Katrina and New Orleans

C M Edwards · 2005-09-08 09:54:13

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=3987
Just get mad. Get very very mad.

No, thank you. I have more than enough lazy good-for-nothing politico idiots to be mad at right now. I don't need another. Mrs. Bush is doing the right thing, even if she isn't saying it. A little preventative duct tape over her mouth, and she'll be just fine.

I can't say anything as charitable for Michael Moore at this time.

RobertDyck · 2005-09-08 09:55:54

I haven't read this thread, I hang out in "Human Missions", but I want to add a comment on hurricanes. Global warming is reality, it has started to melted the polar ice caps. A couple years a go a scientist reported on the Discovery channel that an arctic bay that hadn't thawed at all since the arctic was first explored by white people had completely melted, that polar ice melted farther north than on record, and his mission to study the arctic by deliberately jamming an ice breaker ship into an ice pack had difficulty finding a patch of ice thick enough. Now we're seeing the effects of global warming to the south. Global warming will mean El Niño will occur more frequently with fewer years between occurrences and stronger effects each time it happens. This will continue until El Niño gets stuck and we live with it permanently. It also means more hurricanes and larger, stronger hurricanes. We better build in hurricane prone areas to weather the strongest hurricanes without significant damage because this is now the norm.

For those who disagree with the Kyoto accord, this is how global warming affects the United States.

Palomar · 2005-09-08 10:13:12

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=3987
I can't say anything as charitable for Michael Moore at this time.

*MM is merely stirring the kettle, like always. He puts on being "a regular middle-class" American yet lives like royalty in some swank NY penthouse. He must be mightily sore that GWB won re-election and all his pre-election grandstanding came to naught. MM reminds me of Ralph Nader, as Pres. Bush is concerned: Anything to stay in the spotlight. Nader was milking the election results for all they were worth, trying pitifully to stay in the game even after it was evident Kerry and himself had lost. Why isn't MM down in the Gulf Coast area helping, using his celebrity status and prestige to aid and assist victims of Katrina??

On that note, Oprah Winfrey has gotten her Angels in gear. Lisa Marie Presley went herself on a huge shopping spree for toothbrushes, toothpaste, T-shirts, antiperspirants, etc., etc.; she helped unload and distribute boxes of goods, etc. Julia Roberts, John Travolta and others are lending their hearts and hands.

That's terrific. Let's see MM shut his yap for once and actually go do something instead of riding around on W's coattails.

And as for Barbara Bush's alleged comments in Houston, regarding the poor evacuees: I did see a news segment of her, Pres. Bush, and Pres. Clinton...I've not heard her make any such comment and no, I don't particularly like her. Moore might be exaggerating or misrepresenting. I'd want to hear Mrs. Bush's alleged comments myself.

Moore is so obviously a manipulator and poseur. And a loser.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2005-09-08 10:28:20

For those who disagree with the Kyoto accord, this is how global warming affects the United States.

Even though it's like trying to convince the Pope there's no God, I must address this again.

Localized climate changes do not necessarily translate to global changes and the presence of global changes in no way leads to the conclusion that humanity is the sole cause or even a primary factor. But even if we accept the whole human-caused global warming theory as ironclad gospel truth, Kyoto is a joke.

However I have to Robert credit here:

We better build in hurricane prone areas to weather the strongest hurricanes without significant damage because this is now the norm.

Quite right. Preparing for observed trends is required and makes immensely more sense than finger-wagging over unsubstantiated theories about the cause of those trends.

RobertDyck · 2005-09-08 11:28:37

Scientists have been arguing for decades that humans do have a strong effect on global climate. I'll simply refer you to those. The question isn't whether humans have had an impact, the question is merely how much and how far it will go if we don't accept responsibility for our actions. That said there is an impact by nature. The geological record shows we're still warming out of the last ice age. Interglacial ages warmed more than we have today. The ocean is a very large heat sink, it'll take many years before this planet completes warming. But the Earth's response to the Sun's warming trend has been to reduce [tex:f377b8f73a]CO_2[/tex:f377b8f73a] concentration in our atmosphere. All that carbon dioxide so meticulously sequestered by nature is being released by us at an increasing rate. We not only have CFCs that destroy ozone in even tiny concentrations, we have [tex:f377b8f73a]CO_2[/tex:f377b8f73a] at levels not seen on the planet since before the last ice age.

If you want to ignore all that and focus on simple observed trends, hurricanes are occurring more frequently and are larger & stronger. El Niño has been measured in soil layers in California and Peru, which gives us a record of when it has occurred over centuries before Europeans arrived in the Americas. El Niño is happening with fewer years between each occurrence. It happens when cold water from the Bering Sea doesn't flow across the surface of the Pacific ocean into the tropics, but falls at the continental shelf to follow the ocean bottom. This results in warm tropical surface water that heats air and evaporates to form large rain clouds that fall on the Americas. Global warming (natural or man made) is hitting a trigger point that changes this ocean current.

Warming tropical Atlantic and Gulf waters means more heat energy to drive convection currents. Hurricane winds go up 30,000 feet, that's the boundary between the troposphere and stratosphere. We live in the troposphere. The temperature difference between ocean surface water and the top of the troposphere is what drives hurricanes. As ocean surface water gets warmer we'll get more and stronger hurricanes.

Palomar · 2005-09-08 11:42:02

*I've been avoiding the topic, but will take the plunge:

Both viewpoints in the global warming debate could be (is) politicized. Yes, it's good to cut pollution down as much as possible as it definitely isn't beneficial. But there are natural Earth patterns/rhythms as well. Recall the mini-ice age aka the Maunder Minimum (believed to be directly related to very low sunspot counts).

It seems the answer to what is truly occurring is elusive. Is America being a nincompoop for refusing to submit to Kyoto? Are other developed nations who have agreed to compliance with Kyoto a bunch of collectivist ninnies?

I tend towards the "natural processes occurring" outlook. But, again, of course it is always desirable IMO to reduce pollution as much as is reasonably possible, economically speaking.

Wow...I did it...actually chimed in on this issue.

--Cindy

P.S.: It's also important, IMO, to keep in mind that weather-record keeping doesn't go back very far in human history. There is still a lot we don't know. To "call" the entire parade on one or two floats gliding by seems premature.

Cobra Commander · 2005-09-08 12:30:49

From where I'm sitting it seems that Cindy, Robert and I are in basic agreement on the bulk of the issue. Something seems to be happening to the Earth's climate and human activity probably plays some role in it alongside natural processes, the significance of that contribution being wide open for debate.

For every scientist advocating the current global warming theory there's another that debunks it. Either a significant percentage of scientists are thinking in a very unscientific manner, or there simply isn't enough data to make any kind of definitive determinations.

In either case, those guesses aren't a good foundation for policy.

But assuming the accuracy of the theory, Kyoto's projected environmental effects range from insignificant to nonexistant. It's economic effects however are severe, particularly on the United States should this nation accept the protocol. And therein lies my suspicion, coupled with China, the worlds dirtiest and fastest growing polluter being exempted. Something smells funny and it ain't diesel fumes.

RobertDyck · 2005-09-08 22:30:34

Advice when moving to a city in a hurricane zone:
- First thing, look up city/county evacuation zones.
- Choose an apartment building outside the evacuation zone.
- Look for a strong building (brick or concrete, no wood clapboards).
- Choose an apartment above the 2nd floor (3rd floor or higher) to stay dry in case of storm surge.
- If you have a car, ensure the building has an above ground parking structure (parkade).
- Ensure the parkade doesn't have concrete walls at deck edge, just steel cables or equivalent (let hurricane wind through, won't blow down).
- Choose a parking spot not on ground level or 2nd, choose 3rd level or above (don't want your car washed into other cars by storm surge).
- Don't park on the roof, you could get falling debris on your car.
- Better yet, look for an apartment with tennis court, basket ball court, running track, and/or some other facility on parkade roof. That way no one has to park there.

Building a house:
- Look up city/county evacuation plans and flood zones.
- Don't buy land in an evacuation zone.
- Don't buy land below sea level, anywhere that would be flooded if any or all levees broke, or would flood in a category 5 hurricane. Note: storm surge from a category 5 hurricane is typically 18 feet above normal.
- Don't build on a ground level concrete pad, either use concrete piles or piers (not brick piers) or a concrete basement.
- If you build a basement, first drive piles deep enough that the house won't settle, then cast the basement walls & floor in a single pour.
... Most houses pour the walls first with footings at the bottom, then the floor is poured separately. This ensures the floor is not connected to the concrete walls. When the house settles the walls sink but the floor doesn't. This cracks the floor. Cracks let water in. Basement wall cracks are worse, when the ground is saturated and water is so deep it pools above ground even a couple inches, it can gush through wall cracks like an artesian well. To keep the basement dry even when the yard is flooded, the basement must be built like a concrete boat. That's why the single pour, and why you need good quality concrete. Ensure you get a concrete contractor who knows how to ensure it won't crack. If he says cracks are "normal" find someone else.
- Ensure the basement floor slopes down to a sump pit and install a sump pump with float switch. Any water that does get in will be pumped out.
- Use strong siding: brick, field stone, limestone, or stucco. We don't have cement siding up here but I'm told it resists hurricanes as well. Wood clapboards, vinyl or aluminum siding won't survive a hurricane.
- Quality framing: this web site says "Hip roofs that are attached to the walls via metal framing connectors which in turn connect to the actual foundation often are the structures that survive." I thought all wood houses were built like that. I even built garages with large bolts inserted into the cement foundation while it was still wet. When dry, holes drilled in the wall bottom plate (sole plate) with large washers and nuts firmly fasten the frame to foundation. Check it yourself while the frame is still exposed.
- 2x6 exterior walls: Unless your house uses a steel frame, exterior wall studs will be wood. Galvanized steel sheet wall studs can hold drywall but can't hold up the roof or second floor. 2"x6" wall studs require 24" centres, which means they're spaced 24" from the centre of one stud to the centre of the next. 2"x4" wall studs require 16" centres. That means the total amount of wood is exactly the same so no significant cost difference, but 2"x6" walls are much stronger. It also means you can fit more insulation in the walls. 2"x4" studs on 16" centres can be used for interior walls.
- Hurricane shutters or hurricane glass in all windows. Laminated glass will shatter but has a plastic membrane sandwiched between 2 layers of glass like a car windshield. If it's hit the glass fragments stay in place and debris that hit stays outside. To meet Miami-Dade certification it must endure a piece of lumber 2"x4" by 6 foot long hitting end-on at 34mph and still endure hurricane force wind (1,342 to 9,000 wind cycles) without an opening larger than 1/16" x 5". It must also endure 10 ball bearings at 50mph, then hurricane wind loading.
- Roofing: you can get shingles that are certified for 150mph wind (Class H). A category 5 hurricane has wind >155mph. Katrina was category 4 when it hit: wind speed 131-155mph. Actually Katrina was measured at 140mph. That means 120mph shingles (Class G) just don't cut it.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-09-09 00:31:46

Another interesting idea would be to somehow get Visa or Mastercard on board and come up with special 'emergency credit cards'
This has potential to be a fabulous method of distributing aid. High marks from me for this idea Treb. . .
With computers and the scanners, the card could be restricted to buying food, water and the like.
It has potential. It could be an efficient way to get subsistence to evacuees once they're sheltered in unaffected areas.
Katrina has done enormous damage to Louisiana's banking system, though. New Orleans, like Dallas, New York, and several other cities, housed more than its share of regional banking headquarters. Also, this would not work inside of a certain radius of ground zero - no phone lines = no debit cards.
But there's still enormous potential. I know 2000 people huddled on the floor of the Lake Charles Civic Center tonight who'd love to have something like that.

Katrina, official death toll in Mississippi stood at 196. Louisiana had the foresight to ask the president for a disaster declaration even before the hurricane hit ground. This was signed on August 27, at which time federal resources should have been deployed en masse. Why are the press being turned away and not allowed to take pictures of the dead?
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3341199
http://www.helenair.com/articles/2005/0 … 905_02.txt

Nearly 8,000 prisoners were transported out of New Orleans jails last week and moved to state prisons and jails in neighboring towns.
http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story. … e=9/8/2005
Katrina's searing images -- linking nature's wrath and the nation's wrongs -- have fanned the smoldering resentments of the civil rights, Reaganomics and hip-hop eras all at once. Once a Presidential Disaster Declaration has been made, the Federal Emergency Management Agency assumes the role of coordinating federal agency support to meet state requests for assistance.
KATRINA%20THE%20BLACK%20RESPONSE%20NY11709082031_TN.jpg
There's a wide assortment of pollutants in the water. The Environmental Protection Agency says it's water sampling shows that the flood waters are extremely polluted with bacteria, like E. coli and coliform. That's because there is a lot of raw sewage in the water.
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/09/06/ka … ssippi.ap/
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor … Id=4837926

New Orleans police backed by troops have begun to use force to remove people
As many as 10,000 people had refused to leave the city despite the mayor's compulsory evacuation order.
Many are now going voluntarily - but others are being handcuffed and taken to evacuation centres, officials say.

Others stayed at home because they were old and didn't have psychological resources or physical strength. Still others stayed because they would not leave a loved one who couldn't make the trip. stragglers seemed willing to flee the filthy water and stench of death Thursday as increasingly insistent rescuers made what may be their last peaceful pass through swamped New Orleans. The death toll from Hurricane Katrina's rampage along the Mississippi Gulf Coast has crept up to 151, a senior official said. Oil storage tanks ruptured by Hurricane Katrina may have dumped as much as 3.7m gallons of crude oil into the lower Mississippi river and surrounding wetlands.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4228400.stm

John Creighton · 2005-09-09 10:29:37

New Orleans police backed by troops have begun to use force to remove people
As many as 10,000 people had refused to leave the city despite the mayor's compulsory evacuation order.
Many are now going voluntarily - but others are being handcuffed and taken to evacuation centres, officials say.

Is this true. I heard on the news that they wern't forcing people to leave.

C M Edwards · 2005-09-09 10:33:44

Advice when moving to a city in a hurricane zone:
- First thing, look up city/county evacuation zones.
- Choose an apartment building outside the evacuation zone.

Those two statements are so contradictory, it's funny!

You do realize that your advice sums up to "Don't live anywhere in Louisiana south of I-10!" don't you? (Don't get me wrong - that's darn good advice!)

Oh, BTW, about the storm relief debit card idea, IMHO, it's a good idea. FEMA's screwed it up royally, though. After a nationwide announcement, they come back two days later to tell us that only a select few evacuees at the Astrodome will receive debit cards. For the rest, the check's in the mail.

The rest of their information distribution system seems karked up, too. Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is a conspiracy. FEMA appears incapable of keeping their story straight, and people are getting jerked around because of it. I'm still trying to withhold blame for the entire debacle until we actually have time to find out what went on. However, as someone who's job it is to help evacuees get accurate information, any reliance on FEMA for it is a major hindrance at this point. If FEMA issues a statement that the sky is blue when the clouds are clear, you'd better get it from a second source.

I have given a name to my pain, and that name is "FEMA".

(There. My liberal soul is assuaged. )

SpaceNut · 2005-09-09 10:40:21

The [url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9156612/]Mandatory evacuation order raises fears
As moment nears, New Orleans SWAT captain voices concerns[/url] With the sweep of this deluged city for the last voluntary evacuees nearly complete, authorities on Friday drew closer to the moment of evacuations by force.

This could get very ugly before it gets better...

Of course though the use of tools [url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9240563/]High-tech goes into action in disaster zone
Hardware and software makes life easier for rescuers and rescued[/url]

In many cases this is the only safe way to tell if there are survivers due to the conditions.

C M Edwards · 2005-09-09 10:46:31

New Orleans police backed by troops have begun to use force to remove people
As many as 10,000 people had refused to leave the city despite the mayor's compulsory evacuation order.
Many are now going voluntarily - but others are being handcuffed and taken to evacuation centres, officials say.
Is this true. I heard on the news that they wern't forcing people to leave.

Yes, it's true.

They were not initially forcing anyone to leave, but they are now. Enforcement is sporadic though, as most rescuers are still answering emergency calls. My guess is, it'll be at least a few more days before they have enough spare manpower to start ousting every last holdout.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-09 10:48:05

Thi probably will not help all that much but here is the info on the Fema web site which is up but who in that area has the ability to get the infomation that it contains?

Emergency Assistance Flowing to Gulf Coast

$460 million in expedited aid to individuals has been provided by the Department of Homeland Security’s Federal Emergency Management Agency in the 48 hours since the agency activated the expedited assistance program. More than 230,000 eligible households are receiving these payments of $2,000 to help pay for their emergency needs of food, shelter, clothing, personal necessities and medical needs.

Before you apply
• What types of aid are available?
• What information do I need to apply?

Apply by Phone:
Call 1-800-621-FEMA (3362)
Hearing or speech impaired?
Call 1-800-462-7585
OR
Apply Online:
Register for assistance online

John Creighton · 2005-09-09 10:51:52

New Orleans police backed by troops have begun to use force to remove people
As many as 10,000 people had refused to leave the city despite the mayor's compulsory evacuation order.
Many are now going voluntarily - but others are being handcuffed and taken to evacuation centres, officials say.
Is this true. I heard on the news that they wern't forcing people to leave.
Yes, it's true.
They were not initially forcing anyone to leave, but they are now. Enforcement is sporadic though, as most rescuers are still answering emergency calls. My guess is, it'll be at least a few more days before they have enough spare manpower to start ousting every last holdout.

Why force people to leave that are in a dry area and have enough probles. Is it an issue with dealing with human waste or something?

DonPanic · 2005-09-09 11:11:03

LO

Why force people to leave that are in a dry area and have enough probles. Is it an issue with dealing with human waste or something?

Make things more easy for policemen and soldiers : all left are LOOTERS they can shoot at

John Creighton · 2005-09-09 11:16:35

LO
Why force people to leave that are in a dry area and have enough probles. Is it an issue with dealing with human waste or something?
Make things more easy for policemen and soldiers : all left are LOOTERS they can shoot at

But they have the army in there. Can't they deal with the Looters now?

DonPanic · 2005-09-09 11:21:24

Government simulation predicted 61,290 deaths

But they have the army in there. Can't they deal with the Looters now?

Sorry, John, my answer wasn't to be treated seriously
More seriously, I think that as precise infrastructures repairs haven't already be planned and are disputed, meanwhile authorities have to show their are acting.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-09 12:31:55

A brave little soul that led others out of harm.
Survivor Story: 6-Year-Old Leads Five Toddlers, Baby To Safety

RobertDyck · 2005-09-09 13:57:56

Advice when moving to a city in a hurricane zone:
- First thing, look up city/county evacuation zones.
- Choose an apartment building outside the evacuation zone.
Those two statements are so contradictory, it's funny!
You do realize that your advice sums up to "Don't live anywhere in Louisiana south of I-10!" don't you? (Don't get me wrong - that's darn good advice!)

When I moved to Miami I did all that. My apartment building was less than 10 blocks outside the evacuation zone, but it was outside. I wanted a 3rd floor or higher apartment; I got one on the 9th floor. The parkade had tennis courts, basket ball court, and a running track around the perimeter of the roof. I always parked on the 3rd or 4th level (usually 3rd). I lived through hurricanes Floyd and Irene while I was there. Floyd turned so I was only in the edge, but Irene went right over my head. My girlfriend at the time got off work just as Irene reached the city. I told her to come straight to my apartment, it was much closer than her condo and her place was on a Key. She panicked and got lost beside the river, her car got some water in it, and I had to go find her. I waded hip deep in river water walking on the street while hurricane Irene was right on us. I eventually found her, she parked in a hospital parkade and I drove her in my car to my place. I know what it's like. But Miami is above sea level so the water subsided as soon as the hurricane passed.

I read a news article that stated a piece of land outside New Orleans just 5 feet above sea level either never flooded or had only minor flooding. That's where you want to build houses, not in the bowl. The French quarter is 5 feet above sea level and reports are minor damage from minor flooding. This map shows where low lying areas are. Dark orange areas are below sea level, don't build there. Light orange includes the French quarter so that must be 5 feet above sea level; some damage but not ideal. Yellow is high ground, that's where you want to build. It's mostly south of the Mississippi, which is south of I-10. So live in Jefferson county south of the river or Plaquemines around Lake Lery. According to MapBlast most of that land doesn't have streets. Great places to build new housing divisions.

C M Edwards · 2005-09-09 15:59:19

I was amused by the "Chose an apartment outside the evacuation zones" because it completely eliminates about 33% of my home state.

I read a news article that stated a piece of land outside New Orleans just 5 feet above sea level either never flooded or had only minor flooding. That's where you want to build houses, not in the bowl.

What you are suggesting is fine for one little house out in the woods, but could never work for an entire town.

To understand the trouble with expanding out into all those elevated areas with no roads, you have to understand that very few areas in New Orleans started out below sea level. The French Quarter is an accident of geology. Almost everything else that didn't flood was built on land that was settled less than 100 years ago.

New Orleans used to be elevated areas just like what you are talking about. Swamps were drained to expand New Orleans, but nobody drained a swamp to make the city in the first place. Much of the affected areas sank - they were not settled that way. Moving to new elevated areas and further disrupting the surrounding marshland with new (inevitable) levees will just make the hole bigger.[/i]

DonPanic · 2005-09-09 16:21:49

Big job for dutch engineers...

srmeaney · 2005-09-10 10:23:50

FEMA Chief dumped, Bush Administration terminates debit card funds for victims.
http://www.americatoday.net/e/?content= … viewFull=1

C M Edwards · 2005-09-10 11:25:49

Big job for dutch engineers...

I hear they're already hiring civil engineers to work in New Orleans!

srmeaney · 2005-09-10 23:07:07

"I hate the way they portray us in the media. If you see a black family, it says they're looting. See a white family, it says they're looking for food."
-Rapper Kanye West, deviating from the script during a live telethon for Hurricane Katrina victims.

Based on Kanyes assessment of "how it is", the final cleanout of New Orleans will involve instrutions to kill anyone who says "no". I do however doubt that that will include the execution of Journalists and their camera crews, as it has in Iraq, there just aint enough Reuters journalists to go around.

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