The First to Mars - Who will it be?

bolbuyk · 2004-05-20 06:57:24

I wouldn't be happy if EU and ESA were brought together. EU is a very slow bureacratic instantion, ESA is much more flexible. ESA has something to concentrate on, while the EU has to concentrate on very, very much and play a lot of political games.

I hope these two will exist apart.

I'm not sure if former communist countries are really traumatized, I have also the impression that they recognize some advantages of some powerful Russian things, ao spaceflight. In 1999 a Slovakian went up in a Soyuz.

Rxke · 2004-05-20 11:38:17

Most former Soviet-related countries had one (or more) of their people sent into space by the Russians as a gesture of cooperation, so you might have a good point...RSA is a known factor for them, ESA is totally new...

And good point about the independent ESA, too... They're mainly commercial (more than 50% of launches to GEO) but for big (read:manned) stuff... I'm afraid politics will get a lot to say. Who'll be the first astronaut on mission XYZ ,blahblahblah...

bolbuyk · 2004-05-24 05:55:34

Most former Soviet-related countries had one (or more) of their people sent into space by the Russians as a gesture of cooperation, so you might have a good point...RSA is a known factor for them, ESA is totally new...
And good point about the independent ESA, too... They're mainly commercial (more than 50% of launches to GEO) but for big (read:manned) stuff... I'm afraid politics will get a lot to say. Who'll be the first astronaut on mission XYZ ,blahblahblah..

And this has to be done in about 20 languages? :band:

dicktice · 2004-05-26 09:47:19

Regarding languages: Are you bragging, or complaining? Computer realtime translation is starting to make nonsense of any such objections. The EU is pointing the way to a peaceful World of Nations.

Rxke · 2004-05-26 12:50:05

Yes, but TODAY it's a mayor headache... Imagine having to print everything 20-fold, the small army of simultane-translators etc.
The sane thing would be to do everything in English, or Lojban (forget Esperanto...) but national pride etc. makes that practically impossible...

RobS · 2004-05-26 17:09:45

I suspect we have another decade or so to go before computers get powerful enough and software sophisticated enough to reduce the work of translators. Meanwhile, the Europeans hit upon a solution a century or more ago that we Americans don't dare try: learn more than one language! The Russians at ISS learn English AND the Americans there learn Russian. I have a Russian friend in Houston who is busy translating for NASA.

I am immensely impressed by how good the command of English gets in many countries. I attended a Midsummer Party once in Sweden where even the drunk people spoke half decent English. I had to call the local train station in a little, remote Swedish town and the 75 year old train station operator apologized for his bad English and then was perfectly clear. And driving into the Netherlands once I stopped at a Mobil gas station, paid with a Shell Mastercard, and the attendant looked at it, laughed, and said in English "And you want us to take THIS?" He was joking, of course, and did take it, since it was a Mastercard.

On the other hand, I once has a very strange, broken conversation on the top of a Swiss mountain in German, and I don't really speak German. And there was the time I was staying in a lady's house in Prague and had to speak to her in my fifty words of German, she replying in her fifty words of German. Or the time in Seville when I had to speak in Persian (which I don't know very well at all, though better than German) to some people because my Spanish was wretched and no one around knew English or French. . . . Or the time a professor suggested I read a particular book in Italian and when I apologized that I couldn't read Italian he replied "Have you tried?"

Anyway, my point is that Americans should learn more languages. Shouldn't Mars people, striving to be "Marsopolitan" be cosmopolitan as well?

-- RobS

Rxke · 2004-05-26 22:44:45

'Funny' coincidence: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3751079.stm]Keep it short, please About the translation issues in the EU.

bolbuyk · 2004-05-27 06:21:04

Regarding languages: Are you bragging, or complaining? Computer realtime translation is starting to make nonsense of any such objections. The EU is pointing the way to a peaceful World of Nations.

On my school I've much complained about learning languages (English, German and French) but today I'm very happy I learned this. English, evident. German, to read some interesting writers in their own language (Freud and Nietzsche). All scandinavian countries and the Netherlands also can speak and write English rather good. But German and more France are thus proud on their language they don't like to learn another.

About the strivings of the EU: Eu is too big and clumsy IMO. The former construction I liked more EEG: 6 countries with a fluent working together for economic properties. Yet Europe is te become a very expensive factory of laws that disturb much in countries. Germany and France dictate their things and the other have to follow. OK, the EURO has some advantages, but the Gulden (we used in Holland) was also OK. The prices have been multiplied bij at least 10% because 1 E = 2.2 gulden.

When ESA is taken into the EU, its the and of European spaceflight, especcially of human spaceflight.

dicktice · 2004-05-27 06:59:43

It is not uncommon, for Swedes and Danes, who speak essentially the same language (vocabulary and syntax) to give up trying to understand their respective pronounciations(which differ greatly) and break into English. Or Yugoslavs and Greeks, having lived for years in Sweden as refugees, can now travel as tourists in each other's countries, speaking Swedish. Our kids should learn to one or two other languages, starting in kindergarten or earlier. Luckily for us, English is the language of choice internationally, so there's no need to learn another. The price of this, however, is to be "culturally challenged" in foreign lands.

Algol · 2004-05-27 07:07:59

ESA has gotten round these problems by having two official languages - English and French.

Everything is done in these languages, its a requirement that you speak one (or more likeley both) to even get a job there.

dicktice · 2004-05-27 07:12:21

Here too, more and more, in Canada. Everything you buy that is packaged, has English on one side and French on the other. A great way to learn!

bolbuyk · 2004-05-28 07:20:20

About languages in spaceflight: Russia has the problem of speaking a foreign language in comparison with Europe and USA. But what about fysical unities? In Europe and Russia the SI-unity's are held. But in the USA this system coexists along miles, psi's, pounds, feet and so on. This once resulted in a lost Mars-mission (the Mars Climate Observer). What about that?

dicktice · 2004-05-28 16:40:47

i can't believe that story about mixed-up measurement units being the cause of the lost-mars mission: Too easy to simulate the whole thing beforehand through computer simulation--iit would have been caught. Murphey'sLaw must have been at work, with not enough back-ups, due to lack of expertise by teams new to unmanned space exploration.

smurf975 · 2004-06-02 18:39:22

I suspect the Chinese view this next space race as a 200 year competition (tortoise and hare?) and they intend a re-play of that episode 500 years ago when their ocean going ships were burned. With our 4 year election cycle (and quarterly profit/loss statement mentality) we Americans are not well situated to fight or win such an extended conflict.

I'm sorry but I don't really believe that story about the the Chinese think in long term. I mean Mao killed a lot of people in his five years plans.

And also the NASA's new exploration plan or even its general plan is not based on today or tomorrow its has long view like any good government has.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-07-18 17:08:48

just have to wait, who knows what the future will bring. It's time to get things right

comstar03 · 2004-07-23 01:33:39

I think that each government and government agency that relates to particular country issues. With Private Enterprise ( non-listed entities) it doesn't have the same issues that can change their goals.

Example - Paul Allen, with the Allen Array for SETI. Another is the private space vehicel launch recently. Bring a number of multi-millionaire and billionaires together and fund privately.

SpaceNut · 2004-07-23 10:24:29

The funding is not the only problem though it is a huge one for space exploration. The bigger problem is all of the regulatory hurtles that anyone but Nasa and the Military must jump though in order to achieve space flight. That is the fence that must come down if private industry is going to prosper and grow.

comstar03 · 2004-07-23 20:03:21

Spacenut,

Go around the regulations, for example use a country not signatiry to the space treaties for the launch site, secondly, use international space to lauch through.

Thirdly, If the space powers come after the private enterprise industry for doing that, then the lawyers can get courts in particular the usa to get injunction or use the restricted practices sections of their own free trade commissions.

Don't think that they can, stop or slow down the advancement of space because they think they are the only way up there, they are not !!!!

As the President of this Society has said "it needs some mocksee" well it does, if the current space powers can not deliver then find someone or some group that can. :bars2:

SpaceNut · 2004-07-24 20:41:13

Now if we can only find a nation who's people are not p'ed at Americans and would be willing to give up enough property to build the necessary launch site, we could be in business in only a short while.
Probably not going to happen but maybe you are onto something...

Rxke · 2004-07-25 01:24:46

Sorry for the bad news, that doesn't work....
You know John Carmack, from ArmadilloAerospace (X-Prize)
In a discussion on the X-prize board, he was explaining how the regulations were hindering him to do meaningful tests etc, so of course someone said: 'move your business to XYZ,' in wich he replied :

"Ah grasshopper, let me enlighten you! As US citizens an Armadillo launch will fall under the auspices of FAA ASt regardless of whether we fly from Australia or Zambia. As such the license to launch will require both safety and environmental reviews. What Australia offers is wide open spaces and a willing spaceport operator (and good beer), but the same problems remain re licensing. Take a look at the AST pages on the http://www.faa.gov]www.faa.gov website for more info than you would ever want to know! "

comstar03 · 2004-07-25 01:50:28

Rxke,

Thanks for the heads up, on the website.

Well, that is alright in the province of USA territory , not in territory outside the United States. It will take time for anyone to develop a process to compete with the usa space program but china and japan have just started and europe has been building on its program and all these programs are outside the FAA regulatory framework.

This will continue and expand into the private sector, and the first corporation determined to build a space division of a large multi-national corporation, must also have a disaster recovery planning including recovery process against government / government agency / ies aggression by legal and non-legal activities.

People don't like other people playing in their sandbox !!!!!

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-07-29 03:41:27

Russians ?

India
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/lunar-05q.html

Chinese

Europe
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMJ9RRMD6E_index_1.html

srmeaney · 2005-07-29 04:24:45

Now if we can only find a nation who's people are not p'ed at Americans and would be willing to give up enough property to build the necessary launch site, we could be in business in only a short while.
Probably not going to happen but maybe you are onto something...

Space commonwealth: Contract out to everyone. Single Space Government Having no Earth Loyalties to anyone in particular and enough economic value to make all the earth nations look like paupers. It is exactly what we need.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2006-03-23 05:03:56

I said NASA. I think that the current administration has very little stomach for globalism

The NASA boys might, but politics at Washington is getting heated and the budget is a total mess

cIclops · 2006-03-23 11:03:21

I cast my vote and tipped the result to predict an International Cooperation being the first to Mars. If I could vote in order I would say:

1. International
2. American
3. Russian
4. European
5. China
6. Private

The International group would be very similar to the ISS cooperation namley: led by NASA with specialized contributions from RSA, ESA, JAXA and CSA, perhaps with India and Brasil. And China if they can escape from totalitarian government.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#51 2004-05-20 06:57:24

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#52 2004-05-20 11:38:17

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#53 2004-05-24 05:55:34

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#54 2004-05-26 09:47:19

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#55 2004-05-26 12:50:05

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#56 2004-05-26 17:09:45

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#57 2004-05-26 22:44:45

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#58 2004-05-27 06:21:04

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#59 2004-05-27 06:59:43

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#60 2004-05-27 07:07:59

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#61 2004-05-27 07:12:21

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#62 2004-05-28 07:20:20

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#63 2004-05-28 16:40:47

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#64 2004-06-02 18:39:22

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#65 2004-07-18 17:08:48

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#66 2004-07-23 01:33:39

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#67 2004-07-23 10:24:29

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#68 2004-07-23 20:03:21

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#69 2004-07-24 20:41:13

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#70 2004-07-25 01:24:46

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#71 2004-07-25 01:50:28

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#72 2005-07-29 03:41:27

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#73 2005-07-29 04:24:45

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#74 2006-03-23 05:03:56

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

#75 2006-03-23 11:03:21

Re: The First to Mars - Who will it be?

Board footer