting headache – especially as Colorado River water dwindles and more straws begin sucking water from the ground.

It’s time to change the definition of “subdivision” so we stop building homes without access to a long-term water supply. Or at least find the authority and the chutzpah to turn down lot splits without these supplies.

And that’s just the first step, considering that there are other groundwater problems in the Phoenix AMA besides a few hundred homes that could eventually end up abandoned if they go dry.

I don’t have enough room in this piece to detail all of them, but it should be a major red flag that the state water department has reportedly halted future development in two West Valley subdivisions because a forthcoming groundwater model revision suggests there may not be adequate water for expansion.

A reckoning is coming for how we grow in the state’s most populous county. Now is not the time to stick our heads in the sand.

Edit 2021/12/27: https://www.yahoo.com/news/arizona-lawm … 08913.html

The article at the link above is about loans (bonds) made out of state an agency of the Arizona state government.  The local newspaper caught the behavior, and three lawmakers are quoted as being interested in changing the law to keep those funds in-state.

Edit 2021/12/27: https://www.yahoo.com/news/arizonas-gov … 25319.html

The article at the link above is about the importance of issues to voters.

(th)

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#2 2021-12-15 08:13:23

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,754

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

It has been proposed (via NewMars forum discussion) to prepare and deliver enough fresh water to meet the needs of the City of Phoenix, Arizona, using nuclear fission power.

In discussion with a resident of Arizona, the scope of the proposal increased, to include agricultural regions in the Southern part of the State.

It turns out that a serious multi-year, bi-lateral study was performed in recent times, to examine the feasibility of building traditional desalination facilities to pull sea water from the Sea of Cortez.  While the project did not move beyond discussion on the US side, the Mexican government proceeded with it's plans to build one or more desalination plants, and one such plant is reported to be nearing completion.   The scale of water delivery is reported to be modest.  According to reports I have seen (subject to verification of course) output will be 200 liters per second.

This plant (again according to reports, and subject to verification) is designed to use fossil fuel for power, and to deliver brine back to the Sea of Cortez.

The alternative proposed by NewMars forum members in the Nuclear is Safe topic, is to use nuclear fission power, and to consume ALL the material found in sea water from the Sea of Cortez, and to deliver NOTHING but agricultural grade fresh water back to the State of Sonora, at the rate of 10% of the raw material delivered to the US.

The proposal is to create a profit oriented facility that exists as a public/private partnership, with every citizen of Arizona automatically enrolled as a Common Share Holder at the rate of one share per citizen. 

The costs of the facility and it's operation are to be recovered through sale of the products generated by separation and refinement of the materials arriving in the US from the Sea of Cortez.

A major category of valuable material is Deuterium, which will eventually become the equivalent of "coal/oil/gas" fossil fuel in the chemical age.

Sodium is to be separated from Chlorine, and the refined products sold on the open market at competitive but reasonable rates.

All other minerals and substances contained in sea water from the Sea of Cortez are to be collected for eventual sale at competitive but reasonable rates.

Meanwhile, the flow of sea water from the Pacific Ocean will bring fish and other income opportunities for residents of Mexico.

To repeat for emphasis, NO brine will be returned to the Sea of Cortez in this proposal.

SearchTerm:Cortez Sea of
SearchTerm:Phoenix Arizona fresh water supply for
SearchTerm:Arizona fresh water supply for
SearchTerm:Mexico partner in plan to pull sea water from Sea of Cortez

(th)

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#3 2021-12-15 08:54:04

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,352

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

Atmospheric condensers might be an option for places far from any body of water.  Admittedly, this is quite an energy intensive way of harvesting water.  You basically cool incoming air beneath freezing and allow ice to condense on a set of plates.  It would work in conjunction with air conditioning (which requires cold air) and hot water heating, since the heat pump has to reject heat as well.  As you are already using electricity for both things, introducing water harvesting into the device, may turn out to be a minor additional energy burden.  You could use nuclear power as the electricity source.  It is also an activity that can make use of solar power on site without need for storage.  For large buildings, the harvested water might substitute the water needed for the toilet system, say.

Another option: most places get seasonal rainfall.  You could examine options for storing water that is available in excess for short periods each year.

These are all things to explore before commiting to an expensive desalination project.  And if desalination does end up being used, it makes it a more affordable part of the solution.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-15 09:00:50)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#4 2021-12-15 11:31:52

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,754

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

For Calliban re #3

It is ** really ** encouraging to find your addition to this topic!  Thanks for beginning the thought process that (I am hoping) will ultimately lead to a solution to replace the Colorado River, the several smaller rivers that feed Phoenix, and the entire set of underground aquifers that are being depleted rapidly by the water needs of the large and growing population of the American Southwest.

As a reminder, this entire sequence of initiatives began in ** your ** Nuclear Power is Safe topic, where participants were inspired by your steadfast support of and faith in nuclear fission power.

The technology you've described in Post #3 seems (as I understand it anyway) to be eminently feasible for a single household, with the caveat that the household cannot depend upon water molecules to be present in the atmosphere that reaches the cooling fins.

The folks living in Arizona have been dealing with the challenge of fresh water supply for decades, and probably for centuries.

I am aware of a 743 page document that reports on a multi-year study carried out by a bi-national team of researchers and interested parties, to examine the needs of the Arizona region for supply of fresh water, and examination of desalination of water from the Sea of Cortez as a possible contributor to a solution.

While the US side of the study put the work on a shelf (and on the Internet, which is not the same thing, of course), the Mexican side decided to proceed with development of two small scale traditional desalination plants.  One of those is due to come online shortly, with a projected output of 200 liters of potable water per second, which seems to me like a good demonstration but not particularly helpful to meet the needs for fresh water of the population of the country.

The present (Natural) system of fresh water supply depends upon:

1) evaporation of sea water by solar radiation
2) movement of evaporated water molecules via winds from the equator towards the poles, against gravity
3) natural precipitation of fresh water carried by winds is the mechanism by which rivers accumulate content
4) gravity carries the fresh water collected by rivers toward the sea
5) humans pull fresh water out of the river(s) to take care of basic needs, including agriculture
6) in recent years, the supply of fresh water has not met the needs of the population in the American Southwest
7) as you can surely imagine, residents in those areas have done everything humanly possible to preserve what little water they have
8) in the end, water rationing has denied thousands of acre feet of water to large swaths of the region

While extracting water from the atmosphere using cooling coils might work for one family, whatever water is extracted is denied to others who would have benefited if that water had found it's way to a river in the natural course of precipitation.

***
I am looking forward to seeing other creative and equally helpful ideas to replace the Colorado River supply, the existing underground aquifer water supply, and such ancillary sources of fresh water as may exist today but cannot be expected to continue.

This topic is dedicated to the proposition that nuclear fission power can meet all current needs, and that nuclear fusion power can pick up the load when it comes online.

Because this ** is ** the NewMars forum, I will add that every technology developed on Earth to provide fresh water to a population the size of Phoenix, Arizona will have immediate application for meeting the needs of a large city population on Mars.

(th)

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#5 2021-12-15 20:33:07

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

My suggestion is to create better collection systems for the monsoon like rains that its getting and learn how to redirect that water rather than into rivers into man made ponds, lake reservoirs or large wells.

Redirecting city roof top water into a collection system that does not send it to waterways is also another. Centuries ago roof runoff was collected in rain barrels at each homestead.

The likelihood of access to the open sea water is going to be expensive whether Mexico allows a pipeline or over land through California are both problematic.

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#6 2021-12-16 07:37:39

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,754

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

For SpaceNut re #5

This topic is about a reliable supply of fresh water to the citizens of Phoenix in particular in the people of Arizona in general.

There are no monsoon rains happening in Arizona.  Such rains ** are ** happening in other parts of the world.

Rain is NOT a reliable source of water.  Arizona does receive ** some ** rain, and it does receive ** some ** snow.

The goal of this topic is to arrive at a self-funding reliable supply of potable water for Phoenix in particular, and for all of Arizona in general.

However, your suggestion of collecting rain leads naturally to the question of how much rain actually falls at Pheonix:

How much rain has Phoenix had 2020?
Yearly Rainfall for Pepper Ridge # 1 North Valley Phoenix
YEAR
YEARLY TOTAL
2018 11.55
2019 11.48
2020 5.86
2021 11.10
Yearly Rainfall Page - Pepper Ridge Weather Station Phoenix Az
www.pepperridgenorthvalley.com › rainfall

For comparison, here are statistics for Miami, Florida:

How much rain has Miami had this year?
Rain
Days Year Inches
150 days with rain 2020 86.6
155 2019 67.2
143 2018 61.5
130 2017 83.2
Miami FL Recent Annual Temperatures, Rainfall - Current Results
www.currentresults.com › recent-annual-miami-temperature-precipitation

Since this topic is set up to consider a solution for Phoenix as a model for Mars, it is worth pointing out that there are zero rain days on Mars.

***
The observation of collecting roof drain off is interesting and worth remembering.  The farm house where my family set up shop when I was quite young had such a rain storage system.  My recollection is that the water repository was called a "cistern".  I also recall that the water was not trusted, because it contained whatever was ON the roof when rain fell, and some of that material was NOT suitable for ingestion by humans.  A system of water collection for modern times might work if the water collection surface deployed when rain falls is sterile, and the water is directed into sterile containers.

***
However, your closing line is the one that I find most interesting for the purposes of this topic.  Because of the risk of sabotage/terrorism, a water supply must be designed to it is not an easy target for introduction of poisons or for destruction with a small  chemical explosive.

The best defense (that I can think of anyway) is to insure the supply line is some distance underground.

When you say access is going to be expensive, your terms are not clear.

The water is free.  If it comes from Mexico, it has been proposed to return 10% of whatever is provided by Mexico to the US in the form of potable water.

So far everything is free.  The US is receiving 90% of a supply in return for delivery of 10% to Mexico.

Please develop and extend your thinking about "expense".

(th)

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#7 2021-12-16 08:06:00

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,754

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

The article at the link below is about unregulated drawing of groundwater from aquifers under Scottsdale, near Phoenix, Arizona.

The problem reported is a quirk in real estate law that (apparently) allows unregulated drawing of ground water if a subdivision is under a certain size.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/hundreds-hom … 38404.html

Let this be a warning for the rest of us

Let that be a warning for the rest of us. No one wins when we build homes without long-term water supplies.

Sure, it might allow growth for the moment. But it’s going to create a lasting headache – especially as Colorado River water dwindles and more straws begin sucking water from the ground.

It’s time to change the definition of “subdivision” so we stop building homes without access to a long-term water supply. Or at least find the authority and the chutzpah to turn down lot splits without these supplies.

And that’s just the first step, considering that there are other groundwater problems in the Phoenix AMA besides a few hundred homes that could eventually end up abandoned if they go dry.

I don’t have enough room in this piece to detail all of them, but it should be a major red flag that the state water department has reportedly halted future development in two West Valley subdivisions because a forthcoming groundwater model revision suggests there may not be adequate water for expansion.

A reckoning is coming for how we grow in the state’s most populous county. Now is not the time to stick our heads in the sand.

The purpose of this topic is to address the need for a "long-term water supply".

It is apparent that rain (natural flows of water from the oceans via random winds) is not a reliable source of water.

It is also apparent that stored rain (water delivered by random winds and allowed to flow into the ground over millions of years), is not a reliable long-term source of water.

(th)

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#8 2021-12-16 22:10:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

https://www.governing.com/next/pima-cou … tion-plant
August 19, 2021

The proposed $4.1 billion desalination project would add as much as $90 to the typical Tucson-area monthly water bill,


https://deeply.thenewhumanitarian.org/w … ter-supply
Arizona sits atop an estimated 600 million acre-feet of brackish water.

More recently, an international water treaty update with Mexico is another factor in the movement toward desalinated water in Arizona.
Down the coast, the Claude “Bud” Lewis Carlsbad Desalination Plant cost $1 billion to build by the time it came online in 2015. It draws around 36 megawatts from a neighboring power plant to produce about 10 percent of the potable water used by the 3.1 million people of San Diego County.


https://www.voiceofsandiego.org/topics/ … to-mexico/

That means working with Mexico on critical infrastructure — infrastructure that isn’t a wall to keep the countries apart but rather pipelines or deals that would bind them closer together.

That stands in contrast not only to recent threats by President Donald Trump to shut down the border but some existing water projects. The haughtily named All-American Canal, for instance, was designed to deliver water from the Colorado River to Imperial without crossing into Mexico.

https://azclimate.asu.edu/monsoon/
Monsoon runs from June 15 to Sept. 30.

Arizona's monsoon is the northern extent of the North American Monsoon, which begins in early June in central and southern Mexico. The monsoon is a season, during which the dry westerly winds that persist through fall, winter and spring shift to moist southerly winds, bringing thunderstorm activity into Arizona.

Opinion: Piping floodwater from the Mississippi River is a popular idea, but it's probably just a pipe dream for Arizona. There are better ways to get water.

It argues that if we can build pipelines to move oil, we should be able to capture and pipe enough floodwater from the Mississippi, the Missouri, the Snake or (insert your river here) to resolve shortages on the Colorado River.

Arizona Legislature proposes pumping Mississippi River water to help with drought

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#9 2021-12-17 07:12:47

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,754

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

For SpaceNut re #8

Thank you for this robust contribution to the topic!

SearchTerm:Tuscon desalination proposal
SearchTerm:Monsoon rains to Arizona
SearchTerm:Mississippi river water considered for Arizona

The Tuscon proposal is particularly interesting! Without having seen it, I surmise it is taking in brackish ground water and using fossil fuel.

Meanwhile, the local site manager for the Phoenix Water initiative is traveling to California (on personal business). There is a possibility of a visit to a desalination plant, but that will depend upon Covid restrictions.

The Mars Society scenario for preparing large amounts of fresh water for (future) Mars residents is remarkably similar to the proposal under consideration for the Phoenix replacement system.  All power would be from nuclear fission initially, and then from fusion when it becomes practical.  ** All ** molecules would be processed in order to secure the maximum possible value from each.  No molecules would be discarded as waste.

These characteristics make the proposal for Arizona distinct from all the competition.

Even water imported from the Mississippi cannot be used untreated, except for the most forgiving of applications.

One thing Mississippi water has that sea water does not, is an overburden of topsoil from the upper United States.

Again, thanks for a solid contribution to this topic!

(th)

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#10 2021-12-17 19:35:22

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,754

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

For SpaceNut re Tuscon proposal report!

(TNS) — Think of it as a conversation piece.

That's how a Pima County, Ariz., official, Eric Wieduwilt, describes a new proposal for a $4.1 billion desalination project that would start with a plant to remove salt from seawater in the Sea of Cortez in Sonora. Then, the water would be shipped 196 miles by underground pipeline to the Tucson area, says a county study of the project.

The cost could add up to $60 to $90 per month to the typical Tucson-area homeowner's water bill, said the County Regional Wastewater Reclamation Department's study.

I just opened the link you  provided, and ** two ** of the reported considerations exactly match the developing Phoenix proposal.

1) Pull water from Sea of Cortez
2) Ship it via underground pipeline

The latter point is important because a dependency upon a supply of water from outside the United States means the facility will be subject to terrorism threats. If we (the US) proceed with this plan, it will require an increased level of trust between the Nations.

Alternatives are to pull sea water from the Pacific, via a pipeline just North of the border between the US and Mexico, or a longer one that would pull water from the Gulf of Mexico, and travel underground across Texas and New Mexico.

*** Edit a bit later ...

There is a wrinkle to the Tuscon proposal that differs marketly from the Phoenix one:

The Tuscon proposal would remove salt in Mexico.

The Phoenix proposal would not only NOT perform operations in Mexico, but it would deliberately NOT put salt back into the Sea of Cortez.

Instead, the Phoenix proposal would treat salt in the intake flow as a valuable resource to be upgraded to saleable products (Sodium and Chlorine).

Pima County Considers Building Costly Desalination Plant
The proposed $4.1 billion desalination project would add as much as $90 to the typical Tucson-area monthly water bill, but if the region grows as predicted, it may be necessary. Many expect it could take decades to get approval.
August 19, 2021 • Tony Davis, The Arizona Daily Star
(TNS) — Think of it as a conversation piece.

That's how a Pima County, Ariz., official, Eric Wieduwilt, describes a new proposal for a $4.1 billion desalination project that would start with a plant to remove salt from seawater in the Sea of Cortez in Sonora. Then, the water would be shipped 196 miles by underground pipeline to the Tucson area, says a county study of the project.

The cost could add up to $60 to $90 per month to the typical Tucson-area homeowner's water bill, said the County Regional Wastewater Reclamation Department's study.

(th)

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#11 2021-12-17 19:50:27

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

Sure we can get water from snow melt before its gotten swept away from the large rivers as well in the spring from the northern parts of the state but it seems that all states are receive less snow that a decade ago..

https://www.weather.gov/arx/why_snowratios

Commonly, the percentage of water to snow is called the "snow ratio". An old rule of thumb was that for every 10 inches of snow, there would be 1 inch of water (10:1). However, this is far from the norm, and recent studies indicate that a 12:1 ratio might be more representative (on average) for the Upper Midwest.

The pipelines are also a treaty issue for the US not just Arizona with California pipelines being only regulations and maintenance once we get land use permits. Much like everything else its either eminent domain or getting an approved EPA path. Its not going to be cheap.

On Mars and the ISS we recover water from the waste stream and after processing its made ready for use with the sludge being disposed of or made into fertilizer.

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#12 2021-12-18 11:47:29

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,754

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

For SpaceNut re discovery of article about Tuscon Desalination proposal!

I've now had time to read the entire article carefully, and I am even more appreciative of your discovery and posting of this important development.

The Tuscon folks have explored some of the ground (literally and figuratively) that the Phoenix project must cover.

Such a project would best be implemented in partnership with the State of Arizona, the CAP and, most importantly, water users including farmers, tribes and municipalities that currently rely on "the existing, built infrastructure of the Central Arizona Project," Tucson Water added in a statement. It noted that desalination is also being evaluated by many Arizona water providers.

For those who may be interested in the article, the link SpaceNut found is:
https://www.governing.com/next/pima-cou … tion-plant

(th)

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#13 2021-12-18 21:32:48

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,754

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

As a follow up to the link discovered by SpaceNut, here is another closely related link...

https://tucson.com/news/local/once-agai … ted-bottom

The theme of the article is the ambition by some in the Arizona legislature to consider a 1000 mile pipeline to pull water from the Mississippi River.  However, the article covers a range of thinking about where Arizona is going to get water as it faces the grim fact of declining natural supply, and dwindling underground reservoirs.

But so far, the debate has been dominated by two, highly expensive and highly controversial ideas: Importing water via pipeline from the Mississippi or Missouri rivers; or building a desalination plant on the Gulf of California in collaboration with Mexico, or on the Pacific Coast in collaboration with California.
The package would establish a seven-member Drought Mitigation Board, to select which projects get funding, without full legislative approval.
Six members, spread among different counties, would be appointed to five-year terms by the governor and legislative leaders. They’d be required to have “a background in water issues.” The Arizona Department of Water Resources director would be chairman.

(th)

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#14 2021-12-18 22:24:51

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

https://www.phoenix.gov/waterservices/r … supply-q-a
Does Phoenix have a drought response plan?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_River_Project

https://www.phoenix.gov/waterservices/r … /yourwater

https://e360.yale.edu/features/how-phoe … iver-water
In Era of Drought, Phoenix Prepares for a Future Without Colorado River Water

https://asu.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webapp … b0e1c153e0
Groundwater Level Changes in Arizona Sub-basins

This is another plausible solution
Mexicans create wetlands to ease drought, ensure adequate supply of water

The Mexicali Valley wetland project involves what amounts to recycling the residual water from this city on the border with the United States to enable some 30,000 farmers to irrigate their crops.

One farmer's seaweed discovery could change the world

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#15 2021-12-19 07:30:03

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,754

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

For SpaceNut re #14

Thank you for finding all these additional links to discussion and reporting about the challenge of supplying sufficient fresh water to the people of Arizona, and as your post points out, to the people of Mexico as well.

The thought process unfolding in Arizona is very similar to the one that will be required for residents of Mars.   The supply of fresh water will be a constant concern, and the need for adequate energy to process the raw material is apparent. 

The Phoenix Team has an advantage none of the other teams have ... a connection to the Mars Society.  The Mars Society is aiming to show ways to provide first tier living conditions for millions of people living on Mars.  The conditions to be endured are far more severe than those faced by the residents of Arizona, so thinking has to be at a higher level to begin with.  On the ** other ** hand, solutions worked out for Arizona in coming years can and should feed directly into planning for large scale Mars settlement.

(th)

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#16 2021-12-19 10:31:38

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

iceberg.jpeg

There was another idea  similar to mars glacier processing floated a decade ago and that was to harvest icebergs or in this case the arctic ice shelf's which are cracking and would other wise melt into the ocean.

6/90
The Iceberg Cometh : Drought: Towing a chunk of glacier into the harbor is the 5th of 8 water shortage solutions the council plans to look at in a $175,000 study.

Towing an iceberg from Antarctica isn’t a new idea. It was proposed 70 years ago by a maverick California scientist at Scripps.

One problem with the idea is that to make any dent in a large city’s water supply, the iceberg will have to be big. Very big.

“To make it economically feasible,” Sloane tells Bloomberg. the iceberg would measure about 1,000 meters (3,281 feet) long, 500 meters wide, and 250 meters deep, and weigh 125 million tons. “That would supply about 20% of Cape Town’s water needs for a year.”

In the late 1940s, John Isaacs proposed transporting an 8 billion-ton iceberg to San Diego to relieve California droughts.

The idea was to capture “an eight-billion ton iceberg, 20 miles long, 3000 feet wide, and 1000 feet deep in the Antarctic and towing it up to San Clemente Island off San Diego in a matter of 200 days.”

Climate Warming Brings New Water to California’s Delta

ICE-MAR corporation, the world’s largest cultivator of ice fields, also working to bring smaller ice bergs to just outside of Bakersfield for aquifer recharge.
“The facts about iceberg towing,” https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/ … es/243364/

“A Tug on a Frozen Straw,” https://www.fastcompany.com/1755444/wat … away-video

“Running ice water,” http://web.mit.edu/12.000/www/m2012/fin … iers.shtml

“Ice for African Development,” https://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-afri … ntarctica/

“Ice Bergs for Middle East Peace!,” https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2017/ … _22086611/

Towing an Iceberg: One Captain’s Plan to Bring Drinking Water to 4 Million People1400x-1.jpg

To forestall a shutoff, each household was permitted only 50 liters—about 13 gallons—per day per person to cover drinking, cooking, washing, and showers.

sounds a lot like Mars...

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#17 2021-12-19 12:44:20

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,754

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

For SpaceNut re #16

Neat images and links!

***
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/finance … 12778.html

Iran’s water stores may never be refilled. The country needs to overhaul not just its water management policies but the economy as a whole, says Madani. He says the government should invest in jobs that will give farming communities effective alternatives, raise awareness about environmental challenges and substantially modernize the agricultural sector.

Iran is “in denial,” he says. “It keeps thinking it can mitigate or spend its way out of the problem instead of adapting.”

This long article provides grim detail of the impact of climate change, and poor management decisions, on the people of Iran.

From my perspective, the attempt to increase oil production, and to divert uranium into bomb production, is exactly the wrong set of practices. 

It seems unlikely (to me at least) than anyone in Iran will think of using the massive potential power of Uranium to deliver fresh water to the population, and to free the economy from dependence upon oil.

(th)

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#18 2021-12-19 12:49:36

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,754

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

The vision for fresh water supply for Phoenix is still developing, as a merger of flows from NewMars and on site experience with Native peoples and the agricultural community in general.

It is too early to say anything is firm at this point, but flags fluttering in the breeze (looking for salutes) include:

1) Use small (ie, 1 Mw class reactors)
2) Process ** every ** molecule pulled from the sea (Cortez, Mexico or San Diego) to deliver saleable product
3) Manage so the enterprise pays for itself from day one, including:
a. Initial investment in pipelines
b. Initial investment in power plant
c. Initial investment in material processing facilities
d. Initial investment in marketing and customer support
e. Service on and repayment of the debt

There will probably be more flags hoisted ... those are the ones I'm aware of today.

(th)

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#19 2021-12-19 15:30:05

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

Land use right of ways, out right purchases of property, entanglement of EPA / NRC ect, taxation since it is not a non profit, governmental treaties, inlet filter replacements, personnel operations expenses, cost of connecting into existing water delivery system

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#20 2021-12-19 16:30:29

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,782
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Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

I haven't read every post in this thread. A couple questions.

1) Alternate landscaping. Los Vegas has the problem of people trying to maintain lawn and wasting water to keep grass alive. Alternative is landscape with native plants that thrive on local climate alone. So just don't water the lawn at all. There are native grasses that grow in the area of Phoenix, they're thrive on arid conditions.

2) Food crops in arid conditions direct ground water. I forget where this was done, but somewhere I think in northern Africa. A hill is modified with a pair of stone walls in a V-shape. The walls are not just on the surface, they extend in the soil to impermeable ground. This directs ground water to a small garden patch on flat ground at the base of the hill. So the entire hillside is used as a rainwater collector. The soil is allowed to develop a hard crust, because that crust prevents water evaporation. So after a rain, the the water percolates through the soil of the hillside to the garden. The garden has an impermeable base, such as clay, with fertile soil on top. The garden acts as a bowl to hold that rainwater, with the water remaining in the soil. The garden also has a thin crust of dry soil, but it's less than a centimetre thick. Again, that crust prevents evaporation. This waters a garden for food crops using nothing but rain. This is far more effective than irrigation, because spraying water in the air results in a great deal of water lost to evaporation.

3) Wind catchers. In post #3, Calliban suggested atmospheric condensers. Stealing an idea from the book Dune, wind catchers can operate without power. Carefully design wind catchers to direct air into a deep underground chamber. Deep ground has a temperature that is the average for that location: day and night, summer and winter. Daytime air, especially during the summer, will be warmer. Direct wind into a chamber, with the chamber design to slow air flow inside the chamber where it can cool. Simple heat pipes placed even deeper into the ground can keep condenser surfaces cool. Collect condensed moisture. No fans, no heat pump, no compressor. Air flow strictly from wind, and passive cooling from the ground. One ironic feature is this works best on hot summer days, because the temperature difference between air and deep ground is greatest. This may require opening and closing doors to direct wind; power for automated doors is relatively small. Water collection troughs could direct water to drain down into an underground cistern, where it won't re-evaporate. Water flow through gravity. The only power required is a pump to retrieve that water for use.

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#21 2021-12-19 16:56:08

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

Artificial turf or grass, plus fake plants make a zero water solution...

That means as I stated doing water management of hillside run off plausible but would they do it.

So a flexible inlet to correct the course of any wind direction in or towards an under ground chamber which could be cooled by a water loop that goes out to the water system so that its naturally chilled by water use.

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#22 2021-12-19 17:16:48

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,754

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

For everyone who added posts to this topic .... thank you for your contributions!  This topic is bound to be challenging for everyone, and the wide range of suggestions for providing fresh water to millions of people are needed!

We are talking about providing thousands of acre-feet of fresh water to a population of millions of people and vast numbers of livestock and pets of every description.  Whatever is learned on Earth to solve this problem will be immediately transferable to Mars, where no fresh water of any kind is known to be available in locations where humans might want to set up shop.

(th)

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#23 2021-12-19 20:44:46

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

Cities have lots of ability to do collection from road side drainage to roof top systems that remove the weight from a flat roof.

https://www.wavin.com/en-en/News-Cases/ … rban-areas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainwater_harvesting

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#24 2021-12-19 21:15:06

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,754

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

For SpaceNut re topic .... the need to be addressed here is to replace the Colorado River, several smaller rivers, and massive underground aquifers.  Water from random wind flows is not reliable.  A reliable, massive source of consistent flows of fresh water is the need to be addressed.

The need exists around the world.  A post a few posts back describes the challenges facing Iran.  News reports from Africa indicate that drought is serious there, and there is no prospect of a solution.

The purpose of this topic is to work out a solution that meets the needs of the population of Phoenix as a first objective, but the needs of the entire State are close behind.

(th)

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#25 2021-12-19 21:45:08

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,747

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

One would think that the first choice is to do what you can with simple low cost efforts unit funding efforts can start to create the capital to be able to do the next more expensive stages. Even a simple pipeline with pumps are going to cost due to distance and capacity and that is with no processing at the terminal end of the line.
Since we now have the sea water at the destination then what do you do that is low cost to start the process. Under ground holding seems a big one to gain a buffer of water to costs. Next would be to use nature with plants and biomes use to create the means to filter the water for use.
Build small portable solar heat distillation units that could be sold locally for residential use to add to the base of cash flow for piping sea water to them.
There is no magically fund able means to get all residents cheap water.

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