Katrina and New Orleans

John Creighton · 2005-09-11 09:56:16

"I hate the way they portray us in the media. If you see a black family, it says they're looting. See a white family, it says they're looking for food."
-Rapper Kanye West, deviating from the script during a live telethon for Hurricane Katrina victims.
Based on Kanyes assessment of "how it is", the final cleanout of New Orleans will involve instrutions to kill anyone who says "no". I do however doubt that that will include the execution of Journalists and their camera crews, as it has in Iraq, there just aint enough Reuters journalists to go around.

I really hope that is not true. I don't see why people in dry areas are being forced to live the comfort of there own homes and go live in a shelter were you have few possessions, must share public washrooms, could get robed and must wait hours in line for food. It strikes me as very odd.

RobertDyck · 2005-09-11 11:40:21

I was hoping they would fix the levees and pump out the city in less than a week. Tomorrow it'll be 2 weeks. It's long past time for people to return to their homes and rebuild. The time period is important to control damage. Water damage from a flood requires all drywall, wall insulation, carpets and soaked soft furniture be ripped out and replaced. Wood and brick need not be. That means most houses can be repaired, but if it's left too long the wood will start to rot. At this point it's not too late, but clean-up must start soon.

TV news reports show police breaking in front doors to haul people out of their homes against their will. Broken doors and door frames are additional damage and let looters in; these forcible police actions are causing damage, not helping anyone. One TV news report showed a police or National Guard boat ram a house front door that was partially submerged. That let dirty water in causing more damage. The longer water is left in the city the longer police will cause damage.

This raises the question whether emergency services know that they're doing. Treating it as a 3rd world combat zone creates a combat zone. I'm not sure if they simply don't know how to quickly start reconstruction so as to minimize damage, or if they're deliberately trying to create more damage as an excuse to tear down areas below sea level. Is that the plan? Resolve the issue of a low lying city by forcing people out while anything repairable is wrecked? News reports already stated the French Quarter has minimal damage, is the idea to salvage just that and bulldoze all newer housing developments? If so it would be far less damaging both economically and to people's psyche to simply declare that low lying areas will be designated for demolition and let home owners salvage their possessions. Returning low lying areas to swamp will require expropriating private property, complete with financial compensation. Are officials trying to create damage as an excuse to reduce financial compensation?

If government motivations are honest and honourable, then it's time to go home. Pump out the water fast and let people return.

John Creighton · 2005-09-11 11:50:43

I was hoping they would fix the levees and pump out the city in less than a week. Tomorrow it'll be 2 weeks. It's long past time for people to return to their homes and rebuild. The time period is important to control damage. Water damage from a flood requires all drywall, wall insulation, carpets and soaked soft furniture be ripped out and replaced. Wood and brick need not be. That means most houses can be repaired, but if it's left too long the wood will start to rot. At this point it's not too late, but clean-up must start soon.
TV news reports show police breaking in front doors to haul people out of their homes against their will. Broken doors and door frames are additional damage and let looters in; these forcible police actions are causing damage, not helping anyone. One TV news report showed a police or National Guard boat ram a house front door that was partially submerged. That let dirty water in causing more damage. The longer water is left in the city the longer police will cause damage.
This raises the question whether emergency services know that they're doing. Treating it as a 3rd world combat zone creates a combat zone. I'm not sure if they simply don't know how to quickly start reconstruction so as to minimize damage, or if they're deliberately trying to create more damage as an excuse to tear down areas below sea level. Is that the plan? Resolve the issue of a low lying city by forcing people out while anything repairable is wrecked? News reports already stated the French Quarter has minimal damage, is the idea to salvage just that and bulldoze all newer housing developments? If so it would be far less damaging both economically and to people's psyche to simply declare that low lying areas will be designated for demolition and let home owners salvage their possessions. Returning low lying areas to swamp will require expropriating private property, complete with financial compensation. Are officials trying to create damage as an excuse to reduce financial compensation?
If government motivations are honest and honourable, then it's time to go home. Pump out the water fast and let people return.

It is probably not a fair comparison but I can't help think about the explosion of the Acadians. I heard an interesting cynical comment on the news. They said they want people out because it is the police doing the looting. Probably overly cynical but I can't see why they are kicking people out of there homes. Perhaps Robert is right that they want to expropriate all the land at a low cost.

John Creighton · 2005-09-11 12:18:41

I'm think about what Robert says and even in some of the submerged areas where houses are nearly completely covered there are other houses near buy which are no longer submerged. If these people had access to a boat they could be down there saving there home now as we speak. But they are not allowed to. They are forced to live in a shelter and watch there home rot. I just can't imagine what that feels like. People should be checking for unsubmerged properties and report this information to the shelters so people can return home and rebuild there lives.

RobertDyck · 2005-09-11 12:39:17

I found this article from the New Orleans Times-Picayune; it's dated today. They said drainage pumps powered by the Sewerage & Water Board are now operating, about 2/3 of the city's pumps, but those powered by Entergy aren't.

some agency employees expressed optimism that much of the city will be dry in two or three weeks, although they cautioned it could be longer.
The Army Corps of Engineers offered more specific predictions Saturday. Current projections are that the "primary flooded areas" of Orleans Parish will be dry by Oct. 2, said Dan Hitchings, a director in the corps' Mississippi Valley division. More heavily flooded eastern New Orleans and St. Bernard Parish are expected to be dry by Oct. 8, and Plaquemines Parish by Oct. 18

Not as quick as I would like, and endangering wooden structures, but at least they're working on it.

::Edit:: The article also pointed out the US Army Corp of engineers brought the largest portable pumps that exist, but each only has 1/10th the capacity of one of the city's big pumps. S&WB workers said US Army Corp of engineers help is nice but city pumps must get working. They said US Army Corp of engineers primarily helped by fixing levees. I'm thinking, does the Corp have portable generators capable of powering the big pumps that would normally be powered by Entergy? Could they get all city pumps fully operating?

Palomar · 2005-09-11 14:18:25

"I hate the way they portray us in the media. If you see a black family, it says they're looting. See a white family, it says they're looking for food."
-Rapper Kanye West, deviating from the script during a live telethon for Hurricane Katrina victims.
Based on Kanyes assessment of "how it is", the final cleanout of New Orleans will involve instrutions to kill anyone who says "no". I do however doubt that that will include the execution of Journalists and their camera crews, as it has in Iraq, there just aint enough Reuters journalists to go around.

I really hope that is not true. I don't see why people in dry areas are being forced to live the comfort of there own homes and go live in a shelter were you have few possessions, must share public washrooms, could get robed and must wait hours in line for food. It strikes me as very odd.

*The gov't has backed down and is not going to force people to leave. Initially this was being done (for a few days) and now it has stopped. Frankly I don't believe anyone should be forced to leave. Most of the evacuees felt compelled to leave of their own volition because of the flooding and etc.

I don't know about standing in line for hours waiting for food; I've seen dozens of volunteers delivering meals to persons in the Astrodome (walking between rows and rows of cots, handing out packages of food) -- picking up evacuees' laundry, sorting the laundry, doing the laundry, delivering toiletries, etc. I've seen other shelters where the evacuees are being assisted in getting jobs, being tended to as swiftly as possible (meals, clothing, miscellaneous), etc. No, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes but considering the massive numbers of people involved...I'm surprised it's working out as well as it is. We're talking hundreds of thousands of people -- that's quite a challenge.

As for Kanye's comments, I've seen (on TV, internet articles, newspapers) what I feel to be a great level of fairness in how blacks and whites are being represented. We see blacks helping; whites helping; both receiving food, clothing and healthcare. Oprah Winfrey is black obviously and she's showing all races pitching in and helping. Condi Rice and Colin Powell (no longer with the Bush Admin) are both denying charges of racism -- and they're both black. Mr. Kanye is entitled to his opinion of course, but my overall impression is that of a good level of fairness and equity.

I'll remind folks here that my great-great grandmother was Native American. My husband is Latino, my best friend since before Kindergarten is Asian (adopted from Korea), my nephew is half-Latino. That having been said, I find it "interesting" that someone here continues trying to bang the racism drum against white Americans (many of whom have opened their hearts, homes and wallets to all victims of Katrina), when he's from Australia and I've heard -plenty- of complaints against the Australian gov't (white conquerers) by its Aboriginal Peoples (the indigenous peoples of Australia who sure as heck didn't invite Europeans over). Such anti-American hatred coupled with hypocritical finger-pointing.

Of course America haters will nitpick and fault-find anything.

Sweep off your own back porch. Deal with your own issues of racism and conquered indigenous peoples and social inequities (European-conquered lands scattered around the globe -- including yours).

There are plenty of good people of all races in the U.S. trying to make a better community, work for social justice and etc.

Of course ignorant little-minded bigots never strive to see the bigger picture nor be fair. That may be difficult to do, however, when you're at least 5,000 miles removed from the actual society and situation, and are nursing off the teat of anti-American propoganda.

--Cindy

Palomar · 2005-09-11 14:38:00

People should be checking for unsubmerged properties and report this information to the shelters so people can return home and rebuild there lives.

*Businesses need to be rebuilt too, and swiftly. Must get the jobs back.

Most people aren't being "forced" to stay in shelters, John. Fact is, many have no choice. There is a lot of highly toxic waste in the flood waters. To go back now would mean serious health problems. Electricity hasn't been fully restored, water is still knee-high all around. The clean up is going to take a bit of time. Yes, I'm all for people getting back home ASAP -- I can't fathom what they've endured, are going through and etc. It's completely understandable that they want to return home and some folks still do not want to leave. But the cleanup is going to take a bit of time.

Meanwhile hundreds of volunteers are seeking to make the evacuees as comfortable as possible, churches and local gov't buildings are opening up additional space, small and large businesses across the country are hustling to get people jobs (many evacuees in El Paso, TX are already employed), private citizens are opening their own homes up to evacuees and etc.

There's too much focus on the negative here, IMO. Give some credit where credit is due.

--Cindy

Grypd · 2005-09-11 14:52:21

Many of the refugees are stating they will be back and that New Orleans will rebuilt. All I can hope is that these statements get Federal backing as courage and determination are only so good as the resources they are given.

Still the first people who need all the help they can get are the red cross who need volunteers and then the Army core of engineers who need to be able to build a lot more superior flood defences.

srmeaney · 2005-09-11 19:57:57

Mayor of New Orleans reckons the Nile River Virus will spread across southern America as a result of new Mosquito epedemic due to flooding. Death tole may reach a future projection of fifty thousand in the next five years.

John Creighton · 2005-09-11 20:03:04

Mayor of New Orleans reckons the Nile River Virus will spread across southern America as a result of new Mosquito epedemic due to flooding. Death tole may reach a future projection of fifty thousand in the next five years.

Is that realistic though. Isn’t it mostly old people with week immune systems that die from west Nile virus. Also if it is bad enough the breeding grounds could be sprayed. I think the Mayor of New Orleans Might be a germaphobe and that may be part of the reason he tried to force people from their homes.

srmeaney · 2005-09-11 20:20:48

Is that realistic though. Isn’t it mostly old people with week immune systems that die from west Nile virus. Also if it is bad enough the breeding grounds could be sprayed. I think the Mayor of New Orleans Might be a germaphobe and that may be part of the reason he tried to force people from their homes.

Considering the way Richard Carlton (Australian Reporter) was sweating and displaying various other symptoms, after having spent the day wading through that nasty black water, is it any wonder...

West Nile virus could well damage further the recovery. The losses due to workers on the reconstruction catching it will undermine the Building Industry. A lot of Building Industry Workers are transient-moving to where the building work is.

This will contaminate a large proportion of the US Construction worker Market. Pushing inflation, increasing the burden on US economy and delaying the economies of this region. Because New Orleans was a crew transfer hub for Oil rig workers, there will be increased spread to the oil platforms in the Gulf. If it Hits the mexican labour force in Texas, It will spread amongst people who cant realy go to the doctor for fear of deportation.

John Creighton · 2005-09-11 20:39:03

Is that realistic though. Isn’t it mostly old people with week immune systems that die from west Nile virus. Also if it is bad enough the breeding grounds could be sprayed. I think the Mayor of New Orleans Might be a germaphobe and that may be part of the reason he tried to force people from their homes.
Considering the way Richard Carlton (Australian Reporter) was sweating and displaying various other symptoms, after having spent the day wading through that nasty black water, is it any wonder...
West Nile virus could well damage further the recovery. The losses due to workers on the reconstruction catching it will undermine the Building Industry. A lot of Building Industry Workers are transient-moving to where the building work is.
This will contaminate a large proportion of the US Construction worker Market. Pushing inflation, increasing the burden on US economy and delaying the economies of this region. Because New Orleans was a crew transfer hub for Oil rig workers, there will be increased spread to the oil platforms in the Gulf. If it Hits the mexican labour force in Texas, It will spread amongst people who cant realy go to the doctor for fear of deportation.

How long does it take a healthy person to recover from west Nile and if people started to have problems why couldn't they just start spraying. As for if walking though the water will that make you sick? Aren’t a lot of people doing it and not getting sick. The key is to wash well afterwards or find a way to avoid going though the water in the first place. Also does west Nile even spread person to person? If not the only issue is if hospital care is needed to recover well. As for illegal immigrants getting sic well I suppose that is always an issue regardless of this disaster and I am not going to suggest the best way to deal with this.

srmeaney · 2005-09-11 20:46:16

If you want to live beyond the age of fifty, do not live where they spray mosquitos with insecticide.

John Creighton · 2005-09-11 20:49:39

If you want to live beyond the age of fifty, do not live where they spray mosquitos with insecticide.

Well, they spray all the time in Florida and the average age there is much over 50.

RobertDyck · 2005-09-11 21:41:28

They spray Winnipeg for mosquitos every year. I had a truck spray malathion down my street and back lane a couple times this summer. It's not the most environmentally friendly, it's the cheapest. One neighbourhood protests every year, claiming they're willing to pay extra for a safer insecticide. Politicians don't listen; they spray the same stuff everywhere. City of Winnipeg demographics are available here, scroll down to page 3 to see age breakdown. Lots of people 75+.

Jokes:
The mosquito is the unofficial bird of Winnipeg.
Some claim Winnipeg is the mosquito capital of North America.
Mosquitos are so big they have landing rights at the airport.

Actually they spray insecticide so much that mosquitos aren't bad.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-12 05:22:13

Yup an every year just as fall is nearly upon us they need to spary for EEE (Eastern equine encephalitis virus) infected ones around here. Yes you can die from this much like those can from west nile.

srmeaney · 2005-09-12 05:28:37

Hurricane Katrina Scam...

http://www.crncanada.ca/News/NewsLink.php?Nid=863

SpaceNut · 2005-09-12 05:31:03

We have touched on global warmings infulence but was there direct or just sort of indirect cause for Katrini to become so large so quickly.
[url=http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/space/3349424]MAKING OF A HURRICANE
How did modest Katrina morph into monster?
Experts know what it takes to fuel such fury, but can't predict such a storm in advance[/url]

Knowing global warming exists, but much like earth quake predictions not always easy to pin it down:

Well before Hurricane Katrina slammed into the Gulf Coast shores of the United States, it was clear to storm experts who studied satellite photos and other data that powerful forces of nature, and possibly human influences on the Earth's environment, would create a weather milestone of devastating fury.
But they were unable to predict far in advance precisely when or where a once-modest storm like Katrina would morph into a swirling monster.

But the why it could happen:

The most striking of the forces included the abnormally warm waters along the Gulf Coast and an unusually large mound of swirling high pressure in the atmosphere, centered over the Caribbean and known as the Bermuda High.
The jet stream, a powerful, snaking easterly rush of high altitude air that could have fended off Katrina, played a role by its absence. Snuggled against Canada, the jet stream was out of reach, where it typically is this time of year.

Mundaka · 2005-09-12 08:15:24

RobertDyck · 2005-09-12 09:17:41

A couple good news articles:
New Orleans to begin spraying Insecticide today

A C-130 aircraft, flown by a reserve unit of the U.S. Air Force, will spray naled, also known by the trade name Dibrom, an insecticide that kills adult insects, including mosquitoes, flies and bees, according to officials with the U.S. Public Health Service and the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

Return to Plaquemines begins

When he returned to his Belle Chasse house Sunday after being forced out for two weeks by Hurricane Katrina, Alan Bonvillian knew he was one of the lucky.
A few trees were down. A piece of siding was missing from the exterior of his one-story brick house on Alfred Street. And a freezer’s worth of steaks and shrimp had gone bad when the electricity went out.
But compared with the awe-inspiring ruins of what were once communities in the south and east sections of Plaquemines Parish, home to 27,000 people, he knew the damage was inconsequential.
“The house is still standing, no water damage, and everything is replaceable,” said Bonvillian, 48, a retired welder. “We’ll make do.”
Sunday was the first day an estimated 12,000 of the parish’s residents were allowed to return home to gauge Katrina’s toll. Blocking the return of remaining residents – possibly for another month – is the near-total destruction of homes and businesses south and east of the community of Alliance.

The article also says wind topped 150mph. That's odd; officials said the hurricane was 160mph when still out in the Gulf but weakened to 140mph when it hit New Orleans.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-12 10:46:58

An article that put some retrospect to what is found and the methods being used.

[url=http://www.slate.com/id/2126063/?GT1=6900]Dispatch From New Orleans
What the rescue workers find[/url]

As the rubber rescue boat launches, I ask our team leader for the name of the street we're heading down. He looks down at his map of the New Orleans lakefront and says we're going south on West End Blvd., a major artery that connects I-10 to the neighborhoods just south of Lake Pontchartrain.
If there weren't blue street signs poking out of the water, you might have convinced me this was underwater Nebraska. It has been tough this week to stare down at battered and sunken landmarks, but that I can no longer recognize a street I've driven down hundreds of times is something else entirely.

BWhite · 2005-09-12 14:51:28

You can't make this stuff up!

The president stopped to talk to the [reporter's] pool outside a one story school being repaired, just after 2 pm CDT. He made no news at the 28th Street Elementary School. Asked about Mike Brown resigning, he said he hadn't spoken to Chertoff or Brown, but will be on AF One.
"Maybe you know something I don't know," he said of Brown.

srmeaney · 2005-09-12 16:48:12

1200 Children missing since Hurricane Katrina.

That will be 1200 either dead or in the clutches of evil vermin. This is why the government got it wrong. Dont worry about accountability of corporations for cutting costs on the sea walls and levee banks.

The entire government failed in its duty of care to keep children safe and out of harm.

srmeaney · 2005-09-12 16:59:19

The article also says wind topped 150mph. That's odd; officials said the hurricane was 160mph when still out in the Gulf but weakened to 140mph when it hit New Orleans.

It would have been a converging storm...

Grypd · 2005-09-12 17:29:15

The most striking of the forces included the abnormally warm waters along the Gulf Coast and an unusually large mound of swirling high pressure in the atmosphere, centered over the Caribbean and known as the Bermuda High.
The jet stream, a powerful, snaking easterly rush of high altitude air that could have fended off Katrina, played a role by its absence. Snuggled against Canada, the jet stream was out of reach, where it typically is this time of year.
The jet stream was pushed north against Canada by the Bermuda High , the Bermuda High has been written about as long as people have been sailing to the Americas, and as for "unusually warm waters along the Gulf Coast", what were the temps? For Gulf water temps to be "unusual" they would have to be pretty darn high this time of year -- I grew up surfing those waters (back in the 1960s and '70s) and in the summer you can only stand it for an hour or two: typically in the high 90s F.
(I've surfed them at 99 degrees F plenty.) Were the temps in the 100s?

Yes but it was the overall water tempature of the Gulf of Mexico that was recorded as the highest ever reached and as such supercharged Katrina from a weak level 1 to a monster level 5. The mean was reported as 30.2 degrees centigrade here for water tempatures and though I cant find the link it explains why when Katrina did turn towards land again it was such a threat.

But thankfully the waters are now cooling and the threat of another super hurricane is recedeing

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#176 2005-09-11 09:56:16

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#177 2005-09-11 11:40:21

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#178 2005-09-11 11:50:43

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#179 2005-09-11 12:18:41

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#180 2005-09-11 12:39:17

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#181 2005-09-11 14:18:25

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#182 2005-09-11 14:38:00

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#183 2005-09-11 14:52:21

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#184 2005-09-11 19:57:57

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#185 2005-09-11 20:03:04

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#186 2005-09-11 20:20:48

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#187 2005-09-11 20:39:03

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#188 2005-09-11 20:46:16

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#189 2005-09-11 20:49:39

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#190 2005-09-11 21:41:28

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#191 2005-09-12 05:22:13

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#192 2005-09-12 05:28:37

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#193 2005-09-12 05:31:03

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#194 2005-09-12 08:15:24

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#195 2005-09-12 09:17:41

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#196 2005-09-12 10:46:58

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#197 2005-09-12 14:51:28

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#198 2005-09-12 16:48:12

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#199 2005-09-12 16:59:19

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

#200 2005-09-12 17:29:15

Re: Katrina and New Orleans

Board footer