Mult staging from Microgravity Deep Space Support Methods

Void · 2025-02-23 11:22:30

I wanted to resist a new topic, but I think this is to be of value. Other similar efforts may end in Cul-de-sac results.

Void · 2025-02-23 11:23:35

In my opinion a very mature example of this would be a electric propelled platform, which may move between various altitudes of orbit, in this example around the Earth.

My own view is that this could be powered by solar, but I do not exclude nuclear as an option. It is just that solar is easier to gain permission for internationally and nationally.

So, in this example, I am presuming (1) A loading event in LEO> (2) Transit to HEO> (3) Cooking propellants> (4) Launching Chemical Stage> (5) Return to LEO.

I am supposing that the electric propulsion may be Argon based, although it looks like Neumann Drive and Magdrive could use solid propellants such as metals, Silicon or Carbon as propellants. Also there seems to be some sort of plasma drive using water, being proposed/developed.

1) Early versions of this could provide Methane and LOX directly to the platform in Low Earth Orbit. But it is my opinion that it would be better to load water and CO2 into the platform, as they present less of an explosive potential in LEO. We don't want a big platform exploding in LEO and contributing to a Kessler Syndrome. In LEO, a propellant such as Argon also must be brought up from the Earth's surface.

2) Transit to HEO. This then would consume the electric power at that time to rise to a Higher Earth Orbit.

3) Now you are no longer consuming electric power to do a change or orbit, so you can cook the H20 and CO2 into Methane and LOX.

4) Now you can refill a Starship, which has arrived by some method or other, then it can be launched to a mission.

5) Much of the Water, CO2, and Argon have been consumed, in the previous 4 steps, now if you have sufficient Argon or a substitute propellant, you may bring the platform down to a lower orbit for refilling.

In reality the filling orbit of the platform could be elliptical and not LEO.

Something like this could be set up for Mars also. It would be tempting to go with solid electric propellants from Phobos/Deimos/Mars, but Mars can provide Argon, and water if needed.

In both the case of Earth and Mars, the platform does not suffer from diminishing sunlight as an electric mission from Earth to Mars would. In the case of Mars, very light weight mirrors may be helpful to increase the solar flux to solar panels, or heat engines.

As this refilling method might come to exist, it is possible that the tank size of a Starship may be reduced and so to reduce its dry mass. At least for the interplanetary ship type, and possibly for Lunar types.

So, with these platforms, it may be possible to exceed the efficiency of Chemical propulsions alone, I feel.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-23 11:42:43)

Void · 2025-02-23 12:03:15

The title is annoying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlsYCn6jjmc
Quote:

It's Over For SpaceX... This Small Company Just Changed Space Travel Forever!
Space Frontier

Typical binary Zero-Sum evaluation method it seems to me.

It is obvious to me that if this company is able to make this work, then the next question is "Can it be sized up?".

If it can then perhaps it can go on top of New Glen, or New Armstrong, or SpaceX Superheavy.

But the upper stage of this device is said to have to run on Hydrogen, not Methane, so that is tricky. Also, some have ventured that its heat shield method could only work from LEO.

I don't expect the device to replace Starship, but the two upper stage methods may be complementary in nature, increasing the capability of space travel.

Of course I like that.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-23 12:08:45)

Void · 2025-02-23 16:01:33

Here is another video, in a large amount dealing with Stoke Space: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ee605ac09c Quote:

Big Metal Cooling Heat Shield! Stoke Space is Trying to Complete What SpaceX Starship Hasn't...
YouTube
GREAT SPACEX
467 views
2 days ago

I think it is likely that both Starship upper Stage and the Andromeda method will have value in the future.

If up Mass were water or CO2, then as a tanker it might be relatively safe, so launch facilities might be requiring less isolation from civilian facilities.

Of course, a big dump of CO2 could be dangerous as per an asphyxiation event possibility.

Just some reaching speculation.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-02-23 16:05:05)

Void · 2025-03-02 10:55:43

Isaac Arthur has a new video out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOWtNUpnpSA Quote:

Skyhooks, Rotovators & Space Ladders: Lifting Humanity To The Stars Without Rockets
Isaac Arthur
807K subscribers

Honestly, I regard all of these things to be "Down the Road", a little or a lot. But I enjoy the presentation and do think that the materials may have application eventually.

I appreciate at least one nugget of information in the presentation. That electric rockets are perhaps 10 to 20 times as efficient as chemical rockets. I expect Argon to be somewhere in that span. As for new devices such as Neumann Drive and Magdrive, I just don't know. I think they compare rather well though, on a guess.
Water Plasma Drive has been recently mentioned here that it another electric device with total qualities unknown to me.

The idea of depots for SpaceX Starship and I would think other ships, is already in circulation. It does tend to make more sense to fill a depot and then supply a mission from that depot, rather than to fill a mission in a string of launches. For the Moon a "Filling Orbit" is described as "Elliptical" in nature.

I suppose the next thing after doing that chemically, is to install supplemental propulsion methods to such a depot/transfer device.

Several possible methods might be used. If you have an elliptical orbit maintained, it might be caused to have a lower and a higher orbital limit. For instance, if you have the propulsive method, then you could fill the depot in LEO, and then lift it to an elliptical orbit for Starship to reach to be refilled.

The propulsive methods might include electric propulsion and air braking.
Eventually some work with the Earth's magnetic field might come into function for orbits of Earth, as well.

So, a Starship to the Moon could be partly refilled in LEO, and then jump up to the Elliptical filling orbit depot maximum.

There could be several versions of that, the most basic would be that you started with Methane and Oxygen as propellants directly to the depot, in LEO. In that case you would need active cooling to keep them in the depot tanks.

If you left a "Bakery" in the high elliptical orbit, then another alternative would be to simply bring water and CO2 to the "Bakery", and then process it into Methane and Oxygen. You might also create Hydrogen and Oxygen if a modified Stoke Spaceship was to be on its way to the Moon for service at the Moon. The water part is relatively easy to keep from boiling off. It also makes a good radiation shield. The CO2 is a bit more difficult, but I think with shading, maybe active cooling is not required. So, with those building blocks, you could cook up batches of Methane and Oxygen or Hydrogen and Oxygen in a rather high elliptical orbit of Earth. This I presume would be done in a similar manner as to do it on Mars with raw materials from Mars.

I think this could be taken even further, but shipping Water and something like Paraffin Wax or even Cellulose. Both of those should be relatively stable in Earth/Moon local microgravity conditions with minimal handling costs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraffin_wax
Quote:

CnH2n+2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose
Quote:

(C6 H10 O5 n)

Of these Paraffin can be burned in a rocket engine if desired. And it seems that various means can be used to get thrust from water as a propellant, perhaps as a plasma. But if you want to convert Paraffin, Celulose and Water to propellants, you can extract Oxygen from the water and then burn either paraffin or cellulose, to produce things useful like CO2 and more water.

You could use either Paraffin or Cellulose-Wood, the reduce Lunar Oxides. The byproducts might be metals, or a pathway to metals.

This could be a useful way to use the Stoke Spaceship to lift metals and Oxygen to orbit of the Moon, and then to separate the Oxygen from the Metals.

So, it might be possible that things like Water, Paraffin Wax, and Wood-like products could be stored at various locations to provide for refilling of spacecrafts.

In a like manner vegetation grown in greenhouses on Mars could be reacted with materials from Phobos or Deimos, to produce desired propellants.

Pyrolysis or some other form of solar energy would likely be involved.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-03-02 11:46:37)

Void · 2025-03-02 13:04:27

From the previous post, Quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraffin_wax
Quote:
CnH2n+2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose
Quote:
(C6 H10 O5 n)

I am wondering if a combination of substances similar to these could make a somewhat "Universal Substance of Use".

More or less paper or cardboard glued together with Parafin Wax, that can function as structure, and give radiation shielding, impactor shielding, and yet can be rendered into propellants.

Over time these would deteriorate in the space environment, but certain methods to keep heat away would help preserve the structure. And this material would be good compliment to a regolith Oxide material that might be extracted from a common space object.

The substance would require minimum packaging, and probably only shading not active cooling to preserve. Boiloff avoided then, until rendered into propellants.

This might be possible:

Packages or structures of a solid substance to be transferred. First lifted to orbit and then transferred to the ship that brings it up to the "Refinery" (Red) orbit.

Then the transfer ship might use a combination of electric propulsion and air braking to acquire the lower blue orbit again. If the transfer ship has good aerobraking capabilities, then other ships might be able to ride it from the refinery down to the lower "Blue" orbit.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-03-02 13:24:47)

Void · 2025-03-02 18:11:00

It has been confusing to me that headlines get all googly about the idea of getting to Mars in 2 weeks or something like that. Granted, if you have a habitat with all the infrastructure and tools needed to do Earth Equivalent capabilities, then indeed if you focus on getting perishable things like humans from Earth to Mars, that makes sense.

But Elon Musk has pointed out that an enormous amount of stuff has to go to Mars. But it is unwise to handle most stuff like it is perishable, as that implies a very fast trip with very poor efficiency.

It makes sense that typical chemical rockets were employed before more efficient electric methods. After all they were to a large extent invented as killing weapons and the electric cannot boost from the Earth to LEO.

Robert Zubrin does not favor fast trips to Mars, even if you had the propulsive methods. Instead, he seems to have favored an approximately 6-month trip, with a possible 2-year free return in the event of some types of mishap.

Mars Direct has been promoted as an option that could cause a there to be there, as far as Mars is concerned. Having a there be there, is of course a massive desire. It is not practical to bring all consumables from Earth for every human lifespan sent to a place like Mars.

I am going to still support the idea that something like Starship can be used to thread the needle and cause a there to be there. But now with new types of robots as precursors and helpers that is looking even more possible.

But I don't know if continuation of Mars Direct will continue to be the best practice once there is a there at Mars.

I have already speculated on an electric driven propellants handling method to position resources to allow refilling in high orbits for Earth.

For bulk materials, there is the idea of Electric Ballistic Capture to Mars. It is useful in that missions can leave the Earth to Mars, during a much broader window of time in years. You don't have to wait for the magic alignment of Earth and Mars about every two years. Also, it is thought that it can be more propellants efficient than Mars Direct. But when it arrives to be captured to Mars it will have taken more time, and also if it does not get more propulsion, it will eventually leave Mars orbit to go to interplanetary space again.

But if a station were set up in orbit at the edge of the Mars hill sphere, where the ship would be temporarily captured to, then assistive resources would be available to get the payload down to orbit useful or the surface of Mars. This would greatly reduce the responsibility of the craft to send the payload to that temporary Mars orbit. Resources sponsored by Phobos, Deimos, and perhaps Mars, could then be placed to give that assistance. Here again electric propulsions might be useful.

But you might also cycle structure made primarily of Paraffin Wax and Cellulose, up to those locations and perhaps have a refinery that could produce the propellants desired.

So, it may be that by having refilling stations, and often the use of electric propulsions, a effective method to move "Stuff" could be promoted.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-03-02 18:44:47)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2025-02-23 11:22:30

Mult staging from Microgravity Deep Space Support Methods

#2 2025-02-23 11:23:35

Re: Mult staging from Microgravity Deep Space Support Methods

#3 2025-02-23 12:03:15

Re: Mult staging from Microgravity Deep Space Support Methods

#4 2025-02-23 16:01:33

Re: Mult staging from Microgravity Deep Space Support Methods

#5 2025-03-02 10:55:43

Re: Mult staging from Microgravity Deep Space Support Methods

#6 2025-03-02 13:04:27

Re: Mult staging from Microgravity Deep Space Support Methods

#7 2025-03-02 18:11:00

Re: Mult staging from Microgravity Deep Space Support Methods

Board footer