Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

Cobra Commander · 2002-06-30 14:58:58

It seems reasonable to assume that violent crime isn't going to be a problem on Mars for a long time after colonization begins just by the nature of the situation. Probably two or three generations will pass before it becomes a major issue. The question is whether the colony will be prepared when it does come up. Eventually there are going to be armed criminals, there's no way around it; even if no guns are brought to the planet it's easy enough to make one (and I don't necessarily mean just firearms, a compressed gas can propel a projectile out of a tube just as well as an explosive). If the colony deludes itself into a belief that no weapons will mean no criminal activity they're going to have serious problems; if they allow personal weapons from the start then the criminals will have a harder time preying on the rest of the colony. The whole point of using a weapon is to gain an advantage, if everyone has (or could have) a weapon crime becomes a riskier business.
As for some jackass shooting a hole in the dome, I'd hope that the structures would be able to withstand a handgun bullet. I'd be deeply concerned about living inside it otherwise.

Shaun Barrett · 2002-07-02 01:48:05

Cindy exhorts us to "take care to try and raise QUALITY children".
This raises the old argument about 'nature versus nurture'.
I've heard a thousand versions of the argument and the only certain conclusion is that the argument will probably never be settled!
For what it's worth, my opinion is that 90% of what we are is programmed in at conception. The other 10% is the result of the way we're brought up .... which is not to say it doesn't matter, because it does! And we should all strive to see that all children get every chance to achieve their full potential.
My point is that despite the best of nurture, the union of two gametes is the ultimate lottery and the eventual emergence of a misanthrope is probably inevitable. To this extent, I agree with Aetius, though I feel some of his pronouncements on the nature of mankind may be just a little overstated ("filled with greed and hatred and bloodlust"). Maybe not by much, though!!
In other words, crime must ultimately appear in a Martian colony (despite Cindy's best intentions) and I suppose we'll have to deal with it somehow.

clark · 2002-07-02 10:56:00

Wow, most respected and knowledable scientist who delve into the issue of nature versus nurture never offer breakdowns on the relative influence each has on an individual, at least Shaun is brave enough to offer his well founded opinion, which I am sure is based on numerous years of experience and untold personal research.... :0

Crime will exsist in the future as long as there are two or more people sharing the same living space.

Guns on Mars? Well, aside from the fact that having high-velocity projectile weapons in a highly pressurized, confined, limited, and delicate space is incredibly stupid, I wonder what you would really do with a gun on Mars.

Protection? From what? Crime? Most people who commit crimes do so with the intent of escape- how exactly are you able to steal anything if you live in a small enclosed dome? Where can you go? Maybe you are worried about murder...ahem, simply give everyone a personal distress device that monitors their exact location within the base- I'm sure you could even get a system where it would be able to recognize all other people in the vincinity- whihc makes it much easier to find out who did it- or even just lock them off (a base should have fail-safe locks in case of depressurization) which can be used to seal a criminal in.

The simple fact is a gun is a greater danger to everyone else becuase an unintended bullet could destroy neccessary machines or cause depressuization.

A criminal with one gun is a danger, a society living in a pressurized dome with guns is short-sighted.

Adrian · 2002-07-02 12:10:23

Maybe you are worried about murder...ahem, simply give everyone a personal distress device that monitors their exact location within the base- I'm sure you could even get a system where it would be able to recognize all other people in the vincinity

I'm not confident that this kind of technological solution to a social problem will work well enough to prevent all murders. We already have personal alarm devices on Earth that send out a high volume distress call, and they're not infallible. Plus, it doesn't stop anyone from saying, "Don't press your distress button, or I throw this knife at you." As for giving everyone these devices, your perpetrator could always just leave his device at home.

clark · 2002-07-02 12:25:30

WOW, a SUPER administrator... do you have a cape?

'm not confident that this kind of technological solution to a social problem will work well enough to prevent all murders.

Why didn't you say that is what you wanted! Stop all murders... well, we could just strap everyone down for their own saftey, and feed them intravenously through a tube.

We have substantial experience on the planet earth when using guns in the prevention of murder, and they are equally ineffective. Why continue to use the same system?

We already have personal alarm devices on Earth that send out a high volume distress call, and they're not infallible.

But earth is a different game then a pressurized and confined dome. by neccessity, all areas on a mars base will have to be electronically monitored. Linking the distress signal to an increase in heart rate or any number of physiological responses to danger by the human body would be more effective. And yes, there will be ways to counter act the system- thank you human ingenuity- however, what I am suggesting is less dangerous to the ENTIRE population.

Think of it like this, do you feel comfortable with all of your neighbors owning and operating a nuclear weapon? That is effectively what you give anyone with a gun in a pressurized dome you give them the ability to destroy you and everyone else. It's silly.

Plus, it doesn't stop anyone from saying, "Don't press your distress button, or I throw this knife at you."

No, nothing stops someone who is determined and willing to trade their life for the goal (look at Isreal, Cuba, and countless other examples of this insight)- however, the likelyhood of crime occuring is lessened when the ability to accomplish the crime undetected is reduced.

If we put a camera at an intersection, we eventually end up with LESS people running the light, not more. Children are more likely to cheat if they think they can get away with it- and less likely when they think they won't. It's very simple.

As for giving everyone these devices, your perpetrator could always just leave his device at home.

True, but I think it is reasonable to assume that some sort of integrated monitoring system could be devised that could deal with this... maybe the doors don't open unless you are wearing YOUR ID device...

Would you feel comfortable spending 8 hours on a plane where everyone was armed? Why would you feel comfortable LIVING in the same conditions?

Adrian · 2002-07-02 14:27:40

I've been a 'Super Administrator' for as long as this forum has been online - has it taken you this long to notice?

True, but I think it is reasonable to assume that some sort of integrated monitoring system could be devised that could deal with this... maybe the doors don't open unless you are wearing YOUR ID device...

Aha. So what is this? Ubiquitous and persistent tracking of every individual in the colony? Personally, I don't have a problem with this, but the civil liberties guys will. Imagine the potential for abuse of power with something like this.

Would you feel comfortable spending 8 hours on a plane where everyone was armed? Why would you feel comfortable LIVING in the same conditions?

Of course not. I don't like guns myself, I prefer living in a country with gun control. But then I'm playing devil's advocate, as you so often do

clark · 2002-07-02 14:37:45

I've been a 'Super Administrator' for as long as this forum has been online - has it taken you this long to notice?

Well, yes, I assume it was only becuase you had to keep your identity secret. Does krptonite make you a normal Administrator? Or is this all some weird British thing?

Aha. So what is this? Ubiquitous and persistent tracking of every individual in the colony?

Much safer and saner means to conduct life in a pressurized environment in vacumn, but hey, what do I know. Knowing your location at all times is much different than WATCHING what you are doing at all times.

Personally, I don't have a problem with this, but the civil liberties guys will. Imagine the potential for abuse of power with something like this.

Civil liberties in space will be fundamentaly different than our expereince here on Earth based on the neccessity caused by the environment in which people choose to live. A domed environment is a fancy way of saying "people fishbowl"- a fishbowl is nothing more than a prison. It is a prison I assume that people are choosing to freely live in, but a prison all the same- anyone at the control switch can disable air, water, power- any of which KILLS everyone. Worrying about being located at any given moment should be the least of concerns.

Of course not. I don't like guns myself, I prefer living in a country with gun control. But then I'm playing devil's advocate, as you so often do

Isn't this like the Pope arguing against Catholiscm?

A Brit arguing for guns! To an Yank no less- our ancestors would be turning over in their grave.

Palomar · 2002-07-03 13:49:21

Cindy exhorts us to "take care to try and raise QUALITY children".
This raises the old argument about 'nature versus nurture'.
I've heard a thousand versions of the argument and the only certain conclusion is that the argument will probably never be settled!
For what it's worth, my opinion is that 90% of what we are is programmed in at conception. The other 10% is the result of the way we're brought up .... which is not to say it doesn't matter, because it does! And we should all strive to see that all children get every chance to achieve their full potential.

*Yipes! It wasn't my intention to bring up the "nature versus nuture" debate at all

Since this aspect has emerged in the thread, however, I'll address it with my ideas: I don't think it's a "versus" thing at all. What individuals become is, IMO, a ::combination:: [to what degree or percentages I think is impossible to calculate] of nature, nurture, intelligence, traumas, perception skills, temperament, willingness [or lack thereof] to learn from mistakes and avoid repeating them, examples set by authority figures, willingness [or lack thereof] to exercise one's own free will, level of ambition, sense of destiny, etc., etc.

Everyone is a unique being with unique sets of experiences and ways of reacting to the experiences in their lives. To try and lump all of this into an "either/or" category [i.e., nature or nuture] is so overly simplistic as to be really dumb.

I've known people who came from crappy, abusive homes who turned out to be responsible, honest, dependable people. A best friend of mine in childhood grew up in a home which was spic 'n span, her parents were responsible, etc., and she grew up to marry a slovenly man and they essentially live in a pig's stye. I knew of one family of 6 children, 5 of whom grew up into solid, dependable, honest, hard-working citizens...and 1 of whom turned out to be a thief, con artist, robber, eventually became a murderer, and is now in prison for life.

Go figure.

I suppose saying "try and raise quality children" is an overly simplistic statement as well. However, what I meant by this was provide them with a good education, affection, and attention -- things most children need and crave.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2002-07-05 02:56:12

Hi Cindy!
Sorry if I've opened a can of worms with the nature/nurture thing! And I do know where you're coming from with the loving environment for kids advice ... couldn't agree more.
Already, I think my audacity in expressing a personal opinion about how much is nature and how much is nurture has elicited awe and admiration from Clark, who writes: "... at
least Shaun is brave enough to offer his well founded opinion, which I'm sure is based on numerous years of experience and untold research ...".
He flatters me, I think, in view of his own far superior courage. To be in a position to dismantle almost anyone's opinion on almost any subject and to explain to them, with such incisive precision, why their premise is entirely baseless, requires more bravery than I'll ever have.
Clark .... I salute you!!

clark · 2002-07-05 09:48:54

Already, I think my audacity in expressing a personal opinion about how much is nature and how much is nurture has elicited awe and admiration from Clark,

Teach me.

He flatters me, I think, in view of his own far superior courage.

It is you who flatters.

To be in a position to dismantle almost anyone's opinion

Not just Anyone's.

on almost any subject

Well, not every subject.

and to explain to them, with such incisive precision, why their premise is entirely baseless,

Not really "baseless", I prefer to think of it as "mistaken".

requires more bravery than I'll ever have.

I find it requires patience more than anything.

Thanks for the salute Shaun.

To keep with the discussion however, child development related to the nature vs. nurture debate is continually being debated. My understanding though is that genetics is merely the potential, or suseptability to certain thinks- you may predisposed to be alcoholic- but that won't make you alcoholic in and of itself- it only means compared to others, you have a greater chance of becoming one.

Think of genes as lottery tickets (the nature)- as we develop, lottery tickets are called in (the nurture)- if we have the ticket number, then we "win" the genetic predisposition lottery. Certain genes give you better or worse odds at developing into whatever it is that the environment is inducing.

The really facinating part of all of this is that we are now approaching the point where we can completely do away with the nature side of the equation. Through genetic manipulation, any of the "bad" genetic predispositions (for disease at least) can be screened out, leaving nurture as a greater component for human development.

Or put simply: Nature provides the canvas- some small, small large; some gray, some white- but all are ultimetly blank. Nurture provides the paint for the canvas.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-07-03 09:09:50

Government Employee(s) Leak Gun Owner Database?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin … sonal-data

Older discussion on newmars
Jung & Atrophy of Instinct https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3712 , Invincible Mars https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10202

Iceland no standing army but limited military,

No Armed Force nation of Andorra, Marshall Islands,
Grenada, Nauru, Solomon Islands , Vatican City although the Swiss Guard protect the Vatican, The Royal Saint Lucia Police maintain two small paramilitary forces, Samoa.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-07-03 09:17:32)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-03-29 14:21:09

Firearms and a 2nd Amendment?

Switzerland: Lots Of Guns, But No Mass Shootings
https://ultraswiss.substack.com/p/switz … ut-no-mass

'Why The Philippines Has A Lot of Guns But Few Mass Shootings'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB-Li28vrcM

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-04-01 06:07:01

no military bases in Antarctica.

The Only Gun in Antarctica Keeps the Peace, Enforces the Law in World's Most Remote Town
https://www.smobserved.com/story/2021/1 … /6277.html
"Only the Station Master has the key to the only firearm for 2,000 miles, a shotgun in a locked cabinet. I only saw him take it out once ...."

an Opinion not mine

Replace Second Amendment with one that makes sense in the blood-soaked 21st century | Opinion
https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/op- … 00460.html
'I have a carry permit. I had to be fingerprinted and pass an elementary course to be sure I knew how to handle a gun. Just like driving a car.'

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-01 07:02:04

For Mars_B4_Moon re #38 and topic in general ...

This post is inspired by your quote in #38 about concealed carry....

Yesterday I went shopping for a clothing item, at a large regional Outdoor Outfitter .... I don't remember seeing this before, but I paid attention this time...

At the main entrance, there is now a kiosk/desk with signs and images inviting guests to check in their weapons, if those weapons were being brought on premise for service or exchange or possibly other reasons (I didn't read all of that part of the display). What really caught my eye was language directed at concealed carry carriers ... The signage asked the concealed carry carriers to keep their weapons concealed.

The state where I live has been gradually extending the limits of what is considered "normal" behavior, but this is the first time I've had to deal with the impact of those changes in a retail establishment.

I've read plenty of science fiction, and plenty of that was dystopian. Science fiction writers have imagined futures which might be imagined to evolve from the situation we have today in the United States. It may be too late to try to change the trend line, at least in the United States.

There sure doesn't seem to be much reason for optimism.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-06-18 15:00:29

the sad tragic irony is Chicago is one of those 'Gun Controlled' cities but the culture is Lawless

Chicago shootings: At least 40 shot, 4 killed in weekend gun violence across city, police say

https://abc7chicago.com/chicago-shootin … /13397768/

1 dead, 22 wounded in mass shooting at Juneteenth celebration Illinois

https://www.yahoo.com/news/1-dead-22-wo … 31953.html

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-06-18 15:02:20)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-06-24 11:14:37

an oppressed Citizen and Civilian with No Guns a President who acts like a Tyrant invader but losing control.

rumors online say the islamic jihadi mohammedan Military type will soon arrive

what happens if they over run sites with WMD tech, will they steal it?

Crowds of Russians gathered at the Central Station of Rostov.

https://twitter.com/CitizenFreePres/sta … 9508748289

quote

'They are trying to flee town before expected clashes begin between the Wagner Group and Chechen soldiers who are entering the city.'

Countries that guarantee the right to keep and bear arms include the Czech Republic, Guatemala, Ukraine, Mexico, the Philippines, the United States, Yemen, and Switzerland.

The Bill of Rights 1689 allowed Protestant citizens of England to "have Arms for their Defence suitable to their Conditions and as allowed by Law" and restricted the ability of the English Crown to have a standing army or to interfere with Protestants' right to bear arms "when Papists were both Armed and Imployed contrary to Law" and established that Parliament, not the Crown, could regulate the right to bear arms
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/Willa … troduction
,
https://web.archive.org/web/20140714182 … in/A727265

Since 1953, it has been a criminal offence in the United Kingdom to carry a knife (with the exception of non-locking folding knives with a cutting edge of 3 inches (7.62 centimetres) or less) or any "offensive weapon" in a public place without lawful authority (e.g. police or security forces) or reasonable excuse (e.g. tools that are needed for work). The cutting edge of a knife is separate to the blade length.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-06-24 17:12:22)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-10-22 05:44:26

No more strict Israeli Gun-Controls?

Israel Eases Guns Restrictions Amidst Security Failures
https://reason.com/2023/10/13/israel-ea … -failures/

to arm 'as many citizens as possible' after terrorist attacks and hostage taking

'Israel eases gun restrictions for civilians.'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPnovdPsStI

Despite militarized society, Israel has strict gun laws
https://azjewishpost.com/2012/despite-m … -gun-laws/

tahanson43206 · 2023-10-22 06:38:02

For Mars_B4_Moon re restoration of this topic from 2002 ...

Today I read the topic from the top ... Those discussions from 20 years ago seem (to me at least) as valid today as then ... China has made a lot of progress in 20 years. The full-surveillance state was starting to develop 20 years ago, but it's nearly complete by now.

The Nature-vs-Nurture debate was reasonably well thought out.

Palomar brought up the variability of results when raising children in various circumstances.

I miss Palomar. I don't miss Clark.

I wish this topic had an answer to the opening title question, but it does not.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-01 07:19:02

National Guard Shoots at Minnesota Driver

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH89VIEKzRc

This 'Released Video' was during the riots by BLM Antifa for George Floyd an African American with multiple arrests, ex-con, drug dealer and drug addict who died after arrest. The media painted a picture of 'Racist Cops' and a Black guy who did nothing, they played video of the knee on the head on repeat for about 2 weeks like watching an occult horror movie ritual, during Covid high level lockdowns this led to politicians and sports ball players taking a knee and violent George Floyd protests, it lead to people forming break away regions called 'The Chaz' or 'The Chop' wide spread burning and looting and murder across multiple cities, protests spreading to Australia, Canada and French and British cities, $1–2 billion in insured damages in the United States, Plans to disband the Police Departments

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-03-01 11:50:35)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-03-23 09:18:49

For the moment 'Space Pirates' or 'Space Terrorist' only exist in works of fiction

Islamic State releases photo of alleged attackers in Russia shooting
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/is … 024-03-23/

35 Somalis Arrive in India to Face Trial Over Ship Hijacking
https://www.voanews.com/a/somalis-arriv … 39636.html

Telegram social media network hiring terrorism

https://files.catbox.moe/zpl16k.mp4

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-03-23 09:23:53)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-04-12 11:28:54

Akron police officer who shot 15-year-old April 1 was fired, reinstated in 2021
https://www.yahoo.com/news/body-worn-ca … 12214.html

The body-worn camera footage shows the moment when Westlake shot and struck the hand of a 15-year-old boy who allegedly pointed a gun that turned out to be fake at Goodyear Heights homes.

Russia developing 'troubling' new anti-satellite weapon, US says
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68309496

Russia is developing a "troubling" new anti-satellite weapon, the US has said, but it emphasised that Moscow has yet to deploy it.

US and Japan push for ban on nuclear weapons in space with UN security council resolution
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ … stract.com

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-04-12 11:30:07)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2024-06-14 13:50:14

US Federal Law to protect the public and Restrictions on the Possession of Firearms

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, also enforces federal gun laws

banning of people convicted of serious crimes from owning guns

politics

GREG GUTFELD: Hunter Biden conviction gives Trump a 'golden opportunity' to condemn it
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/greg-gu … ty-condemn

a live event with drugs alcohol

'Did Atlanta Police Shoot Too Many Time - I Say No & Shooting Was Justified'
https://www.bitchute.com/video/xkchTHtMCmg/
social media channel Think Like A Cop

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#26 2002-06-30 14:58:58

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#27 2002-07-02 01:48:05

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#28 2002-07-02 10:56:00

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#29 2002-07-02 12:10:23

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#30 2002-07-02 12:25:30

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#31 2002-07-02 14:27:40

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#32 2002-07-02 14:37:45

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#33 2002-07-03 13:49:21

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#34 2002-07-05 02:56:12

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#35 2002-07-05 09:48:54

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#36 2022-07-03 09:09:50

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#37 2023-03-29 14:21:09

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#38 2023-04-01 06:07:01

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#39 2023-04-01 07:02:04

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#40 2023-06-18 15:00:29

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#41 2023-06-24 11:14:37

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#42 2023-10-22 05:44:26

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#43 2023-10-22 06:38:02

Re: Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

#44 2024-03-01 07:19:02

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#45 2024-03-23 09:18:49

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#46 2024-04-12 11:28:54

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#47 2024-06-14 13:50:14

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