Katrina and New Orleans

Josh Cryer · 2005-09-07 08:52:06

I don't think any one group is responsible. I think that the levee was an ongoing problem for many years. Ray Nayun did what he could to get the "water problem" down. He was responsible for the new pumping stations that the city needed for years (and that many said weren't needed). Those pumps saved lives on the day the levee broke (countless, most likely), because it kept what would've been a flash flood and turned it into a slow inch every few minutes type flood.

This wasn't preventable, it required a lot of resources to get the city up to Norway-type flood standards. We're the US, we don't like spending money on stuff that "may or may not happen," it's sad, but true.

I think the group most responsible would be Homeland Security for merging FEMA and depreciating its ability to get things done. In a word, bureaucracy.

Cobra Commander · 2005-09-07 08:57:00

Cindy how could the state government have prevented it when the federal government wouldn't give them the needed funds?

If they required federal funds it still falls on the head of the State government. Priorities are needed, if a state blows all its tax revenue on social spending at the expense of more basic needs it can't realistically expect the Fed to bail them out.

The Governor, the Mayor, the Fed, everyone is to blame because they whole system has gotten so screwed up it no longer works as designed. That needs to be addressed.

Josh Cryer · 2005-09-07 09:12:32

No state has the money to for huge restructuring projects like this, they barely get by taking care of other essential things like school budgeting, and civil services like fire departments and police.

This was simply something that was seen as "not necessary" because nothing had happened in so long. The federal goverment is ultimately responsible for not looking at the situation and saying "WTF, this needs to be addressed NOW."

The mayor took care of what he could take care of. He did with what he had the best anyone could've hoped for. I lived in New Orleans for several years, and the whole time I was there he was trying to get those pumping stations. That's something they could afford. Bureaucracy doesn't just cow tail and disappear. As a politican, for critical issues, you gotta work around it.

SpaceNut · 2005-09-07 09:29:19

Now onto the reality of forced evacuation for thoses that did tough it out and survived.
New Orleans mayor orders forced evacuations Pumping makes progress, but the effort will also expose the grim reality

the mayor had a blunt new warning: Get out now — or risk being taken out by force.
As floodwaters began to slowly recede with the city’s first pumps returning to operation, Mayor Ray Nagin authorized law enforcement officers and the U.S. military to force the evacuation of all residents who refuse to heed orders to leave.

Even long after the water is gone the process of clean up will linger on for years to decades due to the pesticides or poisons, petroleum products and so much more...

I hope those forces that are in the area are treating this like it is a hazard unlike what I saw after 9/11 when few used precausion.

Palomar · 2005-09-07 09:49:53

NO environmental crisis "Unimaginable"

Officials warned some districts would be without drinking water for years

railway cars and trucks are turning into environmental timebombs all over the city, and slowly draining floodwaters are leaving a gruesome sludge everywhere

Scientists are already grappling with the staggering implications of the never-before-seen scenario of almost an entire city being engulfed by floods and between 60 million and 90 million tonnes of solid waste -- defined as wrecked homes, cars, metals...

::shakes head::

One reporter was wading through what used to be the parking lot of City Hall on Monday, IIRC. He had on wading boots and mentioned a worker who'd had regular boots on and now is suffering from chemical burns from wading in knee-high water. The reporter continued walking slowly...wouldn't get me to do that regardless; a simple stumble or trip and into the water he'd have gone.

--Cindy

C M Edwards · 2005-09-07 10:21:35

If they required federal funds it still falls on the head of the State government. ...
The Governor, the Mayor, the Fed, everyone is to blame because they whole system has gotten so screwed up it no longer works as designed. That needs to be addressed.

Agreed.

Mundaka · 2005-09-07 10:46:12

BWhite · 2005-09-07 11:43:49

FEMA's incompetence must be part of a plan to abolish FEMA.

As for Cobra's suggestion about spending state/local money: "Dude you are one of the 'thems' not of of the 'us" is the eyes of our current power brokers"

An Imperial Presidency divested from the responsibility to solve problems? Why is that good for anyone?

Cobra Commander · 2005-09-07 12:03:17

As for Cobra's suggestion about spending state/local money: "Dude you are one of the 'thems' not of of the 'us" is the eyes of our current power brokers"

I'm always firmly in the "them" camp, whoever's in power. Put some partisan monkeys together, make them fight, take over after they exhaust each other.

One of us, one of us, one of us. . . :twisted:

An Imperial Presidency divested from the responsibility to solve problems? Why is that good for anyone?

A Presidency divested of the responsibilites it is constitutionally granted would be a problem, a Presidency divested of powers and responsibilities it should never have assumed in the first place, quite another matter.

Unfortunately a great many Americans today believe in the depths of their souls that for any problem, government is the answer. They will ruin us.

The list of federal powers is short and specific. Providing taxpayer funds to states to levee-up ill-placed cities is not on the list.

Palomar · 2005-09-07 12:16:47

*Clinton didn't take any steps to better secure/safeguard New Orleans and its levee system during his 8 years in Office.

This isn't a Dem/Rep matter IMO.

But then some folks here are insisting this wasn't a matter for the Federal Gov't to deal with for starters.

Evacuees have been given 2K debit (or credit?) cards for purchase of clothing and necessities. Considering all the strangers crowded together in shelters and etc., I sure hope they proactively disallow purchases of liquor, beer, etc. My sister mentioned a murder occurring in one of the shelters the other day...the last thing they need are drunken brawls and intoxicated people slugging it out amidst crying babies, frightened toddlers and frail elderly folks.

--Cindy

DonPanic · 2005-09-07 12:33:51

Unfortunately a great many Americans today believe in the depths of their souls that for any problem, government is the answer. They will ruin us.

Not any problem, but what did destroy New Orleans as well as what destroyed the Twins where under government responsability. That shouldn't have happened.
Saying that levees should have been under own individual responsability is another "bêtise".
Saying this is cold condemnation to death for the weaks.

The list of federal powers is short and specific. Providing taxpayer funds to states to levee-up ill-placed cities is not on the list.

Are you a United States Of America citizen, or do you intend to treat New Orleans as a foreign country and its residents just as iraq insurgents ?

Did you really understand what means "United States of America ?

DonPanic · 2005-09-07 12:41:07

I say this because, as far as I know, "united" means we act toghether to help one in danger

The list of federal powers is short and specific. Providing taxpayer funds to states to levee-up ill-placed cities is not on the list.

You don't share the safe levees cost
Bright strategy
But now you share the disaster cost
CC, you are a genious !

Palomar · 2005-09-07 12:53:12

The list of federal powers is short and specific. Providing taxpayer funds to states to levee-up ill-placed cities is not on the list.
Are you a United States Of America citizen, or do you intend to treat New Orleans as a foreign country and its residents just as iraq insurgents ?
Did you really understand what means "United States of America ?

*Someone else can explain this better than me, I'm sure. DonPanic, the Federal Gov't has powers and rights separate from State Gov't and vice versa.

Yes, it is the United States of America...but if I move to Wyoming I still have to apply for (and purchase) a driver's license for Wyoming. Laws vary from State to State regarding many things; also, States rights have been guaranteed so as to limit the power of the Federal Gov't and disallow it from becoming tyrannical.

Some matters the Fed can and should handle, some it is not allowed to.

Others here can more effectively delineate this.

or do you intend to treat New Orleans as a foreign country and its residents just as iraq insurgents ?

You're being too harsh. That isn't Cobra's attitude, IMO.

--Cindy

C M Edwards · 2005-09-07 13:30:31

I no longer care where the money comes from, as long as it comes.

The Clinton administration did do a few things about Louisiana's levee problem, just not enough. NOBODY DID ENOUGH, but believe it or not, Clinton did more than most. So did Bush. When just how much they did comes to light, you will see how truly pathetic that statement is.

And yes, in the end, Louisiana's levee problems were Louisiana's responsibility, no matter where the money was coming from. We didn't do enough, either.

The current situation is a logistical nightmare. Even now, all of the support being promised - even announced - isn't on the scene in Louisiana. Part of that is incompetence, and part is just the nature of organizing an operation this big when all you have is one or two roundabout land routes. Nobody is being teleported in or out of the New Orleans area. Star Trek couldn't get rescue teams in fast enough.

I'm just grateful we're finally getting organized in spite of the screwups.

Cobra Commander · 2005-09-07 13:31:39

Not any problem, but what did destroy New Orleans as well as what destroyed the Twins where under government responsability.

In The US "government responsibility" can mean many things. Federal, state, county, city/local; all these levels of government have specific areas of jurisdiction and responsibility. From a legal perspective the federal government taking control of the New Orleans levees would be as out of place as the Mayor of New York negotiating arms treaties with the Chinese. There are sovereignty issues that need to be respected, jurisdictional lines that create great difficulty when crossed.

So before Katrina, maintaining the levees was a state and local government responsibility. Some federal dollars are used on such things, largely due to various levels of government selectively usurping or declining certain tasks. The state and local governments put other priorities ahead of flood defenses.

Even after the hurricane, it still isn't a federal responsibility in most respects. The military forces in place are National Guard troops, essentially state troops under the authority of their respective Governors. Even FEMA, the federal agency charged with disaster management, has limited authority and capability. They are not meant to be first responders, FEMA is not supposed to be on-site when the first crack appears in a levee.

The federal government will be appropriating funds for relief and reconstruction, but even this it does largely outside of its constitutional mandate.

But don't take my word for it, this has been covered by people with far more authority on the matter of Constitutional intent than I.

"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents"

James Madison.

"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."

Thomas Jefferson.

The Founders were clear on the matter, these two statements are but a sampling.

You don't share the safe levees cost
Bright strategy
But now you share the disaster cost
CC, you are a genious !

I think you miss the underlying point here. State and local governments blew it and mismanaged what they had. Go back as far as one likes, from not forcibly evacuating days before the hurricane all the way back to the first French settlers building a city below sea level, the crux of the problem is local. The Feds have to foot the bill now largely because of previous mismanagement.

But none of that matters now. Things are being taken care of as well as can be expected given the present circumstances and further bickering of primary blame is pointless. A more productive course would be to correct the things that are wrong so that next time we're better able to handle it. Dumping everything onto the federal government isn't the answer.

or do you intend to treat New Orleans as a foreign country and its residents just as iraq insurgents ?

I intend that the residents be treated as Americans who have just had their city destroyed. American citizens in unfortunate circumstances, not helpless victims, dim-witted pets or so many head of federal chattel. No hand-wringing, no passing out a trillion dollars worth of free credit cards to them, no turning their plight into a political hammer against the Administration.

But for the few that actively engage in violence, do what must be done. For the rapists and murderers, shoot them. Order must be imposed, from that all else follows.

That old responsibility thing again.

DonPanic · 2005-09-07 13:40:58

You're being too harsh. That isn't Cobra's attitude, IMO.
--Cindy

Ok, I apologize

Why would it be more difficult to provide protection to people than to send army restore law and order ?

may be I'm harsh because I was aware of the lethal danger, though living 3000 miles from new Orleans, read it years ago, why not many in US administration ?

Posté le: Mar 30 Aoû 2005 21 : 17
Salut
Faut savoir que Nouvelle Orléans est en partie construite en desssous du niveau de la mer, à l'abri de digues de 5m au dessus du niveau de la mer, que la dépression de l'ouragan peut éléver le niveau de l'eau de plus de 4m, alors des vagues de plusieurs m de la tempête peuvent inonder les rues.
Vaut mieux se barrer de là vite fait
Tue August 30, 9:17pm
LO
One must know that New Orleans is partly built under sea level, sheltered by 5 meters high levees, that the hurricane depression can rise sea level up to for meters, then many high tempest waves may flood streets.
better run outta this and quick

Posted it in a french forum just before reading press awfull news.

Grypd · 2005-09-07 13:51:36

On this side of the pond and with the Mayors order to evacuate everybody it leaves us the question what will the USA do with a badly damaged city with a lot of buildings needing to be torn down and replaced.

Why

The reality of floods are that the water is a disgusting mixture of everything from sewer water to gasoline to all the biological and chemical contaminants that the water covers. This will now be embedded into the woodwork of any building and to be coating any spaces inside those buildings. This in effect means that people cannot stay in those buildings until they are completely decontaminated, effected woodwork and plaster replaced and the all electrical wiring and water systems done too.

New Orleans is a city where the choice is A) abandon the city and leave it fenced of or B) Flatten a large part of it and rebuild and keep the buildings that are truly important the rest take the cheapest and best option. The bulldozer and entire new piping and electrical infrastructure.

Can the USA afford to rebuild a whole city - Doubtful will almost certainly require Trillions of investment. Many of the worst hit areas ie the poor areas had no insurance. Certainly whatever happens this will be the single biggest insurance payout ever and is likely to bankrupt companies heavily involved. There is also the possibility that the energy and drive to rebuild such a city and make it safe may spur the USA economy and actually bring some good.

Is rebuilding New Orleans a good idea - New Orleans was allways at threat from the changes in climate and increased storms. Rebuild New Orleans and you may well have to do it again and again. Then again there is nothing to stop New Orleans being built a bit further inland and a lot more impressive defences be built at the same time as the city is being rebuilt.

What is to happen to the people - Many will move away from the city though a lot will wish to return. But for a long time the city that was New Orleans and its culture will not exist.

DonPanic · 2005-09-07 14:18:36

Is rebuilding New Orleans a good idea - New Orleans was allways at threat from the changes in climate and increased storms. Rebuild New Orleans and you may well have to do it again and again.

Except for under sea level zones, New Orleans is not the only southern coast place threatened by hurricanes.
Whith all poors evacuated, so little of them getting few nuts in exchange of their property bills on wrecks, New Orleans rebuilt by and for rich people will have all means to be hurricaneproof built :shock:

Palomar · 2005-09-07 14:33:44

Cobra Commander wrote:

no passing out a trillion dollars worth of free credit cards to them

*Why not the 2K credit to each adult evacuee? Just wondering.

I don't have a problem with it, so long as what they can purchase is clearly defined (no booze, cigarettes, porn magazines, etc.): Clothing, toiletries, laundry detergent, aspirin, ibuprofen, soap/shampoo, baby food/diapers, etc.

Again, guidelines on what's purchasable and certain stores approved only (no spree shopping at Dillard's for instance) made clear and with certain built-in controls could eliminate abuse. And if they blow the 2K regardless (bypassing rules somehow)...they're out.

--Cindy

C M Edwards · 2005-09-07 16:01:50

Grypd,

New Orleans will almost certainly be rebuilt. The city is not a total loss, even if every flooded area has to be raized to the ground - which they don't. Also, although the contamination is bad (there are places in the flood where one can reportedly get mild chemical burns just from standing in it), that can often be dealt with without total demolition.

As bad as it is, this is not Louisiana's first flood of this scale. There were people who were willing to return to their old homes then, and there are people willing to do it now.

Don't underestimate our ability to build it better, either. Stronger levees, of course, but other measures are possible, too. When the city of Galveston was nearly levelled by a hurricane in 1906, they plowed under the rubble and raised the entire city. Los Angeles and Chicago have extensive raised sections, as well, though with less rubble. The general engineering is well understood. New Orleans can do it, too.

It's not going to be possible to simply move north to higher ground. Lake Pontchartrain is New Orleans' northern border. But its southern expanse extends out into the coastal wetlands.

Those wetlands once protected New Orleans from hurricanes, too, not just levees. They're dying away and sinking into the Gulf because the Mississippi's floodplain has been so restricted that it can no longer deposit new soil in the coastal marshes. The organic matter in the soil - one step removed from peat - rots away. The land is literally sinking. In fifty years, New Orleans is going to be a coastal city. But there is a way to fix that. The Mississippi river doesn't need levees to remain navigable, just weirs. Experience with the Atchafalya River suggests that removing the river bank levees south of New Orleans could start rebuilding those marshes in a decade, giving New Orleans protection to the south again.

It would involve relocating half of the 30000 or so people who live and work south of New Orleans, but frankly, Katrina has already run them out. Many towns south of New Orleans simply no longer exist except as marks on a map, and the rest won't be there in a century anyway unless the land they stand on can be saved.

None of this would be easy. But it can be done.

srmeaney · 2005-09-07 18:43:20

Dont get mad, Get even

Run For Government and destroy all the scum responsible. As a matter of fact, this complaint topic is off limits to any of you who are capable of running for Governor, Senator, President do so!

Mundaka · 2005-09-07 18:54:49

srmeaney · 2005-09-07 18:57:26

Besides, the complete demolition and redesign of New Orleans is ideal. Jobs for a million people in rebuilding something that has canals like venice and gondolas, will restrict criminal activity is a way you cant imagine. New Sea walls reclaiming land a hundred kilometres out from the coast, will increase the territorial claims of Louisiana. They could make New Orleans the most technologically advanced, most crime free city in the world. Twice the size of the old one. No Roads, just canals and very advanced buildings with the best fire control systems in the world.

Just make sure the waterways have a polution free ecosystem with turtles and fish, waterplants, reeds-to put oxygen into the water. If they dont want to take a gondola, walk via a network of interconnecting bridges where all the shops, and non residential stuff is spread amongst the buildings like a giant mall.

Build a new airport out on pylons on the swamp...The NewOrleans Metroplex would be new capital of America...

srmeaney · 2005-09-07 20:06:14

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=3987

Just get mad. Get very very mad.

DonPanic · 2005-09-08 04:12:03

LO

DonPanic, you are being unfair: Several years ago there was a heat wave in Paris and thousands of the old and sick died because the French government failed to attend to their needs.

The french government had a worse lack of reaction with our Big Seniors Heathwave Hecatomb than thze US one for Katrina, as it took two weeks before it reacted to the eldest senors mass dying firemen and hospitals doctors reports. French prime lost all kind of an authority in french opinion, and never regained any trust anymore.

My first thought upon hearing of the incident was, "Where were the families of those who died? How could they have entrusted the health and well being of their loved ones to an uncaring government burocracy?" (Of course, I had the good manners to keep my mouth shut until you popped off with the latest hysteroid hypocracy from Gall -- er, make that Gaul.)

Do you all live with granDad and grandMa in USA ?
If they do'nt live next door but on their own, can they warn you they're thirst and heath dying, when they are not even conscious it's happening ?
There's a typical french phenomenon wich are "hollidays" About 60% froggies are in hollidays at the same time july 15 to august 15. During this, the country activity is half at sleep. Hospitals work with less than 50% crews. It's not in hospitals (where dying seniors where transported to) or in retiring institutions that number of victim was high, but among eldest people living on their own.
But nobody ever predicted that such a strong and long heathwave would strike France unlike
predictable hurricanes over New Orleans.

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