Who Governs Mars? - Corporate Warlords vs. Commonwealth

srmeaney · 2005-04-09 21:41:06

Going to Mars requires economic stability. Right now, three billion are unemployed and are struggling to sustain themselves. Going to Mars will require a global improvement in this condition.

The idea of a 'Space Commonwealth' is not fantasy. It is a structured ethical government that will need the support of the entire world and as a consequence will be representative of that world.

Something that does not exist anywhere on this planet. The USA claims the Moon because it's flag is there. Will the USA recognise China as the sole Governing body of Mars and the resources there if it puts down a flag on the red planet? Would it rather recognise a Space Commonwealth which is representative of the population of the World than a Government that represents a minority of the Earth population?

srmeaney · 2005-04-09 22:38:42

I will probably need to put the Ideas on the Space commonwealth into a single post in some sort of logical and comprehensible order. Far too many have no Idea what I am trying to explain.

Grypd · 2005-04-10 07:19:24

The USA claims the Moon because it's flag is there. Will the USA recognise China as the sole Governing body of Mars and the resources there if it puts down a flag on the red planet?

The USA does not claim the Moon it cannot due to the Outer space treaty which specifically bars any country from so doing so. The USA may have a flag on the Moon but it means little except to show American winning of the space race (1 ??? ) and there great landing on the Moon. The Moon treaty is more or less universally ratified by the world.

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/SpaceLaw/o … html]Outer Space treaty a guide

This will show the points of the treaty.

srmeaney · 2005-04-10 07:35:13

It wont be the first time a treaty was torn up because one party has decided to press the advantage.

I notice it refers to rules governing states, not corporations and individuals. Have they made any progress in this area or can we expect the Catholic Church to claim Mars in the name of God?

The last thing we need is hordes of the faithful swarming out into the Universe like a plague.

Leifur · 2005-04-10 13:59:48

I for one wonder what Mars will make us, not what we would make Mars. :;):
Exactly!
There is very little "out there" worth finding, except the finding out of what we can become. Which is priceless.

I can agree with this up to a point, going into space will change us profoundly, mostly by broading our horizon I hope and give us new possibilities. One of that changes will hopefully be more capitalistic outlook on life, of course specially in space where capitalism is the only viable solution and power to put us firmly into space, but also on Earth, as such a capitalistic space society will have effects on Earth societies, thus changing us to the better.

This commonwealth seems like an attempt to create a marxist state with overtones of China...

It seem to be so in some sense, in China they have to embraced capitalism up to a point, to enrich the ruling elite and cementing its power on the society, sadly we allowed that to happen.

China is not a communist state. China is a dictatorship run by a beauracracy with millitary support. Real communism which you are so fond of Accusing the Commonwealth of is in fact a governmentless state where everyone governs themselves and has an equal share and the right to contribute and pretty much work together. Conceivably if Boeing was owned by all its workers (and only it's workers), that would be Communism. You should recognise it, It was pushed forward as the way things work on Mars in the Kim Stanley Robinson Mars series as the future of industry and corporations.
Funny that, Communism being the future of all Capitalism. Probably wont be too popular with the directors on fifty million a year who bankrupt the company and dont produce anything, but it should be real popular with the working stiffs who are being paid less than the value of their contribution.

Workers are paid according to the value of their contribution to the employer, that is the nature of free market of working force, if they pay less they can go to another company that is willing to pay more for their contribution, this is the most normal of all things.

The fact you don´t see it, and your faith in the outdated, disastrous and in fact plain evil idea of Communism shows that you are in bad need of reality check. Actually Kim Stanley Robinsson has some need for it to, because although I liked his books it never ceded to amaze me how on earth (or Mars ) this society could have worked. The caracters newer seemed to do any work, and there was no production or anything in this society to drive it on, I sometimes wondered if they were living of the back of an invisible slave class that was newer mentioned.

Actually one of the caracters tried to start a farming bussiness, but everything went wrong, but it did not seem to affect him one way or another, and he as the rest of the population seemed to just continue playing and do some pet project, noone seemed to pay for.

The state will have to retain total ownership of the mineral rights as collateral to borrow the funds needed just to pay for colonization and terraforming. That means a population restriction of ten million Colonists. All who will work for the state for the rest of their lives. Of course, they will be happy to have a job. On earth, unemployment will have reached three billion.

If the ,,state" owns everything, the economy of Mars will be in disastrous shape so the terraforming or even the settlement plan will newer take of the ground, the people of Mars will just not afford it. Then of course noone will want to go there, as there will be absolutely no opportunities for people, and the population will be very, very limited, much lover than you are stating. Then of course the martian society will be utterly powerless, or in fact nonexisting (like today) and thus there will be no settlement or terraforming. The only way to create a Martian society is by using the power of capitalism and allowing people to create property rights on Mars.

Okay, so 3 billion people are unemployed on Earth, and previously you have stated that 3 billion people will die
...
You can have your common wealth fantasy, but it makes no sense in any kind of plausible way.

Exactly my point, I can agree with all you say, and in addition I say that we need much more people to be strong enough to colonise space and Mars.

The idea of a 'Space Commonwealth' is not fantasy. It is a structured ethical government that will need the support of the entire world and as a consequence will be representative of that world.
...
Would it rather recognise a Space Commonwealth which is representative of the population of the World than a Government that represents a minority of the Earth population?

Wow, now you want this evil communist dictatorship to rule my country too, newer ever again, will the proud independent people of Iceland surrender their independence, specially not to an global dictatorship that will just trample on our rights, steal our resources and kill our culture.

I notice it refers to rules governing states, not corporations and individuals. Have they made any progress in this area or can we expect the Catholic Church to claim Mars in the name of God?
The last thing we need is hordes of the faithful swarming out into the Universe like a plague.

So you are also hateful against religious people, the ones that are going to play the biggest role in making us strong enough to push us into the space with its ethical lifestyles of respect for family, tradition, morality and thus will play major role in creating enough good hardworking, wellbalanced, welleducated and right thinking productive people with their high fertility rate and sound and healthy social community structure that creates good and strong people, the likes of whom we need most of to have the stability needed for such an enormous task.

Grypd · 2005-04-10 14:56:09

It wont be the first time a treaty was torn up because one party has decided to press the advantage.

I notice it refers to rules governing states, not corporations and individuals. Have they made any progress in this area or can we expect the Catholic Church to claim Mars in the name of God?
The last thing we need is hordes of the faithful swarming out into the Universe like a plague.

Please Srmeaney I find that a very distasteful thing to say. I reject that you bring religous bigotism to a board that is designed to be forward thinking and to be here for the benefit and education of mankind. My country has been wracked by feuds between religous groups and we are a lot more understanding of what religous bigotry means. I have seen it personally and really hate it.

clark · 2005-04-10 16:40:22

How now, Brown Cow?! :laugh:

srmeaney,

The last thing we need is hordes of the faithful swarming out into the Universe like a plague.

Does this mean that the Space CommonWealth you so courageously defend, would require that all citizens renounce their religion and/or god?

I might mention, 99% of the world's population believes in a religion/god.

More and more rules for would be Martians... how on Earth are you ever going to convince people they should belong to this organization? So far, most here are not biting. :laugh:

srmeaney · 2005-04-10 22:15:42

No. just keep it to your self. And dont push it on others. You know,presreve the right of the individual to freedom from tyranny of church and state.

Self-government. not representative government, personal responsibility for individual actions. And exclusion from civilization if you cant respect that.

I might mention, 99% of the world's population believes in a religion/god.

only because they were forced to. and calculating the ability to move people into space, that is the same bunch left behind.

Grypd · 2005-04-11 08:48:17

No. just keep it to your self. And dont push it on others. You know,presreve the right of the individual to freedom from tyranny of church and state.
Self-government. not representative government, personal responsibility for individual actions. And exclusion from civilization if you cant respect that.
I might mention, 99% of the world's population believes in a religion/god.
only because they were forced to. and calculating the ability to move people into space, that is the same bunch left behind.

Most voluntary colonisation in the 17th and 18th centuries where by groups who fled there home lands to find a new life and to avoid religous persecution.

For the USA the pilgrim fathers are a good example these people where willing to move cause they where a religous minority. So Srmeaney there are a lot of reasons for people to move somewhere new and probabily dangerous. They just have to have faith in themselves and in the rest of there party.

Of course your commonwealth would do it the other way by the involuntarily transport of people in what could be called prison hulks.

It is said that when the going gets tough the tough get going.

To somewhere a lot easier.

And who's to say the tough wont be religous actually the chances are they will be you need to have a lot of faith to do this and to take your family with you or to even decide to go to a new world and to have your family there.

srmeaney · 2005-04-11 09:42:34

Of course your commonwealth would do it the other way by the involuntarily transport of people in what could be called prison hulks.

Anything with more than Ten is a colony ship. Who said they were going involutarily? If you dont want to go, dont sign on as a citizen of the Commonwealth.

...and there is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered; and I believe, further, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other. -Benjamin Franklin

Self Government is not despotism. An equal share of the Responsibility and Benifits of Civilization are not Tyranny.

Fledi · 2005-04-16 17:13:22

You said the universe should belong to the Commonwealth. Did you mean this one?
Sorry you can't have it, I lost it some time ago in a game of bomberman.

srmeaney · 2005-04-16 22:15:11

Fledi Posted on April 16 2005, 19:13
You said the universe should belong to the Commonwealth. Did you mean this one?
Sorry you can't have it, I lost it some time ago in a game of bomberman.

Then no one is going anywhere.

All right, Consider this. The Commonwealth, The real one that has a large number of nations who are member nations, could establish a new nation that would be the Commonwealth nation of Mars (With UN recognition that it has the exclusive right to govern and own the resources and Territories of that world and thus required to represent the new population of this new nation as a mirror of the Earth population). That Government would borrow the fifty million billion a year required to colonize Mars. Pay it back into the World Economy through Contracts that would benifit the Nations and peoples and corporations of this World. Yet retain that debt as a foreign debt to be paid back over the centuries to come.
The Commonwealth has certain laws that are common to all member nations. These laws do indeed define the right of the individual citizen to an equal share of the responsibilities and benifits of Citizenship and in the face of Tyranny, the right to self government. It is an act of Treason against the Commonwealth to attack these Laws. Most importantly, it upholds the need for good and ethical Government as paramount in any enterprise.

It addresses the Failings of the U.S. Constitution that were seen by Benjamin Franklin and Offers the only solution. The right of the individual to exist free of Church and State, yet requiring the Individual to uphold as an equal participant in the rule of Law as a citizen of a Commonwealth.

Leifur · 2005-04-17 04:07:13

That Government would borrow the fifty million billion a year required to colonize Mars. Pay it back into the World Economy through Contracts that would benifit the Nations and peoples and corporations of this World. Yet retain that debt as a foreign debt to be paid back over the centuries to come.

There you go at it again. No creditor is ever going to loan that much to a communistic government wich by the very nature can never fullfill the potential Mars could give individual (and corporate) entrepreunurs. But you are right that the huge investment it will take to colonize Mars will strengthen the World economy and benefit the nations and peoples and corporations of this world. But that is if course only if those that take loans or invest in other ways in such undertaking can get good enough returns to pay their creditors and investors back.

And frankly I do not trust a government agency, specially not someone that is burdened with such ideological constraints as you describe to do that. The market will only trust someone like themselfs for that, so what is most important now is to make Mars eligable for investment, weather by reforming the flawed space treaty, or just create a Mars wide government that recognises property rights, sets basic laws how they are created and other kinds of protections of investments and opens up for foreign investment and immigration.

One of the biggest obstacle to both of our plans is that creditors and investors must have patience, the money in essence needs to be patience and long time investment, as I doupt Mars will be able to repay the investment until it is ready for mass immigration, that is when it is mostly terraformed. That is because I doupt Mars will have any other usable resources to be used economically than land, or space. That is I doupt it will be economical to mine and ship productions from Mars to Earth or any other human settlement any time soon. But of course I can be wrong, then the market will find a way, that is the beuty of capitalism .

Fledi · 2005-04-17 06:14:59

I think the best way to make colonization happen is to lower launch cost down to the scale where an average individual can get a ticket to mars by selling most of their possessions here on earth. Some of the more wealthy could afford to additionally buy enough supplies to support the initial colony until it becomes largely self supporting.

While I like Leifurs idea about a totally free economy, I fear it would eventually lead into some kind of communism in the end.
That's simply because in such a system there would not be enough power to stop big businesses from growing even bigger ultimately becoming a single huge monopoly, very similar to what communism in the eastern block was after the death of stalin.

What happens then is that people loose respect for the property of that monopoly and unless you have a totalitarian and brutal enforcement of its property rights people will begin to steal everything from it. Then ultimately your system will crash leaving behind mafiosy structures.

srmeaney · 2005-04-17 06:38:15

I think the best way to make colonization happen is to lower launch cost down to the scale where an average individual can get a ticket to mars by selling most of their possessions here on earth. Some of the more wealthy could afford to additionally buy enough supplies to support the initial colony until it becomes largely self supporting.

You fail to see one fact. The have nots are effectivly discriminated against.

Civilization is the right to an equal share of the responsibility and the benifits.

Fledi · 2005-04-17 07:49:57

Of course I see that, I just don't see another effective way to do it. Certainly not by taking out a loan of 50 million billion, noone would grant you that much money.
And I don't see where a price limit would be for earth to LEO transportation, maybe it will be as cheap as taking a bus ride one day.

srmeaney · 2005-04-17 17:09:46

Thats the problem, no-one sees that a government can take a foreign loan against assets that are real. People struggle to see the benifits because "it wasn't how we did things".
If we didn't do it that way why should we let others? They also revile the process because it wont be a Government they can control, bribe, get tax consessions from, ect.

For the first time ever it will need to be ethical citizens and ethical Government. Some folks are incapable of living in that kind of world.

Fledi · 2005-04-17 17:46:25

Could you explain how we ought to come from where we are now to getting that loan?

And please stop telling about what kind of people we need to make that system work. If people were different than they are many things would be possible, but the point is they are not. We will just have to work with what we have and improve things based on that.

srmeaney · 2005-04-18 07:45:21

We go with the Idea that the current Commonwealth of British nations is evolving into a World spanning Commonwealth that will be more than it is now.

As the Commonwealth is a collective of Nations, It falls to them to set in motion a process whereby the Heads of Commonwealth Nations meet and establish a new Government/nation member whose territory is Mars. This while initially a simple process, does require the member nations to agree on the creation of a new nation.
(While this process could be put forward by the UN nations directly, beginning with Commonwealth membership affords the member certain rights of recognition at the international level and constitutional responsibilities to it's citizens. Basicly if the Nation was attacked or had it's territory violated, the nations of the Commonwealth would be required to respond against the agressor state. Commonwealth membership grants a certain level of legitamacy).

-----------------------2006 AD--------------------------

Having agreed upon this idea and laid out a solid plan of governance, and constitution the Commonwealth would go to the United Nations and apply to declare the Territory of Mars to be the Territory of the Commonwealth Nation of Mars (as to be established). They would need to explain that the funds required to create this nation (requiring the colonization of the planet Mars and the infrastructure needed to get there) would be borrowed against the Mineral wealth inherent in Mars itself (We would need an accurate measure of just what is there). There would obviously be an income from the intellectual property that would be produced by such a nation but the world bank is unlikely to loan against anything other than considered estimates of mineral value. And inforem thenm that although the Mega huge loan is to be paid off in the far distant future, there must be a realization that that wealth will be spent into the world economy on an annual or Martian Year basis. The Nations of the World and their economies will benifit here and now from the contracts needed to make this happen. Basicly we are looking for support from the Members of the Security council.

The UN being what it is will require Global representation of potential Citizenship. That means a citizen intake Quota equal to the population percentage of individual nations.

-----------------------2007 AD----------------------------

Having been granted recognition and the right to borrow such wealth every martian year, we begin. Training and recruitment through nations who already train astronauts. Potential recruits will need to be trained for about the next three years in the basics. Astronaut, cosmonaut stuff and language skills, probably along the lines of English as a primary national language because this is a Commonwealth nation that is being established. Although there will probably be a requirement for a Multilingual Recruit

As has become the way in India (an ex-Commonwealth nation) English is the national and international Commerce Language while all the provinces have returned to their provincial dialects.

While the training and recruitment is getting on, we then look at mission development. The "Government of Mars" (functioning for now from it's UN Plaza Embassy) sets out a basic concept say teams of twenty every mars window. This Government would work up a plan for Colonization. This should take about three years if they Contract out to NASA ESA, or the Russians to begin Engineering a development plan for immediate colonization where Colonist teams of twenty would be going to stay. Eventually we would want to achieve a thousand colonists per launch window but for now a team of twenty every window. We can bring this Population movement up slowly. This would suit a process where the ISS was completed and turned into a Space Transport designed to be Reused in a long term way.

-----------------------2010 AD---------------------------

If we go with the Tin Can Habitats for the first hundred colonist sites (These sites would be established as Mineral rich sites and these colonists would be the first waves of what are effectivly survey teams. There job will be to survey the sites for further expansion.), that would be at least a colony of a hundred people in the next twenty years, a variation of the Zubrin Plan where people would go and live in Sites on the Surface. With an established "Plan of Colonization" the first colonists would be launched in 2015 in the ISS (now a space transport). That would probably mean four x-38's for use in landing on Mars, The initial deployment of a Transponder on one of the Moons with a nuclear Power station so it can opperate unmanned.

------------------------2030 AD------------------------

srmeaney · 2005-04-18 07:58:29

Basicly on their off hours, Colonists would be responsible for governing themselves. Yet they would still be signatory to the Laws of the Commonwealth.

Mundaka · 2005-04-18 08:04:06

Fledi · 2005-04-18 09:04:54

We go with the Idea that the current Commonwealth of British nations is evolving into a World spanning Commonwealth that will be more than it is now.

Hmm and how do you want to make that happen?

As the Commonwealth is a collective of Nations, It falls to them to set in motion a process whereby the Heads of Commonwealth Nations meet and establish a new Government/nation member whose territory is Mars. This while initially a simple process, does require the member nations to agree on the creation of a new nation.

I wonder what all the Nations who are not members of the Commonwealth would say to this.

They would need to explain that the funds required to create this nation (requiring the colonization of the planet Mars and the infrastructure needed to get there) would be borrowed against the Mineral wealth inherent in Mars itself (We would need an accurate measure of just what is there)

Given there are huge valuable mineral deposits on Mars, why do you think they would care about minerals that will have to be transported back to Earth first to be of any use?

The Nations of the World and their economies will benifit here and now from the contracts needed to make this happen.

Not that bad of an argument, difficult to see the disadvantage at the first look.
I guess you would have worldwide inflation in the end because of all the money pumped into it without any real near-term counter-value.

probably along the lines of English as a primary national language because this is a Commonwealth nation that is being established.

Yes, every child knows it will be the language in space. Look at all the sci-fi, even the aliens speak English.

This would suit a process where the ISS was completed and turned into a Space Transport designed to be Reused in a long term way.

Basically a good idea. You would have to increase its radiation shielding for deep space travel though.
Also, maybe it would be better to go with one way ships to spare additional fuel required for deccelerating that large mass back to Earth orbit.

With an established "Plan of Colonization"

LOL I bet it would be subdivided into five year plans.

Lastly I would like to thank you for this thread. I had great fun reading it, especially liked the part about the prison colony on the moon and the Einstein-Bose condensat.

srmeaney · 2005-04-19 04:23:14

I love it when they fear change. It means they no longer have currency to throw at you.

Though you desire it not, Mars will be open to the people who build the Civilizations. This one will be better than those that came before it.

ps If it takes a thousand years to colonize Mars then the plan must reach beyond that. Five year plan indeed.

clark · 2005-04-21 15:35:34

Here, let me dust off my ol' Martian chestnut... ah yes, here it is.

The Coming Martian Dawn and The Inevitable Development of a Coherent Social Construct By Which A Unique Martian Civilization Flourishes and Thrives! (Ah, CaPaTaLiZaTiOn, no letter missed, no word less ImPoRtAnT than the LaSt!)

So, the libertarian fantasy on Mars is dead. It ain't gunna happen. Yeah, yeah, I know, raining on your parade. Freedom Fries and respect for individuals rights is all fine and good. Personal Responsibility is a wonderful concept, but you know what, the Martian's have a saying about wonderful concepts, "they don't plug air leaks."

Personal responsibility would lead everyone to assume that everyone else is doing what they are supposed to. Sure. Fine. And then the kick in reality makes the adults (or the paranoid, same thing really) point out that if everyone is dependant upon everyone else, then it only takes ONE person to muck up the show for everyone.

Put another way, say your nuclear safety inspector is not with the "personal responsibility" bandwagon (we can call him Homer). So Homer neglects his duties, and <poof> Chernobyl Redux vaporizes a lot of responsible people and their children. Okay, so we punish Homer and send him off to the Lunar Gulag TM. Well, that's after the fact, meanwhile, Homer has killed umpteen dozens of hundreds of Martians, and half the infrastructure. I won't even calculate how many 5 year plans he has set the CommonWealth-whatever back.

One person.

That's why we have those pesky rules and regulations, standards and oversight, checks and balances. We have people who specialize in holding other people accountable. Why? Because people are stupid and/or lazy. People are irresponsible, even the responsible ones lapse too (just ask your dad about the night you were conceived, anyway...)

Going to Mars will not change the human condition one Iota. Going to Mars will have humans who behave according to the environmental conditions there- i.e., living in small enclosed spaces where death surrounds on all sides, and all are dependant on a stable and safe, and secure community.

Lot's o' cameras and sensors, boys and girls. Lots of pre-planning and Plan B's, and not to mention fall-back suits/habs/whatever.

You want to put millions of humans on Mars, more power to you, but that merely complicates the entire premise. Look at society, as population increases, our social hierarchy expands and becomes more complex- we end up with more rules to deal with one another- and this is only increased further when the population exists within a high-urban density (exactly what Mars will be).

This CommonWealth is fanciful, but it is nowhere near plausible on any plain of exsistence that most of us now inhabit. Of course, maybe where you are coming from, it makes sense. Whatever.

Sincerely,
Clark.

Grypd · 2005-04-21 18:00:40

Clark I agree with you.

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