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#826 2021-05-04 13:07:35

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 858

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

My wife had her first shot of the Astrozenica vaccine on 27th March.  Within 5 days she developed tinnitus.  A few days after that, she suffered dizziness, vertigo, and nausea.  The symptoms have not abated and she now needs an MRI scan to check for permanent brain / nerve damage.  She feels permanently intoxicated.  Tinnitus and vertigo are known side effects of the vaccine.  We both had coronavirus in March last year.  It made us both ill, but we both got over it within 2 weeks.  The vaccine may have caused her permanent damage.

I am more than a little apprehensive about taking the vaccine after her experience.  Whilst both the vaccine and the virus present their own risk, I am not satisfied that viral risk avoided by taking the vaccine justify the risks that the vaccine imposes.  Having both had the coronavirus, we both have T-cell immunity.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-05-04 13:09:56)


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#827 2021-05-04 13:35:22

Terraformer
Member
From: Logres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,356
Website

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

GW,

Don't knock twitter. Twitter anons were preparing for a pandemic last January, when the 'experts' were insisting there was no problem. It's all about the cone of uncertainty.

Calliban,

I wonder if your wife had a strong immune response because she was already immune? Because of how the AZ vaccine works, it wouldn't necessarily have the same result as a reinfection. Your body won't clear the vaccine in the same way it clears an infection...


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#828 2021-05-04 13:56:15

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,300

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

No one aged 40 or below is at any risk from Covid if they are in they are neither obese nor with co-morbidities, so there is no reason for them to be advised to take the vaccine.

Terraformer wrote:

What are you talking about, louis? You didn't even read my post!

I have no idea why you're talking about Moderna when I mentioned Novavax. As a protein subunit vaccine (it consists of the spike protein plus an immune booster), it is the closest we'll have to a traditional inactivated vaccine - nothing enters the bodies cells, unlike the AZ and mRNA ones.

I also have no idea why you're talking about children. I never mentioned them. As far as we can tell, kids shrug off the disease just fine unless they have serious pre-existing conditions.


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#829 2021-05-04 14:05:56

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,300

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

I am not an anti-vaxxer. An anti-vaxxer opposes all vaccination programmes. I am a vaccine sceptic. I can see that there certainly can be a case made for mass vaccination for some diseases. Smallpox and polio are/were the most obvious, both diseases capable of causing serious damage to lots of otherwise healthy children and young people.

But I strongly oppose the misguided (and financially corrupt) attempt by Big Pharma and the medical profession to substitute vaccination for our immune systems. It makes no more sense than to substitute a robosuit for our muscular system just because people fall and break bones and sometimes die when they use their muscular systems for getting about. 

GW: healthy children are at no risk from Covid at all. They don't need to be protected.


GW Johnson wrote:

Terraformer:

Louis does that,  because he "swallowed the (real) Kool Aid" long ago.  He is a devout "anti-vaxxer" as well as a mask skeptic.  I checked on the identity of the references he cited in post 818 above to "refute" what I said about masks in post 817 above,  but they really were not credible as references.  One of them came from Twitter.  Twitter?  Really?

As far as his example in post 823 of a 2 year old dying from a Covid shot,  maybe it was the shot,  maybe not.  No data on that.  But even if it was the vaccine that killed the infant,  that is 1 bad result out of millions of vaccinations given.  Pretty good odds against there being any significant problem.  Most folks think 1 in 1000 is "good enough". 

GW


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#830 2021-05-04 15:19:23

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,300

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Very sorry to hear that Calliban I hope your wife improves. Those sorts of conditions can be very distressing.

Calliban wrote:

My wife had her first shot of the Astrozenica vaccine on 27th March.  Within 5 days she developed tinnitus.  A few days after that, she suffered dizziness, vertigo, and nausea.  The symptoms have not abated and she now needs an MRI scan to check for permanent brain / nerve damage.  She feels permanently intoxicated.  Tinnitus and vertigo are known side effects of the vaccine.  We both had coronavirus in March last year.  It made us both ill, but we both got over it within 2 weeks.  The vaccine may have caused her permanent damage.

I am more than a little apprehensive about taking the vaccine after her experience.  Whilst both the vaccine and the virus present their own risk, I am not satisfied that viral risk avoided by taking the vaccine justify the risks that the vaccine imposes.  Having both had the coronavirus, we both have T-cell immunity.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#831 2021-05-04 17:57:53

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 21,841

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

I am very sorry to hear that Calliban I hope your wife improves.

My own fears getting the shots as well an is at risk with her medical conditions of not being well....

This sort of sounds like blood clots in some ways with the symptoms.

The other thing is why are we not doing immune testing for the antibodies and saying that thats good enough as we do with other diseases?

Last we know that woman do differently with medications so a blanket cure is something that needs to be looked at same as for whom gets the virus as they have a different body chemistry.

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#832 2021-05-06 12:35:47

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,358
Website

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

"No one aged 40 or below is at any risk from Covid if they are in they are neither obese nor with co-morbidities, so there is no reason for them to be advised to take the vaccine."

If that were true,  then why are the numbers of young adults and children that are sick with Covid-19 increasing in the US,  while the number of oldsters sickened is decreasing?  Them's the real numbers,  Louis! 

As for the difference between an "anti-vaxxer" and a "vaccine skeptic",  from my point of view,  there is no difference.  The outcome is the same:  they do not want the shot,  which makes them a contagion risk that threatens the rest of us.  If I were to threaten someone with a gun, I would be jailed.  There should be serious consequences for threatening with contagion.  Nuances of their reasons why they don't want the shot,  make no difference to that contagion threat outcome. 

As for the risks of the disease vs the vaccine,  I can only speak to the Pfizer,  Moderna,  and J&J shots.  There seem to be somewhere around 10 cases of bad blood clots with J&J,  and not very much other than 24-48 hours of feeling poor with the others.  That's out of around 100 million vaccinated so far in the US.  So the odds of a bad reaction are somewhere in the vicinity of 10/10^8 ~ 1/ten million.   Those are pretty good odds.  Compare that to the odds of a bad outcome from birth control pills: around 1/1000,  and people gladly accept those,  all the time. 

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2021-05-06 12:38:21)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#833 2021-05-06 14:42:55

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,300

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Mask danger. You have been warned. A scientific study of dangers to health from mask wearing:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 5421002311


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#834 2021-05-06 15:07:07

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,300

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

“This study, as well as my clinical experience taking care of patients with COVID-19, reinforces the findings that persons with obesity, diabetes, and hypertension are at much greater risk for adverse outcomes,”

"According to the CDCTrusted Source, obesity is an increasingly serious health issue in the United States, affecting over 40 percent of the population. The CDC reports that over the last 20 years, the prevalence of obesity increased from 30.5 to 42.4 percent, and severe obesity increased from under 5 to 9.2 percent."

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/ … jor-factor

You've got an horrendous problem with obesity in the USA and that includes among younger people, which is why Covid 19 is affecting younger people. A young man of 27 died of Covid here. He was a friend from some years ago of my daughter. He was grossly obese.

Healthy young people have nothing to fear from Covid - well certainly no more than from other similar diseases such as flu.

Vaccinated people can still transmit the virus. So careful what you wish for.


GW Johnson wrote:

"No one aged 40 or below is at any risk from Covid if they are in they are neither obese nor with co-morbidities, so there is no reason for them to be advised to take the vaccine."

If that were true,  then why are the numbers of young adults and children that are sick with Covid-19 increasing in the US,  while the number of oldsters sickened is decreasing?  Them's the real numbers,  Louis! 

As for the difference between an "anti-vaxxer" and a "vaccine skeptic",  from my point of view,  there is no difference.  The outcome is the same:  they do not want the shot,  which makes them a contagion risk that threatens the rest of us.  If I were to threaten someone with a gun, I would be jailed.  There should be serious consequences for threatening with contagion.  Nuances of their reasons why they don't want the shot,  make no difference to that contagion threat outcome. 

As for the risks of the disease vs the vaccine,  I can only speak to the Pfizer,  Moderna,  and J&J shots.  There seem to be somewhere around 10 cases of bad blood clots with J&J,  and not very much other than 24-48 hours of feeling poor with the others.  That's out of around 100 million vaccinated so far in the US.  So the odds of a bad reaction are somewhere in the vicinity of 10/10^8 ~ 1/ten million.   Those are pretty good odds.  Compare that to the odds of a bad outcome from birth control pills: around 1/1000,  and people gladly accept those,  all the time. 

GW


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#835 2021-05-06 16:20:18

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 858

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Louis, GW (and others); thankyou for the support.  She has the MRI tomorrow.  My wife has long suspected that she suffers from an autoimmune condition.  It may be that the vaccine triggered this somehow.  We will have to wait for the results and diagnosis.

My own thoughts on the risk presented by coronavirus (and I am happy to be be proven wrong if someone can show me the statistics) is that the risk is real but quite small compared to other risks that we face in life.  The average age of death (in the UK) from coronavirus is 82 years of age.  I don't know what it is in the US, but I doubt that it is much different.  The response to the virus so far, appears to me at least to be grossly disproportionate to the real level of risk.  We will be burdened with the debt resulting from lockouts and other economically ruinous restrictions for decades to come.  Was it worth it?  There are sound reasons for doubting that it was.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti … RFORD.html

It is suspicious in my mind, that governments did not attempt to substantiate lockdowns and other restrictions with cost-benefit analysis.  Here's the bottom line: The coronavirus is a risk to public health and is one of many such risks.  Because it is a new virus without established immunity, it has a higher mortality rate than we are accustomed to from annual influenza cases.  That has gotten a lot of people scared.  And scared people aren't that interested in rational analysis or other people's rights.  There are things that can be done to reduce the risk, but they all come at a cost, both financial and in terms of loss of freedom for people having to tolerate enforced changes to their way of life and coercion into vaccination, which is not free from risk.

If you want to impose solutions on other people to reduce societal risk from this disease, then it is not unreasonable that you face a burden of proof in demonstrating that the reduction in total risk justifies whatever costs you are imposing on the people.  And the burden of proof absolutely should be on those that propose the enforced use of masks, restrictions on freedom of movement and association and of course vaccination, because these are deviations to normal life and they impose costs on people, some relatively small, others far less so.  It is simple really and it should be common sense: you need to demonstrate that what you are proposing is proportionate.  This is where cost-benefit analysis comes in.  It takes the emotion out of these decisions and gives you an answer based on arithmetic.  We use it for all sorts of complex decisions where we need to balance residual risks against the costs incurred by further risk reduction.

This is exactly the sort of cool headed approach that should be applied right now, before we trample over people's right to choose in order to mitigate a risk which may be much bigger in people's minds than it is in reality.  It may be that the use of masks, lockdown and vaccination, are fully justified by the results of a cost-benefit analysis.  Maybe not.  But without an evidence based justification, no one should be imposing the use of masks or vaccines on other people.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-05-06 16:54:42)


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#836 2021-05-06 17:35:27

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,300

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Hope the MRI scan will lead to some progress for your wife.

Agree with all your comments. Covid 19 was not to be ignored or treated lightly. But neither was it a needful cause for panic. The Government took a wrong turning when it moved from a sensible policy of containment, protection for the most vulnerable and moving to herd immunity for one based on mass hysteria. No good can come from a government deliberating choosing to make the public more frightened than they need to be.

You are quite right to remind us of the absence of any published cost-benefit analysis for lockdown (plus masking, test and trace and vaccination). Why?



Calliban wrote:

Louis, GW (and others); thankyou for the support.  She has the MRI tomorrow.  My wife has long suspected that she suffers from an autoimmune condition.  It may be that the vaccine triggered this somehow.  We will have to wait for the results and diagnosis.

My own thoughts on the risk presented by coronavirus (and I am happy to be be proven wrong if someone can show me the statistics) is that the risk is real but quite small compared to other risks that we face in life.  The average age of death (in the UK) from coronavirus is 82 years of age.  I don't know what it is in the US, but I doubt that it is much different.  The response to the virus so far, appears to me at least to be grossly disproportionate to the real level of risk.  We will be burdened with the debt resulting from lockouts and other economically ruinous restrictions for decades to come.  Was it worth it?  There are sound reasons for doubting that it was.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti … RFORD.html

It is suspicious in my mind, that governments did not attempt to substantiate lockdowns and other restrictions with cost-benefit analysis.  Here's the bottom line: The coronavirus is a risk to public health and is one of many such risks.  Because it is a new virus without established immunity, it has a higher mortality rate than we are accustomed to from annual influenza cases.  That has gotten a lot of people scared.  And scared people aren't that interested in rational analysis or other people's rights.  There are things that can be done to reduce the risk, but they all come at a cost, both financial and in terms of loss of freedom for people having to tolerate enforced changes to their way of life and coercion into vaccination, which is not free from risk.

If you want to impose solutions on other people to reduce societal risk from this disease, then it is not unreasonable that you face a burden of proof in demonstrating that the reduction in total risk justifies whatever costs you are imposing on the people.  And the burden of proof absolutely should be on those that propose the enforced use of masks, restrictions on freedom of movement and association and of course vaccination, because these are deviations to normal life and they impose costs on people, some relatively small, others far less so.  It is simple really and it should be common sense: you need to demonstrate that what you are proposing is proportionate.  This is where cost-benefit analysis comes in.  It takes the emotion out of these decisions and gives you an answer based on arithmetic.  We use it for all sorts of complex decisions where we need to balance residual risks against the costs incurred by further risk reduction.

This is exactly the sort of cool headed approach that should be applied right now, before we trample over people's right to choose in order to mitigate a risk which may be much bigger in people's minds than it is in reality.  It may be that the use of masks, lockdown and vaccination, are fully justified by the results of a cost-benefit analysis.  Maybe not.  But without an evidence based justification, no one should be imposing the use of masks or vaccines on other people.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#837 2021-05-06 20:07:37

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 21,841

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

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#838 Yesterday 17:10:25

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,300

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

A deliberately misleading presentation from the CDC. Absolute numbers would give a much clearer representation of what is going on. The multipliers disguise the huge differences between age groups.


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