Chemistry - Chemists - Chemicals

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-19 07:28:21

The forum contains another topic with the word "chemistry" in the topic. That is a topic by RobertDyck about Chemistry Videos.

This topic is created in response to a post by Void, in one of his many topics.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 40#p205240

In the post above Void mentions perchlorates, which are abundant on Mars (according to reports from scientists who've analyzed data from Mars).

This topic is offered to provide a place for members to post answers to questions about chemicals, chemical processes, chemists in the membership or otherwise worthy of note, and whatever else might fit into this category.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-19 07:44:24

In addition to the post about Void's discussion of perchlorates, this post will be used as an index to posts contributed by NewMars members:

1) Calliban on conversion of methane to a precursor of plastic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 60#p222360

***

In a recent post, Void mentions perchlorates in the context of Mars...

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 40#p205240

I asked Google for a snippet or two about perchlorates:

Description: Perchlorate is an anion (negative ion) with the formula C1O 4-.
PERCHLORATE FACTS | Science Inventory | US EPA
cfpub.epa.gov › si_public_record_Report
About Featured Snippets

and ...

Perchlorate - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Perchlorate
A perchlorate is a chemical compound containing the perchlorate ion, ClO−4. The majority of perchlorates are commercially produced salts.
Sodium perchlorate · Potassium perchlorate · Ammonium perchlorate
Conjugate acid: Perchloric acid
Molar mass: 99.45 g·mol−1
3D model (JSmol): Interactive image
Gmelin Reference: 2136

In the context of Mars, since I did not know about the variations of perchlorate types, I asked Google for help with the Mars variant...

More results
What kind of perchlorate is on Mars?
The Mars Odyssey orbiter has also detected perchlorates across the surface of the planet. The NASA Phoenix lander first detected chlorine-based compounds such as calcium perchlorate. The levels detected in the Martian soil are around 0.5%, which is a level considered toxic to humans.

One snippet offered a suggestion to rinse Mars soil in water ...

How do you remove perchlorate from Mars soil?
Farmers on Mars will need to remove any perchlorate from the Martian soil before using it. One way is to rinse the soil, since perchlorate dissolves in water. Another, more enticing way is to use perchlorate-eating bacteria, which produce oxygen as a metabolic byproduct.
Some Plants Grow Well in Martian Soil - Sky & Telescope
skyandtelescope.org › astronomy-news › some-plants-grow-well-in-martia...

In reading the above, I am left with a question about the fate of the chlorine that is present in perchlorate when it is rinsed in water.

If we had a chemist in the membership, this might be an opportunity to add a helpful post to the topic.

We have had PhD level chemists in the membership in the past, but (to my knowledge) the level of participation by those members is on the low side.

It would appear to me that since chlorine is a useful element, it is worth keeping in stock on Mars. However, it does not need to be present in the form of perchlorates, so it would be helpful to know how to most efficiently convert calcium perchlorate to sodium chloride, which is safe for humans (in moderation).

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-19 07:48:52

I am hoping a ** real ** chemist might contribute to this topic, but in the absence of one of those rare persons, it might be possible for the present membership to cobble together a reasonable approximation of a discussion on how to convert calcium perchlorate to sodium chloride on Mars.

Google tried to help:

Sodium chloride
Chemical compound
Sodium chloride, commonly known as salt, is an ionic compound with the chemical formula NaCl, representing a 1:1 ratio of sodium and chloride ions. With molar masses of 22.99 and 35.45 g/mol respectively, 100 g of NaCl contains 39.34 g Na and... Wikipedia
Formula: NaCl
IUPAC ID: Sodium chloride

How to get from calcium perchlorate to sodium chloride is the question I am offering the group for a post or two.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-01-19 12:26:34

Robert Zubrin's book "The Case for Mars" mentions plastics and chemicals. In 1999, on the original Mars Society forum, I posted some chemical reactions, adding detail to what Dr Zubrin said. My post is brief, professional chemists will tell you there's a lot more detail than what I posted. But it gives you an idea how to make some basic materials needed for modern society. When that forum shut down, I copied most of my posts and put them on the local chapter website. So here's a link...
Plastics

Some chemicals we can make:
hydrogen, carbon monoxide, methane, ethylene, benzene, toluene, naphthalene also known as phthalic acid, phenol, ethylene glycol, acetone, cumene, terebinth also known as oil of turpentine or spirits of turpentine.

Plastics listed on that page:
Polyethylene (PE, LDPE, HDPE), Polypropylene (PP), Acrylic, Lexan technically known as Polycarbonate (PC), Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC), Polystyrene (PS), Mylar (PET), Polybutadiene rubber (BR), Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene (ABS), Phenolformaldehyde also known as phenolic (adhesive for pink fiberglass batt insulation), Nylon, Melamine resin

RobertDyck · 2023-01-19 13:58:54

tahanson43206 wrote:

How to get from calcium perchlorate to sodium chloride is the question I am offering the group for a post or two.

Chemical reactions do not change elements. They simply rearrange atoms, combining them to form molecules. Calcium perchlorate is composed of calcium, chlorine, and oxygen atoms. There's no way to get sodium from that. You could start with sodium perchlorate, but if you start with calcium perchlorate the best you could achieve is calcium chloride aka road salt.

Ionic compounds are formed by evenly balanced positive and negative ions dissolved in solution. Salt is formed by free sodium and chlorine atoms dissolved in water, forming Na+ and Cl- ions. This can be precipitated out by evaporating water. You can boil off much of the water, but don't want to burn the salt, so boil the last of the water in partial vacuum which reduces boiling temperature of water.

But you want to reduce perchlorate to chlorine so it can form salt. That requires a catalytic reaction of some sort. Some bacteria break down perchlorate, using perchlorate as an energy source. One group studied the bacteria to find how they do it. They developed a catalyst inspired by the bacteria.
American Chemical Society: A Bioinspired Molybdenum Catalyst for Aqueous Perchlorate Reduction

Abstract
Perchlorate (ClO4–) is a pervasive, harmful, and inert anion on both Earth and Mars. Current technologies for ClO4– reduction entail either harsh conditions or multicomponent enzymatic processes. Herein, we report a heterogeneous (L)Mo–Pd/C catalyst directly prepared from Na2MoO4, a bidentate nitrogen ligand (L), and Pd/C to reduce aqueous ClO4– into Cl– with 1 atm of H2 at room temperature. A suite of instrument characterizations and probing reactions suggest that the MoVI precursor and L at the optimal 1:1 ratio are transformed in situ into oligomeric MoIV active sites at the carbon–water interface. For each Mo site, the initial turnover frequency (TOF0) for oxygen atom transfer from ClOx– substrates reached 165 h–1. The turnover number (TON) reached 3840 after a single batch reduction of 100 mM ClO4–. This study provides a water-compatible, efficient, and robust catalyst to degrade and utilize ClO4– for water purification and space exploration.

download full PDF document

tahanson43206 · 2023-01-19 15:55:56

For RobertDyck re several posts in this new topic ...

I ** wish ** we had a "like" feature so you could know your post(s) were appreciated, without having to create a post to say so.

I do have a minor objection to the implication that someone might imagine elements could be changed via chemistry. Howevr, there may be a reader at some point in the future for whom that point is worth making.

The reason I suggested Sodium as a suitable match for Chlorine from perchlorate on Mars, is that most folks know that Sodium does a good job of rendering Chlorine harmless.

In order to get from calcium perchlorate to sodium chloride, sodium would have to be made available.

I understand that sodium chloride is available on Mars, so I deduce there is Sodium available.

However, the solution you presented does not seem to require sodium.

It would appear necessary to download the pdf document to see how the research team dealt with the chlorine atoms released from the perchlorate molecules.

All that said, thanks (again) for the robust start you have given this new topic.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-01-19 17:35:13

Soil on Mars has all the salts: sodium chloride, potassium chloride, calcium chloride, sodium/potassium/calcium bromide. I think there are magnesium salts too. Perchlorate binds to all these alkali metals and alkali earth metals too. So you just have to remove oxygen to convert perchlorate to chloride ions. That gives you all 4 chloride salts. Calcium perchlorate becomes calcium chloride salt (road salt), sodium perchlorate becomes sodium chloride (table salt), and potassium perchlorate becomes potassium chloride salt (salt substitute). And of course magnesium perchlorate becomes magnesium chloride salt. Hydrogen perchlorate becomes muriatic acid (HCl).

Magnesium fertilizer is very important for plants because every molecule of chlorophyll requires one atom of magnesium. A quick Google shows usual magnesium fertilizer is either magnesium nitrate or magnesium oxide, or a mixture of the two. There's also magnesium sulphate. Mars soil has gypsum, but that's hydrated calcium sulphate. Hydrated magnesium sulphate is epsom salt. I suspect that's on Mars too.

Muriatic acid is sold as a fertilizer. I suspect it works by chemically reacting with minerals in sand or other rock minerals in soil, releasing metals as salts, combining oxygen from the rock minerals with hydrogen from the acid to form water. So muriatic acid is not a fertilizer itself, instead it's an acid that releases micronutrients from sand and gravel and mostly from loess (rock flour).

Silt is loess suspended in water. Mars has fines, which is basically loess. The usual source of loess on Earth is glaciers during the ice age grinding across rock, but on Mars fines are formed by wind. Convert Mars fines to loess by soaking in water and breaking down perchlorate. Agriculture says an ideal soil is a mixture of loess, clay, and peat moss. The peat moss adds organic matter, and holds water. Mars ~~soil~~ dirt has some clay. I just striked out "soil" because according to agriculture science it must contain organic matter to be called soil. Mars surface material does not have any organic matter, so it's dirt. The word "regolith" was created to describe surface material of the Moon. The Moon is entirely igneous, pulverized by billions of years of meteorites and micrometeorites. Mars is not entirely igneous, there's also sedimentary minerals and hydrated material like clay. So the most accurate word to describe the loose non-aggregated surface material of Mars is dirt.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-10-01 14:04:59

A Mars biofuel and ethylene Chemicals centre?

https://www.theguardian.com/whats-possi … ssil-fuels

Researchers use cellulose to develop slow-release fertilizer and a self-fertilizing propagation pot

https://phys.org/news/2022-10-cellulose … ation.html

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-10-01 14:09:01)

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-06 14:02:22

This post is a request for someone to provide a summary (written for NewMars readers) of the process needed to convert methane to gasoline and other long-chain hydrocarbons. It will be interesting if methods are offered for manufacture of gasoline from other feedstock, but the specific material I would like to see fed into the process is methane.

For our members who are adept at searches ... the answer to my question may already be covered in the 20+ years of forum archives. If that is the case, please provide links and a brief description of what the post at the link contains..

(th)

Calliban · 2023-12-06 16:47:59

Kbd512 referenced a company that was attempting to do exactly this.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10059

Last edited by Calliban (2023-12-06 16:49:46)

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-06 20:28:54

For Calliban re #10

Thank you for finding and showing that post by kbd512 .... I had forgotten it, and appreciate your reminding me, and perhaps others who might be interested in the work of Robert McGinnis.

I found a patent which appears to have been issued to Robert McGinnis and associates. The patent is available as a pdf to download from the patent website. Pub. No. US 2018/0345228 A1 Dec. 6, 2018 (by coincidence exactly 5 years ago). I do not have a pdf reader on this machine, so will type the abstract...

Forward osmosis membranes include an active layer and a thin support layer. A bilayer substrate including a removable backing layer may allow forward osmosis membranes with reduced supporting layer thickness to be processed on existing manufacturing lines.

This patent would be for a part of the process described in the post by kbd512.

At this point, I am unsure of how my opening question about methane feeding into production of longer hydrocarbon chains might be answered by the work of McGinnis and associates.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-07 09:15:04

The conversation with ChatGPT(4) at the link below covers part of the process(es) that go into (or might go into) making long chain hydrocarbons from raw ingredients.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1acz … sp=sharing

The key takeaway for me is the realization that making long chains requires starving the supply of hydrogen. This is because long chains require that one or more of the four available carbon bonds must be taken up by another carbon atom, instead of by hydrogen as is the case with methane.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-07 13:35:16

The conversation with ChatGPT(4) at the link below takes up the question of long chain hydrocarbons.

The purpose of the inquiry is to attempt to learn what would be involved in making liquid hydrocarbons from scratch, using carbon and hydrogen as inputs. The transcript shows that of all the hydrocarbons methane has the most energy per kilogram, and that as carbon chains are extended the energy per kilogram goes down. This makes perfect sense, since it is the hydrogen bonds that store the energy that is released. However, the handling characteristics of long chain hydrocarbons vary from obnoxious to acceptable. Kerosene, gasoline and diesel are liquids that have evolved over many decades to the forms they possess today.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gtxvrdmt … j1x1x&dl=0

The key concept to carry away from this post is that in making longer chains than methane, it is necessary to "starve" the mixture of hydrogen. This will force the carbon atoms to form bonds with themselves, which will lead to chains of various lengths.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-12-30 13:47:04

Back on Earth

Chemical accident at Disneyland sends worker to hospital
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/chemical-acci … 40623.html

In tiny US community, big questions about chemical recycling
https://www.albianews.com/news/national … 79c61.html
a quiet, unassuming plot of land

This is a general chemicals thread discussion talking about LCO2, Water, Nitric oxide, acetylene, Magnetite, Silicone polymer, Organic Solvents, heavier hydrocarbons, Neon, Krypton, Nitric and sulfuric acid.

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6107

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-12-30 13:48:04)

RobertDyck · 2023-12-30 15:43:01

In post #13 Tom asked how to make long chain hydrocarbons. Short answer is the Fischer–Tropsch process. That uses heat and an iron catalyst.

To start I will quote from my own webpage. In post #4 I posted a link to my plastics page.

Carbon Monoxide
Carbon Monoxide is produced by the process is called Reverse Water Gas Shift (RWGS):
CO2 + H2 → CO + H2O
This reaction is mildly endothermic, occurring rapidly with an iron-chrome catalyst @ +400°C or greater.
Energy consumed: 9 kcal/mol
This reaction is driven directly by heat. Energy per kg of CO: 691.3 kcal
Methane
Methane is the smallest hydrocarbon, consisting of a single carbon atom with 4 hydrogen atoms. The majority of this gas will be used for fuel: rocket fuel, rover, or back-up generator. The process is a Sabatier reactor:
CO2 + H2 → CH4 + 2 H2O
An alternate method uses RWGS with electrolysis:
3 CO2 + 6 H2 → CH4 + 4 H2O + 2 CO
Ethylene
Ethylene is not a plastic, but it is the starting point to manufacture almost all other plastics. Ethylene is sometimes called Ethene, but don't confuse it with Ethane (spelled with an "a"). Ethylene is two carbon atoms double bonded to each other, and each of the extra bonds of the carbon atoms has a hydrogen atom stuck to it. The formula is C2H4 but to demonstrate the structure it is often written as H2C=CH2. This description for making it is taken from the book "The Case For Mars" page 182.
Hydrogen and carbon monoxide can be reacted in the presence of an iron catalyst to form Ethylene:
2 CO + 4 H2 → C2H4 + 2 H2O
Heat producted: 49.4 kcal/mol
Heat per kg of ethylene: 1761 kcal

That web page lists details to make plastics and a few chemicals commonly used today. However, for a more general means to make long-chain hydrocarbons such as gasoline, there's...
Wikipedia: Fischer–Tropsch process

Ps. Yes, an off-shore oil rig that produces natural gas as a byproduct, instead of burning off as flair gas, it could be converted on-site to gasoline. Once liquid at room temperature, it could be easily stored until a tanker picks up. Fischer–Tropsch will not produce a tightly controlled product, it will probably have to be refined at a refinery on land, but converting to a liquid makes it practical to store and transport instead of wasting.

SpaceNut · 2024-03-29 17:21:41

A catalyst for converting carbon dioxide, the main cause of global warming, into ethylene using vitamin C

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-04-19 12:26:03

Organic Chemistry: Why study it? What can it teach us about finding life beyond Earth?
https://www.universetoday.com/166674/or … ond-earth/

Universe Today has recently had the privilege of investigating a myriad of scientific disciplines, including impact craters, planetary surfaces, exoplanets, astrobiology, solar physics, comets, planetary atmospheres, planetary geophysics, cosmochemistry, meteorites, radio astronomy, and extremophiles, and how these multidisciplinary fields can help both scientists and space fans better understand how they relate to potentially finding life beyond Earth, along with other exciting facets. Here, we will examine the incredible field of organic chemistry with Dr. Andro Rios, who is an Assistant Professor in Organic Chemistry at San José State University, regarding why scientists study organic chemistry, the benefits and challenges, finding life beyond Earth, and potential paths for upcoming students. So, why is it so important to study organic chemistry?

Calliban · Yesterday 08:14:27

A new chemical reactor allows the efficient conversion of methane into propylene.
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas … ction.html

We will be producing methane as rocket fuel. Propylene is a feedstock for plastics manufacture, most specifically polypropylene. After polyethylene, this is the most widely produced and used polymer on Earth.

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