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I think that this matters a lot: https://www.msn.com/en-us/science/earth … r-AA1A1dc8  Quote:

So, this suggests that the Earth is a chemical reactor, that can vary its rate of CO2 production, and entombment.  I know that this can be a flimsy, excuse, but in realty do, we know what the production rate of CO2 is at this time, relative to that of the little ice age?

Simple logic indicates to me that more rain and snow will result, if a buildup of greenhouse gasses occurs in the atmosphere.  This is because, the depth of atmosphere will be largest over water, and less so over land.  So, greater evaporation will occur over water, and the land while perhaps warming up will not warm up as much as the water.  (This would presume that the warming did not cause an increase in ocean water turn over).

So, with more rain and snow melt water then there should be more sequestering of CO2 into weathered rock materials due to more hydraulic erosion.

In figuring out how to control the Earth's climate, we should look for tools that could both cool and warm it.  This is because a little ice age might greatly reduce the food production.  More rain from more CO2 should make it more possible to farmland for food.  A cooler dryer climate should reduce food production.

It is my suspicion that the climate doom goblins have been used by enemies of industrial and western cultures to erode the power of Industrial and Western cultures.  We might look to where alien power is coming from.  Alien Oil Money, China, and the general anti-colonial attitudes in the world.

I agree that the Colonial Era is best over, but I do not agree in the destruction of Industrial and "Western" cultures.

The input of CO2 into the Earth's atmosphere should to some extent be self-limiting.  For each increment of CO2 accumulated the warming effects should be less and less, as there are only some wavelengths that CO2 can block.  And the water cycle should be stimulated to circulate more water onto land to run off into the oceans.  This then should sequester CO2.

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Due to the prior 2 posts and the idea of humanoid and other robots on the Moon, I think that the Moon could after all become a significant thing, provided it does have water that could be used to fill a Stoke Space type 2nd stage.  This is not to discredit, the HLS Starship.  Actually, the Starship as automated could be very good to bring big payloads to the Moon, and the ships themselves may be practical to convert into pressurized space for a base or bases.

I think the two will cover a great many desires as for accessing the Moon.

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I did this post elsewhere about the "Grey Dragon" notion(s): https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 27#p230027

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I am still not sure how realistic the contents of the video are actually.  But it did make me think a bit more about things though.

Before HLS can be a real thing, tanker starships are needed.  And probably before that to keep SpaceX's finances healthy, then the ability to service Starlink is needed.

Starships do not need to be human rated, unless it is HLS to land on the Moon.

But I did start to think how could you stretch the capabilities of HLS?  The video implied that an HLS could land on the Moon and then ascend and go to LEO.  I am not sure it could.  But some interesting notions could be entertained.

We have elsewhere talked about stacking multiple devices in microgravity.

I am not suggesting replacing the SLS but eventually something interesting might be done.

What if you deployed two HLS ships to an elliptical filling orbit, one with cargo, and one without cargo.

If you could connect them nose to nose, then you could mimic the Apollo method for the Moon.  They would both go to Lunar orbit, but the one without cargo, would stay in Lunar orbit for the duration of the mission.  The one with Cargo would land, do a surface mission, and then ascend.   The ship without cargo would have conserved its propellants.  It is possible then that enough propellants would be reserved to get one or both ships back to an elliptical filling orbit.

In this plan, you would have the possible capability to abort on the way to the Moon, and return in one of the ships, if you had a major malfunction.

If over time LOX production on the Moon becomes a real thing then you could refill the Oxygen on the lander, while the orbiter might have extra Methane on board.

If space infrastructure becomes robust, then you might specialize the two ships.  One for landing and one to be the orbiter.  The orbiter might be stretched and not be fitted for landing on the Moon.

This might be sensible if a robust infrastructure in LEO would be able to send a rescue service, if the combination of the two ships was not enough to keep a crew alive, in some major event of trouble.

Sending two ships at a time might also give some additional radiation protection as well.

Supposing the two ships could do thrusting nose to nose, in coasting then they might align sideways, so that a crew might be protected from solar radiation and even some of the GCR, by getting the Methane tank of the orbiter in front of the crew section of the lander.  This presumes a crew is involved.

Obviously, a scheme like that could be helpful for getting crew to Mars as well.

Methane, and also some types of cargo might be used to shelter the crew area of another ship.

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Of course, then you need some ship that can do Earth Surface<>Elliptical Refilling Orbit.

Perhaps a fortified Dragon or maybe even Dream chaser might do, or may Stoke Space will have such an ability.

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In post #6, Calliban said:

A very nice idea.  But now consider the "Relativistic Electron Beam".
I may not understand this technology, but I hope it can be used internal to our solar system.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativis … ctron_beam
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So, after you fling a payload, can you beam heat and inertia to it?  Could you do it in such a way that you not only assist propulsion to the payload released but could spin up the Anchored ringworlds spin by using the recoil.  Then could you give modification to the path and speed of an incoming payload, and also use the recoil to spin up the Anchored ringworld?

I understand that unlike Photons which only carry inertia, Electrons do have mass.

So, while Isaac Arthur has presented a sort of extremely long rotating cylinder, I now tend towards non-rotating main structures which can be tubular or spherical, depending on how much heat you want to shed and other factors.

I don't consider the I.A. spinning concept as wrong, just it is another option.

I have included the idea of special sections where spin gravity could be as much as 1 g.  Also, I have considered the notion that methods to deal with microgravity promoted illnesses could be treated by methods other than 1 g conditioning.

A non-rotating shell, will need air cleaning, and humidity control.  So, I anticipate slow rotators inside of the main shells where near the hub, cooling will promote condensation.  This may also remove particulates out of the air.  The condensed water then of course could be a resource.  These rotators might be slow but it may be that plumbing of some sort would work with them.  Crops could be grown in them.  Of course Mushrooms, Algae, and Yeast come to mind.  These will not need light, but perhaps some light would be provided for the sake of humans.

Vascular plant crops might be grown in a similar fashion where some light is provided, but chemicals would mostly promote their growth.

These slow rotators would likely have cowlings around them to reduce the air friction, expenditure of energy.

The relatively small amount of light needed might come from Diodes, or perhaps Fiber Optics could bring some in from the space environment.

So, although over time ice might be developed as a building material, for now I am more looking at Slag/Tailings made into thick structure and having tensile reinforcement wrapped around them.

So, then rock processed for some metals and maybe Silica and Carbon, could contribute the Slag/Tailings to a main structure concept(s).

Ice might also be benefited by embedded tensile structure as well.

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A good topic.  Probably the next thing after Mars.  Actually, it might divert settlers from Mars after a while, as it may offer a great deal to people.

I believe that this falls into the vision of Dr. Zubrin as I have read it.  If we then simply say that our Moon is a wild card, then we might get most people to converge on a popular plan, I hope.  Over time our Moon may rise in value to be part of a trade pattern it gets included into, or it may only then be a sort of a scientific object for study.  Allow it to become what it will.

The method looks good for many worlds, but with Mars/Phobos/Deimos as a steppingstone, the Major Asteroids may become very attractive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
Image Quote:

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Regarding the last post, perhaps a closed loop CO2 heat engine where you use a powdered snow slurry to cool the cold side of the heat engine, it's closed radiator.

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I decided to put this here, as it does have political implications.  I have not reviewed it very well.  Was listening to it while doing breakfast and shower and so on.  I will want to review it again: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=WRVORC   Quote:

I think that indeed we need a more intellectual/scientific evaluation of processes, rather than "Hair Shirt Pseudo Religious Evaluations".

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I like that, but in the asteroid belt we may struggle to make ice a stable building material.  Going further out then yes it becomes more likely to be helpful, indeed.

I am currently running on the idea that Mars/Phobos/Deimos will be settled first, with the Moon being a wild card.

Then for a next step I am interested in major dwarf worlds, which could include Ceres, a recognized Dwarf Planet, and other items like Vesta, and 10 Hygea, maybe 16 Psyche.

I am very interested in Vesta, as it is supposed to be the last surviving Terrestrial Dwarf Planet/Dwarf World.  (It would probably be a Dwarf Planet if it had not had a big chunk(s) of it blown off by impacts).

Those impacts may have exposed the Mantle.  So, we may be able to think about very deep mining and getting into some very interesting ore bodies on Vesta.  Maybe Copper, which is going to be harder to get elsewhere.  We presume that 16 Psyche may provide Iron/Nickle.  Then most of the other big objects in the asteroid belt will be Carbonaceous with some likelihood of ices.

With sun shading perhaps building with ice may have some merit, but for Vesta, I am anticipating lesser amounts of Hydration.

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In my opinion a very mature example of this would be a electric propelled platform, which may move between various altitudes of orbit, in this example around the Earth.

My own view is that this could be powered by solar, but I do not exclude nuclear as an option.  It is just that solar is easier to gain permission for internationally and nationally.

So, in this example, I am presuming (1) A loading event in LEO> (2) Transit to HEO> (3) Cooking propellants> (4) Launching Chemical Stage> (5) Return to LEO.

I am supposing that the electric propulsion may be Argon based, although it looks like Neumann Drive and Magdrive could use solid propellants such as metals, Silicon or Carbon as propellants.  Also there seems to be some sort of plasma drive using water, being proposed/developed.

1) Early versions of this could provide Methane and LOX directly to the platform in Low Earth Orbit.  But it is my opinion that it would be better to load water and CO2 into the platform, as they present less of an explosive potential in LEO.  We don't want a big platform exploding in LEO and contributing to a Kessler Syndrome.  In LEO, a propellant such as Argon also must be brought up from the Earth's surface.

2) Transit to HEO.  This then would consume the electric power at that time to rise to a Higher Earth Orbit.

3)  Now you are no longer consuming electric power to do a change or orbit, so you can cook the H20 and CO2 into Methane and LOX.

4) Now you can refill a Starship, which has arrived by some method or other, then it can be launched to a mission.

5) Much of the Water, CO2, and Argon have been consumed, in the previous 4 steps, now if you have sufficient Argon or a substitute propellant, you may bring the platform down to a lower orbit for refilling.

In reality the filling orbit of the platform could be elliptical and not LEO.

Something like this could be set up for Mars also.  It would be tempting to go with solid electric propellants from Phobos/Deimos/Mars, but Mars can provide Argon, and water if needed.

In both the case of Earth and Mars, the platform does not suffer from diminishing sunlight as an electric mission from Earth to Mars would.  In the case of Mars, very light weight mirrors may be helpful to increase the solar flux to solar panels, or heat engines.

As this refilling method might come to exist, it is possible that the tank size of a Starship may be reduced and so to reduce its dry mass.  At least for the interplanetary ship type, and possibly for Lunar types.

So, with these platforms, it may be possible to exceed the efficiency of Chemical propulsions alone, I feel.

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Isaac Arthur has something to say about very long habitats in space: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBqGJl3A4tU
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It runs a bit close to some things I have tried to do on a much smaller scale.

It is a good "Dreamer" exercise, to explore how far you can go with a less usual concept.

It is fun, but I have a tendency now to not only adapt space materials into Earth replications, but to also consider how over long periods of time humans can be bio formed to be more tolerant of the space environment.

This is a source of fun and learning, I feel.

(th) has made a request in this post in another topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 31#p229931

Apparently, my prior materials are inferior to a proper method of teaching/explaining.

Perhaps this can help:
Just now, I am moving in the direction of "Buds".  I see a linear habit as the trunk of a plant, more than a river, and although the emphasis at its core is that "Stem" or "Trunk", branching and "Buds" are enhancements that could be included.

A "Bud" could be internal or external to the "Main", ("Stem" or "Trunk").

OK, we can try this:

I am currently exploring the idea that "Trunks", "Stems", and "Jars" can be microgravity, and of a range of types of pressurization.  But they may have "Buds" attached to or inside of them, to provide synthetic gravity.

In general, my notion is to have a private vacuum shell around each centrifuge.

In the drawing, the "Blue" items are what I might call "Spin Locks".  They could be variable in spin from 0 to Max, 1 g.  Some though would not be intended to provide more than "Sanitary" synthetic gravity.

Such may be a bathroom, a kitchen, or a bedroom or other choices.

The greater volume of pressurized space could be in microgravity.  In adapting crops to grow in such, I anticipate future discovery, of how life maintains form in 1 g, and how it responds and tries to cope with microgravity.  Over time I anticipate that discovery will say how to stabilize a human moving from 1 to 0 g habitation.

It may eventually be possible to signal chemically, bone maintenance, and muscle maintenance.  We don't know how that works yet but perhaps can discover a method.

This leaves at least 2 other major concerns.
1) The inner ear/nausea.
2) Blood Pooling in the upper body.

Both of these might be handled by a cyborg method.
1) Inner Ear?  Look into Neuralink, I think.
2) Blood Pooling? a alteration of the vascular system with adaptation methods from internal machines, such as pumps and valves.  But of course, this invites blood clots and causes strokes among other things.

So, rebuilding a human body to rapidly adapt to variable gravity fields, microgravity to 1 g, will require some special hard work, to discover what can be used that will not have bad consequences.

Tired of this for now.

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I agree.

Charon could be a very interesting case.  I think that in the end, some form of Fusion will emerge that can generate greater energy than it consumes.  It is not certain if that would be competitive with solar in some locations, or nuclear fission in others.

But Charon could have a massive cave system carved into it.

And then shelters you have suggested might be built from those extracted materials.

I am going to presume that the ices of Charon hold Deuterium.

I am going to imagine a solar system where stony/metal materials could be projected from sources to a place like Charon.

I like the idea of a building inside of an ice cave where heat pumps pull heat our of the ice cave and into the building.  Of course, depending on activities heat may build, up, but evaporative cooling may work quite well for Charon.

I am not sure, but I am imagining that if a magnetic field could be imposed on Charon, then you could vent water vapor to the surface to radiate excess heat, and may fall back as a snow, to be reused.

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