Martian Security - Should guns be allowed?

Adrian · 2002-06-20 16:05:58

Thread moved to Civ-Culture forum - more appropriate given its content.

Phobos · 2002-06-20 17:06:35

I often thought about how a terrorist in a Mars colony might operate against people in his own colony without endangering his own life, but the threat of another colony coming over to whack another one is twenty times scarier. Guns are low tech, they'd be easy to make, and with all of that rocket fuel around colonists might make crude missiles to puncture habitats. If a government on Earth ordered one of its Mars colonies to wipe out another but keep its structures intact, the government might be able to ship a nuetron bomb on a spaceflight of peace as an efficient way for the attacking colony to wipe out the residents of the target colony but keep the structures and equipment in salvageable condition.
I believe the attacking colony would probably have very high chance of destroying their enemies. By time the defenders suited up and ran out of their living spaces it'd be all over.

Aetius · 2002-06-20 17:48:40

I believe that self-defense weapons should be allowed to private individuals, but not guns. The potential for someone to cause catastrophic failures in the life support system (dome breaches, carbon dioxide scrubber damage, et cetera) is just too great.

Firearms (adapted to conditions on Mars) should belong only in the hands of the police and militia forces, in my opinion. In the close quarters which colonists will live for generations, the old adage "If Guns Are Outlawed, Only Outlaws Will Have Guns" no longer applies. The threat of permanent exile (or death by gradual exposure to the Martian air) should be enough to deter such individuals from smuggling weapons into the city.

As I said, I think private individuals should be allowed to carry weapons for self-defense if they choose. Daggers and even small swords are easily concealed, and can be quite effective at preventing aggression against law-abiding citizens. Completely disarming the men and women of the domed cities may seem like the politically correct thing to do. But leaving them defenseless is just asking for a wave of theft and rape, once the population increases and the habitat loses its small-town ambience. Just my $.02
???

Aetius · 2002-06-20 18:09:57

A very effective manner of attacking an adversary's Martian colonies was discussed in Kim Stanley Robinson's "Mars Trilogy". Sabotaging a habitat's atmospheric scrubbers (and hacking its environmental control computers) might allow you to incapacitate (or even kill) most of the colonists, while leaving almost all of the costly and intricate life support infrastructure completely undamaged. Even a neutron warhead does nasty stuff to metal, so I've heard.

Perhaps groups of expert computer hackers and stealthy 'Black Ops' soldiers could form the backbone of future Martian surface warfighting capabilities.

A surprise attack from an adversary's space-based assets is always possible. A colonial government might also be wise to invest in a system capable of striking enemy cities, even if its entire populace has been killed or incapacitated.

Aetius · 2002-06-22 16:02:03

Perhaps they could use explosive mixtures containing two or more separate substances, which would be combined just before use.

Aetius · 2002-06-22 16:06:52

Good point about the perimeter movement detectors. As long as nobody can hack the security program, your colony would be protected against infiltration by Special Forces-type units.

Palomar · 2002-06-22 16:07:11

*I can't see any reason to take guns to Mars. There is no life there, thus there is no game to shoot for food; there are no dangerous predatory animals to guard against; and there are no potentially threatening and hostile natives.

Of course, just about anything can be USED as a weapon, from a knife to a hammer. The difference here is that we'll need various tools on Mars, either for building, clearing, planting, digging, or eating. Guns -- for what purpose? Why would they be needed on Mars?

Tools, yes. Guns, no. Guns send a specific message which tools cannot. I've heard many pro-NRA people say, "Well, people kill with knives and bicycle chains." That's true, but why are guns *the* choice of criminals? Because they are faster and more effective. It takes a lot more energy and time to whip someone to death with a bicycle chain than it does simply to pull the trigger a few times.

Suppose settlement is possible on Mars (and eventually colonies). If Settlement A is known to have 50 gun owners, this might make the inhabitants of Settlements B and C a bit nervous; chances are, they'll also become suspicious and resentful...then they'll want as many guns. See where this leads? "Us versus Them"...subconsciously. See where that leads?

Once there are enough settlers or colonists on Mars that human friction becomes a major issue, it'd still be best to be weapons-free; this would, I think, naturally encourage people to have disputes settled either by councils or legally. At the very least, would certainly deprive some hot-head or unstable character the opportunity to just whip out a gun and start firing away his or her frustrations.

I say keep Mars free of guns and other *weapons* (as distinguished from tools).

--Cindy

Aetius · 2002-06-22 19:32:47

Your idealism is admirable. But to do as you wish requires that other colonies will accept some kind of global authority which has the power to forcibly disarm them. I doubt this will happen. At least in theory it is possible to murder most of the inhabitants of a dome city without destroying the colony's infrastructure. How safe would you feel if a totalitarian state established a colony of its own, several hundred kilometers away? These people could ethnically cleanse you and your fellow dome residents out of existence. You say a verification system will prevent that? I have serious misgivings.

I would certainly fight any attempt to impose some global Martian authority on independent or nation-affiliated settlements.

If guns are outlawed, then only outlaw colonies will have guns. ???

Adrian · 2002-06-23 04:08:40

Aetius: I think that's an overly simplistic argument. I'm personally an advocate of gun control, as we have here in the UK and Europe, but I do understand that it's a controversial and unclear issue. For example, in countries with gun control there is significantly less violent crime and gun-related crime, despite the spiel about 'only criminals will have guns'. But you can read statistics in different ways.

I'm not against the formation of a Martian security force; a police, basically. We forget that Mars will be a completely different world to what we know now - in the early days it will be much more difficult to construct guns considering that the equipment will not be available and there will be more important things to build. Plus, there's the possibility for ubiquitous and transparent surveillance of all colonies - what that'll do to violent and gun-related crime, I don't know.

I'm of the optimistic opinion that we won't see too much crime or war on Mars. The worst types of war occur when ideology is at stake (you never see any wars between first world countries any more), and frankly, I don't believe that countries or organizations that promote this kind of ultra-xenophobic ideology will have the money or inclination to send a colony to Mars - at least, not until long after more democratic countries set up colonies.

Plundering colonies for food or resources: I very much doubt it will come to that. I think that colonies will help each other in this respect, and also receive aid from Earth. Colonies will have months or probably years of emergency supplies of food, and they'll know well in advance whether they're going to have a problem. And if they have the capability to go and plunder another colony (lots of rovers, lots of people, weapons, etc) I wonder why they don't have the capability to grow their own food. After all, on Mars colonies will have to be self-sufficient for all the basics.

Palomar · 2002-06-23 09:27:23

Aetius: I think that's an overly simplistic argument. I'm personally an advocate of gun control, as we have here in the UK and Europe, but I do understand that it's a controversial and unclear issue. For example, in countries with gun control there is significantly less violent crime and gun-related crime, despite the spiel about 'only criminals will have guns'. But you can read statistics in different ways.

*Adrian: I heard on a news show a few years ago that London police don't carry guns, just night sticks. Is this true?

If so, then a level of gun control (whatever of it you have in the UK and Europe) must work...it's difficult for this USA citizen to imagine an American city comparable in size to London with police officers armed only with billy clubs and no guns. Would be nice, though.

--Cindy

Adrian · 2002-06-23 11:28:17

As far as I know, it is standard practice for UK policemen to patrol without lethal weapons - so they are allowed things like nightsticks and stun guns, but not guns (see this BBC article for more information). Most UK police don't want to carry guns on standard patrols.

Of course, they can carry guns in special circumstances and there are special squads that are trained in the usage of lethal weapons, so it's not as if we're all helpless when armed criminals turn up.

Aetius · 2002-06-24 21:04:37

As I posted earlier, I have no problem with prohibiting ordinary citizens from carrying firearms on Mars. Was your statement affirming support for gun control a misreading of my position, a statement to the effect that security forces on Mars shouldn't carry guns, or simply an off-topic note of interest?

I share your optimism that crime and war will be greatly reduced on Mars. I still wouldn't trust ALL my neighbors, though, depending on who they are. First World nations may not fight each other, but eventually they won't be the only ones on Mars. China is certainly not a democracy. But within 100 years, their massive industrial complex might make them far more powerful than all the NATO countries combined.

Let's hope you're right, and bloodshed doesn't get in the way of an era of peaceful Martian economic expansion.

Good points about the value of plundering. Actually, I was thinking more about the costly life support hardware...but your point is equally valid.

Aetius · 2002-06-24 21:16:04

I'd read before that British police departments have special squads with armed officers. The downside, of course, being that police are helpless against an armed criminal until backup arrives. I'd also read that, per capita, just as many British police officers get killed on the job as in the USA. Knives and other common weapons are impossible to outlaw, and unlike shooting a gun, the criminal seldom misses his mark.

I feel safer having every one of my local cops armed with guns, thanks.

Adrian · 2002-06-25 03:18:04

My mistake - I hadn't read your earlier post properly. I think that some kind of lethal weapons will inevitably become available on Mars, and it would be best to restrict them to trained police officers (so I agree with you).

China is certainly gearing up, but it's still quite unstable. It remains to be seen how they'll adapt to free-speech enablers such as the Internet (still heavily and improbably censored over there) and the US enjoys such a massive technological lead over any other country in the world that I doubt they'll try anything any time soon. Plus, Taiwan tends to be the main area of contention between China and USA, but things are looking good in that area now with hopes of peaceful reunifiction taking place in the future.

Byron · 2002-06-25 06:03:38

Here's my two cents...Although I agree some weapons will probably be needed on Mars, I really don't see traditional guns or other projectile weapons being allowed for any reason, simply due to the extreme risk of collatoral damage..like punching holes in the dome. What I do see are things like fletchette guns that have "sleepy darts" and the like which would instantly immobilize attackers.

As for community-wide security, I think lasers could be the way to go, as a set of perimeter laser guns could be mounted around the perimeter of the settlement, and be activated in case of missile or other forms of attack...if it ever came to that. I sincerely hope that Martian settlers would be focused enough on their own survival as to not make war with their neighbors...I really don't ever see anything like the current Isreali-Palestinian conflict on Mars, as there's no "sacred land" to fight over...and I think the act of making a home on a whole new world will give humans (even back here on Earth) a newfound appreciation on the true value of human life.

B

Aetius · 2002-06-25 15:30:44

No rational person wants anything but meaningful peace and prosperity for Martians.

Crime and war are bad for business.

Cobra Commander · 2002-06-28 21:58:45

in countries with gun control there is significantly less violent crime and gun-related crime, despite the spiel about 'only criminals will have guns'. But you can read statistics in different ways.

I've done a fair amount of research on the subject of gun control over the years and the statistics, when not manipulated to alter their meaning, almost always show that gun control INCREASES crime. Granted, the number of high profile shooting massacres drops but such incidents are a tiny percentage of homicides. The number of run of the mill murders, rapes and burglaries increases significantly when gun control is introduced. For example, the UK's experiment with gun control has not been the shining success that the media likes to potray it as. A fair reading of the raw statistics shows that it doesn't work in Europe, it doesn't work in American cities, it isn't working in Australia and there is no reason to believe that it will work on Mars.
The overwhelming majority of police officers I've discussed the issue with agree. The guns aren't the problem, the criminals are. Armed Martians will make for a free Mars.

Never thought I'd write that sentence . . .

Palomar · 2002-06-29 12:01:37

The guns aren't the problem, the criminals are. Armed Martians will make for a free Mars.
Never thought I'd write that sentence . . .

*I'm sorry, but I've just got to say this. Let's not make the Marsian frontier out to be another gun-slinging "Wild, Wild West." I'm ::not:: implying that is what you are doing, btw.

Guns were brought over to the New World from the Old World...on the same planet, obviously. There is no reason why we "have to" take guns to Mars.

The first settlers will be highly educated people facing down a lot of daily challenges, some of which are unforseeable even to those of us who like to look ahead and try to brainstorm issues and solutions.

So long as the settlers take care to try and raise QUALITY children, with high educational standards, and give them plenty of affection and attention, I just honestly do not foresee criminal elements being a major -- or even minor -- issue on Mars for a long, long time. "Idle hands lead to mischief" is the old saying. There won't be much "idle hands" on Mars...not if people want to keep eating, drinking water, and retain their sanity. There is lots of violence in America in particular because violence is a major theme of our "pop culture" life and the socialization process. The old rootin-tootin, gun-slinging, bang-em-up cowboy archetype is legendary here. Cartoons, even of 60-70 years ago, are rife with cartoon animals chasing each other with axes, billy clubs, shooting at each other, dropping anvils on each others' heads, on and on.

Socialization is key.

Again: There is no native animal life on Mars. No one is going to be going out hunting elk or rabbit. There are no potentially hostile native peoples already living there.

The first settlements will be small, Earth is a LOOOONG ways away, and I'd bet dollars to stale doughnuts the settlers are going to be very humanitarian, cooperative, and nice to each other; nicer than most folks here are. They'll need each other; every member will be important and significant.

If a criminal does pop up in the group [yeah, there's always one rotten apple in the barrel], there are many alternative ways to dealing with such a person. Confinement, for one thing.

I'd just like to see NO GUNS on Mars, period. Given the unique and specific situation for the early settlers on Mars in particular, I just cannot see a justifiable reason for them. Humans got along without guns for MILLENIA prior to their invention. They've gotten to be a bad habit, IMO.

--Cindy

Phobos · 2002-06-29 14:50:18

I know I'm getting waaaay off topic from the current tide of discussion, but if you wanted to exterminate the colonists in another colony and keep their structures in tact, a good way of doing it might be to use a non-nuclear magnetic pulse weapon to knock out their electrical systems. Then you can just sit back and wait for your enemies to suffocate/freeze or blow away the ones that run outside before settling there yourself. God, I really hope this kind of thing doesn't happen on Mars. It'd suck to have all that colonization effort wasted by warmongers.

Palomar · 2002-06-29 15:45:57

BUT what happens if after that 100 years from the founding of the first colony another power comes on Mars? A totalitaristic one for example, with the goal of conquering the entire planet. What then? Only 10 properly armed people are enough to wipe out 100 colonies of unarmed people. Am i right or not?...but i was talking about other colonies, not founded by democratic powers. And be sure that this will happen.

*I understand your point of view. However, why stop at allowing guns on Mars? Why not let the first settlers also opt to bring hand grenades, rocket launchers, machine guns, stun guns, sawed-off shotgunts, etc., etc.? Why stop with measley pistols and handguns?

See where this leads?

I say :+:cross the bridge when you come to it.:+: Keep Mars weapons-free until it's fairly certain a hostile nation intends to send settlers to Mars. Yes, if I were an American on Mars, I'd want some sort of safety/defensive alternative if, say, it were known that Iran, Iraq, Libya, or China were going to try and send their own group of settlers. But chances are, they will always be too poor to send their own settlers.

And why have weapons beforehand? And to what extent? If Mr. Jones of American Colony Z wants to have bomb-building materials on hand ala Timothy McVeigh's blasting of the Fred Murrah Building, are we going to allow that? Especially if an American colony is all that's there?

Let's not get the cart ahead of the horse, for crying out loud. Why start a potential arms race with nonexistant settlers if you're the only settlement there?

--Cindy

Palomar · 2002-06-29 15:56:16

God, I really hope this kind of thing doesn't happen on Mars. It'd suck to have all that colonization effort wasted by warmongers.

*I'm going to take a brief departure from my usual optimism and say this: If the whole Mars thing goes down the drain -- settling it, colonizing it, etc. -- because of warmongering, bone-headed humans who can't learn from past mistakes [and those mistakes are VERY WELL DOCUMENTED for all the civilized, technologized world to read and LEARN FROM], then the human race has got coming to it what it deserves, both on Mars and on Earth. Either Mars will mark a ::departure:: from "the usual gang of idiots" mentality which permeates our race here on Earth, or it won't. It's up to the people who initially settle the planet to "set the tone" -- or at least TRY to.

Violence begets violence. Weapons are a statement of anticipating violence.

I rest my case.

I've got family coming to visit, and will be at these message boards infrequently over the next week.

--Cindy

Aetius · 2002-06-29 18:28:36

Cobra Commander, I agree with you about self-defense weapons being allowed to the colonists if they feel they need them. I just don't think guns should be brought in. Too many risks. I have a sword and dagger collection in my house, and trust me...any one of them would be enough for my protection.

Crime will happen on Mars for the same reasons it happens on Earth. Because humans are innately filled with greed and hatred and bloodlust. If a superior educational system was the key to eliminating crime, wealthy and well-educated criminals wouldn't exist in the numbers they do. It is a failed paradigm of the 1960's that fell by the wayside long ago.

I just believe that while crime will be a long time coming to Mars (because of the demands of the Martian environment), it will come. I think it is unrealistic to believe that you can socially engineer crime out of existence, and people should be able to defend themselves. Terran powers (nations, corporations, et cetera) may seek to destroy Martian colonies without any warning, and may not care about settling the place themselves.

Those who disagree can make a weapon-free, military-free colony of their own. Personally, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

But no guns for individuals in the dome cities, I still say.

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