If humans are going to be extraterrestrial they should Cone Home(s) :)

Void · 2018-12-12 13:04:38

Blah!!!

Well here it is I will in this case give my current thinking and then perhaps mention some of the prequel thinking that lead to it.

I want a cone house built of fiberglass, and a modified Boring Company compressed bricks, leggo style. I want those cone houses (Which may be the size of skyscrapers to connect to each other and to significant ice covered reservoirs by Boring Company style tunnels.

I want these "Cone Home Towers" to also be "Solar Power Towers".

……

I have seen discussions of making habitats on Mars out of fiberglass and then burying them deep in soil for counterpressure and for radiation protection. As I imagine this, they would have vertical walls, and a horizontal floor and ceiling. I have to imagine that you need to keep them pressurized, or the roof will cave in, unless you have used massive amounts of fiberglass. I think I have something better.

So, you make a "Cone, with the apex as up, and the base as down. You make it out of fiberglass. Ideally robots with 3D printing properties do the bulk of that work. You most likely put it on a good rock or regolith foundation.

The you encircle it as much as is needed with a progression of leggo style "Boring Company" interlocking bricks.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/techno … e-housing/
The bricks don't have to look just like the ones here. They could actually have puzzle like interlocking lobes and cavities. You could inteed add some tensile strength to them by adding some fibers of some kind to the dirt.

Of course you need a cement. Maybe just fiberglass resin from atmosphere and water???

Your fiberglass interior wall is highly patchable, if it gets a leak. It has tensile strength and some compressive strength. However the coatings of interlocking bricks will have very significant compressive strength and also provide counterpressure. With fibers inside, and interlocking lobes and cavities, it would also have some tensile strength.

And if sufficiently built, I would expect very good radiation protection.

Then at the apex of the cone, can be a receiver for solar power from a collection of heliostats.

It may be possible to superheat water, and vent it out to atmosphere to form a vortex to lift some of the water vapor to high altitudes, in hopes to provide a enhanced greenhouse effect per water vapor and a presumed synthesis of Methane from the actions of U.V. on CO2 and H2O.

And of course the superheated steam through turbine is to provide electrical energy to the Cone Home.

The massive amount of water would be supplied from "Boring Company" type tunnels which would convey heated water to ice covered reservoirs and bring back colder water for the turbine process, and to heat up and return to the reservoir as heated.

But...You could also put solar cells on the outside of the brick cone. Those could be normal, or some could be very high temperature, and take input from some of the heliostats.

I have not forbidden other structures on Mars, just have suggested one which may have great utility.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106598/

Ended.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-12 13:23:27)

SpaceNut · 2018-12-12 18:13:40

Mars will get 3D printed round pyramids. or semi arched and if i could add using semi arch internal floors and support structures to give it an easy build.

I do remember the Coneheads.....

Void · 2018-12-15 12:22:12

A friendly reply. I was almost going to start a new thread, for the Boring Company on Mars, anyone else can, but I think it being already mentioned here I will paste what else I have about it here. Be warned, I am not only Mars about it, really quite a few planets.

Elon Musk is indeed unique.

So....The Boring Company in general....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boring_Company

So, dry tunnels, for cars, and Hyperloops, and lately sewer tunnels and water tunnels.

Well there is another musk with "Pink Houses".
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=mu … &FORM=IGRE

Lets hope they will play nice together.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … ainer.html

Um...Hyperloop and pink houses...??? No!

Under LA and pink houses ??? Hmmm..... High speed stuff going through, maybe not, but up for questions.

But what about other types of tunnel?

So, a more passive tunnel method, you get to move objects through the tunnels, but their are surfaces upon which you may fixate methods of agricultural production with relatively small impediment to the movement of objects.

So, I am here specifically thinking of Earth and Mars for the most part. And I will try to adapt agriculture to the existing concept of dry tunnels, and also to an intermediary type of tunnel lets call it partially wet. It is not specifically a sewer line not specifically a water line.

So, if cities are to be on Mars, then they should be 3D, with a 4D. That is you must start your 3D with the concept of how the whole thing expands over time 4D.

For Earth, if you are going to grow plants under pink light inside of tunnels, I think that electrical conductors could be a first look.

For Mars, I think "Air Pneumatic", with pneumatic driven electric generators.

This is after all a site about Mars as the primary interest, so I will "Gravitate" to that next, and then return to Earth.

For Mars, of course if you have a city, you want to consider Boring Tubes, dry. They with the assistance of elevators, can link various buildings on the surface, and under created bodies of water will have great value I would think. And it may be possible to double the use of these passageways by growing crops under artificial light.

But really while not dismissing dry tubes for humans, I want to further elaborate half wet tubes, with pink lights. But this will get "Out there" a bit. Deal with it.

Peter Zeihan, I have been warned to be carful about his conclusions, but I have to say he is doing pretty well so far. I really hope he is because of the curvature of reality in four dimension, not quite right. (I really want escape clauses). But he is compelling.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterhigh/ … 0f2678501e

Anyway some places he mentions that floating things like bulk cargo is much better done on water than on rails or roads. The USA got extremely lucky that way with the Mississippi river system. And they increased their fortunes by modifying that and modifying the east coast intercostal water way.

Well for Mars, we don't get it that easy, but maybe we make easy, the hard way. Boring though rock. The "WE" is mostly "THEM", but forgive me I like a plan that could work.

So, now I get bizarre, but I think maybe in a nice way. What about boring company half water filled tubes, with light illumination for plants? What about canoes? Is that as stupid as you might initially think? I will attempt to make a positive case for it.

Alright lets just look at the product proposed. You have a horizontal tunnel ~Half filled with water. You can move canoes through it therefore. Either electric driven or paddle driven for silly notions or emergencies.

Half air filled. That indicating that humans will not die or get very sick inhaling it. In fact preferred except when not possible that they will remain very healthy.

Electric driven robot canoes is not that stupid in my opinion. No wheels needed. Water delivered from point 'A' to point 'B'. Air similarly distributed from point 'A' to point 'B' in the same direction or in opposition as may be desired.

So that is perhaps OK. But what of using that length of tunnel as a productive "Pink House"???

Well when you are that wet and humid, I shy away from direct electrical conductors. It could be very shocking. And for Mars and elsewhere the Copper and/or Aluminum could be very dear in cost.

What about energy storage??? Well not beating around the bush, "Liquid or Compressed breathable air" I would propose.

I am tiring out, and so will rush to completion for now.

You possibly have a horizontal tunnel half filled with water and half filled with a gas mixture we can call air, because short and long term humans would not die from breathing it. In the lower water portion you have plastic pipes, those conveying air. The pipes also being heat exchangers. You can warm up the water mentioned by several possible methods. The water can warm up air in the pipes. The air in the pipes comes from an air storage method either compressed and/or liquid air in method.

So how do you get electricity to "Pink lights" inside the tunnel? You vent pneumatically through turbines the warmed up air. The water which is presumed to warm up the air being warmed by solar or nuclear or both.

Silly me, so you have the "Pink House" agriculture which presumably comes from such energy methods. But you must dissipate heat. That can come from the water flow. The heat dumped in to needs, such as artificial ice covered reservoirs.

But your half wet tunnels are at different heights. What of water flows and robot canoes? Well elevators, and pipes for water.

So maybe OK for Mars.

…..

Tired.

What about Earth?

Well can we have the Boring Company connect the Mississippi system to the west coast with half filled "Pink House" robotic canoe cargo transfers?

Well here I am getting out there, very far out there but we would really like to be really far out there would we not, if we had the power?

You dream for a while, I am tired and have other things to do.

Fini

Last edited by Void (2018-12-15 13:17:21)

Void · 2018-12-15 22:46:28

So, more progress of my kind, as I may be a hearo/zero in my own mind.

Per post #1, should boring company type tunneling occur, and if tailings need constructive disposal, (This is more or less a review), we would hope to have a cement or glue/resin. I think the glue/resin is going to come from the atmosphere and water.

There could be several contemplations on how to build pressurized structure out of fibers, rock tailings and perhaps glue/resin. Beyond that, you may use high tensile bands around the lengths and perimeters, to further add tensile strength to the devices.

They could be for housing, they could be for solar power towers. That's a good notion.

However they could also in alternate cases be heat exchangers/condensers. I think this could be very good.

So, for the half water filled tunnels, a method could be formed where the air in the tunnels is passed to these structures which would not be heated more than necessary. The result should be condensation of water inside the cone structures, and if provided for the formation of a pool/pond. The walls of these cone structures may be expected to be rather thick, as boring tunnels is going to provide a lot of tailings. Without a struggle to heat the cone, and with methods of shielding the surface of the cones from solar heating, I would expect the walls of the cones to be naturally cold on Mars, and in many places also to a lesser extent on Earth.

Providing (Maybe LED) lighting in side the half filled tunnels is an option not a requirement. But if you do, even though the LEDS were very efficient, heat will build up. You could dump that heat into a ice covered water reservoir, or dump the air above the water into a cold cone.

I myself believe that for sure there can be solar electric power schemes, nuclear power schemes, and perhaps atmospheric chemical electrical power. The last item is not proven, but I think hints strongly at possibility by now.

What sort of agriculture could you do in half filled water tunnels? Well duck weed is a easy start. Other aquatic stuff of course. The duck weed at least is edible and I think lends itself to mechanized maintenance. That could be a good thing. We are looking for efficiency "AND" capability. Of the two, I prefer capability with efficiency. Dim wit post human cultures think it is very clever to show how they can triumph over capability with efficiency. Nasty things should be done with those types.

That's another little piece of the puzzle, and good enough for goodnight!

Really on Mars at least we will want a dry tunnel system distinct from the half wet tunnel system, and a pipeline/sewer system with it's own distinct methods.

As stupid as it sounds at first tunnels with robot electric canoes, and robot portage apparatus, is how you may move bulk goods about in an optimally per unit of land populated city. What optimal is, will be a good question.

Yup, enough for tonight.

Hammer away if you like. I can handle it.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-15 23:06:03)

SpaceNut · 2018-12-16 09:58:13

Tunnels are good in that they can provide; shelter for CME or other possible radiational exposure, chambers for growing food, filling as artificial fish tank, Holder of bulk water supplies, Bulk gasses storage and of course with all of the surfaces being sealed for all function requiring them. All of these functions tie in with your other topic of Pipelines being created as well.

Power Distribution by pipelines on Mars.

As you suggest the disposal of the boring work tailings will get recycled other wise we are wasting the energy used to do the boring it to any shape of building type we will need.

Robotic Mining

Use of artificial lighting is a must in the underground world as natural lighting as it might not be possible in some areas of the tunnels and would not be capable of sealing to give the overall intensity along its length but some is better than none without addition work to create light pipes inside these tunnels.

Mars Colonization Program - Mission 1: Your Comments?

Of course the typical sewerage and other such will support of a city above will be needed as well in the planning layout of what we do on the surface. Think master plan.

Sewage treatment

Industrial development on Mars

Any thing is possible with cash to support mass of delivery system used to get to mars in any materials and equipment required to build up mars for human occupation.

All of this leads into Constructing a larger settlement - One idea

Void · 2018-12-16 10:37:20

That seems correct.

A possible use of artificial lights, is that you could overbuild your energy capacity, in the case of solar, and perhaps other energy.
Then for most photo crops, you should be able to simulate to the extent helpful to growth, an optimal illumination. That would most likely be around lets say a number of hours where the sun is highest in the sky. Otherwise, you could simulate to a lesser or greater extent a more cloudy day. This should make it possible to trick the crops into thinking they are in the part of the season you want to convince them they are in. And yet you can load level the power system doing this.

One thing to keep in mind with tunnel systems, will be that if you have a large agricultural crop in them, vegetation or especially something like fish, you could have a die off which would make the atmosphere within disgusting and potentially deadly for a period of time. Planning would be required to handle that. So, I think that especially if you are going to have tunnels half filled with water with fish in them, or even duckweed or whatever, that system should be isolated from other tunnel systems, so it can be closed off when necessary.

……

All evidence says that SpaceX will "Mine" water ice. I guess that is where things may need to start.

But my feeling is that if you are doing tunnels and have a large city then you should put a tunnel under a appropriate ice slab, and arrange for the lower portions of that ice slab to melt, so that you can extract large quantities of the water to the city as "Make Up" water, to replace that which is used up by various activities.

Ice Slab info:
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/steep- … buried-ice
http://astronomy.com/news/2018/01/martian-ice
https://www.financialexpress.com/lifest … rs/134992/

The first settlement I presume will be based on ease of early needs, which could be different later from a larger potential somewhere else.
So, there could be more than one settlement planed early on. Or if you can find the perfect spot, then focus everything on that.

I could go overtime blabbermouthing, but maybe it can be better to do things more gently per this and the related topics, maybe over some days and weeks.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-16 10:45:33)

Void · 2018-12-16 11:36:05

Since you did bring this up Spacenut in your post #5;
Quote

Tunnels are good in that they can provide; shelter for CME or other possible radiational exposure, chambers for growing food, filling as artificial fish tank, Holder of bulk water supplies, Bulk gasses storage and of course with all of the surfaces being sealed for all function requiring them. All of these functions tie in with your other topic of Pipelines being created as well.

I see three ways to light up the tunnels with perhaps LED's.
1) Normal electric.
2) The Methods of the pipeline topic.
3) Pneumatically from stored liquid air.

#1 consumes valuable metals, and could be electrically dangerous.

#2 has been discussed in the pipeline topic. I will say that any leaking hydrogen in small quantities should be consumed by microbes. Your "Light Bulb" would be composed of LED's perhaps, and a device that turns chemical energy (Hydrogen, Oxygen) into electricity in the device, with an exhaust of water vapor. This will require good ground fault protections in each "Bulb", and of course means to detect significant Hydrogen leaks will be a must. Further the tunnel system will have to be designed so in the event of an explosion the damage is kept local.

#3 is of interest. The Martian cold should be helpful to liquify air. Cone/Domes of boring bricks could be a place to keep storage tanks for liquid air. Who knows maybe even a rock basin with a lining would do it. That then would have a cone/dome above it.

Even with efficient LED's, heat may build up in the tunnels. So you have two fluids you can use to transfer it out. You have water and air.

But if you have pneumatic plastic lines under the water that lead up to "Light Bulb" assemblies, you can also flow dry cool air to the assemblies, and the dry air discharged, will also pick up moisture from the water as it flows above the water. This would provide evaporative cooling as well. Of course individual "Bulb" ground fault protective methods have to be built into each lighting fixture.

So then what remains is to convert the liquid air to pressurized pneumatic piped power. During days, a relatively simple solar method may be available. Otherwise you have rather warm water in the half filled tunnel system.

Your liquid air being converted to pressurized warmer air, you have an opportunity to turn an electrical turbine. So, now you have an energy storage system, which may cool and light your half filled tunnel system, and you can breath it's exhaust. Even during the night or a dust storm. (Up to a point).

It is a tempting method I feel.

Edit....One more thing needed. A reservoir for the liquid air converted to pressurized air. The solution I have for now is more Cone/Domes. Those to have variable pressure. You allow warm air into them during the day, and then maximize the cooling of the air. Keep sunlight from directly touching the cone/domes. Then when the air has been cooled, you liquify it, and return it to the liquid air tanks.

This is not a perpetual motion machine. Solar or Nuclear or maybe even atmospheric chemical energy would be the true mover of the system. Liquid air just stores power, and air, and cooling methods.

I ran across an article recently that claimed that it is possible to cool through certain wavelengths of radiation that the Earths atmosphere does not block. I do not understand it much, and could not find it again. However perhaps Mars would have certain infrared windows, that could be exploited. I am not sure how that would be done. But any method that helped to make liquid air easier to produce would be worth a look. Perhaps if there is a method it will pop up again.

Periodically you would defrost the cold cone/domes, to get the moisture out. And then have water which may have a special use.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-16 12:00:37)

tahanson43206 · 2018-12-16 13:08:02

For Void:

I thought of you and your water pipes under the surface of Mars, when I heard this story today:
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/05/60862256 … rnia-waves

It is not out of the question for an entertainment venue similar to this to exist on Mars, assuming a water rich solar object comes by within collection range. The waves created by the machinery in the lesser gravity of Mars would (presumably) attract surfers from around the Solar System.

(th)

Void wrote:

So, more progress of my kind, as I may be a hero/zero in my own mind.
Per post #1, should boring company type tunneling occur, and if tailings need constructive disposal, (This is more or less a review), we would hope to have a cement or glue/resin. I think the glue/resin is going to come from the atmosphere and water.
So, for the half water filled tunnels, a method could be formed where the air in the tunnels is passed to these structures which would not be heated more than necessary. The result should be condensation of water inside the cone structures, and if provided for the formation of a pool/pond. The walls of these cone structures may be expected to be rather thick, as boring tunnels is going to provide a lot of tailings. Without a struggle to heat the cone, and with methods of shielding the surface of the cones from solar heating, I would expect the walls of the cones to be naturally cold on Mars, and in many places also to a lesser extent on Earth.
Hammer away if you like. I can handle it.

Void · 2018-12-16 14:39:16

tahanson43206

Good post actually. Going to Mars or imagining a Mars is much better with fun, entertainment, prosperity, and success. Why aim for less?

Reality can bite, but swinging on the stars is what it is about.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=would+you … lang=en-US

That is related to VOID childhood cartoon land.

……

Anyway, really yes, why not try?

But this is what they did to us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYAUAELUSts

Cartoons like that, or mice and farm animals, then maybe a ride on the school bus and to school.

But they got us here, better than I might.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-16 15:02:29)

Void · 2018-12-16 15:08:59

https://mashable.com/article/boring-com … 5.sDr20OqV

Necessary comment=OK~!

Void · 2018-12-16 15:12:50

https://mashable.com/article/boring-com … 5.sDr20OqV

Necessary comment=OK~!

Void · 2018-12-16 22:03:36

A few details may remain, or more will emerge later.

Yes tahanson43206

For human mental health aesthetic things do matter. An example is perhaps being in a enclosure with sunlight and green plants.

One such experience of value I might propose "Again" is something like a Cupola on the top of a pseudo stone cone/dome structure.

That would include windows to view outside from a high place. Also sunlight coming in. Green plants, and a library type situation as well. Just a type of happy place, but rather passive.

I believe in separating food production from aesthetic needs. To demand aesthetic needs be met for food production would be to impose impediments to food productions.

If you want to surf on Mars, then I suggest either a pseudo stone cone/dome structure of a very large size. If you have a very prosperous society perhaps you could have a projector which would shine an illusion on the inside of such a cone/dome. For aesthetic desires. Keeping human psyche(s) in better health. We might hope.

…..

I suggest for a huge enclosure for such a purpose, that a modified boring process be developed. Dig a increasing diameter hole down-down-down. Of course closed off from surface pressure. In other words it would perhaps go down miles and increase in circumference as you went down. Sandstone would likely be the rock to dig that in. Of course with so much tailings, you would want to build pseudo rock cone/dome structures on the surface. Lots of them. Lots of them.

At the bottom of the chamber, would you put a centrifuge? Would it be in a vacuum chamber? (I think). Need some really good bearings. Maybe air bearings.

A little imagination is not such a bad thing perhaps.

I really intended to do some more technological follow up but maybe tomorrow. But yes why should we just choose not to think big?

Tomorrow, a somewhat better condenser process for capturing moisture in air to water and not frost, and also to facilitate the creation of liquid air.

It's nite nite time.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-16 22:20:38)

Void · 2018-12-17 08:03:11

A few minutes available.

I would like to say that humid air from an underground source, human made tunnel system, could be treated to lower the Relative Humidity in two stages.

A first stage might be a cone or dome structure of pseudo rock, where the interior temperature is cooler by perhaps 20 degrees or more than the air to be treated. 80 degF against 60 degF or 26.7 degC against 15.5 degC. If the relative humidity of the humid air was 50% and it got cooled in the cone/dome to the degree previously mentioned or a bit more, then the cooled air should approach or exceed a relative humidity of 100%. But I would think that a cone/dome temperature of close to the freezing point of water would be preferred, and quite attainable on Mars, and that would wring quite a bit of the moisture out.

So then the moisture collected can be used most likely as a rather high quality water presuming the process of condensation on a surface did not introduce any toxins of significance.

There could be a second stage of condensation where, you would use a frost and defrost cycle. You would have serial air flow into the second cone/dome, and that cone dome you would keep at sub-freezing temperatures, to get the relative humidity down more, and the temperature of the air down more. For this one however, you would need to have a means to remove the frost, and regain it as water. I am thinking some kind of a chipping process could be considered. Maybe even a laser method??? Or a mechanical method.

Now the air has been cooled through 2 stages, but you could do two stages more.

You might have to dry the air further perhaps with a reusable chemical.

The third stage could have a compressed air tank in it, where you compress and chill air into a tank inside of a cone/dome.
A device which is built to get the temperature of the presumably thick walls of the cone/dome down more towards the Martian low temperatures than the high temperatures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Mars
Quote:

Differing in situ values have been reported for the average temperature on Mars,[21] with a common value being −63 °C (210 K; −81 °F).[22][23] Surface temperatures may reach a high of about 20 °C (293 K; 68 °F) at noon, at the equator, and a low of about −153 °C (120 K; −243 °F) at the poles.[24] Actual temperature measurements at the Viking landers' site range from −17.2 °C (256.0 K; 1.0 °F) to −107 °C (166 K; −161 °F). The warmest soil temperature estimated by the Viking Orbiter was 27 °C (300 K; 81 °F).[25] The Spirit rover recorded a maximum daytime air temperature in the shade of 35 °C (308 K; 95 °F), and regularly recorded temperatures well above 0 °C (273 K; 32 °F), except in winter.[26]

So, the device may be able to hold an average lower than 180 K even on the equator, and lower towards the poles. So the compressed air being cold, more might be stored in the compressed air tank.

So, doing this much then you already do have a source of pneumatic stored power, especially if you warm up the withdrawals with solar? energy.

But you could do a fourth cone/dome with a cryogenic tank in it's bottom. Liquid air. Withdrawing the liquid air will be particular to method as you could also separate Nitrogen and Oxygen by some methods. For what I already speculated on you would not want to.

And that should be enough on this stuff, unless something else dawns on one of us.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-17 08:17:51)

Void · 2018-12-17 16:48:27

Photo Electric Hell Chambers (Possibly with greenhouses).

Thinking very big, asking questions. Can I screw up and have to admit I didn't get to what I was after? Sure, but here goes.

The desired outcome for this thinking is a source of electricity which endures 24/7 but only up to a point for a global dust storm

……

Briefly describing the method, and objectives.
-Superheat a fluid to incandescence with a solar power tower method. (Likely fluid to be compressed Martian atmosphere).
-Have a giant cave. Carve one downwards in a shape. Perhaps in the shape of a cone.
-Inject the superheated incandescent fluid into the chamber at the upper portion.
-Cause various portions of the chamber to glow at certain "Black Body" temperatures. Perhaps short infrared, and red. If the technology evolves the to even shorter wavelengths.
-Place suitable solar panels in the lower part of the chamber.
-Possibly try to put greenhouses with fluid cooling at the bottom of the chamber. (Very optional).

……

Why? Well, I want to store energy of heat in the upper chamber, and convert it's photo emissions to electricity in the lower portions. If possible, I want to consider even greenhouses at the bottom, but they will almost certainly require a fluid cooling.

……

We have looked at these solar cells before. Especially Spacenut and myself.
https://phys.org/news/2016-08-high-temp … solar.html
Quote:

In experiments, the new absorbers were shown to operate at a temperature of 800 degrees Celsius and to absorb light of wavelengths ranging from 300 to 1750 nanometers, that is, from ultraviolet (UV) to near-infrared wavelengths.

I am pretty sure we are not going to want to bother with the U.V. or probably anything above red at first, so perhaps the cells can be simplified, and made cheaper. We might hope.

The temperature of the color of Red is said to be 1000 K. If it exists in the chamber, you can expect that near infrared will accompany it, from a lower temperature.

If I have this right, converting Kelvin to Celsius, we get:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=convert+k … lang=en-US
726.85 degC. This is below 800 degrees Celsius, so perhaps in the survival range of the high temperature Danish solar cells.

But we may have at least 3 methods to isolate the solar cells and (Vaguely proposed greenhouses) from the highest temperatures at the top of the hell house.

1) Stratification. If it is Martian compressed air heated to incandescence, introduced at the top you can expect stratification within the "Hell Chamber".

*Doing that may be enough that we could attach the high temperature solar cells to the lower walls. And with that an the two other items as appropriate we may kick the incandescence to a hotter flavor above red.

2) A green house of glass at the bottom. It is not strongly defined if the high temperature solar cells would be below near the floor of the "Hell Chamber", or above the greenhouse/glasshouse and so attached to the walls.

3) And then a fluid cooling method. I might think water, but it could be a gas. The coolers at the surface being "Cone/Dome" houses perhaps.

The cooling fluid may or may not be water. Evaporation as a method to return it to the surface coolers with much warmed up air.

And so agriculture in the greenhouses? Perhaps rice paddies.

Should you keep the pressure relatively low, say 1/4 to 1/3 bar, then the evaporation process will work much better to cool the greenhouses of rice paddies.

But if you only have red light that may not please the rice, so you are going to likely want blue LED's powered from the high temp solar cells to improve the spectrum.

……

For Earth or Mars, these "Hell Houses" might tend to be flooded by ground water from aquifers. No promises there from me. Figure it out.

We need specific information for locations on Earth and Mars for that.

Not necessarily a bad thing, but something that has to be factored in.

And yes, I don't know how rice would do with 24/7 red light. Genetic engineering?

Any comments?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-17 17:17:53)

SpaceNut · 2018-12-17 19:21:04

I agree that we will need time to smell the Roses and any other flowers grown for color and odor but for its value in the sanity of mind.

The current 35% efficient cells on the rovers are a 3 junctioned materials to allow for selective bands of light to generate power within them.

We take for granted the energy that the sun provides which make life here possible.
https://ecgllp.com/files/3514/0200/1304 … iation.pdf

Solar obsorbtion of energy as heat on a surface is what I am looking for to be forth in the high temperature panels as that will say how muh reflection are per meter we will need to get the most out of them on mars even if we cool them to keep them stable.

Void · 2018-12-19 13:56:31

I believe that in fact there could be a place for ambient pressure Hell Holes on Mars, and maybe Earth.

Say you dug a diagonal tunnel from the surface to a deepness desired. Then you pump concentrated photons in during the day with a heliostat concentrating mirror. In the night, a door could close the opening, to reduce radiative and other thermal losses from the tunnel.

Should you have a sufficient temperature to emit near infrared, red, maybe even hotter values, and should you have high temperature solar cells further in in the tunnel, you might have a 24/7 electrical source. Sort of. I mean how you construct it where it is, will determine how much of a storage device over time it can be.

As for Lava Tubes and constructed caverns on Mars or the Moon, for this purpose they may not need to be pressurized to be of value.

Lets just say a heat source of some kind, maybe a toaster oven of great magnitude. Less desirable because I presume you are powering it with solar cell produced electricity on the surface, but still a way perhaps to store "Solar" energy over long periods of time. Of course although you would not have to hold pressure, you would need to take measures to hold "Photons" emitted from the storage rock, so that they would reheat the rock, or stimulate electricity inside of high temperature solar cells.

Done.

Void · 2018-12-19 14:14:42

Now on to Elon Musk reality now:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … smsnnews11
Quote:

Elon Musk’s first Boring Company tunnel opens, but the roller-coaster ride has just begun
Geoffrey Fowler 6 hrs ago
Photo gallery by Reuters
HAWTHORNE, Calif. — For Elon Musk’s very difficult year, there’s a light at the end of the tunnel.
Specifically, it’s a 1.14-mile tunnel the inventor and beleaguered CEO of Tesla Motors says is a first step in solving “soul-destroying” urban traffic. In 2016, Musk — already busy running two high-profile companies — founded a construction firm called the Boring Company to tackle gridlock by drilling underground. Some thought it was a joke. Two years of big promises and $40 million later, his just-in-time innovation machine delivered a functioning test tunnel on Tuesday.
What’s it like to ride through Elon’s tunnel? Bumpy, but that’s all part of the ride on a Musk enterprise.
Subscribe to the Post Most newsletter: Today’s most popular stories on The Washington Post
I had the chance to zip through in a Tesla Model X at a launch event that was part Musk pep rally and part amusement park ride. The tunnel runs about 40 feet underneath a road alongside the headquarters of SpaceX, another Musk venture located in this Los Angeles suburb. With an inner diameter of just 12 feet, the tunnel is smaller than most subway systems and just wide enough to fit a single car, which makes its way down to the tunnel through an elevator.
Our elevator was hidden in the back lot of what had formerly been the Los Vegas Kitchen Cabinets store, but is now a well-camouflaged Boring building protected by armed guards. After we pulled through a gate into a platform about the size of two standard parking spaces, the ground dropped beneath us through a circular opening until we were facing the entrance to the tunnel. Batman would have been jealous.
© Pool/Reuters Guide wheels added to the front of a Tesla Model X keep it aligned while traveling through the Boring Co. test tunnel. (Robyn Beck/Pool via REUTERS)
My test Tesla had been modified with an additional set of guide wheels — sticking out in front like a pair of ears. Those aligned with the edges of the tunnel, turning the consumer electric SUV into a kind of rail-guided train. It’s like running your car through an automated carwash, but much faster.
Once a light at the front of the tunnel turned green, the car was off. White paint and blue lighting along the top of the tunnel eased some of the feeling of being trapped underground. The Tesla, which has autonomous capabilities, did much of the driving itself — navigating curves and adjusting its speed while locked with those alignment wheels — but there was still a trained driver behind the wheel.
Despite the automation, the experience was turbulent. The car jostled with many bumps in the concrete along the bottom of the tunnel, even though our top speed reached just 49 miles per hour. (The proximity to the tunnel walls made it seem like we were going faster.) Boring’s first outing was less polished than either a typical tech product launch or the inaugural run of a new public subway service.
In a press briefing, Musk said Boring had run out of time to smooth out the test tunnel’s concrete base, which caused the bumpy ride. (Musk had originally promised to open the test tunnel last week.) Once Boring figures out how to efficiently smooth the concrete, Musk said cars could go through the tunnel at up to 150 miles per hour.
“We are obviously in the early stages here — this is a prototype and we are figuring things out,” said Musk. “What is really important is that there is a path finally, finally, finally I think … to alleviating traffic congestion in cities.”
The car-mounted guide wheel system is an about-face on the mechanism Musk had originally said would allow vehicles to travel through his tunnels at high speed. He had touted cars inside Boring tunnels would sit on electric skates. But Musk said having the cars move themselves was less expensive, and the wheels could be adapted to more kinds of cars.
I kept wondering: What about earthquakes, particularly in California? Musk said seismic risks were less of a concern underground. The area around Hawthorne experienced an earthquake while Boring was digging the tunnel; ground crew were shaken, but the team underground had no idea it even happened, Musk said.
So what makes the electric car pioneer and rocket inventor an expert in drilling? Musk thinks Boring can lower the cost of tunneling projects while also increasing their speed by 15 times through some relatively simple changes to the way typical tunneling machines work. “No Nobel Prizes needed here,” he said.
For one, it’s selling bricks made out of the dirt it digs up — which Boring demonstrated by building a medieval-style tower next to one of its test tunnel openings. At Boring’s launch party, actors portrayed characters from Monty Python guarding the tower.
Can a tunnel traffic system, which Boring dubs The Loop, really change traffic? Unlike a traditional subway or train system, Musk said the Loop’s main arteries won’t make frequent stops. Instead, they’d have a series of tributaries that would take people to local destinations with their own elevators to take vehicles up to the street.
Like other Musk endeavors, the idea is buzzy but requires a leap of faith.
Further bumps ahead including getting buy-in from finicky cities and communities who’d need to invest in huge networks of tunnels. Last month, Boring withdrew another project underneath Los Angeles’ Sepulveda Boulevard after community groups sued the government over plans to exempt the company from an environmental review process. It has plans for another tunnel in Los Angeles, as well ones in Chicago and the D.C. to New York corridor.
Another question: Is Boring just creating private tunnels for rich Tesla owners? Musk said other kinds of cars could be outfitted with the needed guide wheels. But they’d have to be electric vehicles to avoid filling the tunnels with exhaust. And the cars would also have to be autonomous to safely navigate at high speeds, entering the tunnels at a rate of about 1 per second.
The price of a ride is still to be determined, but Musk said he’d like it to be about $1 for a shared public transit car, or $4 for a private car.
Musk said Boring’s tunnels could eventually connect with another of his ambitious plans: a so-called Hyperloop that would provide very high speed travel across long distances using a vacuum tubes. “But that’s for another day,” he said.
Musk also his eye on one other use for Boring technology: digging around Mars, once his SpaceX firm is able to provide travel to the planet. “This is all a secret plot to build Mars technology,” he joked.

I am required to make a comment. I hate hackers.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-19 14:15:23)

Void · 2018-12-19 20:28:39

umm....

If we live in a false reality, I guess that is not my deal. In other words, if we are being messed with by someone else or something else, I bet I am not capable of getting out of that box.

Here I am not posting about that notion. I am interested in the pyramid itself. I don't care if it is a ruin, or by Martian climate.

I am interested in the object. I built a small one out of clay myself a long time ago. It was perhaps 2 feet wide as I remember. I made it on top of some plywood.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/10 … liens-NASA

The structure of course has four faces. It is a tetrahedron of course.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahedron

I intended it to be a solar device of simplicity. I spray painted the sun facing facet black with spray paint.

One could put a glass or some other glaze over that. Then insulate the two other above ground faces. Of course the foundation base is insulated by the ground.

So then the question would be how to extract useful life support from it on Earth or Mars. Pipes fluids (Fluids are liquids or gasses).
Something else?

Anyway a more simple way perhaps to use boring bricks / or dirt tailings.

I think I am being very nice to you.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-19 20:34:41)

Void · 2018-12-19 20:45:52

But of course if air conditioning is your preference, do it opposite. Reflect from the sun face, and radiate from the other faces. You may be able to capture winter and night cold to carry into the summer. That might have some value in the desert south west, and perhaps elsewhere. Obviously to carry cold into the summer from the winter will require a lot of mass. But the Boring Company may provide that.

Time for you to post a distraction.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-19 20:47:28)

Void · 2018-12-27 13:59:20

Per posts #14, #15 (Spacenut), and #16.

I have a few thoughts.

Ignoring for now the chances of supporting a life form in a very hot chamber, then some things, come to my mind.

For lava tubes, with a "Sky Light", I suggest that that skylight be exploited. A tower of movable mirrors above it. Heliostats around it.
Pump light beams into the lava tube. Collect heat.

Here for now I am not suggesting pressurizing the lava tube. I just want to collect heat into it. A longer term storage of it I hope. Even to red hot, maybe even to melted (Rather harder). Of course the infrared rays and red rays will want to come back out. So, I guess you tolerate that during daylight, and then roll the mirrors flat so that they pump them back down into the sky light, or you have to have some glass, that will tolerate thermal shock and maybe high temperatures, that perhaps could even be a one way mirror for longer wavelengths.

Something to work on up to futility, and then worked on again perhaps.

……

I am also thinking solar power towers and molten salts. If you have a natural chamber or a created chamber, could you pump incandescent molten salts into a basin in the chamber, and then place high temperature solar collectors at locations they can tolerate, and then have an electric source which more tends to be 24/7, much of the time?

Previously I had incandescent gas in the top of the chamber to heat the gasses, and hoped to pressurize the chamber, and put the solar cells and perhaps even life below, hoping that atmospheric stratification and perhaps a glass greenhouse glaze would moderate conditions for the solar cells. For life then you also might want to circulate water.

But with the elimination of life, and with keeping the chambers at or at a lower pressure than the Martian ambient pressure, then perhaps you have very little convection, and mostly energy is radiant in nature. Of course the red hot rocks may over time conduct heat to the surface, but there no machines I have read about that are 100% efficient.

Maybe this would be better than other energy storage devices????

And then maybe not.

Lasers shining through a small hole, into a cavern? Well probably expensive for a method.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-27 14:10:59)

SpaceNut · 2018-12-27 16:34:47

void wrote:

I am also thinking solar power towers and molten salts.

googled DIYmolten salt

https://hackaday.com/2015/08/03/buildin … lten-salt/

The electrolyte was a mixture of potassium chloride and lithium chloride and melts at about 350 to 400 degrees Celsius. He used nickel and magnesium for electrodes. Potassium chloride is used as a salt substitute, so it isn’t dangerous to handle (at least, no more dangerous than anything else heated to 400 degrees Celsius). Although he didn’t get the amount of power you’d find in a commercial design, it did provide 1.6V and enough power to light an LED.

So multiple plates can be used to create greater voltage to feed to LED circuits to create light.

http://newmediacentral.net/using-molten … al-plants/

Screen-Shot-2018-12-24-at-9.15.49-AM-980x460.png?resize=622%2C292&ssl=1

DYI caution for molten slat use

https://orbides.org/page.php?id=1005]A DIY Molten salt battery

https://www.treehugger.com/corporate-re … ttery.html

Hamilton Sundstrand's Rocketdyne segment will provide heat-resistant pumps and other equipment, as well as the expertise in handling and storing salt that has been heated to more than 1,050 degrees Fahrenheit. According to the company, molten salt loses only about 1% of its heat during a day, making it possible to store energy for long periods of time. The salt is a mixture of sodium and potassium nitrate. The company says plants using this method will be able to generate as much as 500 megawatts of peak power or run continuously at 50 megawatts. One megawatt is enough power to supply about 1,000 U.S. households.

Void · 2018-12-27 16:56:18

Thanks for that elaboration.

Yes, if a heat engine is better, then fine.

Either way, it would be nice to have electricity and heat on Mars, when you otherwise don't.

Done.

Void · 2018-12-30 15:35:39

I am going to continue with this. I think I see something of value to have.
What I present can have a relationship to this:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8874
SpaceNut indicate an interest in aquiculture to derive bio-degradable plastics.
But I think that also, many other things can occur with the expansion that I will present.

For this post I can suggest the potential of independent power grids in each cone. The objective to make use of institu resources, and to also use waste products, and to seek to use some things for more than one purpose.

In this case I am running on some assumptions.
1) That Copper and Aluminum will be precious, at least at first.
2) That a brick cone house while incorporating unusual methods to provide some tensile strength, and which will have some counter pressure capability, will have a metal net imposed around it to increase tensile strength for the structure. This then may allow for handing differential pressure between the inside and outside of the structure.

For #2, I am thinking Steel perhaps.

So I am thinking the net is on the outside, or embedded or both, and there will then be a need for two of them. One will be set up to handle a (-) voltage, the other a (+) voltage.

While steel is not a very good conductor, here we would tolerate that, and have significant mass of it as net/wire, and a very short distance for electrons or holes (Both) to travel to an electrical load. That load would be inside the structure.

So then additional requirements are electrical insulators where the two nets cross over, and at least two conductor paths through the wall of the building, to bring the two polarities inside.

Of course I am anticipating that solar panels will be hung on the outside of the building, perhaps from the nets even.

I also anticipate the usage of Heliostats to, when desired, boost up the amount of wattage to be delivered to the inside of the building.

I am guessing that this will probably be a DC Mini-Grid. It will have it's own load and its own heliostats. The two of them together, used to help modulate the current, voltage and wattage.

And then so, if you want to grow plants aquatic or terrestrial, or run power tools, or perhaps give Martian citizens a place to live with light, there it would be. Batteries? Well if they want them.

While greenhouses are a good way to go for other reasons, I think that where the water most accessible, say the mid latitudes, this scheme may be at its most potent. Per Solar flux received, you may then modulate the system. Should a global dust storm occur, then you mothball the whole thing, and descend into tunnels which would connect the various cone/domes.

Done I don't appreciate being harassed. That is not for anyone on this board.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-30 16:01:45)

Void · 2018-12-31 13:07:39

Heliostats if mass produced, might not be as expensive as it may sound. I think we would want to minimize the amount of Copper and Aluminum in them. Mars gravity being .38 g is an advantage. Also it may be possible to build them like a balance beam device to reduce forces need to move them.

I think where possible fiberglass could be a material of choice, maybe.

Motors could be pneumatic, or maybe somehow electrostatic.

One alternative I can imagine, is maybe wind up. If you had a robot(s) that would travel about and wind the heliostats up perhaps once a day....

Or the Robot(s) would be even more active than that. Would pick up the heliostats to move the placements per seasonal characteristics of sunshine. Maybe wind them up, or just dart about repositioning them as the sun transited the sky.

Any robots with batteries however, I expect would have to go into a slightly heated shed with a mega battery at night to be protected from the cold, and to recharge. Solar panels perhaps on the roof of the shed.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2018-12-31 13:11:44)

SpaceNut · 2018-12-31 16:34:07

A variable lifting device based on a teter toter approach where the fulcrum balance point starts with the unweight side being brought downward to load while the counter balance weight is moved away from the payload towards the opposite end of the beam via as you noted hydraulics or electrical motors..

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