Terraforming Machine

srmeaney · 2005-04-03 22:27:45

I said that if the only out put is C2H2 and O2, then calcium is internal to the process and recycled.

Calcium Carbonate is Gypsum, marble, limestone, depending on heat and pressure and bacterial interaction, but it could also be produced by CO2 pushing up through Calcium Silicate deposits to produce a white crystaline CaCO2 deposit on the surface of Mars that could be mistaken for Ice by some fool from NASA. After all why the hell would you think that was limestone if there is no life on Mars?

MarsDog · 2005-04-04 22:26:37

http://ltpwww.gsfc.nasa.gov/tharsis/Mar … Topography and water do not match well. See http://ltpwww.gsfc.nasa.gov/tharsis/mola.html]MOLA

Sand depth and water transport is undetermined.

Did deep water layers evaporate and get replaced by CO2 ?

srmeaney · 2005-04-05 02:25:48

I'm suggesting that Ice made up of both H2O and CO2 which may have been there at a time when, i dont know- the planet had a different axis of spin?, by the simple process of moving up through a layer of Calcium might possibly break up and form CaCO2 and so that an apparent Gypsum Layer might be occuring by other means than the presence of organic processes.

Perhaps a potential volcano released a bubble of CO2 which normaly would have blown a hole resulting in Magma release on Mars except Gravity was less and as a consequence less CO2 than needed to breach the surface. Eruption never reaches the Surface, Cools down with the reduced CO2 pressure, CO2 works it's way through a Calcium rich layer and produced CaCO2.

karov · 2005-04-05 04:53:53

I'm suggesting that Ice made up of both H2O and CO2 which may have been there at a time when, i dont know- the planet had a different axis of spin?, by the simple process of moving up through a layer of Calcium might possibly break up and form CaCO2 and so that an apparent Gypsum Layer might be occuring by other means than the presence of organic processes.
Perhaps a potential volcano released a bubble of CO2 which normaly would have blown a hole resulting in Magma release on Mars except Gravity was less and as a consequence less CO2 than needed to breach the surface. Eruption never reaches the Surface, Cools down with the reduced CO2 pressure, CO2 works it's way through a Calcium rich layer and produced CaCO2.

This guy spoiled/contaminated the forum. Ban him!!!

srmeaney · 2005-04-05 08:05:43

Ban yourself Karov.

When you filter one substance through another there is always a certain level of Chemical interaction.

They even produce Duterium by filtering Helium through Cadmium just to strip the Neutrons.

srmeaney · 2005-04-08 07:38:52

How about a Solar chimney. As the convection of hot air occurs there is a rise in both air pressure and temperature towards the the centre of the hot house.
http://www.visionengineer.com/env/solar … html]solar chimney link
A permanent process allowing for the extraction of water due to heat and air pressure.

If we can get a large coverage, the chimney could produce a convection temperature of 80 degrees C all day long and thermal retention into the night.

Dook · 2005-04-08 08:06:53

There really is no air and very little atmospheric pressure on mars. Hot carbon dioxide gas and water vapor would rise in the tower producing some energy (likely very little). The water vapor could be captured and condensed to obtain water.

But once all the water is obtained from that area you are done. The solar chimney is so large that it can't be mobile.

Mobile microwave vehicles are probably the best idea for obtaining water on mars. Also we need to decontaminate the regolith to use it to grow plants, removing dangerous oxides and metals and adding fertilizer. I'm sure whatever machine we build to do this can also recover water from the regolith.

Earthfirst · 2005-04-08 11:07:18

I was looking into the solar chimney idea it seems to me that it would work greet here on earth. I saw ne designs that would make energy even less by heating incoming air through a coil tube in the main chimney. The hot air rising would heat the incoming air so heat loss would less. 1000m chimney would be 3280ft the tallest buildings in the world are about 2000ft but a chimney would be much lighter a could be much taller. So a 3280ft tall chimney could be made. At the top dry air cools at a rate of 3.3 deg f/1000ft so air inside at 130f would cool off at the top 10.8f to 119.2f. The rising air creats wind that turns wind turbines at the base of the chemney.
It work great in sunney areas, once built it would not cost any money for fuel, just maintian it. If well made it could easly last 100s of years more than paying for it self.
On mars this idea could work well to heat a colony, my idea is to make the chimney in a deep canyon or in a lower elevation than the main colony. The green houses heat pressurized air some air as people breath, this hot rising air is piped up hill to the main colony were it heats it. Cold sinking return to the greens houses down by a pipe right next to the other one. The cold air is then heated and is returned to the colony. This idea would work well if the colony is high above the heatin grennhouses like on the canyon edge, or up hill on a foothills or mountian. This way you can uses the greenhouses to grow food and heat your colony.

Dook · 2005-04-08 11:22:15

On earth it should produce power. On mars?

You may be able to heat air in a lower greenhouse and send it up to a higher one, the higher one would have a cold tube to send air down to be reheated but this would be a completely closed loop system and I just don't see much of a benefit. The air would cycle very slowly and produce almost no energy. The greenhouses would have to be gigantic for it to produce any real amount of energy.

MarsDog · 2005-04-08 19:48:38

For C3F8
Boiling Point @ 101.325 kPa = -34.1°F
Freezing Point = -297.4°F
=========================================
http://vpl.ipac.caltech.edu/spectra/sf6.htm]SF6 does not work well because cannot be piped in from the poles, after it freezes out.
Sulfur Hexaflouride (SF6)
Freezing point -50 C
Boiling point (sublimes)
=========================================

Establishing a super greenhouse gas cycle, with C3F8, similar to the water cycle on Earth.
Boosted into the atmosphere by solar chimneys, the gas would liquefy at the poles, to be returned to the equatorial region. Conveniently, the freezing point is low.

=========================================

Need lot of preparation, would be hard to do without a large Martian colony.

=========================================

The greenhouses would have to be gigantic for it to produce any real amount of energy.

Even on Earth the solar chimneys have to be very large.
It is still feasible on Mars to produce real power.

Note well == volume for same mass would have to be 1,000 times larger; however the scaling the length is only cube root of 1,000 or 10.

Dook · 2005-04-08 20:06:12

It does seem that the solar chimney design could be built over a gas factory and used to warm and get super greenhouse gasses high into the atmosphere. The solar chimney should also keep the factory relatively warm. If the sides were closed in it could serve as a large greenhouse as well.

SF6 may not be a good choice for a greenhouse gas since it's just going to freeze almost instantly.

There was a web page I found once that showed many different super greenhouse gasses. Some graduate students came up with a mixture of gasses that would provide the most benefit, each gas is slightly better at holding different wavelengths of infrared energy in.

srmeaney · 2005-04-08 21:34:54

6 mile diameter collector * 3000ft chimney= several gigawatts. It is the temperature increase of 20 degrees and the acompanying increase in air pressure towards the centre that interests us for Mars purposes. With a diameter of a hundred miles, we could be growing plants in the open.

Dook · 2005-04-09 06:47:32

6 mile diameter? No way, not possible. Even one a hundred feet in diameter would be a launch challenge.

srmeaney · 2005-04-09 07:17:47

A solar chimney was always going to be a major job. That is why I have been pointing to the inadequacy of the Current Heavy Lift resources. Colonizing and Terraforming Mars needs at least a million tonnes a year for a thousand years (90 percent of which will be food and equipment that allows a hundred to build the life support systems for a self sustaining thousand, every two years afterwards until we reach that ten million Mars population). That is why we will be totaly dependent on Mars itself for providing housing and shelter and advanced resources (caves and stuff).

Dook · 2005-04-09 08:04:34

Ten million mars population? Why in the world would we ship that many people off the earth to a desolate work camp in space?

We don't need a massive earth abandonment plan, we don't even need to terraform mars.

We should go to mars to search for life, to conduct science, test greenhouses, and see if terraforming will even work.

After enough science has been conducted, if it's possible, only then should we make the attempt. I believe it will be a much more gentle process though. With a few space mirrors and a bunch of automated super greenhouse factories. Some people will have to stay on mars to maintain the equipment but I would imagine they would rotate home after a year or so.

MarsDog · 2005-04-09 13:13:02

We don't need a massive earth abandonment plan,
we don't even need to terraform mars.

Some humans stayed in Africa, others left to colonize the rest of the Earth.

There are always hermits, pioneers, and visionaries who self select and seize opportunities.

Better a King on Mars, than a slave on Earth ?

=======================================

I calculated http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1796]15 times length, scaling from Earth to Mars Solar Chimney.

Dook · 2005-04-09 14:56:31

Humans walked out of Africa. Good luck getting to mars the same way. When we do go to mars it will be for exploration regardless of what all the science fiction books say.

MarsDog · 2005-04-09 15:27:39

Humans walked out of Africa

After walking and outrunning the antelopes, humans started using horses, cars, boats and planes.

Even rockets to the Moon.

There is a progression of capabilities, enabling expansion.

Dook · 2005-04-09 16:15:08

Yep, that's why we will do the smart thing. Slow exploration without risking hundreds of lives on foolish, unnecessary, science fiction fantasy.

srmeaney · 2005-04-09 20:24:21

Dook has obviously realized that Mars/Space Colonization wont be through any nation but a 'Space Commonwealth'. I knew you would see it my way Dook!

It isn't foolish, unnecessary science fiction fantasy though.

The ten million who go to Mars will be it's inheritors (and they will be going spread over a thousand years because we wont be able to achieve anything better or faster).
Perhaps another million might make it onto space stations, you know-"out there" (the expense to maintain that million will exceed the expense we went to for the ten million on Mars).
By the end of that thousand years of hard work, that will probably constitute 1/1000 of the earth's population.

The rest of us will just have to settle for life on the Prison colony of Earth.

Dook · 2005-04-09 20:51:11

Ten million on mars? A million in space stations? Why in the world would we do such a stupid thing?

Not gonna happen. The costs would be enormous, and for what? There is no profit in it. Ain't enough money in the world to do what you are asking.

Anyway, if it did happen then the ten million corpses spread out on mars would at least give it an organic base.

srmeaney · 2005-04-09 21:20:46

That is like asking why should Europe send colonists to stay and exploit the resources of America when it can ship workers in then out after they are done growing food, milling the hardwoods, producing the Tobacco, Mining the gold, ect.?

Sure it prevents the working class from fortifying their position with resources and declaring independence.

Dook · 2005-04-10 07:02:36

America had an oxygen atmosphere, food supply, water! Mars doesn't! Don't you get it? We couldn't afford the constant resupply ships.

Working class?

You think by going to mars you can escape but your problems are going to be the same whether you are on the earth or mars.

Grypd · 2005-04-10 07:08:40

America had an oxygen atmosphere, food supply, water! Mars doesn't! Don't you get it? We couldn't afford the constant resupply ships.

Ah but we have already found water on Mars and we also have the ability to crack the CO2 to get oxygen and of course the carbon. This would give us the ability to create plant capable ground out of the Martian regolith and this means food.

But moving ten million colonists is not going to happen anytime soon. We will have the capability one day to support that many on Mars but we have not yet sent a man there so it wont be this century.

srmeaney · 2005-04-10 07:50:06

Of course it wont be ten million in a century. It will be ten, then a hundred, two hundred until we can send a thousand a mars launch window. Those who go will be using what is available to produce housing. Underground housing.

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