New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#1 2021-08-01 11:05:32

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Is the Western World Sinking into Totalitarianism?

This from the UK.  Journalists face up to 14 years in prison for publishing stories that embarrass the government.  Embarrass them in front of whom?  Their own people?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … hange.html

This would appear to me to fly in the face of the idea that government should be accountable to the people for its actions.  These creepy politicians clearly do not think that they should be accountable for their own actions.  Is this not the definition of tyranny?  The idea that one is entitled to rule because God ordained that they occupy a position of power?  The absence of freedom to speak would appear to me to be incompatible with the concept of representative democracy.  Without that freedom, even an elected leader is a tyrant, because the freedom to choose is meaningless without the freedom to receive and disseminate information without fear of persecution.

I do not believe that the UK has ever been ruled by the will of the people.  And with each passing day, we appear to moving further from that idea.  Usually, this marks the point where an oppressed populous picks up guns and removes the tyrant from power and puts in place a proper constitution that limits the power of government.  How much more BS do we have to tolerate before that happens?

Last edited by Calliban (2021-08-01 11:12:08)


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

Offline

#2 2021-08-01 12:10:23

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,304

Re: Is the Western World Sinking into Totalitarianism?

For Calliban ...

In light of the division that showed up when Brexit was proposed, I wonder what would happen if citizens of the lands where you reside were to decide to hold a constitutional convention.

The American experiment is not much of an example to go by, considering how fragile it is, but at least it ** does ** provide a model of what a Constitutional Convention might look like for your region.

You could (for example) choose to eliminate the royalty altogether, or perhaps keep it if enough citizens like having it as a part of the culture.

From your title of this topic, I thought the scope might have been larger than just what it turns out to be.

Unfortunately, it is not possible to change/edit a topic title.

you ** could ** delete the topic and create a new one with a better scope.

If you keep the current title, then the answer is a guarded "NO" ...

I say guarded, because democracy is NOT strong anywhere ... humans appear to like being ruled with an iron hand.

Democracy is hard work, and (apparently) not everyone is up for it.

(th)

Offline

#3 2021-08-01 16:50:38

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,859

Re: Is the Western World Sinking into Totalitarianism?

We are well down the road. It's a race between the UK, USA and France I think to become the first democracy to convert entirely to totalitarianism. The UK's elections are still relatively honest, unlike those in the USA, where mail in ballots have been weaponised to deliver a permanent Democrat majority. Macron seems to be the most fiercely anti-democratic leader in the West. In no country can people speak freely any longer about issues of concern.


Calliban wrote:

This from the UK.  Journalists face up to 14 years in prison for publishing stories that embarrass the government.  Embarrass them in front of whom?  Their own people?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … hange.html

This would appear to me to fly in the face of the idea that government should be accountable to the people for its actions.  These creepy politicians clearly do not think that they should be accountable for their own actions.  Is this not the definition of tyranny?  The idea that one is entitled to rule because God ordained that they occupy a position of power?  The absence of freedom to speak would appear to me to be incompatible with the concept of representative democracy.  Without that freedom, even an elected leader is a tyrant, because the freedom to choose is meaningless without the freedom to receive and disseminate information without fear of persecution.

I do not believe that the UK has ever been ruled by the will of the people.  And with each passing day, we appear to moving further from that idea.  Usually, this marks the point where an oppressed populous picks up guns and removes the tyrant from power and puts in place a proper constitution that limits the power of government.  How much more BS do we have to tolerate before that happens?


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#4 2021-08-01 17:06:34

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Is the Western World Sinking into Totalitarianism?

Democracy pass into authorisms first as the new king takes hold....

Something like this

This is what we are seeing the "Big Lie" almost always refers to the false claim by Donald Trump and his right-wing cronies that the 2020 presidential election was somehow stolen by the left and Joe Biden, with the help of foreign agents.

Republicans claim to fear left-wing authoritarianism — but there's no such thingAANjRPr.img?h=540&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=882&y=438

Offline

#5 2021-08-08 17:58:44

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 885

Re: Is the Western World Sinking into Totalitarianism?

West will change like the tides, what was imperial and east and west will distort, right and left will have no meaning after hundreds of years.

This Londonistan place or Britbongistan is not the Western world

There will be dead weight but Mars is our goal now

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-08-08 18:05:50)

Offline

#6 2021-08-08 19:03:20

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,612

Re: Is the Western World Sinking into Totalitarianism?

Everyone should learn to identify the tactics used to brainwash the masses into acceptance of authoritarianism:

MASS PSYCHOSIS - How an Entire Population Becomes MENTALLY ILL

Offline

#7 2021-08-08 21:08:54

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Is the Western World Sinking into Totalitarianism?

I will study your materials.  I think it is important for all western people to be aware of the cultural rapes that have been going on, and the potential for more.  However our position is not of having no means of self protection.

I believe that there are time processes.  At this time I believe we have entered a reversal of roles as per parts of the 20th century.  That is nobody is forever a people who should be demonized for history.  That was the very thing that made
WWI and WWII the unpleasant process that it was.

Our chances are very good in my opinion.  But we have cultural infiltrators that can be useful to a point, and may need to be kept at bay, should they try to impose non-western cultural systems on us.  Quislings help them.

It is a mirror reality in my opinion.

But don't reply.  Even if you want to.

I believe that our situation is rather good, and awareness is a very good beginning
tool to reduce and end the rape process.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#8 2021-08-09 01:04:19

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,612

Re: Is the Western World Sinking into Totalitarianism?

Void,

WWI and WWII were "unpleasant processes" because evil men with abhorrent ideas managed to brainwash their masses of followers into destroying themselves, their fellow countrymen, and everyone around them through war, famine, and genocide.  Nothing about what happened during those wars was particularly unique or different from past wars or genocides.  All of human history is a collection of recurring themes, some good / some bad / most par for the course, with circumstances and available technology being the only real differences.  The end results certainly haven't changed.  It's unsurprising that no greater meaning has been derived through all of that suffering.  Everyone involved at the time thought that either they or their circumstances or technology were somehow "unique" or different from all other human experiences, but any objective review of events would indicate that such was never the case.  That is what is actually meant by "not believing your own BS".

Offline

#9 2021-08-09 10:53:18

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Is the Western World Sinking into Totalitarianism?

kdb512,

I accept your post without opposition.

I do which to note that there has been judgement creep, where more and more people have been put under judgement for certain crimes of the past.

I also note that in my opinion the NAZI were not the friends of the people they
claimed to wish to help.  They only used them by telling them that they were special.  One thing that I learned is that they believe that they can create a higher
order of life by making groups fight with each other.  It is a sort of Darwinism.

They apparently thought that it was OK to take the German people to a casino and bet their future.  If they  failed they were not worthy, and so this would be a test of worth, written in cruelty.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

Offline

#10 2021-08-13 06:00:55

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: Is the Western World Sinking into Totalitarianism?

Totalitarian regimes develop because a large fraction of people are motivated by fears, from which they can only feel safe by eliminating other people's freedom.  For them, any freedom is freedom to disobey; absolute control of every minutiae of other people's lives is the only way they can feel protected.  I know quite a lot of people whose internal psychology works in this way.  They are not always obnoxious to talk to, but they cannot tolerate or empathise with anyone that sees things differently.  They simply do not value freedom.  They think oppression and control will bring moral certitude and safety from anything unexpected.  Rather than embrace the opportunities of the outside world, they want to build a cage for themselves and everyone else.  This sort of attitude always leads to war, because these people simply cannot tolerate or understand anyone that sees things differently to them.  So long as one person sees things differently and might contradict the narrative, they are a deadly threat that must be stamped out of existence, because one dissenting voice has the power to influence others.

This is how societies turn themselves into prisons.  This is the fight that lies ahead of us.  The fight between those that want to be free and those that are threatened by freedom.  There can be no peace with these people, because the idea of allowing other people to hold their own point of view and go their own way, is threatening to them.  To believe differently, is to threaten the validity of their ideals.  To live differently, is to defy them.  The weak and cowardly will go along the authoritarians, because the only other option is to be at war with them.  Those that love freedom and will not comply, will not willingly form collectives to oppose the authoritarians.  Hence, they rapidly find themselves outnumbered, isolated and then persecuted using the powers of the state.  The evil will crush the good, because the good have no motive to seek domination over others and will not collectively recognise the futility of appealing to reason until it is much too late.  This is the reality that makes freedom a historical aberration.  It is fear and hatred of freedom that has fed the Democratic party in the US, the socialists in mainland Europe and the two-party political establishment in Britain.  These people will not rest until human beings are reduced to the status of mechanical parts in a machine, with no freedom and no will or opportunity to disobey.  Amongst those that still value and yearn for freedom, there will remain the dream of escape.  It is this dream that fuels the drive for migration into space; to Alaska; to Antarctica; to Mars; to anywhere where one can be distant from ham-fisted control of totalitarianism.

https://alt-market.us/why-do-some-peopl … s-defy-it/

Last edited by Calliban (2021-08-13 06:24:02)


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

Offline

#11 2021-08-13 08:04:49

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,859

Re: Is the Western World Sinking into Totalitarianism?

I was reading yesterday that none of the US mainstream media had reported on the video of Hunter Biden speaking to a prostitute,  indicating the Russians had stolen one of this laptops (the story did appear in the UK based Mail Online and it would seem to be fully verified). Since we know Hunter gives daddy 10% on his deals, this is a clear security risk, but no one in the US mainstream media will touch the story just as they covered up during the election campaign. No  way could this item be described as unnewsworthy, so what have here is de facto censorship - a sign of a totalitarian mindset.

Last edited by louis (2021-08-13 11:16:33)


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#12 2021-08-13 09:24:44

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,612

Re: Is the Western World Sinking into Totalitarianism?

Calliban wrote:

Totalitarian regimes develop because a large fraction of people are motivated by fears, from which they can only feel safe by eliminating other people's freedom.  For them, any freedom is freedom to disobey; absolute control of every minutiae of other people's lives is the only way they can feel protected.  I know quite a lot of people whose internal psychology works in this way.  They are not always obnoxious to talk to, but they cannot tolerate or empathise with anyone that sees things differently.  They simply do not value freedom.  They think oppression and control will bring moral certitude and safety from anything unexpected.  Rather than embrace the opportunities of the outside world, they want to build a cage for themselves and everyone else.  This sort of attitude always leads to war, because these people simply cannot tolerate or understand anyone that sees things differently to them.  So long as one person sees things differently and might contradict the narrative, they are a deadly threat that must be stamped out of existence, because one dissenting voice has the power to influence others.

This is how societies turn themselves into prisons.  This is the fight that lies ahead of us.  The fight between those that want to be free and those that are threatened by freedom.  There can be no peace with these people, because the idea of allowing other people to hold their own point of view and go their own way, is threatening to them.  To believe differently, is to threaten the validity of their ideals.  To live differently, is to defy them.  The weak and cowardly will go along the authoritarians, because the only other option is to be at war with them.  Those that love freedom and will not comply, will not willingly form collectives to oppose the authoritarians.  Hence, they rapidly find themselves outnumbered, isolated and then persecuted using the powers of the state.  The evil will crush the good, because the good have no motive to seek domination over others and will not collectively recognise the futility of appealing to reason until it is much too late.  This is the reality that makes freedom a historical aberration.  It is fear and hatred of freedom that has fed the Democratic party in the US, the socialists in mainland Europe and the two-party political establishment in Britain.  These people will not rest until human beings are reduced to the status of mechanical parts in a machine, with no freedom and no will or opportunity to disobey.  Amongst those that still value and yearn for freedom, there will remain the dream of escape.  It is this dream that fuels the drive for migration into space; to Alaska; to Antarctica; to Mars; to anywhere where one can be distant from ham-fisted control of totalitarianism.

https://alt-market.us/why-do-some-peopl … s-defy-it/

Bravo.  Spot on.  This is exactly what is going on, as well as exactly why it is happening.  Someone was actually paying attention in history class.  Too bad for all of us that nobody else was.  You probably think that you need to be a good engineer, and I'm sure you are, but that's only partly correct.  People like you need to become philosophers to teach the imbeciles the difference between right and wrong, because in their lust for "safety" from threats that are well beyond the control of any human or group of humans, they have ignored the historical truism that people who sacrifice liberty for safety will have neither.  Amongst the radical leftists, you're never more than one "wrong opinion" away from being mercilessly persecuted by the people you falsely imagined were your friends.

I've said it many times before, but it's worth repeating again until it finally sinks in amongst those who need to accept it:

The entire concept of "safety" is a 100% fictitious human brain construct that doesn't exist and will never exist in the objective universe.  That simple truth that will remain true for all eternity.  There is no "safe" or "unsafe".  There is "prudent" and "imprudent", but there is no such thing as safety because human brains simply "made it up" to describe a lack of fear, which itself is not objective in nature.  Two people can find themselves in the same situation, one will be absolutely terrified and the other will think it's as good a day as any other.  That same concept also applies to anything else that you can't objectively measure, such as equity and equality.

Strangely enough, we can objectively measure freedoms.  You're free to travel or you're not.  You're free to defend yourself against violent criminals without being persecuted by the state afterwards or you're not.  You're free to determine what goes into your body without persecution or you're not.  These are objective standards that can be directly observed by an independent observer who can determine whether or not any specific individual is either granted or denied such freedoms.

Offline

#13 2021-08-13 13:53:08

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,304

Re: Is the Western World Sinking into Totalitarianism?

For Calliban re topic ....

You and kbd512 have been discussing some heavy matters recently .... I decided to take the time to go back to the top.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … hange.html

Just FYI ... I carefully read the article you cited, and the comments.  The comments did not seem of a caliber to match the article as written, but they may have been one-off first impressions.

The subject of how large groups of humans can live productively and cooperatively on the same planet is one that deserves the kind of serious thought the two of you are investing.

I'll offer a location/region that ** is ** sinking into Totalitarianism at a mile-a-minute ... that would be Afghanistan.

I read an article on the subject recently ... I don't have it in front of me and am working from impressions ...

The author was critical of Western agencies who spent the last 20 years in Afghanistan, but the article reflected on the failure of (many of the same) Western agencies to prepare Iraq for attack by the Islamic State. 

Using the examples from kbd512 that are still visible on my browser screen ...

The women of Afghanistan are on the verge of losing the prospect of rewarding and productive lives in expression of their talents.  They will NOT be able to travel freely.  They will NOT be able to defend themselves against men.  The will NOT be able to determine what goes into their bodies.  They will NOT be able to communicate with anyone in the outside world, or even most people in their own country.

The article I'm reflecting on mentioned the failure of Western agencies to create armed forces in Iraq or Afghanistan that have the will to fight.

In Iraq, the huge armed force melted away in front of a tiny force of fanatics.  Something similar seems to be happening in Afghanistan.  From scattered reports, the Afghan regular forces are surrendering only to be executed on the spot.  Something is ** really ** wrong with this picture.

The article cites corruption that pervades Afghan society.  I can't speak to that.  I can only note that report after report seems to support the idea that in the absence of the discipline that the Taliban movement provides, the Afghan brain seems to tend toward corruption.

What ** is ** clear is that the Taliban have been raising young men from infancy to serve wholeheartedly in whatever the "cause" may be that is at the core of the movement.  A hint of the power of religion was provided recently, when a Western female journalist interviewed a Taliban leader taking a break from capturing the country.  The leader was forthright about the enforcement of Sharia Law, elimination of education for women, and numerous other policies that Western readers have become familiar with.

In another  commentary, this time in a television news analysis program, the speaker offered the opinion that the Taliban has probably learned a valuable lesson to keep it's mayhem confined to it's own neighborhood, and to avoid irritating the West to the point of invasion.  The speaker (in this case) offered the opinion that the Taliban will be free to enforce whatever discipline they like on their population and neighbors.

In this post, I have avoided mention of points made by correspondents earlier (except for a few items from kbd512) because there is ** so ** much to study and to try to absorb.  This topic appears to have opened with a worthy question/topic, and the conversation appears to have value as it proceeds.

(th)

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB