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#3601 Re: Human missions » I have some questions » 2003-11-27 07:33:36
as things stand, *anything* from Mars is valuable, scientifically, so maybe it would be more interesting if you could program your robots to gather different rocks, and/or SUBSURFACE samples/rocks, i.e. a variety. Robot should be able to take some pics in order to show exactly *where* the rocks were gathered...
what you could do for a *simple* mechanical sorting of rocks: scoop some up, deposit them on a set of vibrating sieves with holes of a known measure, so you can discard the small and bigger samples. Each sample would be roughly same dimensions. After that, by comparing their weight you can decide to keep em or toss em (metal-rich being more heavy, some volanic stuff (pumice) being very light... so you could scoop up a big amount of differentiated stuff but end up with a pre-sorted variety of little rocks to send back...(weight issue for return-launch being an important limiting factor)
#3602 Re: Unmanned probes » Travellers guide to Mars - About one of the pioneering Scientists » 2003-11-27 04:57:04
Liked the article, too... That's why i posted it, of course.
Guess what? The 'clickworkers' project mentionded in the article is still running, i submitted a new thread in 'Science and Technology', for everyone that might be interested. I recommend it.
#3603 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Clickworkers - Do some science when you're bored! » 2003-11-27 03:55:01
Not sure if this is the right place to submit it, but this NASA/Ames researsch page, Clickworkers is a nice way to do some distributed geologic gruntwork behind your desk... You get a picture of a part of Mars, and mark the craters, by clicking on their rims... (Hence the name 'clickworkers') This way it should be possible to calculate the geological age of that particular spot... There are different projects to choose from, some are already finished, so read the introduction carefully before you start clicking.
tr it, it's fun AND a great way to contribute to Mars science!
(Edited) i did some clicking, and it's breathtaking... you get the most amazing photographs... Filesizes differ wildly, expect between 50k to 4-5Mb(!) I had the impression tha the 'preferences' to select only smaller sized pics didn't work very well... So, make sure you have enough memory and maybe 'broadband' connection, or you're in for a long wait...
#3604 Re: Planetary transportation » Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need » 2003-11-27 02:15:05
See your point... All depends on what we consider 'early stages' Two settlements with 10-20 persons each or 20-100 makes a big difference in what would be the most efficient way of transport... The 'market' for transporting stuff would be seriously bigger in the seccond case. In the first case, irregular transports by simple rovers (internal combustion, fuel cells etc) would be sufficient, but later on,...
Downside of nuclear engines: if it breaks (leakage etc) , you're very probably confronted with a total loss, but you'd surely have a back up in place by then. 'classic' power has the downside of a more 'distributed' infrastructure (spread-out ISRM plants, refilling stations...), needing people going outside on a regular basis to check and repair things.
Either way, it won't be easy...
#3605 Re: Human missions » I have some questions » 2003-11-27 00:26:44
Depends what you mean with 'valuable?'
-in money terms- for future Martian settlers or for 'Earthdwellers'
-for Martian settlers it would be ores containing materials they can easily refine to build stuff with (Mg, Fe etc...)
For earth economy you could say 'valuable' stuff like gold, platinium, uranium etc BUT it wouldn't be economically interesting to mine it and transport back to Earth, due to the very high transport costs... (with today technology) If you mined gold and sent it back to earth, you'd lose money with current launch systems.
To give you an idea: if you'd fill up the shutlle with confetti, launched it to low earth orbit, and the paylod 'magically' turned to gold, after landing, you'd be not a penny richer, it wouldn't cover the launch and processing costs of the operation... And that's only Low Earth obit...
-in science terms: of course rocks with fossils, or even better living organisms in them would be *the single most* valuable objects found...
Then there's 'pristine' rocks from impact craters, giving an idea of the coposition of asteroids etc
or 'old' rocks, remnants from when Mars was young, giving data about the formation of Mars and the solar system...
Or certain minerals, like andesites, that'd give you an idea about the compoition of the atmosphere of Mars in the past...
Hey, keep us posted when you do somethng interesting, robot- wise. Robotical operations are an important aspect of Martian exploration/settlement plans, maybe, one day, one of your ideas gets implemented on the Red Planet!
#3606 Re: Planetary transportation » Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need » 2003-11-26 14:39:06
still not convinced that nuclear is a 'simpler' option...
You'd need refining plants, extensive searches for uranium mining sites, etc (i guess you don't want the rods ferried from Earth)
while a gas operated land-train could haul an atmospheric compressor (+solar power cells) with it. (to produce H2, O2; Methane...) Or even better, several, and install them en-route to give you a series of 'gas-pumps' like you have on earth on the highways. that way, you gradually build a net of fuel-stations, enlarging your action radius, everytime you use the train. The tech is quite straightforward, while compact nuclear generators are not(today) Of course, we don't know where our capabilities will lead us in the future, but they've been predicting compact generators for decades, and the smallest in use are stil *BIG* RTG's will be too weak, fission too bulky.... Fusion maybe?
#3607 Re: Terraformation » Minimum Terraformation - When can we ditch the pressure suits? » 2003-11-26 09:32:35
There's just a lot of calculating going on in the 'rapid terraforming' thread about these questions.
Interesting read. Esp. RobertDyck's comments on page 5, Nov. 25 2003, 14:37; where he discusses the minimal pressures needed in order to keep our lungs functioning.
#3608 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » $300M to destroy hubble » 2003-11-26 09:14:01
This may sound dumb, but how much would it cost to make a mount or umbilical of some kind to mount it to the ISS?
Or buy it from NASA? Then, launch a cheap ion engine-powered sat (9.5 mil$ for a 60kg/132lbs sat in LEO for a SpaceDev launch today... Wonder what SpaceX will ask in the near future)
...dock (possible?) and send it in a 'storage orbit'... to retrieve it later, when we DO have the hardware to do that relatively cheap.
Hubble being an icon of modern day astronomy, it's a real shame o see it go down...
#3609 Re: Human missions » Proton Mars - The 2 Billion Dollar Manned Mars Mission » 2003-11-26 07:30:04
The artificial g has to be 'on' when people are up and moving around in order to load the bones and muscles.
That's probably right. Recall the ESA experiment, they basically had people laying on a bed 24/7 for weeks (in Earth gravity...), in order to re-create zero-g effects on the human body.
#3610 Re: Unmanned probes » Travellers guide to Mars - About one of the pioneering Scientists » 2003-11-26 04:57:47
A blast from the past...
#3611 Re: Terraformation » Rapid Terraforming... - ...the most ambitious ideas? » 2003-11-26 04:23:59
a bit off-topic...
But the runaway- effect sometimes bothers me.
Imagine, equilibrum point is reached, massive outgassing occurs, ....
Now that would cause localized pressure increases uncomparable to anything seen on earth...
How severe would the storms be? Quite severe, i'd imagine. Initially, not such a problem: low initial atm. pressure: not much energy-transport, (although, today there's the effect of very steep temp gradients, soil temp c/q atmospheric temp... atm. temp drops very fast the initial few meters, unlike on earth, so outgassing would cause 'low elevation' eddies/dustdevils on a bigger scale, pumping increasingly more dust into the atm.(?)
As pressure rises, Mars hurricanes, loaded with increasingly heavier dust-particles, etc could be something to fear... I guess on any given location, they'd start every Mars day, around sunrize (cold-hot-terminator, or whatever the right term is...), circling the planet, (following that 'cold-hot' zone...) till a new equilibrum has been reached.
Or am i a doomsday prophet?
#3612 Re: Planetary transportation » Trains on Mars - Could a rail system provide martian need » 2003-11-26 03:53:49
Why nuclear? Never seen nuclear powered trains on earth...I live in Belgium, one of the countries with a VERY closely knit rail-net, and i see a lot of trains, every day (travel daily by train...)
The big freight trains, that transport absolutely mindblowing loads of steel rolls etc run on diesel... (instead of electricity, most modern passenger trains run electric, yesterday took the hi-speed to Paris (Eurostar, Thalys...), >200km/h, great way to travel, BTW)
I do know diesel is not an option, of course, but internal combustion has its merits: fairly easily loading and manipulating of fuel etc, and quite capable. The really heavy transports just use 2 or more locomotives, usually 2 up front
Downside for train transport: i've seen the amount of construction needed to lay tracks, etc and it's still very human-labour intensive.... (though i think its mostly the electric part that's the most work...)
That land-train looks good though, esp in pre-infrastructure situations. Nuclear engines would make it very expensive, with current tech, while a big dumb internal combustion beast would be fairly straightforward to build and operate...
#3613 Re: Planetary transportation » Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires? » 2003-11-26 03:32:02
Hmmm attemt to ASCII graphics....
Doesn't work out... My 'masterpiece' ends up like this...
//
XX___/
#3614 Re: Planetary transportation » Land propulsion - Tracks, or tires? » 2003-11-26 03:13:41
Both have their problems... Tires run flat, tracks break.
What about a 'combination' Dunno how to explain this very good...
Imagine an old horsecart wheel. Replace the spokes with either springs or pneumatic bars. On the end you put rectangular 'thread segments' on a flexible mount.
Looks like a wheel (circle) AND Threads, but circular.
Advantage in contrast to classic threads: you can break some parts, and still be able to drive. If one breaks it's no big deal, given enough 'spokes'
(must've read this somewhere, can't be i came up with this myself, hardely awake....)
(Edit, and i think this is 'my' idea: must be possible to control individual pneumatic rods, would give you very adaptive 'Threels' (in want for a better word)
Some kind of active suspension, but for segments of the wheel, instead of the whole wheel...So you could make it go 'flat' for better grip , angle the individual plates for better bite into dusty slopes... let it react to individual small boulders for extra-smooth drive...)
#3615 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » A Flag to Unite Terrans for Mars - Golden Ratio and Human Color Vision » 2003-11-25 15:30:46
Human face or body outline... Nice. But then again a thorny question: What colors??? You couldn't take colors referring to a certain skin type...
#3616 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » The Official Martian Salute - Ordained by Emperor Scott » 2003-11-24 15:03:28
This zigzag motion of the hand represents the apparent motion of Mars as seen from Earth during the opposition of Earth and Mars.
Hmmm... 'Z'
Now who in Mars' name could that refer to? 
#3617 Re: Not So Free Chat » Good books you've just read » 2003-11-24 13:56:45
It was either Gibson or Stephenson that co-authored a book, cyberpunk in the 18th century.
Basicly its a "What if computers were invented and as widespreadly used as today in the Victorian Era"
You may find it interesting, but I could not stomach to finish the book myself.
Read that... 'Stoomvlinder' in Dutch, (printed by Meulenhoff SF) so must be something like steam butterfly(?)
Was written by Gibson and Stephenson, IIRC...
(Edited: actually, it's 'The Difference Engine' in English, and it's by Gibson and Bruce Sterling)
Lord Byron, Lady Ada, etc... Charles Babbage's 'difference engine' that got really built and used by the authorities... (for the non- computer freaks: it was the first 'modern' computer, with central processing, memory etc... working totally mechanical. Some years ago English engineers built a part of it for real, and it works, but then (Victorian age) it was considered too expensive to build...)
Nice idea for a parallel history, but i agree, not the best book i ever read...
#3618 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Own the moon? - Property rights on celestial bodies » 2003-11-24 10:54:45
I Don't know... I think it would be 'more cool' to look up and see a pristine moon, while knowing humans live there. Not some kind of a Industrial-strength Christmastree... Would take away a lot of the magic...
It would tell us we're a race capable of preserving natural beauty, while expanding our 'territory'
#3619 Re: Terraformation » Rapid Terraforming... - ...the most ambitious ideas? » 2003-11-24 09:13:23
Byron... What about putting a 200km Big One into Mars high-orbit, and cut it to pieces *there?* Wouldn't that be more energy-efficient? You'd only need two or three drivers to get it into orbit, and once it's there, close to 'home,' it'd be more easy to dismantle, and... do some manned explorations on it, to boot...
(you'd lose some stuff due to evaporation, but that'd be cool, imagine the great spectacle that such a close-by comet would bring you, days on end, again and again...)
#3620 Re: Human missions » Proton Mars - The 2 Billion Dollar Manned Mars Mission » 2003-11-24 08:43:02
.... America can't do that experiment, today... They don't have the capability anymore to launch 2 small (manned!) capsules in orbit to 'play around' with 
Russians might try this, they have the technical capabilities, but can't afford that kind of thing right now...if someone would give them the money... They'd be up and spinning in no-time, that's for sure. Hopefully their next paying customer is an ex-trapeze worker, with enough small change left to persuade them to try something like this...
:laugh:
#3621 Re: Human missions » No plans for Mars mission in near future - sketchy details » 2003-11-24 06:56:41
At the very least, it's a more detailed and comprehensive space policy (and social policy) than anyone else has right now!
Or, rather: sad but true...
Have to agree, I'm happy to see the social aspect got the limelight, none of that "it's throwing away money, we'd better solve hunger..." Education is the *only* long term solution to India's problems, and a thriving space-industry would be a major boost to their economy, schooling, agrigulture (remote sensing, anyone?)
Good to see a politician backing a long-term plan... It's a rare sight.
#3622 Re: Terraformation » Rapid Terraforming... - ...the most ambitious ideas? » 2003-11-24 05:29:35
.... I was apologizing for the misuse of bandwidth by me...
I keep repeating it, but... My English LOOKS better than it actually IS. A lot of non-natives read a lot of English, and learn a lot of 'big' words that way, we end up (well, i do...) 'scaffolding' our ramblings around these 'big' words, gives the impression we're really fluent, but that's not always the case...
Ok; on-topic again... Northern hemisphere- ocean... Yes, that's bound to be a problem, (seen the simulations, the fancy graphics, that is...) Wouldn't KSR (red-green-blue Mars) moholes be a solution? They'd be *fairly* easily dug, by robots, and if you dig them on the lowest spots, they'd initially 'only' warm the atmosphere, and then later, when they are flooded, they could keep the water temperate(sp?) Of course, that'd take quite an amount of moholes... Water being hard to warm up... (high caloric value blahblahblah...)
...Might be talking nonsense anyway, the moholes would probably collapse when flooded, and they're just science-fiction ? (or not, has there been research done on them? How much energy could they release... There's been talk recently about a liquid magma layer after all (Mars) so it COULD be an interesting avenue of thought...
*off to Google 'mohole'
EDITED: hmmmm... doesn't look like there's been done much research into mohole tech...
#3623 Re: Terraformation » Rapid Terraforming... - ...the most ambitious ideas? » 2003-11-24 03:42:59
Thanks, Shaun!
Actually, I've read a lot into the subject, (since i was a teen...) but was not sure wether you people were thinking about using CFC or not... Sometimes i'm too lazy to look up the acronyms *again* (They differ between languages, CFC=CFK in Dutch etc... So if was not certain PCF was also CFC...) so i was kinda confused. Sorry 'bout that.
(Read *somewhere* not here i think, about efforts to use CFC anyway because it would be easier to produce, initially, then later scrubbing it *again*, but that makes little sense IMHO... You'd have to force life to re-re adapt to new situations, could be difficult....)
*Do you really think a soletta is such a good idea? What if, after years of life adapting to the new energy and light-levels, it would fail? (massive tear or something like that) Wouldn't that trigger a global (Martian) die-off of plant-(and animal) life? An eco-system not dependent on this soletta would be much more robust in the long run, given enough time to settle its niches... Depending for a big deal on such a flimsy (litt) structure for terraforming is taking a big risk, considering Mr. Murphy interplanetary law...
#3624 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » question - nanotechnology » 2003-11-24 03:23:19
I agree with Shaun ... Also, it's not because these nanotubes will be used, they'll end up massively in the environment, at least not intentionally... See them as building blocks, that will be *contained* in the nfactories, and assembled into macrostuff... Loose particles= loss of material, so manufacturers will do anything possible to minimize that loss...
Take, for instance laser-printer and Xerox toner, minuscule particles, harmfull, but they are contained in closed cannisters, and fused onto paper... Maybe in copy-centres there's elevated concentrations of the stuff, but it's not like they're pouring the stuff all over the place. Not intentionally, at least....
Also right by Shaun: it's the Xtal structure that's so damaging in asbestos, our lungs have the ability to expell foreign matter, and most of the dust particles get cleaned out of our lungs (if that were not the case, we'd be literally full of dust within months.) The asbestos Xtals damage the lungs, by 'cutting' them up and creating scar tissue, rendering the lungs increasingly ineffective.
I'm not saying there's no reason to concern, far from, but there's a lot of specultion going on about nanostuf (both pos and neg) that cloud the picture...
#3625 Re: Terraformation » Rapid Terraforming... - ...the most ambitious ideas? » 2003-11-24 00:16:44
I'm a bit hesitant to bring this up, but...
Anybody has an idea about how much effect the introduction of 'earth' organisms would have on the climate of Mars?
Some recent studies showed that Lovelock's(sp?) Gaia- theory has at least SOME truth in it... ie: life tends to shape the climate towards 'better' variables, to make its ecosphere more suitable to life, regardless the external factors. Would the introduction of hardy organisms trigger a more Earth-like climate, by influencing the composition of the athmosphere or would they simply adapt to the Mars circumstances? How much biomass would be needed to get significant changes (chlorophyl being not overly efficient...) The production of athmospheric oxygen could lead, in time, to a useful ozone layer, making for a better radiation blanket, also...
If Mars is on the brink of 'defrosting' maybe just a little biological nudge could be enough...
As an aside, those super greenhouse gasses, wouldn't it be better to produce a variety that doesn't deplete the already minimal amounts of stratospheric O3? Radiation being already bad enough as it is now...