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#1 2020-11-29 21:26:36

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

We know that we are going to the moon first before going to mars and with that they are using the lunar gateway to make it possible.

The issues for the gateway and for the moon is the habitat first must be radiation protecting for the crews to reduce the effects of it as we stay longer and longer.

The design of the station needs to have a water jacket at a minimum to shield the crew while in orbit but for the moons surface we would want to provide shelter that is under ground or at least beneath the regolith that is piled on top of the shelter that is brought to the moon.

Next up is how to clean the air on the station to allow for longer stays but we know from even the ISS that we are going to need resupply for its use. The moons surface does not have an atmospher like mars so we will need to look to the regolith to provide the oxygen resupply that we will need.

Turning Moon dust into oxygen is possible as its got 45% by mass bound within each scoop.

We would also want to not keep doing that conversion when we also need building supplies as well so the metallic regolith will be much in need as well in 3D construction equipment.

British engineers are fine-tuning a process that will be used to extract oxygen from lunar dust, leaving behind metal powders that could be 3D printed into construction materials for a Moon base.

https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Business_w … _Challenge

Of course if we mine the ore in the craters shadows we will get water as ice in some of it to make use of to provide a source of water that as well will need replenishing on the surface of the moon as well. The volatiles of the moon will also be found in the same manner.

related topics from newmars:
mining lunar ice

Lunar economics etc

Dust, The health effects - danger to humans from both Moon and Mars

The Case for the Moon

Leverage from lunar resources - The only reason for Moon first

Lunar mining for volatiles - The current definitive study?



Of course the answer to food is the same for man inside the moons sheltering system making use of surface energy to create the lighting needed to grow.

We have many topics for the food so the more important is the shelter and how to create it....

update Waste management is another part of this topic not in the title

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#2 2021-08-23 17:39:25

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

For SpaceNut .... this topic was sitting around with no replies ...

The post below is NOT about the Moon, or Mars for that matter, but it ** is ** about pulling water molecules from air.

The air inside a habitat or a greenhouse is going to be humid so the method described in this report sounds (to me at least) as though it might work.

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/bi … 00465.html

He said that, for several years, Genesis kept the development secret, in part, because it’s easier to show how it works than explain the process of using nanofluid to attract water from the air like a “sponge” and then a “tickle” of energy to ring it dry and start all over again.

“It’s like the Wright brothers trying to tell people that you can have something heavier than air fly, and they think you’re crazy — until they built it,” said Kwast, who is also concerned about whipping up foes.

Now he and the Stuckenbergs are serving glasses of their water from their truck-sized WaterCube at their Tampa headquarters and even adding healthy electrolytes as they prepare for the Sept. 14 public rollout.

“Come on down for a taste,” Kwast urged.

Washington Examiner Videos

This ** sounds ** like a way of pulling water molecules from passing air.

If someone has the time and would care to investigate further than this report, whatever the method is might be useful on Mars as an alternative to previously considered methods of extracting water from the regolith.

(th)

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#3 2021-08-23 19:42:21

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

This is the MOV technology for water removal from air which we have seen work even in a desert.

https://chemistry.berkeley.edu/news/wat … desert-air

https://news.mit.edu/2018/field-tests-d … t-air-0322

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/30/middleea … index.html

Inside the device, the air travels through a sponge-like material that traps the water vapor. As it is collected, magnesium and calcium are added to the water to improve its taste and provide

Spaces that people occupy as well as a greenhouse would utilize such devices to reduce water losses.

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#4 2021-08-24 06:45:57

tahanson43206
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Posts: 18,189

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

For SpaceNut re #3 ... it is helpful to see alternative methods of capturing stray water molecules in air.

The developers of this method claim that they kept it secret for many years, so it could not be the same was some other system.

On the other hand, there surely are similarities, and it should be possible to compare the performance of this new system to existing or previously developed methods.  In addition, one method will be more cost effective than the others.  It will be interesting to see how each compares when we have data to work with.

For anyone in the membership with posting privileges ... please investigate to see if it is possible to learn what these folks are doing.  The concept of a "nanofluid" is new, but the word itself comes across to me as bafflegab.  It might mean something, but since all fluids operate at the nanometer scale, it sure doesn't mean anything to me.

A nanometer is used to measure things that are very small. Atoms and molecules, the smallest pieces of everything around us, are measured in nanometers. For example a water molecule is less than one nanometer. ... We can measure even larger things in nanometers, so a hair is about 100,000 nanometers wide.

Nov 5, 2013
How Big is a Nanometer? | Nanooze!
www.nanooze.org › Articles › General Nanotechnology
About Featured Snippets

Update at 9:12 local time....

For SpaceNut re water from ground in New Hampshire ....

Of the methods you cited, and this new method, one would be superior to the others.  In the case of a ground water supply in a US location such as New Hampshire, what would be ideal would be a system that accepts the ground water as input and delivers pure H2O from the output spigot, with extracted materials (minerals and other suspended matter) flowing off to a collection bucket.

The new method of capturing water molecules that are in the air is reported/claimed to be "secret" and therefore (presumably) different from previously published methods.

At present, and to the best of my knowledge, there exists ** NO ** mechanism to separate water from a flow of turbid water that does not require investment of substantial quantities of energy.

The new method claims to be energy efficient.  Whether that is actually the case is not at all clear, but the need for an energy efficient means of pulling water molecules out of turbid water is so great, that ** any ** hint of a better method deserves close attention.

Update at 9:37 local time ...

The challenge of pulling water molecules from the air is a very different problem from the challenge of pulling water molecules from a flowing stream, such as the output of a ground tap on Earth at a location where ground water is available.  However, the actual mechanism might well turn out to be the same, if the focus is upon activity at the nanometer level.

In the case of ground water, it is possible to imagine using the energy provided by the Sun (elevation of water molecules above sea level) and the convenient mechanism of gravity to stimulate large numbers of water molecules to leave the stream and enter the air above.  If a nanoscale water capture screen is located immediately above a frothy stream, and if the system works as advertised, then it would seem reasonable to suppose that pure water could be delivered to the capture container.  Whether the ** flow ** of water into the capture container is substantial is an interesting question.

The challenge (in this case) is to separate water from a turbid flow with the least amount of energy investment and the maximum yield.

During the Cold War, and no doubt to this very day, US troops set up water purification field stations to pull water from German farm field streams and purify it for use by hundreds of troops on maneuvers.  I have no doubt the systems then and now are operating at peak efficiency given the technology available, and they ** certainly ** achieved the needed yield.  In addition to supply of water for cooking, these field stations were able to supply water for shower facilities out in the middle of nowhere.

I'm interested in the advance of energy efficient water purification technology because it is needed on a vast scale across the planet.

(th)

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#5 2021-08-24 14:08:21

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,398

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

Without wishing to annoy you, I queried for Nanofluid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanofluid
Quote:

A nanofluid is a fluid containing nanometer-sized particles, called nanoparticles. These fluids are engineered colloidal suspensions of nanoparticles in a base fluid.[1][2] The nanoparticles used in nanofluids are typically made of metals, oxides, carbides, or carbon nanotubes. Common base fluids include water, ethylene glycol[3] and oil.

I am guessing of the base fluids Oil might make the most sense, as I think ethylene glycol might harm Kidneys, and although I may be wrong but using water might be odd as they "Wring" water out of the Nanofluid with electricity.  Maybe I am wrong.  Oil would not so much be a electrical conductor.

Well, anyway, you have only weeks for them to "Out" their machine.

Mars air does not carry very much water, so then you might have to treat a lot of Martian air, to extract water.

However, you might consider what water may be dissolved into Martian soil.

That is a substantial substance, and I do believe that there can be brine droplets
in it, or perhaps a combination of water and Hydrogen Peroxide.

Perhaps you might want to consider getting a stream of air out of the soil, if it is of such a nature that air can pass through it.

Then use the device you have posted about to extract water from that air stream.

Solar Still:  (Since you seem to be becoming interested in gadgets)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_still
https://worldwaterreserve.com/potable-w … lar-still/

On Earth, what happens is that U.V. knocks water vapor off of sand grains.

The the "Tent" forms, the enclosure, allows the water vapor to condense into water.  A transparent window of plastic film is involved.

Brine in soil:
https://www.spaceflightinsider.com/miss … tian-soil/
Quote:

CURIOSITY DETECTS POSSIBLE LIQUID BRINE IN MARTIAN SOIL

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2019A … B/abstract
Quote:

Martian Near-Surface S and Cl Brines in Fractured and Porous Regolith Could Trigger Microscale Soil Collapse and Cause Recurring Slope Lineae

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180954978/
Quote:

Rover May Have Found a Water Source for Humans on Mars
Data collected from the Curiosity rover suggests liquid water could be harvested from Martian soil

Moisture moving in and out of Martian soils:
I did not work to hard to find references for this, but it only makes sense.  The Martian night produces high relative humidity situations, and the day, very low relative humidity.  So, the soil may have some "Relative Humidity" somewhere between, especially if there are salts in it.

Ice Fogs on Mars:
Pictures:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ic … BasicHover

Fogs in low lying places at times:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

So, there are winds on Mars during the day, but I believe the air is rather still at night, and may allow cold air which may have elevated humidity, to fill low places, and perhaps flow down old river valley situations.

So, there may be soils that are better charged with moisture, and which might more quickly recharge with moisture.

So, a primary moisture extraction method would be to heat the soils, and draw off
air, that may contain that output.  I suggest involving a vacuum pump method.

Maybe have a "Car" which has a plunger thing that can press the ground and have
a "Lip" surrounding the plunger plate.  Then suction air out of the ground, and compress the air and have your secondary device in the compressed air chamber.

The pressures might be 3 mBar in the "Vacuum Chamber" which is pressed on the ground, and the pressurized chamber might be ~>=12 mBar, which could allow condensate water.  However we need to know more about the device you have
mentioned.

If this method or something like it were used, the car would periodically move and put the plunger down elsewhere.  This could use a heliostat for heating perhaps, or microwaves.

Another alternative would be to get a big sheet of flexible material, and place it over a buried ice body.   Cover the edges with soil.  Then pull a mild vacuum.  It is possible that you would use passive solar heat from the plastic, but you might want to put reflective foil around the edges.  This is so as the ice sublimates under
the main part of the sheet, and the soil covering the ice subsides, the edges may remain firm.  Of course where you might vacuum out the air with moisture, you would then conduct it into a chamber where your secondary method could condense water.  (We hope).

Dealing with Ice Slabs:
https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html
Quote:

The ice the scientists found measures 130 feet (40 m) thick and lies just beneath the dirt, or regolith, or Mars.

"It extends down to latitudes of 38 degrees. This would be like someone in Kansas digging in their backyard and finding ice as thick as a 13-story building that covers an area the size of Texas and California combined," Bramson said.

So this could be a deep hole after you extract the ice.

The sheet would be like a flat tent, which would probably sag a bit.

Perhaps when the ice was exhausted, the sheet could be moved to a new "Mining" location.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08 … fe-seekers
Quote:

Water ice found near Mars’s equator could entice colonists and life-seekers
By Sid PerkinsAug. 16, 2017 , 1:45 PM

So, if the above can be confirmed, then it becomes a question of why to settle in the high latitudes of Mars.  But it would need confirmation.

Others have mentioned methods to melt ice slabs into liquid water similar to how it has been done in Greenland.  So the methods I have suggested would have to be competitive with that.  Some places it may be so.

Others have suggested mining ice as a solid.  That is an option, I guess if all else fails.  Even then you might want to evaporate the melt from the ice, or go directly from ice to vapor, and use the secondary device you have posted about (th).

I hope you are OK with my response.

Done

Last edited by Void (2021-08-24 14:53:25)


Done.

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#6 2021-08-24 18:03:57

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

For Void re #5

Thank you for investigating "nanofluids"!  The explanation of how the term is understood is helpful!

***
In posting what follows, I admit to being inspired by Void, whose imagination is foremost in the forum ...

In another topic, the subject of habitat came up .... this topic is in Life Support Systems, and it is specifically about Luna.

However, I believe what I will offer is applicable to many environments away from Earth, including Mars.

The challenge to be addressed is maintaining pressure inside the habitat.

My proposal for review and (hopefully critical) evaluation is to use the familiar sphere as the basis for construction of a habitat.

Many visions of possible habitats I have found in reading the forum, and viewing the videos from last year's Mars Convention seem to imagine a hemisphere, or perhaps a half cylinder, with the base held in place by stakes or perhaps piles of regolith.

I would like to propose the habitat start with a full sphere.

The sphere can be inflated on the surface of the body, and regolith piled up around the sphere to provide a shape corresponding to the shape of the habitat. As the exterior is built up, I would propose that corresponding regolith be admitted via airlocks to the interior of the sphere, so that the surface inside the sphere matches the level of the regolith piled outside. 

When the work is completed, the stress of holding the shape against internal pressure will be propagated throughout the spherical surface.

In the scenario imagined here, the surface of the interior of the habitat would match the surface of the exterior material.

An alternative is to excavate a bowl ahead of time, set the inflated sphere into the bowl, and then admit regolith until the surface inside the habitat matches the surface outside.  Once again, the stress of holding pressure would be distributed evenly throughout the surface of the sphere.

As a finishing touch, to insure protection of the sphere from projectiles that may be arriving from deep space, arches may be constructed to reach over the habitat sphere without touching it. 

SearchTerm:Spherical shelter
SearchTerm:Shelter spherical


(th)

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#7 2021-09-12 09:24:38

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

NMSU students work together on NASA’s ‘Plant the Moon Challenge’
https://www.lcsun-news.com/story/news/e … 294299002/

As part of NASA’s “Plant the Moon Challenge,” their team, named “Zia Luna,” experimented to see what crops could grow on moon soil simulant to identify potential food sources that can be grown on the moon for future human space missions.

NASA created the “Plant the Moon Challenge,” which is open to all ages and backgrounds across the country, as a global science experiment to give anyone interested a chance to be a part of the next frontier.


The China Rover and greenhouse experiment? The Chinese tested cotton seeds; rock cress seeds; potato seeds; rape seeds; yeast; fruit fly eggs; Arabidopsis thaliana, a common, hardy weed. They landed a mission on the Far side with a Lunar Micro Ecosystem (LME) experiment. The LME carried six lifeforms, kept in mostly Earth-like conditions except for micro-gravity and lunar radiation. The seeds were rendered dormant with undefined “biological technology” for their journey to the Moon and only began to grow when a command was sent to water them. Eventually the harsh Lunar conditions were too much and the Rover Biosphere experiment died off but collected useful data.

The 2019 Seeds Experiment.
https://www.space.com/43012-china-cotto … ng-e4.html

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#8 2022-03-09 20:10:55

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

Team chosen to make first oxygen on the Moon

https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Sp … n_the_Moon

“The payload needs to be compact, low power and able to fly on a range of potential lunar landers, including ESA’s own European Large Logistics Lander, EL3. Being able to extract oxygen from moonrock, along with useable metals, will be a game changer for lunar exploration, allowing the international explorers set to return to the Moon to ‘live off the land’ without being dependent on long and expensive terrestrial supply lines.”

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-03-09 20:11:48)

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#9 2022-06-12 07:18:15

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

NASA’s New Spacesuit Contract Is a Big, Fat Expensive Gamble

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nasa-spacesu … 33640.html

Recent NASA updates on next-gen spacesuits and lunar-roving robot

https://techstory.in/recent-nasa-develo … ing-robot/

NASA Partners with Industry for New Spacewalking, Moonwalking Services

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nasa-par … 00042.html

NASA has selected Axiom Space and Collins Aerospace to advance spacewalking capabilities in low-Earth orbit and at the Moon, by buying services that provide astronauts with next generation spacesuit and spacewalk systems to work outside the International Space Station, explore the lunar surface on Artemis missions, and prepare for human missions to Mars.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-06-12 07:20:18)

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#10 2022-06-24 09:50:20

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

Lunar science stirring on Mount Etna
https://www.moondaily.com/reports/Lunar … a_999.html
This image comes to you from Mount Etna, Sicily, where a lunar analog study focusing on robotic exploration is currently unfolding.

The project - named the ARCHES Space-Analog Demonstration - is a multi-agency, multi-robot event brought to life by the German Aerospace Center DLR, and featuring significant ESA participation. ESA will be joining the project to run the latest and final part of the Analog-1 campaign, the completion of which will mark the culmination of one of the agency's long-term research endeavours, dating back to 2008.

For four weeks spanning 12 June to 9 July, the project will explore the operations and technologies that enable a sample return mission on the lunar surface involving an astronaut on the lunar Gateway with a rover operations control room on Earth and scientific expertise on-hand at other control centres.

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#11 2022-06-24 12:15:30

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

Here is what nasa has been working on for food and air which can be used on the moon underground for sure.

SpaceNut wrote:

I have been looking back on the use of a greenhouse as a part of life support and have made a couple posts about where nasa is Mars Lunar Greenhouse5af1cf926598e02b008b45a2?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp

This could be something that we not only can use as a base design onboard the ship but since the level of people that might remain on the large ship continuing to grow food we will want a similar system on the mars surface to give replacement parts and general knowledge for its use.

The buried units on the mars surface will require a sleeve for it to reside within.

Mars-Lunar Greenhouse (M-LGH). Funded by NASA Ralph Steckler Program, our team has designed and constructed a set of four cylindrical innovative 5.5 m (18 ft) long by 1.8 m (7 ft) diameter membrane M-LGHs with a cable-based hydroponic crop production system in a controlled environment that exhibits a high degree of future Lunar and/or Mars mission fidelity.

Bioregenerative Life Support
• Per Person Basis
 0.84 kg/day O2
 3.9 kg/day H2O
 50% of 11.8 MJ/day [BVAD Values, 2006]
•2000 Cal/day diet
•Buried habitat
•Six month crew change duration
•Solar for energy supply
•Autonomous deployment

Average daily water consumption 25.7 L day-1
Average daily CO2 consumption 0.22 kg day-1
Average daily elec. power consumption 100.3 kWh day-1 (361 MJ)

24 ± 4 g biomass (ww) per kWh, or
(83 g biomass (ww) per MJ)
edible + non-edible biomass

35.9 min day-1 labor use for operations

whether we can make use of such locations for building in.

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#12 2022-08-13 08:36:06

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

maybe use for a Mars Space Station?

Easier oxygen in space, Making oxygen with magnets could help astronauts breathe easy?

https://phys.org/news/2022-08-oxygen-ma … -easy.html

This study demonstrates for the first time gas bubbles can be 'attracted to' and 'repelled from' a simple neodymium magnet in microgravity by immersing it in different types of aqueous solution.

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#13 2022-08-13 14:22:52

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

Some more for the above article Magnets Could Solve The Oxygen Problem For Astronauts On Long Voyages

If the magnets are creating inductive heating, then an atmosphere that contains locked up oxygen would disassociate and make o2

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#14 2022-08-14 16:57:06

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

For Mars_B4_Moon and SpaceNut .... thanks to both of you for finding and showing this research...

Here is a bit more from the article ...

The article explains that electrolysis is still needed to produce oxygen from water ... the problem appears to be that in microgravity, the bubbles do not move to a collection point.

If I understand the research correctly, magnets can help to move bubbles of gas along.

For SpaceNut ... it appears (subject to correction) that inductive heating is not involved.

I'd appreciate other members studying the article to see if I've missed something important.

Regarding the Large Ship (any of the designs) .... it would appear that artificial gravity would alleviate the need for the magnetic transport system, but (on the other hand) I get the magnetic effect might help to make the electrolysis more efficient.

https://phys.org/news/2022-08-oxygen-ma … -easy.html

stronomy & Space
Space Exploration
AUGUST 12, 2022

Making oxygen with magnets could help astronauts breathe easy
by University of Warwick

Credit: Pixabay/CC0 Public Domain
A potentially better way to make oxygen for astronauts in space using magnetism has been proposed by an international team of scientists, including a University of Warwick chemist.


The conclusion is from new research on magnetic phase separation in microgravity published in npj Microgravity by researchers from the University of Warwick in the United Kingdom, University of Colorado Boulder and Freie Universität Berlin in Germany.

Keeping astronauts breathing aboard the International Space Station and other space vehicles is a complicated and costly process. As humans plan future missions to the Moon or Mars better technology will be needed.

Lead author Álvaro Romero-Calvo, a recent Ph.D. graduate from the University of Colorado Boulder, says that "on the International Space Station, oxygen is generated using an electrolytic cell that splits water into hydrogen and oxygen, but then you have to get those gasses out of the system. A relatively recent analysis from a researcher at NASA Ames concluded that adapting the same architecture on a trip to Mars would have such significant mass and reliability penalties that it wouldn't make any sense to use."

Dr. Katharina Brinkert of the University of Warwick Department of Chemistry and Center for Applied Space Technology and Microgravity (ZARM) in Germany says that "efficient phase separation in reduced gravitational environments is an obstacle for human space exploration and known since the first flights to space in the 1960s. This phenomenon is a particular challenge for the life support system onboard spacecraft and the International Space Station (ISS) as oxygen for the crew is produced in water electrolyzer systems and requires separation from the electrode and liquid electrolyte."

The underlying issue is buoyancy.

Imagine a glass of fizzy soda. On Earth, the bubbles of CO2 quickly float to the top, but in the absence of gravity, those bubbles have nowhere to go. They instead stay suspended in the liquid.

NASA currently uses centrifuges to force the gasses out, but those machines are large and require significant mass, power, and maintenance. Meanwhile, the team has conducted experiments demonstrating magnets could achieve the same results in some cases.

Although diamagnetic forces are well known and understood, their use by engineers in space applications have not been fully explored because gravity makes the technology difficult to demonstrate on Earth.

Enter the Center for Applied Space Technology and Microgravity (ZARM) in Germany. There, Brinkert, who has ongoing research funded by the German Aerospace Center (DLR), led the team in successful experimental tests at a special drop tower facility that simulates microgravity conditions.

Here, the groups have developed a procedure to detach gas bubbles from electrode surfaces in microgravity environments generated for 9.2s at the Bremen Drop Tower. This study demonstrates for the first time gas bubbles can be 'attracted to' and 'repelled from' a simple neodymium magnet in microgravity by immersing it in different types of aqueous solution.

The research could open up new avenues for scientists and engineers developing oxygen systems as well as other space research involving liquid-to-gas phase changes.

Dr. Brinkert says that "these effects have tremendous consequences for the further development of phase separation systems, such as for long-term space missions, suggesting that efficient oxygen and, for example, hydrogen production in water (photo-)electrolyzer systems can be achieved even in the near-absence of the buoyant-force."

Professor Hanspeter Schaub of University of Colorado Boulder says that "after years of analytical and computational research, being able to use this amazing drop tower in Germany provided concrete proof that this concept will function in the zero-g space environment."

(th)

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#15 2022-08-21 18:48:10

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

Air bubbles on plates of electrolysis is a problem even on earth. A constant field force will if polarized correctly repel the bubbles away from the plates if strong enough.

I noticed that all the generators mount the electrolysis unit which would cause the bubbles to shake free of the plates due to vibrations of the running engine.

So, if the units used motion of a speaker coil to a plate under the others, then as the motion of the lower plate occurred you would get the bubbles to move by water flowing inside the unit.

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#16 2023-03-20 11:10:20

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

Here’s Where Artemis III Might Land. It Looks… Inviting

https://www.universetoday.com/160645/he … -inviting/

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#17 2023-03-20 18:42:19

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

I see Lunar south pole...

artemis-iii-landing-regions-580x326.jpg

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#18 2023-03-26 12:29:56

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

We take so much from mother earth that is free and we want a NewMars or NewMoon to be the same where we breath the air and drink water with next to nothing for energy to be expended to make them available.
Short of making Nuclear source to scale for a residential use we are stuck with many a source that has low efficiencies to create and then store.

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#19 2023-05-05 02:48:59

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,584

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

NASA funds Icon 3D for lunar and Mars construction.
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/05/n … ction.html

Whilst 3D printing is an interesting idea, I do wonder about the efficacy of printing pressurised structures from moon dust, which will be a brittle ceramic material.  These materials do not take tensile forces very well.  And any pressurised structure will experience tensile forces in its shell.  It would be metastable until you get a crack that exceeds critical length.  At that point, the crack expands through the material catastrophically.  The simplest way around this is to produce gravity stabilised structures, which always experience net compressive forces.  That would work reliably, but it means moving a lot of rock and soil over the structures.  Another option would be to run prestressing cables through the structures.  None of the 3D printing concepts that I have seen appears to do either of these things.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#20 2023-05-05 03:42:50

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

For Calliban re #19

Thank you for this update regarding 3D printing of shelter, and for your helpful reminder of the forces at work!

The ability of the 3D printed structures to take compressive loads is key to their success, wherever they are deployed. 

Machinery to pile regolith on top of a 3D printed structure is of a low order of complexity (compared to 3D printing).

If you were to organize a construction company to build habitats on the Moon, or Mars for that matter, you might hire talented people to take on parts of the responsibility to complete the work, while you would maintain overall supervision and guidance roles for your immediate support team.

Because (you have reported) none of the plans you have seen include the external regolith component, please continue adding details to your vision.

With any luck, we may be able to attract the attention of members with complementary skills to yours, so that the otherwise insurmountable challenge becomes manageable.

(th)

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#21 2023-05-05 20:42:25

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 7,398

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

I recall that the walls of the crew compartment of the LEM was said to be "Heavy Aluminum Foil".

So a compressive structure with an Aluminum Foil Balloon(s) inside.  The foil will be mailable, so any vacuum drawn between the ceramic wall and the Aluminum film should reveal itself and so then betray a leak.  And you might want something like duct tape and the ability to weld thin Aluminum.

A corset of cables and/or metal bands on the outside might be helpful.

Piling a lot of regolith on top will likely be wanted as radiation protection and to buffer temperature swings.

While the Europeans/British have worked on machines to extract Oxygen from Lunar regolith, Blue Origins indicates that it can process regolith into parts for solar panels.  I would suspect that to offer Aluminum and Iron, Iron to perhaps make steel bands?

There is a lot to discover, including if there are veins of ore that may contain volatiles which Plastics, Tars, and Glues could be made from.
And it might be possible to import those substances as well

However, I would think that where possible it is better to have avatar robots on the Moon where possible and so then less of a population of people.

But we don't know.  Many inventions may come, and many discoveries also, and where priorities are placed may shift many times.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-05-05 20:49:39)


Done.

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#22 2023-08-25 09:42:29

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 9,774

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

Russia Luna-25 Moon Crash: Investigation Underway
https://www.leonarddavid.com/russia-lun … -underway/

Space cement is here: How it could be used to build houses on Mars and the Moon
https://interestingengineering.com/inno … d-the-moon

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#23 2023-08-25 13:28:41

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,189

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

For Mars_B4_Moon re #22

Thank you for finding and posting the link to work on in SITU concrete ... The key to success (as I understand the article) is use of heat along with careful selection of materials to be heated together to produce strong molecular bonds.

The article seems to suggest (as I read it) that some small amount of a key ingredient is still needed from Earth.   I hope that eventually a solution is found that yields a strong building material that does not require ** any ** input from Earth, other than knowledge/skill/experience.

I noticed in particular a quote to the effect that a particular field of study does not yet have PhD level understanding.  It appears that there is at least one student working that problem.

(th)

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#24 2024-02-25 17:44:33

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,314

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management

Thanks to Void we have another to make use of in "Mars Direct 3 is a Mars mission architecture developed by Miguel Gurrea" topic.
https://www.marspapers.org/paper/Gurrea_2021.pdf

Plus Mars direct was a 40mT payload
https://www.marspapers.org/paper/Zubrin_1991.pdf

A reuseable craft requires the means to make the fuel of choice.

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#25 2024-03-29 15:02:00

JoshNH4H
Member
From: Pullman, WA
Registered: 2007-07-15
Posts: 2,559
Website

Re: Lunar Air. Shelter. Water. Food, Waste management


-Josh

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