Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

SpaceNut · 2022-07-21 20:02:16

There may be a way to draw fresh water from other locations to bring by train to the local market of interest as well.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-21 20:22:34

For SpaceNut re alternative sources of water for Phoenix and for the entire region ....

The Capitalist system is alive and well, and your observation shows an alternative competitive pathway.

I am focused upon the long term, and thus leaving the easy alternatives for others to exploit.

I think you'll find that any place in the United States where fresh water is abundant is going to resist efforts to permanently draw from their locations.

I've noticed a number of letters to the editor (published by Internet news feeds) that make the point that folks who live by rivers (for example) like having the water they have, and do not relish losing it.

The ** best ** solution (from my perspective) is to bite the bullet and transition to an inexhaustible supply of water.

However, the Capitalist system is going to be at work in this situation, so if a cheaper solution is possible, there will be someone who will attempt to exploit it.

My intention is to (try at any rate to) remain focused steadily on the Sea of Cortez option for Phoenix, and the Pacific Ocean option for Great Salt Lake.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-07-23 11:19:37

The article at the link below provides a short overview of the challenges caused by sea water corrosion on sea going vessels:

https://www.shshihang.com/corrosion-and … -pipeline/

The issue was brought as a concern by the gent who lives in Phoenix, and who has taken an interest in the Great Salt Lake pipeline, in addition to the (proposed) Sea of Cortez to Phoenix pipeline.

While the leading proposal for the Phoenix pipeline would ship desalinated water North, an attractive alternative is to ship sea water north and handle all the issues of desalination and harvesting of valuable atoms in the US.

Plastic pipes are manufactured in large diameters these days, so those might be fitted inside traditional iron/alloy pipes to reduce corrosion.

The initial expense would be greater than for a traditional pipe, but the long term savings may justify the investment.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-07-23 11:27:58

There is an inquiry in progress, to evaluate the potential to ship railroad car loads of Sea of Cortez water North for spot market sale.

Per Google:

About 6,310,000 results (0.53 seconds)
Decades ago, the typical freight railcar had a new cost below $50,000. Today, the typical freight railcar is in the $100,000 to $150,000 range.May 22, 2019
Railcar economics are as complex as the movement of freighthttps://www.freightwaves.com › News › Rail

also...

All
ShoppingNewsImagesVideosMore
Tools
About 7,540,000 results (0.57 seconds)
Typically, tank cars have up to five times the capacity of truck, holding between 6,500 gallons to more than 31,000 gallons of liquid.
UP: What Is a Rail Tank Car? - Union Pacifichttps://www.up.com › customers › track-record › tr05252...

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tahanson43206 · 2022-07-23 16:29:26

For SpaceNut ... our Phoenix contact found this site:

https://www.watertrain.us/

This appears to be a fully realized railroad transport water supply system for large customers.

While the members of this forum have considered numerous ways of moving water around on Mars, here is a time honored, reliable way to meet the needs of customers on Earth or Mars.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-07-23 17:49:08

For SpaceNut re #280

I took a look at the leadership team at watertrain.us, and decided they look solid enough to be able to succeed in a difficult market, if the winds of economic change blow in the direction they have pointed. I think the chances of finding fresh water to ship from one part of the US to another are modest at best, but (obviously) the ocean is an inexhaustible source of supply. The web site casts shade on desalination, but those are just a few words that could be edited out, and the organization could embark upon a much more lucrative and long term effort.

Entered into the contact form:

“Ideas are scary. They come into the world ugly and messy.“
-unknown
I like your quote here. It certainly applies to my inquiry. Unlike folks in your home region, the folks in Phoenix (Arizona) do not have a prospect for supplies of nature-fresh water. Instead, they are (about) 300 miles from an inexhaustible supply of sea water. I've been looking into the possibility of shipping a single carload lot of Sea of Cortez to selected customers willing to accept the need for processing the water, in return for an inexhaustible supply. If you have someone willing to humor me in developing this idea, I have a venue to offer, and a ** very ** skeptical Phoenix resident to try to entice to participate. I'll send this now for fear of running out of space in the message. (th)

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tahanson43206 · 2022-07-24 10:03:20

https://www.yahoo.com/news/engineer-her … 05563.html

This analysis of the Mississippi pipeline idea includes review of earlier proposals.

The Desert Sun
As an engineer, here's how I look at the idea of pumping water from Mississippi to the West
John Homer
Sun, July 24, 2022 at 8:01 AM
A bulldozer clears a descent path to move equipment down to the level for drilling operations as workmen start excavations for building the Channel Tunnel outside Calais, France, Nov. 17, 1973
At an age when my classmates were fascinated with dinosaurs or playing Cowboys and Indians, I picked up a book titled “Engineers’ Dreams” and was hooked. Thus began a lifelong interest in projects associated with engineering concepts about improving our world.
The author, Willy Ley, sketched the outlines of some large civil projects including the development of the Channel Tunnel connecting Britain with France. Of course, the tunnel has been in use for 28 years. He also explored ideas for generating electricity. With solar and wind power leading the way, every one of his generation schemes has seen significant development since.
Given my interests, I was drawn to a recent letter in The Desert Sun proposing to solve the shortage of water in the Southwest by bringing water from the Mississippi River.
This is not the first proposal to find water for the Southwest. One such scheme, made more than 50 years ago, would have brought water from Alaska and Canada to feed into the Columbia, Missouri, and Colorado River systems. Aside from international political and environmental considerations, the proposal was sunk by a forecast return on investment of about 5 cents for every dollar invested. I wondered would the Mississippi water scheme have a better return?
Additionally, how would I register the feasibility of this scheme against the author’s contention that two reference projects — the California Aqueduct and the Alaska Pipeline — represented far more difficult projects than he envisioned this plan to be. Marshalling a few facts challenged that supposition.
The proposed flow of 250,000 gallons/second represents a lot of water. Converting it into a more normal engineering unit, this would represent about 32,000 cubic feet/second (CFS). That happens to be about the same rate of flow as passes through the generating turbines at Hoover Dam at full capacity. In the original letter, this flow was correctly calculated as the amount of flow necessary to fill Lake Power in one year. Even at today’s record low level, Lake Power is not empty. Lesser flows could reduce the costs and difficulty of the project while still providing significant benefits.
The Alaska Pipeline is a significant project. It involved construction, in forbidding conditions, of a 48-inch diameter pipeline about 800 miles long. The peak capacity flow rate is 2 million barrels per day, or about 100 CFS. So, as a comparison, pumping the proposed volume of water from the Mississippi would involve a distance approximately twice as long for a flow about 320 times as great.
The California Aqueduct involves a peak flow of 13,000 CFS over a distance of about 450 miles. As proposed, this Mississippi diversion project would involve 2½ times as much water over a distance nearly four times as long.
One big challenge of the California Aqueduct is pumping water to a height of 1,926 feet, which requires massive pumping equipment. Our Mississippi diversion scheme has a net difference in elevation of 3,700 feet from New Orleans to Lake Powell, or a terminus nearly twice as high as the highest point in the California Aqueduct. This last difference is especially significant because the fall from 1,926 feet to near sea level could, in theory, be used to generate some power to offset the pumping power requirement. That option is not fully available in pumping to 3,700 feet.
The peak elevations required for pumping the water are likely much greater than the net difference of 3,700 feet. If we discount the higher elevations the water has to be pumped to, we still have to provide the power to raise the water to 3,700 feet. Using the power plant at Hoover Dam as a reference, this would require about 12,000 megawatts of pumping power.
The power requirement of the flow would require at least the equivalent capacity of about 5½ times the power output of the new Plant Vogtle nuclear facility in Georgia. Plant Vogtle has been estimated to cost over $28 billion. Thus, our water pumping scheme could incur a cost of $150 billion for the power plants alone.
“Wait you say, what about wind power instead of nuclear? Surely that would be cheaper.” Yes, it would, but there are, of course, challenges. A wind turbine cannot reliably produce power 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. So the installed wind power capacity would be greater than the current capacity from the 150 wind farms in Texas.
As a nation, we have seemingly lost our appetite for large projects. I don’t think this one will overcome that reluctance.
John Homer is a professional engineer working in retirement as a consultant on construction projects. He lives near Indianapolis and can be reached at JohnHomerIN@gmail.com
This article originally appeared on Palm Springs Desert Sun: Engineer evaluates idea of pumping water from Mississippi to West

I note there were over 1000 comments when this post was delivered

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SpaceNut · 2022-07-24 19:12:35

I saw another Desert Sun opinion article basically tell the fresh water greedy to stick it since they do not want to hear their problems either since they do not want to help when they could.

Took a quick look and while the filling operations of the bulk fresh water supply is sound the end terminus was sort of lacking as to how it delivers the water to the customer's site.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-24 20:03:44

For SpaceNut re #283

Thanks for taking a look. Can you tell me where to look? I must have missed seeing the filling operation.

I'm falling behind on reading, with so much coming in from multiple directions.

FYI ... I invited Mr, Homer to consider membership in the Forum.

He'd be a peer of GW Johnson.

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SpaceNut · 2022-07-24 20:59:55

Water Train delivers excess water from different areas in our country within funding limits and is available now.
Trains then arrive at the customer’s rail site, are unloaded within specific time limits and returned back for reloading.
The customer needs only to deal with product unloading, storage and/or distribution.

SpaceNut · 2022-07-26 20:25:11

successfully tested its A400M military transporter as a water bomber as heatwaves cause an increasing number of wildfires during the summer in Europe. AAZZ1Yl.img?w=534&h=356&m=6

Canadair's water bombers have capacity of 6,000 litres -- only a third of that of the A400M. But while the Canadair water bomber can scoop up water from a lake, the A400M needs to land to refill its water tanks.

Interesting could be part of a larger water delivery system and not just for fire or it control.

While trains would be guided by tracks, I am wondering if the driver shortage for Trucks could be filled by an upgraded AI car driving system installed on a diesel rig.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-27 06:31:06

For SpaceNut re #286

Thanks for that remarkable (to me at least) image!

Regarding drivers ... that's an interesting issue ... In the scenario under consideration for Phoenix, sea water would be shipped in railroad tank cars, but those might have to be filled by truck until a pipe is laid from the shore to a rail spur, or a spur is extended. Neither seems likely until the potential for long term business becomes clear, so trucks would be the most reasonable substitute. On the Mexican side, the supply of drivers may be greater than on the US side.

It's also possible (as I think about it) that the shortage of drivers reported in some parts of the US may not be a problem in Phoenix.

In any case, during early trials, only one driver is needed at either end, for a short period.

Longer term, remote operation might become attractive. It's ** way ** less risky than full AI, but has the distinct advantage that a driver can work from home, given the right electronic interface to the Internet.

***
New topic .... (or at least, new today...) Our Phoenix contact has expressed concern about deterioration of pipes that might be used for a line to carry sea water from the Sea of Cortez. Corrosion is a known serious problem for pipes carrying sea water. I asked Google about that, and received a flood of citations confirming that the combination of water and salt is ** really good ** at plucking iron atoms out of a surface. The problem is especially noticeable at bends or other locations where local pressure is greater than average.

It seems to me that concrete or hydrocarbon might be better wall materials, perhaps as liners inside traditional steel pipes for strength.

There might even be a solution using just concrete, if the risk of earth movement is low.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-07-29 10:27:49

For SpaceNut re #288

Post #288 is a ** really ** good example of a Senior Administrator taking a topic off topic!

That said, I admit the forum does not have an alternative location for such an observation.

Returning the topic to it's intended focus ...

Our Phoenix contact is thinking about a proposal I have suggested...

The issue under discussion is the scope of an initiative that might work in the Real Universe (or rather, in the Arizona part of the Real Universe).

We have both come to the conclusion that the obvious first choice, of contacting a gubernatorial candidate (or all of them) seems hopeless. Almost all the candidates have already spoken in publicly available text (on display in this forum via links), and nothing any of them said is encouraging.

Plus! The way that web sites are set up discourages actual ideas, and accepts only money, so there is no point in attempting contact.

There are two alternatives ...

I am interested in the individual household level customer ... individual households can set up home desalination equipment, and accept periodic delivery of sea water, just as many homes in rural America accept delivery of propane gas for household use. In fact, our Phoenix contact uses water cleaning equipment because the "fresh" water from the local source is unsuitable for human use.

Transition from the local source to Sea of Cortes water might even be advantageous, because the sea water may be less contaminated.

However, our contact is more interested in the potential of community sized groupings. The challenge in both cases is finding someone who is willing to take the risks involved in attempting a transition to sea water.

I would point out that folks living in New Hampshire are better positioned to consider sea water as household input than folks living in Arizona, because folks living in New Hampshire have a direct ocean access. Unlike nearby Vermont, New Hampshire residents have actual ocean front footage to draw an inexhaustible supply. Every resident of New Hampshire could potentially import sea water for home use, and deliver the waste water to the sewerage system where that is available, or to settling pits where that is still an option.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-07-30 18:04:23

This is for Void, on the chance you happen to glance at this topic....

In the past, in another topic, Void has expressed interest in the fate of the Salton Sea in California.

The Salton Sea is of interest to our contact in Phoenix, because the Salton Sea might be a source of sea water to Arizona, if California negotiates a flow of sea water from the Sea of Cortes to the Salton Sea....

Today's news feed included a snippet about Congressional action on behalf of the Salton Sea .... all that's happened so far is that the bill has been drawn up and "Introduced". It may go no further, but I suppose it might.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/house-passes … 28397.html
The Salton Sea Projects Improvement Act would allow the Bureau Reclamation to participate in these projects, by amending its authority to include entering into grants, contracts, or cooperative agreements for projects at the Salton Sea that improve air quality, fish and wildlife habitat, recreational opportunities, and water quality.
Under this expanded authority, the Bureau of Reclamation could partner with the state of California, the Salton Sea Authority, nonprofit organizations, and other entities to implement projects at the Salton Sea. These projects could include “construction, operation, maintenance, permitting, and design activities” and dust-suppression projects.
The Wildfire Response and Drought Resiliency Act still needs approval from the Senate, where it faces an uncertain future. The act passed 218-199 in the House, with just one Republican voting for the package and 198 Republicans voting against it. The Senate is evenly divided, with 48 Democrats, 50 Republicans, and two independents that caucus with the Democrats. Vice President Kamala Harris can provide the tie-breaking vote to pass measures supported by Democrats.
Erin Rode covers the environment for the Desert Sun. Reach her at erin.rode@desertsun.com or on Twitter at @RodeErin.
H.R.3877 - Salton Sea Projects Improvements Act117th Congress (2021-2022) | Get alerts
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Sponsor: Rep. Ruiz, Raul [D-CA-36] (Introduced 06/14/2021)
Committees: House - Natural Resources
Committee Meetings: 06/29/21 1:00PM
Latest Action: House - 06/29/2021 Subcommittee Hearings Held. (All Actions)
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Introduced in House (06/14/2021)

117th CONGRESS
1st Session
H. R. 3877
To amend the Reclamation Projects Authorization and Adjustment Act of 1992 to authorize additional projects related to the Salton Sea, and for other purposes.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
June 14, 2021
Mr. Ruiz introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Natural Resources
A BILL
To amend the Reclamation Projects Authorization and Adjustment Act of 1992 to authorize additional projects related to the Salton Sea, and for other purposes.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. Short title.
This Act may be cited as the “Salton Sea Projects Improvements Act”.
SEC. 2. Research Project.
Section 1101 of the Reclamation Projects Authorization and Adjustment Act of 1992 (Public Law 102–575; 106 Stat. 4661) is amended—
(1) by redesignating subsections (b) through (d) as subsections (c) through (e), respectively;
(2) by inserting after subsection (a) the following new subsection:
“(b) Additional project authorities.—
“(1) IN GENERAL.—The Secretary, acting through the Bureau of Reclamation, may provide grants and enter into contracts and cooperative agreements to carry out projects located in the area of the Salton Sea in Southern California to improve air quality, fish and wildlife habitat, recreational opportunities, and water quality, in partnership with—
“(A) State, Tribal, and local governments;
“(B) water districts;
“(C) joint powers authorities, including the Salton Sea Authority;
“(D) nonprofit organizations; and
“(E) institutions of higher education.
“(2) INCLUDED ACTIVITIES.—The projects described in paragraph (1) may include—
“(A) construction, operation, maintenance, permitting, and design activities required for such projects; and
“(B) dust suppression projects.”; and
(3) in subsection (e), as so redesignated, by striking “$10,000,000” and inserting “$250,000,000”.
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SpaceNut · 2022-07-30 18:53:32

Hope there is a good multistage filtration going on before making use of that water as the types and amounts of biological as well as mineral contaminants could be quite something to deal with.

MIT team’s new device turns seawater into drinking water with one button press

Did not research but since power is mostly hydro that means once the water is gone this unit will not do anything for the customers that have sea water to make use of.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-30 19:40:21

For SpaceNut re #290

Thanks for the link to the MIT desalination report ...

I'm wondering if this device would work with the iron particles in your ground water ? It seems oriented toward salt, which is good, but taking out iron would be a nice bonus.

Instead of using filters to clean the seawater and turn it into drinking water, the device uses ion concentration polarization (or ICP). ICP was pioneered by Jongyoon Han and a team of researchers almost a decade ago. It applies an electrical field to membranes above and below the water. This then repels the particles as it passes through.
However, ICP doesn’t always remove all of the salt particles floating in the water. To combat this, the researchers incorporated another process, electrodialysis, which they use to remove any remaining salt ions. Altogether, the system works well in tandem, allowing them to turn seawater into drinking water.
Of course, building something in a lab is one thing. To truly test the product, MIT says the researchers took it to a beach and field-tested the device. It was able to successfully turn seawater into drinking water on the first run. But, Han says that success was only possible because of all the advances made toward desalination technology along the way.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-08-05 09:50:15

https://www.yahoo.com/news/saltwater-to … 10659.html

This story is about Catalina Island, but it has a wider scope.

It even might stretch (with a bit of imagination) to Mars.

The salt water toilets and salt water showers (with fresh water rince) make a lot of sense.

LA Times
Saltwater toilets, desperate wildlife: Water-starved Catalina Island battles against drought
Hayley Smith
Fri, August 5, 2022 at 8:00 AM
Avalon, CA - July 26: Raymond Valdez, 8, pours cool sea water on his head to rinse off the sand at the beach on Tuesday, July 26, 2022, in Avalon, CA. (Francine Orr / Los Angeles Times)
Raymond Valdez, 8, pours cool seawater on his head to rinse off the sand at the beach in Avalon. (Francine Orr / Los Angeles Times)
Island-dweller Lori Snell grimaced as she tallied her bill recently at the Avalon Laundry — nearly $50 for three large loads.
"It's always an adventure to live in Catalina," said Snell, 64. "It's a joy, it's a paradise, it's a challenge."
For Snell and Santa Catalina Island's other 4,000 full-time residents, water is a bit of an obsession. When you live an hourlong ferry ride from Long Beach, a gallon of the stuff can cost six times more than it does "over town" — the islanders' term for the mainland.
That preoccupation with water has now become critical as severe drought grips California and its Channel Islands — a rugged, eight-isle archipelago that hosts several human outposts and a handful of species that exist nowhere else on Earth.
But although some of the island's wildlife is struggling for survival, conditions for humans are a little different today than in droughts past, due largely to a desalination plant that opened in Avalon in 2016. The plant today provides about 40% of Avalon's drinking water.
"Over town, you're not affected by drought as much as you are here," said Snell, a former resident of Encino. "All the locals and businesses are very aware. Our ability to live here depends on us having fresh water."
An aerial view of the harbor and hillside of Avalon, Catalina Island
Conditions on Catalina Island are a little different this time around, thanks in large part to a desalination plant that opened in Avalon at the end of the last drought. (Francine Orr / Los Angeles Times)
Many Avalon residents still have vivid memories of the state's last punishing drought, which forced them into severe Stage 3 water restrictions at the end of 2016.
Things got so bad that even some fine-dining restaurants switched to paper plates to avoid running dishwashers, and hotels ferried their linens to the mainland for laundering in an effort to cut costs and conserve tight supplies, several locals said.
But desalination has helped keep them out of similarly severe water restrictions so far this year, according to Ronald Hite, senior manager of Catalina Island for Southern California Edison, the island's water provider.
"We run desal 100% of the time and rely on it, and then supplement with groundwater," Hite said. "That's bought us a year, and taken us really from the front of the line — where we were last time, going into drought restrictions and rationing — to the back of the line, which is fantastic."
A bison stands on dry dirt in Catalina
Although desalination provides potable water to Catalina's humans, it can't do quite as much to help the island's wildlife, including bison, amid the worsening drought. (Francine Orr / Los Angeles Times)
Indeed, although most of mainland Los Angeles moved into Stage 3 restrictions at the start of June, Avalon in July crept into only Stage 1, even as its reservoir dropped about 100 acre-feet in the last three months. Hite said it's a remarkable feat for an island that has no access to state or federal water supplies, and which for decades relied primarily on its reservoir to supply full-time residents and roughly 1 million visitors each year.
"This is different this time — we’re actually in a much better spot than our peers elsewhere," he said. "And the main driver of that is that we are using every drop of our drought-resistant resources that we possibly can. ... We might be facing mandatory rationing right now had we operated the system like we used to."
That's not to say water is taken for granted on Catalina, where conservation has largely become a way of life. According to Hite, residents use an average of 57 gallons per day — about half of the residential average in the area served by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power. What's more, there are very few lawns that require water, and most homes have saltwater toilets that keep them from flushing freshwater down the drain.
Gregg Miller, who owns Avalon's Hotel Metropole and Market Place, which includes several restaurants and the laundromat, said he's spent the last four years converting most of the hotel's bathtubs into showers in order to save water. He also got rid of all their hot tubs.
"It’s such an ongoing situation," Miller said of drought. "It never gets quite resolved, so you’re always really doing things that you hope will save some water. It’s a challenge."
A woman carefully cleans the sidewalk outside the Hotel Atwater in Avalon, CA.
Scooping cups of water from a bucket rather than using a hose, a woman cleans the sidewalk outside the Hotel Atwater in Avalon. Water is not taken for granted on the island. (Francine Orr / Los Angeles Times)
And although he said it can be "hard to tell people paying $300 a night, 'Don't take a long shower,' " the new desalination plant has helped give everyone some breathing room.
"To some degree, the desal plant has taken a little bit of the pressure off," Miller said. "Because unlike most other places, we don’t have any secondary source, another municipal district that could lend us water or share water with us. We have only what we have in our reservoirs and a few small wells."
The message hasn't necessarily registered with all of the island's visitors, including the thousands of tourists who arrive each week via cruise ships and those who take the ferry from L.A., Long Beach and Orange County.
Phil and Cheryl Gaston, who were visiting from Georgia, said they were aware of the drought conditions plaguing the West but that it hadn't really factored into their plans to visit the island.
"If I had been planning a vacation in Lake Mead, though, I wouldn't go," said Phil Gaston, 66.
Visitors enjoy snorkeling and scuba diving lessons in Avalon.
Alex Romero looks out the customer-service window of a restaurant
Alex Romero manages the burger-and-dog outpost Coney Island West in Avalon. He recently converted the restaurant's three-compartment sink into two compartments to help save water. (Francine Orr / Los Angeles Times)
Alex Romero, a 40-year resident of Avalon who runs and owns the burger-and-dog outpost Coney Island West, said that "it would be nice if [tourists] would be more conscious — their long showers really kill us." But he also added that visitors are the lifeblood of the island and essential to the residents' way of life. "They're what keep us going."
Romero recently converted the restaurant's three-compartment sink into two compartments to help save water, he said. And instead of hosing down the patio nightly, he's doing it once a week and using a mop the rest of the time.
"The reservoir and desal help, but we need rain this year for sure," he said. "If not, it will get a lot worse."
Desalination is also not without controversy. In May, plans for the massive Poseidon plant in Huntington Beach were rejected by the California Coastal Commission due to concerns about high costs, ecological hazards and other significant hurdles. The desalination process, which typically includes the discharge of hypersaline brine back into the ocean, has been criticized for negatively affecting marine life near facilities, as well as high energy consumption.
Hite, the Edison manager, said many of those effects have been mitigated at the Avalon plant because of its relatively small scale. Although the Poseidon plant would have produced up to 50 million gallons of drinking water a day, the facility in Avalon produces about 240,000.
A female water and gas operator mechanic at Southern California Edison checks the numbers on a control panel
Ava Jessie McDonald, a water and gas operator mechanic at Southern California Edison, checks the numbers on the control panel inside the desalination plant in Avalon. (Francine Orr / Los Angeles Times)
"We’ve got a couple things going for us here in terms of desal production in that number one, we are surrounded by water so we have easy access to it, and number two, we're relatively small scale," he said. "It's much less of an impact for someone like us than for, say, a giant plant such as those that have been proposed recently."
According to the most recent monitoring report submitted to state regulators, salinity levels from the plant are relatively low, around 50 parts per thousand at the discharge point and 30 to 35 parts per thousand at various depths and distances from the facility. Average ocean salinity, broadly speaking, is about 35 parts per thousand.
Hite said the reverse-osmosis plant, which is diesel-powered, also uses the high-pressure reject water to help turn its pump, enabling it to use a smaller motor and reduce electrical consumption. Edison is currently seeking a grant for a new deepwater well that would allow it to bring an older desalination facility on the island, built in the 1990s, back online, he said.
Yoram Cohen, a desalination expert and professor of chemical and biomolecular engineering at UCLA who is not affiliated with the Avalon plant, said size can be a factor when it comes to the impact of the brine.
"If you discharge 20, 25 million gallons a day, that’s a lot more than 200,000 gallons a day," he said, "so the impact on the environment, the local impact, is going to be very different. It may be easier to disperse a small volume, or a small volumetric flow, than it is a huge one."
Visitors take a two-hour "eco-tour" with the Catalina Island Conservancy in Avalon. They explore parts of the island's interior to see plants, landscape and wildlife, including bison. (Francine Orr / Los Angeles Times)
An aerial view of the Middle Ranch Reservoir on Catalina
The water level at the Middle Ranch Reservoir in Avalon dropped 100 acre-feet in the last three months. (Francine Orr / Los Angeles Times)
Cohen said recent studies from Australia, Israel, Singapore, Saudi Arabia and other places using desalination have also shown that discharge "should not have an adverse impact" if it is done properly. But although desalination can be a helpful tool — especially for areas near the coast — it shouldn't be the only source of supplies, he said.
"Desal alone is not going to solve the problem, but it’s an added component of our water portfolio," Cohen said. "At the end of the day, I think that we have to keep our water portfolio diversified, just like you would keep your money invested in multiple places. You want to be safe, right? You don’t put your money in one investment."
There are other challenges too. Many residents are now fighting a proposed rate hike by Edison that they say will make their already-pricey water even more expensive. The agency said the increase will help recoup some losses from the last drought and keep the systems running.
"Desal is not an inexpensive operation," Avalon Mayor Anni Marshall acknowledged. She said the island's small number of ratepayers also drive up the costs because there are fewer people to share the expense. "But I think the trade-off is, we love living here and we're willing to sacrifice as much as we can — or as much as we have to."
Thousands of tourists arrive each week in Catalina via cruise ships and ferries from L.A.
Thousands of tourists arrive each week in Catalina via cruise ships and ferries from L.A. (Francine Orr / Los Angeles Times)
Marshall said she wants the island to work toward new groundwater capture and water recycling projects in the near future.
But she also noted that because most homes use saltwater toilets and don't have frontyards, the significant 50% savings residents achieved during the last drought were hard-won.
"That large reduction we did was basically personal consumption — it was in our showers, washing dishes and that kind of thing," she said.
The mindset is apparent all around the town, where beachgoers this week rinsed off under saltwater showers and restaurants declined to provide tap water, offering only bottles. One woman was spotted cleaning the sidewalk with a bucket and a cup, carefully doling out one splash at a time. For many, including Marshall, it's a success story.
"It’s amazing," she said. "The situation we’re in now is nothing compared to what it was in the previous drought."
A ground-level look at the low water level at the Middle Ranch Reservoir on Catalina
The water level of water at the Middle Ranch Reservoir on Catalina Island is down due to the current draught. (Francine Orr / Los Angeles Times)
But although desalination is keeping Catalina's humans supplied with potable water, it can't do quite as much to help the island's flora and fauna amid worsening drought.
The famed Catalina Island fox, as well as the island's non-native deer and bison, are "suffering mightily" due to the lack of moisture, which is tied closely to their food supply, according to Deni Porej, senior conservation director with the Catalina Island Conservancy. Lately, he said, deer have been appearing on the island's golf course in the evenings, when they know the sprinklers will turn on and provide them with a spot of relief.
What's more, a combination of dry conditions, deer predation and pollination problems is threatening the island's ancient ironwood trees, of which there are only about 120 left.
"Groundwater is hugely important to us, because a lot of the plants that we have here have very deep roots, and they tap into the groundwater," Porej said, noting that for the ironwoods, "the issue of groundwater is a matter of life and death."
A couple takes a break from the water fun in Avalon.
A couple takes a break from the water fun in Avalon. (Francine Orr / Los Angeles Times)
"It's a weird feeling when you're standing in the grove and you're looking at basically a species dying out. It's kind of a gut punch," he said.
Porej said he hoped to see island officials come together to develop a more comprehensive groundwater management plan, but he also credited the desalination plant with improving some of Catalina's conditions.
"It's helping, but it’s not the ultimate solution, because there’s always a need for more," he said. "We will always be looking for opportunities to have more water on the island. That’s the limiting factor to our ecosystem, it’s the limiting factor to growth. Like many parts of California, it’s about gold and water."
This story originally appeared in Los Angeles Times.

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kbd512 · 2022-08-05 10:20:19

tahanson43206,

There's a guy in California with a YouTube channel who actually puts his money where his mouth is, regarding his green dream lifestyle, mostly going broke in the process (like most Americans, he thinks buying gadgets solves basic math problems), but he did a video on a new mesh and sponge technology that takes water vapor from the air. I thought it was really interesting. These materials work with as little as 4% relative humidity and up to 100%. I was floored at how much water a square meter of the material can pull out of the air per day. It's paper-thin and set into the ground on tent stakes with the collector sponge underneath it. Mold could develop on the sponge, but this would still be suitable for irrigation and feed water for a synthetic fuel plant. The tech is still lab technology, but it's not made from Unobtanium and at least appears that it could be mass-manufactured at a reasonable cost. It might last 5 years, maybe 7 years tops, before a replacement is required. Given that zero input energy is required to use these materials in conjunction with each other to collect what is essentially potable water, I think it's worth looking at.

This is a purpose-built atmospheric water vapor collection system, not rainwater, although it still does what it does when it rains. You could set the mesh / fabric out above the ground, sort of like a fence, the wind blows, the mesh captures the water vapor blown into it, the water vapor dribbles down to the collector sponge, and is piped into a holding tank, either fed into irrigation systems or into fuel synthesis plants. If you take the farm irrigation water demand pressure off the various rivers and lakes, then there's enough drinking water for places like California and Arizona.

Alternatively, you need a hell of a lot of power to desalinate sea water, by whatever method. This novel new option has to be the cheapest by virtue of energy cost (zero or near-zero- there is no power source other than gravity and some pumps to move the liquid water collected) and embodied energy cost (I'm not sure how much money a porous plastic will cost to manufacture, but it shouldn't be much more than existing plastics).

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-05 12:14:14

For kbd512 re #293

Right in the middle of something but wanted to thank you for the tip about this gent with his mesh water collection system.

SearchTerm:Mesh water collection system
SearchTerm:water mesh collection system

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SpaceNut · 2022-08-05 18:11:16

Pipeline materials will need to be concrete with a liner of fiberglass or other composite such as to resist scaling and corrosion of the pipe. Once it gets to the plant you most likely will have stainless and other metals within the system as sacrifice materials to slow corrosion.
The system takes in more sea water than what it delivers after desalination. Of course, the price is not just on the fresh water as the output of the higher concentration of the waste sea water will be considered hazmat.
If the wastewater processed fresh Water from the sewage treatment plant is used a dilutant then you could pass it into streams or rivers if the concentration of metals and other is low enough.

let's consider delivery of sea water to a home:

City pipelines would need upgrading for use to each home for it to be used.

The in-house plumbing would need to update from metals to most likely a plastic for all items with in it.

The use of sea water cold in a shower does not sound all that great and its most likely will have an odor as well as scaling of fixtures will need constant replacing. Of course, one would not want a tub full of seawater that is cold either, so that means a changing of hot water system since electrical would have the electrodes for heating being replaced often.

The use in a toilet will only have a possible odor and scaling of internal fixture and bowl most likely to contend with but it would seem more plausible but for those with a septic tank I am not sure how that would be impacted those with sewage systems would be the cities issue for cleaning for scaling.

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-06 12:12:02

For SpaceNut re #295

Thanks for your (to me very) interesting idea of delivering sea water by pipeline to individual homes!

That would seem to be a reasonable expectation in Catalina Island, which is surrounded by the ocean.

It is more of a stretch to imagine that situation in Phoenix, to just pick a city out of a hat.

However, for Mars, it seems reasonable (to me at least) to suppose various grades of water would be piped here and their within a community, for appropriate use as needed, instead of converting everything to potable water as is the norm in most major cities in the US (and presumably elsewhere on Earth).

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tahanson43206 · 2022-08-06 12:12:09

https://www.yahoo.com/news/monsoon-2022 … 34189.html

It's only fair to report both sides of the rainfall issue in Arizona ...

The bottom line appears to be that even with storm rains, total accumulation is about half of normal.

Monsoon 2022: Rainfall totals across much of northern Arizona far exceed normal
Lacey Latch
Arizona Republic
Almost every location recording rainfall totals across northern Arizona reported measurements far above what they would have normally experienced by this point in the summer monsoon season, according to data from the National Weather Service.
"The next one to two weeks also seem like they're going to be pretty active and wet in a lot of the area," said Justin Johndrow, a weather service meteorologist.
"So that's just going to add on to these totals and maybe even get farther above normal over the next couple weeks," he said.
The departure from the normal rainfall varies widely across northern Arizona, with many places reporting between a half-inch to 2 inches more rain than usual.
But the rainfall totals in a few places including Bellemont, the Heber Ranger Station, Prescott's Sundog Water Plant as well as Sunset Crater and Walnut Canyon national monuments recorded over 3 inches more rainfall than they typically receive at this point in the season.

The increased recorded rainfall can likely be contributed to an early start to the monsoon season in addition to moisture coming in from Northern California, said Lee Born, staff meteorologist for KNAU and faculty at Northern Arizona University.
"It really aided in bringing deep Gulf of California moisture into Arizona," Born said. "Just where that high-pressure cell set up, it just really ramped up our moisture values across the state and we had a bunch of moisture to work with there for a couple of weeks."
Only three locations recorded rainfall less than the area's typical average but these deviations were minimal, involving less than half an inch of rain.
But when looking at the monsoon season as a whole, "It kind of all washes out in the end," Born said.
Weekes Wash runs across Superstition Blvd, near Chaparral Road on July 28, 2022, in Apache Junction.
Because monsoon rains are so spotty, Born said, by this point in the season it's not particularly surprising there is such a wide range in rainfall totals across Northern Arizona so far.
For example, Flagstaff airport has gotten only 4 inches of rain while the east side of the city has gotten more than 10 inches. That means the airport has recorded just around half of the rain it normally does by this point in the year while other areas have seen a 200% increase. As the season continues, storms will likely impact areas like the airport that haven't seen much rain yet, bringing the rainfall totals closer to normal.

"In the end, we'll probably all be right around the same place," Born said. "So how great this last four weeks of rain has felt, we're still half of normal just in 2022."
With the increased rainfall, some areas, particularly those around wildfire burn scars, have experienced extreme flash flooding repeatedly this summer. Flagstaff residents on both sides of the Pipeline Fire burn scar have been dealing with weeks of sustained rains and flooding that have brought with them sediment and debris from the scorched mountainside.
But this flooding, while more extreme this year than most, can sometimes be a necessary hazard when dealing with such prolonged drought conditions, Johndrow said.

"Obviously it's unfortunate that it's caused this flooding but to get runoff into the rivers and the reservoirs, it's going to cause some flooding at times so there's really no way to avoid that," Johndrow said.
"We really don't get, especially in the summer, long gentle rains that fill reservoirs," he said. "It comes in large storms that have heavy runoff and flooding that helps fill those lakes."
With weeks of monsoon season still ahead, the city of Flagstaff met with community members Thursday evening at City Hall to address the concerns of residents living on the west side of the Pipeline burn scar and discuss short- and long-term mitigation efforts.
"The decision to hold a community meeting was made as we have seen multiple flood events to date, and we want to provide another opportunity to make sure residents have all of the information they need as we continue through monsoon season," said a spokesperson for the Flagstaff mayor's office.

Storms are expected to continue this weekend in the Flagstaff area. According to a weather service forecast Friday, isolated to scattered thunderstorms are possible Friday and Saturday with afternoon temperatures a bit warmer due to the reduced cloud cover and precipitation.
"Storm chances increase on Sunday with scattered to numerous thunderstorms expected each afternoon through the middle of next week," the forecast stated.

Contact northern Arizona reporter Lacey Latch at llatch@gannett.com or on social media @laceylatch. Coverage of northern Arizona on azcentral.com and in The Arizona Republic is funded by the nonprofit Report for America and a grant from the Vitalyst Health Foundation in association with The Arizona Republic.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-08-06 12:32:20

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mexico-draft … 00620.html

As I collect this for posting, I haven't read it yet.

The Santa Fe New Mexican
New Mexico drafting 50-year water plan to tackle climate change impacts
Scott Wyland, The Santa Fe New Mexican
Sat, August 6, 2022 at 12:01 AM
Aug. 6—State officials are drafting a 50-year water plan in response to a changing climate that has kept New Mexico in a 22-year drought and is expected to worsen in the coming decades.
A multifaceted plan covering the next half-century is a way to get ahead of climate change's inevitable impacts on water supplies within an arid Southwestern state growing even warmer and drier, officials said Friday at an Interstate Stream Commission hearing.
The plan offers three overarching strategies for protecting and enhancing New Mexico's limited water supply — sustainability, stewardship and equity — as the state faces average temperatures rising as much as 7 degrees, river flows dropping and parched soils reducing runoff into waterways and aquifers in the coming decades.
Although the plan draws on the state's "leap ahead report," which gives dire predictions for the upcoming 50 years, the point is to take constructive action to avoid the worst water impacts, partly by using available tools and the knowledge of local communities that have survived in a harsh, dry climate for centuries, said Andrew Erdman, the commission's water planning program manager.
"It's not entirely doom and gloom, although there is some in there," Erdman told commissioners. "It's not going to solve all the state's water problems. This is really about moving us forward in terms of addressing climate change."
The Friday hearing kicked off a public comment period that will run until Sept. 14, the date the commission is scheduled to vote on finalizing the plan.
Erdman presented a slideshow that outlined the plan's many parts, but the commission didn't release the draft plan itself. Spokeswoman Maggie Fitzgerald said the draft had some kinks that need to be worked out before it is made public.
Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham called for crafting the 50-year water plan for the state to deal with its share of the global climate crisis, cause by massive greenhouse gases spewed into the atmosphere over the past two centuries.
The basic goals are to identify the impacts of climate change, assess vulnerabilities across the state, engage with New Mexicans and recommend actions, Erdman said.
Rolf Schmidt-Petersen, the commission's director, said the plan is fairly broad-brush, with the intention of laying out what needs to be done.
Coming up with detailed blueprints for the "how" — such as designing the infrastructure or nailing down the right technology — is the next step, Schmidt-Petersen said.
Devising preventive measures to curb climate change, such as reducing carbon emissions, is a separate undertaking that other agencies are doing, he said.
Nelia Dunbar, who co-authored the leap ahead report, agreed the emphasis should be on how to resolve the challenges, rather than becoming resigned to a bleak outcome.
"We have deep resources of long-term environmental knowledge ... held partly be Indigenous peoples, as well as tremendous intellectual capability, creativity and entrepreneurial spirit in our state," said Dunbar, interim vice president for research at New Mexico Tech. "We will need to call on all of these as we move forward into a warmer, drier, future."
One beginning step in this plan is to assess water resiliency, or its ability to withstand drying conditions over time.
Warmer temperatures increase evaporation and dry out topsoils, making them absorb runoff before it reaches rivers or seeps into aquifers. The result is depleted surface and groundwater.
The plan recommends studying current water conservation, watershed health, water availability and diversity of water sources — for instance, how much is surface water and how much is groundwater.
Officials also should look at infrastructure to see if it can handle increasing water demands in a changing climate, Erdman said, noting this would include sufficient water storage.
Stewardship would include improving the health of rivers, lakes, reservoirs and "upland watersheds" or mountain water sources, he said.
Schmidt-Petersen said most of the runoff flowing into the Rio Grande and other rivers originates in upland watersheds, including from melting snowpacks. Maintaining these watersheds' health will be vital in the future, he said.
Riparian and other aquatic species must be protected, Erdman said.
On the sustainability portion, the state must work with farmers and ensure all of them have fair access to water-saving technology, he said.
The plan recommends updating administrative practices. That includes ending water-right declarations, strengthening enforcement, establishing statewide metering and developing alternative water permitting.
Fostering equity can start with engaging more with tribes, Erdman said. The state should tap tribes' traditional knowledge of conservation and form partnerships with them, he said. And, he said officials also should resolve Native American water rights disputes.
At the same time, they should work with acequia communities to ensure equity, he said. Within these villages, they should improve disaster response and recovery, support adjudication and strengthen local food production.
Dave DuBois, state climatologist who co-wrote a chapter in the plan, said the climate is definitely changing and requires preemptive actions.
Average temperatures have risen more than half a degree per decade in the past 50 years and could increase more quickly going forward, DuBois said.
Yearly precipitation isn't expected to decrease overall, but there are likely to be seasonal changes, such as more rain in the spring when warmer temperatures cause more of it to evaporate, DuBois said. And drier soils and vegetation will soak up more runoff, depriving rivers of the water, he said.
This plan's main purpose is to spur everyone from city officials to ranchers to make adjustments in how they've always done things, so they can operate in the new reality, DuBois said.
"We need to be able to change," DuBois said. "That's the hard part. We don't like to change anything."

After reading (scanning) ... all common sense do nothing new ... same old same old ... about what I expected.

I'd like to highlight this gent:

Dave DuBois, state climatologist
"We need to be able to change," DuBois said. "That's the hard part. We don't like to change anything."

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tahanson43206 · 2022-08-06 12:49:04

I decided to write Dr. DuBois...

For Dr. DuBois ...
The article recently published by the Arizona Republic about Climate Change and New Mexico included your comments about the need for change.
I am a (junior) Moderator for a discussion group which is part of the Mars Society.
In that role, I try to encourage our members to think about water supply on Mars. That is a hard problem, and the current situation in the Southwestern US is quite interesting as an inspiration for creative thinking.
You appear to be young enough (on one hand) and sufficiently well situated in society (on the other) to be able to pick up an idea circulating among the bright people here, and (possibly) run with it.
If you are interested in helping us to develop the idea further, you are welcome to write me back, or contact the forum directly via the Recruiting portal.
The forum is: newmars.com/forums
So!
The idea (in a nutshell) is to capture moisture from the air (using solar powered small drone aircraft) and deliver it to where it is needed.
***
Your natural response might be to think of all the challenges that would lie in wait for anyone who takes that idea on.
We ** think ** we've covered most of the objections that any sensible person might raise, but you may well have others to add to the mix.
***
I've already tossed the idea into the hopper at the Department of Commerce, but the bureaucracy there has undoubtedly filed the message in the crackpot file.
I used to serve in an assistant role for a PhD in the field of Radio Telescope Engineering. He was globally recognized at the time, and he had a well stuffed crackpot file.
Hopefully this message will not end up in ** your ** crackpot file, but I recognize that is most certainly possible.
I have posted your remarks as an addendum to the original article in the Phoenix topic in the forum.

posting as tahanson43206
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tahanson43206 · 2022-08-07 11:05:27

https://www.yahoo.com/news/future-less- … 00593.html

Another view of the "50 year plan"

Future with less water predicted in plan
Theresa Davis, Albuquerque Journal, N.M.
Sat, August 6, 2022 at 10:10 AM
Aug. 6—In 50 years, Rio Grande flows in New Mexico could decline by 30%.
Water in reservoirs such as Elephant Butte is expected to evaporate much faster, and soil and trees across the state will suffer with scorching temperatures and less water.
The scale of climate change impacts on the state's water supplies demands immediate action from every level of government, according to the draft 50-year water plan released by the Interstate Stream Commission this week.
Andrew Erdmann, who manages the state water planning program, said the plan won't solve every water problem.
But the agency wants the plan to be a "living document that won't just sit on a shelf."
"This is really about moving us forward in terms of addressing climate change," Erdmann said.
The report, requested by Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham, has as its foundation a leap-ahead climate analysis by a state panel of scientists.
That research found New Mexico's average annual statewide temperatures in 50 years could increase by as much as 7 degrees.
Higher temperatures will create a more arid climate.
A drier New Mexico increases the likelihood for hotter, more intense droughts.
Snowpack may decrease, and runoff could happen earlier in the year.
"We're looking at lower streamflow and aquifer recharge," Erdmann said.
Those diminished water levels could stress plants and soil statewide.
In the 50-year plan, the water team warns that "future generations will bear the burden of our inaction" if we "choose not to plan and prepare" for climate impacts on ecology and communities.
The report recommends ways to plan for a hotter future with less water.
New Mexico should protect upland watersheds from forest fires that can impact water quality.
Water resilience means devoting equal resources to managing groundwater and surface water supplies, said ISC director Rolf Schmidt-Petersen.
"Ultimately, as we go through drier time periods, it is these underground aquifer systems that we rely on," he said.
The state may look to alternative sources as New Mexico faces less water supply and more demand.
Those backup supplies could include treated oilfield or municipal wastewater, deep wells, brackish water and cloud seeding.
Aron Balok, an ISC commissioner and superintendent of the Pecos Valley Artesian Conservancy District, said using diverse water sources is "only half of the equation."
"If I haven't made arrangements to replenish that supply and I'm mining that (groundwater), all I've done is kick the can pretty hard," Balok said.
The irrigation expert also cautioned against overreliance on fallowing farm fields to reduce water use, a practice he warned could have irreversible effects on agriculture.
Other plan recommendations:
⋄ Protect acequias and other community-managed irrigation systems
⋄ Help farmers and municipalities conserve water
⋄ Modernize water rights administration and enforcement
New Mexico's water infrastructure was "not built for climate change," according to the planning team.
The water plan encourages the Legislature, state agencies and communities to take advantage of a historic influx of project funding. New Mexico is slated to receive $355 million from the federal government's bipartisan infrastructure law for water projects.
Drought and aridity are not new for the state. But the plan warns that climate change will "upend the historical trends on which water use practices and interstate compacts are based."
Current state water policies may not hold up to the future water reality.
In most regions, the planning team writes, "any new use of water such as cannabis cultivation or expansion of existing water use must come at the expense of an existing water use."
The report recommends learning from tribes, pueblos and acequia communities that have centuries of experience managing slim water supplies.
Tribes and acequia groups contributed recommendations to the report.
Commissioner Paula Garcia, who is also executive director of the New Mexico Acequia Association, said policies should revolve around "being good stewards" and preserving water for future generations.
The report highlights projects that are good examples of resilient water management, including:
⋄ Agencies that work together to boost Rio Chama flows for weekend rafting and fish habitat
⋄ The state strategic water reserve, which allows for leased water rights to be used in important river stretches
⋄ Cities such as Albuquerque and Santa Fe that have diverse water supplies and encourage conservation.
The 50-year plan is separate from the state water plan, which must be updated every five years.
Hotter future
—When a 2022 high school graduate approaches retirement age, Albuquerque's climate will feel like Roswell's climate today. Taos will feel more like Farmington.
—New Mexico's overall water supply could shrink by 25%-30% over the next 50 years
—Agriculture currently accounts for 77% of New Mexico's water use
—Higher temperatures in 50 years could prompt a 22% increase in water needed to irrigate crops

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