Huygens Probe to Titan

No life on Mars · 2004-04-02 12:24:03

Sorry
I made a mistake. I ment Titans lander which is the Huygens probe. Probe is built by ESA and I am concern. Yes Mars Express work fine but to built probe (lander) is much more complicated.ESA has almost no expirience in that field but if NASA has superviser project that look better.

SBird · 2004-04-02 13:35:16

It's not really possible to seperate the two, lots of scientists have worked for both the ESA and NASA at one point or another. You are correct that ESA doesn't have experience landing stuff on planets but that's not such a big deal here. The Titan lander is designed to return most of its data before it hits the ground. There's all sorts of atmospheric measurements that can be done while still hanging from a parachute.

In fact, there's a good chance the lander will be destroyed when it hits the surface. We don't know if the surface of Titan is a hydrocarbon lake or rock. To save weight, ESA decided to design their lander to survive a 'wet' landing. That's easy to do and should go without a hitch. If we're wrong, and the lander hits rock, lights out... This was a compromise in the design stage that was well understood. As a result, ground measurements and pictures are going to be a bonus if it survives landing.

SBird · 2004-04-02 13:51:27

Oh yeah, almost forgot, the reason that methane is photochemically produce in Titan's atmosphere is that Titan is covered with hydrocarbons. Basically, imagine that Titan is covered in a lake of propane and candle wax. UV will break these molecules down into CH4. On Mars, there are no surface hydrocarbons to undergo this sort of breakdown.

Palomar · 2004-04-02 14:40:01

*More information on Titan rolling in. "...first-ever measurement of the moon’s atmospheric extent in X rays..."

This article in Astronomy.com "April astro bytes" (must copy and paste; link also provided):

"Titan transits the Crab and makes waves

Posted April 2, 2004

Titan I: the Crab Nebula transit

Titan is the only satellite in the solar system with a thick atmosphere, a fact even more impressive when one realizes that its surface pressure exceeds by half that at Earth’s sea level. It also extends much farther into space than Earth’s owing to Titan’s weaker gravity. While its atmospheric structure has been studied by spacecraft and probed in radio, infrared, optical, and ultraviolet wavelengths, scientists lacked direct information on its structure between an altitude of 500 and 1,000 kilometers (310 and 620 miles).

So when Saturn and its moons slipped across the Crab Nebula on January 5, 2003, astronomers monitored the event with the Chandra X-ray Observatory. The Saturn transit itself could not be observed because Chandra was passing through a zone of elevated radiation during the event, but a group led by Koji Mori of Pennsylvania State University did catch Titan’s passage. The moon cast a detectable shadow as it moved over the 2'-wide X-ray-bright portion of the Crab Nebula, the remnant of the A.D. 1054 supernova blast. **--->Mori’s analysis found the shadow to be larger than Titan’s solid surface, yielding the first-ever measurement of the moon’s atmospheric extent in X rays: 880 km (547 miles).<---** The work will appear in a forthcoming issue of The Astrophysical Journal.

The saturnian system has a conjunction with the Crab every thirty years, but transits are exceedingly rare. A conjunction similar to the 2003 event occurred in January 1296, but the remnant, which was only two-and-a-half centuries old then, was probably so small that a transit never happened. The next transit takes place in August 2267.

The Huygens probe aboard the Cassini spacecraft will study Titan's atmosphere directly in 2005."

---

Web page the article is appended to:

[http://www.astronomy.com/Content/Dynami … 6gfawr.asp]Click

--Cindy

Julius Caeser · 2004-04-02 15:06:50

Could Titans thicker atmosphere have any consequences for Huygens probe landing on the moon? ???

Palomar · 2004-04-02 16:05:10

Could Titans thicker atmosphere have any consequences for Huygens probe landing on the moon? ???

*You're referring your question to the article I posted above yours, I presume?

I haven't seen any indications from the professionals to that effect, i.e. no clamor of concern (sudden or otherwise) in that regard. Seems like we're still "smooth sailing ahead." I'll be on the look-out for any concerns related to it, though.

Anyone else?

--Cindy

jadeheart · 2004-04-02 19:30:53

So I checked out that website & wound up adding it to my faves. I was looking at the 'VLT Images of Titan' article & wondering what those bright regions could be. I looked around a little to try and cross-reference them with the data from Arecibo back in October (they bounced radar off the surface and found indications of large lakes of liquid... something). Do these bright regions represent the liquid? Compare these with the Hubble near-infrared observations [http://www.planetary.org/html/news/arti … lakes.html](link). The optical observations (these new ones and Hubble's) both found the bright region in the southern hemisphere, and I think the Arecibo obs did too, although I can't find anything now showing any kind of localization of the highly-radio-reflective regions on the surface.

I wonder how much control the Cassini flight planners will have over where Huygens will land? Could they 'aim' it to hit one of these high-albedo regions which seem more likely to be liquid (and thus maybe increase Huygens's lifetime on the surface)?

This will almost certainly be a watershed year for space exploration. Already has been, I guess.

Palomar · 2004-04-03 07:09:24

This will almost certainly be a watershed year for space exploration. Already has been, I guess.

*Hi Jadeheart. Nice to have you back. Yep, I agree.

[http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=12404]Saturnian Spots

*New finding. Seen in the southern hemisphere; two of them imaged so far. This pic was taken March 8th.

--Cindy

Julius Caeser · 2004-04-03 14:49:45

Yes,i was referring to your post Cindy...i'm just hopeful as all of you here that Huygens probe will be a success after all these years waiting to get to see what Titan looks like!

Palomar · 2004-04-05 16:06:40

[=http://www.spacedaily.com/news/saturn-titan-04e.html]Titan's "Southern Smile"

*This is an excellent article. I found another similar to it on Saturday, but this one is much more straightforward and detailed:

Astronomers, using a ground-based telescope in Chile, have
"resolved new atmospheric details on Saturn's moon, Titan, to --->image features only 120 miles across<---. The origin of atmospheric patches, particularly in the Southern hemisphere, is not presently understood, but will be a major topic to study when a surface probe descends later this year."

The article discusses the possibility of "some kind of primitive life (now possibly extinct)" there: "Scientists think Titan may have carbon- and nitrogen-containing molecules accumulated on its surface. And these primitive precursors to life might be brought even further towards life's door if liquid water makes an occasional appearance.

Studies of Titan so far have indicated enough evidence for both temporal and spatial variability, two signatures required for the presence of organic molecules."

*Discusses other chemistry issues and mentions Carl Sagan.

Also:

"A high-contrast bright feature is observed at the South Pole and is apparently caused by a phenomenon in the atmosphere, at an altitude below 140 km or so. --->This feature was found to change its location on the images from one side of the south polar axis to the other during the week of observations.<---"

--Cindy

Julius Caeser · 2004-04-06 11:30:42

Well,it looks like Hugens probe will have to have a change in its trajectory if Titans atmosphere has indeed expanded since last measured by Voyager 1...the fact that Titan is 5% closer to the sun in 2003 then during the Voyager encounter in 1980,looks to be the reason why Titans atmosphere is more massive due to increased solar heating!

Palomar · 2004-04-20 08:35:56

[=http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/titan_images_040420.html]Dog & Dragon

*Fun with Titan. Seeing shapes in Earth clouds -isn't- the limits, baby.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-04-20 23:55:31

And the speculation about huge slow-moving waves in an ethane/methane sea is pretty groovy too!

I've never heard that idea before. Amazing!

GraemeSkinner · 2004-04-21 02:10:07

And the speculation about huge slow-moving waves in an ethane/methane sea is pretty groovy too!

I've never heard that idea before. Amazing!

I'd not considered the variation in wave speed on other planets/moons being different due to gravity - its pretty cool when you think about it (and obvious ).
Now this would be good to see...

Waves grow to be up to seven times higher and longer than those on Earth," Ghafoor told SPACE.com. "However because of the lower gravity on Titan, waves on Titan will generally appear to move in slow motion."

Would certainly make surf boarding a different experience

Graeme

Palomar · 2004-04-30 06:42:27

*More information on Titan rolling in. "...first-ever measurement of the moon’s atmospheric extent in X rays..."
This article in Astronomy.com "April astro bytes" (must copy and paste; link also provided):
"Titan transits the Crab and makes waves
Posted April 2, 2004
Titan I: the Crab Nebula transit
Titan is the only satellite in the solar system with a thick atmosphere, a fact even more impressive when one realizes that its surface pressure exceeds by half that at Earth’s sea level. It also extends much farther into space than Earth’s owing to Titan’s weaker gravity. While its atmospheric structure has been studied by spacecraft and probed in radio, infrared, optical, and ultraviolet wavelengths, scientists lacked direct information on its structure between an altitude of 500 and 1,000 kilometers (310 and 620 miles).
So when Saturn and its moons slipped across the Crab Nebula on January 5, 2003, astronomers monitored the event with the Chandra X-ray Observatory. The Saturn transit itself could not be observed because Chandra was passing through a zone of elevated radiation during the event, but a group led by Koji Mori of Pennsylvania State University did catch Titan’s passage. The moon cast a detectable shadow as it moved over the 2'-wide X-ray-bright portion of the Crab Nebula, the remnant of the A.D. 1054 supernova blast. **--->Mori’s analysis found the shadow to be larger than Titan’s solid surface, yielding the first-ever measurement of the moon’s atmospheric extent in X rays: 880 km (547 miles).<---** The work will appear in a forthcoming issue of The Astrophysical Journal.
The saturnian system has a conjunction with the Crab every thirty years, but transits are exceedingly rare. A conjunction similar to the 2003 event occurred in January 1296, but the remnant, which was only two-and-a-half centuries old then, was probably so small that a transit never happened. The next transit takes place in August 2267.
The Huygens probe aboard the Cassini spacecraft will study Titan's atmosphere directly in 2005."
---
Web page the article is appended to:
http://www.astronomy.com/Content/Dynami … .asp]Click
--Cindy

*Pardon another "overlap" [this isn't from Huygens of course, but it does relate to Titan...if I posted this in "New Discoveries *3*" it might cause some confusion...why do I get the feeling this will get even trickier in a few months??? :;): ]

This ties in with what I posted previously.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap040429.html]The good people at Astropix posted this illustration of Titan passing in front of the Crab Nebula. Also includes photo of "Titan's shadow."

--Cindy

::EDIT:: They speculate this is perhaps the first time ever that Titan has made such a transit.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-04-30 07:20:50

What a year we're having!!

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-05-26 10:07:19

there are more detailed images today

http://ciclops.lpl.arizona.edu/media/dv/2004/112_113_1.jpg]

http://ciclops.lpl.arizona.edu/media/dr/2004/33_9_1.jpg]

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#51 2004-04-02 12:24:03

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#52 2004-04-02 13:35:16

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#53 2004-04-02 13:51:27

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#54 2004-04-02 14:40:01

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#55 2004-04-02 15:06:50

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#56 2004-04-02 16:05:10

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#57 2004-04-02 19:30:53

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#58 2004-04-03 07:09:24

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#59 2004-04-03 14:49:45

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#60 2004-04-05 16:06:40

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#61 2004-04-06 11:30:42

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#62 2004-04-20 08:35:56

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#63 2004-04-20 23:55:31

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#64 2004-04-21 02:10:07

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#65 2004-04-30 06:42:27

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#66 2004-04-30 07:20:50

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

#67 2004-05-26 10:07:19

Re: Huygens Probe to Titan

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