Katrina and New Orleans

clark · 2005-09-16 05:28:07

I wonder what the opinion will be when New Orleans sinks again in a couple of years.

Josh Cryer · 2005-09-16 09:04:06

It won't sink again unless it's a terrorist attack or some other unnatural thing. New Orleans will soon have Norway-esque protections, and its levy system will never be neglected again.

Mardi Gras was a joke, of course, if you've ever been the male to female ratio is something like 20 to 1. It's really quite depressing and not enjoyable at all... heh.

BWhite · 2005-09-16 10:03:02

Norway? Maybe you mean Holland.

IMHO, re-build the city center and historic districts. Build housing on higher ground perhaps in various suburbs, ABOVE sea level. That way, after it floods, the water will simply drain away by itself.

clark · 2005-09-16 10:11:32

The ratio works to others advantages, Mr. Man.

BWhite · 2005-09-16 10:49:31

Gretna might be a terrific place for some new federal housing for displaced folk from New Orleans.

C M Edwards · 2005-09-16 13:00:43

I wonder what the opinion will be when New Orleans sinks again in a couple of years.

What do you mean, "in a couple of years"? It's still sinking now!

And really, although I attend a Mardi Gras parade at least every couple of years, I've never been fool enough to go to New Orleans to do it. :? It's not the male-to-female ratio that dissuaded me (although Josh is right about that by all accounts). The drunk-to-sober ratio and the tourist-to-local ratio were far more influential.

Besides, a bunch of drunk yankees doesn't hold a candle to a passel of cajuns with horses and live chickens. They can have their Mardi Gras parade, and the rest of Louisiana will have ours.

clark · 2005-09-16 13:51:43

I hate to think what ya'll Cajuns do with them horses and chickens during Mardi Gras.

But, to each their own.

C M Edwards · 2005-09-17 14:39:54

Levee reconstruction's Big Sister

Coast 2050 is the current plan proposed by the US Army Corps of Engineers for restoring the barrier of coastal wetlands south of New Orleans. A quick survey of the area in question using both the road map and satellite photo functions of Google Maps for comparison (the photos are recent, the map was accurate thirty years ago) suggests there's currently nothing to restore, but the Mississippi can dump enough silt to take care of that. Basically, they want to build up a plot of land the size of New Orleans, then keep going.

Coast 2050 is not exactly turning the Mississippi loose and letting it be a river again, but it's close. I say, go to town. 8)

John Creighton · 2005-09-17 15:13:08

Levee reconstruction's Big Sister
Coast 2050 is the current plan proposed by the US Army Corps of Engineers for restoring the barrier of coastal wetlands south of New Orleans. A quick survey of the area in question using both the road map and satellite photo functions of Google Maps for comparison (the photos are recent, the map was accurate thirty years ago) suggests there's currently nothing to restore, but the Mississippi can dump enough silt to take care of that. Basically, they want to build up a plot of land the size of New Orleans, then keep going.
Coast 2050 is not exactly turning the Mississippi loose and letting it be a river again, but it's close. I say, go to town. 8)

I wish I could see the article. So this would stop New Orleans from sinking and decrease the storm serge?

RobertDyck · 2005-09-17 17:17:00

Coast 2050 government web site.
Google maps
Report: Changes in Louisiana's shoreline: 1855-2002
It shows rapid change around the Mississippi delta, the summary says the average short term (30 year) shoreline change is 30.9 feet/year. New Orleans is several miles inland from the shoreline but the land is designated part of the delta on page D-42.

BWhite · 2005-09-17 23:16:16

Levee reconstruction's Big Sister
Coast 2050 is the current plan proposed by the US Army Corps of Engineers for restoring the barrier of coastal wetlands south of New Orleans. A quick survey of the area in question using both the road map and satellite photo functions of Google Maps for comparison (the photos are recent, the map was accurate thirty years ago) suggests there's currently nothing to restore, but the Mississippi can dump enough silt to take care of that. Basically, they want to build up a plot of land the size of New Orleans, then keep going.
Coast 2050 is not exactly turning the Mississippi loose and letting it be a river again, but it's close. I say, go to town. 8)

The silt issue is a big one for me.

I recall reading a book many years ago saying that valuable midwestern top soil is being shot out into the deeper regions of the Gulf of Mexico because the levee system accelerates the water flow like a fire hose.

Use the silt to build wetlands and marshes and in decades or centuries to come, fertile farmland can be "built" by growing the Delta.

srmeaney · 2005-09-18 09:03:12

http://www.fxnetwork.com/shows/original … /main.html

fictional documentary film "Oilstorm"...everyone needs to watch it.

RobertDyck · 2005-09-18 11:40:11

http://www.fxnetwork.com/shows/original … /main.html
fictional documentary film "Oilstorm"...everyone needs to watch it.

Why? I watched the trailer from the link you gave, it looks like sensationalism intended to frighten people. Response to a hurricane is bad enough. I lived through 3 hurricanes, one in a suburb of Richmond, Virginia, the other two in Miami, Florida. Each time people rushed to the stores as if their life depended on it. Stores increased prices and people grabbed everything they can and pushed each other to get to the cash register. I just laughed, why do that? After warnings of power outrage and store closing after a major hurricane I ensured I had one shelf of food that doesn't require refrigeration and doesn't require a working stove to cook. I got a small charcoal barbecue anyway. I also got a flashlight and batteries, but also had candles and matches. When the hurricane was announced and people were rushing about I made a point of staying home.

Same thing with gas. If gas prices are increasing dramatically, just use your car to go to work and walk to the corner store. Drive as little as possible. If you work downtown use mass transit: bus or subway. Don't fill your gas tank as soon as prices increase, wait until the tank is very low. Use the laws of supply and demand in your favour: don't buy when prices go up, force gas stations to decrease prices. When prices come back down then use your car again, not before.

If gas prices do go up as ridiculously as the documentary claims ($7.59 per gallon!?) then start using alternatives. When I drove to the Mars Society convention this year I passed a billboard in North Dakota for a company selling bio-diesel made from soybeans. As I've said elsewhere on this board, bio-diesel works as well as petroleum diesel and actually cleans fuel tanks and fuel lines. Highway trucks can use that instead. You can make bio-diesel from any oil seed: soybean, corn, canola, rape seed, sunflower, safflower, or cotton seed. Theoretically you could even make bio-diesel from cocoanut, palm oil, olive, peanut, almond, pumpkin, sesame, walnut, poppy seed, or even grape pip. Grape pips (seeds) are a by-product of wine making. Brazil has converted cars to use 100% ethanol; that's made from corn. Currently in the US ethanol is used as an additive to increase octane, typically 10% ethanol/90% gasoline. Pure ethanol explodes stronger than gasoline so an engine block that uses 100% ethanol needs stronger cylinder heads and stronger push rods. Electric cars use batteries, just recharge instead of buying fuel. Electric vehicles are available today with nickel metal hydride batteries, I also know a couple companies who make lithium ion batteries for cars. Then there's my favourite: hydrogen fuel cells.

Bottom line is if gasoline prices rise unreasonably we can use an alternative, we have several options.

C M Edwards · 2005-09-18 14:23:53

I wish I could see the article. So this would stop New Orleans from sinking and decrease the storm serge?

Oh, sorry - link's bad. Robert Dyck posted a working version. (Thanks, Robert.)

This plan probably would not stop land subsidence in New Orleans, but could decrease storm surge over time by building up new land between New Orleans and the Gulf of Mexico as a buffer zone.

When I posted earlier that New Orleans was expected to be a coastal city in fifty years, that was not an exaggeration. It is, if anything, a conservative figure. Land subsidence south of New Orleans is proceeding at such a rate that new maps are desperately needed because maps of the area surveyed earlier than 1980 are no longer remotely accurate.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-19 11:42:07

[url=http://www.slate.com/id/2126321/?GT1=6900]Where To Hide From Mother Nature
Wyoming? Nope. West Virginia? Think again.[/url]

color-coded map reveals, the Eastern half of the nation has had the most officially declared disasters, although North Dakota, Washington, and California have endured more than their share of woe.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-20 20:09:33

NASA Cooperative Airborne Laser Mapping Studies Katrina Damage

Tools to aid with possible rebuilding or is this just another out of pocket expense that Nasa is roped into doing... In either case good that Nasa has the tools to use.

John Creighton · 2005-09-20 20:20:36

It seems just people are about ready to come back another one is on the way.

Palomar · 2005-09-21 07:06:43

*I heard on a TV news segment last week that fund$ intended for surveying and planning to build up N.O.'s levees years ago were diverted for the bridge over Lake P. Not sure if they fortified the bridge, studied traffic flow or what. Regardless, $$$ intended for studying the levee system were diverted to the bridge and some of the money is also unaccounted for.

Now Hurricane Rita (just a few minutes ago classed as a Category 4) might lash the N.O. area with more rain. In areas where Katrina's flooding has been cleared the ground is still saturated of course, and sewers are overflowing with refuse and garbage. If they do get a lot of rain from Rita...

Anyway, I think the persons in the LA gov't (city, county and/or state) in charge of those fund$ years ago intended for the levee system (which went to the bridge and undoubtedly some in their own pockets instead) should be made to take up shovels, rakes, whatever and help clean up the mess: 10 hours a day of manual labor.

If they'd been compliant with the plans for the funding N.O. wouldn't be in this mess.

--Cindy

clark · 2005-09-21 07:25:00

Wouldn't most of those people be in their 60's and 70's by now? This was like 30 years ago.

Maybe they can push a broom on their walker.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-21 07:44:02

The deversion of funds is a common problem within state governements and many times they are for keeping existing infrastruture in good working order but some how costs overruns eat up the avaiable funding or it gets redirected.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-21 08:43:02

Lawmakers Prepare Plans to Finance Storm Relief

Conservative House Republicans plan to recommend on Wednesday more than $500 billion in savings over 10 years to compensate for the costs of Hurricane Katrina as lawmakers continue to struggle to develop a consensus on the fiscal approach to the disaster.

Balancing the budget is not easy but this is what they will try to do and where the money will come from:

At the top of a partial list of the potential cuts being circulated on Tuesday were previously suggested ideas like delaying the start of the new Medicare prescription drug coverage for one year to save $31 billion and eliminating $25 billion in projects from the newly enacted transportation measure.
The list also proposed eliminating the Moon-Mars initiative that NASA announced on Monday, for $44 billion in savings; ending support for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, $4 billion; cutting taxpayer payments for the national political conventions and the presidential election campaign fund, $600 million; and charging federal employees for parking, $1.54 billion.

John Creighton · 2005-09-21 11:25:06

I don't want to divert this thread too much but if they want an out in Iraq this would be a good excuses and would free up a lot of recourses that they could direct at rebuilding the levy system. Regardless of whether America should be in IRAQ or not in the first place they have there own problems at home. A growing deficit and a levy system that will take 20 years to build to be able to withstand a category 4 hurricane. With all these costs I worry about the end of the manned space program. I know a nation must always pay a price in war but how big a price should a nation pay with such little gratification. Send the soldiers home with shovels rebuild the leaves and rebuild the marshlands. Is IRAQ really worth the end of the manned space exploration?

srmeaney · 2005-09-21 21:30:31

I guess that makes the 2018 Moon mission another Flag and Footprint Game.

We can only hope that when they cut NASA, they spend the funds on something important like rebuilding the social infrastructure.

clark · 2005-09-22 04:39:34

http://images.spaceref.com/news/2005/JS … .pitch.ppt

The above link will take you to a NASA prepared powerpoint that will show the destruction and cost associated with Hurricane Clara (1961), a Category 4 Hurricane that hit the same area.

It is rather remarkable when you see just how much of the coastline is submerged.

Palomar · 2005-09-22 12:22:59

Hurricane Rita's rains begin falling

*...in New Orleans. Is being lashed by the storm's outer bands. 3 to 5 inches accumulation predicted.

Rita's rains and a predicted 3- to-4-foot storm surge could bring New Orleans dangerously close to predictions that the fractured levees can only handle up to 6 inches of rain and a storm surge of 10 to 12 feet.

--Cindy

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Re: Katrina and New Orleans

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Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#240 2005-09-19 11:42:07

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#241 2005-09-20 20:09:33

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#242 2005-09-20 20:20:36

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#243 2005-09-21 07:06:43

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#244 2005-09-21 07:25:00

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