Getting air on Mars

MarsDog · 2005-04-28 21:55:59

From water:
http://www.batteriesdigest.com/hydrogen_extract.htm]To electrolyze and compress one kg of hydrogen requires about 52 kWh

That is 8 kg of oxygen.

From CO2:
To get same amount oxygen from CO2 use http://itl.chem.ufl.edu/2045_s00/lectur … .html]heat of formation ratios. 2(241.8)/393.5=1.23 Around 60 KWH.

=======================================

So you could run around for 10 days on 60 KWH ?
Around 6 KWH/day

If you had 3m X 3m solar cell array, 20% efficient;
590 watts X 9 X 0.2 = 1062 watts

It would take 6 hours/day to produce the daily oxygen.

SpaceNut · 2005-04-29 10:23:32

So based on the numbers having a second set of solar cells and a storage tank we can have a safety net for when the panels do get dusty. Then you could again also store the excess power as electricity in the batteries or store compressed gas in other tanks for other uses from these extra panels.

MarsDog · 2005-04-29 13:21:36

We need solar panel manufacturing rovers.
Send them to Mars a few years before the settlers arrive with the nuclear backup.

Then there will be a lot of spare time to play God and build another Garden of Eden. Maybe reverse the order, women first this time ?

Grypd · 2005-04-29 16:36:42

We need solar panel manufacturing rovers.
Send them to Mars a few years before the settlers arrive with the nuclear backup.
Then there will be a lot of spare time to play God and build another Garden of Eden. Maybe reverse the order, women first this time ?

This system has been developed for the Moon it is likely that a similar system could be made to function for Mars

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mp … ]Automated Solar cell manufacturing Robot

Of course dust covering the panels will be a problem

MarsDog · 2005-04-29 20:21:50

Solar cell manufacturing rover is fundamental to all colonization efforts. The http://www.google.com/search?q=solar+ch … tf-8]Solar Challenge and http://www.google.com/search?q=robot+wa … tf-8]Robot Wars could have another section for most watts from a bucket of sand.

Just a little prize money could go a long way.

Grypd · 2005-04-30 14:17:11

We have been experimenting for a long time with solar cells made by Lunar ilemite and have found solar cells made by this method are a) reasonably easy to make and to automate the production process. b) And the solar cells made out of ilemite are extremely hardy when it comes to the lunar enviroment etc.

Of course they are not as efficient as ones we can make on Earth but as we can make a lot quickly this means they win. And toughness and ruggedness is a quality we should praise in our new frontier.

SpaceNut · 2018-03-24 20:17:32

Fixing artifacts and shifting of topic.

Found that this relates to moxie and CO siphoning from the atmosphere

louis · 2018-03-25 05:37:21

That's an interesting calculation.

Does anyone have a problem with that?

MarsDog wrote:

From water:
To electrolyze and compress one kg of hydrogen requires about 52 kWh
That is 8 kg of oxygen.
From CO2:
To get same amount oxygen from CO2 use heat of formation ratios. 2(241.8)/393.5=1.23 Around 60 KWH.
=======================================
So you could run around for 10 days on 60 KWH ?
Around 6 KWH/day
If you had 3m X 3m solar cell array, 20% efficient;
590 watts X 9 X 0.2 = 1062 watts
It would take 6 hours/day to produce the daily oxygen.

Terraformer · 2018-03-25 09:00:32

Do you have a device that's 100% efficient at breaking down CO2? What's the real world performance of solar panels on Mars - and what's the worst case? How many hours of peak sunlight are available?

SpaceNut · 2018-03-25 09:20:34

Oxygen is pretty much a given for electrolysis with only slight improvements to the efficiency and materials masses when it comes to mars.

Co2 however is still being worked on to improve on both quantity to time intake, power efficiency for the processing and the mass for the complete unit.

With the hydrogen from the first process (2H2 + O2) being passed to the output of the seconds (2Co +O2 for making air and or Co2 for fuel creation) into the sabitier reactor to create methane (CH4) with water being the other output from the chamber (H2O).

The same is also true of efficiency mass and energy needs to work the sabitier reactor and mass for the unit.

Void · 2018-03-26 12:44:41

I do think well of what you offer. However I always want to consider additional options, so:

......

I seem to still be in pest mode, not in gone mode, not quite yet.
I have been pondering the high temperature solar cells discussed elsewhere, and it brought back a different type of notion of a greenhouse.
As you know, I have very little faith that a greenhouse of glass pressrized will not leak catastropically, eventually.
I would like to propose something else. Not necessarily a one size fits all solution, but a potential option to consider, and not to club to death immediatly because it is relatively new!
https://phys.org/news/2016-08-high-temp … solar.html
......
Here is what I am after: A device to work on the Martian surface, harvest electricity, and produce photosynthesis options in an enclosed chamber where the pathway of the energy is through non-transparent walls. Using Black Body Radiation.
http://www.giangrandi.ch/optics/blackbo … body.shtml
1'000 K Red
1'500 K Reddish orange
2'000 K Yellowish orange
2'800 K Yellow
3'500 K Yellowish white
4'500 K Warm white
5'500 K White
......
800 DegC translates to 1073.15 K if I did the conversion right.
So of course I am thinking of a cone siting on the surface of Mars, pressurized, and with high temperature solar cells at or near it's apex.
The apex area will need to be of a materials that can endure being heated to 800 or more DegC daily.
So potentially Red light and near infrafed light passed through the metal and/or ceramic apex walls.
Heliostats with pneumantic motors most likely causing the concentrated light at the apex of the cone.
......
But I do not limit it to the temperature endurance of the solar cells. The limitations will be of the tollerance of the metals and/or ceramics. So, the solar cells can be eliminated from the absoulte apex of the cone, and moved down a bit.
In this way the Heliostats might heat the apex of the cone hotter than 1000 K, allowing shorter wavelengths in the visible light range to enter the inside of the cone. Call it coneshine if you like.
But you can still have solar cells where it is cooler.
......
So why bother with this?
Well it might be low maintenance and high productivity.
It is in range to use visible red light for photosynthesis, and also very likely to be able to even use near infrared for photosynthesis.
https://www.wired.com/2010/08/infrared-chlorophyl/
Quote:

A new kind of chlorophyll that catches sunlight from just beyond the red end of the visible light spectrum has been discovered. The new pigment extends the known range of light that is usable by most photosynthetic organisms. Harnessing this pigment’s power could lead to biofuel-generating algae that are super-efficient, using a greater spread of sunlight than thought possible.
http://bit.ly/2TwTeShttp://bit.ly/2TwTeS“This is a very important new development, and is the first new type of chlorophyll discovered in an oxygenic organism in 60 years,” says biological chemist Robert Blankenship of Washington University in St. Louis.
The newfound pigment, dubbed chlorophyll f, absorbs light most efficiently at a wavelength around 706 nanometers, just beyond the red end of the visible spectrum, researchers report online August 19 in Science. This unique absorbance appears to occur thanks to a chemical decoration known as a formyl group on the chlorophyll’s carbon number two. That chemical tweak probably allows the algaelike organism that makes chlorophyll f to conduct photosynthesis while living beneath other photosynthesizers that capture all the other usable light.
“In nature this very small modification of the pigment happens, and then the organism can use this unique light,” says molecular biologist Min Chen of the University of Sydney in Australia. Chen and her colleagues identified the new pigment in extracts from ground-up stromatolites, the knobby chunks of rock and algae that can form in shallow waters. The samples were collected in the Hamelin pool in western Australia’s Shark Bay, the world’s most diverse stromatolite trove.

So then one problem which might be apparent would be that some energy might tend to overheat the cone without providing for Oxadative Photosynthesis.
Well no problem I think, as you know I am always looking for heat on Mars. In particular heat to melt ice, and as by that method to have heat to later shed into the Martian sky to generate electricity. Particularly at night.
......
As my intentions for this device are to be productive, I reccomend a minimal internal air pressure, in fact phtotosynthesis being done by Cyanobacteria, and/or algae. The production of chemecals such as fuels and Oxygen being the objective.
So during the day the critters do that chemestry, and a pool of water at the bottom of the cone protects them from overheating. At night the pool of water protects them from freezing.
During the day you vent heat from the cone to a water reservoir. During the night, the cone is a radiator. You vent steam into it from the reservoir. Generating electricty in the process.
Applause? Ya sure you betcha Raspberries indeed. Invention forboden.

SpaceNut · 2018-03-27 15:48:57

Heliostats and high temperature solar panels are a long ways off as that falls under insitu processed materials and only a few solar panels would be sent as they as well are heavy due to the heatsink on the back of them.
Playing with color to obsorb or reflect is not something that will play much into an early landing but will be selected based on function and even the high temp solar panels will be in black most likely as we will want to obsorb as much heat energy as possible.
Photosynthesis in general is low energy cost once running but its also going to be a few parts as shipped from earth to mars while other parts will need to be made from what we can with what we have in those early missions.
Think of it as the stages of going to school in the the first few missions are pre-school though to 4 grade , while a permanent presence on to being a settlement or colony being 6 through 9 with towns to small cities being high school to graduation with college being metropolis.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-05-05 10:49:38

a base on Mars before the Moon?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCUOTZIbswU&t=5760s

Chinese rover finds lunar soil could make oxygen and fuel on the moon

https://www.newscientist.com/article/23 … -the-moon/

Moon soil could help settlers make air and fuel, Chinese scientists find

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/moon … -qkbvdbsv8

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-26 06:01:45

Russia's only female cosmonaut says 'ready' for Crew Dragon flight
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 … gon-flight

Before people go to Mars, maybe prepare with your manufacturing AI robot machines that build your towns and colony.

Some back up of Oxygen Candles like MIR or ISS, while Sodium chlorate may be used to control a variety of weed plants in a future colony Sodium chlorate is toxic "doses of a few grams of chlorate are lethal, wear gloves, be careful of heat, have it sealed inside a container or get a Robo Android to do all the work? Vika oxygen generator or TGK was originally developed by Roscosmos to supplement the Elektron oxygen system on Mir. Before you have humans or plants and animals inside your Mars Biodome and cities, maybe machines are first sent to build colonies. Your robo AI machine will Transport big containers that make Class Delta Fires, you transport stuff to Burn a High-Class-Level fire, Given NaClO3 + Fe→O2 . The chemical oxygen generatordevice releases oxygen via a chemical reaction, sources are usually an inorganic superoxide, chlorate, or perchlorate; ozonides are a promising group of oxygen sources, Potassium superoxide was used in the Soviet space program, Firefighters and Mine rescue might also use something else, they had self-contained self-rescue device and Personal Egress Air Packs ready in case of disaster in a colony or sudden loss in air. If something were to happen, loss of pressure, a human might jump into a small car or capsule or "ACES" Advanced Crew Escape Suit. Liquid oxygen kept in a cryogenic storage, vacuum-insulated flask used in aerospace, submarine and gas industries, Tetramethylammonium ozonide ((CH3)4NO3) is proposed as a source of oxygen for generators because of its low molecular weight, being 39% oxygen. Lots of this chemical stuff already ready on Earth, several hundred million tons are produced for applications in bleaching pulp to produce high brightness paper, monoethanolamine sprayed that is flat and wants to be fizzy can be used to remove CO2, rich MEA turned back to lean MEA. Lots of Electrolysis machines could be built before humans arrive, maybe the parts of the Machine will be manufactured and 3-d printed by other AI robots. Be careful of liberation of Chlorine gas and Hydrogen, needs purification, potassium hydroxide will more freely liberate H and O and of course reverse osmosis. On the Soviet MIR one liter of lithium perchlorate and can provide oxygen for one person for 24 hours.

A human will survive for days maybe weeks without food

The human won't survive long without water

and without Oxygen, seconds before they die

On the ISS your Back up Air machine is backed up again by another process

https://web.archive.org/web/20080921141 … 3nov_1.htm

http://science.howstuffworks.com/space-station2.htm

Normal air pressure on the ISS is 101.3 kPa (14.7 psi); the same as at sea level on Earth. I believe an Air Control system was also installed on a Japanese module of the ISS, a Trace Contaminant Control System measures levels and remove hazardous trace contamination from the atmosphere and a Constituent Analyser monitors nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide, methane, hydrogen, and water vapors. Tetramethylammonium ozonide ((CH3)4NO3) link , http://www.google.com/patents/US3139327

Once you have the colony up and running, the AI machine farming, the Biosphere plants in soil and macroalgae in water making Oxygen the natural way your colony will become efficient and will worry less about the Chemical backup for humans.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-26 06:14:28)

tahanson43206 · 2022-08-26 06:38:52

For Mars_B4_Moon...

Thanks for bringing back this always-pertinent topic, and for adding your comprehensive overview ...

I was amused to see the back-and-forth about placing CO2 five miles down.

The implication was that CO2 might disassociate under pressure.

That might be true of all molecules, but it seems (to me at least) like a lot of trouble when less energy intensive methods are available.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-26 09:23:36

There was also the option discussed in the Perchlorate threads on Mars, rather than it just being dangerous or toxic it can become useful resource for humans that ClO 4− ion consists of a central chlorine atom surrounded by a tetrahedral array of four oxygen atoms, a biochemical method can be used for removal of perchlorate from Martian soil that would be energetically cheap and could be used to obtain oxygen .

https://marspedia.org/Perchlorate

'In large amounts perchlorate interferes with iodine uptake into the thyroid gland'

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-26 09:24:04)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-27 17:31:46

Some other past newmars discussions linked, for now I believe there is no such thing as too much Water or too much Oxygen

Extra Oxygen?
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6971
Air. Shelter. Water. Food
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7687
A mission to Mars could make its own oxygen with plasma technology
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7885
Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9767
Habitat air
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7157
Martian Oxygen
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7390

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-09-01 01:12:32

Humans a step closer to Mars after Nasa creates oxygen from its atmosphere
https://www.yahoo.com/news/humans-step- … 00819.html

Humans have moved a step closer to settling on Mars after oxygen was created on the planet for the first time.

Nasa has successfully generated oxygen through its instrument named Moxie.

Mounted to the Mars Perseverance rover, the toaster-sized device works by splitting the carbon dioxide-rich atmosphere.

Any hopes to send humans to Mars in the next 20 years depend on the ability to make oxygen on the surface for the astronauts.

Moxie has been turned on seven times since February 2021 and ran at full tilt for an hour at a time, with each test done in different conditions, including various seasons, daytime and nighttime.

Nasa found that about 50 grams worth of oxygen was made during the seven cycles, which the builders of Moxie at MIT say is akin to the productivity of a small tree.

Moxie stands for Mars Oxygen In-Situ Resource Utilisation Experiment and involves a high-quality air filter cleaning detritus from the atmosphere, and then compressing the wispy atmosphere - which is 95 per cent CO2 - to the same pressure of Earth’s air. It is also heated to 800°C before being transferred to a custom-built tool called SOXE.

SOXE - solid oxide electrolysis - passes electricity from an anode to a cathode to convert CO2 into carbon monoxide (CO) and oxygen.

Moxie twice ran an analysis of the oxygen it had created and found it to be pure as well as meeting the six grams of oxygen per hour target.

Scientists are trying to find ways to manufacture essential materials on different planets to save on having to transport them from Earth. Oxygen is perhaps the most important of them all as it is vital for both astronauts and the creation of rocket fuel.

Nasa hopes to have humans on the moon within 20 years and Elon Musk, the billionaire founder of SpaceX, hopes to have a permanent colony on our celestial neighbour.

SpaceNut · 2022-09-01 22:30:09

Nasa as well has been working one a greenhouse that would be used to not only give food but air as well.
I have been looking back on the use of a greenhouse as a part of life support and have made a couple posts about where nasa is Mars Lunar Greenhouse 5af1cf926598e02b008b45a2?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp

This could be something that we not only can use as a base design onboard the ship but since the level of people that might remain on the large ship continuing to grow food we will want a similar system on the mars surface to give replacement parts and general knowledge for its use.

The buried units on the mars surface will require a sleeve for it to reside within.

Mars-Lunar Greenhouse (M-LGH). Funded by NASA Ralph Steckler Program, our team has designed and constructed a set of four cylindrical innovative 5.5 m (18 ft) long by 1.8 m (7 ft) diameter membrane M-LGHs with a cable-based hydroponic crop production system in a controlled environment that exhibits a high degree of future Lunar and/or Mars mission fidelity.
Bioregenerative Life Support
• Per Person Basis
 0.84 kg/day O2
 3.9 kg/day H2O
 50% of 11.8 MJ/day [BVAD Values, 2006]
•2000 Cal/day diet
•Buried habitat
•Six month crew change duration
•Solar for energy supply
•Autonomous deployment
Average daily water consumption 25.7 L day-1
Average daily CO2 consumption 0.22 kg day-1
Average daily elec. power consumption 100.3 kWh day-1 (361 MJ)
24 ± 4 g biomass (ww) per kWh, or
(83 g biomass (ww) per MJ)
edible + non-edible biomass
35.9 min day-1 labor use for operations

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-03-11 10:17:52

There is a leak on the space station with Soyuz, again!

I think it is possible Robots on Mars could set up a chemical factory and maybe AI Robotics powered by a mini nuclear reactor could manage a 'Candle Factory' first, a back up made before any furry animals or human or fish or insect or any type livestock arrive.

“Chlorate salts could be much more abundant than perchlorates on Mars,”
https://web.archive.org/web/20201128114 … r-on-mars/

Oxychlorine salts or chlorates and perchlorates are globally important components of surface soils on Mars, and could form liquid water in concentrated salt

Chloride salts were identified using THEMIS on board the 2001 Mars Odyssey orbiter

'Chloride-Bearing Materials in the Southern Highlands of Mars'
https://web.archive.org/web/20170922235 … al2008.pdf

Chlorate brines on Mars: Implications for the occurrence of liquid water and deliquescence
https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2018E … T/abstract

Oxychlorine salts (chlorates and perchlorates) are globally important components of surface soils on Mars, and could form liquid water in concentrated salt solutions despite prevailing cold and dry conditions. Although perchlorate salts are well-characterized, basic thermodynamic properties of chlorate solutions, such as water activity (aw) and even solubility, are poorly known. To address this knowledge-gap, we measured water activities and solubilities in the Na-Ca-Mg-ClO3 system at 25 °C using the isopiestic method, and fit the data to an aqueous ion-interaction Pitzer model. We find that chlorate solutions have extremely low water activities that could allow liquid water to form on the surface of Mars. Compared to perchlorates, chlorates generally have higher water activities at the same concentration; however, saturated Mg(ClO3)2 solutions, in particular, are extremely concentrated (7.59 mol kg-1) and have aw = 0.2 at 25 °C, substantially below saturated Mg(ClO4)2 solutions (aw = 0.4). If Mg(ClO3)2 salts are present on Mars' surface, then our results suggest a much greater potential for liquid water formation in soils due to freezing point depression or deliquescence than with perchlorates.

Some chemical reactions

Sodium chlorate, Potassium chlorate, Lithium chlorate, Sodium perchlorate, Potassium perchlorate, Lithiumperchlorate . NaClO3 -> NaCl + 3/2 O2 , NaClO4 -> NaCl + 2 O2, KClO3 -> KCl + 3/2 O2 , KClO4 -> KCl + 2 O2 , LiClO3 -> LiCl + 3/2 O2 , LiClO4 -> LiCl + 2 O2

Soyuz MS-23 will be relocated
https://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/schedule.html

This is ongoing news reported by media regarding two Soyuz craft systems supposedly hit while traveling to the ISS with the Russians specifically denying a manufacturing defect.

'A Second Russian Spacecraft Has Sprung a Leak at the ISS'
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2023/02/a-se … t-the-iss/

Chlorates: Tragic Incidents and Life-Saving Applications
https://www.chemistryviews.org/chlorate … ns-part-3/

Do Airplanes Really Carry Oxygen For The Oxygen Masks?
https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/d … masks.html

I assume the Chinese are also using some chemical oxygen generation as back up on their 'Tiangong' station. The main core module of the Chinese station provides life support and living quarters for three crew members, as well as guidance, navigation. Oxygen generation has been used by firefighters and mine rescuers, guys in submarines. When you first hear of burning to make oxygen it kind of goes against your instincts but this has been done chemically for some time, Potassium superoxide was used early Soviet program stations. DC-10 and IL-96 had the canisters that could be fed into an Oxygen mask. You can use inorganics the generators are usually ignited by a firing pin and material sealed in a heat resistant container, the superoxide, chlorate, or perchlorate ozonides, it is a dangerous self sustaining fire that liberates more Oxygen than it consumes it would be a safety risk and explosion can happen yet this is a common way to create breathable air.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-03-11 10:35:52)

SpaceNut · 2023-03-11 13:09:51

Sure, it would be nice and that is part of the issue in that we need a huge down mass to preload mars with and part of that mass is an energy system that matches the requirements for such production to be of use. Even the small nuclear roves have shown why it must be that way to make life sustainable for mars.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-03-29 14:48:07

Leaky Russian space capsule lands safely in Kazakhstan

https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Leak … n_999.html

Russia's uncrewed Soyuz spacecraft landed in Kazakhstan Tuesday morning after suffering a major coolant leak in December.

The cyanobacterium Prochlorococcus has divergent light-harvesting antennae and may have evolved in a low-oxygen ocean
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2025638118

How much oxygen comes from the ocean?
https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/ocean-oxygen.html
About half of Earth’s oxygen comes from the ocean; about the same amount is consumed by marine life.

Scientists estimate that roughly half of the oxygen production on Earth comes from the ocean. The majority of this production is from oceanic plankton — drifting plants, algae, and some bacteria that can photosynthesize. One particular species, Prochlorococcus, is the smallest photosynthetic organism on Earth. But this little bacteria produces up to 20% of the oxygen in our entire biosphere. That’s a higher percentage than all of the tropical rainforests on land combined.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-03-29 14:59:56)

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#26 2005-04-28 21:55:59

Re: Getting air on Mars

#27 2005-04-29 10:23:32

Re: Getting air on Mars

#28 2005-04-29 13:21:36

Re: Getting air on Mars

#29 2005-04-29 16:36:42

Re: Getting air on Mars

#30 2005-04-29 20:21:50

Re: Getting air on Mars

#31 2005-04-30 14:17:11

Re: Getting air on Mars

#32 2018-03-24 20:17:32

Re: Getting air on Mars

#33 2018-03-25 05:37:21

Re: Getting air on Mars

#34 2018-03-25 09:00:32

Re: Getting air on Mars

#35 2018-03-25 09:20:34

Re: Getting air on Mars

#36 2018-03-26 12:44:41

Re: Getting air on Mars

#37 2018-03-27 15:48:57

Re: Getting air on Mars

#38 2022-05-05 10:49:38

Re: Getting air on Mars

#39 2022-08-26 06:01:45

Re: Getting air on Mars

#40 2022-08-26 06:38:52

Re: Getting air on Mars

#41 2022-08-26 09:23:36

Re: Getting air on Mars

#42 2022-08-27 17:31:46

Re: Getting air on Mars

#43 2022-09-01 01:12:32

Re: Getting air on Mars

#44 2022-09-01 22:30:09

Re: Getting air on Mars

#45 2023-03-11 10:17:52

Re: Getting air on Mars

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