Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

SpaceNut · 2022-07-10 19:53:53

The draught is hitting even a place that sits in the middle of an ocean.
Drought threatens drinking water supply to Central Pacific island

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-16 13:14:53

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sounded-alar … 17201.html

This report by Ian James is a dismal testimonial to the collective stupidity of human beings.

Many examples of individuals trying to alert the population to impending disaster are given.

Many examples of decision makers making the wrong decision, year after year and decade after decade.

The concurrent example of climate change is included in the article.

LA Times
They sounded alarms about a coming Colorado River crisis. But warnings went unheeded
Ian James
Fri, July 15, 2022 at 8:00 AM
Scenes around Lake Mead as persistent drought drives water levels to their lowest point in history.
A boat juts from the shoreline of Lake Mead, exposed as the water has receded to the lowest levels since the reservoir was filled in the 1930s. (Luis Sinco / Los Angeles Times)
The Colorado River is approaching a breaking point, its reservoirs depleted and Western states under pressure to drastically cut water use.
It’s a crisis that scientists have long warned was coming. Years before the current shortage, scientists repeatedly alerted public officials who manage water supplies that the chronic overuse of the river combined with the effects of climate change would likely drain the Colorado’s reservoirs to dangerously low levels.
But these warnings by various researchers — though discussed and considered by water managers — went largely unheeded.
Now, many of the scientists’ dire predictions are coming to pass, with Lake Mead and Lake Powell nearly three-fourths empty and their water levels continuing to fall. Some researchers say the seven states that depend on the river would have been better prepared had they acted years ago.
“If I've learned anything recently, it's that humans are really reluctant to give things up to prevent a catastrophe," said Brad Udall, a water and climate scientist at Colorado State University. "They're willing to hang on to the very end and risk a calamity."
The Colorado Rivers passes between steep canyon walls.
The Colorado River, vital to seven states, as seen from the Toroweap Overlook on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. (Luis Sinco / Los Angeles Times)
He said it’s just like humanity’s lack of progress in addressing climate change despite decades of warnings by scientists.
If larger cuts in water use were made sooner, Udall said, the necessary reductions could have been phased in and would have been much easier.
Peter Gleick, a water and climate scientist and co-founder of the Pacific Institute, said the collective failure to heed scientists' repeated warnings is "directly responsible for how bad conditions are today."
“If we had cut water use in the Colorado River over the last two decades to what we now understand to be the actual levels of water availability, there would be more water in the reservoirs today,” Gleick said. “The crisis wouldn't be nearly as bad.”
In a 1993 study for the federal government, Gleick and coauthor Linda Nash examined the threat climate change posed for the river and warned that the water supply would be very sensitive to rising temperatures.
“Under conditions of long-term flow reductions and current operating rules, these reservoirs are drawn almost completely dry,” they wrote. “Current approaches to water management in the basin will have to be modified.”
Four white rafts seen from high overhead.
Whitewater rafters ride the Colorado River, as seen from Toroweap Overlook on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. (Luis Sinco / Los Angeles Times)
In 2000, board members of the Metropolitan Water District who were concerned about climate change invited scientists including Gleick to speak at a workshop. The scientists advised them to start preparing for consequences including less Sierra snow and possible decades of drought.
Gleick said a common refrain from many water managers in the 1980s and ’90s, when told about risks based on climate projections, was to respond that once they had a more definitive picture of effects on water resources, they could deal with it.
Even later, as the projections got more definitive and “alarm bells got louder,” Gleick said, political barriers hindered changes in the entrenched system of how the river’s water is divided and managed, a system established starting with the 1922 Colorado River Compact. Action was stymied, he said, by those “who either didn't want to believe the science or had something to lose if we changed our policies.”
Gleick said there is a parallel in how fossil fuel interests have long fought the sorts of changes necessary to address global warming.
In the Colorado River Basin, Gleick said, the vested interests that have hindered new approaches for dealing with the water shortfall include some in agriculture who benefit from generations-old water rights, water managers with a “find more and more water” mentality, and politicians who’ve fought to defend old state apportionments.
In the 2000s, as drought ravaged the watershed, a growing body of scientific research showed that higher temperatures would substantially shrink the flow of the river, which supplies farmlands and cities from the Rocky Mountains to Southern California and northern Mexico.
“If I've learned anything recently, it's that humans are really reluctant to give things up to prevent a catastrophe."
Brad Udall, a water and climate scientist
In a 2004 study, scientists at the University of Washington projected major declines in runoff and river flow with warmer temperatures.
In other research in 2007, scientists Martin Hoerling and Jon Eischeid wrote that climate simulations showed an an increase in drought severity would occur “in lockstep” with global warming, projecting a 25% reduction in flow from 2006 to 2030, and a 45% decrease by midcentury.
When federal officials released a report in 2007 on new river management rules, their estimates of future risks were rosier, showing minimal odds of reservoirs reaching low levels. The report cited studies predicting declines in river flow with climate change, saying that while those projections “are of great interest, additional research is both needed and warranted to quantify the uncertainty of these estimates.”
People walk along a narrow stretch of rushing water.
The Colorado River flows over rocks along its banks at Lees Ferry, a narrow stretch that marks the divide between the river's upper and lower basins. (Luis Sinco / Los Angeles Times)
In a 2008 study, scientists Tim Barnett and David Pierce of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography wrote that if climate models were correct, the Colorado River would “continue to lose water in the future,” with its flow likely declining 10% to 30% over the next 30 to 50 years. Those estimates turned out to match, if conservatively, the 20% decline in flow that has occurred since 2000.
Barnett and Pierce estimated that if current allocations stayed the same, there was a 50% chance the usable water supply in Lake Mead and Lake Powell, the country’s two largest reservoirs, would be gone by 2021. They titled their study “When Will Lake Mead Go Dry?”
They said that annually the region was taking out about 1 million acre-feet of water more than the river was providing, which they warned was “simply not sustainable.” Barnett and Pierce wrote that time was short to decide how to use a reduced water supply, and the alternative would be a “major societal and economic disruption in the desert southwest.”
Discussing the research, Barnett said: “You have to wonder if the civilization we've built in the desert Southwest is sustainable in the future.”
The scientists’ findings, however, were discounted at the time by some water managers. Terry Fulp, regional director for the federal Bureau of Reclamation, said he disagreed with the study’s assumption that climate models were sensitive or refined enough to project regional effects, and the agency’s own studies didn’t project such severe declines.
Some Southern California water officials said people shouldn’t panic over the report, pointing to ongoing water-saving efforts and the past winter’s above-average snowpack. Roger Patterson, an assistant manager of the Metropolitan Water District, was quoted as saying that back-to-back winters like that could largely refill the reservoirs.
In another study in 2009, Barnett and Pierce found that if human-caused climate change continued to make the Southwest drier as projected, the reduced river flow would mean significant shortages. Pierce said shortfalls could be avoided “if the river's users agree on a way to reduce their average water use.”
But that didn’t happen, at least not on the scale the researchers said was necessary.
The silhouette of a wedge of rock.
Visitors climb rock formations near the Colorado River at Lees Ferry. (Luis Sinco / Los Angeles Times)
“The scientists have been raising the warning flag for quite a while now,” said Jennifer Pitt of the National Audubon Society.
Pitt said for years she and other conservationists urged water managers to look more at the climate models. And although officials gradually incorporated more climate science in their projections, she said, the institutions that manage the river clearly didn’t embrace the red flags soon enough.
A 2012 study by the Bureau of Reclamation discussed estimates of reduced water supplies due to climate change, but Pitt said the severity of the projections was muted in the report’s summary.
Even as the reservoirs dropped, she said, there were other reasons why representatives of states and water districts resisted change.
“Each state and each water user has an inclination to fight to defend their access to water,” Pitt said, and this drive has weighed against “the need to defend the reliability of the entire system.”
The Colorado River has long been overallocated, with so much water diverted that its delta in Mexico dried up decades ago, leaving only small remnants of its once-vast wetlands.
A speedboat and a personal watercraft on the Colorado River.
Boaters cross the Arizona-California border on the Colorado River near Needles. (Luis Sinco / Los Angeles Times)
In studies during the last decade, scientists have homed in on what climate models indicate about the river’s future, finding that roughly half the decline in flow has been due to warmer temperatures; that climate change is driving the “aridification” of the Southwest; that warming could take away more than one-fourth of the average flow by 2050; and that for each additional 1 degree Celsius (1.8 degrees Fahrenheit), the river’s flow is likely to decrease about 9%.
As the West endured more hot and dry years, the few wet winters failed to produce the sort of rebound that water managers had hoped for. As water kept flowing to growing cities and farmlands producing hay, lettuce and other crops, the reservoirs continued to drop.
Facing shortages, state officials in 2019 signed a set of agreements laying out plans for sharing in water reductions. When that wasn’t enough, they signed another deal last year.
But with Lake Mead and Lake Powell now just 27% full and declining toward new lows, the federal government has stepped in and ordered the seven states to come up with plans to cut water use by 2 million to 4 million acre-feet, the equivalent of roughly 15% to 30% of total annual diversions in the U.S. and Mexico.
Even long before scientists began studying the effects of rising temperatures on the river, various people raised concerns that there wouldn’t be sufficient water — among them John Wesley Powell, leader of the historic 1869 expedition through the Grand Canyon; scientist Eugene Clyde LaRue, whose warnings about insufficient water went unheeded during negotiations that led to the 1922 Colorado River Compact; and the writer Wallace Stegner, who warned in 1985 that the West was growing “beyond our limits” and that “There is just not enough water.”
Leaders of tribes have also spoken out against overexploitation of the river while pushing for years to have a bigger say in decisions about water management.
Scenes around Lake Mead as persistent drought drives water levels to their lowest point in history.
Visitors to Hoover Dam can see where severe and prolonged drought conditions have exposed the rocky sides of Black Canyon and the intake towers that feed the dam's power generators. (Luis Sinco / Los Angeles Times)
Some environmental activists have pointed out that in 1954 California water lawyer Northcutt Ely testified in Congress to oppose the construction of Glen Canyon Dam and another proposed dam, saying they were unnecessary, would lead to more losses from evaporation and increase the “overdraft” of the water supply.
John Weisheit, co-founder of the group Living Rivers, said Ely’s overarching goal was watershed sustainability. The concerns Ely raised nearly seven decades ago, he said, have only been compounded by climate change.
Living Rivers and two other groups filed a lawsuit in 2019 to challenge the federal government’s approach to managing Lake Powell, arguing that officials didn’t sufficiently consider climate change. They demanded the government consider the alternative of decommissioning Glen Canyon Dam.
Weisheit recalled telling federal officials at a public meeting in 2005 that the reservoirs were going to go empty, “and they laughed at me.”
Weisheit said water managers knew how bad the situation was years ago but have failed to rein in water demands to match the limited supply.
Udall said he has been frustrated that federal agencies continue to use 30 years as a baseline “climate normal,” because data from the late 20th century, which was cooler and wetter, “blinds us to the period we’re in right now.”
Federal officials have been using what they call “stress test” hydrology in their projections in recent years, leaving out earlier 20th century records while considering data going back to 1988. But Udall said this approach has continued to yield some projections that are too rosy, an issue that he said government specialists appear to be working to address.
A view of a striated, red and tan bluff.
Valley of the Gods is a scenic sandstone valley in southeastern Utah near the San Juan River, a major tributary of the Colorado River. (Luis Sinco / Los Angeles Times)
Udall said he has looked over charts showing the reservoirs’ declines over the last 23 years and has wondered at what point “should we have been smarter?” That point, he said, was about a decade ago.
“We’re out of time,” he said. The solutions now will have to be “harsh and drastic.”
Looking back at the 2019 deal, the years of negotiations culminated in an agreement that reflected what was politically possible at the time, said John Entsminger, general manager of the Southern Nevada Water Authority.
“No one was willing to take bigger cuts then,” Entsminger said.
Entsminger said that in 2014, when he started leading the agency, he and his staff were focused on climate projections and the risks of low reservoir levels. That was why, in addition to prioritizing conservation, the agency spent $522 million building a new low-level pumping plant and intake at Lake Mead, which would allow Las Vegas to keep accessing water if the reservoir dropped to “dead pool,” a level at which water would no longer pass through Hoover Dam.
In 2015, when the water authority endorsed the project, Entsminger said he and others hoped they would never have to turn on the pumping plant. But they switched it on this year, and now Las Vegas is relying on the deeper intake.
Entsminger said many water managers who came before him had seen full reservoirs in the 1980s and operated under the assumption that a couple of snowy winters could bring a rebound. In hindsight, he said, “clearly, we should have had bigger cuts sooner.”
Now every water supplier needs to consider how to use less, he said.
“This is a tragedy of the commons situation,” he said. “If we don't all pitch in and make corrections, Lake Mead and Lake Powell could get to dead pool.”
This story originally appeared in Los Angeles Times.

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SpaceNut · 2022-07-16 14:28:59

I think the most important is that while we realize that we need water we forgot that it was being used to create power. It's that connection to power creation that is going to be next for the grid that will become strained to get it from outside of the area as the amount of water drops for power creation.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-16 18:36:57

For SpaceNut re #253

You've certainly got a valid point!

However, that long article makes ** very ** clear that humans in that Region have "not realized" a whole ** lot ** of things that Ma Nature has been quietly saying for decades.

Power is just ** one ** of the applications of fresh flowing water that we humans have taken for granted, until now we can't.

The early part of this topic was devoted to study of how to provide plenty of fresh potable water to Phoenix and to the region, using nuclear power and the inexhaustible supply from the oceans. The onsite person has (apparently) given up, in the face of the social problem to be solved.

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SpaceNut · 2022-07-16 20:00:56

Its multi-faceted in that the pipeline costs plus a power plant (preferably nuclear) to do the work are not a quick solution or of low cost.

The distance to any source of water is part of the pipeline cost.

The other comes from not in my back yard fears of the nuclear plant.

So, finding a means to provide at the lowest of cost possible is what will be worked.

I suspect of power it's going to be solar concentrated with the next being where the shortest route to get the water being the next.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-17 06:08:23

For SpaceNut ... I read post #255 and let it sit on the back burner over night.

Regarding speed and cost ....

The situation our friends and neighbors are facing took years to develop. A quick fix is unlikely, no matter what course of action is chosen.

The cost of inaction is going to be astonishing.

The cost of ** further ** inaction is going to be awe inspiring.

The lowest cost possible is NOT what the people of the region need to be considering right now.

Which brings me to the commercial opportunity.

When humans fail to provide for themselves, as so often happens, a resourceful entrepreneur can provide the needed good or service, for a fee.

You, as an individual, have as much opportunity to become that entrepreneur as anyone else.

However, as an entrepreneur, you will have to weigh risks of various kinds, and make judgments with a reasonably low error band. You'll need to enlist allies with the resources needed to put the plan you devise into motion.

Should you decide to venture down this path, even if only to float an idea or two, I'm hoping this forum is a good place for a trial balloon.

Walmart is already supplying bottled water for (about) $1.00 USD per container, or $830 per ton.

Your venture would need to perform better than that, but the market seems assured, since the good folks of Arizona appear unlikely to solve the problem themselves.

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SpaceNut · 2022-07-17 07:15:51

How Does Offshore Pipeline Installation Work?

https://www.offshoreengineering.com/oil … ipelaying/

Pipe Installation Manhours for Steel Pipes

of course, material type would change lifetime and repair maintenance costs.

cost of the water container plastic is about 4 cents but it's a use once even with recycling as that has become questionable in most communities.
http://martinsplastics.net/en/plastic-c … wholesale/

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-17 07:43:30

For SpaceNut re #257 and topic .... there ** is ** an option available to folks outside the US ....

Mexico is a sovereign nation, able to manage it's own affairs, despite having neighbors who can be difficult to live with.

Mexico ** has ** an unlimited supply of sea water, which is also true of California and Texas.

An entrepreneur in Mexico (or able to set up shop in Mexico) could supply unlimited fresh potable water to the United States via pipeline, for whatever price the US customers are willing to pay.

The price of inaction by US customers is thus dependence upon an outside provider.

That situation is not unusual in the world.

Many nations do not have particular resources, so they trade with other nations who have them. This has been going on since the beginning of recorded history, and probably long before.

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tahanson43206 · 2022-07-17 08:00:20

For SpaceNut re fresh potable water for the residents of Phoenix and countless others...

Your work in another topic, to learn how to prepare fresh water given undrinkable water, has potential to assist others.

The ideal system does NOT exist on Earth, and you have as good a chance as anyone to develop a solution, or more likely, to lead a team that does.

The most difficult problem for anyone to overcome is the conviction that the individual is powerless in the face of human ignorance and indifference.

The fact is that ALL progress throughout human history has occurred because individuals momentarily lost the conviction of powerlessness, and allowed themselves a few moments to invent solutions to whatever problems they faced.

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SpaceNut · 2022-07-17 10:40:04

Solve the problem with the cost constraints comes to mind.

What is are the costs for trucked in bottled water from any place that the water will come from?
Trucking from a desalination plant would be about the same but lower due to how one would package the water in a large tank rather than bottles.

I have given the container cost. What are the costs for the trucks, packaging for transport, labor on either end ect plus water equipment costs in addition to the water in each bottle. Of course, Walmart needs to make a profit on each, so what is that amount?

How would you make it lower in costs since you need 150 gallons a day or the same in dollars?

What is the current household water costs that one would need to target for a pipeline?

Pipelines would need to content with frost heaving in the spring, freezing with in the winter possible in the mountains all of which is engineering by materials selection used where the pipeline runs.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-17 10:54:43

For SpaceNut re #260

Thank you for providing these useful ToDo! items!

Since Walmart is an existing service, which has priced the product so the can deliver it where it is needed, at a quality that customers accept and demand, in a volume that is roughly matched to demand, we should be able to develop a competitive service that comes in lower, at the same quality, and in increased quantity due to expected increased demand.

Our onsite contact in Phoenix has a different set of needs, since he is trying to find a solution that delivers vast quantities of clean water to agricultural customers. Walmart is NOT (ever) going to address ** that ** market.

However, the market opportunity is very clearly in sight, for delivery of fresh, potable water to citizens of Phoenix, and every other part of the American Southwest, where poor planning has led to shortages.

The list of issues to be addressed you have provided in Post #260 gives us all (readers and members alike) a sense of how to go about designing and then building a commercial enterprise to meet the present and expected future demand.

In another topic I have proposed flying in fresh water from where it is not needed to where it is needed. For this topic, I think it makes sense to follow your lead, and to think about ground transportation for fresh water.

The pace of automation of freight carriers is such that by the time a business plan is in place, the delivery of truck loads of fresh water (from whatever source) seems (to me at least) quite likely to be practical.

Railroads may well prove to be worth considering. A railcar full of fresh, potable water should be sold at auction when it arrives in Phoenix. Entrepreneurs will bid on each carload just as they bid today on carloads of wheat or any other commodity. Distribution of product will insure the entrepreneurs make a profit, and the rail delivery company will make ** sure ** of a profit before releasing contents to the buyer.

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SpaceNut · 2022-07-17 16:16:31

Agricultural can make use of a lesser quality product since grey water is used and higher mineral content can also be tolerated as well.
So long as it's clear of pathogens,

https://sustainableagriculture.net/fsma … ral-water/

https://www.fao.org/3/T0234E/T0234E01.htm
WATER QUALITY EVALUATION

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_ … 012448.pdf
Water Quality and Agriculture Status, Conditions, and Trends

good question to google on rail vs truck volumes and costs.

https://www.rsilogistics.com/blog/compa … -vs-truck/

https://www.liveabout.com/rail-transit- … ts-2798796

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-17 17:18:17

For SpaceNut re #262

Thanks for the numerous links in #262

I followed both the rail/truck links and found them both interesting and informative.

The suggestion that jumped out at me from the liveabout article was the possibility of multi-modal operation for a line from Mexico into the US.

I don't see any point in an investor seeking to offer agriculture grade water. The profits would surely be in potable water for consumer use.

If the farmers of Arizona and other Southwestern states want fresh water for their crops, they're going to have to find a way to pay for it, or do without.

In the end, consumers of fresh foods are going to be absorbing the costs associated with production. That's how it's always been, and barring the occasional dictatorial fiat, that is how it's always going to be.

The vender/entrepreneur we are discussing in this topic is going to be able to organize production and delivery of potable water to customers who can afford it.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-17 17:27:46

For SpaceNut re Railroad Lines in Mexico that reach Arizona

Thanks (again) for Post #262, with links to articles about rail lines vs trucking

http://m.bnsf.com/bnsf-resources/pdf/sh … em-map.pdf

Google found a map showing what appear to be railroad lines that would be able to carry fresh water by the car load from the Sea of Cortez to Phoenix.

It might not even be necessary to employ trucks except at the delivery end. A multi-modal operation could carry tank trucks of water from the Sea of Cortex to Phoenix on flat cars, and then the trucks could deliver to customers like hotels, apartment buildings and wealthy individuals.

This approach would eliminate the entire question of pipelines until the volume of business proves sufficient to justify the investment.

Update at 19:36 local time ...

SpaceNut, I liked the implications of the ideas you suggested so much, that I wrote to our contact in Phoenix. I'll let you know if anything comes of it. I'm guardedly hopeful, because it appears that entrepreneurship is alive and well in Phoenix!

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City of Phoenix Home Page 1 Logo 5383d3 Both 1
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Pay It 3 Main Footer Link 2.00000000000000 5383d3 Both 1 PHX...
Employment 4 Main Footer Link 3.00000000000000 5383d3 Both 1 Empl...
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tahanson43206 · 2022-07-17 19:23:01

For SpaceNut re Entrepreneurship opportunities around water in Phoenix ....

Upon re-reading Post #264, I noticed the snippet about augmented reality ... I imagined a mobile camera travelling with a tank load of water from the Sea of Cortez to Phoenix, and realized it is possible for individual ** small ** investor groups to fund an individual tank load, and track it's progress through the Internet, from filling in Mexico to delivery in Phoenix.

The opportunity would appear to exist for small investors to participate in delivery of water to customers. A large investor would be needed to create the infrastructure (the legal and administrative framework) but the result could be similar to Uber or Lift ... the online organization provides digital coordination and the legal structure, and the individual investors fund shipments and receive proceeds after delivery to the customers.

In thinking about this further, the investors need NOT be limited to folks in Arizona. They could be anywhere in the world.

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SpaceNut · 2022-07-18 19:35:08

I was reminded of the old steam engine water towers which were needed to be able to keep the old coal burning engines going.

here is a typical water rail car tank

Now that we can see how one might be filled from an overhead boom set to line up with all the cars for a given trip. We need to see how to empty them equally as quick.

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-18 19:53:44

For SpaceNut re #266

First, thanks for the neat follow up to the railroad idea for delivery of sea water to Phoenix for high end customer suppliers.

Those images really add a sense of reality to the glimmer of an idea.

Second ... the onsite rep says that the map I found may have been of historical value, but at present, there may in fact be NO railroad in that route. He wrote a resource that might be able to confirm one way or the other.

The working theory I have on this at the moment, assuming there still ** is ** a railroad, is that loading the cars and delivering them to the border could be handled entirely by citizens of Mexico. The cars themselves would (presumably) be owned by US citizens, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case, as long as the cars pass US railroad requirements, including such licensing as may be required.

The right of way for a railroad appears to have existed at one time, so (presumably) a line could be relaid over that terrain, but the investment would be a burden, similar to the burden of trying to lay a pipe.

I was hoping there might be a ** least cost ** way to get a pilot project started with high end customers willing to pay Walmart rates for a tank car load of water. If the pilot project can succeed with small lot shipments and high end customers, then the kinks might be worked out so that costs could be reduced and the customer base increased.

thanks again for those neat images!

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SpaceNut · 2022-07-18 20:10:50

It appears that this map may healp
R.d0b99237a6c0eb1bcb2a5bcb110fba0e?rik=xJVawbtDXcnbDw&riu=http%3a%2f%2ffarm5.staticflickr.com%2f4058%2f4274195776_c55b9899a3.jpg&ehk=weyu%2fKekR5dV6c62HjNxn2XeiEpOJATQkJW7XjdXjDs%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0&sres=1&sresct=1

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kingmanca … 274195776/

The rules on rails that have been abandoned most of the time goes to the city and state for the land rights which may still have a viable rail track.

https://www.bnsf.com/ship-with-bnsf/map … -maps.page

https://www.bnsf.com/bnsf-resources/pdf … rk-map.pdf

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-18 21:14:30

For SpaceNut .... thanks for those map links!

Here is the one I found, which you may have missed ...

http://m.bnsf.com/bnsf-resources/pdf/sh … em-map.pdf

The date on this map is 2018, and the lines in Mexico appear to be viable.

However, the line from Mexico to Phoenix looks iffy ... I can only judge by the thickness of the line and the coloring.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-18 21:40:22

For SpaceNut ...

Several of the links you found were for or from bnsf.

I decided to contact the company. I found a network map that shows a bnsf extension to Phoenix from the Northwest, but nothing beyond that. However, there ** must ** be railroads South of Phoenix.

I decided to fill out the company contact form, to see if anyone there might be willing to give us some guidance...

This inquiry is on behalf of a study team thinking about water supply on Mars. The problems and challenges of water supply in desert locations on Earth are often the focus of attention, in our attempts to anticipate the even greater challenges on Mars. The specific question that came up recently is:
Is there a rail line between the East coast of the Sea of Cortex and Phoenix, Arizona? Can you direct us to a resource with guidance? The purpose is to discover the potential for rail line shipment of car loads of sea water from the Sea of Cortez to Phoenix. It would seem reasonable to suppose that there is a market for delivery of water now, and that market will continue to grow over time as the climate crisis deepens, and supplies of rain water continue to fade.
Thanks for any assistance you can provide!
Tahanson43206
Junior Moderator
NewMars Forum
***
NewMars Forum is an authorized activity of the Mars Society (marssociety.org).

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-19 10:05:26

For SpaceNut re railroad inquiry ...

Our Phoenix contact wrote an email reporting on search of Spanish language web sites, looking for railroad information.

Nothing showed up yet, but that search inspired me to look for a railroad expediter. Google found a surprising number, so I picked one more or less at random.

https://schneider.com/freight-quote/thank-you

I filled out their contact form, requesting information about an inter-modal shipment of a tank car load of sea water from the Sea of Cortez to Phoenix.

It is possible (in fact likely) my inquiry will be discarded, but in the unlikely event it is taken seriously, I have alerted my Phoenix contact to be aware I might ask for help.

Tor reprise ... what I am working on is a small scale (tank car) demonstration of the feasibility of turning a (small) profit by shipping a tank car load of sea water from the Sea of Cortez to Phoenix, and selling the harvest there at whatever price the market will bear.

There have been a (to me surprising) number of railroads in Mexico over the past 100+ years. but many have gone out of business.

A line to ship sea water to Phoenix would seem (to me at least) likely to have staying power, unless a pipeline is constructed, and considering the confusion of Americans, I find it difficult to imagine anyone getting their act together North of the Border.

Thus, the way is (apparently) open for entrepreneurs to fill the gap provided by climate change.

the operation could start with truck shipment where necessary, and rail where available, which is why intermodal seemed like a reasonable option.

Update at 15:12 local time:

Hello TaHanson43206,
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(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-20 11:23:07

For SpaceNut re railroad inquiry...

Google came up with this, when I asked for a shipping option from Sonora to Arizona ...

Ciudad Obregon is close to the coast.

Phoenix, AZ and Ciudad Obregón, Son. - Freight Rateshttps://www.commtrex.com › ... › Freight Rates
If you are a company in need of rail freight shipping from Phoenix to Ciudad Obregón or from Ciudad Obregón to Phoenix, Commtrex will work with our highly ...

I haven't followed the link yet, but note that rail is included in the snippet, so by deduction, I'm ** assuming ** there is a rail line between Phoenix and Ciudad Obregon. The route is probably NOT direct, but that may not be a problem, if the cost of shipping a tank car full of sea water is reasonable.

"Reasonable" in this context means (of course) if the customer will pay whatever the fee might be.

I'm hot on the trail of a Real Estate opportunity for sea water imported from the Sea of Cortez for high level residential neighborhoods.

It is often regarded as desirable to have a supply of water available for fire fighting, and sea water would work just as well as fresh water for that purpose, so (I'm assuming) a home owner's association in Phoenix might be willing to pay for imported sea water to fill the fire pond, as an alternative to using almost priceless fresh water for the purpose.

This is a camel's-nose-in-the-tent concept. Once a quantity of sea water is available in a high level residential community (as well as recreation opportunities) then a natural transition is to pull some of the sea water into the homes for home scale desalination.

I'll let you know if anything comes of this.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-20 11:34:24

For SpaceNut .... this is a follow up regarding rail service between Ciudad Obregon and Phoenix.

This is a preliminary inquiry to see if there is potential for Real Estate development in Phoenix. Due to ongoing climate change limits on fresh water, it seems possible that sea water might serve well for fire ponds for high end developments. These are usually developed as recreation and scenery enhancing features of high end developments. A related opportunity is to pull sea water from the retention pond, and to perform desalination for input to the home. This concept eliminates dependence upon the municipality for supply of fresh water, which is (as mentioned earlier) becoming less and less available.
(th)

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-07-21 19:09:28

I think if you find where the ends of the tracks stop that you will fall short of the water to draw from which means some sort of pipeline will be needed at the filling of the cars and then since time is money you will need a means to quickly dump the water so that you can take it away later.

What will it take to stabilize the Colorado River? AAZPL0t.img?h=768&w=1366&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

abstract report

tahanson43206 · 2022-07-21 19:43:33

For SpaceNut re #274

Neat picture of the Colorado River terrain!

We are in Phoenix topic ... our contact in Phoenix has written with feedback on the idea of bringing sea water from the Sea of Cortez in carload lots. At this point, the feedback has mostly been of a corrective nature, based upon my lack of knowledge of the details of how business is done in the Real Estate industry.

Meanwhile, in this and other topics, you've been generous in support, with links and suggestions.

In a recent post, you pointed out that if a rail line reaches all the way from Phoenix to the city near the coast of the Sea of Cortez, that line will not necessarily run anywhere near the actual sea.

If business were to develop, then building a spur to the coast would make sense. However, in the mean time, the intermodal form of transport would make sense. In this mode, a road transport vehicle (a water tank trailer) would be mounted on a flat car. That way, the trailer could be driven to the coast to load, and then driven from the terminal in Phoenix to the customer site.

I have not heard back from the transportation expeditor, but hope to hear back eventually. The costs should be knowable for the rail route, and the costs for the truck travel portion can be estimated.

The concept I am offering to our contact in Phoenix is to start operations with the smallest possible unit of sea water that would make sense for a business enterprise. The impending dearth of fresh water in Phoenix ** should ** provide financial incentive for a trial of the proposal, and if the basic concept proves sound, then cost saving measures can be introduced.

Ultimately, a pipe line could be justified, but I think that is many years if not decades in the future.

On the other hand, the Great Salt Lake project seems must likely to be justified with a pipeline immediately.

(th)

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