Katrina and New Orleans

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-09-01 22:12:39

This is all very interesting but can we have some more numbers. 1-2 degrees over 50 years? 50 years is a very long time. And what is an alarming rate for icecap melting? How do we quantify that. P.S. I often wondered how they measure global temperatures. Does anyone know?

I'm not sure of the details, but no doubt this recent surge in forest fires from Europe and Hurricane activity will open up the debate again. Qualitative indicators like sea ice coverage, spring thaw dates, and melting permafrost provide strong additional evidence that trends have been positive at middle and high northern latitudes, while glacier retreat suggests warming aloft at lower latitudes. NOAA had already predicted above normal 2005 Atlantic hurricane season, the latest report is that a complete evacuation of New Orleans has been ordered. Plans are to air drop sand bags into at least one of the levy breaches, and open a breach at another location in hopes it will help the flood waters drain. Virginia Burkett, directors of the Louisiana State University, Ivor van Heerden, Chris Mooney, and the US army Stephen Leatherman made many reports on the risks to New Orleans. Leaders should have the possiblity of a real chance their city being totally destroyed tomorrow very serious. Congress in recent years have repeatedly cut funding for hurricane preparation and flood control. Because of the budget cuts, which were caused in part by the rising costs of the war in Iraq, the corps delayed seven contracts that included enlarging the levees, according to corps documents. Apparently, the levee that broke (and is causing the subsequant deluge that is still flooding in) was only designed to withstand a Catagory 3 hurricane.

A number of meteorologists believe that there is not a link between gobal warming and storms, there has also been a recent model study on how the storm statistics can be affected by a global warming. There would be more power or intenisty given to the Tropical cyclone-TC or Hurricane and a likely consequence of a future warming is an upward trend in the destructive potential of TCs. A Catagory 5 protection could've been built, but it was deemed not "economically feasable" according to the study that was done locally when they were designing/upgrading the damn thing. So..now they've got flooding, bodies floating in the water, people cut off from rescue, looting, rescue people being shot at by snipers, ...the horror. Even though Hurricane Katrina has moved well north of the city, the waters may still keep rising in New Orleans. Other parts of the nation were also badly hit, building collapse was in Biloxi Miss. They expect to find more bodies though. CNN says that 80% of New Orleans is underwater. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane- and flood-control dollars. Newhouse News Service, in an article posted late Tuesday night at The Times-Picayune Web site, reported: "No one can say they didn't see it coming. ... Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious questions are being asked about the lack of preparation." New Orleans descended into anarchy as corpses lay abandoned in street medians, fights and fires broke out and storm survivors battled for seats on the buses that would carry them away from the chaos. An old man in a chaise lounge lay dead in a grassy median as hungry babies wailed around him. Around the corner, an elderly woman lay dead in her wheelchair, covered up by a blanket, and another body lay beside her wrapped in a sheet. In Mississippi, curfews are in place in the hard-hit towns of Biloxi and Gulfport as the authorities try to prevent the scale of looting seen in New Orleans. New Orleans' extensive levee system was built to withstand a strong category three storm. When Katrina appeared on the weather maps it was a category five - the strongest Atlantic hurricane in a generation.

Robert M. Blevins · 2005-09-01 23:05:09

If you really want to research global warming effectively, then search out through the National Geographic Society. They've been studying it around the world for twenty-five years. In one of their issues (can't remember exactly which one, but it was in the last twelve months) they dedicated half the mag that month to the subject.

One of the things most scientists did not catch on to about global warming was that as the warming increased, the rate that the globe is actually warming has increased exponentially.
You can visualize it as a small circle, slowly expanding. As the circle grows, the rate of growth also continues to increase. The Geo was the first to realize this fact.

Forget about the numbers for a moment. Consider this...In the area where you personally live, have you begun to notice dramatic changes in the climate? I have. I live in the Seattle area, and I have been here since 1966. The summers are hotter, the winters warmer and wetter and shorter. Last year, my wife and I observed geese heading NORTH three days before Christmas.

The actual rate of warming is increasing each year. Clear back in 1992, the Geographic announced that in the approximately 150 years that reliable weather records have been kept, eight out of the ten hottest years on record, worldwide, had come since 1980. Remember, this was back in 1992. Scientists mostly dismissed this as baloney, but they aren't laughing now...

It's not about thirty, forty, fifty years. Serious changes are occuring now, and the storms will increase next year, and the year after. The ice caps will melt.

Large areas of permafrost in Siberia and Canada are turning to mush in summer.
Glaciers are retreating everywhere at alarming rates.
Three years ago, a team of scientists at the North Pole checked their GPS three times to make sure they were actually AT the pole. Why? They saw a one-acre patch of open water, which disappeared by the next day. They took video, it appeared on the PBS.

It just goes on...it is not going to get better.
I wish I had better news, but I don't. I think the Geographic is correct. They have been studying the Earth for over a hundred years, and have tons of research to back up their claims. They are not gov't funded.

Robert M. Blevins www.freewebs.com/adventurebooks

Be afraid...be very afraid.

Cobra Commander · 2005-09-02 05:19:58

I've been reading reports from New Orleans, blogs and news. Seen more pictures. This is completely insane. It's time to quit treating this like a rescue effort and occupy the city. Enact martial law and start executing anyone that doesn't fall in line. Steal food, executed. Rape, executed. Attack relief workers, executed. None of this "aiding the civil power" nonsense, treating this as a mere crime wave is not gonna cut it.

If we're going to help the people that have remained civilized we're going to have to crush those that have turned to barbarism.

Palomar · 2005-09-02 05:29:30

I've been reading reports from New Orleans, blogs and news. Seen more pictures. This is completely insane. It's time to quit treating this like a rescue effort and occupy the city. Enact martial law and start executing anyone that doesn't fall in line.

*I agree. Drastic times call for drastic measures. Bill O'Reilly (haven't watched him in a long time, but did last night) was grilling LA officials last evening, wanting to know why martial law hasn't been put into effect.

There are a lot of good, innocent people being ravaged by brutes and thugs in a dire situation they cannot escape from. Yesterday's reports of people shooting at relief/rescue helicopters was incomprehensible to me. It's enough that people are suffering...but to willfully and maliciously act in a manner which only worsens the misery; it's atrocious and absolutely unconscionable. Elderly people, tiny babies, very ill folks suffering on hospital rooftops waiting for helicopters which are afraid to try and land for fear of being shot at by criminals, one poor diabetic lady hadn't had an insulin shot in 3 days -- she collapsed as the cameras were rolling. And meanwhile criminals are taking absolute advantage, holding these people hostage and attacking them. The hospitals which are managing to operate (barely) are being guarded by armed National Guardsmen (?) to prevent looters from entering and attacking.

Horrible, desperate situation. Yes, extreme measures are warranted IMO, to deal with and stop the criminals from further victimizing the victims.

--Cindy

P.S.: The nurses and physicians in the hospitals are falling sick as well; the water is contaminated and they're exhausted, etc. Then there are ICU patients, people just out of surgery when Katrina hit, people who needed surgery and likely those procedures have been postponed and who knows how they're suffering...

Cobra Commander · 2005-09-02 06:01:37

What's worse, the New Orleans Police Department has for some time been recognized as one of if not the most corrupt departments in the nation. By some reports a third of the force has already deserted to protect their own families. They're probably the respectable ones. Lots of looting by police going on it seems.

In any case, the local cops aren't a reliable element in restoring order. At best they are hopelessly under-manned and under-equipped, at worst they're part of the problem.

Palomar · 2005-09-02 06:12:22

What's worse, the New Orleans Police Department has for some time been recognized as one of if not the most corrupt departments in the nation. By some reports a third of the force has already deserted to protect their own families. They're probably the respectable ones. Lots of looting by police going on it seems.
In any case, the local cops aren't a reliable element in restoring order. At best they are hopelessly under-manned and under-equipped, at worst they're part of the problem.

:shock: Oh my god.

Yeah, now I vaguely recall hearing reports (long ago, infrequently) about New Orleans police corruption as being especially bad.

And private homes are being set on fire as well. That's been another major trouble: Malicious acts of arson.

It's frightening at how swiftly chaos bursts in when whatever level of order there's been is removed. I feel VERY sorry for every good, law-abiding person caught up in that hideous nightmare.

--Cindy

srmeaney · 2005-09-02 06:26:44

I see they rate the superdome as an A grade Prison Camp...

SpaceNut · 2005-09-02 07:40:49

World Extends Its Hand As Bush Says US Welcomes Aid Offers

This is probably the first time I have heard of help from other nations. This is a good thing from all those nations offering to assist.

We need to say thank you in a big way for this help...

Palomar · 2005-09-02 07:55:35

*More bad news -- as if there isn't enough already.

Depot Explodes Over Lawless New Orleans
AP - 25 minutes ago
NEW ORLEANS - An explosion at a chemical depot jolted residents awake early Friday, illuminating the pre-dawn sky with red and orange flames over a city awash in corpses and under siege from looters. There were no immediate reports of injuries. Vibrations from the blast along the Mississippi River and a few miles east of the French Quarter were felt all the way downtown. A series of smaller blasts followed and then a pillar of acrid, black smoke.

The full article

city officials were seething with anger over what they called a slow federal response to a disaster that may have killed thousands.
"They don't have a clue what's going on down there," Mayor Ray Nagin told WWL-AM Thursday night. "They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of goddamn — excuse my French everybody in America, but I am pissed."

::shakes head:: My god.

Who is ultimately to be held accountable for this? State officials?

--Cindy

DonPanic · 2005-09-02 08:03:49

This is all very interesting but can we have some more numbers. 1-2 degrees over 50 years? 50 years is a very long time. And what is an alarming rate for icecap melting? How do we quantify that. P.S. I often wondered how they measure global temperatures. Does anyone know?

By collecting world over meteo stations data, infrared earthsurvey satellite data, plus studies in situ.
http://www.wmo.ch/index-en.html

Actually this is a bad example. The sun will put out more and more heat as it makes its transition into a red giant eventually engulfing the earth in flames. So in the long term there is not a thing we can do about global warming.

I know that, but some centuries are not, astronomically speaking, what we can call long term in regard of billionth of years, and actually, accelatered rise of human activity heath sources and greenhouse gaz is something we should be abble to do something about.

None of which logically leads to the conclusion that human activity is the direct cause

Maybe not THE direct cause, but A powerful direct cause. Scientists can collect datas and calculate how much thermic energy and amounts of greenhouse effects gaz are dissipated by human activities, and how much temperature elevation should rise from all that.

The world has always had climate shifts, even in the very brief flash that is human history things have changed dramatically. We're coming off the tail end of a small ice age, of course it's going to get warmer. If it is the result of the natural climate shifts that have occured for as long as the Earth has existed there's nothing we can do about it.

"there's nothing we can do about it." Bright stragegy !
Personally, as a free-lance, I wouldn't give any trust to a commander wich doesn't prepare troops to any potential threat. I shall not kneel with him praying for "self-regulations" to occur.

This is completely insane. It's time to quit treating this like a rescue effort and occupy the city.

Don't forget palms, tubas and equipment for water and mudproof transportation systems
Enact martial law
Every people with no electricity, TV, radio, will be ease to know that when impossible so spread news...

and start executing anyone that doesn't fall in line. Steal food, executed. Rape, executed. Attack relief workers, executed. None of this "aiding the civil power" nonsense, treating this as a mere crime wave is not gonna cut it.
If we're going to help the people that have remained civilized we're going to have to crush those that have turned to barbarism.

Executing people... You're so fast "quitting rescue effort" and calling for sentences of death, wonder where's your sense of civilization.
How many starving people looting for some food and water to shoot at when main emergency is food and water and medic supply ?

Cobra Commander · 2005-09-02 08:21:56

Maybe not THE direct cause, but A powerful direct cause.

A contributing factor almost certainly, how can 6 billion animals not have an effect. Anything more is pure speculation. Every time I turn around the theories change as new data turns up. Pollution causes global warming, no wait, pollution is slowing global warming.

Fact is we just don't know enough to sit here and make absolute statements about an immensely complex system from a human-centric standpoint.

"there's nothing we can do about it." Bright stragegy !
Personally, as a free-lance, I wouldn't give any trust to a commander wich doesn't prepare troops to any potential threat. I shall not kneel with him praying for "self-regulations" to occur.

The converse of that is this: I wouldn't put much faith in a commander who maintains that we can avert the inevitable at the expense of preparing for what's coming. "Don't worry about the perimeter defenses, the negotions will avert a war."

I'm all for cutting pollution, I'm just not going to get into a frothing panic about it. We're not all going to die if the average global temperature increases by 1 degree over the next century, and that projection is based on theories based on an incomplete understanding of the system.

Better to prepare for the climatic conditions we expect than to pretend we can stop bad weather by driving electric cars.

Executing people... You're so fast "quitting rescue effort" and calling for sentences of death, wonder where's your sense of civilization.
How many starving people looting for some food and water to shoot at when main emergency is food and water and medic supply ?

There are violent gangs taking over the streets. Murders and rapes are rampant. My sense of civilization demands that steps be taken to stop the barbarism.

Know who's shooting at relief helicopters? Those same criminal gangs. Know why? Because they don't want relief to get too far because they rule the streets. If some thugs have to get shot before the decent people can receive help, so be it.

Palomar · 2005-09-02 08:44:48

*Houston Astrodome ALREADY full!

People are now being turned away into an auxiliary building. Astrodome was supposed to shelter 25,000 but they're already finding that facility "tightly packed" at aprox 11,325 persons...apparently more people are considered unsafe. Buses being turned back...this must be absolutely intolerable. I cannot imagine going through this ordeal.

Baton Rouge has a facility or two accepting refugees, but of course that's no help to the folks in Houston. Maybe Dallas/Ft. Worth stadium (don't know its name, not into sports) next?

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-09-02 08:49:32

Time to start making tent villages in as many open areas that can be made.

DonPanic · 2005-09-02 09:38:06

Fact is we just don't know enough to sit here and make absolute statements about an immensely complex system from a human-centric standpoint.
I'm all for cutting pollution, I'm just not going to get into a frothing panic about it. We're not all going to die if the average global temperature increases by 1 degree over the next century, and that projection is based on theories based on an incomplete understanding of the system.
I guess such kind of people arguing "frothing panic" didn't take necessary decision to better protect US southern coastal states populations against hurricanes...

You call "frothing panic" calm warnings and when number of countries agree on little efforts on human pollution cuttings, and you seem to support an administration which reluctance on these efforts is strong.
Illogical with "I'm all for cutting pollution"

Better to prepare for the climatic conditions we expect than to pretend we can stop bad weather by driving electric cars.

Why not ? Do you even notice that London has no more smogs ? Why ? Just eliminating coal industries.
In Paris and main world big cities, "good" weather has become synonym for ozon pollution, that would be eliminated with electric cars.

Executing people... You're so fast "quitting rescue effort" and calling for sentences of death, wonder where's your sense of civilization.
How many starving people looting for some food and water to shoot at when main emergency is food and water and medic supply ?
There are violent gangs taking over the streets. Murders and rapes are rampant. My sense of civilization demands that steps be taken to stop the barbarism.
Know who's shooting at relief helicopters? Those same criminal gangs. Know why? Because they don't want relief to get too far because they rule the streets. If some thugs have to get shot before the decent people can receive help, so be it.

It's matter of time, you can't wait the city is safe from criminals, rescuing people is the first emergency, then help them to act as some kind of rebuilding army.
Gang actions are very shocking, but they are a detail about some few hundreds bad guys on which medias and warmonger minded people rush over.

Palomar · 2005-09-02 10:06:31

It's matter of time, you can't wait the city is safe from criminals, rescuing people is the first emergency

*How can people be rescued when thugs and looters are shooting at rescue helicopters? There are many hurricane victims who are being held hostage by criminals who have proven they will shoot at attempted rescuers.

Rescue helicopters have already been shot at! More than once.

You can't rescue victims being held hostage by crooks unless the crooks are met with force. Any criminal greedy and ugly enough to take advantage of an already desperate situation probably isn't the sort of person who can be reasoned with.

The decent, good people being victimized by criminals are the first priorty. Their safety and security -must- be regained.

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-09-02 10:58:04

Levee and areas under water as many are still stranded.

With Bush visit Vast military convoy enters New Orleans with Supplies to arrive ahead, as refugees were losing hope

While this is a good start it however is a bad political ploy. booo ....

John Creighton · 2005-09-02 14:30:50

Better to prepare for the climatic conditions we expect than to pretend we can stop bad weather by driving electric cars.
Why not ? Do you even notice that London has no more smogs ? Why ? Just eliminating coal industries.
In Paris and main world big cities, "good" weather has become synonym for ozon pollution, that would be eliminated with electric cars.

I think it is a matter of economics if we could enough for us to make that determination. determine the cost of the damage that is attributed to fossil fuels as a result of natural disasters and tax those industries enough to pay for the damage they caused then the most economically viable solution would sort its self out. The only problem is the science is far from good enough to set those rates. Also people would kick and scream about the higher fuel prices. Here is an idea. Live closer to the city and walk or take the subway.

C M Edwards · 2005-09-02 16:07:21

*sigh* Calls to occupy New Orleans. With in excess of 7000 troops, 1500 armed police (not just NOPD, but volunteers from every town for two hundred miles in any direction), armed APC's, "shoot to kill" orders, and the biggest citizen rescue effort since Dunkirk, exactly what do people think is going on over there? Calls to occupy New Orleans?

TOO F***ING LATE! WE'RE ALREADY THERE! The campaign just isn't proceeding as gloriously as some armchair generals might desire.

The next 10000 troops will be arriving over the weekend. They will be coming almost exclusively from out of state, and - in spite of the fact that it took the rest of the country four whole days to realize that Louisiana's National Guard was completely overwhelmed - I for one am glad for the help. Hopefully, they will bring food, water, and medical supplies.

However, it is not logistically possible for a force that small to bring enough boats and trucks all by themselves to accomplish the necessary total evacuation in the time required and still retain the troop densities required for martial law. That's entirely in the hands of civilian relief agencies.

Meanwhile, back on the "homefront", every major city in Louisiana is currently attempting to absorb an overnight 10% increase in its population. Baton Rouge has effectively doubled in size. Food and supplies for these folks is becoming difficult to obtain as well - most normal supply routes in the southeast corner of the state pass(ed) through New Orleans. There is some doubt as to whether Baton Rouge and Monroe can hold out for the next three months.

The major supply lines were cut and the reinforcements were four days late. What else could one expect except what is happening?

srmeaney · 2005-09-02 18:29:54

city officials were seething with anger over what they called a slow federal response to a disaster that may have killed thousands.
"They don't have a clue what's going on down there," Mayor Ray Nagin told WWL-AM Thursday night. "They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of goddamn — excuse my French everybody in America, but I am pissed."
Quote:
city officials were seething with anger over what they called a slow federal response to a disaster that may have killed thousands.
"They don't have a clue what's going on down there," Mayor Ray Nagin told WWL-AM Thursday night. "They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of goddamn — excuse my French everybody in America, but I am pissed."
::shakes head:: My god.
Who is ultimately to be held accountable for this? State officials?
--Cindy

What state..Do you think the emperor of texas used his weather machine to make this happen?
Apparently George Bush was on Holiday, had to fly over the disaster area in Airforce One to see it from the sky.

This was a disaster of conspiracies. It took years to make. Economic cut back after economic cut back had to happen to make this. Tax dollars went on football stadiums when they should have gone on a secondary sea wall. Tax dollars went on steel industry subsidies and oil industry subsidies and every minor project that has no real worth when the sh*t hits the fan.
Cut backs on mass transit in favour of more cars and more oil consumption. Cutbacks on new roads in favour of tax cuts for the rich corporations.
Where there should be thousand mile long flood release canals from points up river down into places like texas, there is nothing.

How about this for the new reality: This is going to happen every year.

DonPanic · 2005-09-02 18:31:09

LO

It's matter of time, you can't wait the city is safe from criminals, rescuing people is the first emergency
*How can people be rescued when thugs and looters are shooting at rescue helicopters? There are many hurricane victims who are being held hostage by criminals who have proven they will shoot at attempted rescuers.

Roads from New Orleans Airport to New Orleans were famous the
world over as one of the most dangerous spot for isolated tourist cars much before the hurricane. The pity is that gangs weren't disbanded long before by police.
I mean that sending there some troops to deter gangs and looting is quite a simple army operation, rescuing being much heavier a task

srmeaney · 2005-09-02 18:35:39

Roads from New Orleans Airport to New Orleans where famous the
world over as one of the most dangerous spot for isolated tourist cars much before the hurricane. The pity is that gangs weren't disbanded long before by police.
I mean that sending ther some troops to deter gangs and looting is quite a simple army operation, rescuing being much heavier a task

I beleive the tried and true technique for urban pacification is to send in the helicopter gunships and have the national guard boys kill all those hungry black people from the air...

DonPanic · 2005-09-02 18:37:44

LO

Do you think the emperor of texas used his weather machine to make this happen?

:shock: Not before someone explained him patiently some four days how the machine does work

SpaceNut · 2005-09-02 20:11:30

NasaWatch.com has been doing a great community service by opening its pages to those in the affected area in hopes of providing info for those missing our looking. There are also of links and info for Nasa personel as well.

Nasa has some images now coming in on the Michoud plant.
NASA Hotlines Provide Information About Hurricane-Damaged Facilities

"My heart goes out to all the people affected by the hurricane," said NASA Administrator Mike Griffin in a message to employees. "I will be visiting the Stennis Space Center and Michoud Assembly Facility as soon as possible." Administrator Griffin also stated that NASA wants to make certain that our colleagues and their families affected by Hurricane Katrina get the help they need. The NASA Family Assistance Fund will provide a grant of up to $400 and an interest free loan of up to $600 for people living in declared disaster areas.
+ Visit FirstGov For More on Finding People and Donating to Help Victims

srmeaney · 2005-09-02 22:03:38

TOO F***ING LATE! WE'RE ALREADY THERE! The campaign just isn't proceeding as gloriously as some armchair generals might desire.
The next 10000 troops will be arriving over the weekend. They will be coming almost exclusively from out of state, and - in spite of the fact that it took the rest of the country four whole days to realize that Louisiana's National Guard was completely overwhelmed - I for one am glad for the help. Hopefully, they will bring food, water, and medical supplies.

Yeah, they realy needed those emergency service folks to be inbound as the storm hit, that way they arrive on top of the window of rebuilding. Not four days to make an assessment and send in the very mimimum needed.

srmeaney · 2005-09-02 22:29:38

the National Guard arrived in force Friday with food, water and weapons, churning through the floodwaters in a vast truck convoy that was met with both catcalls and cries of "Thank you, Jesus!" from the suffering multitudes.
"Lord, I thank you for getting us out of here," Leschia Radford said at the New Orleans Convention Center as the military rolled in with orders to restore order and feed the hungry.

...So the guy in Airforce One is God? And the folks in green with Machine Guns and Food Aid are his Angels?....Every last able bodied person in the Superdome should have been drafted into the Army as emergency service personnel. Refusers Shot as an object example.

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