Para Terra formation of ice worlds with Nuclear and Water

Void · 2025-07-10 08:10:30

Ice worlds begin at Mars, as far as I am concerned. Or I can just say that can be asserted.

Mars has a fairly large gravity and an atmosphere that complicates things. So, the next ice worlds I am familiar with are Ceres, and 10 Hygea. Those in the main asteroid belt, have other companions that are similar. And then I am inclined to think that Callisto may resemble Ceres to a certain extent, but it is a moon.

The truth about these objects is that they lack any substantial atmosphere. Titan and worlds further out than it may have substantial atmospheres, but may be short of accessible rocky materials. This does not seem to be true for Ceres and Callisto, so they might be treated in similar manners.

https://isaacarthur.net/video/solar-mot … lar-sails/
Quote:

Solar Moths and Solar Sails
Jun 2, 2023

So, at these worlds, it might be profitable to use a Solar Moth techniques to send lighter materials like water, Carbon, and Ammonia inward in the solar system. But then also to use Solar Sails to send heavier materials such as Silicates and Metals, outward to worlds like Titan.

Probably much of what might be sent inward might go to small asteroids being mined, and perhaps to our Moon.

The use of lasers to help power both solar moths and solar sails might make sense. I might expand the concept of a solar moth to also allow for more propulsive methods than just thermal expansion of a gas, I might include electric propulsion methods as well. Also, a solar moth might also be given a chemical rocket boost as well at the start of it's path from an icy world.

While I am looking forward to the option of using nuclear fusion, I think it is reasonable to consider concentrating mirrors for solar power, for devices in proximity to an ice world but in orbit, to power the lasers. And these lasers might double to send power to the ice world that they are proximate to.

Pause.............

I have a tendency to imagine very large mirrors for collection of solar energy, and water dominated habitats for humans to occupy, and then of course places for robots.

These worlds may have significant Ammonia, Carbon, and water which are desired.

Ending Pending

Based on a post elsewhere by (th), I will respond: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 44#p232744

Yes, ice caves carved, melted, or evaporated, could offer protections. And I think that Callibans suggestions were in relation to icy worlds like Titan, or Pluto. For instance, Pluto's moon Charon could have vast networks of ice caverns in it going very deep. Such chambers might be large enough to allow for spinning habitats deep under the moons surface. And the fossil cold of billions of years, could be regarded as a resource, helping to "Sink" waste heat for some time.

Other forms of exploiting this cold would be to melt seas under the surface of such a world with waste heat you wanted to dispose of.

Evaporative cooling might be explored after some time when the fossil cold is starting to be used up. For instance you could simply vent water which had heat pushed into it, vent the water to space. If you had a artificial magnetic field around the ice world where you did this, chances may be that much of it would fall back in the gravity field to the surface of such a world.

So, although at first waste heat would use fossil cold, and then melting to avoid excessive heat build-up, then eventually evaporation might be used.

That then is the "Inni Method", but also possible is an "Outi Method": https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/5e9f5429cee4a Quote:
Quote:

Space mirrors are space-based structures designed for redirecting sunlight. Such mirrors have a wide range of applications, including but not limited to solar amplification, terraforming, and supplemental lighting. Only small fractions of sunlight ever reach sources that benefit from it; space mirrors are utilized to redirect extra sunlight towards environments that may otherwise not receive as much sunlight as desired.
Sunlight is most efficiently absorbed when it hits perpendicular to the absorbing surface, efficiency which drops as the impact angle increases, due to several factors. On spherical bodies this is easily observed when the equator is much warmer than the poles, however any surface will suffer from this phenomenon. The venerable Stanford Torus design uses a tilted mirror to direct sunlight to the inner surface, and Bishop Rings are generally oriented edge-on to the star, with some designs incorporating a system of mirrors to collect sunlight. Solar power arrays will see decreases in efficiency when not pointed directly at the sun. Space mirrors are advantageous for these scenarios because they are able to reflect light directly perpendicular to a surface from many ranges and directions.

Isaac Arthur has expressed the opinion that such methods might even be used in the Kuiper Belt. I tend to be a little more conservative and suggest, that it could be done out to the orbit of Saturn.

At Ceres the normal sunlight is still fairly strong, and at Callisto, it does get lower yet. For Ceres the intensity is about 1/7th that of Earth.

It can be kept in mind that the mirror itself can be paper thin, but perhaps there would be rib structures that vehicles could travel on.

Included with the mirrors, may be "Habitable Radiators". That is chambers where steam might be condensed, where also life could live. And in associated with that then habitations for humans and robots.

So, as you might dig ice caves you might also take the water mined out to such a external mirror system orbiting near the ice world being mined.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-07-10 09:25:57)

Void · 2025-07-11 07:31:56

Continuing with the previous post, I want to make sure that I don't plagiarize ideas that I appropriate/borrow from their originators. From the Finns I got the idea of a Magnetic Bearing, (Cradle) that a rotor can rest in, in microgravity.
https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres
Image Quote:

I believe that their focus is on accommodating the habitats. I am thinking more though about acquiring solar power. So, for the moment I will suggest a plane of concave mirrors facing the sun when possible. Each concave mirror assembly could host a sort of tripod, that could host a spinning object in a magnetic nest.

While the spinning object might be in a form resembling an O'Neill Cylinder; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Neill_cylinder
Image Quote:
More often I want to consider a "Habitable Radiator".

A "Habitable Radiator" notion would not so much focus on windows to bring light in, but to foster life inside of a heat engine.

This diagram is crude because I only have so much skill in working with paint, and also, I only want to convey concepts:

So, it may be possible to maintain the condenser in conditions that would foster life. This will be in conflict with running a turbine, so internal heat exchangers (Not shown) will be needed to use the water from the blue portion as coolant but not to run such water though the heat engine. Such water would have dissolved gasses that would be corrosive for instance of the boiler and turbine. But the blue portion of the cylinder with fins, would radiate heat to space, and produce cooling water that cannot be directly used in the heat engine. So, then however the heat engine itself might run on CO2 which I have seen written might be better than water.

The blue cooling water could be kept temperate enough to allow life in it. Chemically driven life for instance. The chemicals would be cooked up using some of the electric power produced.

Oxygen and then some type of fuel. Acetate is a recent discovery, Methane might be OK, and Hydrogen might work, but will require special care.

I have not shown the cradle structure in the drawing, but it would link the mirror physically to the Habitable Heat Engine, using struts and a magnetic field.

It could be possible that the environment in the blue area might be tolerated by humans, especially if they have Personal Protective Equipment that is appropriate.

Spin options for the Habitable Heat Engine are various. As I see it you want the cooling water to congregate somewhere so spin can make that happen. And to some degree the water layer that will cling centrifugally to the inner walls of the cylinder will offer radiation protection.

It may be possible to incorporate a human habitat into this sort of machine, but maybe robots would do most of the maintenance.

There are complex ways to alter this basic plan, you could have a cone and not a cylinder.

By presenting the cone point to the sun, the water can be used for radiation protection. Just a notion.

These things more or less would be microbe farms. And you could also then grow mushrooms on that organic material of the microbes grown.

However, it might be possible to grow aquatic plants of various kinds, presuming you could adapt them to mostly run on chemicals such as Oxygen and Acetate. But in that case I recommend a little amount of artificial light. That might give seasonal signals to the plants, and also would be a bit more useful if people or robots were working inside of these things.

I have already said that perhaps a Habitable Heat Engine might be linked directly to a human habitat. That might be more complicated than desired. Perhaps the Magnetic cradles of the mirrors could host either a Habitable Heat Engine, or a human habitat. An "Or" rather than an "And".

I see this method as perhaps being most useful where you can get "Dirty Ices", such as Ceres, 10 Hygea, and Callisto for instance.

One of the objectives is to produce electricity to run lasers that may help support transport of materials using Solar Moth, and also Solar Sail methods among others.

https://isaacarthur.net/video/solar-mot … lar-sails/

Sending organic materials inward in the solar system, and sending Metals and Silicates outward in the solar system.

* If the water were to freeze in the water wet section that might damage things, so perhaps this needs more work.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-07-12 11:13:14)

Void · 2025-07-11 10:08:20

Some things that might be appended to the previous post:

These are ideas that could make some sense for worlds where abundant water can be obtained. That is more towards the outer solar system, and ideally smaller worlds with less of a gravity well. Ceres, 10 Hygea, Callisto. Perhaps sufficient sunlight to make concentrating mirrors worth the investment.

I do not specify rate of spin, but if the human occupied space in the center has 1 g, then the water will have a bit more.

Here is another idea:

The grey area might be an air fill, the blue, a water fill.

The two, the grey and blue might rotate in opposite directions. A partial vacuum is to exist between the grey and blue.

Here is an "Open Water" scheme:

Just some food for thought.

For Ceres and 10 Hygea, we might entertain space elevators, possibly linked to sets of these sorts of "Habitable Heat Engine Concepts".

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-07-11 10:31:25)

Void · 2025-07-11 21:36:25

I will mention that in regard to recent previous posts, I have notions of non-rotating water tanks as limited habitable radiators. Troublesome for humans but perhaps useful for farming. Those would be easier to transfer generated electricity from.

I am wondering if a very long platform of such mirror and Heat Engine sections could be anchored in a Sun-Ceres L1 position.

But it is getting late, perhaps tomorrow.

Ending Pending

Void · 2025-07-12 10:55:50

From post #28:

Here is another idea:

Basically, a canister within a canister within a canister. Between the two outer canisters is a water jacket. Then the next layer is vacuum, then the inner cylinder may be filled with air.

The water jacket can be locked down to the mirror assembly and not rotate at all but be a habitable radiator with microgravity water, and be a radiation and impactor protection for the innermost air-filled cylinder.

Since the water jacket does not rotate relative to the mirror, electrical cabling to and from the mirror platforms could be accommodated.

The water jacket could support microbial and some other types of life. Chemical stimulation of life would be the more natural notion, but you could put some lighting into the "Farm" of the "Habitable Radiator".

For humans to work inside of a microgravity water jacket, some sort of an environment suit would be desired, for sure.

Also there have to be water circulation pumps to keep temperatures of the water equilibrated.

Perhaps mastering air bubbles in microgravity could become an art. Some aquatic insects may have something to teach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_insect

Also a centrifuge enclosure might work. If you spun a cylinder or sphere with an open hatch in the microgravity water, and filled it with air, I think the air would tend to displace the water within. The spin rate could be relatively slow, not so much to create synthetic gravity but to keep the water and air separate.

Another notion in microgravity water would be to make a slurry of water and air bubbles. Of course this would have to be actively maintained, but perhaps some special kind of head gear would allow a personal helmet to pull air out of the mix using centrifugal force so that you could breath the water.

Another similar would be to put a very much larger amount of Oxygen into the water than is normal on Earth. If you put less Nitrogen in then you could dissolve more Oxygen in the solution.

From post #26:

That then is the "Inni Method", but also possible is an "Outi Method": https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/5e9f5429cee4a Quote:
Quote:
Space mirrors are space-based structures designed for redirecting sunlight. Such mirrors have a wide range of applications, including but not limited to solar amplification, terraforming, and supplemental lighting. Only small fractions of sunlight ever reach sources that benefit from it; space mirrors are utilized to redirect extra sunlight towards environments that may otherwise not receive as much sunlight as desired.

So, a very large waffle like platform of mirrors, with multiple focus, and each focus could accommodate some type of heat engine perhaps with a habitable radiator.

But alternately they could simply accommodate a greenhouse, spinning or not spinning.

The energy from the platform could be used to send power beams such as Lasers or Microwaves to project spacecraft, solar moth and solar sail being among methods possible.

Since Ceres, 10 Hygea, and Callisto are believed to be rich in water, then you could even use laser heated steam propulsion to get a payload started, a sort of booster.

Of course you could cook up rocket propellants as well, but those always have explosive properties.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-07-12 11:20:51)

Void · 2025-07-12 20:50:01

An interesting variation on this thinking could involve a "Rung World" ring.

Here is an illustration of it: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsaacArthur/co … ung_world/
Image Quote: rung-world-v0-1B7ojAPqxPdqgYorNfsbrMCktstgoEHGOdBN86ElQjI.jpg?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=3bf96fd3226d6391a2232dced2bc0bdbb193d639

Even for 10 Hygea, this would be very ambitious. But some day we might have enormous Rung Worlds around Jupiter, built of materials from Callisto, and maybe even all the moons, even IO.

In my version, however we would be having enormous solar heat engines which would include very large habitable radiators. The Mirror Platforms being able to swivel could point to the sun. I have a tendency to think of a habitable radiator where the entirety would be filled with water, but it may be possible that water could be made to cling to the surface of the radiator. Probably a better solution is to have an inner chamber filled with air. But I leave it somewhat open. The great concern that freezes damage would be possible requires adaptations to deal with it then. If you have a malfunction where you fear freezing the water in the envelope and damaging the envelope then perhaps you have to pump the water into the inner shell if you have one, until you can warm it up again.

Where previously I have suggested that the Heat Engine would be in front of a large concentrating mirror, the use of a secondary mirror might allow it to be flush with the mirror or even behind it. Where before I suggested a cylinder as the shape of the radiator we might also consider the shape of a red blood cell. Something I often consider.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_blood_cell
Image Quote:

The shape is supposed to be rather good at exchanging O2 and CO2, so I presume it may be good at radiating heat.

So, an aquatic world in orbit might shelter air filled habitats. In the case where you wanted 1 g of so of synthetic gravity then I expect that a vacuum chamber needs to be provided or the synthetic gravity machine might be attached to the outside of the water world.

For 10 Hygea, I suspect that space elevators could connect to part of the rung world.

In the case of Jupiter, the rung worlds would be enormously large and there would likely be many of them. Probably in the regions of lesser radiation belts, but with protection from the sun's emissions.

To lift mass from the moons, in part the magnetic field of Jupiter could be employed.

Ending Pending

For a 100% efficient mirror for Ceres you need 7 times as much mirror area as for the Earth.
For a 100% efficient mirror for the orbits of Jupiter you would need 25 times as much mirror area as for the Earth.
Troublesome but within reach, I think.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-07-12 21:14:18)

Void · 2025-07-13 08:25:35

I would like to point out that in the orbit of Jupiter, many power sources may be available.

Mirrors need to be very big to tap into solar energy, that is true, but the sun does much higher level fusion, and we expect it to last billions of years.

The spin of Jupiter is a power supply that works with Io, Europa, and Ganymede to heat these moons. I don't say it would be easy or something to do at this time, but at some time it might be possible to turn Io into a massive power generator.

The spin of Jupiter with it's magnetic field may offer a means of propulsion to move mass though much of the hill sphere of Jupiter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodynamic_tether

And then if the moons of Jupiter were to be mined, the potential for fission and easier types of fusion may become available.

So, rather a rich asset to want to have, if possible.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-07-13 08:32:09)

Void · Today 14:48:45

Calliban as usual has useful things to offer: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 33#p232833
At this moment the conversation is down to #18 post there.

I would post there, but I have nothing to add, except that I like his materials.

But a curios question I have in my mind is if you could build giant fusion reactors in microgravity, could you feed the fuel from comets, or could you go to the edge of the solar wind and grab molecules out of the "Vacuum" to feed it?

The Helio sheath, I think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere
Image Quote: PIA22835-VoyagerProgram%26Heliosphere-Chart-20181210.png

The solar wind colliding with the galactic winds though, I think is very hot. Is there a way to collect it?
From the above Wiki, quote:

< 0.3 per cubic centimeter
The Heliosheath is the region between the termination shock and the heliopause where the solar wind slows and compresses as it interacts with the interstellar medium3. The plasma density in the heliosheath is < 0.3 per cubic centimeter, and its temperature is approximately 7000 K2. The heliosheath is shaped like the coma of a comet and trails several times that distance in the direction opposite to the Sun's

Last edited by Void (Today 15:03:35)

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Re: Para Terra formation of ice worlds with Nuclear and Water

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