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#1 2020-09-08 10:18:33

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,313

Business Opportunity

For SpaceNut ...

This new topic is intended to provide a place for forum members to post about opportunities that are or may become available on either Mars or Earth

The article at the link below is about an unmet need that (in the American capitalist system) will be met by entrepreneurs who hope to earn income by providing a useful service.

While the unmet need is revealed on Earth as technology advances, it seems to me the design of recharging facilities (ie, pull through) makes a lot of sense.

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/towing-elec … 00334.html

I am specifically thinking of New Hampshire as a likely place for a test pull-through charging station.

(th)

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#2 2020-09-08 17:57:17

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,313

Re: Business Opportunity

A check with Google revealed that at least one vendor is studying the problem of long electric vehicle combinations.

https://electrek.co/2020/04/24/ev-charg … ssibility/

The article describes input from a handicapped gent who showed a technology representative what issues need to be addressed to insure accessibility.

(th)

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#3 2020-09-08 18:37:07

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: Business Opportunity

The first problem is knowing where the EV charging units are
https://evstationslocal.com/states/new- … rochester/

Then looking at the site for orientation for charging the vehicle like gas stations do....
Project would add Tesla chargers at Rochester Hannaford

AR-181139954.jpg


wrong pump set up....

Seems the crystal ball was cloudy that day for the future....

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#4 2020-09-08 18:54:33

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,614

Re: Business Opportunity

SpaceNut,

The orientation looks pretty good if you back into a parking space, which reduces the number of accidents with other vehicles and pedestrians in parking lots when it's time to leave (statistically speaking, fairly well proven at this point).  Putting them at the supermarket is also good since most people spend at least half an hour shopping for food.  I'd say their crystal ball is functioning well enough.

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#5 2020-09-08 19:07:21

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: Business Opportunity

Now try it with the RV or camper attached....

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#6 2020-09-09 08:44:36

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,313

Re: Business Opportunity

For SpaceNut re topic

I opened this new topic with a hope that it would lead to entrepreneurship.

While the number of active contributors (to this forum) is small (on average) the number of readers is (potentially) much larger.

While I understand entrepreneurship is not something the average person thinks of as a personal characteristic, I think it is reasonable to think of the search for employment on the part of a wage earner as a form of entrepreneurship.  While all the sales person has to offer is some existing skill, the potential to learn is often likely to be a major factor in evaluation by a potential employer.  The ability to learn is a characteristic of an entrepreneur. 

As kbd512 pointed out, existing electric vehicle charging stations were set up in the parking meter model, which assumed small vehicles able to drive into a narrow slot and connect with a short cable.

I'm wondering what the business opportunities might be for small business level entrepreneurs around the world who see the trend toward electric vehicle ownership as a viable market trend, and who are savvy enough to recognize that the parking stall model is a dead end.

The freeway toll booth model might be a better bet, if there is a way to implement it within the existing infrastructure.

Each of us (I'm thinking of forum contributors here) can (if so inclined) report potential sites for tollbooth style electric charging stations in our areas.

In the area where I live, over recent years, gasoline (and diesel) dispensing stations have been set up in toll booth style, often under rain canopies.

That model might be adapted for the electric vehicle charging market.

A way to approach that might be to combine a single charging station with an existing liquid dispensing facility, but safety is always paramount in my thinking, so it is possible the risks of fire outweigh the potential market benefits.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-09 08:45:08)

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#7 2020-09-09 20:47:21

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: Business Opportunity

To be an independent and not at the mercy of the other vendors of charging station equipment it will not be enough to set up stations anywhere as the highways would need to be negotiated with the states... But if you own your own product to make use of then the barriers for other locations get lower in cost and operation....As you would combine the stations with shopping and food stores to be able to pay the property taxes for the land area that the station would use....

Of course supplement income with petrol stations but on the other side of the property.

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#8 2020-09-10 06:37:55

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,313

Re: Business Opportunity

For SpaceNut re #7

Thank you for encouraging this new topic ...

It should be possible for anyone (with the appropriate credentials) to find a suitable site for a tollbooth style charging facility. 

I would like to invite participation in development of this business concept.  To the best of my knowledge, this is a distribution channel in the very earliest stage of recognition and development.  The best location for siting would be somewhere that electric vehicles are likely to become the dominant form of transportation for individuals and businesses.

In your post #7, you have identified some of the considerations that would need to go into site selection (on one hand) and partner selection on the other.

A critical role that must be played by government is helping to establish and to set standards.  Standards are the hallmark of civilization, and the United States has succeeded as an enterprise in large part because early citizens recognized the importance of standards, and moved firmly to create and support agencies whose responsibility is to set and enforce standards.

The marketplace is where the optimum design for electric charging ports will be discovered, but competitive designs probably exist already, and it will take some time for the alternatives to shake out.

In the mean time, there are investment opportunities for those with the tolerance for risk needed at the beginning stages of a technology.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-10 06:38:27)

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#9 2020-09-10 17:59:35

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: Business Opportunity

The issue for standards is already gone past the bridge in that Electric Vehicles already being made are proprietary for charging uses a difference charging connection and more as the terms of AC /DC come to mind for what is being charged which then follows with the rate of wattage and time for the current to go into the battery with out temperature damaging them.

https://thenextweb.com/shift/2020/07/21 … ing-lingo/

https://newmotion.com/en_GB/ac-charging-vs-dc-charging/

https://evcharging.enelx.com/news/blog/ … ing-levels

https://www.homechargingstations.com/le … -stations/

Where typical installations happenapplication_675932824

EV-charging-2.jpeg

iab3439zmpt01.png

https://www.sustainability.gov/pdfs/gui … arging.pdf

https://pluginamerica.org/federal-tax-c … -extended/

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/el … e-near-you

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#10 2020-09-11 05:03:52

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,313

Re: Business Opportunity

For SpaceNut re #9

Thank you for that graphic by G. Cabrera.

Six plug types is still too many ... Each represents an investment by the funders of the charging station.   The Tesla networks solve the problem by only supporting charging for their vehicles. 

I wonder what charging system is in use in the existing parking stall style charging facilities.  There would (surely) be only one style.

My guess is that it is the Tesla style.  Interesting!

Thanks again!

I asked Google, and there appears to be some information available. Here are two snippets...

Electric Vehicle Charging Guide | ChargeHubchargehub.com › electric-car-charging-guide
For every electric vehicle or plug-in hybrid, the use of a level 2 home charging ... In the United States, it all depends on the price of electricity and gas. ... These public chargers are often located near restaurants, shopping centers, parking spots, ... you should use a level 3 charger, as these charging stations will provide a lot ...

Can any electric car use Tesla charging stations?
Tesla 'Superchargers' on the other hand are a fast-charge DC EVSE system. Whilst they seemingly are fitted with the same Type 2 plug – these cannot be inserted into other manufacturers EVs, even if they are fitted with Type 2 sockets. ... As a consequence, Tesla Superchargers cannot currently charge a non-Tesla.Apr 3, 2019

Can non-Tesla electric cars use Tesla EV chargers? | The Driventhedriven.io › 2019/04/03 › can-non-tesla-electric-cars-us...

Can I charge my BMW i3 at a Tesla charging station?
Turns out that with the use of an adapter, other electric cars can indeed use the Tesla destinations chargers (Tesla HPWC): "BMW i3 charging on a Tesla HPWC EVSE using my adapter. This adapter also allows most non-Tesla electric vehicles to charge up where Tesla HPWC equipment is the only option available.Nov 9, 2015

BMW i3 Charging On Tesla HPWC - Video - InsideEVs

It would appear that the business "solution" may be to offer a single model of charging port, and provide adapters for purchase by customers.

New York published a pdf (35 pages)  "Site Design for Electric Vehicle Charging Stations"  [nyserda July 2012]

This report was made possible through the support of New York State
Energy Research and Development Authority

From page 2 ...

2 WHAT KIND OF EV SUPPLY EQUIPMENT IS AVAILABLE?
In the near term, EVs will use the following three categories of EV supply equipment
classified according to power levels and circuit requirements:

AC Level 1, up to 120-volt single-phase circuit with either 15-ampere (amp) or
20-amp configuration.
AC Level 2, 208-volt to 240-volt single-phase circuit with an 80-amp maximum,
but often using 40-amp rated circuits.
DC fast charger, converts AC power levels rated at 208 volts to 480 volts
(3-phase) to DC power to deliver up to 50 kilowatts at the EV’s battery voltage.

The focus of ** this ** topic is providing for pull-through (toll booth style) charging stations. 

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-11 05:12:46)

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#11 2020-09-12 08:27:52

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: Business Opportunity

The second image under the connection plugs on the left side of it shows the different power source which are not the same as I indicated in the beginning of post 7. That means a fresh charging system design that can be adapted or single style pumps for each type at this business option.

Land requirements for safety is a dry are that can be control as water is an enemy of those around power.
The structure would also require fire suppression equipment.
Since this is an operation simular to a gas station of which you could use credit or debt card and cash; we will need two systems of how to pay at the pump without the cost of adding a full time attendant.
The gas station would use a high rise structure that can protect those under it from inclement weather and from being destroyed by high winds since we need it high enough to have an RV or trailer under it while charging.

Of course in no particular order but I would favor a solar design as that is the free energy which increase profits for the owner.

australia-steel-structure-gas-station-4.jpg

main.jpg

20111228_124740.jpg

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#12 2020-09-12 08:49:51

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,313

Re: Business Opportunity

For SpaceNut re #11

Thanks for showing these examples of possible configurations for electric charging stations!

As a follow up, (and not promoting a particular brand) here is an example of a design that could be adapted for the inline charging capability that is the subject of this subtopic. 

get-go-650.png

Some BP stations in the region near me have solar panels in the canopy.  It should be noted that the amount of power collected by these systems is modest in the grand scale of business operation, and investment is required to save the energy collected in a form that can be released as needed.  For example, night time lighting is a reasonable application for solar energy collected by such a canopy.

This style of service station allows for inline charging.  I would imagine the rate charged to a customer might be adjusted depending upon whether or not there is  a queue.  In a gas station of the type shown, there is no surcharge for taking up two "ports" in the inline design, but gasoline refills typically take a few minutes, and I have never seen a queue at the station I visit most often (or at any local station, come to think of it).

However, a charging station is (most likely) going to take longer per customer visit, so a queue management plan would seem reasonable.

Edit#1: SpaceNut ... were you thinking of using solar power for ALL aspects of the station operation?  If so, the solar panel field needs to be MUCH larger than the canopy shown above.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-12 08:58:17)

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#13 2020-09-12 09:01:08

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: Business Opportunity

Grid tied net metering would save the energy as you are paid for producing it and allows for not needing to do on site battery storage.
Sure the array farming of panels could also be put on the remaining property to add to the business capability.
Yes brand name recognition would also allow for the startup capital to build the station in the first place with or with out a convience store as we would want all of the models open for build around other such existing or future builds.

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#14 2020-09-13 05:40:23

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,313

Re: Business Opportunity

For SpaceNut re #13

A connection to the grid makes a lot of sense for a charging facility.  However, it seems unlikely to me that a rooftop solar panel installation can charge one average car, let along a constant stream of them.  It would be helpful if a NewMars contributor with an interest in this subject could run some numbers for the forum to study.

An average electric vehicle is going to require some number of kilowatt hours of energy to be delivered in some reasonable time, such as five minutes.

A solar panel roof of area X is going to deliver Y kilowatts when the Sun is shining.  I would expect whatever the output of the roof may be sent to storage.

If a charging station is fully booked for 24 hours, then the energy needed can be estimated.

From that the costs of land, taxes, building loan payments and costs of staffing and insurance can be determined at a ballpark level.

The business proposition would include sufficient income to meet all those expenses plus provide a return for investors.

***
Here is news of business undertaking that isn't working as planned:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/tesl … 29138.html

Apparently a software bug is allowing non-Tesla customers to charge at Tesla supercharger stations (which shouldn't be happening (a)) and (b) the billing software is failing, so the delivery is free.

However, the story ** does ** reveal that whatever plugs Tesla is using in Europe are compatible with those of other vendors.  It might be the European standard that SpaceNut showed us a few posts back.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-13 05:41:20)

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#15 2020-09-13 07:22:05

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: Business Opportunity

The assumption is that the 24 x 7 is that we have a car or vehicle at the charging pump for every second of the time.
The local station near me almost never has anything charging at it so we are in the low end use of the stations capability.

Yes solar is less effective when its cloudy but its free energy for charging and with it going into the grid.
This would pay for the charging units power when idle not being used and lighting for the surrounding station installations.
You would need many more for using it to offset charging power but the banking of excess would start that process while stations are coming up to max capacity for charging vehicles.

As for the charger that seems to be a software program bug for pump use. as you should not have an ungated control of power bring put into a vehicle just because the connection fits. In fact we do not want different plugs only software control to provide the right power condition for that vehicle charging since we can have AC/DC/Slow charging as well as fast.

Software for a vehicle use of the charging pump needs to make use of make and model as part of the interface screen for activating the charging pump use not just the connection plug. The activation of power requires that connection plug be made smarter as to tell when its connected to the vehicles charging port.

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#16 2020-09-13 08:23:37

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,313

Re: Business Opportunity

For SpaceNut re #15

Thank you for your continued interest in this topic, and specifically the charging station for inline vehicles subtopic.

You just revealed that you have a charging station near you!  That means (to me at least) you have an opportunity to collect real world data about this specific business case.  Your observation about low usage of the facility implies (again, to me at least) that the entrepreneur who funded that service would appreciate additional business.  If you are willing to make a field trip to the facility, you could (perhaps?) find out the name of the individual (not a group ... the individual) who is sponsoring this venture.  If you can win their confidence, they might be willing to share real world data with you.  In return, you might be able to assist by bringing the business challenges to this forum, where the level of creative thinking (on one hand) and practical experience (on the other) might enable you to provide some useful assistance.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-13 08:24:17)

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#17 2020-09-13 09:19:29

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: Business Opportunity

This is a musk vehicle station as in the second link and image in post #3...When I get a chance to go look at the pumps I will report back other details....as I am not seeing any sort of display or any input capability for how to charge the individuals credit for its use.

These pumps in the image are also unprotected from the weather for the person fueling up there vehicle which would make it such that its less likely to be used. The Tesla vehicle are quite expensive for the area so its also part of the equation for usage when there are not that many in the area in use.

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#18 2020-09-13 13:50:45

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,313

Re: Business Opportunity

For SpaceNut re #17

Thanks for your follow up on this ... the station might be there as part of the attempt to provide total national coverage for Tesla vehicles.  The station may show up on a navigation screen inside the vehicle, showing it is available if a driver is running low on juice.

The billing process may be totally driven by the smart phone the owner is likely to be carrying, although I suppose the car itself could handle the wireless transaction.

I have heard of totally automated recharging stations ... you don't even get out of your car ... I'd be surprised if the station near you is one of those.

(th)

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#19 2020-09-13 18:32:21

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: Business Opportunity

In leu of going to the station today here is the google links for information that pertain to Tesla charging...

Of course the vehicles owners manual is a good first step as it should tell you enough about the car you are charging.

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/fil … ica_en.pdf

Charging at home is slow due to power source voltage
https://shop.tesla.com/category/charging
https://www.pluglesspower.com/learn/tes … onomously/
https://www.tesla.com/support/home-char … stallation


What appears to be the pumps in image post 3 is a Tesla Level 3 Superchargers and this is the fast charging system
https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

Of course you want to be able to charge anywhere
https://www.tesla.com/charging

Tesla station map finder page

edit
https://forums.tesla.com

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/10 … rging-site

tesla-supercharger-dc-fast-charging-site-goodland-kansas-photo-by-electric-conduit-construction_100477086_l.jpg

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#20 2020-09-13 19:32:03

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,313

Re: Business Opportunity

For SpaceNut re topic and Tesla in particular ...

I had no idea my next door neighbor is driving a Tesla.  I went outside this afternoon on an errand, and noticed her garage door was open.  Since she is on the forgetful side, I thought I'd better check to be sure everything was alright. 

I noticed that a fat cable was connected to the car charging port and to the wall outlet, and ** then ** I noticed the Tesla logo.

Just then she returned, and we talked briefly about charging.  She said that she can fully charge in 20 minutes to half an hour at a Tesla station, but at home it takes several hours to top up.

I'm reasonably aware of automobile types, but I had a mental block in this case.  I discovered that my expectation of the kind of car this lady would own was overriding the actual visual inputs arriving from the vehicle.

Well! We have at least ** one ** EV in the neighborhood << grin >>

This is a pretty traditional part of town.

(th)

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#21 2020-09-13 20:07:50

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: Business Opportunity

With limited charging stations and a need for distance there is the possibility to convert the vehicle into a hybrid...
https://electrek.co/2020/01/06/tesla-model-3-hybrid/

I just checked out the cost of buying any Tesla cars that are ranging from $37,990 all the way up to $91,990 on the Tesla website. Currently, Tesla is selling four cars- Model S, Model 3, Model X and Model Y, and the upcoming Tesla Roadster, Tesla Cybertruck and Tesla Semi.

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#22 2020-09-14 06:14:22

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,313

Re: Business Opportunity

For SpaceNut re #21

The focus of this subtopic is finding a business case for an inline charger to serve EV's hauling trailers.

Every NewMars contributor who lives near an EV charging station could help the discussion along by providing real-world data about existing charging stations, in the context of looking for opportunities to serve the toll-booth style configuration that would be needed for inline service.

It might be possible to convert (some) existing EV charging stations to inline format without great expense.

(th)

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#23 2020-09-14 16:31:59

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,084

Re: Business Opportunity

I think this would be the style of setup for trucks...
network_expansion.jpg?2020200617

Network Expansion Become a Charging Partner
We are at work around the globe constructing new sites to enable additional routes and expand popular stations. In addition to Superchargers, we have a growing network of Destination Charging Partners with dedicated Tesla charging. Tesla partners with hotels, restaurants, shopping centers and resorts to make charging when you arrive at your destination as simple as charging at home. If you are interested in hosting Tesla charging, click here.


Image in post 3 of the pumps look the same front and back of the unit and are arranged as in the image in post 19 with the last 3 pieces on the right side of that being duplicated for each set of units installed for charging as shown in image post 3.
There are 4 sets of 2 units labeled A And B as well as a number for the pair indicator.
There is a number to call or app for network use of the pump, plus get notified from your Tesla app when your vehicle is ready to go.
There was also a sign for service of the Tesla EV.

Still looking for site details but lets assume that its only got leased value and owned for the piece of property for the lots to build up what appears to be 8 slots to charge within.
Then you have taxes on the property, insurance ect...even with a lease you would broker these into the cost of the rental.
You must pay taxes on the income and business taxes.
Here in winter we will need snow removal and sand plus salt to keep the slots open for use.

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#24 2020-09-14 17:31:41

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,313

Re: Business Opportunity

For SpaceNut re #23

Nice image!  That looks (to me at least) like an artist's rendering of a business concept.  As you say, it sure does look like a setup that would accommodate inline vehicles, although such a rig would take up two charging stations, so the owner of the property might become concerned if there is a queue for service.

(th)

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#25 2020-09-14 18:12:21

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,614

Re: Business Opportunity

I wonder how much better a central / circular store with the fuel pumps or charging stations in a ring around the outside could work from a space and traffic flow perspective, in a similar way to how we use roundabouts to reduce collisions.

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