Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Adrian · 2004-03-23 14:33:26

BTW Stu, sorry for not putting your story up yet - it'll be online tomorrow, I promise! :bars3:

atajurk · 2004-03-23 14:36:42

Aww... I was kinda hoping for petrified fungi ,
I guess this is good too.

They'll be on Earth in 2017

marsnik · 2004-03-23 14:36:59

The "microscope" camera gives 1024x1024 images representing 30x30 millimeters; this means 0.0293 mm per pixel , or 29.3 um (1 um = 1/1.000.000 of 1 meter) per pixel.
I don't know the dimension of a cell; any idea?
Luca

With thanks to Wikipedia (or maybe I shouldn't say that and let everyone here think I can rattle this stuff off the top of my head!), with an approximate resolution of 29-30um we might actually be able to detect some types of microfossils, presuming there are some...

Bacteria, at around 0.5-5.0um, are beyond this tool's detection, as are the simplest prokaryotic cells, which are in the range of 1-10um. However, >eukaryotic< cells (fungi, for example, and more complex animals) could be well within this size range, between 10-100um.

So, there you go. A definitive... maybe.

No life on Mars · 2004-03-23 16:01:32

yes pixel size at that resolution is ca. 0.03mm but one pixel is not enough because one pixel can't contain much information.
you need min. 3 or 4 pixel for se something and som optimum 6-7 pixel. That means we can se object of minimum size somewhere between 0,1-0,2 mm.Therefore we can't se microfosile at this resolution but only macrofosile.

Stu · 2004-03-23 23:36:55

I'm sure everyone who's been watching TV news reports of the Press Conference will have seen the amazing digital artwork by Kees Veenenbos...

Just a quick reminder that I interviewed Kees for NewMars last year, and that interview's in the "Interviews" section ( along with an interview with a certain Steve Squyres...) and I'll be intervieweing Kees again soon, so hopefully Adrian will take that too..

Rxke · 2004-03-24 00:27:32

Amazing.
Woke up this morning, second item in the news (Belgium): "Scientists are getting more and more indications there has once been life on Mars (!)"

Then they explained the "salt-sea" and how open water can harbour life...

So a bit of a spin/speculation, maybe to make it more news-worthy, but still... Only months ago news like this (life on Mars?) would've been surely been laughed at, surely not the second topic in the news...
Now they made it sound it was all-but sure there was once life... No 'maybe, possibly...' at all in those sentences, it sounded like all we got to do is search some more for the life that has been there...

Public/media's view of Mars is changing fast. We're now at the stage of "there *probably* has been life"

What's next? There *has* been life or there *still is* life?

No life on Mars · 2004-03-24 05:53:12

This can be organic (right middle)[http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/ … 56L6M1.JPG]Mussel shell

Shaun Barrett · 2004-03-24 06:10:46

Yes, Rxke.
I saw a clip on T.V. which showed Dr. Squyres talking about the shallow sea at Meridiani. He referred quite definitely to the inherent suitability of that environment for life to develop and flourish. There was also a very brief comment from another of the mission scientists (I believe), whose name I regret I missed, which sounded very positive about the past potential for life in the area.

My point is that the whole tone of the announcements being made was markedly different from* anything I've heard presented by NASA on the subject of life on Mars, be it past or present life.
I got the distinct impression that a paradigm shift has occurred in the way NASA views the likelihood of martian life. It seems to me that they're almost trying to prepare us for the possibility of identifiable fossils being found; a subject which, as Rxke quite correctly points out, would have been treated with a smugly superior kind of gentle derision by scientists and journalists only a few months ago.

I may be entirely out of line here, and succumbing to the irresistible romance of the Red Planet, but my guess is that the MER scientists now believe they have a better-than-zero chance of discovering a fossil when Opportunity reaches the next crater.
They've played their cards pretty close to their chests up to now; successfully keeping their conclusions under wraps until the appropriate public release dates. It's apparent that a great deal of hypothesising and discussion goes on behind closed doors until there can be no serious doubt about the subject of that discussion, which is as it should be.
The exobiologists on the team, for all we know, may already be half convinced that microbial life has played a part in the formation of some of the sedimentary features we've seen so far. They may just require a few more pieces of the jigsaw before coming out and making a definite statement.

The coming weeks and months could be very exciting.

[ * I know many of you are American and would use the form "different than".
However, the English custom is to use "different from".
Having been raised in the traditional school of grammar in London during my formative years, I prefer the latter form. Thank you for your kind indulgence! ]

Rxke · 2004-03-24 09:33:41

Is it me seeing things or are the plains also littered with some sperules?
[http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1333 … 1.JPG.html]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1333 … 1.JPG.html

GraemeSkinner · 2004-03-24 09:50:21

Is it me seeing things or are the plains also littered with some sperules?
[http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1333 … 1.JPG.html]http://www.lyle.org/mars/imagery/1P1333 … 1.JPG.html

Yes you're seeing things

No, on second glance you could be right, its hard to tell for sure off that image if its sperules or not. The image looks a bit pixelly(?) at least it does on my screen, maybe another position will show it better or different lighting.

Graeme

Stu · 2004-03-24 10:59:19

It seems to me that they're almost trying to prepare us for the possibility of identifiable fossils being found; a subject which, as Rxke quite correctly points out, would have been treated with a smugly superior kind of gentle derision by scientists and journalists only a few months ago.
I may be entirely out of line here, and succumbing to the irresistible romance of the Red Planet, but my guess is that the MER scientists now believe they have a better-than-zero chance of discovering a fossil when Opportunity reaches the next crater.

Thank you!! I thought I was going crazy having exactly the same thoughts!

Yes, I got a real gut feeling Tuesday night, listening to the press briefing, that Steve Squyres et al were quietly preparing us, and the media, for the possible discovery of fossils at Endurance in the weeks ahead, leading everyone gently away from "there's no way we'll find anything biological; we're just looking for traces of water, honest" towards "well, now we know Mars used to be wet here then it's not that huge a surprise that we've found a fossil..."

And it makes sense. The rock layers in Endurance will be thicker, and will be from deeper down ( = longer ago) too, ideal fossil-hunting territory.

I guess tho, they have a big decision coming up - whether or not to risk driving Opportunity down into a much steeper crater, from which it might not get out of...

Personally I think they'll be very tempted to do this, for the following reasons:

1. There appears to be nowhere else for the rover to go after it's explored Endurance - Meridiani looks flatter than a can of week-old Coke, so the team may well be tempted to let Opportunity live out the rest of its days exploring the layers and slopes and floor of Endurance in ever-increasing detail...

2. The pictures taken of Endurance so far - even from as far away as Eagle Crater - show what appear to be very wide layers of rock, possibly many times thicker than the rock layers at Opportunity Ledge. It's taken the team several weeks to explore Opportunity Ledge, so a thorough study of Endurance's equivalent will take much, much longer...

3. I honestly think they're smelling fossils over there in Endurance now. I seriously believe that they are preparing themselves - and us - for at least the possibility of finding something amazing in there. Endurance will offer them (and us! ) the deepest look "into" Mars yet, our best look into its history, and outr best chance for this mission at least to find biological remains or traces. Once they get Opportunity within sight of its outcrops and ledges they may well think that it's silly to go anywhere else...

Of course, this could all change once Opportunity reaches the lip of Endurance Crater and sees another, more fascinating feature on the horizon from there, but for now I think the team are rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of gazing down into Endurance at those layers.

Exciting times lay ahead my friends...

John Creighton · 2004-03-24 11:24:58

I thought that the rovers wern't sophisticated enough to identify a fossial.

Stu · 2004-03-24 12:41:48

I thought that the rovers wern't sophisticated enough to identify a fossial.

I think they'd have trouble identifying micro-fossils, yes, but my fingers are crossed (with enormous optimism, I admit!!) for something rather larger. Guess we'll just have to wait and see...

Rxke · 2004-03-24 13:35:39

... but how good are the chances to find fossils inside an impact-crater? Are there Terran analogues? Sites where you find fossils inside craters, or does the impact destroy everything?

Palomar · 2004-03-24 13:51:18

... but how good are the chances to find fossils inside an impact-crater? Are there Terran analogues? Sites where you find fossils inside craters, or does the impact destroy everything?

*Geez, those are good questions. I'll add another: If Opportunity is incapable (or unable, whichever) of finding a fossil, how long will it take to get another robot up there to do that for us? Why do I visualize another 5 years rolling by...?

--Cindy

P.S.: Shaun:

" I know many of you are American and would use the form "different than".
However, the English custom is to use "different from".
Having been raised in the traditional school of grammar in London during my formative years, I prefer the latter form. Thank you for your kind indulgence!"

*No problem. We understand; after all, you guys (Brits & Aussies) drive on the wrong -- er, left -- side of the road. :;):

Marineris Sauce · 2004-03-24 15:24:41

It seems to me that they're almost trying to prepare us for the possibility of identifiable fossils being found; a subject which, as Rxke quite correctly points out, would have been treated with a smugly superior kind of gentle derision by scientists and journalists only a few months ago.

Yes, I got a real gut feeling Tuesday night, listening to the press briefing, that Steve Squyres et al were quietly preparing us, and the media, for the possible discovery of fossils at Endurance in the weeks ahead, leading everyone gently away from "there's no way we'll find anything biological; we're just looking for traces of water, honest" towards "well, now we know Mars used to be wet here then it's not that huge a surprise that we've found a fossil..."

I honestly think they're smelling fossils over there in Endurance now. I seriously believe that they are preparing themselves - and us - for at least the possibility of finding something amazing in there.

Far be it from me to poop on anyones party. I too am carried away with the speculation and possibilities. With all due respect, there's nothing wrong with dreaming, hell, it keeps many of us going through life. On the other hand, I believe we need to keep in mind the possibility of there being NO fossils at Endurance. Perhaps a few extra spherules. Maybe we will just see more of the same as we've seen at Eagle crater. It's entirely possible. I thought we would see something remarkable at Bonneville (well, it was remarkable in and of itself, very pretty, but we do seem to be heading for the hills now...)
I don't want anyone here to hate me for saying this. I just don't like the 'big' letdowns which seem inherent when building up too much expectation and anticipation toward an upcoming event. I'd hazard a guess that many scientists are reserved for that very reason - they've been disappointed far too often in the past. I guess I'm just saying that it is possible that 'we' are reading far too much into the press conferences. Steve Squyres may be secretly harbouring exciting information none of us are aware of, Nasa may be covetously withholding some prime speculation just waiting for the right moment to spring it on its unsuspecting public, I don't know and I couldn't say. But if asked directly, I'm sure Dr. Squyres would flat out deny the possibility of fossils at Endurance until he was absolutely sure.

Speculation is such a double edged sword. ???
(I'm not claiming it isn't fun though...) :;):

atomoid · 2004-03-24 15:29:10

...The rock layers in Endurance will be thicker, and will be from deeper down ( = longer ago) too, ideal fossil-hunting territory.
...The pictures taken of Endurance so far - even from as far away as Eagle Crater - show what appear to be very wide layers of rock, possibly many times thicker than the rock layers at Opportunity Ledge. It's taken the team several weeks to explore Opportunity Ledge, so a thorough study of Endurance's equivalent will take much, much longer...

On the other hand, I think its all to likely that the deeper layers of bedrock will be even less likely to contain any fossil evidence, since in my view, life probably reached its peak of abundance and diversity in the topmost dozens of layers that weve already been examining at Eagle crater.

At this point Mars might have lost its life-favorable surface conditions and at the same time of course, also stopped accumulating layers of sediment. Therefore, the deeper layers should contain less fossil evidence, and certainly not any large multicellular fossils that we'd be able to see with the MI. At the heart of this theory is the idea that sediment accumulation goes hand-in-hand with abundance of life, and if sediment accumulation stops that would mean that the conditions favorable to life stopped as well. And life shoudl increase in its abundance and diversity as time progresses.

Alternatively, the most life-bearing layers could be deeper assuming that layer accumulation continued after life died out (life may not have been eliminated by the surface conditions changing and were killed off by other means). And Mars could have been covered-over with many eons of apparently lifeless sediment accumulation, or the only life that survived was microscopic and no macroscopic fossil evidence was being laid down after this time. The larger the layers in the bedrock would tend to suggest more changing the conditions were (catastrophic flood conditions) at the time the sedimentary layers were laid down, so these layers might have been laid down before it was stable enough for life to get a foothold and diversify. Unless life is beneath these large layers, indicating catstrophic end to macroscopic life on Mars.

Or maybe life never reached macroscopic levels and all well ever see is evidence of bacterial excretions such as layers of organics and microbial mats. IMHO I think the "termite gallery" features in the bedrock might be evidence of differential erosion produced by the existance of mineralized microbial mats, but im not a geologist or biologist, does anyone have any insight into this idea?

SBird · 2004-03-24 15:50:09

It depends upon how you mean 'identify'. There's putative microbial fossils on Earth that are highly controversial. It's not clear whether they're fossils or mineral inclusions. The whole Martian meteorite business made paleontologists reconsider many of their prior assumptions.

The problem is that there's no really good chemical indicator of whether something is afossil, it's primarily a morphological exercise which requires breaking open the rock and carefully extracting the fossil to see if it actually looks like living organism. It's not possible to do that in a meaningful way with the present rovers or any planned rovers. It really takes a person up there and then it's going to be a judgement call since we can't compare a putative fossil to organisms on Earth like we can do with terrestrial fossils.

The present rovers could find fossils if they're obbvious enough. The Rotini things that keep popping up are too ambiguous to ID with the rovers. However, if one of them ran across what looked to be a fossilized plant leaf or vertebrate skeleton, it would be pretty obvious even with the limited tools at hand.

Stu · 2004-03-24 16:45:06

...this is *EXACTLY* why I love New Mars so much, this to- and fro-ing of ideas in a lively but respectful debate

Just take a minute to think how lucky we are, guys... to be able to sit at our computers like this, scattered all around the world, watching stunning pictures coming in live from halfway across the solar system, then discuss them amongst ourselves openly and frankly, swapping our ideas and theories, hopes and dreams without censorship or fear of ridicule or worse...

Who would have imagined, when the rovers blasted off from Earth those many months ago, that we'd be expressing such optimism about fossils being found on Mars? Incredible, just incredible!

Marineris Sauce · 2004-03-24 20:23:01

Here, Here! I second that Stu! It's wonderful, and we should consider ourselves lucky that each of us live in countries where the spirit of skeptical inquiry is held at such high regard and we aren't criticized for our ability to criticize. Let's have a love in! *hug*, *hug*, *kissy*, *kiss*. :laugh:

Stu · 2004-03-24 23:32:36

Let's have a love in! *hug*, *hug*, *kissy*, *kiss*. :laugh:

(cough cough) Don't think I'd go that far old chap... British stiff upper lip and all that...

:;):

Arccos · 2004-03-25 04:47:48

Do you know what confuses me? What was first - the Eagle crater or water in the same location?
If the crater then water (sea) could'nt be there too long. The crater would be probably much more eroded (just like craters on Earth).
If water then how can it be possible that we can see almost intact outcrop with clear water engravings on it? The impact, which would create the crater later, would crush and melt it down.

Byron · 2004-03-25 05:57:19

...this is *EXACTLY* why I love New Mars so much, this to- and fro-ing of ideas in a lively but respectful debate
Just take a minute to think how lucky we are, guys... to be able to sit at our computers like this, scattered all around the world, watching stunning pictures coming in live from halfway across the solar system, then discuss them amongst ourselves openly and frankly, swapping our ideas and theories, hopes and dreams without censorship or fear of ridicule or worse...
Who would have imagined, when the rovers blasted off from Earth those many months ago, that we'd be expressing such optimism about fossils being found on Mars? Incredible, just incredible!

Yes, I have to agree!

Tis a good time to be alive, huh?

B

Rxke · 2004-03-25 06:04:37

*Yess*

Exactly what I was puzzled over...

How old is that crater? How come the sperules are intact after impact, not to mention the delicate outcropping...

A crater of that size, compares to what? in terms of released energy?

And then again, the sediment looks quite thick, so... quite long-time stable sea? ...

Julius Caeser · 2004-03-25 08:26:29

If Eagle crater was formed after the presence of water.would it not render the meridiani landscape much rockier..same goes for Endurance crater?If so, this line of thinking would give us a rough estimate as to when the area was submerged in water, provided we have reliable cratering counts for planet Mars. ???

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#26 2004-03-23 14:33:26

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#27 2004-03-23 14:36:42

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#28 2004-03-23 14:36:59

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#29 2004-03-23 16:01:32

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#30 2004-03-23 23:36:55

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#31 2004-03-24 00:27:32

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#32 2004-03-24 05:53:12

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#33 2004-03-24 06:10:46

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#34 2004-03-24 09:33:41

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#35 2004-03-24 09:50:21

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#36 2004-03-24 10:59:19

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#37 2004-03-24 11:24:58

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#38 2004-03-24 12:41:48

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#39 2004-03-24 13:35:39

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#40 2004-03-24 13:51:18

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#41 2004-03-24 15:24:41

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#42 2004-03-24 15:29:10

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#43 2004-03-24 15:50:09

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#44 2004-03-24 16:45:06

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#45 2004-03-24 20:23:01

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#46 2004-03-24 23:32:36

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#47 2004-03-25 04:47:48

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#48 2004-03-25 05:57:19

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#49 2004-03-25 06:04:37

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

#50 2004-03-25 08:26:29

Re: Spirit & Opportunity *5* - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Board footer

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!

Re: Spirit & Opportunity 5 - Let's start with new NASA conference!