Katrina and New Orleans

srmeaney · 2005-09-12 17:58:53

Storms like to travel "uphill" along gentle slopes.

srmeaney · 2005-09-13 04:44:57

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/co … 83,00.html

Hillary more popular now that George W. is taking the wrap for Katrina Fiasco.

Looks like they got the game on!
2008 Presidential Battle
Hillary "Castrator" Clinton vs Arnold "Conan" Swartzeneger

Palomar · 2005-09-13 07:50:04

*The New Orleans airport is open again. On last night's ABC Nightly News they had a special segment about displaced musicians in New Orleans finding solace and welcome in Memphis. Various musicians performing were shown and the contrast of styles were highlighted (I prefer Memphis blues to N.O. jazz). Shops, stages, cafes and other venues have worked the N.O. jazz musicians into their routines and etc. Musicians discussed their pain for the dead, other evacuees, the city's plight, hopes of recovery, and how they'll incorporate those emotions/sentiments into new songs. It'll be interesting to see what artistry arises out of the crisis -- and not just limited to musicians of course.

Some folks who stayed behind in N.O. were also shown -- restauranteurs in the French Quarter. One man is cooking his own food of course, and drinking his reserve of wine. The reporter asked about the water situation; the man replied drily that people don't go to his establishment to drink water, lol.

The flood waters are receding more quickly than anticipated, the draining process is commencing very well. Some people are already anticipating Mardi Gras, and if I heard correctly they're even planning a "mini-" Marti Gras within a few months' time.

I told my husband that once New Orleans is back on its feet (it will be!), we should go. I've never had the desire to see N.O. before, but I do now. Almost losing New Orleans triggered a sentiment and longing in me, and my husband was favorable to the idea.

--Cindy

RobertDyck · 2005-09-13 10:18:05

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/co … 83,00.html
Hillary more popular now that George W. is taking the wrap for Katrina Fiasco.

Looks like they got the game on!
2008 Presidential Battle
Hillary "Castrator" Clinton vs Arnold "Conan" Swartzeneger

Arnold Swartzeneger is an immigrant. He can be governor of a state but not president. The U.S. Constitution - Article 2 Section 1 states:

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

Sorry, it's a long time since the adoption of the constitution, the timeline states the constitution went into effect March 4, 1789. I really doubt anyone is still alive from that time so only a natural born citizen can run for president.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-13 11:07:47

[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9287641/]The Other America
An Enduring Shame: Katrina reminded us, but the problem is not new. Why a rising tide of people live in poverty, who they are—and what we can do about it.
[/url]

But after a decade of improvement in the 1990s, poverty in America is actually getting worse. A rising tide of economic growth is no longer lifting all boats. For the first time in half a century, the third year of a recovery (2004) also saw an increase in poverty. In a nation of nearly 300 million people, the number living below the poverty line ($14,680 for a family of three) recently hit 37 million, up more than a million in a year.

Lets do a little math on that number ($14,680) /52 weeks and then again by 40hrs means $7.05 if I have done my math correctly. I guess minimum wage should then be that number but guess what it is $5.45 and most in this area are working for wages some where between the $7.05 and the $5.45 an hour. Gee no wonder we are seeing the ranks of those in poverty swell.

[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9324891/]Bush takes blame for flaws in Katrina response
President heading to Louisiana on Thursday for primetime speech[/url]

Yah but does he really mean to do something about it other than fire the Fema boss.

Then again [url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9314604/]Katrina pushing up prices across the board
From seafood to transportation, we're all paying more[/url]

srmeaney · 2005-09-13 16:03:55

Arnold Swartzeneger is an immigrant. He can be governor of a state but not president.

Unfortunately the Constitution is open to change.http://www.amendforarnold.com/

All Hail King Conan!

So the Question becomes, Is the United States capable of making the transition to Multiculturalism at the Government level?

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/de … delite.htm Perhaps not quite yet...Oh well, Perhaps Michigan Born Michael Moore will run for President as an independent.

clark · 2005-09-14 05:54:00

So the Question becomes, Is the United States capable of making the transition to Multiculturalism at the Government level?

I'll bite.

We have multiculturism at all levels of government, save the highest branches of the federal government. Immigrants have been Mayors, Governors, Sheriff's, Judges, etc.

The one rationale argument against having an immigrant be a sitting President is the issue of foreign affairs. Imagine an immigrant President who has to decide to invade his country of origin (so the argument goes).

Anyway, I see the point, but I discount it because it is a bit akin to expect a Catholic President to be taking orders from the Pope (JFK anyone?). I think if someone has been in America long enough, they "become" American. That is what this nation is really about. Resistence is futile.

I say let them run for office. No one has to vote for them. If some people want to vote for them, I see nothing wrong in giving my fellow countrymen that opportunity.

DonPanic · 2005-09-14 08:35:41

LO

I'll bite.
We have multiculturism at all levels of government, save the highest branches of the federal government. Immigrants have been Mayors, Governors, Sheriff's, Judges, etc.

To that point of view, USA is much more advanced than here in France where immigration originated populations are underrepresented in all branches of local and national institutions. Same with women.
I'm really not proud of that, :oops: although it means that communitarism is low and that immigrated populations mix more with native populations than in USA, then their votes are sunk among native votes.

srmeaney · 2005-09-14 21:56:02

Here's the 911 on Katrina...

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/st … on=single2

This is the lesson of Katrina: Cronyism kills.

RobertDyck · 2005-09-14 22:27:41

Oh, come on. Let's not "play the blame game" as George W. put it. I seriously expect people to pull together in a time of emergency. During the "Flood of the Century" in 1997 people here volunteered to help neighbours pile sand bags to protect their homes. They didn't loot or mug or commit violence. Yes, there was concern when the flood gate didn't operate at first, people asked why politicians would let that happen. But it was fixed in 1 hour and people forgot about it in a day or two. The flood rose so high that the city was in danger of water flowing around embankments (sort of a low levee), and the flow was greater than the floodway's capacity so more water was permitted through the main river channel than normal. The military was called in to increase the embankment west of the river (the floodway goes around the city on the east) and help sandbag homes inside the city close to the river. I know one person who criticized young soldiers for driving their APC right over her front lawn and tearing up her grass rather than using the driveway. But these were minor things, easily forgotten. People greatly thanked the military for successful defending the city.

News reports from New Orleans stated reporters were escorted out of their hotels by soldiers with assault rifles. The article in RollingStone that srmeaney linked states "Children were raped. Old ladies expired in their wheelchairs." Oh, please tell me it isn't so. Either the author who wrote this should be ashamed of making such a statement or citizens of New Orleans should be ashamed of letting something like that happen. Yes, the flood of New Orleans was horrible and homes were destroyed, but authorities can not be held responsible for looting, rape, or other acts of violence. It's a rather damning commentary on society if military is necessary to prevent lawlessness at the first opportunity.

srmeaney · 2005-09-14 22:33:19

News reports from New Orleans stated reporters were escorted out of their hotels by soldiers with assault rifles. The article in RollingStone that srmeaney linked states "Children were raped. Old ladies expired in their wheelchairs." Oh, please tell me it isn't so. Either the author who wrote this should be ashamed of making such a statement or citizens of New Orleans should be ashamed of letting something like that happen. Yes, the flood of New Orleans was horrible and homes were destroyed, but authorities can not be held responsible for looting, rape, or other acts of violence. It's a rather damning commentary on society if military is necessary to prevent lawlessness at the first opportunity.

Bad News RobertDyck,

Old folks home was abandoned by its staff leaving the oldies to croak in the floodwaters.
It is worse than Americans are being told...It was a complete failure of individual and governmental responsibility.

Grypd · 2005-09-15 05:38:52

The Old persons home that this tragedy happened at was ordered to be abandoned. A Bus did come but the propieter refused the order saying her charges where too frail to survive the journey.

When the waters came the people where trapped and they could not get out and they did try to save themselves but it was too late. This was someones fault but she stayed with her charges and died too.

The Old lady who passed away in her wheelchair in the dome had a heart attack and though they tried to save her there was no way the poor medical conditions in the dome could anything be done. So they left her in the Chair was this callous NO

There had been a lot of people who died and had been put in a temporary morque in what was the basement of the Dome. It though flooded and so they had no where to put the lady. Do you think anyone would have been as heartless as to push her down the stairs into the flooded cellar.

There was a lot of lawlessness in the Dome/New Orleans but also a lot of people trying to do there best in a situation which was hopeless.

This is what a disaster is do you honestly believe that any country is prepared for a major city to suddenly be completely underwater and to have to evacuate all the citizens. Do you think all the citizens are going to be willing to leave. There where mistakes and organisation was not as good as it should have been but though we may make plans for such events do you really think anyone actually believes its going to happen. Look at Californians and there Cities on major Faults. Look at Italians and there city of Naples under Vesuvius that has already destroyed Roman cities so quickly. Look at London which has just the same problems as New Orleans and will have to raise its flood defences.

We humans are optimists who tend to believe if the worst happens it will not happen to me.

clark · 2005-09-15 05:53:57

The thin line between civility and barbarity. None of this should be surprising.

RobertDyck · 2005-09-15 12:13:01

The thin line between civility and barbarity. None of this should be surprising.

It is surprising. It's also quite damning that American society should be so barbaric. One reason the Quakers and other setters founded the first colonies in America was to get away from that aspect of European society. Royalty viewed the "peasants" as a bunch of barbarians who would erupt into lawlessness at the first opportunity. One primary reason for the military was to attack the people of their own country if an uprising occurred. Part of the constitution of the United States was established to prevent that. The country was supposed to be "by the people, for the people, of the people" rather than some royal elite riding herd on unwashed horde. A primary reason for the second amendment is a final check against government should it fail to represent the people; if the government cannot be brought under control of the citizens then the citizens can hold another revolution to kick out the government. This attitude of a "thin line between civility and barbarity" is a return to elitism. Lawlessness in New Orleans justifies the view of citizens as barbarians who have to be closely controlled. Responsible behaviour would mean government intervention is not necessary, people would spontaneously organize themselves to take care of their neighbours. Settlers used to do that, what happened? Why are Americans letting themselves be characterized as rabble?

Palomar · 2005-09-15 12:28:25

It is surprising. It's also quite damning that American society should be so barbaric. One reason the Quakers and other setters founded the first colonies in America was to get away from that aspect of European society. Royalty viewed the "peasants" as a bunch of barbarians who would erupt into lawlessness at the first opportunity. One primary reason for the military was to attack the people of their own country if an uprising occurred. Part of the constitution of the United States was established to prevent that. The country was supposed to be "by the people, for the people, of the people" rather than some royal elite riding herd on unwashed horde. A primary reason for the second amendment is a final check against government should it fail to represent the people; if the government cannot be brought under control of the citizens then the citizens can hold another revolution to kick out the government. This attitude of a "thin line between civility and barbarity" is a return to elitism. Lawlessness in New Orleans justifies the view of citizens as barbarians who have to be closely controlled. Responsible behaviour would mean government intervention is not necessary, people would spontaneously organize themselves to take care of their neighbours. Settlers used to do that, what happened? Why are Americans letting themselves be characterized as rabble?

*I don't think it's fair to characterize the entire nation by one event or in one geographical region.

An example (albeit a trivial one): In 1992 I moved to the Desert SW from the Midwest. I was surprised and put off, during a company potluck dinner, to see people simply thronging up to the long buffet table in a helter-skelter and disorganized fashion. Up in the Midwest people would form 2 lines, one on each side of the table, and progress down the table in an orderly fashion.

If you were to see the former group of people you'd likely have an unfavorable view of Americans; if you'd seen the latter, you'd likely have a favorable view.

It just depends, often, on a variety of factors...

I heard on the news the other evening that a major fault in the N.O. fiasco lay in FEMA being placed under the supervision of the Department of Homeland Security shortly after 9/11 -- that's IIRC. Now they're going to take FEMA out from under the DHS umbrella apparently (no pun intended).

The fallout from 9/11 was relatively orderly -- actually I was amazed how organized and orderly the evacuation from that area was, considering the terrible stress of it. People were helping one another get away from the Towers area, I don't recall any reports of blind stampeding, etc.

--Cindy

clark · 2005-09-15 12:44:28

This attitude of a "thin line between civility and barbarity" is a return to elitism. Lawlessness in New Orleans justifies the view of citizens as barbarians who have to be closely controlled. Responsible behaviour would mean government intervention is not necessary, people would spontaneously organize themselves to take care of their neighbours. Settlers used to do that, what happened? Why are Americans letting themselves be characterized as rabble?

Responsible behavior would mean we wouldn’t need government. If all men were noble, what need would we have for laws?

In some places, people spontaneously organize. In others, spontaneously reorganize possession and ownership.

But, at the very basis of this all, you have desperate people in a desperate situation, acting desperately. All this bull-plucky called “society” starts to matter less and less when you are reduced to a situation of basic survival.

What did we see in New Orleans? We saw the weakest members of society (poor, uneducated, and minority) receiving less help, less aid, and slow response times to their plight. It’s Darwinism in action. Now, when faced with a situation where there are limited supplies of scare resources, many individuals start thinking about only themselves, or their immediate family (isn’t that capitalism and self-interest in action?).

What we witnessed is that people generally play by the rules as long as they think it is to their advantage. As soon as it stops, they start acting out (which kind of goes hand in hand with the whole rebelling against the Elites who impose stricter rules on the ‘herd’). [shrug]

RobertDyck · 2005-09-15 12:50:51

Ok. I was born and lived most of my life in Winnipeg, just north of North Dakota. I guess it isn't surprising that many of my "character" beliefs are similar to the Midwest. I also believe it's very good to separate FEMA from DHS.

Hmm, during the Mars close approach in 2003 the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada (the astronomy club) set-up their telescopes at "The Forks". That's a nice shopping area & marina downtown at the forks of the 2 rivers where the city was founded. Club members noticed people spontaneously lined up to look at Mars through the biggest telescope; no one asked them to line up.

I do want to emphasize the need for people to take responsibility themselves rather than pointing the finger at a leader. Looting and lawlessness is the fault of the community, not federal leaders.

Palomar · 2005-09-15 13:00:59

I do want to emphasize the need for people to take responsibility themselves rather than pointing the finger at a leader. Looting and lawlessness is the fault of the community, not federal leaders.

*Oh, I agree. Trouble is, New Orleans was a violent city for starters. Not sure why as I've never lived there (the closest to N.O. I've lived is Longview, TX -- still quite a distance away), can't speak for its local character and etc. There are indeed regional differences in the U.S.; I've lived a few places and moving to my current locale was a bit of culture shock (both with the whites -- rather different from Midwestern whites -- and Latinos [who are somewhat different, culturally speaking, than Latinos in southern TX]).

When NYC was hit on 9/11 it had (and still has) low crime rates. Under Guliani NYC got cleaned up and its act straightened out quite a bit, based on what I've read/heard. If 9/11 had occurred in 1981 or 1977, during a lot of unrest and violence in that city, the fallout would likely have been very different.

Again, it depends on a variety of factors.

--Cindy

P.S.: New Orleans also had a serial killer afoot for years, and last I knew still uncaught. Can't recall his "code name" or whatever, but I read various internet news items of women there taking special precautions to avoid being the next victim. I've also heard some reputable 1st-hand accounts of how terribly corrupt the N.O.P.D. is (many are in cohoots with the gangsters, and may even have been part of the looting and plundering -- aiding and abetting, taking a hand in it).

Josh Cryer · 2005-09-15 13:11:22

The cases of negative behavior were highly exaggerated by the media, imho. Granted, New Orleans is one of the most violent cities in the country, but whn push came to shove, the pushing and shoving took a back seat.

clark · 2005-09-15 13:47:16

People sniping at doctors evacuating a hospital?
Child rape?
People dead in the street from being bludgeoned to death, or shot?

Josh Cryer · 2005-09-15 13:53:16

Behavior instigated by a very small minority? Indeed, those who acted that way probably behaved that way on a regular basis anyway. New Orleans was quite a violent city, at least 3-4 murders a day. A day without a murder was actually abnormal.

clark · 2005-09-15 14:13:40

And we should rebuild it because...

Josh Cryer · 2005-09-15 14:33:57

Mardi Gras!

C M Edwards · 2005-09-15 14:52:53

And we should rebuild it because...

Mardi Gras!

LOL!

Actually, we should rebuild it because it's part of the third largest port in the world and a lot of people who never lived there are going to miss it if we don't. Also, I'm getting tired of people sleeping on the floors of my local sports arenas.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-16 05:22:15

And we should rebuild it because...

Even though the people may have been or are corupt, they still have rights to the ownership of the property even if it maybe under water.

The big losers out of this are thoses that rent or have no Insurance to cover the damage. Even if most Insurance companies will balk at paying...

Manicipalities will hopefully look at what did and did not withstand the huricane and will make the appropiate decisions necessary for a lasting reconstruction.

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