Terraforming Machine

Dook · 2005-03-28 12:09:45

If super greenhouse gasses are used to help terraform mars we will need factories, likely nuclear powered, that take in martian regolith and combine required elements into greenhouse gasses. Sulfur and flouride to make sulfur hexaflouride and others.

Anyone have any ideas about how such a machine would work? Maybe use centrifuges? Mix the regolith in water? Magnets?

MarsDog · 2005-03-29 08:04:04

http://www.camd.lsu.edu/msds/s/sulfur_h … htm]Health Effects:
Inhalation: Simple asyphyxiant. In humans, exposure to 80% sulfur hexafluoride and 30% oxygen for 3 minutes produces peripheral tingling and a mild excitement stage with some altered hearing in most subjects. Repeated or prolonged exposure to fluorides may cause fluorosis with weight loss, brittle bones, anemia, weakness, general ill health, stiff joints, and discoloration of teeth when exposure occurs during tooth formation.

Breakdown product are a problem, as Mars experiences lightning. Ultraviolet and X-Ray effects ?

Sublimes at -50 C. Will it settle out at the poles? Even Earth has lower temperatures.

karov · 2005-03-29 10:45:49

The supergreenhouse gas is C3F8 - google for "Marinova McKay "... The biochemical aspects by the way are absolutelly irrelevant even for the not so inert substitutes you mention, cause we are talking about miniscule concentrations - ppm or ppb...

karov · 2005-03-29 10:47:00

The supergreenhouse gas is C3F8 - google for "Marinova McKay "... The biochemical aspects by the way are absolutelly irrelevant even for the not so inert substitutes you mention, cause we are talking about miniscule concentrations - ppm or ppb...

Dook · 2005-03-29 17:50:10

http://www.camd.lsu.edu/msds/s/sulfur_h … htm]Health Effects:
Inhalation: Simple asyphyxiant. In humans, exposure to 80% sulfur hexafluoride and 30% oxygen for 3 minutes produces peripheral tingling and a mild excitement stage with some altered hearing in most subjects. Repeated or prolonged exposure to fluorides may cause fluorosis with weight loss, brittle bones, anemia, weakness, general ill health, stiff joints, and discoloration of teeth when exposure occurs during tooth formation.

Breakdown product are a problem, as Mars experiences lightning. Ultraviolet and X-Ray effects ?
Sublimes at -50 C. Will it settle out at the poles? Even Earth has lower temperatures.

I didn't know there was anyone living on mars. Please forward your proof to NASA immediately.

The super greenhouse gas sulfur hexaflouride can be used to begin the terraformation process. People won't be breathing it because there is no and won't be any oxygen for them to breathe for a thousand years. The super greenhouse gasses just get us warmth which gets us millibars, an atmosphere of carbon dioxide, maybe oceans of water, but that's it. And they last for about 100 years so they will be long gone by the time people ever get to walking around without an oxygen supply.

I have heard about Marinova, she's the one who came up with sulfur hexaflouride. There are more super greenhouse gasses. I believe a combination of them provides the best heating results.

The point of this topic is "How do we make them on mars". How do you separate metals, sulfur, and flourine from the expected regolith? Pour the dirt into a large centrifuge? Mix in water then filter the water? Pour it over magnets? Any ideas?

MarsDog · 2005-03-29 23:06:15

How do you separate metals, sulfur, and flourine from the expected regolith?

The http://www.nap.edu/openbook/0309084261/ … tml]Viking Landers did not have the capability to detect Fluorine. Lot of prospecting needs to be done. Standard mining engineering techniques will likely work.
Crushing pulverizing etc.

srmeaney · 2005-03-30 00:16:51

Anyone have any ideas about how such a machine would work? Maybe use centrifuges? Mix the regolith in water? Magnets?

Say you wanted copper, You use sulphur to grow crystals of copper sulphate. You can filter out your crystals for processing in the next stage.

if you bubble sulfuric acid through the regolith material you picked up, iron is extracted as iron sulphide (a gas), the iron extracted as a fine powder could be pressed into "ingot-rods" and dropped in a bin which emptied when full.

But considering colonization of Mars will be restricted to the underground mining colony of Olympus Mons, and all those regolith minerals will be for the growth of crops once the Planet is sufficiently terraformed, there will be none of this resource plunderer thinking.

chat · 2005-03-30 05:22:13

Dook,

A low tech idea.

I think since mars has so much UV and light streaming down to the surface a way must exist to use it to extract gasses from ore.

Maybe just getting a sulphur/o2/hydrogen etc rich ore to the surface, spread it over a large area and place a clear layer over it.

You should be able to extract all the gasses that escape as the ore heats up under the sunlight and UV.

The ideal way at that point would be to just burn the product, but since mars has little free o2 that is a problem.

If you can find 2 gasses that burn together without o2 then its a real easy low tech way to teraform.

Well low tech as in... a full strip mining setup.
A mobile gas collection plant.
A few clear 1km x 1km sheets.
Some plumbing and pumps for gas collection.
50 operators.
And a working colony for them.
A crap load of power for the above.

chat · 2005-03-30 05:28:39

Like the boy scouts on earth starting a fire.

A few mirrors used to focus the light on mars surface could produce enough heat to melt whatever you liked with little power required for the mirrors.

Extracting gas from ore shouldn't be to difficult.

srmeaney · 2005-03-30 07:44:31

You should be able to extract all the gasses that escape as the ore heats up under the sunlight and UV.

Considering that there isn't enough energy to evapourate water or melt ice, (as I said previously, the process of Iron Oxide formation only happens because the Iron is assisting the breakup of the Hydrogen and Oxygen) It will take a lot more Solar radiation than is produced during periods of low radiation.

MarsDog · 2005-03-30 07:50:43

But considering colonization of Mars will be restricted to the underground mining colony of Olympus Mons

A belt of greenhouse, cave complexes aroung the equator is likely . The power grid could serve an additional purpose of generating a magnetic field around Mars, protecting from solar storms and retaining the atmosphere. In order to protect from the proposed melting and flooding, a ridge would have to be built to rise above water levels.

srmeaney · 2005-03-30 08:31:58

Considering that the Vallis Marineris and it's like are little more than fissures in the planetary Permafrost, the idea of living in caves at that level is far to dangerous. The stability offered by mining out Olympus Mons and building a support city within the mountain offers the ability to store oxygen and nitrogen as they are extracted as real atmosphere and exaust out the CO2 if we cannot use it in the mining process to extract ores.
It offers radiation shielding and the option to create vast underground Greenhouses and aquaculture farms to feed the colony.
Then the other part of the terraforming project could be pursued without having an effect on the colony on Mars the dumping of ice from the Asteroid belt into the Mars atmosphere.

MarsDog · 2005-03-30 09:04:12

Of course, safe and convenient locations first.
But an equatorial complex, encircling the planet, of roads, tunnels, services in the future.

karov · 2005-03-30 13:10:00

Of course, safe and convenient locations first.
But an equatorial complex, encircling the planet, of roads, tunnels, services in the future.

Yes, equatorial ring-city is very convenient form. The linear cities are very well shaped for transportation - if the backbone of the circummartian city complex is superfast maglev trains` tunnel - than simultaneously this ring can serve as: energy distribution/storage device ( with both electric currants in superconductor + mass streams), central street and transport artery, planetary magfield generator... I can`t find now where I take this: but somewhere ( you help me) I found that sufficiently long cyclotrone can be used as proton-proton net energy gain synthesizer ( the example was about orbital ring-pipe in earth`s LEO), so such ring-city line can be used also to produce enormous quantities of energy, too - burning plain hydrogen... As transport line - the most distant points of the circle would be mutually accessible for mere hour or two maximum. The Circle can be connected with orbital rings and towers in order to be provided direct space access.

If we assume the lenght to be equal to the martian equator, the maximum width and hight of this city to be only 5 km ( walking distance), than such "arcology" can house giant human population: one km hight is 50 20-metter levels - so, at ~1000 people/km2 -- >680 000 000 people. Such arcology would produce huge quantities of thermal and volatiles waste - so ring-city is not alternative, but way of preparation and prerequisite for final terraformation...

MarsDog · 2005-04-01 22:51:44

Such arcology would produce huge quantities of thermal and volatiles waste - so ring-city is not alternative, but way of preparation and prerequisite for final terraformation...

Latitudional ring settlement complexes can be easily illuminated with solar reflectors at the sides. (Mountains and valleys alternating ?)

Interconnected longitudionally, heat exchange (rivers) could take place with the poles, melting ice as necessary.

Another advantage is incremental terraforming.
If undesirable effects develop, the process can be easily modified.

===========================================

Since there is greater control of energy,
it may be a more productive arrangement than simple terraforming.

Too bad we cannot do it on Earth.

srmeaney · 2005-04-02 03:17:41

Cities at the Eqatorial Zone? The Cities at the Equator would be sitting on an Iron Oxide-Permafrost. There is no Geological stability offered by such a location. Even after the Permafrost dries out due to terraforming and becomes rock, it would attract a high level of Electrical storm activity.

RobS · 2005-04-02 14:09:35

srmeaney, you have no idea what you are talking about. The bedrock on Mars is drier near the equator. It isn't made primarily of iron oxide, but silicates (that's true everywhere). The water content is probably just a few percent, maybe ten percent. It is perfectly stable. Attracts electrical storm activity? Where does that idea come from?

-- Robs

MarsDog · 2005-04-03 00:11:43

Conveniently, there will be some water,
but a lot more will need to be mined.

If Mars became flooded by terraformation, from the poles, or asteroid impacts. It could be inhabited by Eskimo sailors.

===========================================

http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/pia03800]Water map

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/20 … ter_x.htm] Within a yard of Mars' surface is "global ocean," about 5 inches thick

srmeaney · 2005-04-03 02:08:43

Yes. A very nice article Marsdog.

Proved my point. Mars has a planetary Permafrost glacier. The NASA data proves it.

That is why the Mons Olympus site will be the sigle focal point for colonization. But only if we redirect our global economy to the development of a new spacefaring civilization now.

Despite the Rolingstone article "The Long Emergency" failing to point out that petroleum is the economic magnifier for all industry and trade and that therefore, with the price of oil going from 25 dollars a barrel in 2004 to 50 dollars a barrel in 2005, the the fact that the world economy has failed to feel the impact of a hundred percent price increase in what is being produced using that oil proves that the economy is about to fail big time.

Being rich just became a crime. Using force to take more than your share just became a war crime. America won't be going to Mars. It used up it's share of the resources yesterday.

Rxke · 2005-04-03 04:23:33

Sigh.

Why does every single topic goes off-topic?

I want to read about terraforming machine ideas hatdammit!

Dook · 2005-04-03 05:56:12

But only if we redirect our global economy to the development of a new spacefaring civilization now.

Nonsense.

Dook · 2005-04-03 07:59:24

Two super greenhouse gasses are sulfur hexaflouride and octopropane.

Sulfur comes from volcanic activity and meteorites so it should be available at Olympus Mons and on the surface. Usually sulfur is obtained by sending hot water into a shaft to melt it (119 degrees C melting point) and then bring it to the surface. This shouldn't be difficult on mars. Some kind of rover with a drill and a large storage tank I guess.

Flourine boils at -306 F. No chemical substance is capable of freeing flourine from any of it's compounds so that is a problem. I don't know how we are going to obtain it.

Propane is a molecule with 8 hydrogen atoms surrounding 3 carbon atoms. If we could assemble them on mars then we could make octapropane.

Rxke · 2005-04-03 09:14:02

propane, hmmmm.

you can get it from natural gas... so...
a rover that has something like a bioreactor aboard... find a way to get it looking for suitable deposits, mix it, humidify it, incubate with bacteria that expell natural gas... bring it up to ideal temp and voila, propane, methane yihaa!

plus-side is that you could get biomass thisway, as a bonus,... downside that it's probably quite energy intensive to keep a bacterial colony thriving, keep the rover digging/searching for suitable deposits (also water,...)

srmeaney · 2005-04-03 10:51:44

1. The manufacture of Calcium Carbide requires Calcium and Carbon to be mixed together in an electric furnace.

2. Acetylene (a hydrocarbon gas) is manufactured by mixing water with Calcium Carbide.

If you can find a bacteria that will replace the furnace and combine the Calcium with the Carbon, then you have something useful. A mobile gas plant.

Even better if you can take CO2, H2O and produce Acetylene (C2H2) and Oxygen (O2) (An Effective Rocket Propellant) as the final products while using the same Calcium over and over. That way we can recycle the Calcium to produce more. That means the machine only takes in CO2 and H2O as inputs.

Dook · 2005-04-03 13:42:18

Aren't all calcium deposits from organic's?

EDIT: Sedimentary calcium (calcium carbonates) is from organics. Calcium silicates are from igneous rocks.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2005-03-28 12:09:45

Re: Terraforming Machine

#2 2005-03-29 08:04:04

Re: Terraforming Machine

#3 2005-03-29 10:45:49

Re: Terraforming Machine

#4 2005-03-29 10:47:00

Re: Terraforming Machine

#5 2005-03-29 17:50:10

Re: Terraforming Machine

#6 2005-03-29 23:06:15

Re: Terraforming Machine

#7 2005-03-30 00:16:51

Re: Terraforming Machine

#8 2005-03-30 05:22:13

Re: Terraforming Machine

#9 2005-03-30 05:28:39

Re: Terraforming Machine

#10 2005-03-30 07:44:31

Re: Terraforming Machine

#11 2005-03-30 07:50:43

Re: Terraforming Machine

#12 2005-03-30 08:31:58

Re: Terraforming Machine

#13 2005-03-30 09:04:12

Re: Terraforming Machine

#14 2005-03-30 13:10:00

Re: Terraforming Machine

#15 2005-04-01 22:51:44

Re: Terraforming Machine

#16 2005-04-02 03:17:41

Re: Terraforming Machine

#17 2005-04-02 14:09:35

Re: Terraforming Machine

#18 2005-04-03 00:11:43

Re: Terraforming Machine

#19 2005-04-03 02:08:43

Re: Terraforming Machine

#20 2005-04-03 04:23:33

Re: Terraforming Machine

#21 2005-04-03 05:56:12

Re: Terraforming Machine

#22 2005-04-03 07:59:24

Re: Terraforming Machine

#23 2005-04-03 09:14:02

Re: Terraforming Machine

#24 2005-04-03 10:51:44

Re: Terraforming Machine

#25 2005-04-03 13:42:18

Re: Terraforming Machine

Board footer