New Mars Forums

Please consider this substitution for handling small dwarf planets and maybe icy moons:

It could use improvement in both drawing methods and concepts.  It is not electrostatic but perhaps you could stick Oxygen at the magnetic poles and try to synthesize water.

It is a cut-away of both the dwarf planet and the torus "Shell" that surrounds it.  The rotational poles are shaded, so that most gas that might leak out might condense at the rotational poles, presuming that configuration is possible.  You then could melt a toroid sea to reach down to the core if their is one so that you could mine.

If you wanted to put a differential electrostatic charge on the shell of the toroid, perhaps you would be able to attract molecules to the outer skin of the toroid.  Perhaps a (-) charge in side would attract (+) ions.

The magnetic field may direct ions to impact the outside of the shell at the magnetic poles where you might use electrostatics to catch molecules.

If the toroid leaks, my hope is that the leakage will tend to migrate to the rotational poles and so then condense in the intense cold promoted there by the shade of the torus shell.

This is unlike a classical shell world where, escaped atmosphere would either float off or condense on top of the shell, perhaps collapsing it.

The magnetic field would help to retain a temporary atmosphere caused by a leak, until it could condense at the poles.

This particular notion needs poles that are not too tilted.

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I am interested in exploring further method transitions over time and "In-Flight Metamorphosis".

Method Transition would be more or less that in the first expeditions to Mars; emphasis would be on Cargo with less passengers.  This could be due to needs at Mars, and also limits on launch facilities that will eventually change as presumably more and more launch facilities will emerge.

In my opinion, "In-Flight Metamorphosis" will have its uses earlier in the settlement of Mars, and perhaps less so later.

Mini-Starship paired with a Starship in my view will serve both early and later purposes.  I have read that some Starships will remain on Mars to provide habitation.  So, in that case the Main Propellant Tanks will not be used ever again as propellant tanks.  Only the Header Tanks will be needed for landing the Starship itself.  An in transit of Mars, you will have a crew and then later passengers with little to do between Earth and Mars, except sip recycled urine.  (Well some of the time).  And in-flight artificial gravity would be of use.  The regular Starship will only need some of the engines to land, and in my notions will not ordinarily land people to Mars.

So, prior to launch to Mars the Starship might have it's raptor engines reduced, to be used for other purposes.  But the Starship and Mini-Starship would be linked together for the transit to Mars.  Methods to transfer propellants from one to the other would be a desired capability.

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I have speculated on this in the past:

So, my notion is that pairs of ships would do nicely.  After the pair is on it's way to Mars, in the case where the Starship will stay on Mars, the Main Tanks can be converted in flight to be habitable.  First they would be purged, and then having been designed for it, hatches would be installed for that purpose and the tanks to be pressurized.

Furnishings for the conversion would be in the Cargo Hold of the Starship, or even attached to the outside of the two ships prior to departure from LEO.

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Perhaps on early expeditions with a professional crew only this will not be as big a task, as you would only make a gym in the tail section of the Main Starship.  But later passengers with skills might partially earn their passage by doing blue collar (Mostly) type work to do a full metamorphosis to provide lots of room for the passengers during transit.

So, then this stick comprised of the Mini-Starship and Regular Starship could be spun in a Baton method as per suggestion in prior times by Dr. Johnson.  The intention then to provide some degree of synthetic gravity to the end portions of both ships.  This would perhaps provide for better sanitation methods, and also some degree of physical maintenance for crew and passengers.

Probably in the exploration phase, several robot Starships would have landed on Mars with robots to do early setups and evaluations of method for survival on Mars.

Then at least one "Stick" of a Starboat + Starship could bring exploration crews to Mars.

Later when it might become more of a transport for settlers, multiple "Sticks" could be sent as a convoy, able to lend assistance to each other in transit.

More would be invested in the Mini-Starship as per redundant systems and reliability.  Less in the Starship as normally all the people would land in the Mini-Starship and only in emergency would they land in the Starship itself.

So, from my point of view the materials of this post could be considered.  If someone can do better, then very good, I would like to hear of it.

Anyway with a successful landing of both ships, then the Starship would already be partially ready for human habitation including it's Main Propellant Tank areas.

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I have some strong agreement with the materials in your post here.

I would say that if such batteries could be used in Robo-Taxi, a benefit to society would emerge, I feel.  Particularly for those who have relatively lower resources per intellectual performance and money.  Having more money to devote to education may be a plus for those who simply have not found their potential.  Of course, I am not talking about things related to DEI hate training.

Optimus as well could be a personal trainer both for physical and mind abilities.  I used to pay out to a personal trainer about $165 a week for 3 training sessions.  I don't do it now as I live in two locations and scheduling is troublesome.

But a personal physical trainer would be very beneficial to anyone who might want to follow it's directions for say 3-45 minute sessions per week.  So, this would make a healthier society.  Perhaps for children exercise could be games.  So, unlike now, where your computer mostly requires you to be seated, with Humanoid Robot, your PC can go for a walk with you and answer questions for learning at the same time.

But yes, the biological problem is a real issue.  Here again however to some extent robo-taxi and Optimus would have be very helpful during the Covid-19 event.  The two may offer means of hygiene that have not previously been available.

Much better than subways, or city busses.  Plus, with in home services such as medical exams, the need for passing through crowds would be reduced.

The problem of misuse of biological technology, perhaps to a large extent may involve managing mass human psychology.  I was watching a program about religious cults.  Typically, they do things to interfere with the mating of common "Beta" members.  And often encourage celibacy for the common people, and often have an alpha male, who can in some cases take a bunch of "Spirit Wives" to do less than spiritual things with.

It may be possible to identify the formation of cults as if to identify the beginnings of a tumor in the body.  I am guessing AI might be able to do that.  Patterns of communication and commerce, might make it possible.  Then it might be possible to make some kind of a mild intervention to keep the emerging cult from becoming dangerous.

So, that will help to deal with intent to do evil, and then some method to restrict means might be considered.

But it looks like we do face danger, we can only try to make the situation more "Fire Safe".

I am developing a concept I might name Jealous Sexual Interference.  I feel that it masquerades as morality but is more about "Power Acquisition" over others.  I have relatively liberal ideas about human sexuality, up to the point that a practice may cause social harm.  That is more conservative than it sounds.

To me conservative means don't jump off of a high roof, just because you have the right to.  So, to be conservative you must have a degree of intelligence, and also awareness of reality.

In some cases, emerging technology might allow us expanded permissions on what can be sustained as a practice.  Robo-Taxi, and Humanoid and other robots, may be capable of increasing hygiene for the greater human population.
That is good, because I suspect that the human race was destined to have a civilizational fall due to microbes.  If you create a petri dish of 8 billion people without biological firewalls, all that is needed is time to generate or encourage dangerous microbes.  Once you reach that your civilization could no longer run in the same manner as allowed its building.

So, we do have some treatments for that doom machine, and might escape from the doom, but only by adapting intelligently.

But nothing is promised in the regard.  You can make your best moves and hope it is enough.

The human race as is will not continue forever and may either become something else over time or cease to have anything of it's kind to follow it.

We are temporary, at least as far as the flesh world allows.

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I found a video that suggests that Starboat (Mini-Starship), is being considered by SpaceX.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC
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https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC
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So, this would turn the Starship system into a 3-stage device, similar to how NEUTRON will be a 2-stage device.

Super-Heavy>Starship>Starboat.

I think that this would be quite good for the Moon as well.

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I invite corrections to me from other members if I am wrong.

But I think that the ratio of surface area to mass is more favorable to the Mini-Starship relative to the Starship.

A large size helps an animal to retain heat better in a cold environment.  So, I presume that the larger the size, the less surface area relative to volume.

In this scheme the Mini-Starship rides up in a full Starship, so the added relative surface area does not give a penalty of atmospheric drag on the way to orbit.

But on Aerobraking, I presume that the heating is less per unit of surface area of the Mini-Starship.

So, if using the Mini-Starship, I presume that the heat shield will not be as challenged on atmospheric burn in as would be true for Starship.  This may make the Mini-Starship safer for crew.

An alternative to this for the Moon as I have previously said, would be no heat shield.  The Mini only would be tasked with landing on the Moon and then ascending back to lunar orbit.

A capsule return then might be used to bring the crew back to Earth.  Of course you have to pay to get the Dragon or Orion to Lunar Orbit.  The Capsule would only have to provide life support for the trip Lunar Orbit>Earth, so perhaps the existing Dragon would be good enough, provided the heat shield were adequate.

Several methods could exist to get the Mini-Starship back to a refilling orbit of Earth.  You could use an electric rocket, or send a Starship to fetch it.   Two alternatives for that.
1) Starship brakes into Lunar orbit and puts the Mini-Starship into its cargo hold.  The Starship heads for Earth and does several aerobrakes into the atmosphere to achieve a refilling orbit.
2) If the Mini-Starship could refill its Oxygen on the surface of the Moon, perhaps it would have enough power to head for Earth Orbit.  A Starship could be sent to loop around the Moon to intercept it and take it into it's cargo hold.  Then several aerobraking events to get to a refilling orbit.

Using a capsule return to get the humans back on Earth, then you would have time for one of the two above options as the mission from the capsule maneuver execution would be robotic.

As I have said before, we might get lucky and find out that a healthy adult could stay on the Moon for perhaps 2 years with exercise and medical methods, and not suffer the deterioration that microgravity gives.

So, perhaps you might only have occasional crew rotation events.

Later if we know more about the Moon, and these new spacecraft, more people could be hosted on the Moon.

But the Moon would mostly be a robot sort of active method.

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There seems to be increased chatter about a mini-Starship lately.

I fully understand the SpaceX desire to avoid distractions, as they need to keep focused on various methods to earn money just now, to keep SpaceX solvent.

I think I see a relationship however between the Neutron system and a possible sub-orbital use of a 1 or 2 Stage Starship stack.

I am not really qualified, but I will venture to be a fool anyway on this.

A first observation of what I think is possibly true is that if a 2 stage stack, with a mouth type fairing, were to lift Starship and it's cargo to sub-orbital, then the cargo if it were a mini-ship, it might complete its way to orbit, while, the Starship would land in the vicinity of Indonesia or Australia. 

So, this would be a bit like Neutrons method but with two stages.  Then it might be possible that the Starship could fly sub-orbital from there, without a boost from Superheavy, to go back to Florida for instance.  But if you had full installations around Indonesia and/or Australia, you could use the Superheavy to do a replication of what was done from N. America to Oceana.

And alternative might be 2 stages to Hawaii (With Cargo to orbit), and 1 stage back to Florida (No Cargo to orbit).

But it will be important even if some things like this were done, that refueling in orbit be established by other types of ships.

I have seen ideas of mounting a Starboat onto Superheavy, using appropriate methods to compensate for the different diameters.  In this case, the Superheavy does not need heavy heat shielding, and perhaps the Starboat would not have heat shielding either. 

A Starboat for the Moon, might not need heat shielding.  Perhaps humans returning from the Moon would use Orion or Dragon technology to be delivered Moon>Earth.

In that case you either abandon the Starboat or perhaps have an efficient means to deliver it from Moon orbit to Earth orbit without people on board.  Perhaps electric rocket.

So, the Starboat would need to be able to land on the Moon and then launch into Lunar orbit and connect to a capsule method already placed in orbit of the Moon.

This does not stop SpaceX from landing 5 Cargo ships onto the Moon to make a base with.

If they could learn how to manufacture Oxygen on the Moon to refill a Starboat, that would be helpful to extend capability.  And if they could get water, from the Moon and bring just Carbon, then that might extend reach more.

I think that even with a 5 ship Starbase Alpha, they will only need a few humans.  And they might find out that a human can stay on the Moon for 2 years, with proper exercise and medical attention.  In that case you would not need to use a Starship to transport humans back from the Moon.

So, there seems to be a lot of unknown potential in future possibility for the Moon.

I will note again that some people seem to think that there are platinum family metals in many of the craters on the Moon.

So, this might draw some strong forces to justify such a presence on the Moon.

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IF this is real then quite a good thing it seem:  https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE  Quote:

Lots of big claims.  We will have to see.

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I am seeing some articles that suggest that there is interest in using Starship to build "Moon Base Alpha".  The articles suggest not only accessing water from the poles, but extracting Oxygen from the regolith.  The suggestion of 5 Starships converted to habitation by being put horizontal.  And the notion that each Starship might deliver 200 tons of cargo to the Moons surface.

Further they seem to believe that most labor would be done by robots as humans in balloon suits cannot do much work, and not very well.

Even hints of Oxygen from the Moon for trips to Mars.  Perhaps I have that wrong, but I thought I got that drift.

With the possibility that there may be Platinum family metals in many craters on the Moon, I think this would be wise.

I have read that SpaceX is now doing Atmospheric Separations at Starbase.  That is extracting Nitrogen, Oxygen, and Argon from the atmosphere.  I wonder if they will be able to either sell some of the Argon, or get involved in Argon Electric rockets in space.

While Argon Electric Rockets could bring materials to Lunar Orbit, they also could perhaps bring Starships back from Lunar Orbit efficiently.  The Moon is not going to need a huge population anytime soon, so most travel about the Moon would likely be robotic with a few transfers of humans.

It looks promising to me.

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Here is a related video: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VRDGAR
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I differ from kdb512 in that I think that "Green" energy will be a "Fake it until you make it" situation.  I think it will eventually pay off big time, but it needs a childhood stage before it gets to a more useful adulthood.

I am very interested in: https://www.alberta.ca/premier
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Primarily as she wants to increase the amount of Oil Alberta exports but says they also want to achieve "Net-Zero" by 2050.

I am fairly ambiguous about what Canada decides to do with itself or within itself, but a more dynamic Canada or Alberta, or whatever, would probably be useful to Americans like myself.

As far as I am concerned Europeans seem now to want to return to a Feudal order of society, and I absolutely despise that.

But if Canada, Alberta, or West Canada, or all of Canada, will take a new path and accomplish all of these things that would be a very useful example of how to move forward.

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An interesting variation on this thinking could involve a "Rung World" ring.

Here is an illustration of it: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … ung_world/
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Even for 10 Hygea, this would be very ambitious.  But some day we might have enormous Rung Worlds around Jupiter, built of materials from Callisto, and maybe even all the moons, even IO.

In my version, however we would be having enormous solar heat engines which would include very large habitable radiators.  The Mirror Platforms being able to swivel could point to the sun.  I have a tendency to think of a habitable radiator where the entirety would be filled with water, but it may be possible that water could be made to cling to the surface of the radiator.  Probably a better solution is to have an inner chamber filled with air.  But I leave it somewhat open.  The great concern that freezes damage would be possible requires adaptations to deal with it then.  If you have a malfunction where you fear freezing the water in the envelope and damaging the envelope then perhaps you have to pump the water into the inner shell if you have one, until you can warm it up again.

Where previously I have suggested that the Heat Engine would be in front of a large concentrating mirror, the use of a secondary mirror might allow it to be flush with the mirror or even behind it.  Where before I suggested a cylinder as the shape of the radiator we might also consider the shape of a red blood cell.   Something I often consider.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_blood_cell
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The shape is supposed to be rather good at exchanging O2 and CO2, so I presume it may be good at radiating heat.

So, an aquatic world in orbit might shelter air filled habitats.  In the case where you wanted 1 g of so of synthetic gravity then I expect that a vacuum chamber needs to be provided or the synthetic gravity machine might be attached to the outside of the water world.

For 10 Hygea, I suspect that space elevators could connect to part of the rung world.

In the case of Jupiter, the rung worlds would be enormously large and there would likely be many of them.  Probably in the regions of lesser radiation belts, but with protection from the sun's emissions.

To lift mass from the moons, in part the magnetic field of Jupiter could be employed.

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For a 100% efficient mirror for Ceres you need 7 times as much mirror area as for the Earth.
For a 100% efficient mirror for the orbits of Jupiter you would need 25 times as much mirror area as for the Earth.
Troublesome but within reach, I think.

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From post #28:

Basically, a canister within a canister within a canister.  Between the two outer canisters is a water jacket.  Then the next layer is vacuum, then the inner cylinder may be filled with air.

The water jacket can be locked down to the mirror assembly and not rotate at all but be a habitable radiator with microgravity water, and be a radiation and impactor protection for the innermost air-filled cylinder.

Since the water jacket does not rotate relative to the mirror, electrical cabling to and from the mirror platforms could be accommodated.

The water jacket could support microbial and some other types of life.  Chemical stimulation of life would be the more natural notion, but you could put some lighting into the "Farm" of the "Habitable Radiator".

For humans to work inside of a microgravity water jacket, some sort of an environment suit would be desired, for sure.

Also there have to be water circulation pumps to keep temperatures of the water equilibrated.

Perhaps mastering air bubbles in microgravity could become an art.  Some aquatic insects may have something to teach.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_insect

Also a centrifuge enclosure might work.  If you spun a cylinder or sphere with an open hatch in the microgravity water, and filled it with air, I think the air would tend to displace the water within.  The spin rate could be relatively slow, not so much to create synthetic gravity but to keep the water and air separate.

Another notion in microgravity water would be to make a slurry of water and air bubbles.  Of course this would have to be actively maintained, but perhaps some special kind of head gear would allow a personal helmet to pull air out of the mix using centrifugal force so that you could breath the water.

Another similar would be to put a very much larger amount of Oxygen into the water than is normal on Earth.  If you put less Nitrogen in then you could dissolve more Oxygen in the solution.

From post #26:

So, a very large waffle like platform of mirrors, with multiple focus, and each focus could accommodate some type of heat engine perhaps with a habitable radiator.

But alternately they could simply accommodate a greenhouse, spinning or not spinning.

The energy from the platform could be used to send power beams such as Lasers or Microwaves to project spacecraft, solar moth and solar sail being among methods possible.

Since Ceres, 10 Hygea, and Callisto are believed to be rich in water, then you could even use laser heated steam propulsion to get a payload started, a sort of booster.

Of course you could cook up rocket propellants as well, but those always have explosive properties.

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This guy feels doom also: https://www.bitchute.com/video/xZ9QQPnLlUkz/
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I sure hope the remaining strong economies hold out.

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