Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

cassioli · 2004-04-06 01:30:56

This remebers me something:

[http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1344 … 14L7M1.JPG](zoom)

Some years ago, I had a walk on Mount Etna, an Italian volcano: it was covered with one or two meters of snow, and over the snow there were some centimeters of gray dust, due to an eruction of some days before. Under the snow, there were some areas were hot lava was still flowing, and this caused the dust-covered snow to sink, creating "craters" similar to these ones, which do not look like impact craters, but look like originated by soil sinking, in my opinion.

I hope I'll be able to find old photos about what I am talking about.

Luca

Rxke · 2004-04-06 01:53:35

Interesting idea... But it is not on a vulcano-crater-floor.

Probably just old impact-craters, but i have a *wilder* idea: suppose there are remnants of life on that plains, underground, and they 'eat' rock... causing the surface, over time, to cave in, because some of their metabolising changes part of the soil into gases (methane, for instance, heh) wich escape... leaving 'holes'...

But these isolated 'pits' would mean the organisms stay close together, maybe living off some isolated concentration of (fill in your favourite yummy chemical)

cassioli · 2004-04-06 02:13:30

Interesting idea... But it is not on a vulcano-crater-floor.
Probably just old impact-craters, but i have a *wilder* idea: suppose there are remnants of life on that plains, underground, and they 'eat' rock... causing the surface, over time, to cave in, because some of their metabolising changes part of the soil into gases (methane, for instance, heh) wich escape... leaving 'holes'...
But these isolated 'pits' would mean the organisms stay close together, maybe living off some isolated concentration of (fill in your favourite yummy chemical)

This is a very wild idea... :;):

I think that the surface temperature is suitable for existence of ice, and that underground volcanic activity could explain why it is not detected from orbit; maybe there could be no hot lava under those craters, but just warm water flowing under the frozen surface, causing sinking in some areas were ice is thinner.
Warm water could be the result of hot lava warming it butfar from here... I think Opportunity should follow the crater (which actually looks more like a rut than like a creater), to see where it come from, or where it goes to. (I am thinking to something like underground river).

Luca

Shaun Barrett · 2004-04-06 03:06:18

Interesting ideas.
Another no less stimulating idea concerns something we do actually know, rather than stuff we can only speculate about.
We now know that Opportunity's landing site was once the shallows of a salty sea. If you have a colour-coded topographical globe of Mars, it's easy to see that if Meridiani, which is more or less at the datum level on Mars, was under water, then absolutely enormous areas of Mars must also have been inundated. In fact, vast areas of Vastitas Borealis (the smooth low-lying northern plains) must have been under some kilometres of water!

Sometimes I think this logical extrapolation of the simple facts we now know to be true is being overlooked. Mars must have had extensive oceans, at least temporarily.
I find this new information to be quite profound but nobody seems to be oohing-and-aahing about it.
???

Arccos · 2004-04-06 03:39:45

But you must consider this fact: Some parts of Mars surface may have been rised by tectonics (etc.). Don't forget that even Himalay on the Earth has tracks of an ancient sea and we don't think that this sea was once 18kms deep...

Rxke · 2004-04-06 03:40:13

OOOOH! AAAAH!

(Heehee...)

No, you're right, absolutely, we don't 'stop and think,' for the moment, too much new stuff coming in daily... I guess, once the mission is over, there will be an avalanche of papers coming our way, heck, one day of observations could fill a careers' worth of papers, i'd think...

These missions will prove to be THE milestone in our understanding of Mars, i'm sure... But it will take a while to piece the puzzle together. Geologic, chemical, climatological,... insight will be expanded immeasurably, the coming years. New questions, too, and a better idea of what we will want as science-packages in the next rovers/landers...

Mars, people, Mars... Enigmatic, beautiful Mars, showing us unanticipated wonders, almost every day again... Even through the eyes of some sluggish, remote-controlled golf-carts on steroids. Imagine what wonders real people would be able to show us, there... I bet them humans wouldn't be able to decide in wich direction to run first, the initial day, so much to see...

Palomar · 2004-04-06 05:02:51

*Is it just me, or does it seem the major space/astronomy e-news servers have suddenly gotten very quiet regarding S & O updates?

I hardly see anything about the rovers anymore at the sites I regularly check.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-04-06 05:05:04

Thanks Rxke!
I feel a lot better now that somebody has oohed-and-aahed in the appropriate manner!

And thank you Arccos for your thoughtful response about tectonics and how they may have affected elevations on Mars - thus clouding the issue as regards 'water catchment' areas (not in the precipitation sense ,I hasten to emphasise).
However, few authorities on martian geological history think Mars has experienced any significant tectonic activity in the past 3 billon years or more. Though I do admit our present knowledge is sketchy, to say the least. Even a layman's cursory glance at a topographic globe of Mars, reveals that much of the major water erosion must have occurred since any significant mountain building caused by plate movement, assuming there was ever any plate movement in the first place (as yet unproven, though there are tantalising hints).
There seems little doubt, at least to me, that the era which saw Opportunity's region of Meridiani bathed in the shallows of a salty sea, was the same era which saw large areas of Arabia Terra eroded by water, and which saw the deposition of sediment which made the northern plains among the smoothest large-scale expanses of terrain in the entire solar system (rivalled only by the abyssal plains of Earth's oceans).
While I understand your perfectly reasonable objection to my post, Arccos, I have still to hear an argument which dissuades me from my conclusion that Mars was very much a water-world in the past.

Rxke · 2004-04-06 12:06:10

Opportunity shot a very nice and seriously brighter (but little bit more fuzzy, in my opinion) pic of the white stuff... Looks remarkably like the sedimentary rocks it studied in its landing crater...

[http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1N1344 … 1.JPG.html]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1N1344 … 1.JPG.html

so it might be safe to assume the white stuff we see near the horizon, at the big crater it is heading to, will be scattered sedimentary rocks?

Rxke · 2004-04-06 12:16:31

Oh, yes, Shaun... I've read several times Mars might've had more water initially, percentage-wise, than Earth, so...

And i'd think, once the whater disappeared, wouldn't the landmasses, previously covered by it, slowly rise (again), like parts of Europe *still* slowly rising after the last ice-age (wich loaded billions of tons of ice on the surface...) Or does that only happen with a molten core?

By coincidence, i'm re-re-re-... reading Red Mars, and the part about the aquifier-outbreaks... That must've been something, the Noachian period... All that mass-wasting, you can *still* see the traces, everywhere you look, today... Wich makes me wonder... That liquid water hasn't been around that very long, or you'd see much more water-erosion, no?

Rxke · 2004-04-06 13:47:23

*It's party time!*

Congratulations, Spirit, for successfully fulfilling your primary mission!

[http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sp … 40406.html]http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sp … 40406.html

And the best news: extended mission 'till SEPTEMBER! :band:

atomoid · 2004-04-06 14:34:22

Yes, Mars apparently does have [http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/newsroo … 0306a.html]a molten core. but i think the crust will compress and bouce back to a certain extent on its own regardless. the molten core idea as far as im aware is mainly implicated in that volcano vs ice age theory about the heavy ice sheets compressing the mantle and core to alter tectonic plate interactions and, like hydraulic fluid, squeeze out more volcanic activity to effect global cooling and warming cycles and ice ages.

The concept of ice sheet rebound is something I hadnt considered on Mars before, but it follows and might help explain why the area of Meridiani is now a very gentle slope (i cant find the reference, but thats what i read anyway), not suggestive of a probable site for a water basin, as a result, the mission scientists had discounted the possiblilty of a sea being here early on. So perhaps the topography looked different when this area was covered by a heavy ice sheet which eventually melted into a shallow (or deep) ice sheet and berg-covered sea, and then, as the weight was relieved by the dissapearance of the ice and water, the terrain slowly bounded back from its basin-like topography to the gentle grade we see today.

Palomar · 2004-04-06 15:21:33

[http://www.space.com/imageoftheday/imag … 40406.html]When Rovers Phone Home

*Don't anyone please say "nanoo-nanoo" :-\

Thanks.

--Cindy :laugh:

Rik: "It's party time! Congratulations, Spirit, for successfully fulfilling your primary mission! And the best news: extended mission 'till SEPTEMBER!"

*Party Time! Excellent!

Rxke · 2004-04-06 22:45:48

Thanks, Atomoid, for the refresher... Had that all stored somewhere in my brainzzz, but i lost the index cards

And i think it will be virtually impossible to make a fairly accurate 'map' of said rebounding... It would take some more hard data of exactly where the water/ice was, in the past... Hmmm... Another battleground for geologists?

Cindy.... Nanoo nanoo? Aren't you mixing up your childhood classics? That's Mork and Mindy,... Wasn't it E.T. that tried to "phooooooooone hOOOOooooome?"

Palomar · 2004-04-07 05:17:52

Cindy.... Nanoo nanoo? Aren't you mixing up your childhood classics? That's Mork and Mindy,... Wasn't it E.T. that tried to "phooooooooone hOOOOooooome?"

*Teenage classics, actually. I'm probably the only person in the Western hemisphere who -wasn't- "taken" with E.T. As for "nanoo-nanoo"...it just popped into mind. Teehee

["Mork calling Orson! Come in, Orson!" "Shaaaaz-BOT!"]

--Cindy

Rxke · 2004-04-08 01:31:51

Any rock hounds care to elaborate on this one? Looks like it's warped...
[http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1344 … 1.JPG.html]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1344 … 1.JPG.html

BTW, the latest pics of both S&O are really interesting (except sol 93, (EDIT: I meant Sol 92...) wich looks almost purely dedicated to calibration, lots of 'joysticks' etc...) Spirit is definitely getting closer to the hills, Opportunity is entring some interesting terrain, lots of craerish things with the whitish stuff...

atomoid · 2004-04-08 04:27:52

Any rock hounds care to elaborate on this one? Looks like it's warped...
[http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1344 … 1.JPG.html]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1344 … 1.JPG.html
BTW, the latest pics of both S&O are really interesting (except sol 93, wich looks almost purely dedicated to calibration, lots of 'joysticks' etc...) Spirit is definitely getting closer to the hills, Opportunity is entring some interesting terrain, lots of craerish things with the whitish stuff...

yet another strange bedrock overhang cranny, this just keeps getting better!

..and I was assuming that it really looked like the plains between the craters at Meridiani would be so smooth and boring, maybe soe more spherules or an odd rock or two, then Opportunity takes a brief stroll and all sorts of these incredible new amazing flabbergasting and flummoxing features pop into view, its as if the Easter bunny payed a visit to Mars.!

Rxke · 2004-04-08 04:45:17

Ow, maaaaaaan! It's just getting better and better!, Opp Sol 72 pics... Look at this: [http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1N1345 … 1.JPG.html]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1N1345 … 1.JPG.html

Stu · 2004-04-08 10:45:48

Ow, maaaaaaan! It's just getting better and better!,

Yeah... and just think of how even MORE amazing the thicker, older rock layers exposed inside Endurance are going to be!

Stu · 2004-04-08 10:52:41

Anyone any idea why the MER pics site hasn't been updated in AGES..?

[http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/]http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/mer2004/

Rxke · 2004-04-08 11:00:18

Anyone any idea why the MER pics site hasn't been updated in AGES..?

Maybe because [http://www.lyle.org/mars/]http://www.lyle.org/mars/ is doing an excellent job already?

BTW: Opportunity did a dig again: (Sol 73)
[http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1F1346 … 1.JPG.html]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1F1346 … 1.JPG.html

Same white stuff *everywhere* it seems...

Stu · 2004-04-08 12:29:34

Maybe because [http://www.lyle.org/mars/]http://www.lyle.org/mars/ is doing an excellent job already?

Same white stuff *everywhere* it seems...

Yup, I agree it's an excellent site, I check it daily. Love his work

Fascinated by the amount of "rock" Opportunity is finding. Guess I should re-write my story's descriptions of Meridiani... looks like it's not as flat and featureless as sandpaper after all... :;):

cassioli · 2004-04-08 16:00:48

Now we have [http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1528]3d color animations of Spirit's hills! :band:

Luca

Stu · 2004-04-08 17:03:46

Take a look at this pic of the area of meridiani being explored by Opportunity...

[http://mer.rlproject.com/index.php?show … 92entry692]http://mer.rlproject.com/index.p....ntry692

Few things strike me:

1. How few craters there are in the area
2. What an AMAZING stroke of luck it was that Opportunity "holed in one" Eagle Crater
3. How close Endurance Crater is, when you consider how far Opportunity has already travelled since leavinG Eagle, and
4. The interior structure of Endurance... looks like some VERY pronounced rock layers inside there on the slopes... and what is that strange double-groove feature on the crater floor? What's going on there?

Really am impatient - and excited! - about driving up the wall of that crater and looking down into it..!

Stu · 2004-04-08 17:05:24

( Should have said, I can heartily recommend

[http://mer.rlproject.com]http://mer.rlproject.com

as a source of unique pictures and informed discussion. )

New Mars Forums

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Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

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