New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#51 2021-05-19 18:12:03

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,024

Re: Business Opportunity

The universal charging station and battery operated construction equipment seems to be something that needs to be reduced to a product that could be built and designed for ease of use for mars....
This is something for the crew of 17 mission....

Offline

#52 2021-06-01 19:44:51

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,024

Re: Business Opportunity

Charging EV batteries while traveing is a pain first to find a station and then to find something to do once there for the hour plus that you might need.

Tesla Could Be Launching Restaurants At Charging Stations: Here's Why

The stations offer a 15-minute recharge for around 200 miles of driving range.

Of course we now have other options coming soon as  7-Eleven to install 500 EV charging stations by the end of 2022 advantage in choosing to install DC fast chargers as opposed to slower level 2 chargers

EVgo Launches Option to Reserve Charging Spots

Offline

#53 2021-06-22 19:12:05

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,024

Re: Business Opportunity

No hurry for fuel station owners to install electric vehicle chargers

His EV charging station will cost $125,000 to $150,000 to install. That's "no comparison" to a double sided gas pump, which can be constructed for $20,000, Hamadi said.

He expects it will take seven years to start making money off the charger, whereas a new gas pump would turn a profit in less than a year.

With the cost of the car being spread out over those same number of years....

Offline

#54 2021-07-25 16:53:50

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,024

Re: Business Opportunity

Form the subaru website on hybrids of which this year is there first model year with a hybrid

When plugged into a 120V household outlet (Level 1), the Crosstrek Hybrid can take approximately five hours to completely charge a fully depleted battery. When using a 240V outlet (Level 2), a full charge only takes approximately two hours.

Offline

#55 2021-07-31 21:14:02

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,024

Offline

#56 2021-08-01 20:07:00

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,024

Re: Business Opportunity

Where does the infrastructure compromise deal leave EV charging?

The bipartisan compromise on infrastructure cuts in half President Joe Biden’s call for $15 billion to build 500,000 electric vehicle charging outlets, raising the stakes as the administration seeks to win auto industry cooperation on anti-pollution rules to curb climate change. The Senate legislation provides $7.5 billion in federal grants to build a national network of charging outlets, an amount that analysts say is a good start but isn't enough to spur widespread electric vehicle adoption.

Currently there are just over 43,000 charging stations in the U.S. with more than 106,000 outlets, according to the Department of Energy. Fully electric vehicles represented just 2.2% of U.S. new vehicle sales during the first half of this year, or about 1.1 million vehicles on the road.

Offline

#57 2021-08-01 20:35:47

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,208

Re: Business Opportunity

For SpaceNut re #56

Assuming the compromise goes through, the better skilled money grabbers will scarf up what is provided.

If you have a friend in the money grabbing business, this would be a good time to ask the person to set up a charging station close by.  It can't hurt to ask.

(th)

Offline

#58 2021-08-11 11:16:06

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,208

Re: Business Opportunity

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/finance … 02869.html

In addition to manufacturing hydrogen fuel cell powertrains, Hyzon is also investing in hydrogen fuel production hubs, a key piece of infrastructure for technology uptake. In April, the company signed a MOU for a joint venture with renewable fuels company Raven SR for up to 100 hydrogen production hubs. Gordon confirmed the first two will be in the Bay Area.

Aria Alamalhodaei
Wed, August 11, 2021, 12:12 PM
Hydrogen-powered heavy-duty truck company Hyzon Motors said Wednesday it is ramping up operations in the wake of its merger with blank-check firm Decarbonization Plus Acquisition Corp., including shipping its first trucks to European customers.

The company, which reported second-quarter earnings Wednesday, said it is also preparing to start its first customer trials in the United States.

The production of Hydrogen is going to need ** lots ** of energy.

That would seem to be a good fit for "personal" 1 Megawatt reactors that can be leased for 10 years and swapped out for new ones.

(th)

Offline

#59 2021-08-11 19:32:23

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,024

Re: Business Opportunity

It was mentioned by my son that the infrastructure bill wants to get federal tax money based on miles for the electric vehicle since they get nothing currently for road use on the all electric vehicles.
That said there will be a cut off point where the electrical tax and the gas tax use will be the same but at that point the hybrid will become double taxed since it has the possibility to be refueled by electrical connection....

Offline

#60 2021-08-12 17:40:06

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: Business Opportunity

SpaceNut wrote:

It was mentioned by my son that the infrastructure bill wants to get federal tax money based on miles for the electric vehicle since they get nothing currently for road use on the all electric vehicles.
That said there will be a cut off point where the electrical tax and the gas tax use will be the same but at that point the hybrid will become double taxed since it has the possibility to be refueled by electrical connection....

An often forgotten fact when comparing battery electric to ICE vehicles, is that fuel is taxed, electricity used to charge the vehicle is not.  At some point, electricity used for vehicle applications will need to be taxed.  Or some other means employed to collect revenues.  When tax is added to electricity, the economics of BEVs, already marginal, will look a lot less favourable.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

Offline

#61 2021-08-12 19:48:37

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,024

Re: Business Opportunity

All the more reason to look at owning your own solar charging station so as to not need to pay for the power used in the vehicle at all....

Offline

#62 2021-08-25 12:21:26

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,208

Re: Business Opportunity

The need for liquid oxygen to support the space industry was foreseeable. 

The need for medical oxygen in the quantities required to fight the pandemic was not.

Space launches are going to increase, and all liquid fueled launches are going to need LOX.

Oxygen is a byproduct of use of nuclear fission power to produce hydrogen from sea water.

It would appear that an investment in a robust facility to deliver hydrogen and oxygen from nuclear fission would enjoy a guaranteed market for many years to come.

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/sp … 17464.html

Kate Duffy
Wed, August 25, 2021, 6:07 AM
Gwynne Shotwell, COO of SpaceX
Gwynne Shotwell said SpaceX is experiencing a lack of liquid oxygen which is required for rocket launches. Dia Dipasupil/Getty Images
SpaceX president Gwynne Shotwell said the company was low on liquid oxygen for rocket launches.

Liquid oxygen is also used to treat COVID-19 patients in hospitals.

"We certainly are going to make sure hospitals have the liquid oxygen they need," Shotwell said.

See more stories on Insider's business page.

SpaceX President Gwynne Shotwell said on Tuesday that liquid oxygen shortages were making it more difficult to launch rockets - and that people should email her if they have some spare.

Liquid oxygen is key to getting SpaceX's rockets off the ground. The substance, combined with cryogenic liquid methane, fuels SpaceX's raptor engines, which provide the thrust required for liftoff.

It's also required in hospitals to treat patients infected with COVID-19, as well as for water treatment, and supplies are running low. On Friday, the city of Orlando asked residents to limit their water use so that it could divert more liquid oxygen to hospitals.

Read more: The investment chief running the first pure-play space ETF breaks down 3 reasons to invest in the industry - and explains why the emerging industry's volatility draws retail investors to passive funds

"We're actually going to be impacted this year with the lack of liquid oxygen for launch," Shotwell said during a Space Symposium panel, per a video uploaded to YouTube by ExpovistaTV. "We certainly are going to make sure hospitals have the liquid oxygen they need," she said, without elaborating.

"For anybody that has liquid oxygen to spare, would you send me an email?" she added.

(th)

Offline

#63 2021-08-25 15:04:45

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,854

Re: Business Opportunity

Musk now becoming an energy market disruptor by through Autobidder software that allows EV battery owners to input electricity into the grid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MFfttxFI5M


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#64 2021-08-25 15:29:41

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,854

Re: Business Opportunity

I still think there is a definite opening for luxury watch assembly on Mars. Doesn't have to be from scratch. The parts could be sent to Mars and the final assembly (by robot) would take place there. A genuine Mars gem could be placed in the watchface. The back of the watch could be engraved with "Made on Mars" with the date, location and nature of the gem.

The interest I think would be principally in manufacturing men's watches given Mars's associations with male attributes.

The economics are good: luxury watches are high value, low mass and low volume articles - perfect for Mars. 

If it costs say $40 million to get a Starship to Mars and safely back again ($400 per Kg), and if the parts weighed 250 grams, that would be 4 units per Kg, so with a 100 ton cargo load, you could ship out 400,000 separate watch parts packages. If we assumed that cargo transport to and from Mars was 10% of the cost of the watch, you would need to generate sales of some $400 million to cover the transport costs.

Watch prices vary hugely, but at the super luxury end of the market we are talking 10,000s of dollars. If we assumed, say, a wholesale price of $20,000 for these remarkable watches, that would be a total value of $8,000 million.

The annual luxury watch market in the USA is about $900 million.  So $9 billion in a decade. Looking around the world, there will be big markets in other regions such as Europe,  China, and India. We could probably say there is a decade long market of around $40 billion globally.

Now, I am not saying one could sell all these watches at this price. I think you could be looking to  have a range of watch types going from super luxury watches in the $1000 to $2000 range.

I think we could think in more modest terms of perhaps 20,000 watches per annum being produced at an annual wholesale price value of $100 million (average $5000 per watch). Cargo requirement would be 10 tons every two years.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#65 2021-08-26 16:28:22

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: Business Opportunity

Luxury watch making is not an easy market to break into.  This video gives some insight into what designing and making such a watch involves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDLd3Rp0_qs

A very complex and capital intensive activity, requiring hundreds of precision made parts, created and assembled using bespoke equipment and very specialised labour.  I'm not saying it cannot be done.  But to start this sort of operation on another planet will be even more difficult than it is on Earth.  The company in the video doesn't exactly have a lot of competitors, even on a planet of nearly 8 billion people and an industrial base capable of supplying exotic materials and specialist equipment to almost any specification.  Maybe you could interest an existing manufacturer with the proposal of moving their base of operations to Mars?  Or establishing a hub there?  It isn't impossible.  But the more watches you then make on Mars, the more the novelty of a Mars-made watch will wear off.  The same with other novelty items.  They eventually cease to be novel.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-08-26 16:30:41)


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

Offline

#66 2021-08-26 17:28:28

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,854

Re: Business Opportunity

Don't think you've followed what I am suggesting! You don't start it all by yourself. You make a deal with Omega or whoever.

You think companies like Omega are going to let a competitor steal a lead here?...I think there will be a rush to partner with a Mars business.

Let's say Space X create a subsidiary "Mars Trading Inc" (MTI)  - then MTI would partner with a watch company (let's say Omega) to produce the watches  on Mars and ship them back to Earth. Nearly all the prep will be done by Omega on Earth.  A robotic final assembly unit will be shipped out to Mars. It won't have to be very large because the product is not very large.  Gemstones will be sourced on Mars and, again using robots, will be prepared for setting in the watches. A final robotic assembly point will package them for the return journey to Earth.

The major selling point will be that these watches contain (valuable) material from Mars and have travelled all the way from that planet to Earth.

People are impressed enough by a "diving" watch. They are going to be even more impressed to look at a watch that has in reality come all the way from Mars and contains Mars gemstones.

Maybe the watch will be able to give you "Mars time" as well as Earth time as a gimmick.

There will be a provenance certificate with the watch to add to the cachet of the product.

The only issue I can see is whether watches could survive the vibrations of launching and landing. I presume the answer is yes but there may be issues there.

Calliban wrote:

Luxury watch making is not an easy market to break into.  This video gives some insight into what designing and making such a watch involves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDLd3Rp0_qs

A very complex and capital intensive activity, requiring hundreds of precision made parts, created and assembled using bespoke equipment and very specialised labour.  I'm not saying it cannot be done.  But to start this sort of operation on another planet will be even more difficult than it is on Earth.  The company in the video doesn't exactly have a lot of competitors, even on a planet of nearly 8 billion people and an industrial base capable of supplying exotic materials and specialist equipment to almost any specification.  Maybe you could interest an existing manufacturer with the proposal of moving their base of operations to Mars?  Or establishing a hub there?  It isn't impossible.  But the more watches you then make on Mars, the more the novelty of a Mars-made watch will wear off.  The same with other novelty items.  They eventually cease to be novel.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#67 2021-08-27 04:44:46

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: Business Opportunity

Regarding vibration, payload protection solutions have been developed and appear to have been successful.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a451544.pdf

One important advantage of lift off from Mars is that staging will not be employed.  This is highly beneficial for any fragile payloads as it is typically very violent, with shock loadings of several thousand g.  For a watch, with internal mounts allowing deformation of ~1mm, that is equivalent to being dropped from several metres.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-08-27 04:51:04)


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

Offline

#68 2021-08-27 15:38:35

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,854

Re: Business Opportunity

"This new topic is intended to provide a place for forum members to post about opportunities that are or may become available on either Mars or Earth"

We're looking at the feasibility of this business opportunity that I outlined.

I think it's a strong idea.

SpaceNut wrote:

please check topic scope as we are off topic...


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#69 2021-08-27 15:51:49

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,208

Re: Business Opportunity

For Louis re #69

Thank you for continuing to develop your idea!  Calliban has (as I understand his post) pointed out that the kind of watch you are imagining is mechanical.

May I invite your consideration of a factor I have missed if you've already considered it. 

The people who will be transported to Mars are very likely to be the brightest and most reliably productive human beings their sponsors can find.

I expect that digital technology is far from fully developed.    As you surely know from your reading, nanotechnology is a field that considers mechanical actions at the atomic or molecular level.

Physical watches (with physical movements such as are made in Switzerland to this very day) are crude compared to nanotechnology.

If you stretch your thinking a bit, and allow for the presence of a lot of very bright people in a (relatively) small space, you may see in design of devices the same kind of astonishing performance that Elon Musk has been able to demonstrate with his team(s) of engineers and technicians on Earth in the space business, in the automobile business, in the Internet business, in the tunnel boring business, and whatever other ventures he has going.

In other words, if you lift your eyes a bit, and let go of an ancient technology that no one on Earth would want to actually ** wear **, you may be able to see the future market for Mars originated products.

(th)

Offline

#70 2021-08-27 19:26:30

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,024

Re: Business Opportunity

Being able to be a supplier of the electrical energy into a grid for others to buy is an opportunity thats seems to be fact as  Tesla wants to sell electricity directly to Texas households
The application follows the start of a big battery build out by Tesla in Angleton, Texas (near Houston), where it aims to connect a 100 megawatt energy storage system to the grid.

Offline

#71 2021-08-28 06:53:36

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,854

Re: Business Opportunity

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele … -2027.html

The global watch market is expected to grow to $73 billion in 2027.  That's a lot of people who do still want to wear them. Lift your eyes a little and you will see that humans are social primates. Social primates are highly status-conscious and wrist watches have been used as a status marker for at least 100 years.

Of course there will also be opportunities for other forms of time keeping. I think a lot of children might like an Apple style watch that told the time on Mars, and showed real-time (well almost) pics from the planet on the hour perhaps and maybe featured a daily update from one of the colonists.


tahanson43206 wrote:

For Louis re #69

Thank you for continuing to develop your idea!  Calliban has (as I understand his post) pointed out that the kind of watch you are imagining is mechanical.

May I invite your consideration of a factor I have missed if you've already considered it. 

The people who will be transported to Mars are very likely to be the brightest and most reliably productive human beings their sponsors can find.

I expect that digital technology is far from fully developed.    As you surely know from your reading, nanotechnology is a field that considers mechanical actions at the atomic or molecular level.

Physical watches (with physical movements such as are made in Switzerland to this very day) are crude compared to nanotechnology.

If you stretch your thinking a bit, and allow for the presence of a lot of very bright people in a (relatively) small space, you may see in design of devices the same kind of astonishing performance that Elon Musk has been able to demonstrate with his team(s) of engineers and technicians on Earth in the space business, in the automobile business, in the Internet business, in the tunnel boring business, and whatever other ventures he has going.

In other words, if you lift your eyes a bit, and let go of an ancient technology that no one on Earth would want to actually ** wear **, you may be able to see the future market for Mars originated products.

(th)

Last edited by louis (2021-08-28 07:00:06)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#72 2021-08-28 07:02:07

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,854

Re: Business Opportunity

That might argue for more robot assembly of the watches on Mars.

Calliban wrote:

Regarding vibration, payload protection solutions have been developed and appear to have been successful.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a451544.pdf

One important advantage of lift off from Mars is that staging will not be employed.  This is highly beneficial for any fragile payloads as it is typically very violent, with shock loadings of several thousand g.  For a watch, with internal mounts allowing deformation of ~1mm, that is equivalent to being dropped from several metres.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#73 2021-08-28 07:13:36

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,854

Re: Business Opportunity

I am wondering whether solar farming could become a "thing" on Mars.

There might be demand for homesteaders who would have their own habitats at some distance from the main settlement. Here they would lay out thin film PV, ensuring it was "tended", ie kept clear of dust etc.

The homesteader might charge up big battery packs with power from their PV fields  (I'm thinking maybe  between 500KwHs and 1 MwH of power) that would then be towed, slowly, by robot EVs to the main settlement where they would be hooked up to the urban grid. The robot EVs would use direct solar power as well as batteries.

These homesteads might be located anything from 10 to 100 miles away from the main settlement taking advantage of sites with very good insolation. 

There would be no need to lay down cabling and other electric equipment.

A 1000 homesteaders might be providing anything up to 1 GwH of power per hour.


SpaceNut wrote:

Being able to be a supplier of the electrical energy into a grid for others to buy is an opportunity thats seems to be fact as  Tesla wants to sell electricity directly to Texas households
The application follows the start of a big battery build out by Tesla in Angleton, Texas (near Houston), where it aims to connect a 100 megawatt energy storage system to the grid.

Last edited by louis (2021-08-28 08:51:42)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#74 2021-08-28 07:30:38

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,208

Re: Business Opportunity

For Louis re #71

In keeping with the Business theme of this topic, I will acknowledge the susceptibility of some humans to the unattractive behavior of strutting or preening.

In the United States, while that trait is still present, it is not as strong as it must be in Europe or other parts of the world where human frailties are celebrated.

If you are betting upon a market based upon humans who are so separated from others that they would seek to show superiority, I think you are making a poor bet. 

However, since you are from a culture where Strutting and Preening were achieved at a truly global level, and where hints of that past are still kept in place, I can understand why you would appear to think as you do.

You would find that if you were to bring that trait to the United States you would be hooted off the stage.

Best to stay where that behavior is considered normal.  Your potential market is smaller but certainly secure.

(th)

Offline

#75 2021-08-28 09:00:40

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,854

Re: Business Opportunity

You jest. You must be jesting...your nation has given us Yankee Doodle Dandy, the pink Cadillac, the supersized fridge, rap jewellery, the Lear jet, unblemished perfectly even teeth, the ten gallon hat, industrial-scale cosmetic surgery and the gold lame suit.  We can teach it nothing about strutting and preening.


tahanson43206 wrote:

For Louis re #71

In keeping with the Business theme of this topic, I will acknowledge the susceptibility of some humans to the unattractive behavior of strutting or preening.

In the United States, while that trait is still present, it is not as strong as it must be in Europe or other parts of the world where human frailties are celebrated.

If you are betting upon a market based upon humans who are so separated from others that they would seek to show superiority, I think you are making a poor bet. 

However, since you are from a culture where Strutting and Preening were achieved at a truly global level, and where hints of that past are still kept in place, I can understand why you would appear to think as you do.

You would find that if you were to bring that trait to the United States you would be hooted off the stage.

Best to stay where that behavior is considered normal.  Your potential market is smaller but certainly secure.

(th)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB