Which wold be "scarier" - Alone or not alone

Marineris Sauce · 2004-04-07 08:35:50

Hm, wasn't there another episode of Star Trek where Kirk was forced to fight Spock to the death?

It was called 'Amok Time'. Beginning of the 2nd season.

Does anyone know the name of the actor who plays Scotty,

James Doohan

I'm an ole' trekker from way back... :;):

Mundaka · 2004-04-11 18:34:05

Hazer · 2004-04-21 23:39:46

Actually, I think the scariest thing to find out would be that there is life out there--and it wants to wipe us out.

I mean, what if we meet a race of organisms who has concluded that compassion/trying to understand the other fellow's point of view is a characteristic posessed only by organisms who are an evolutionary dead-end. Thus, they decide it would be alright if they colonized Earth--with its massive quantities of water, without any regard for the 8 billion tailess monkies living there.

Immediatly, humanity is run over by wave after wave of armed colonists. Thus, we become victims of natural selection.

In the interest of my race's survival, I am a firm supporter of stepping out into the Cosmos both well-armed & dangerous.

rstones8 · 2004-04-22 09:29:05

In the interest of my race's survival, I am a firm supporter of stepping out into the Cosmos both well-armed & dangerous.

Sounds like a good plan to me. I mean just look what happened to the Native Americans... that could be the entire human race, whats' left of us living in small designated areas. Nukes and fast ships should be our gunpowder and horses, to ensure this doesnt happen.

Bill White · 2004-04-22 10:35:10

Actually, I think the scariest thing to find out would be that there is life out there--and it wants to wipe us out.
I mean, what if we meet a race of organisms who has concluded that compassion/trying to understand the other fellow's point of view is a characteristic posessed only by organisms who are an evolutionary dead-end. Thus, they decide it would be alright if they colonized Earth--with its massive quantities of water, without any regard for the 8 billion tailess monkies living there.
Immediatly, humanity is run over by wave after wave of armed colonists. Thus, we become victims of natural selection.
In the interest of my race's survival, I am a firm supporter of stepping out into the Cosmos both well-armed & dangerous.

Invading a solar system by conventional means (sic) would be damn difficult. I am partial to the idea of placing large clusters of mirrors inside the orbit of Mercury with a few thousand square kilometers of mirror concentrating the sun's rays onto a single mirror of perhaps 1/4 kilometer radius.

Then aim that sucker at the invading battle fleet.

= = =

If the mirror array starts to overheat, turn your mirrors edge on to the sun until they cool, then turn them back to focus the light and radiation on your target points.

Use mirror optics to create focal points smack dab in the middle of the enemy battle fleet.

= = =

For those who dream of giant solar collectors which can generate temperatures high enough to melt steel, below is a method for building your own Solar Furnace of any size you desire.

a hobbyist http://www.amasci.com/amateur/mirror.html]link

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story … tml]pigeon cooker

A sculpture commissioned as the crowning glory of Nottingham's new Playhouse Theatre has been put on hold, for fear it might blind people or incinerate the local birdlife.
The Turner prize winner Anish Kapoor has designed a giant dish mirror to be erected outside the theatre. However, an astronomer has warned that the mirror could focus light into a reflected beam capable of barbecuing birds in its path.

= = =

http://rhlx01.rz.fht-esslingen.de/proje … ml]Another link and quote:

Researchers create highly concentrated solar energy, called solar flux, by reflecting sunlight from precisely curved mirrors, similar to the way a satellite dish reflects radio waves to a point. Solar energy can be concentrated from a few hundred to tens-of-thousands times of the normal intensity of the sun at the Earth's surface. This intense energy creates and sustains extremely high but very localized temperatures, modest concentrations of 2500 suns can easily burn through 1/4-inch (approx. 6 mm) steel. The surface of a material exposed to high solar flux also heats rapidly while the base or substrate remains relatively unaffected. Such rapid surface heating allows advanced surface processes such as ceramic metallization and chemical vapor deposition to be performed

Building colony space craft capable of interstellar travel and carrying thousands or millions of colonists? Hard. Damn hard.

Building a few dozen solar mirror arrays capable of applying 5,000 or 10,000 times the sun's normal radiation to a point on the hull of that space colony ship? Comparatively easy.

Advantage to the Defense.

Palomar · 2004-04-22 10:47:16

Actually, I think the scariest thing to find out would be that there is life out there--and it wants to wipe us out.
I mean, what if we meet a race of organisms who has concluded that compassion/trying to understand the other fellow's point of view is a characteristic posessed only by organisms who are an evolutionary dead-end. Thus, they decide it would be alright if they colonized Earth--with its massive quantities of water, without any regard for the 8 billion tailess monkies living there.
Immediatly, humanity is run over by wave after wave of armed colonists. Thus, we become victims of natural selection.
In the interest of my race's survival, I am a firm supporter of stepping out into the Cosmos both well-armed & dangerous.
Invading a solar system by conventional means (sic) would be damn difficult. I am partial to the idea of placing large clusters of mirrors inside the orbit of Mercury with a few thousand square kilometers of mirror concentrating the sun's rays onto a single mirror of perhaps 1/4 kilometer radius.
Then aim that sucker at the invading battle fleet.

*LOL...that's good, Bill.

***
As for some other comments (not Bill's)...yes, what if aliens are like us? Payback...

But why anthropomorphize? They may be -nothing- like us. I'd lay my odds that we'll never know.

--Cindy

Bill White · 2004-04-22 10:52:31

Place a few of these mirror arrays inside Mercury's orbit to supercharge solar sail travel.

Inflatable mylar mirrors wouldn't be all that expensive (when compared to the cost of interstellar migration) and 10,000 inflatable 10 kilometer mylar mirrors (each controlled by a central computer network) could concentrate whole a lot of solar flux on a 1 kilometer mirror (built to much higher specs than the 10,000 inflated mirrors) that could be aimed.

100,000 square kilometers of insolation (measured inside the orbit of Mercury) reflected as a tight beam towards your enemy.

Marineris Sauce · 2004-04-22 14:15:37

Scariest of all? Green tentacles in Marineris Sauce -- but very tasty.

Ya, wha...? sorry, it's better deep fried, with a little HP.

In the interest of my race's survival, I am a firm supporter of stepping out into the Cosmos both well-armed & dangerous.

I agree. I recently attended a forum on the subject of the weaponization of space. Aside from being predominantly left-wing and biased, many good points were conveniently left out of the discussion in support of the idea. Hostile alien life seems like a reasonable possibility to be prepared for. Forget the 'appear to be passive' approach of pop sci-fi, that could work against us just as much as it could work for us; after all, a passive target can be an inviting and attractive lunch...
This is a Darwinist universe, after all. ???

Euler · 2004-04-22 14:48:22

Place a few of these mirror arrays inside Mercury's orbit to supercharge solar sail travel.
Inflatable mylar mirrors wouldn't be all that expensive (when compared to the cost of interstellar migration) and 10,000 inflatable 10 kilometer mylar mirrors (each controlled by a central computer network) could concentrate whole a lot of solar flux on a 1 kilometer mirror (built to much higher specs than the 10,000 inflated mirrors) that could be aimed.
100,000 square kilometers of insolation (measured inside the orbit of Mercury) reflected as a tight beam towards your enemy.

I don't think this would work. Getting a concentrated beam would be difficult, and it might not do much damage to the enemy ships if they have reflective surfaces. The enemy fleet could also use planets as shields, or dodge the beams.

Launching an interstellar invasion would be difficult, but it might not be necessary. I think a strategic nuclear bombardment would be more likely.

Hazer · 2004-04-22 17:19:05

Prepare for ET to be hostile, and hope for the best.

Dook · 2004-04-26 21:06:57

Any alien life that has the ability to travel the distance to earth certainly has the ability to annihilate the human species. Lasers/particle beam/EMR weapons all travel at the speed of light but given the extreme distances none of them would be useful weapons because in the time it would take for the beam to reach a target it could simply move out of the way. Any target approaching could simply fly an unpredictable course. Nuclear/explosive type weapons delivered by missiles would likely be even more useless unless the enemy congregates all of it's ships in a very low earth orbit. Basically, we are at their mercy.

Trebuchet · 2004-04-27 03:13:03

Talk about paranoia.

Anyways, while I doubt we're 'alone' in the strict sense of the word, if the nearest intelligent life is in a different galaxy, we're alone for all reasonable intents and purposes. Actually, I find the possibility that we're alone not frightening at all. If we die out, we're a bit to dead to care anymore, and if we don't die out and instead spread through space, the 'alone' part will be wiped out by genetic drift, engineering, and time. Besides, the entire Milky Way would be the empire of man. What's to dislike? The only downside is that we might screw up and kill ourselves. We would face that anyways; the notion that Alien Race X 10000 light years away might soldier on carrying the torch of intelligence if we wipe ourselves out isn't what you'd call reassuring.

So by default I fear aliens more than solitude. After all, who knows what kind of oddballs are out there? The aliens probably think likewise. Sometimes I imagine the following conversation taking place at a distant star:

ALIEN #1: I'm frightened of this planet. Maybe we should drop an asteroid on them or something just in case... look, this group is building nukes, and that group keeps blowing up civilians in malls! What if they joined forces?

ALIEN #2: Well, let's wait and see. Maybe the guys building nukes will get rid of the people blowing up malls.

The first alien is my great fear, that from a distant vantage point, all human cultures sort of meld together in an indistinguishable blur, and all they see is the sum of all evils.

Hazer · 2004-04-27 22:15:28

That's why we need to be heavily armed Dook. Remember, if it is a truly alien race, they might not fit to any of our assumptions about their capabilities. Heck, ANYTHING is possible as we only have one data point to consider.

Euler · 2004-04-27 23:32:43

Any alien life that has the ability to travel the distance to earth certainly has the ability to annihilate the human species.

Any alien life that can easily travel interstellar distances could destroy the human species. However, alien life that can only travel to Earth at very great expense might not be able to.

Lasers/particle beam/EMR weapons all travel at the speed of light but given the extreme distances none of them would be useful weapons because in the time it would take for the beam to reach a target it could simply move out of the way. Any target approaching could simply fly an unpredictable course.

This assumes that the target can maneuver. A solar sail or laser sail craft could have difficulties here. Also any spacecraft intended to be an interstellar nuclear missile or kinetic strike might have difficulties maneuvering.

Nuclear/explosive type weapons delivered by missiles would likely be even more useless unless the enemy congregates all of it's ships in a very low earth orbit. Basically, we are at their mercy.

We can build interplanetary missiles. Dealing with very advanced races would be impossible, but things change if they can only send a few ships (or one) with limited capabilities. The defender also has a few other advantages: the attacker cannot know what defense it will be up against when the attack is launched, and it would take decades or centuries to send reinforcements if the initial attack fails.

There are 2 very important things we should do in order to survive an interstellar war (besides building space weapons):
1. Decentralize our population by colonizing space.
2. Invest in astronomy to detect other civilizations and give warning before an attack.
Doing both of these things would significantly improve our chances of survival, though there is still a good chance that we would be lose anyway. Since these are both things that we would want to do anyway, they would definitely be good investments.

dicktice · 2004-04-28 08:25:04

Euler: Oh, you are so smart--and that's not just because I agree with every one of your conclusions! Add to Dook's list, Earth orbit-crossing asteroid "invasions," and who needs any further justification for on-going space programs?

clark · 2004-04-28 11:13:33

Dude, if we're dealing with advanced intelligent species capable of interstellar travel, and capable of launching an attack on our solar system, we're screwed. At least for right now.

If their goal is to exterminate our species, i.e. just wipe us out, they need only target our moon to cause it to smash into the Earth. Or, they could just blow up our sun. Or, they could collect all the asteroids out beyond Mars, clump them together, and send them all at Earth. Or, they could send small tiny probes (that are byond detection) filled with virii that wipe us out. Or, they could come into our solar system on a cold trajectory behind our sun (opposite of our orbit) and build the mirrors Bill suggested to fry Earth.

Colonizing space won't help if our sun blows up, and if earth goes, it is doubtful anyone would survive in space (since support from Earth is usually a prerequisite for space colonization to really work).

Aliens could also just sit outside our solar system, find a nearby star system, cause it to emit a massive dose of cosmic radiation from some controlled explosion, and wait for the resulting radiation wave to wipe out all life in our system.

REB · 2004-04-28 14:46:45

What if we started seeing normal stars going nova around a certain area of the galaxy? Perhaps the casualties of some Interstellar war?

Or what about normal stars going dark? Was it from a war, or did intelligent life build a Dyson Sphere?

I have read through this topic and I want to say a few things.

About finding humanoid life out there. This might be possible, but it is probably unlikely. A similar environment like ours may produce a similar form (Think about the fish in the porpoise. Similar environment, similar form).

Euler · 2004-04-28 20:28:33

Dude, if we're dealing with advanced intelligent species capable of interstellar travel, and capable of launching an attack on our solar system, we're screwed. At least for right now.

We are already capable of sending materials interstellar space (albeit slowly and at great expense). A species that is only slightly more advanced than us would be capable of attempting an interstellar attack if it used the most economical methods available to it. A species that is only a little more advanced would also be more likely to try and attack us because we would not represent a major threat to a really advanced species. It is an attack by these moderate tech level aliens that we are considering.

If their goal is to exterminate our species, i.e. just wipe us out, they need only target our moon to cause it to smash into the Earth.

It would be extremely difficult and expensive to deorbit a large moon in another star system.

Or, they could just blow up our sun.

How would aliens manage that with technology not much more advance than our own?

Or, they could collect all the asteroids out beyond Mars, clump them together, and send them all at Earth.

Possible, though this might not be the easiest option.

Or, they could send small tiny probes (that are byond detection) filled with virii that wipe us out.

For this they would need advanced genetic engineering and very detailed human biological information.

Or, they could come into our solar system on a cold trajectory behind our sun (opposite of our orbit) and build the mirrors Bill suggested to fry Earth.

Mirrors capable of frying Earth would have to be large and heavy, and I think that there are sufficient ways of countering this strategy.

if earth goes, it is doubtful anyone would survive in space (since support from Earth is usually a prerequisite for space colonization to really work).

They could survive on Mars and/or quickly resettle Earth.

Aliens could also just sit outside our solar system, find a nearby star system, cause it to emit a massive dose of cosmic radiation from some controlled explosion, and wait for the resulting radiation wave to wipe out all life in our system.

If super-advanced aliens really want to do things the hard way, then yes. However, if we are talking about medium level aliens, then no.

Hazer · 2004-04-28 21:59:31

The point I would like to make is this: You cannot make assumptions about extraterrestrial sentient beings-we have no data. But what you must assume is that if they were hostile, we would be able to do SOMETHING to hinder them.

Josh Cryer · 2004-04-28 23:31:11

This war stuff makes for fun story telling, but the reality is probably a lot different. I think Kurzweil's comments about aliens are probably the most likely scenario. They would be extremely smart, and extremely powerful. We would have to evolve to at least their level to have even a remote chance of winning against them (assuming they were evil), and at that point we wouldn't be the same kinds of beings we already are but more like them, so a conflict at that point would be kind of pointless.

It's like nuclear weapons, great deterrent; even though the cultures around the world are different, they're all essentially respected equally because of the power they weild. High tech will cause scenarios invisioned in this thread to be invalidated, imho.

Of course, I do accept that the psychology of these aliens could be vastly different than logic might dictate (ie, they're imperalistic morons who think procuring resources in intelligent systems rather than non-intelligent systems is a good idea), but I would still consider their invasion impossible to defeat unless we were at least as evolved as them; and even still, attackers will always have first strike ability, and there is absolutely no amount of engineering that can avoid that. Your defense grid, no matter how you design it, can be totally annihilated in one go. Every scenario has a counter scenario, this is why I think a warlike mentality is defunct. I am not saying that people wouldn't defend themselves, but if they actively look like they're defending themselves, they will be showing their weakness. A very decentralized society will at least have a surprise counterattack ability, and would be able to expend resources that otherwise would go into a circumventable defense grid on themselves.

I always seem to read threads after everyone has already stated what I think about stuff, though.

Hazer · 2004-04-29 00:44:53

I like the idea of being a decentralized species. Still, I think our assumptions may or may not apply.

Of course, I do accept that the psychology of these aliens could be vastly different than logic might dictate (ie, they're imperalistic morons who think procuring resources in intelligent systems rather than non-intelligent systems is a good idea), but I would still consider their invasion impossible to defeat unless we were at least as evolved as them; and even still, attackers will always have first strike ability, and there is absolutely no amount of engineering that can avoid that. Your defense grid, no matter how you design it, can be totally annihilated in one go. Every scenario has a counter scenario, this is why I think a warlike mentality is defunct. I am not saying that people wouldn't defend themselves, but if they actively look like they're defending themselves, they will be showing their weakness. A very decentralized society will at least have a surprise counterattack ability, and would be able to expend resources that otherwise would go into a circumventable defense grid on themselves.

Every scenario has a counter scenario, that's what makes military Sci-fi such great fun. We haven't met any "Alien races" yet, and so we have no idea of what we may expect. They might decide to land on earth and fight in a Napoleonic Wars fashion (Lots of soldiers marching in straight lines). And the funny thing is, we cannot discount that possibility.

They don't have to think like we do, talk like we do, fight like we do. That's why we consider them aliens. Earth-logic (Chuck an asteroid at them, watch the fun) might not apply.
Heck they might land, have a nasty reaction to Earth-bacteria, and die. Who knows? Perhaps they travel in massive fleets of generation ships, each generation being raised with a fanatical obsession about carving themselves a new home in the universe.

And why would a race be considered more "highly evolved" in the first place? Perhaps they are physically better adapted to survive in certain environments than we are-so are cockroaches.
Being highly-evolved might even turn out to be a disadvantage, depending on what environment they have evolved to fit.

It has nothing to do with evolving to their level, it has to do with finding an effective counterplan-or counterweapon. But really does having better technology make you a more highly-evolved individual? I think it just makes you more likely to survive.

Josh Cryer · 2004-04-29 01:17:42

Yeah, you hit it, though, what's the point of basing our society around something we can't really expect. We can't necessarily expect everything, that's precisely why we have varying opinions here. I say, expect nothing, do anything you want, and deal with the issues when they arise. But of course, I am biased in that I think that such species are highly unlikely. We might like to be fanciful and think that scifi is a good reflection of the universe, but it's probably more like 1) life is really damn rare, and 2) it takes a really intelligent species to get into space and get anywhere.

And in every war, it has always been the smarter, better equipped and more skilled entity who has won.

REB · 2004-04-29 11:07:16

Hazer, have you read Harry Turtledoves, WWII books?

For those who have not read this 6 book set, lizard like aliens invade the Earth During WWII. The human race has to stop fighting amongst themselves and start fighting this new enemy.

When I first heard the premise, I thought, “No way. Aliens capable of Interstellar travel would easily kick our butts back in the 1940’s.” But Mr. Turtledove does an excellent job convincing the reader it is possible for humans of that era to defend themselves from the invading aliens.

These aliens are slow to adapt to new situations. They depend on slow, well tested, planning. They don’t like change. They also assume they are the superior race of the galaxy, so they are overconfident. They have existed as a society for over 50,000 years and have conquered two other planets with two semi-intelligent races. They figure they pretty much know all there is to know.

Probes they sent to Earth showed primitive humans who got around on horses and carried swords for weapons, so they planned the invasion force accordingly. Since they are held to the laws of physics and can not go faster than the speed of light, what they send will have to do for many years.

They find not only are humans more advance than the probes reported, they are also very clever. Their captured technology helps humans advance at an even quicker pace.

They come from a desert world, and the other two worlds they occupy are also more land than water. The idea of boats never occurred to them and they fail to watch the oceans- a big mistake. They also hate the cold climates, and they discover they become drug addics when exposed to ginger.

The aliens could nuke humans off the planet, but that was not in their plan, plus it would make colonization efforts difficult.

The humans, on the other hand, still have their own baggage dragging them down. Russia, Germany and America still don’t trust each other, even though they must work together.

It is a very good series of book. I still need to read the last one, for I do not know how it all ends.

Cobra Commander · 2004-04-29 11:11:00

Of course, I do accept that the psychology of these aliens could be vastly different than logic might dictate (ie, they're imperalistic morons who think procuring resources in intelligent systems rather than non-intelligent systems is a good idea),

What if it's not about resources? Perhaps earth-like planets are rare, and therefore valuable to any who evolved in similar environments. In that case, the planet is the resource, and it's still easier, more efficient, to destroy the inhabitants than look elsewhere. Such a position is perfectly rational, despite being utterly at odds with your reasoning.

And in every war, it has always been the smarter, better equipped and more skilled entity who has won.

No argument. In which case we have work to do.

If nothing else building a massive space navy creates jobs, thus enlarging the tax base to pay for social programs for all the people who don't have jobs. Or just solve that and build a bigger space navy... Maybe it's not just about kickin' alien butts across the cosmos.

clark · 2004-04-29 11:30:32

Since we're devolving down the what if lane...

What if aliens hold that Earth is their "Mecca", or holy land, which was bequeathed to them by their pagan alien god? :laugh:

Ah, religious fanatics with the righteousness of a belief, and superior guns. [sigh] American foreign policy. :;):

Perhaps if they are sufficiently advanced enough, they could fling a quantum singularity of sufficient size into Earth (read, Black Hole).

Or, drop some large sized chunks of rocks (or even their own ships) into the ocean, and let the ensuing tsunami's wipe out the coasts. Enslave what's left.

They don't habe to kill us to win, they just have to break our societal organization to the point where we become nothing more than bands of smart monkeys who can throw rocks. If you destroy the underpinnings of civilization, we regress a thousand years. We can lose the ability to read in a single generation.

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