New Mars Forums
You are not logged in.
- Topics: Active | Unanswered
Announcement
#1 2026-07-02 10:00:55
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
As a terraforming tool for Mars and worlds in their own rights.
(If management permits this, it is an expansion on an idea of Callibans, to transport water from Callisto to Mars).
Very basic: 
A cross section of a water filled cylinder with a compartment in which a Stanford Torus spins. (Grey Color).
Further explanation exists in this post to another topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 47#p240047
These (Much more elaborate versions) could be constructed in orbit of ice worlds in the asteroid belt, Ceres and 10 Hygiea for instance.
Some of them could Loiter in association with such an asteroid. Maybe in it's "L1" location.
Some would use propellants such as water to migrate to elliptical orbits that might intercept that of Mars.
A combination of mass drivers and perhaps water plasma drives could bring water from the ones in circular orbits in the asteroid belt to the ones in Elliptical orbits that might intercept Mars.
In addition to moving water and perhaps Ammonia to Mars these platforms could be used as safe havens that "Starships" could couple to for a ride here and there where these things may orbit to and from.
The water chambers will likely be partitioned and protected from impactors to some extent.
They may at times couple to a small stony asteroid and metabolize its raw materials into their structures.
As a tool for expansion of Mars and asteroid efforts, I feel these would have great value.
Ending Pending 
Last edited by Void (2026-07-02 17:06:45)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#2 2026-07-02 11:20:09
- tahanson43206
- Moderator
- Registered: 2018-04-27
- Posts: 25,145
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members.
Index:
(th)
Offline
Like button can go here
#3 2026-07-03 06:58:13
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
Sorry that this is not what you preferred (th).
I may well reveal my lack of proficiency with what I am going to try, but I already think that there are things to learn attempting this topic.
From this list I already uncovered some interesting things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M … or_planets
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1580_Betulia
It looks really good except for its inclination. Even so it would provide a lot of propellants to make up for that.
Quote:
Physical characteristics
In the Tholen classification, Betulia is an unusual C-type asteroid, as near-Earth objects are typically of stony rather than carbonaceous composition.[1] Based on images taken by the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, the asteroid has also been characterized as a carbonaceous but "brighter" B-type asteroid.[19]
If you could use Nuclear-Thermal-Methane, perhaps that would be helpful. There could be hope for another Carbonaceous type that has a better orbit, but most Mars & Earth Crossers are stony.
There are many stony asteroids that seem to have an orbit of 3.2 AU to 1.1 AU, (Just outside of the Earth orbit. This could be useful.
While Ceres and 10 Hygeia are interesting, I also came across Kemi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1508_Kemi
Quote:
Aphelion 3.9264 AU
Perihelion 1.6167 AU
It is called a Mars grazer or crosser, but does not get really close to Mars.
Again, the Inclination is large, but not as bad as Betulia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
Ceres has an inclination of 10.6 and 10 Hygeia has 5.1 inclination. But their orbits are relatively circular.
But Ceres is more likely than 10 Hygeia to have large amounts of Nitrogen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The logic I claim is based on changes that seem to be emerging in technology.
1) Robot Labor may be extremely cheap and may be much more durable than human labor.
2) Expanded energy sources are seeming to become available.
3) Nuclear propulsion methods seem to be emerging.
What I am thinking is that there are many stony asteroids that seem to be in excentric orbits, that don't quite cross Earth but also move upward into the main Asteroid belt.
If we could get large quantities of volatile substances to them, they could be processed into bridges from Earth and Mars into and out of the main asteroid belt.
So, I am trying to come up with a update on "ONiell" concepts of space habitats in consideration of these things.
Pause for drawing..................
More of a block diagram than a engineering drawing, I think.
It is a cross section of a more or less spherical object.
The Black outer shell is of Carbon impregnated with magnetic Iron. This is an impact protector, and should it be shredded in one spot by an impactor, magnetism may keep some of the fragments in reach to recover.
Going inward then the white zone may be a vacuum shell.
going inward a sphere of water is bounded by two spherical walls. This may be in the form of honeycomb, like a beehive. That way a puncture would only drain one cell or water out into the vacuum.
The light grey layer is a robot work area with different levels of low synthetic gravity. It can be partitioned by walls and floors.
The inner spherical wall of the robot chamber forma a tank for still more fluids like water.
Inside of that is a vacuum chamber (White), in which a disc like synthetic gravity device may spin (Dark Grey)
I have not shown energy sourcing or propulsion methods. Those could be exterior to this, and of variable natures.
I do not concentrate on windows for agriculture. I am presuming that interior lighting and the use of chemical farming will provide plenty.
But sunrooms and greenhouses could be added on.
If these were manufactured in proximity of a world like Ceres, then they might loiter near Ceres, or begin to chase down an asteroid of some kind that is in an elliptical orbit of the sun.
They may be restocked with water by robot ships as they deplete their water.
Upon reaching a asteroid such as a common stony one, propulsion may switch over to metal-plasma types where less valued substances from the stony asteroid would be used. The Stony asteroid would be converted to resource structure over time.
Ideally the result would end up in an orbit that has Aphelion in the asteroid belt, and Perihelion, near a terrestrial planet such as Mars or Earth.
Then these could serve as traveling landing pads for spaceships, to move about.
Ending Pending
This metal asteroid might be good for jumping Belt<>Mars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/132_Aethra
Quote:
Aphelion 3.6230 AU (541.99 Gm)
Perihelion 1.6012 AU (239.54 Gm)
Perhaps parts could be cleaved off of it to make them travel closer to the orbit of Mars.
There are quite a few asteroids that have similar orbits in the Outer Grazers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M … or_planets
Here is a small stony asteroid that also grazes Earth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1620_Geographos
Image Quote: 
(Earth Blue, Mars Red).
Power supplies could be solar with concentrating mirrors.
Ending Pending
If a near miss of Mars became expected, then a great deal of ices might be dumped out to deliver to Mars as atmospheric impactors.
There would be a constant flow of one way water transport robots that could move water from the outer asteroid belt to these structures.
The robot ships might be started on their way from a place like Ceres, using a mass driver method.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-03 11:44:05)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#4 2026-07-03 11:50:42
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
Adding to the previous post: 
OK, Solar power is used, even at the orbit of Ceres or 10 Hygeia.
Other boost methods may start it on it's way though.
So, suppose someone wanted to upgrade the value of a stony rock like Eros: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros
It appears that even stony asteroids may have some water content, but it is sparce for the most part, I think.
*By the way I am housebound again from another repertory illness. That is why I am putting so much time into it.
If a robotic dominated build factory(s) could be set up at Ceres or 10 Hygiea or the equivalent, then perhaps these devices could be used to basically 'light a match, to start a fire".
If they have room for a few people and many robots and have a Carbon shell, and water tanks, and a little Nitrogen then the materials of stony asteroids might be crafted into good things.
Here is an article on asteroidal water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroidal_water
While Eros might have some water, it would probably help to initiate activities with a massive donation of water from Ceres or 10 Hygiea.
This article indicates the detection of water on Eros: https://christophegaron.com/articles/re … ploration/
Quote:
Water and hydroxyl, once believed to only exist in primitive bodies beyond 2.5-3 Astronomical Units (AU), have now been detected on the surfaces of near-Earth asteroids 433 Eros and 1036 Ganymed. This breakthrough challenges previous assumptions about the distribution of water in our solar system.
It is also possible that these rocks may have small amounts of hydrated minerals and even brine includsions.
So, I feel that if we could create a factory or factories that create starter devices similar to what I have shown, we might turn world like Eros into "Places" where humans might live.
So then we can mine a Dwarf Object: 
And build things, both underground and in orbits.
So, then the idea can emerge of a Mass Driver that might put mass into orbit. Perhaps then to mass produce water rockets to send inward in the solar system. Another launch device could cast them into a lower orbit of elliptical nature.
Perhaps a spin launch type thing.
This is a possible option. If it does not suit the needs something else might work.
https://www.shutterstock.com/search/spi … ing.com%2F
Image Quote: 
Let's say we spin a spiral slide using a highly efficient method. Perhaps water plasma, or Magdrive, or Neumann Drive.
We can enter through the side at the center and release a load down the slide. Timing and drag and imposed acceleration will decide at what point of rotation the load will leave the outer end of the spiral. But we have a problem. Action and Reaction.
If the load is released against the existing energy of orbit, it should drop from a more circular orbit to a more ecocritical orbit with less energy. But the Spiral slide will then gain orbital speed in the opposite direction and try to move to a higher orbit. I think that we may be able to use the Hill Sphere of a small world to fix that.
I am going to have to donate to Wikipedia. I love this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_sphere
Image Quote: 
So, Ceres has a significant Hill sphere relative to it's size. I am going to hope to use an effect similar to Ballistic capture to regain the spirals position after firing. I do not very well understand this, so I will struggle and fail. If I do then perhaps someone else will find a way.
I am not sure where the starting position should be, but the effect I want is to eject a load down while the spiral slide is between the world and the sun. (Vastly closer to the world.
The load drops sunward, but the spiral slide moves to a higher orbit around Ceres and perhaps even to escape velocity in front of Ceres. It is moving faster ahead of Ceres, but the gravity of Ceres is pulling on it, and so taking inertia from the spiral Slide. Ceres is there for speeding up and may rob it of some of it's added speed.
That may need some work.
What if the spiral were attached to a space elevator which would be attached to Ceres?
Well, I think my brain is full again. I think that it could be obvious that not only could you drop a load down a spinning spiral, but the space elevator could be imparting spin from Ceres itself.
And to top it off you could put some sort of mass driver method onto it to further accelerate the loads.
If I have been stupid in this, please let me know as I do not which to remain stupid about anything I got wrong.
One nice thing about connecting the spiral to a space elevator is that you then do not need to use rocket propulsion to spin it, you can use motors.
But of course, this is going to require a very sturdy space elevator. But the task of a space elevator for Ceres or 10 Hygiea or the like will be very much easier than for Earth or Mars.
I need to step away and perhaps come back to it later.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-03 13:03:06)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#5 2026-07-04 06:54:48
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
So, it was fun to ponder a sort of mass driver involving spirals. Over time that might have application and be developed.
But I have to admit that Methane-Thermal might be a "Best-Booster" method.
My interest in the "Methane-Thermal" process started when reading an article about "Nuclear-Methane-Thermal" engines for Starship.
I want a booster that does not return to Ceres or 10 Hygiea. A booster section might be permanently attached to an AquaWorld. It might be rather a simple tank as durable as the tank for Starship. It would get filled from a depot quickly. It might have a Carbon/Iron layer over the tank, to insulate it a bit and to protect from impactors. It is notable that the suns unamplified power at the ~3 AU distance is much lower, so boiloff will be slower.
I can mention 4 energy sources for an engine for this.
1) Nuclear-Thermal.
2) Nuclear-Electric-Thermal/Plasma.
3) Solar-Electric-Thermal/Plasma.
4) Initiating Laser.
I am going to imagine 4) Initiating Laser & 3) Solar-Electric-Thermal/Plasma. (Perhaps also Nuclear-Electric-Thermal/Plasma.
OK, this would be a mass production process in the asteroid belt to make something like this: 
I do not want to bring parts back to the Orbital Launch Site.
It is to be noted that most of the fluids in the device are Water and Methane. So, the probability for a giant chemical explosion is low.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Nuclear Methane Rocket Propulsion
A nuclear methane rocket is a type of nuclear thermal rocket (NTR) that uses methane as the working fluid instead of the more common liquid hydrogen. In an NTR, a nuclear fission reactor heats the propellant to very high temperatures, turning it into a high‑velocity gas that is expelled through a nozzle to produce thrust Wikipedia.How it works
Nuclear heat source: A fission reactor (or, in future concepts, a fusion reactor) generates heat.Propellant: Methane (CH₄) is pumped through the reactor core, where it is heated to thousands of degrees.
Expansion and thrust: The hot methane expands through a nozzle, producing high exhaust velocity and thrust.
Advantages over chemical rockets: Methane offers higher density than hydrogen, allowing for more propellant stored in a given volume, which can improve performance and reduce staging needs Wikipedia.
Why methane?
High performance: Methane has a high specific impulse (Isp) when heated to extreme temperatures, potentially exceeding that of hydrogen‑based NTRs.Storage and handling: Methane is easier to store and handle than liquid hydrogen, which requires cryogenic temperatures.
Compatibility with existing systems: Methane is already used in some chemical rockets (e.g., SpaceX’s Raptor engine), so infrastructure and fueling systems may be more familiar.
Nuclear thermal propulsion context
Nuclear thermal rockets have been studied since the 1950s, with the goal of doubling or tripling payload capacity compared to chemical rockets by using external nuclear heat instead of internal chemical energy Wikipedia. NASA’s Space Nuclear Propulsion (SNP) program is exploring both nuclear thermal and nuclear electric systems for faster Moon–Mars missions NASA.Current status
Hydrogen‑based NTRs have been tested on the ground, but no NTR has flown yet Wikipedia.Methane NTRs are still in the conceptual and early design phase. They are being considered as a potential next step in NTR development, especially for missions where propellant density and handling matter.
NASA and ESA are advancing NTR concepts, but methane‑specific designs are not yet in active flight testing.
Potential benefits
Faster transit times to Mars and beyond compared to chemical rockets.Higher payload fractions due to improved propellant efficiency.
Reduced staging for some mission profiles, simplifying spacecraft design.
In short, a nuclear methane rocket combines the high energy density of nuclear thermal propulsion with the practicality of methane as a propellant, offering a promising path toward faster, more efficient deep‑space travel.
So, you could use direct nuclear thermal and I am not saying no to it, but I imagine first boost to heat methane might be able to use lasers from orbital power stations.
Then, it would be wise to have at least one Nuclear-Electric device on board, so you might convert over to process the Methane Boil-Off in a plasma thruster.
You would probably rise to the edge of the Hill sphere of Ceres and then exit the Hill sphere, in a direction retrograde to the orbit of Ceres around the Sun.
Then you would deploy your solar energy devices, (Mirrors, Etc, ???)
So, after exiting Ceres you would naturally drop sunward to some amount. Over time solar would become more and more important.
When you ran out of Methane, I would hope that then Water could be the working fluid for thrust all the way then to a destination, which could be a stony or metallic asteroid that ideally crosses the Belt, Mars, Earth, one, two, or three of those.
Itokawa may be of interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25143_Itokawa
Quote:
Aphelion 1.6951 AU
Perihelion 0.9532 AU
Quote:
Inclination 1.6214°
Image Quote: 
Quote:
Dimensions 535 m × 294 m × 209 m[4]
Mean diameter 313 m[5]
330 m[3]
350 m[6][7]
Mass (3.51±0.105)×1010 kg[4]
(3.58±0.18)×1010 kg[8]
Mean density 1.9±0.13 g/cm3[4]
1.95±0.14 g/cm3[8]
So, it is a little one, but you could make a heck of a spaceship out of it. I think Japan thought of that.
Image Quote: 
Quote:
Animation of asteroid 25143 Itokawa's orbit: Mars(Red) · Itokawa(Green) · Earth(Blue) · Sun(Yellow)
* I think it would be good to consider this to be irrigating the inner solar system with more outer world volatiles.
Spaceships could "Island Hop", in the inner solar system, at least out to the Asteroid Belt.
Also, these asteroids on average will receive more solar energy than the Asteroids in the Main Belt and the Trojans.
Eros might receive more than one delivery device.
When arriving the Methane tank if retained could be converted into useful space using raw materials from Eros.
Quote:
In 2000, it was selected as the target of Japan's Hayabusa mission. The probe arrived in the vicinity of Itokawa on 12 September 2005 and initially "parked" in an asteroid–Sun line at 20 km (12 mi), and later 7 km (4.3 mi), from the asteroid (Itokawa's gravity was too weak to provide an orbit, so the spacecraft adjusted its orbit around the Sun until it matched the asteroid's). Hayabusa landed on 20 November for thirty minutes, but it failed to operate a device designed to collect soil samples. On 25 November, a second landing and sampling sequence was attempted. The sample capsule was returned to Earth and landed at Woomera,
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3516308120
Quote:
Evidence for OH or H2O on the surface of 433 Eros and 1036 Ganymed
Author links open overlay panelAndrew S. Rivkin a 1
, Ellen S. Howell b, Joshua P. Emery c, Jessica Sunshine d
So, I am expecting some OH and water on Itokawa as well.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aav8106
Quote:
Abstract
We performed the first measurements of hydrogen isotopic composition and water content in nominally anhydrous minerals collected by the Hayabusa mission from the S-type asteroid Itokawa. The hydrogen isotopic composition (δD) of the measured pyroxene grains is −79 to −53‰, which is indistinguishable from that in chondritic meteorites, achondrites, and terrestrial rocks. Itokawa minerals contain water contents of 698 to 988 parts per million (ppm) weight, after correcting for water loss during parent body processes and impact events that elevated the temperature of the parent body. We infer that the Bulk Silicate Itokawa parent body originally had 160 to 510 ppm water. Asteroids like Itokawa that formed interior to the snow line could therefore have been a potential source of water (up to 0.5 Earth’s oceans) during the formation of Earth and other terrestrial planets.
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Water on Asteroid Itokawa
Asteroid 25143 Itokawa — a peanut-shaped S-type near-Earth asteroid — contains evidence of past water and even ancient hydrated minerals that reveal its history.Evidence of Water
The Hayabusa mission collected over 1,500 dust particles from Itokawa’s surface in 2005, and subsequent laboratory analyses showed that its minerals contain water in the range of 698–988 parts per million (ppm) by weight pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. After correcting for water loss during metamorphism and impacts, scientists infer that the asteroid’s parent body originally had 160–510 ppm water pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. This is far less than Earth’s crustal water (15,000–20,000 ppm), but significant for an S-type asteroid.Origin and Evolution
Itokawa formed interior to the snow line in the early solar system, where temperatures were too warm for water ice to persist. The water present was likely D-poor water ice incorporated during formation, later metamorphosed and dehydrated on the parent body pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. The asteroid’s rubble-pile structure suggests it was built from smaller fragments, possibly mixed through impacts, and evolved via late-stage hydration pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.Significance
While Itokawa itself is not a reservoir of liquid water today, its hydrated minerals and isotopic composition (δD values matching chondritic meteorites and terrestrial rocks) indicate it once interacted with water. This supports models of how volatile-rich asteroids could have contributed water to the early Earth and other terrestrial planets pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.In summary: Itokawa does not currently have liquid water, but its minerals preserve a record of ancient, low-abundance water that existed on its parent body, offering clues to the early solar system’s water cycle.
So, in the asteroid belt, at about =>3.0 AU massive amounts of water ice and probably Carbon, maybe Nitrogen is available.
At 2.1 AU, about 40% of the asteroids are Carbonaceous. So it may be possible to start an "Irrigation Process" from 2.1 AU, where I would expect some of the asteroids to be Carbonaceous, and then expand out to the outer parts of the Asteroid Belt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_belt
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Carbonaceous Composition in the Main Asteroid Belt
The main asteroid belt — the region between Mars and Jupiter — contains a mix of asteroid types, with carbonaceous (C-type) asteroids being the most common in its outer regions.Overall distribution
About 75% of all known asteroids are C-type, making them the dominant class in the belt Science Mission Directorate.
These are dark, carbon-rich bodies with albedos (reflectivity) less than 0.10, similar to coal or soot Science Mission Directorate.
They are chemically similar to carbonaceous chondrite meteorites found on Earth European Space Agency+1.
Regional variation
In the outer belt (around 3.0–3.5 AU from the Sun), over 80% of asteroids are C-type European Space Agency.
In the inner belt (around 2.8 AU), the proportion drops to about 40% C-type, with the rest being silicate-rich (S-type) and metallic (M-type) asteroids European Space Agency.
Why the variation?
The difference is due to temperature gradients during the Solar System’s formation.Outer belt: Cooler temperatures allowed volatile compounds like water and organic carbon to remain, preserving carbon-rich material.
Inner belt: Higher temperatures drove off volatiles, leaving behind silicate and metal-rich bodies.
Summary table:
Belt Region Distance from Sun % C-type Asteroids
Dominant CompositionOuter belt ~3.0–3.5 AU >80%
Carbonaceous (C-type)Inner belt ~2.8 AU ~40%
Mixed (C, S, M types)In short: The main asteroid belt is dominated by carbonaceous asteroids, especially in its outer regions, with C-type making up the majority of known asteroids overall European Space Agency+1.
The "Irrigation Process" might expand outward to involve objects beyond the asteroid belt.
If you have almost infinite robot labor and almost infinite energy, then with patience, an irrigation of many solar system objects may be possible.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-04 08:11:27)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#6 2026-07-04 08:37:13
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
This is an amendment to the just prior post.
If you can irrigate a "Crosser" or "Grazer" asteroid, then you might convert it to a spaceship. If you convert it to a spaceship you may have it fly into the orbit of Mars.
While some have considered massive collisions to manipulate Mars, I think that if you flew such a spaceship into orbit of Mars and converted it into solar power collection, then you could beam power to Mars, and in processing raw materials may eject gasses such as Oxygen into the atmosphere of Mars.
If you Oxygen ejection was done optimally, the Oxygen would also serve as reaction gas before becoming part of the atmosphere of Mars.
At least some Oxygen might be conserved to the atmosphere of Mars that way.
So, after Phobos and Demos have been consumed, you could keep bringing in new moons to consume.
Ending Pending
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#7 2026-07-05 08:20:52
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
I think the current drift of things suggests that space expansion is Moon>Mars/Phobos/Deimos>Asteroid Belt 2.1 AU>Asteroid Belt ~3 AU.
That could be revised subject to future history, political events, Technological Twists.
I think that the Moon does not have the proper resources to make one. The Earth has too much gravity. The Asteroids are far away.
But perhaps it could be experimented with using Mars/Phobos/Deimos. We know that Mars itself has everything needed. But it has a significant gravity well. I would like to limit the contribution of Mars down to Water or even better Hydrogen.
To do that then the two little moons Phobos and Deimos have to have appropriate resources.
My computer these days when online seems to want to offer me guidance, so I will provoke it and see what I get.
Query: "Phyto silicates on Phobos?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Phytosilicates on Phobos
There is no confirmed detection of phytosilicates on Phobos in current scientific data. Phytosilicates are a class of clay minerals (e.g., kaolinite, smectites) that form in the presence of water and are typically associated with aqueous alteration processes on planetary surfaces. They are common in Mars’ ancient terrains and in some asteroids, but no spectroscopic or compositional measurements from Phobos have identified them.Current knowledge of Phobos’ composition
Bulk density: ~1.86 g/cm³, similar to C-type asteroids, suggesting a carbonaceous, low-albedo surface dominated by silicate minerals and carbon-rich materials Wikipedia.Spectral units: HiRISE and other orbital data show two main spectral units — a blue unit (mostly in Stickney crater) and a red unit (covering most of the surface) Frontiers. The red unit is spectrally similar to carbonaceous chondrites, while the blue unit may have a slightly different composition.
Regolith properties: Phobos regolith is highly porous, with macro- and micro-porosity affecting its reflectance in visible–near-infrared wavelengths Archive ouverte HAL. Simulants of Phobos regolith are used to model these properties, but they do not show phytosilicate absorption features.
Why phytosilicates are unlikely on Phobos
Low albedo and spectral signature: Phobos’ surface is very dark (albedo ~0.07) and lacks the hydration bands (e.g., ~3 μm) that phytosilicates show in spectra Wikipedia.Origin scenarios: Phobos may be a captured asteroid or re-accreted Martian ejecta. If it is a captured body, it likely came from the outer Solar System, where phytosilicate formation is rare. If it formed from Martian impacts, it would have been exposed to Mars’ water-rich past, but its current surface is heavily altered by space weathering and micrometeorite bombardment, erasing any original phytosilicate signatures.
No in situ confirmation: All current data are remote-sensing; no sample return has been attempted. Without direct analysis, the presence of phytosilicates remains speculative.
Research and simulants
Phobos simulants (e.g., Phobos-1C, PCA-1, PGI-1) are used to study regolith properties, but they are designed to match bulk spectral and physical characteristics, not to reproduce phytosilicate-bearing materials Frontiers. These simulants help interpret Phobos’ surface but do not confirm or rule out phytosilicate presence.Conclusion: Based on current observations, Phobos does not appear to contain phytosilicates. Any such minerals would require direct in situ analysis, which is not yet available. Future missions, especially sample return, could confirm or refute their presence.
Query: "Phyto silicates on Deimos?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Phytosilicates on Deimos
Current spectroscopic data from Deimos do not show clear evidence for phytosilicates — the hydrated silicate minerals (e.g., kaolinite, smectite) that form in the presence of water and are common in terrestrial and some asteroidal regoliths.Spectral observations
Recent high-resolution near-infrared spectroscopy of Deimos, including work from the NASA Infrared Telescope Facility and other studies, has searched for diagnostic absorption bands of hydrated minerals such as phytosilicates. These minerals typically have distinct OH-stretch and lattice water features in the 3–4μm range. However, Deimos’ spectra are dominated by low, flat reflectance in the visible and near-infrared, with no strong, unambiguous hydrated band features NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)+1. This is consistent with a carbonaceous chondrite-like composition, which is also inferred for Phobos NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)+1.Possible explanations for the absence of phytosilicates
Low water content: The lack of strong OH bands suggests minimal surface water or hydrated minerals.
Space weathering effects: Laboratory and observational studies suggest that dark, amorphous carbon and Fe–S–Fe⁰ materials may be responsible for the observed spectral slope, potentially masking or replacing hydrated mineral signatures Oxford Academic.
Regolith maturation: Prolonged exposure to space radiation and micrometeorite impacts can alter or destroy hydrated minerals, leaving behind space-weathered regolith Lunar and Planetary Institute.
Formation history: If Deimos formed from a carbonaceous chondrite parent body, it may have experienced little to no aqueous alteration, so phytosilicates would not have formed in situ Lunar and Planetary Institute.
Comparison with Phobos
Phobos also shows no strong hydrated bands, but some studies have detected weak hydrated features in certain regions, possibly due to local regolith maturation or small-scale variations Lunar and Planetary Institute. Deimos, being smaller and farther from Mars, may have experienced even less regolith processing, but its spectra remain consistent with a dry, space-weathered surface.Conclusion
Based on current data, phytosilicates are not detected on Deimos. The surface composition is best explained by a carbonaceous chondrite-like material, possibly with dark, space-weathered components, and little to no aqueous alteration. Future missions like JAXA’s MMX, with the MIRS spectrometer, will provide higher-resolution data to confirm or refine these interpretations Archive ouverte HAL+1.
Is there Carbon in Phobos or Deimos?
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Yes — both Phobos and Deimos contain carbon, though it is not in the form of free elemental carbon like graphite or diamond, but rather as part of dark, carbon-rich materials on their surfaces.Spectroscopic observations from NASA’s Compact Reconnaissance Imaging Spectrometer for Mars (CRISM) have detected an absorption feature at about 0.65micrometers on the “red” unit of Phobos and on Deimos. This feature is consistent with the presence of Fe-bearing phyllosilicates and/or graphite, both of which contain carbon NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS). The spectral properties of these moons are also similar to those of CM-type carbonaceous chondrite asteroids, which are known to contain significant amounts of carbon in the form of organic compounds and carbonaceous minerals NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)+1.
Further studies suggest that the dark surface components could include amorphous carbon and other carbon-bearing materials produced by space weathering, such as iron- and iron sulfide-bearing phases Oxford Academic. These dark materials are thought to be responsible for the reduced hydrated band observed on the moons without requiring hydration of an anhydrous surface Oxford Academic.
In summary:
Phobos and Deimos have carbon in the form of graphite, phyllosilicates, and possibly amorphous carbon.
The carbon is part of their dark, carbonaceous chondrite-like surface composition.
The exact form and distribution of carbon are still under study, but spectroscopic and mineralogical data strongly indicate its presence.
So that is a very big win if there really is Carbon as we know that Oxygen is also present so a fuel of CO and Oxidizer of O2 is then avaiable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide
Quote:
Melting point −205.02 °C (−337.04 °F; 68.13 K)
Boiling point −191.5 °C (−312.7 °F; 81.6 K)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane
Quote:
Melting point −182.456 °C (−296.421 °F; 90.694 K)[3]
Boiling point −161.49 °C (−258.68 °F; 111.66 K)[4]
So, here is a question, could you mix the two fluids at say =188 degrees C?
And not get a chemical reaction?
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Mixing Liquid Carbon Monoxide and Liquid Methane
Mixing liquid carbon monoxide (CO) and liquid methane (CH₄) is extremely hazardous and should never be attempted without specialized, controlled conditions and proper safety measures.1. Combustion and Explosion Risk
Both CO and CH₄ are flammable gases. CO is a colorless, odorless gas that burns in air to produce carbon dioxide and heat, while CH₄ is a hydrocarbon that burns to produce CO₂, water vapor, and significant heat. When mixed, they can form a combustible mixture that ignites easily if exposed to an ignition source, leading to rapid flame spread, explosion, or fire Springer. The mixture’s lower explosive limit (LEL) and upper explosive limit (UEL) depend on the proportions, but both gases are well within flammable ranges.2. Toxicity
CO is highly toxic — it binds to hemoglobin in the blood, reducing oxygen delivery to tissues. Even small amounts can be dangerous, and in a mixture with methane, the risk of CO exposure is amplified. Methane itself is not toxic in normal concentrations but can displace oxygen, causing asphyxiation in confined spaces Airgas.3. Physical and Chemical Incompatibility
While CO and CH₄ are both gases, they are not considered “incompatible” in the sense of violent chemical reaction at room temperature, but their combustibility and toxicity make them dangerous together. In laboratory safety lists, methane is listed as incompatible with chlorine and other oxidizers, but CO is not explicitly listed as incompatible with methane — however, the hazard is primarily due to flammability and toxicity rather than a direct chemical reaction Grand Valley State University+1.4. Storage and Handling Considerations
Segregation: Store CO and CH₄ in separate, compatible containers away from ignition sources.
Ventilation: Use in well-ventilated areas to prevent accumulation.
Detection: Use gas detectors for CO and methane, as both are odorless.
Equipment: Use only equipment rated for the gases’ pressures and materials of construction.
No mixing: Avoid mixing in open systems; if necessary, do so in a closed, controlled environment with proper safety protocols.
5. Summary of Hazards
Flammability: Both gases are combustible; mixture can ignite easily.
Toxicity: CO is poisonous; methane can cause asphyxiation.
Explosion risk: Combustible mixture in confined space.
No beneficial reaction: No known safe or useful chemical reaction between them under normal conditions.
Bottom line: Mixing liquid CO and liquid methane is not safe and can lead to fire, explosion, or poisoning. If you need to work with both, do so separately, in well-ventilated areas, with proper detection and suppression systems, and only under expert supervision.
I think I may have a beneficial use. by injecting Methane into the CO fuel, Hydrogen molecules may increase the thrust. Just a guess.
1) Premix the liquids. Might be most troublesome. Then react with Oxygen in a typical type of rocket engine.
2) Have two fuel preburner(s), and one Oxygen preburner.
So more complex than a Raptor Engine. However, you might dump CO/O2 burned gas overboard using that combustion to drive the turbine pumps for the main rocket event. That would be a little simpler than to do what Raptor does. (Proper terminology needed).
So, if we presume that the two moons have Carbon but no Hydrogen, either Methane or Hydrogen could be brought up from Mars. In either case then the two fuels CO, and Methane could be created in orbit. Also, the Oxygen could be created in orbit.
My presumption is that if you injected a bit of Methane into the burning of CO you might get a better performance. (If you could).
>>>>>>>>>
Now, I wonder if you could go Nuclear or Plasma with such a mix, CO and Methane?
Quote:
Could Liquid Carbon Monoxide be used in a Nuclear Thermal Rocket?
So, the answer is yes, but as expected it would not perform as well as Hydrogen. It might also soot up.
So, I am thinking that a pinch of Hydrogen in Methane added (Or another hydrocarbon), might improve results.
I got no answer for this query: "Could a Mixture of Liquid Carbon Monoxide and Methane be used in a Nuclear Thermal Rocket?"
So, I think two processes each with three sub-divisions may be possible to try.
A) Gas Phase Thrusters.
1) Nuclear Thermal (Unlikely)
2) Nuclear Electric (Maybe)
3) Solar Electric (Maybe)
B) Liquid Phase Thrusters.
1) Nuclear Thermal (Maybe)
2) Nuclear Electric (Maybe)
3) Solar Electric (Maybe)
If Carbon Soot is a problem, then maybe A-2, A-3, B-2, B-3 are more usable. If you had multiple thrusters, it might be possible to clean them periodically in flight.
So, the point is if Phobos and/or Deimos do have significant Carbon, but no Hydrogen, water or Hydrogen could be brought up from Mars to make fuels. Ideally it would be Hydrogen.
So, to access asteroids, you would then already have a process to produce CO from Carbonaceous Asteroids, and it may be that Carbonaceous may also have water. So, the process that would deliver you from Mars orbit to an asteroid might be replicated if your target was Carbonacious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M … or_planets
These are all Mars crossers and seem to have a Perihelion near to Earth: (I scanned about 1/4 to 1/3 of the first part of the list).
Here is a first candidate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1580_Betulia
Quote:
1580 Betulia, provisional designation 1950 KA, is an eccentric, carbonaceous asteroid, classified as near-Earth object of the Amor group, approximately 4.2 kilometers in diameter. It was discovered on 22 May 1950, by South African astronomer Ernest Johnson at the Union Observatory in Johannesburg.[3] The asteroid was named for Betulia Toro, wife of astronomer Samuel Herrick.[2]
Orbit and classification
Betulia orbits the Sun at a distance of 1.1–3.3 AU once every 3 years and 3 months (1,190 days). Its orbit has an eccentricity of 0.49 and an inclination of 52° with respect to the ecliptic.[1] The body's observation arc begins with its official discovery observation at Johannesburg in 1950.[3]
The inclination is not good, but perhaps that can be corrected over time or by a spaceship at Aphelion. Pretty expensive to do so though, I expect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3552_Don_Quixote
A good size, a possible extinct comet, but goes further out per AU than I might like. CO2 detected?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5370_Taranis
Another suspected dormant comet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(6178)_1986_DA
Metal, so probably cannot refuel CO or CH4. But the orbit is rather good.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Outer Grazers may be more suitable:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/132_Aethra
Metal, but its orbit looks rather good, except inclination.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1011_Laodamia
Stony but the orbit and inclination are very good relative to others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1235_Schorria
Carbonaceous! This one may go just a little into the Main belt and then down somewhere near Mars.
Quote:
1235 Schorria (prov. designation: 1931 UJ), is a Hungaria asteroid, sizable Mars-crosser, and exceptionally slow rotator from the inner region of the asteroid belt. The carbonaceous C-type asteroid has an outstandingly long rotation period of 1265 hours (7.5 weeks) and measures approximately 5.5 kilometers (3.4 miles) kilometers in diameter. It was discovered by Karl Reinmuth at Heidelberg Observatory in southwest Germany on 18 October 1931,[1] and named after German astronomer Richard Schorr (1867–1951).[2]
Orbit and classification
Schorria is a Mars-crossing member of the Hungaria asteroids, which form the innermost dense concentration of asteroids in the Solar System. It orbits the Sun in the inner main-belt at a distance of 1.6–2.2 AU once every 2 years and 8 months (964 days; semi-major axis of 1.91 AU). Its orbit has an eccentricity of 0.15 and an inclination of 25° with respect to the ecliptic.[3] The body's observation arc begins at Heidelberg two weeks after its official discovery observation, as no precoveries were taken, and no prior identifications were made.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1508_Kemi
Carbonaceous, and a larger asteroid.
Quote:
1508 Kemi (provisional designation 1938 UP) is an eccentric, carbonaceous asteroid and one of the largest Mars-crossers, approximately 17 kilometers in diameter. Discovered by Heikki Alikoski at Turku Observatory in 1938,[3] the asteroid was later named after the Finnish town of Kemi and the Kemi River.[2]
Orbit and classification
Kemi is a Mars-crossing asteroid as it crosses the orbit of Mars at 1.666 AU. Because of its high inclination, it has been grouped with the Pallas family (801), an asteroid family of bright carbonaceous asteroids, as well as with the "Phaethon group", despite its untypical spectrum.[14][15]
*A bit of concern is a high inclination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well, that is just a sample.
If Mars/Phobos/Deimos can serve to refill an expedition to a suitable Carbonaceous Asteroid, which comes close to Mars and yet goes into the asteroid belt, that asteroid might turn into a refilling station as well.
From then when in the Asteroid belt it might be possible to find a Carbonaceous asteroid with a more circular orbit to establish yet another refilling situation.
This then might give access to valuable asteroids of an "M" Type as well.
At the point that Ceres and 10 Hygea and the like could be accessed, then you might obtain vast resources of water and Carbon which could fuel methods to bring materials back to Mars and maybe Earth.
*But it may be possible to fuel electric ships with metal fuels, to complete the expansion.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-05 10:18:36)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#8 2026-07-05 16:51:38
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
I could be irresponsible and go out since my cold is 5-6 days old, but I think I will stay housebound at least today.
Therefore running out of things to do. So, I will chase the materials in this topic further.
Space Elevators:
Ceres: https://www.wionews.com/science/scienti … 0405225668 Quote:
30,000 km-long space elevator proposed on Ceres can solve two problems
Anamica Singh
Edited By Anamica Singh
Published: Jun 20, 2025, 13:20 IST | Updated: Jun 20, 2025, 13:20 IST
I am not naturally comfortable with Space Elevators, but if it is a technology to learn into, then Ceres and some asteroids smaller than it may be good nurseries to develop the technology.
Because it is an apparently chemically similar object and having a smaller size and inclination, I have thought that 10 Hygea might be an ever better bet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Hygiea
Quote:
Hygiea has a nearly spherical shape, with two known craters about 100 and 180 km (62 and 112 mi) in diameter. Because of its shape and large size, some researchers consider Hygiea a possible dwarf planet. Hygiea has a dark, carbonaceous surface consisting of hydrated and ammoniated silicate minerals, with carbonates and water ice. Hygiea's subsurface likely contains a large fraction of water ice. These characteristics make Hygiea very similar to the main-belt dwarf planet Ceres, which suggests the two objects have similar origins and evolutionary histories.[12]: 2
Query: "How Much would I weigh on Ceres?"
I will look further as I am not sure I like this answer:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
To calculate how much you would weigh on Ceres, you can use the following information:Ceres has a gravitational force of about 0.27 times that of Earth.
To find your weight on Ceres, multiply your Earth weight by 0.27. For example, if you weigh 150 pounds on Earth, you would weigh approximately 40.5 pounds on Ceres
starlighttools.org
starlighttools.org
+1
.
You can also use online calculators to easily find your weight on Ceres by entering your Earth weight
starlighttools.org
starlighttools.org
.
* So the just previous information about weight on Ceres looks false to me and shows that you cant always trust the feedback you migh get.
OK, I trust this far more: https://www.webconversiononline.com/cal … anet=ceres Quote:
Weight 40 pound on Earth will weight 1.1009 pound on Ceres
On the other hand weight 40 pound on Ceres will weight 1,453.3333 pound on Earth
Note: Ceres is a dwarf planet in our solar system
OK, this might be true, it certainly looks somewhat believable. Query: "What is the gravity of Ceres and 10 Hygiea?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Gravity of Ceres and 10 Hygiea
Ceres has an equatorial surface gravity of about 0.284m/s² (about 0.029g of Earth’s gravity) Wikipedia. This is due to its large size for an asteroid — with a mean radius of ~469.7km and a mass of ~9.38×10²⁰kg — but still far less than Earth’s gravity.10 Hygiea, the fourth-largest asteroid in the main belt, has an equatorial surface gravity of about 0.12m/s² Wikipedia. Its smaller mass (about 8.74×10¹⁹kg) and lower density (≈2.06g/cm³) result in weaker surface gravity compared to Ceres.
Comparison
Ceres gravity: 0.284m/s² (0.029g)Hygiea gravity: 0.12m/s² (≈0.012g)
This means Ceres’ gravity is roughly 2.4 times stronger than Hygiea’s at their equators. Both are far weaker than Earth’s gravity (9.8m/s²), reflecting their small sizes and low masses.
So, inclination?
What is the Inclination of Mars? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars
Quote:
Epoch J2000
Aphelion 249261000 km
(1.66621 AU)[2]
Perihelion 206650000 km
(1.3814 AU)[2]Inclination
1.850° to ecliptic
5.65° to Sun's equator
1.63° to invariable plane[4]
Earth? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth
Quote:
Inclination
7.155° – Sun's equator;
1.57869° – invariable plane;[5]
0.00005° – J2000 ecliptic
Ceres? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_(dwarf_planet)
Quote:
Aphelion 2.98 AU (446 million km)
Perihelion 2.55 AU (381 million km)Inclination
10.6° to ecliptic
9.20° to invariable plane[4]
10 Hygiea? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Hygiea
Quote:
Aphelion 3.488 AU (522 million km)
Perihelion 2.799 AU (419 million km)Inclination 3.832° to ecliptic
As it happens 16 Psyche numbers seem to resemble those of 10 Hygiea a bit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Psyche
Quote:
Aphelion 3.32 AU (497 million km)
Perihelion 2.53 AU (378 million km)inclination 3.097°
I am guessing that I do not understand the complexity of Inclination as well as I should, but this is a starting point. For inclination both 10 Hygiea and 16 Psyche look better than Ceres as far as I can tell.
Bot 10 Hygiea and 16 Psyche are at the approximately 3.0 AU distance from the sun. Ceres is slightly better at about 2.7 AU from the sun.
Query: "How Much would I weigh on 16 Psyche?" (Not sure I trust the results).
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Weight on 16 Psyche
If you weighed 100 kg on Earth, you would weigh about 14.4 kg on 16 Psyche — roughly 14% of your Earth weight Wikipedia.Why so little?
16 Psyche is a large M‑type asteroid with a mean diameter of about 222 km and a mass of roughly 2.29 × 10¹⁹ kg Wikipedia. Its surface gravity is only about 0.144 m/s², compared to Earth’s 9.81 m/s². This means the gravitational pull is much weaker, so your weight drops proportionally.How the calculation works
Weight = mass × gravity
On Earth: 100 kg × 9.81 m/s² = 981 N (about 100 kg force)
On 16 Psyche: 100 kg × 0.144 m/s² ≈ 14.4 N (about 14.4 kg force)Extra facts
Escape velocity from 16 Psyche is about 180 m/s Wikipedia, which is much lower than Earth’s 11.2 km/s.Its low gravity means you could jump much higher than on Earth, but you’d still need to account for its irregular shape and lack of atmosphere.
In short: On 16 Psyche, you’d feel like you were on a very low‑gravity world — about 1/7th the gravity of Earth, but still enough to keep you from floating away. Science Mission Directorate
So that would be Moon similar gravity if it is as is said above.
>>>>>>>>>>>
So, the idea might be to thread the needle Earth>Moon>Mars/Phobos/Demos>Crossing Asteroids>10 Hygiea & 16 Psyche.
This particular topic is water oriented but with nuclear power metal propellants which could be obtained many places might work as well.
It Could be a "Twofer".
The beginnings of space elevator technology might be birthed on 10 Hygiea, I think. I would be looking for a pipe or wick type.
Lasers could be used to condition the temperature of the space elevator to allow gasses or ions to pass upward, perhaps.
In Earth soil, water Ions (+) can be drawn towards an (-) Cathode in the soil.
So, if you could fire electron beams at the top of the space elevator (Wick), you might be able to make (Holes, (Ions+) up the wick to be collected at the top.
Query:
Conducting positive ions on a electrodynamic space tether?
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Conducting Positive Ions in an Electrodynamic Space Tether
In an electrodynamic tether (EDT), the conductive wire moves through a planetary magnetic field, generating a motional electromotive force (EMF) across its length. This EMF can drive a current if the tether is connected to an external circuit, typically through ionospheric plasma MIT OpenCourseWare+1.How Current Flows in an EDT
Electron collection: At one end of the tether (often the “anode” in the circuit), ionospheric electrons are collected. These electrons flow through the tether and any load resistance.Current completion: To complete the circuit, positive ions from the surrounding plasma must be collected at the other end (the “cathode”) or emitted back into the plasma HandWiki.
Ion collection/emission:
Collection: Positive ions from the plasma are attracted to the cathode end of the tether, neutralizing the negative charge there. This maintains the circuit and allows continuous current flow.
Emission: In some designs, a cathode (e.g., thermionic, field emission, or hollow cathode) emits electrons into the plasma, which are then neutralized by positive ions, completing the circuit HandWiki.
Role of Positive Ions
Neutralization: Positive ions help maintain charge balance in the plasma sheath at the cathode end, preventing excessive negative charge buildup that could cause arcing or breakdown.Current return path: In some configurations, positive ions flow from the plasma into the tether at the cathode, completing the current loop back to the load HandWiki.
Space charge control: The density and velocity of positive ions affect the plasma sheath potential, which in turn influences the effective voltage and current in the tether.
Practical Considerations
Plasma environment: The ionospheric plasma must have sufficient density and mobility of positive ions to support the required current without excessive sheath potentials MIT OpenCourseWare.Cathode technology: The choice of cathode (thermionic, field emission, hollow cathode) determines how efficiently electrons are emitted and how positive ions are neutralized HandWiki.
System design: The geometry of the tether, its orientation relative to the magnetic field, and the plasma density all affect ion collection efficiency and overall power generation or propulsion performance Wikipedia.
In summary: In an electrodynamic tether, positive ions are essential for completing the current loop by either being collected at the cathode end or neutralizing emitted electrons. This process maintains the circuit, enables continuous operation, and is critical for both power generation and propulsion applications MIT OpenCourseWare+2.
So, my intention would be to try to convey Ions+ up the elevator as a wick type and to collect them at the top. Water vapor might work but I suspect that Methane, Ammonia, and CO might work better. Perhaps there are others.
This would then support a refilling station for large ships in orbit.
Then you might get into Mass Drivers to move solids. I am hoping that at some stage a Neumann Drive or Magdrive could project metals at a receiver and that upon impact, a vacuum welding event would occur. However, I do not know if that ejected plume can be focused enough.
Then finally I want a low gravity platform where a robotic community can mass produce very large spacecraft that can take off from it's surface and be refilled in orbit, to conduct missions to dry asteroids that are terrestrial crossers, and also perhaps Mars/Phobos/Deimos.
My presumption is that somewhere in the asteroid belt will be large amounts of Uranium or Thorium, but I also support the building of very large power stations that use very large concentrating mirrors. These then could project power to 10 Hygiea, and 16 Pshche.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-05 18:07:31)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#9 2026-07-06 00:39:26
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
I have done a lot of posting here yesterday and today.
I do think that 10 Hygiea would be a great place to do first experiments with space elevators. If it could work then other worlds could follow, Ceres, Luna, Mars perhaps.
But simple rocket engines might do quite a lot on 10 Hygiea.
Query: What is the wet Mass of Starship Version 3, excluding the super heavy?
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Wet Mass of Starship Version 3 (Excluding Super Heavy)
For Starship Version 3 (Block 3), the wet mass — the total mass of the spacecraft stage including propellant — is estimated to be about 5,300 metric tons when fully fueled newspaceeconomy.ca. This figure includes the Starship’s structure, systems, and ~1,800ton of liquid methane/liquid oxygen propellant, but excludes the Super Heavy booster.If you want the dry mass (structure and systems without propellant), independent estimates place it around ~75tons
www.easytool.me. This means the propellant mass is roughly ~1,725tons.
Summary:
Wet mass (Starship only, no Super Heavy): ~5,300t newspaceeconomy.ca
Dry mass (Starship only): ~75t www.easytool.me
Propellant mass (Starship only): ~1,800t www.easytool.me
These numbers are based on SpaceX’s published V3 design specs and independent analysis, and they represent the Starship stage’s mass before launch, not including the Super Heavy booster.
Of course the above is not going to be apples to apples. You leave out the Super Heavy. You also do not have atmosphere to inhibit launch and to assist landing. But most important the gravity is very much lower.
The language of the answer looks partially wrong, but this part comes close to expectations:
Quote:
Dry mass (Starship only): ~75t www.easytool.me
Propellant mass (Starship only): ~1,800t www.easytool.me
But I would raise the dry mass to 125t. maybe eventually 100t.
The cargo is said to be 100t+, but I will presume 100t.
Query: "What is the gravitation of 10 Hygiea relative to that of Earth?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Gravitational Strength of 10 Hygiea Relative to Earth
The equatorial surface gravity of 10 Hygiea is about 0.12m/s², compared to Earth’s 9.81m/s² Wikipedia. This means Hygiea’s gravity is roughly 1/82 of Earth’s gravity.How this compares
Earth’s gravity: 9.81m/s²Hygiea’s gravity: 0.12m/s²
Ratio: ~0.0148 (about 1.48% of Earth’s gravity)
If you could stand on Hygiea’s surface, you would feel about 1.5% as heavy as you do on Earth — so you’d weigh only about 1.5% of your Earth weight.
Why it’s so low
Hygiea’s low gravity is due to its small mass (about 8.74×10¹⁹kg) and relatively large size for its mass — it’s a dense, rocky body but still far smaller than Earth Wikipedia. Its mean density is about 2.06g/cm³, which is higher than Earth’s 5.5g/cm³, but its much smaller mass dominates the gravity calculation.Summary: 10 Hygiea’s gravity is only about 1.5% of Earth’s, making it one of the weakest surface gravities in the Solar System. www.galaxycalc.com
So, a crude calculation without other considerations would say you could lift 100r * 82 = 8200t of cargo using 1800t of propellants.
But depending on the nature of the cargo, you would need more dry mass for tanks for liquids, or supports for solids.
Still the rocket equation is much more merciful on 10 Hygiea it seems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So, I had a prior interest in unusual propellants earlier, Liquid Carbon Dioxide, and Water, and Oxygen.
The reason is economics and economics that don't work (Lack of a substance at reasonable cost).
Hydrogen, Carbon, Oxygen, Nitrogen all have different values at different locations depending on availability as one factor.
In low gravity situations Nitrogen seems scarce in the inner solar system. Carbon is scarce until Mars and perhaps Phobos and Deimos. Hydrogen that is available for use is available in small amounts on the Moon, Large amounts on Mars (Which has a large gravity well), and larger Amounts in the Outer Asteroid Belt.
Oxygen is available in almost any rock you would find, except maybe metal objects.
Oxygen is too reactive to use in hot engines, I expect and at high pressures. But Water and Carbon Monoxide being a good part Oxygen is a way to use Oxygen as a propellant.
So, water may be good in Nuclear Thermal and also Electric Plasma thrusters. I don't know if adding some extra Hydrogen or a light hydrocarbon to the water would improve results or not. I suspect it would as long as it did not harm the hardware. So, maybe Water/Vodka? I am presuming that the Hydrogen in the Vodka may help.
For Carbon Monoxide, I think it would be harder to add a Hydrocarbon like Methane, but if you could I think it would improve the expansion.
So, in other words, looking into water and Carbon Monoxide may conserve, Some substances such as Hydrogen, Carbon, and Nitrogen. different in each case.
Carbon is becoming an important building material It also appears in wood. So, depending on availability you might not want to spew it out for propulsion.
Hydrogen is Hard to come by in many situations, (but not at 10 Hygiea), but again, if you can use Oxygen in water or CO for throw mass, maybe that can be wise.
Nitrogen is in short supply in the inner solar system. There may be some in the Asteroid belt, but otherwise you have to try to get it from Jupiter's moons or Venus, which involves larger gravity wells and distances.
So that is why I am such a deviant about propellants.
And is probably important to remember the emerging option of Electric-Metal-Plasma Drives.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-06 01:15:48)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#10 2026-07-06 07:46:10
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
This article indicates that Bennu retained some Nitrogen: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA25tah8 Quote:
NASA’s Bennu samples also held a gum-like material and dust forged in exploding stars
Story by BeckhamLangford • 3w •
Query: "Water in Bennu?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Water in Asteroid Bennu
NASA’s OSIRIS-REx mission returned the first asteroid sample from Bennu in September 2023, and analysis has revealed clear evidence that the asteroid’s parent body once had liquid water.Evidence of ancient water
Scientists found several key indicators in the Bennu samples:Hydrated silicates (phyllosilicates) — clay minerals that form only in the presence of liquid water www.asteroidbennu.com.
Magnesium–sodium phosphate — a mineral linked to water–rock interactions at moderate temperatures www.asteroidbennu.com.
Carbonate minerals — products of aqueous reactions between water and rock www.asteroidbennu.com.
These minerals show that Bennu’s parent body was geologically active and water-rich, possibly with subsurface oceans or briny layers, rather than being a dry, airless rock www.asteroidbennu.com.
How water flowed through Bennu
High-resolution nanoscale analysis of a Bennu fragment (OREX-800066-3) revealed three distinct chemical domains Earth.com+1.Aliphatic-rich regions — open-chain hydrocarbons.
Carbonate-rich domains — inorganic minerals formed in water.
Nitrogen-bearing organic-rich domains — complex organics preserved in water-poor areas.
The sharp boundaries suggest water moved through narrow channels, chemically altering some regions while leaving others untouched. This preserved separate stages of Bennu’s history, including both mineral growth and fragile organic chemistry Earth.com+1.
When it happened
Isotopic analysis places these water–rock interactions within the first few million years of the solar system, before Earth fully cooled www.asteroidbennu.com. The parent body was large enough to retain internal heat from radioactive decay, allowing liquid water to persist.Why it matters
Water is essential for life’s chemistry. The presence of abundant water and complex organics in Bennu’s parent body suggests that such asteroids could have delivered both water and prebiotic chemistry to early Earth, potentially aiding the origin of life www.asteroidbennu.com. This finding also shows that water was widespread in the early solar system, possibly common in other planetary systems.In short, Bennu’s sample confirms that its parent body was once a water-rich, geologically active world, with water playing a key role in shaping its chemistry and potentially seeding Earth with life’s building blocks.
https://www.nasa.gov/news-release/nasas … bon-water/
Quote:
NASA’s Bennu Asteroid Sample Contains Carbon, Water
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101955_BennuWater:
Quote:
OSIRIS-REx observations have resulted in a (self-styled) conservative estimate of about 7 × 108 kg water in one form alone, neglecting additional forms. This is a water content of ~1 wt.%, and potentially much more. In turn this suggests transient pockets of water beneath Bennu's regolith. The surficial water may be lost from the collected samples. However, if the sample return capsule maintains low temperatures, the largest (centimeter-scale) fragments may contain measurable quantities of adsorbed water, and some fraction of Bennu's ammonium compounds.[72] A separate estimate, including other forms of water storage, is 6.2 wt%.[73]
My guess is that the bigger Carbonaceous Asteroids that are not shattered may contain more water as a percentage of materials.
Query: "How much iron could be in Bennu?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Iron Content in Asteroid Bennu
NASA’s OSIRIS-REx mission returned about 122g of pristine regolith from asteroid Bennu in September 2023, and laboratory analyses have revealed that Bennu’s material contains significant iron in multiple chemical forms NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).Major iron-bearing minerals
Magnetite is a major component, indicating abundant Fe²⁺ in a crystalline oxide form NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).
FeNi sulfides (iron–nickel sulfides) are also present in minor amounts, showing reduced iron (Fe²⁺) in metallic and sulfide phases NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).
Phyllosilicate minerals (hydrated clays) contain variable iron oxidation states — some regions have more Fe²⁺, others more Fe³⁺ — as detected by synchrotron XANES spectroscopy USRA-Houston.
Other minerals in Bennu’s regolith include carbonates, sulfates, chlorides, fluorides, and hydrated phosphates, all of which can incorporate iron in different oxidation states science.gsfc.nasa.gov+1.
Quantitative estimates
While the exact total mass of iron in Bennu’s entire asteroid is not yet published, the returned samples are dominated by carbonaceous chondrite-like material, which typically contains ~10–20wt% iron depending on mineralogy. Given that Bennu’s mass is about 7.3×10¹⁰kg astronex.net, and assuming a composition similar to CI-type carbonaceous chondrites, the total iron mass could be in the range of ~7–14million kilograms. This is a rough estimate — the actual value depends on the proportion of iron-bearing minerals in Bennu’s bulk composition.Key points
Iron in Bennu exists in both oxidized (Fe³⁺ in magnetite, phyllosilicates) and reduced (Fe²⁺ in sulfides, some clays) forms USRA-Houston.
The variability in oxidation states suggests that Bennu’s parent body experienced a range of aqueous and thermal conditions early in the solar system USRA-Houston.
The high abundance of iron-bearing minerals makes Bennu a potential source of metallic and oxide iron for future space resource studies.
In summary, Bennu contains millions of kilograms of iron in a mix of metallic, sulfide, and oxide forms, with detailed analysis of the returned samples providing insight into its early solar system history and potential resource value.
Iron is one of the more easily extracted construction materials.
Query: "How much Mass does it take to build an O'Niell Cylinder habitat?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Mass Required to Build an O’Neill Cylinder Habitat
An O’Neill cylinder is a large rotating space habitat designed to provide artificial gravity and habitable space. The most common reference design is Island Three, with two counter‑rotating cylinders each about 6.4 km (4 mi) in diameter and 32 km (20 mi) long Wikipedia.Estimated Total Mass
Calculations for a 6.4 km diameter, 32 km long O’Neill cylinder show that the total structure mass (including the shell, internal structures, and air) is on the order of 700 million metric tons spacecalcs.com. Breaking this down:Shell mass (aluminum alloy T6): ~679 million tons
Internal structures (floors, supports, etc.): ~1.26 billion tons
Air mass (at Earth‑like pressure): ~16,000 tons spacecalcs.com
The internal floor area is about 8,040 km², capable of supporting millions of people depending on density Anisoptera Games.
Material Considerations
Best modern materials (steel, aluminum, titanium alloys) have strength‑to‑weight ratios suitable for this scale, but the shell is still extremely massive due to the need to withstand Earth‑equivalent air pressure (10 tonnes/m²) Anisoptera Games.Fiber composites (carbon fiber, Kevlar) could reduce mass by 10–15× compared to metals, but current technology limits their use in such large, rotating structures.
Carbon nanotubes (theoretical) could cut mass by 20×, but they are not yet viable for this scale Anisoptera Games.
Why the Mass is So High
The shell must be thick enough to contain the internal air pressure without buckling.The structure must be strong enough to handle the centrifugal forces from rotation.
Radiation shielding and other systems add to the total mass.
In summary: Building a 6.4 km × 32 km O’Neill cylinder would require about 700 million metric tons of material, with the shell alone making up the vast majority of that weight spacecalcs.com. This is comparable to the mass of a small country, highlighting the immense engineering and logistical challenge of such a project.
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
The mass of Bennu is approximately 85 million tons (or about 7.329×10^10 kg)
Fiveable
Fiveable
+1
. This asteroid is about 1,640 feet (500 meters) in diameter and has a low density, indicating it is a rubble pile structure rather than a solid body.
So, a Stanford Torus may be more realistic. Query: "How much Mass is needed to build a Stanford Torus?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Mass Required to Build a Stanford Torus
The Stanford Torus is a proposed rotating space habitat designed to house about 10,000 people in a toroidal (doughnut-shaped) ring approximately 1.8 km in diameter, rotating once per minute to produce 1g of artificial gravity Wikipedia+1.Total Mass
According to detailed design studies, the total mass of the Stanford Torus is about 10.1 megatons (10,100,000 tons) digitalhabitats.global+1. This includes:Radiation shielding: ~9.8–9.9 million tons (about 98% of total mass) digitalhabitats.global+1.
Habitat structure and systems: ~150,000 tons of strong, lightweight materials like aluminum digitalhabitats.global.
Atmosphere and internal systems: included in the total mass.
Radiation Shielding
The shield is a 1.7m thick layer of raw lunar regolith (lunar soil) RTF | Rethinking The Future+1, chosen for its effectiveness in blocking cosmic radiation and micrometeoroids. This massive shielding is the single largest contributor to the total mass.Structural Materials
The habitat’s shell is made from aluminum stressed-skin construction, similar to suspension bridges, to keep structural mass low while maintaining strength digitalhabitats.global+1.Construction Context
The design assumes construction at the Earth–Moon L5 Lagrange point, using in-situ resources from the Moon or asteroids to minimize Earth-based supply needs grokipedia.com. The shield could be built from lunar material, and the structure from processed lunar or asteroidal metals.In summary:
Total mass: ~10.1Mt
Shielding mass: ~9.9Mt (98% of total)
Structural mass: ~0.15Mt
Primary material: Aluminum shell + lunar regolith shield digitalhabitats.global+2
I know that Calliban once provided an estimate. But it looks like Bennu could provide for up to 8 Standford Torus devices.
But instead of making suburban housing in space, maybe 1 or two spaceships of large size could be created.
Steps:
1) If a Lunar Mass driver works, build a ship to fly to Bennu, with machinery suitable to process the object.
A small amount of space may be provided for humans, but mostly it would host robots and would be more or less "Dry".
2) Process Bennu, by largely creating a double wall balloon of Metal? and stuffing the bulk of the materials of Bennu inside the double walls.
Provide energy, (Solar, Nuclear), provide propulsion method, (Metal Plasma).
* So partially process the materials of Bennu to make a double shell and put the rest of the materials between the walls.
3) Fly to another world, and repeat/expand. This next world could be easy to reach as a priority, and if you had enough water, Carbon, Nitrogen, and Phosphorous from the Materials of Bennu, it could be of any variety including stony.
Inside of the double shell you could build subparts including centrifuges and greenhouses and factories.
4) Consider flying to Mars/Phobos/Deimos, or a Mars crossing asteroid that might be Carbonacious.
This would be like lighting a candle and then moving about to light more candles.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-06 09:40:40)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#11 2026-07-06 09:17:25
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
Which Asteroids are easiest to reach with spacecraft?
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Easiest Asteroids to Reach with Spacecraft
The “easiest” asteroids to reach are generally near-Earth asteroids (NEAs) that are relatively large, have stable orbits, and are close enough to Earth for a spacecraft to reach them with current propulsion technology. These targets are often prioritized for missions because they require less fuel and shorter travel times.Key factors for “ease of reach”
Proximity to Earth: Closer asteroids require less delta‑v (change in velocity) to reach.
Orbital stability: Objects with predictable, non‑chaotic orbits are easier to plan trajectories for.
Size: Larger asteroids are easier to navigate and sample.
Rotation and shape: Simple, slow‑rotating bodies are safer for spacecraft operations.
Mission goals: Some missions target specific scientific or sample‑return objectives, which can influence target selection Little Astronomy.
Examples of relatively easy-to-reach asteroids
Bennu (101955) – Visited by NASA’s OSIRIS‑REx in 2018–2023. A carbonaceous NEA about 500 m in diameter, it was chosen for its composition and proximity to Earth Science Mission Directorate+1.
Ryugu (162173) – Target of Japan’s Hayabusa2 mission in 2018–2023. Also a carbonaceous NEA, ~900 m in diameter, with a stable orbit Little Astronomy.
Eros (433) – First asteroid orbited and landed on by NEAR Shoemaker in 2000. ~34 km in diameter, with a stable, slow‑rotating shape Little Astronomy.
Vesta (4) – Visited by NASA’s Dawn mission in 2011. A large, rocky asteroid (~525 km diameter) in the main belt, but reachable with current tech due to its size and orbital characteristics Wikipedia.
Ceres (1) – Largest object in the main belt (~950 km diameter), visited by Dawn in 2015. While farther from Earth, its size and stability make it a feasible target Wikipedia.
Near‑Earth asteroids in the “easiest” category
NASA’s Asteroid Watch lists upcoming close approaches of NEAs within ~7.5 million km (about 19.5 lunar distances) NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL). These include:(2026 LD) – ~170 ft, closest approach June 9, 2026
(2026 KM3) – ~110 ft, closest approach June 9, 2026
(2011 LT17) – ~470 ft, closest approach June 12, 2026
(2026 LV) – ~47 ft, closest approach June 16, 2026
(2003 LN6) – ~130 ft, closest approach June 18, 2026
While these are small, their proximity makes them technically easier to reach than distant main‑belt asteroids.
Summary
The easiest asteroids to reach are typically large, stable‑orbit NEAs like Bennu and Ryugu, or major main‑belt bodies like Vesta and Ceres. Smaller NEAs with very close approaches (e.g., 2026 LD, KM3) are also easier to reach due to proximity, even if they are small. These targets balance scientific value with practical mission constraints.
So, referring to the just prior post as well, I think that a Lunar Mass Driver is to be very important.
While the Moon cannot spare a lot of volatile materials, it could contribute materials that would create large spaceships that could travel to certain asteroids and to begin processing them. I think that in a like manner one could be created to begin working with Phobos and Deimos.
This would not interfere with sending ships to Mars itself.
Query: "What is the relative size of Ryugu and Bennu?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Relative Size of Ryugu and Bennu
Ryugu is about twice as large as Bennu in diameter.Ryugu measures roughly 1 kilometer (1,004 m) in diameter Wikipedia.
Bennu is about 0.49 kilometers (490 m) in diameter Wikipedia.
This means Ryugu’s diameter is approximately 2.04 times that of Bennu. Both are small asteroids compared to other bodies in the solar system, but Ryugu is significantly larger, making it about twice as big in size.
So, a consortium of entities from Earth could process those two first, then perhaps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros
Image Quote: 
Quote:
Animation of NEAR Shoemaker trajectory from 19 February 1996 to 12 February 2001. NEAR Shoemaker Eros Earth Mathilde Sun .
Quote:
Water and hydroxyl, once believed to only exist in primitive bodies beyond 2.5-3 Astronomical Units (AU), have now been detected on the surfaces of near-Earth asteroids 433 Eros and 1036 Ganymed. This breakthrough challenges previous assumptions about the distribution of water in our solar system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/253_Mathilde
Quote:
253 Mathilde is an asteroid in the intermediate asteroid belt, approximately 50 kilometers in diameter, that was discovered by Austrian astronomer Johann Palisa at Vienna Observatory on 12 November 1885. It has a relatively elliptical orbit that requires more than four years to circle the Sun. This tumbling asteroid has an unusually slow rate of rotation, requiring 17.4 days to complete a 360° revolution about its axis. It is a primitive C-type asteroid, which means the surface has a high proportion of carbon; giving it a dark surface that reflects only 4% of the light that falls on it.[8]
So, I return to this idea from the previous post:
A beehive like structure with double walls containing regolith between them. Compartments in that structure.
And inside you could provide distinct machines to provide artificial gravity of a magnitude suitable for human health. Greenhouses, Etc.
So, as you "Digested" a small asteroid like Bennu, you could put most of its mass inside of the double shell. Then do further processing as you moved to another asteroid. Rinse and repeat.
By the time you got into processing Mathilde next might come 10 Hygeia, and 16 Psyche.
Once you had 10 Hygeia, you could start bringing volatile substances inward to "Irrigate" Stony Asteroids and perhaps Mars/Phobos/Deimos.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-06 09:46:45)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#12 2026-07-07 07:37:49
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
Along the way I became aware of "253 Mathilde". It has attributes that interest me including size.
But it is said that water has not been detected on it. My understanding is that is not unusual.
It is thought that it is a C1 or C2 Carbonaceous Chondrite.
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
CI1 vs. CM2 Carbonaceous Asteroids
CI1 and CM2 are two of the most primitive meteorite groups in the carbonaceous chondrite class, both originating from water-rich asteroids and cometary nuclei, but with distinct compositions and alteration histories.CI1 Carbonaceous Chondrites
Origin: Believed to come from a single, very water-rich asteroid or cometary nucleus SPIE Digital Library.Composition: Extremely chemically primitive, with elemental abundances closely matching the Sun. Carbon content is high (3–5 wt%, mostly organic) Wikipedia.
Alteration: Extensive aqueous alteration has destroyed visible chondrules, but the original solar system composition is preserved Wikipedia.
Oxygen isotopes: Distinctive enrichment in ¹⁸O and ¹⁷O compared to CM chondrites Wikipedia.
Organics: Contain amino acids with L-enantiomer excess, similar to terrestrial life, and complex microfossils resembling extinct microorganisms SPIE Digital Library.
Examples: Ivuna, Orgueil, Alais.
CM2 Carbonaceous Chondrites
Origin: Likely from a variety of water-rich asteroids, possibly related to the breakup of a single parent body NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)+1.Composition: Also primitive, with significant carbon (up to ~3 wt%) in organic and mineral forms Wikipedia.
Alteration: Undergone aqueous alteration, but less extreme than CI1; some show metamorphism (400–700°C) on the parent body NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).
Organics: Contain amino acids with L-enantiomer excess and microfossils similar to acritarchs and cyanobacteria SPIE Digital Library.
Examples: Murchison, Murray, Tagish Lake.
Key Differences
Alteration degree: CI1 has undergone more extreme aqueous alteration, destroying chondrules; CM2 has preserved more chondrules but still altered.Oxygen isotopes: CI1 shows heavier ¹⁸O enrichment than CM2 Wikipedia.
Metamorphism: Some CM2 meteorites show thermal metamorphism on the parent body, which is rare in CI1 NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).
Parent body diversity: CM2 may come from multiple asteroids; CI1 likely from a single, very water-rich body SPIE Digital Library.
Scientific Significance
Both groups are crucial for understanding:Early solar system chemistry and the formation of volatiles.
The origin of organic matter and potential prebiotic chemistry.
The role of water-rich asteroids/comets in delivering organics to early Earth SPIE Digital Library.
In summary, CI1 asteroids are more chemically primitive and heavily altered, while CM2 asteroids are slightly less altered and may have experienced some thermal metamorphism, but both are key to studying the building blocks of life in the early solar system.
So, good chances that it has some water at least locked up in minerals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/253_Mathilde
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 7703004526
Well this is more favorable per water:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
253 Mathilde contains hydrated minerals, primarily phyllosilicates, indicating the presence of water-altered materials on its surface.
Composition and Hydration
253 Mathilde is classified as a C-type (carbonaceous) asteroid, which is known for a high carbon content and a dark surface that reflects only about 4% of incident light
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
. Its surface composition is thought to be similar to CI1 or CM2 carbonaceous chondrite meteorites, which are rich in phyllosilicate minerals—a class of hydrated silicates formed through aqueous alteration processes
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
. These minerals are direct evidence that Mathilde’s material has interacted with water in its early history, even if only in trace amounts.Observational Evidence
The NEAR Shoemaker spacecraft flyby in 1997 provided high-resolution imaging and spectral data of Mathilde’s surface
jhuapl.edu
jhuapl.edu
. Analysis of these data confirmed the asteroid’s primitive, water-altered composition, with uniform brightness and color across craters suggesting a homogeneous distribution of hydrated minerals
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
. The presence of large craters, such as Ishikari and Karoo, did not reveal layering, implying that the hydrated minerals are pervasive throughout the asteroid’s outer layers
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
.Implications
The detection of phyllosilicates on Mathilde indicates that water played a role in its early formation, likely through low-temperature aqueous alteration of silicate materials. This makes Mathilde a valuable analog for understanding the hydration history of primitive asteroids and the potential delivery of water to early planetary bodies
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
+1
. Its composition also suggests that many small carbonaceous asteroids may originate from larger hydrated parent bodies like Mathilde, which underwent catastrophic disruptions
sciety.org
sciety.org
.
In summary, hydrated minerals on 253 Mathilde are primarily phyllosilicates, confirming that this asteroid contains water-altered materials and providing insight into the early solar system’s aqueous processes.Read less
So, perhaps if it does not have ice, it can have hydrated situations similar to Bennu and Ryugu.
Bennu:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Water in Asteroid Bennu
NASA’s OSIRIS-REx mission returned the first sample from asteroid Bennu to Earth in September 2023, and detailed analyses have revealed that Bennu once contained liquid water and that this water played a key role in shaping its chemistry.Evidence of ancient water
Initial studies found both carbon and water in the sample, suggesting it is rich in organic material and hydrated minerals NASA. More recent high-resolution analyses show that Bennu’s composition is divided into three distinct chemical domains at the nanoscale Phys.org+1. These domains include:Aliphatic-rich regions (hydrocarbon chains)
Carbonate-rich domains (minerals formed in the presence of water)
Nitrogen-bearing organic-rich domains (complex organics that may be fragile to water)
The sharp separation between these zones indicates that water flowed through Bennu in narrow channels, altering some areas while leaving others chemically unchanged Phys.org+1.
Evaporite minerals and brines
Further research has identified evaporite minerals such as sodium-bearing phosphates, carbonates, sulfates, chlorides, and fluorides The Economic Times. These form when salty water evaporates slowly, leaving behind salt deposits. Their presence means Bennu’s parent body had long-lived brines—salty liquid water—that chemically altered the rocks over time. This process, called aqueous alteration, is common on Earth but was not always thought to occur on small asteroids The Economic Times.Implications
These findings suggest that Bennu was once a salty, watery world that underwent internal water-driven chemistry. Such processes could have preserved organic compounds and delivered both water and organics to early Earth, potentially contributing to the origins of life The Economic Times. The sample’s pristine chemistry also offers a rare, unaltered record of early solar system conditions, allowing scientists to study the history of water in asteroids in unprecedented detail Earth.com.In short, water in Bennu is not just present—it once flowed through its interior, shaped its mineralogy, and may have preserved the building blocks of life.
Ryugu:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Water in Ryugu: Late Liquid Flow Found in Ancient Asteroid
Recent research has revealed that liquid water once flowed through the asteroid Ryugu more than a billion years after it first formed, overturning the long-held belief that asteroid water activity only occurred in the earliest stages of the solar system www.u-tokyo.ac.jp+1.Discovery and Evidence
The finding comes from analysis of tiny rock fragments returned by Japan’s Hayabusa2 spacecraft, which visited Ryugu between 2018 and 2019 and brought back about 5.4 grams of material to Earth Universe Today. Scientists measured the isotopic ratios of lutetium (Lu) and hafnium (Hf) in the samples. The unusually high ¹⁷⁶Hf/¹⁷⁶Lu ratio indicated that a fluid had washed out lutetium from certain rocks, a process that only happens if water or another fluid moved through the asteroid’s interior www.u-tokyo.ac.jp+1.Timing and Mechanism
Ryugu is a carbonaceous (C-type) asteroid that formed from ice and dust in the outer solar system. The new data show that water activity persisted far longer than expected — at least a billion years after formation. Researchers suggest that an impact event may have melted ice, creating channels for meltwater to flow through the asteroid’s rubble-pile structure Universe Today.Implications
For asteroid evolution: Ryugu’s chemical record preserves a “pristine” record of late fluid flow, showing that water in asteroids can remain active for much longer than thought www.u-tokyo.ac.jp.For Earth’s water origin: Carbonaceous asteroids like Ryugu are thought to have delivered much of Earth’s water when the planet was young. This late water activity in Ryugu supports the idea that such asteroids could have been active water sources for longer than previously modeled Space.com+1.
For planetary science: The discovery forces a rethink of starting conditions for planetary water systems and the timing of asteroidal water delivery to early Earth Space.com.
In short, Ryugu is not just a water-bearing asteroid — it’s a time capsule of late-stage water activity in the early solar system, with implications for how planets like Earth acquired their oceans.
So if https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/253_Mathilde is similar in materials to Bennu, it has everything desired in large quantities.
Image Quote: 
Quote:
Aphelion 3.35003411 AU (501.157970 Gm)
Perihelion 1.9467702 AU (291.23268 Gm)
So, it just pokes its nose down below the Main Belts inner edge (2.1 AU).
And it passes upward past most of the large asteroids, (2.7-3.1 AU).
Quote:
Inclination 6.7427122°
Inclination is not too bad.
Size:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
253 Mathilde is a C-type asteroid located in the main asteroid belt, discovered on November 12, 1885. It has a mean diameter of approximately 53 kilometers and an irregular shape with dimensions of 66 km × 48 km × 46 km. Mathilde is notable for its slow rotation rate, taking about 17.4 days to complete a full rotation on its axis, and it reflects only about 4% of the light that falls on it due to its carbon-rich composition. The asteroid was visited by the NEAR Shoemaker spacecraft in 1997, revealing its heavily cratered surface and the presence of large impact craters.
Wikipedia
+3
So, once you got set up there if it does have all the materials, you have a vast amount of materials to work with. Lots of already crushed regolith, it seems, as it looks like a rubble pile.
CO as a Propellant?
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Carbon Monoxide as a Nuclear Propellant
Carbon monoxide (CO) can be used as a rocket propellant, especially in in-situ resource utilization (ISRU) systems for Mars missions, but it is not typically used as the primary fuel in nuclear thermal rocket (NTR) designs.Propellant Performance
Specific impulse (Isp): CO/O₂ mixtures have an Isp in the ~200–290 range depending on chamber pressure and temperature Space Exploration Stack Exchange. This is lower than LOX/CH₄ (~300–350) or LOX/LH₂ (~450), so CO is less efficient for high-thrust, high-efficiency missions.Ignition and combustion: NASA experiments showed CO/O₂ can be ignited and sustain combustion when fed from an oxygen/hydrogen ignition source NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS). This makes it viable for certain engine configurations, though it may not be ideal as the sole ignition source in remote Mars engines.
ISRU Production on Mars
Martian atmosphere is ~96% CO₂. CO can be produced via reverse water-gas shift (RWGS) or photochemical reduction to split CO₂ into CO and O₂ NASA TechPort+1.In NASA’s Integrated Mars In-Situ Propellant Production System (IMISPPS), CO is part of a methane + CO fuel stream, with O₂ produced from water electrolysis NASA TechPort.
Some CO is removed via cryogenic separation to improve specific impulse NASA TechPort.
Nuclear Thermal Rocket (NTR) Context
NTRs use nuclear reactors to heat propellant to high expansion in a nozzle. Common fuels are hydrogen (high Isp, low molecular weight) or methane (better performance than CO).CO’s higher molecular weight (~28 g/mol) than hydrogen (~2 g/mol) or methane (~16 g/mol) reduces Isp and increases nozzle mass, making it less attractive for NTRs unless used in hybrid or staged systems.
However, CO could be used in surface-to-surface or short-hop missions where high Isp is less critical, or as part of a methane/CO mixture in ISRU-fed NTRs NASA TechPort+1.
Practical Considerations
Storage: CO liquefies at ~−191.5°C, colder than LOX but warmer than LH₂ Space Exploration Stack Exchange.Hazards: CO is toxic and flammable; handling requires safety measures.
Cost: CO production from CO₂ avoids water consumption compared to the Sabatier reaction, which could be advantageous for Mars Space Exploration Stack Exchange.
Bottom line: CO is a feasible propellant for certain Mars ISRU systems and can be used in hybrid or surface missions, but for nuclear thermal rockets, it is less efficient than hydrogen or methane. It may be more practical as part of a methane/CO fuel blend or in non-NTR applications where Isp is less critical.
So, yes particularly if you can mix in some Methane.
Especially with the gravity so low.
Solids like metals, Carbon, and Silicon, could be propellants for some types of electric propulsions.
So, I think it is a decent little world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/253_Mathi … ectory.gif
So, possible jumps Earth>Eros>Mathilde
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros
Quote:
Aphelion 1.7825 AU
Perihelion 1.1334 AU
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-07 08:29:43)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#13 2026-07-07 16:55:10
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
If the materials of 253_Mathilde is somewhat like that of Bennu and/or Ryugu then we have some data to work with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101955_Bennu
Quote:
Water
According to Dante Lauretta,[54] OSIRIS-REx Principal Investigator, "Bennu appears to be a very water-rich target, and water is the most interesting and perhaps the most lucrative commodity that you would mine from an asteroid".[55][56]Predicted beforehand,[57] Dante Lauretta (University of Arizona) reiterates that Bennu is water-rich already detectable while OSIRIS-REx was still technically in approach.[58]
Preliminary spectroscopic surveys of the asteroid's surface by OSIRIS-REx confirmed magnetite and the meteorite-asteroid linkage,[59][60][61] dominated by phyllosilicates.[62][63][64] Phyllosilicates, among others, hold water.[65][66][67] Bennu's water spectra were detectable on approach,[60][68] reviewed by outside scientists,[69][45] then confirmed from orbit.[42][70][71][72]
OSIRIS-REx observations have resulted in a (self-styled) conservative estimate of about 7 × 108 kg water in one form alone, neglecting additional forms. This is a water content of ~1 wt.%, and potentially much more. In turn this suggests transient pockets of water beneath Bennu's regolith. The surficial water may be lost from the collected samples. However, if the sample return capsule maintains low temperatures, the largest (centimeter-scale) fragments may contain measurable quantities of adsorbed water, and some fraction of Bennu's ammonium compounds.[72] A separate estimate, including other forms of water storage, is 6.2 wt%.[73]
NASA and university sample facilities are preparing to secure, study, and curate the sample, predicted to be rich in water and organic compounds.[74][75][76]
The German SAL (Sample Analysis Laboratory) is preparing to receive cosmochemical water from Ryugu, Bennu, and other airless bodies.[77]
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Discovered Materials in Asteroid Bennu
NASA’s OSIRIS-REx mission returned about 120 grams of pristine rock and dust from asteroid Bennu in 2023, revealing a rich and complex mix of materials from the early solar system. These samples are especially valuable because they have not been altered by Earth’s atmosphere or environment.Organic molecules and life’s building blocks
Amino acids: 14 of the 20 types used by life on Earth to make proteins were detected NASA.
Nucleobases: All five bases used in DNA and RNA were found, including adenine, guanine, cytosine, thymine, and uracil NASA+1.
Phosphates: Found alongside nucleobases, essential for DNA/RNA structure NASA.
Sugars: Ribose (key for RNA) and glucose (a six-carbon sugar) were identified; deoxyribose was absent, which may support the “RNA world” hypothesis NASA.
Carboxylic acids: Detected alongside amino acids, important in biochemistry NASA.
Ammonia: Present in high abundance, capable of reacting with formaldehyde to form amino acids NASA.
Minerals and inclusions
Chondrules and refractory inclusions: These are among the first solids to form in the solar system, but Bennu contains them in very small amounts, suggesting it formed in a region where they were rare Natural History Museum.
Silica-based minerals: Part of the chondrule group, indicating early solar system processes Natural History Museum.
Carbonaceous minerals: Bennu is a carbon-rich asteroid, rich in carbon-based organic compounds ScienceDaily.
Water-related materials
Salts: Evidence of past saltwater “brine” pockets, possibly evaporating to leave salt deposits similar to dried lakebeds Natural History Museum.
Hydrogen and oxygen compounds: Indications of water alteration in the asteroid’s history ScienceDaily.
Unique chemical regions
Nanoscale analysis revealed three distinct organic–mineral regions, each shaped by past water activity, showing that Bennu’s chemistry is not uniform ScienceDaily.
Other notable findings
Gum-like substance: A previously unseen organic material in astromaterials NASA.
Supernova dust: Unexpectedly high abundance of dust from supernova explosions NASA.
In summary, Bennu’s samples contain a wide array of organic molecules, minerals, and water-related materials that together suggest the asteroid formed in a cold, wet environment rich in the chemical ingredients necessary for life. These discoveries provide strong evidence that such building blocks were widespread in the early solar system and could have been delivered to Earth by similar asteroids.
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Iron Content in Asteroid Bennu
Analysis of asteroid Bennu’s returned samples shows that iron is present in significant amounts, primarily in the form of Fe-bearing sulfides and magnetite.Petrologic and mineralogic studies of Bennu particles collected by NASA’s OSIRIS-REx mission reveal that the bulk of the material is a fine-grained matrix dominated by Mg-phyllosilicates (clay minerals). Within this matrix, Fe-bearing sulfides (mostly pyrrhotite) and magnetite are common accessory phases USRA-Houston.
For example, one analyzed particle had:
93% matrix
3.1% Fe-sulfide
3.0% magnetite
0.9% carbonate USRA-Houston
Other particles showed similar proportions, with Fe-sulfide content ranging from 0.5% to 2% and magnetite from 1% to 3%. These Fe-bearing minerals are key iron reservoirs in Bennu’s composition.
While Bennu’s overall elemental abundance is not fully quantified in the provided results, the presence of these minerals means that iron is a major component of its bulk mineralogy, though not the dominant element overall. The exact total iron mass fraction would require a full elemental analysis of the entire sample set, but the mineralogic data confirm that iron is a significant constituent.
In summary, Bennu contains iron-rich sulfides and magnetite, with Fe-sulfide and magnetite together making up several percent of its particle composition USRA-Houston. ScienceDaily
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/253_Mathilde
Quote:
253 Mathilde is an asteroid in the intermediate asteroid belt, approximately 50 kilometers in diameter
So, if contents are similar to Bennu, there is a lot of it.
Salts are of interest. Also, by baking blocks of the material in vacuum ovens, Volatiles and Ion can be extracted.
The Blocks could be either sintered or cast into shapes.
I think types of Iron can be made that would allow bonding blocks into very big structures.
Beehive shapes might be possible: https://ar.inspiredpencil.com/pictures- … e-clip-art
Or Cookie Jars: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Co … C3&first=1
https://www.desertcart.lk/products/3253 … ookies-jar
https://www.bing.com/shop/productdetail … ORM=SHOPIC
Quote:
Ukonic Star Wars Death Star Ceramic Cookie Jar Container | 9.75 Inches Tall
Image Quote:
You really do want a lid. You have to remember Stupid and Malice. An explosion inside might have it's pressure released if the lid would swing open.
So, the jar would be made of sintered/cast blocks joined into a shape by Steel/Iron fixtures.
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
The Spinning Thing Inside a Washer or Dryer
The spinning thing you see inside a washer or dryer is called the drum.In a washing machine, the drum is the rotating cylinder that holds your clothes during the wash, rinse, and spin cycles. It’s supported by an outer tub and rotates to agitate clothes in water and detergent, helping to clean them SpinChill. In some models, the drum has raised paddles or a pulsator to lift and drop clothes for better cleaning SpinChill.
In a dryer, the drum is the rotating cylinder where clothes tumble during the drying cycle. It spins to move clothes through hot air, ensuring even drying SpinChill.
Key features of the drum:
Material: Often stainless steel for durability, but some use plastic or coated metal SpinChill.
Design: May have perforations for water drainage in washers or smooth surfaces to protect fabrics in dryers SpinChill.
Support: Works with an outer tub in washers to stabilize the spin and with a drive system (motor, belt, pulley) to rotate SpinChill.
In short, whether it’s a washer or dryer, the drum is the central rotating chamber that moves your clothes through the cleaning or drying process. Englishan
So, you can put a drum or drums inside of the Cookie Jar.
I am thinking that only the human hab would be pressurized.
So, 50 * 50 * 50 = 125,000 Cubic km (Just approximately) But the world is very porous.
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Porosity of 253 Mathilde
Recent research suggests that 253 Mathilde has a highly porous, rubble-pile interior with a cohesive but low-density structure.Bulk density and porosity estimates
Mathilde’s mean density is about 1.3 g/cm³, which is much lower than the density of solid rock (~3–4 g/cm³). This low density is consistent with a porous interior where much of the volume is empty space Wikipedia. Hydrodynamics simulations of giant craters on Mathilde indicate that large primitive asteroids like it can have cohesive and porous interiors, with porosity likely in the range of ~50–70% for its regolith grokipedia.com.Evidence from Karoo crater
One of Mathilde’s largest craters, Karoo, is ~33 km in diameter and formed through the compaction of its highly porous regolith. The porosity of this regolith is estimated at 50–70%, and the crater’s preservation is due to the damping of shock waves in the porous material, which limits ejecta and seismic disruption grokipedia.com. This process has also increased Mathilde’s bulk density by about 20% over time through repeated compaction events.Structural implications
The combination of low bulk density, large preserved craters, and high regolith porosity supports the idea that Mathilde is a rubble pile — a loosely bound aggregate of fragments held together by gravity and cohesion. This structure is common among small to medium-sized carbonaceous asteroids and explains why Mathilde’s surface features remain well-preserved despite its size.Summary
Bulk density: ~1.3 g/cm³ (low for a solid body)
Regolith porosity: ~50–70% (from Karoo crater data)
Interior structure: Cohesive, porous rubble pile
Key evidence: Large preserved craters, low density, compaction-induced density increase
In short, 253 Mathilde is highly porous, with its interior likely containing over half of its volume as empty space, held together by gravity and cohesion grokipedia.com+1.
So about approximately 62,500 to 37,500 cubic km of materials.
And I wonder if you could make caves inside the asteroid?
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-09 08:51:05)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#14 2026-07-08 08:25:44
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
I have been thinking about what Starship could offer for sending probes to the asteroid belt.
We apparently are getting better instrumentation for it: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA27oh0Z Quote:
A new observatory spotted 11,000 asteroids in weeks, including 33 near-Earth objects
Story by BeckhamLangford • 1d •
When other "Orders" are filled, I wonder if you could fill two stripped down Lunar Starships in LEO, stack them in orbit, and then use one as a booster, and send the other to investigate an asteroid.
I don't know how far short that comes to accessing a asteroid of interest. But if you could get a starship platform on station on or near an asteroid, and by some means get samples into the starship, and have robots like Optimus, run tests on the samples with high quality laboratory equipment.
Then it might be possible to plan for the future a bit better.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-08 08:40:33)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#15 2026-07-08 08:54:07
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
So, if we could discover places where we could have "Cookie Jar" structures built, really, I think the limits are very wide open:
From post #13 again:
It is not mandated that the cookie jar itself will not spin, but I think it general it would be best that it would not.
The factory floor cylinder (Or other shape), may spin, but a hope is that to do materials processing only a minor amount of synthetic gravity is needed. Certain sections of the Factory Cylinder can be pressurized for industrial or human purposes.
The "Hab" could be in the manner of a disk, perhaps think Stanford Torus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_torus
Image Quote: 
Image Quote: 
The Cookie Jar is to offer radiation protection, protections from impactors, and thermal moderation. So, fatigue of rotating devices will likely be well reduced.
As for Suburban Paradise for Plantation owners, I think that artificial lights and Precision Fermentation, Cellular Farming will take care of food needs.
But depending on the economy, I do think it would be possible to create other habitats that grow wood, so then a forest. So, then if people wanted Earth simulations they could go there, but for economy perhaps in those places the gravity might be 1/4 that or Earth, and the Air pressure at minimum for purpose. Things like that.
Productivity matters. You have to make sure that your creations are going to serve your needs rather than to serve methods that do not offer profit.
These "Cookie Jars" being completed, and mass produced some of them might set off to yet another asteroid.
Once makers are set up at Ceres and 10 Hygiea, some of these then can be sent to intercept Mars and Earth Crossing asteroids and to metabolize the materials of them.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-08 09:11:00)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#16 2026-07-08 14:50:32
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
(th) Thanks for your enthusiasm towards the Stanford Torus. It is probably true that it is going to be hard to achieve such a thing but it is a worth goal to seek after, I feel. https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 66#p240166
I am now going to investigate if it would ever be practical to build things out of asphalt in orbit of Mars, on Mars, or in the Asteroid Belt.
If it turns out that the moons of Mars may have Carbon, they also have aggregate.
I admit that in a vacuum or possibly on the surface of Mars, Bitumen or Tar may tend to dry out, through a sublimation process. Colder is better I expect, but the structures built may have a limited lifetime unless some special tricks are discovered.
OK, I am cherry picking to my liking: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3918305646
Quote:
Investigation of the Radiation Shielding Capacity of Asphalt and Sand for Fast Neutron Sources
Abstract
The internal wall of the cavity of experimental assemblies, involved with high energy fusion neutrons, can be covered by an asphalt-sand layer for radiation protection purposes. The calculations have demonstrated that asphalt has a radiation protection capability superior to that of concrete, on equivalent weight basis.
Query: "What is the average temperature for the surface of Phobos?"
Quote:
Like
Dislike
Phobos experiences extreme temperature variations, ranging from about −4°C (25°F) on the sunlit side to −112°C (−170°F) on the shadowed side.
Phobos, the larger and closer of Mars' two moons, has no atmosphere, which contributes to its dramatic temperature fluctuations between day and night
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
+1
. The sunlit side can reach temperatures comparable to a mild winter day on Earth, around −4°C (25°F), while the shadowed side plunges to −112°C (−170°F), colder than the harshest Antarctic nights
NASA
NASA
+1
. These extremes are intensified by the moon's fine regolith, which cannot retain heat, and its lack of atmospheric insulation
NASA
NASA
.
Because Phobos is tidally locked to Mars, the same side always faces the planet, but temperatures still vary significantly depending on whether a region is exposed to sunlight or in shadow
Answers
Answers
. The average surface temperature is estimated to be around 233K (−40°C)
Answers
Answers
. These conditions make the surface environment extremely challenging for potential landers or human exploration, as equipment must withstand both intense cold and rapid thermal changes.
Phobos’ small size and low gravity also mean it cannot retain heat, and its surface is heavily cratered, with features like the Stickney crater influencing local temperature variations
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
+1
. Overall, the moon’s temperature extremes are a direct result of its lack of atmosphere, small size, and proximity to the Sun, making it one of the coldest and most thermally variable bodies in the inner Solar System
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
+1
.
And that is without using a sunshield.
OK, now I imagine a Cookie Jar made primarily with asphalt. I include metal framing, Vapor barrier materials, and a sun-shield device for it.
To get started humble beginnings are likely: 
If methods to create and maintain asphalt structures in space can be discovered, then it is uncertain what parts of the making can come from the moons of Mars, Mars, and from the Earth/Moon.
By putting a sunshield which may also be a solar collector as protection of asphalt structure, perhaps temperatures similar to that of the asteroid belt can be achieved.
Query: "Tar Like substances in Carbonaceous Asteroids?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Tar-Like Substances in Carbonaceous Asteroids
Carbonaceous asteroids — especially C-type asteroids and their meteorite counterparts like CI and CM chondrites — are known for their high carbon content, which includes organic compounds and water-bearing minerals. These materials can appear in forms that resemble tar or sticky organic residues when examined in detail.Organic carbon and hydrocarbons
Carbonaceous asteroids contain complex organic molecules, including hydrocarbons and aromatic compounds, which can form viscous, tar-like substances under certain conditions. These organics are thought to have formed in the early solar system and may have contributed to the carbon inventory of Earth Science Times. In meteorite samples, such organics are often found in fine-grained, carbon-rich matrices that can look dark and sticky under the microscope.Water-bearing minerals
Many carbonaceous asteroids host hydrated silicates (e.g., phyllosilicates) and other minerals that contain bound water. When these minerals are altered by heat or water, they can release water and organic compounds, sometimes leaving behind carbonaceous residues that resemble tar Wikipedia. This is especially common in asteroids that experienced aqueous alteration on their parent bodies.Spectral and compositional evidence
Spectroscopic studies of C-type asteroids show absorption features consistent with both carbonaceous material and water-bearing minerals. The presence of these features supports the idea that their surfaces and interiors contain volatile-rich, organically complex materials Wikipedia. In meteorites, detailed chemical analysis confirms high abundances of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and sulfur — elements that are key to forming organic compounds.Why it matters
These tar-like substances are not just scientific curiosities — they are potential sources of prebiotic chemistry and may have delivered water and organic molecules to early Earth. They also represent a class of materials that could be targeted in future asteroid resource missions, though their low density and fragility make mining challenging ScienceDaily.In summary:
Yes — carbonaceous asteroids contain tar-like organic substances in the form of hydrocarbons, aromatic compounds, and altered carbonaceous minerals. These are part of their volatile-rich, organically complex makeup and are central to their scientific and potential resource value.
Query: "Tar Like substances in Bennu and Ryugu Asteroids?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Tar-Like Substances in Bennu and Ryugu Asteroids
Recent high-resolution infrared (IR) and spectroscopic analyses of samples from the carbonaceous asteroids Bennu (OSIRIS-REx) and Ryugu (Hayabusa2) have revealed a range of complex organic and hydrated phases, including carbonate-rich regions and hydrated ammonium-magnesium-phosphorus (NH₄Mg₂P₂O₇·nH₂O) grains pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+1. These hydrated ammonium compounds are structurally and chemically similar to certain ammonium-based organics that can form in water-rich environments and, in some cases, resemble the molecular complexity found in terrestrial “tar-like” or keratinized organic matter.What “Tar-Like” Means in This Context
In planetary science, “tar-like” substances often refer to complex, carbon-rich, hydrogen-rich organic compounds that are insoluble in water, often containing nitrogen, oxygen, and sometimes sulfur. They can form through aqueous alteration of simpler organics in the presence of water and ammonia, and are common in carbonaceous chondrites and other primitive solar system materials.Evidence in Bennu and Ryugu
Hydrated ammonium-magnesium-phosphorus grains: Detected in both Bennu and Ryugu samples, these are rare in meteorites and suggest localized aqueous environments rich in ammonia and phosphorus pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+1. Such compounds can be precursors to more complex nitrogen-containing organics.Carbonate inclusions: Found in both asteroids, these indicate past interactions with water and CO₂, which can drive organic synthesis pathways Astrobiology.
Phyllosilicate-rich matrix: Both asteroids are dominated by hydrated silicates, which can host and protect organic molecules from degradation pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.
Organic matter: Bennu samples contain interstellar organic matter and pre-solar stardust, some of which may have undergone aqueous alteration to form more complex, “tar-like” organics Science Mission Directorate.
Implications
The presence of these hydrated ammonium and carbonate phases, along with the organic-rich matrix, suggests that aqueous alteration processes on the parent bodies of Bennu and Ryugu could have produced complex nitrogen- and phosphorus-bearing organics—molecular analogs to terrestrial tar-like compounds. These materials may have been delivered to early Earth and contributed to the chemical inventory that eventually led to life.In summary: While no exact “tar” has been directly imaged, the hydrated ammonium-magnesium-phosphorus grains and other complex organics in Bennu and Ryugu samples are strong indicators of the types of aqueous-altered, nitrogen-rich organic matter that could be considered “tar-like” in a planetary chemistry sense pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+2.
Read less
I will take that as a sort or, almost, maybe.
Bitumen and Tar are not the same, but I will chase Bitumen around now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitumen
Quote:
Bitumen (UK: /ˈbɪtʃʊmɪn/ BIH-chuum-in, US: /bɪˈtjuːmɪn, baɪ-/ ⓘ bih-TEW-min, by-)[1] is an immensely viscous constituent of petroleum. Depending on its exact composition, it can be a sticky, black liquid or an apparently solid mass that behaves as a liquid over very large time scales. In American English, the material is commonly referred to as asphalt. Whether found in natural deposits or refined from petroleum, the substance is classed as a pitch.[2] Prior to the 20th century, the term asphaltum was in general use.[3] The word derives from the Ancient Greek word ἄσφαλτος (ásphaltos), which referred to natural bitumen or pitch. The largest natural deposit of bitumen in the world is the Pitch Lake of southwest Trinidad, which is estimated to contain 10 million tons.[4]
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Bitumen is a complex petroleum-derived mixture of hydrocarbons, primarily composed of asphaltenes, resins, aromatics, and saturates, with carbon and hydrogen as dominant elements.
Chemical Composition
Bitumen is primarily made up of hydrocarbons, with elemental composition typically around 80–85% carbon, 8–11% hydrogen, and smaller amounts of sulfur, nitrogen, and oxygen. Trace metals such as nickel and vanadium may also be present in natural bitumen
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
+2
. Its molecular structure is highly complex, containing thousands of different molecules, which makes complete separation and identification nearly impossible
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
.SARA Fractionation
Bitumen’s molecules are commonly classified into four chemical families, known as SARA fractions:Saturates: Waxy, non-polar hydrocarbons that contribute to hardness and temperature sensitivity
goldbitumen.com
goldbitumen.com
+1
.
Aromatics: Ring-shaped hydrocarbons that provide fluidity and workability, balancing the stiffness of asphaltenes
goldbitumen.com
goldbitumen.com
+1
.
Resins: Semi-solid, adhesive molecules that enhance ductility, flexibility, and bonding with aggregates
goldbitumen.com
goldbitumen.com
+1
.
Asphaltenes: High-molecular-weight, solid-like molecules responsible for bitumen’s dark color, viscosity, and structural stability
goldbitumen.com
goldbitumen.com
+1
.
These fractions interact to form a colloidal system, with asphaltenes dispersed in a maltene (resins, aromatics, and saturates) continuous phase, which explains bitumen’s viscoelastic behavior
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
+1
.
Molecular Structure and Properties
Bitumen behaves as a viscoelastic material, meaning it exhibits both solid-like and liquid-like properties depending on temperature and time scale. Its adhesive and waterproofing properties arise from the balance between rigid asphaltenes and fluid maltenes
Vedantu
Vedantu
+1
. Functional groups containing nitrogen, sulfur, and oxygen influence viscosity, oxidation resistance, and adhesion to aggregates
Vedantu
Vedantu
. Over time, oxidation can make bitumen brittle, affecting its performance in pavements
Vedantu
Vedantu
.Natural vs. Refined Bitumen
Natural bitumen occurs in deposits such as oil sands or ancient lake beds and may contain minerals like limestone in addition to hydrocarbons
Vedantu
Vedantu
.
Refined bitumen is obtained from crude oil distillation, removing lighter fractions like gasoline and diesel, and may undergo further refining to improve grade and performance
Vedantu
Vedantu
+1
.
Applications and Chemical Relevance
The chemical composition of bitumen directly affects its performance in road construction, roofing, and industrial applications. The proportion of asphaltenes, resins, aromatics, and saturates determines viscosity, temperature susceptibility, and durability. Understanding its chemistry is essential for modifying bitumen with polymers or additives to enhance properties such as rutting resistance, water damage resistance, and longevity
goldbitumen.com
goldbitumen.com
+1
.
Query: "Durability of polyethylene in a vacuum?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Durability of Polyethylene in a Vacuum
Polyethylene (PE) is generally highly durable in vacuum environments because its non-polar, saturated carbon–carbon backbone is chemically inert and does not react with most gases, including oxygen and nitrogen sciencewatch.blog. In a vacuum, the absence of oxygen and moisture significantly reduces the risk of oxidation, hydrolysis, and environmental stress cracking (ESC), which are the main degradation pathways for PE in air sciencewatch.blog.Why PE Performs Well in Vacuum
Chemical inertness: PE resists most acids, bases, salts, and solvents, and in a vacuum, it is not exposed to reactive gases that could cause chain scission scienceinsights.org+1.No moisture absorption: PE’s hydrophobic nature means it does not swell or degrade from water ingress, a concern in humid or atmospheric conditions sciencewatch.blog.
Thermal stability: HDPE, in particular, maintains its mechanical properties at elevated temperatures without rapid degradation in vacuum scienceinsights.org.
Impact and abrasion resistance: PE types like HDPE and UHMWPE can withstand significant mechanical stress without fracturing scienceinsights.org.
Potential Limitations
While PE is stable in vacuum, its long-term durability still depends on:Material type: HDPE is more rigid and thermally stable than LDPE; UHMWPE offers superior wear resistance but is less crystalline, so oxygen can penetrate more easily if exposed to air scienceinsights.org.
Temperature: At very high temperatures, even in vacuum, PE can soften or degrade if thermal stress is applied.
Surface effects: In space-like vacuum, UV radiation from sunlight (if present) can cause photo-oxidation, but in a true vacuum without UV, this is not a concern sciencewatch.blog.
Practical Applications
PE is widely used in vacuum forming and vacuum-sealed products because it:Maintains shape and integrity under vacuum pressure dtplx.com+1.
Resists chemical attack in sealed environments.
Is recyclable and environmentally stable over long service lives dtplx.com.
In summary: In a vacuum, polyethylene’s chemical inertness, moisture resistance, and mechanical strength make it extremely durable, with minimal degradation risk. Its performance is best when combined with proper material selection (e.g., HDPE for structural parts) and temperature control.
OK, and I think that plastics that have Chlorine or Fluorine in them do even better. I have read that Carbonaceous asteroids may have salts of these substances in them.
Probably plastic bags have to come from Earth though at the startup around Mars.
If stony material with asphalt nuggets could be put into a plastic bag, and be heated, then I think the object could be formed and cooled. A multiple of these could be joined by some means to form "Cookie Jar" walls.
We are hoping that Phobos and Deimos have significant amounts of Carbo in them, although not everyone agrees that it is there. Mars itself does have very significant Carbon.
Some people think that there could be water ice inside of Phobos, but if so it will likely be very hard to access.
So, perhaps a best practice would be to bring Methane up from Mars and include its Hydrogen and Carbon into a bitumen-like substance, ideally most of the Carbon would come from Phobos and Deimos.
Query: "How much of Asphalt is Bitumen?"
Quote:
Like
Dislike
Asphalt typically contains about 5% to 10% bitumen, which serves as the binding agent that holds the aggregate together and provides durability and flexibility to the pavement.
Composition of Asphalt
Aggregate: Asphalt is primarily composed of aggregates, which make up about 90% to 95% of the mixture. This includes materials like gravel, sand, and crushed stone.
Bitumen: The remaining 5% to 10% is bitumen, a viscous black substance derived from petroleum distillation. Bitumen acts as a binder, providing essential properties such as waterproofing and flexibility to the asphalt
petronaftco.com
petronaftco.com
+1
.
Importance of Bitumen Content
The percentage of bitumen in asphalt is crucial for several reasons:Durability: Proper bitumen content enhances the longevity of the pavement, reducing the need for repairs and maintenance.
Flexibility: Bitumen allows the asphalt to remain pliable under varying temperatures, preventing cracking and deformation.
Performance: The right balance of bitumen ensures that the asphalt can withstand different traffic loads and environmental conditions
petronaftco.com
petronaftco.com
+1
.
Factors Influencing Bitumen Percentage
Several factors can influence the optimal bitumen content in asphalt mixtures, including:Traffic Load: Heavier traffic areas may require a higher bitumen content for increased durability.
Climate Conditions: In warmer climates, more bitumen may be used to prevent softening, while colder regions may require higher content to avoid cracking.
Project Specifications: Different types of roads (e.g., highways vs. residential streets) may have varying requirements for bitumen content to achieve desired performance characteristics
petronaftco.com
petronaftco.com
+1
.
In summary, the typical bitumen content in asphalt ranges from 5% to 10%, and optimizing this percentage is essential for creating durable and effective road surfaces.
Copilot said: "Bitumen is primarily made up of hydrocarbons, with elemental composition typically around 80–85% carbon, 8–11% hydrogen, and smaller amounts of sulfur, nitrogen, and oxygen. Trace metals such as nickel and vanadium may also be present in natural bitumen"
The bitumen is a small part of asphalt, the balance being aggregate, and Hydrogen is a small part of bitumen.
So, ideally Carbon and Aggregate will come from the moons of Mars, and only Hydrogen will come from Mars.
But in the beginning, I expect that Earh/Moon will have to supply the vapor barrier method.
If this can be developed for orbits of Mars, it will likely come in handy with suitable asteroid materials.
As for Mars it might have Tar.
Query: "Oil Spil on Mars, salt dome?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Oil Spill Feature on Mars and the Hebes Mensa Salt Dome
On Mars, the “Oil Spill” is a dark, flowing feature located at the eastern collapsed side of the Hebes Mensa salt dome in Hebes Chasma oilonmars.blogspot.com. The Hebes Mensa is a large, dome-shaped structure formed by diapirism — the upward movement of salt through overlying rock layers due to its lower density Wikipedia+1. This process can create domes that trap and sometimes release fluids, including hydrocarbons.The “Oil Spill” Feature
The official interpretation from Adams et al. (2009) suggests the dark fluid is liquid brines tinted black by dust particles martinhovland.weebly.com. However, some researchers, such as Martin Hovland, argue that the physical characteristics — including the way the fluid flows and pools — are more consistent with crude oil seeping from the collapsed salt dome oilonmars.blogspot.com. On Earth, similar seeps occur in natural oil fields, such as the McKittrick oil field in California, where crude oil and bitumen emerge from the ground oilonmars.blogspot.com.Why Salt Domes Are Relevant
Salt domes are important in petroleum geology because they can act as traps for oil and gas. As salt rises through sediment layers, it can create cavities and faults that collect hydrocarbons diversedaily.com+1. On Mars, the Hebes Mensa salt dome may have similarly trapped and released fluids, possibly including hydrocarbons, through collapse and venting.Earth Analogues
Natural oil seeps on Earth, especially near salt domes, often show:Braided or braided-branch flow patterns in brines or oil oilonmars.blogspot.com.
Pools that may solidify or corrode over time.
Vents where fluid emerges and spreads.
These features are used to interpret Martian seep-like formations, even though the Martian environment is vastly different.
In summary: The “Oil Spill” on Mars is linked to the Hebes Mensa salt dome, a geological structure that may have released hydrocarbons. While some scientists see it as brine-dust, others believe it is crude oil, drawing parallels to natural seeps on Earth where salt domes are known to host oil and gas martinhovland.weebly.com+3.
Brine or Oil, should we not look for evidence of life in it?
https://martinhovland.weebly.com/mars.html
https://oilonmars.blogspot.com/
Image Quote: 
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-08 16:05:57)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#17 2026-07-09 07:42:56
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
I think here so that readers will understand that my intentions with Mars/Phobo/Deimos are a pathway to vast amounts of water and other resources that are easiest found in the asteroids belts, the best way to think of why my various posts are tied to together, is that these worlds can be considered raw materials, and intentions are to refine them into useful materials.
An example of this would be to land Starship onto Mars and cook up propellants for it from CO2 and water. The moons of Mars may have chemistry that is similar to some types of asteroids. So, from a certain point of view, they are like having a petroleum reserve to tap on Earth.
Among greater concerns with these raw materials are to construct structures and propellants.
I feel that China has come up with something of great interest: Utube, China's New Ammonia Powered Engine Has Big Oil In Panic, 1h ago
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:
China's New Ammonia Powered Engine Has Big Oil In Panic
Such a motor might be of interest on Mars, but I am thinking that in propulsion, it could make a more attractive set of engine methods of rockets, various kinds. The Ammonia is slow burning it seems and if you split a little of the Ammonia into Nitrogen and Hydrogen, then put mix a pinch of Hydrogen into the Ammonia, the fast-burning Ammonia, serves to speed up the ignition of the Ammonia, and apparently to produce greater engine efficiency.
That could relate to a combustion process. But I think that spiking a propellant that has a poor expansion, with a propellant that has a greater expansion rate, may be useful in a situation where you have a bulk of poor expanding propellant and only smaller amounts of greater expanding propellants. This could matter for Nuclear-Thermal, Nuclear-Electric-Thermal, and Solar-Thermal propulsion systems.
Query: "Nuclear rocket using liquid Carbon Monoxide and Methane as propellants?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Nuclear Rocket Using Liquid CO and Methane Propellants
A nuclear rocket using liquid carbon monoxide (CO) and methane (CH₄) is a concept that blends nuclear thermal propulsion (NTP) with methane–carbon monoxide–liquid oxygen (McLOx) fuel cycles. This approach is being explored for Mars ascent vehicles and other in‑situ propellant production (ISPP) applications.Why CO + Methane?
Methane/CO mixtures are produced by Mars ISPP systems (e.g., Sabatier reaction byproducts) and can be used directly without costly separation Archive.CO increases propellant density compared to pure methane, improving stage performance despite a slight drop in specific impulse (Isp) Archive.
Both CO and CH₄ are cryogenic, storable, and compatible with LOX, making them suitable for nuclear thermal engines.
Nuclear Thermal Propulsion (NTP) Basics
In NTP, a nuclear reactor heats a propellant (like liquid hydrogen or liquid methane) to very high temperatures before it expands through a nozzle.This method can achieve Isp values above 900 s in vacuum, far exceeding chemical rockets (~300–450 s) newspaceeconomy.ca.
For McLOx, the reactor heats the CO/CH₄/LOX mixture, which is then expanded for thrust.
McLOx Advantages
Higher propellant density than pure methane or LOX, reducing tank volume and mass Archive.Simpler ISPP — no need to purify methane from CO mixtures Archive.
Common storage temperature for CO, CH₄, and LOX allows lightweight, compact tanks Archive.
Potential for reprocessing organic waste from lunar or ISS operations Archive.
Performance Considerations
Isp: McLOx NTP could exceed 370 s in vacuum, with density benefits improving stage performance Archive.Thrust: Depends on reactor power and propellant flow rate; NTP systems can deliver high, sustained thrust.
Efficiency: Higher Isp means less propellant mass for a given mission, but reactor mass and shielding add complexity.
Applications
Mars ascent vehicles using ISPP‑produced CO/CH₄ mixtures.Lunar surface operations with waste‑derived propellants.
Future ISPP‑enabled missions where propellant production is done in‑situ.
Challenges
Reactor integration with cryogenic CO/CH₄/LOX handling.Material compatibility at high temperatures.
Radiation shielding and safety for crewed missions.
Testing infrastructure for nuclear‑powered liquid propellant engines.
In summary: A nuclear rocket using liquid CO and methane is a promising hybrid concept that leverages in‑situ propellant production, high propellant density, and nuclear thermal efficiency for deep‑space and planetary surface missions Archive.
So, that looks like a conditional yes.
So, you might "Spike" a poor propellant with small quantities of a better propellant to to get good results. The CO is dense and the Methane is perhaps more expandable with temperature.
Other options I am interested in are water and Hydrogen or Methane. Can you inject a highly expansive substance into a substance like water and push it out of a thermal or plasma system?
My logic here is that if you have a Nuclear device that got you to Mars, then you don't have to cook up that much Methane for it. (Hydrogen is probably impractical).
Bulk Materials like CO2 and H20 can be lifted. If you have a chemical with Hydrogen in it that will be the easiest to pull Hydrogen out of you could spike water-thermal, CO-thermal, and maybe even CO2-thermal and put it though thermal or plasma thrusters.
You then only have to cook up enough LOX and CH4 to bring water and/or CO2 to orbit.
And then if you can involve the materials of the moons of Mars, you may be able to reduce the total amount you must lift from Mars.
We think that there may be Carbon available. Some people even think Hydrogen in the form of water ice or Hydrated Minerals may be available. We know that Oxygen and Iron are available. At a minimum that is a lot.
If you could get Oxygen and Iron from these materials, then all you would have to lift to orbit would be Methane, and you could produce Water, CO, and CO2. You also could lift some Ammonia to orbit if that is a good way to get Hydrogen to spike a thermal or plasma thrust method.
I mentioned Iron, not the best, but it could work in a Neumann Drive or a Magdrive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now I have ideas about Iron encapsulation of materials from Phobos and Deimos.
The materials of Phobos and Demos may be from several sources, and so, if you sort them by size, you might find variable chemestries.
So, if you sort by size you might have
1) Dust and small gravel.
2) Small rocks that you could incorporate into asphalt structures if you have a bitumen or Tar-Like substance.
3) Cobbles.
4) Things too big to use.
So, I have already entertained a method to encapsulate Cobbles into "Chicken Wire" Enclosures. If you have Iron and Carbon and maybe a few other ingredients you might do this.
And at the beginning this might be a thing to risk. The risk is if the stones get out of their encapsulation, and created a set of collision hazards. So, at first this might be worth risking. But later better practices may be wanted.
This is of course to create "Cookie Jars" as the outer defense of machinery protected internally by the "Cookie Jars".
This site has many good ideas: https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism
1) Heating a substance can release Volatiles, including some Oxygen.
2) Iron will sublimate and condense at lower temperatures in a Vacuum.
Where Iron and Steel are at risk of rusting on Mars, in the orbit of Mars, this concern might be very low.
Could a Iron or Steel foil be manufactured? If so, then one path would be to wrap each cobble in Iron or Steel foil, and to press them together in a vacuum, to vacuum weld them to each other.
Query: "Iron Foil or Steel Foil?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Iron Foil vs Steel Foil
Iron foil and steel foil are both ultra-thin metal foils, but they differ in composition, properties, and typical applications.Composition and Purity
Iron foil: Made from high-purity iron (99.5%–99.99% Fe) Goodfellow. It is a pure elemental metal, not an alloy, which gives it excellent magnetic properties.Steel foil: Made from an alloy of iron and carbon (and sometimes other elements like chromium, nickel, etc.) www.astmsteel.com. Steel’s alloying improves strength, hardness, and corrosion resistance compared to pure iron.
Thickness and Form
Both can be made in very thin gauges (down to ~0.0005 mm for iron foil Goodfellow), but steel foil can be produced in a wider range of alloys and thicknesses, including ultra-thin precision foils for electronics Hamilton Precision Metals.Iron foil is often supplied in light-tight, pinhole-free forms for sensitive applications Goodfellow.
Key Properties
Iron foil:High magnetic permeability and low coercivity — ideal for magnetic shielding and electromagnetic devices Goodfellow.
High ductility and formability for thin fabrication.
Moderate electrical and thermal conductivity.
Used in transformers, inductors, magnetic yokes, particle accelerators, and as a substrate for material growth Goodfellow.
Steel foil:
Combines iron’s base properties with alloy-enhanced strength, hardness, and corrosion resistance.
Can be tailored for specific applications like strain gauges, precision resistors, medical devices, and aerospace components Hamilton Precision Metals.
Thicker steel foils may be used for structural or shielding roles, but ultra-thin steel foils are common in electronics and sensors.
Applications
Iron foil: Magnetic shielding, electromagnetic devices, scientific instrumentation, energy systems, and as a substrate for advanced materials Goodfellow.Steel foil: Electronics (strain gauges, resistors), medical devices, aerospace, automotive sensors, and decorative or protective foils Hamilton Precision Metals+1.
Choosing Between Them
Choose iron foil if your application requires maximum magnetic performance and you can tolerate its lower strength and corrosion resistance.Choose steel foil if you need strength, durability, and corrosion resistance in a thin form, or if you require alloy-specific properties (e.g., stainless steel for corrosion resistance).
In short, iron foil is the pure, magnetic specialist, while steel foil is the versatile, alloy-enhanced option for a broader range of engineering and industrial uses.
So, I would be my preference that the foils will be as greatly magnetized as is possible. This may cause some trouble for some scientific equipment, but maybe that can be kept separated.
So, raising the temperature of the foil above the curie point of Iron and then allowing cooling in an induced magnetic field may do the trick. But if the temperatures are too high for too long, the Iron may sublimate into the vacuum of space.
An AC Magnetic process may induce heat into the foils, and then a DC field may be applied as the cooling process is allowed. I presume that vacuum welding will occur.
A wrapping of chicken wire will probably be desirable anyway. If iron flakes off or stones drift away, there are pretty good chances that they will flock to the most magnetic field that is present. Such a magnetic field might even have protective properties as per some kinds of radiation hazards. The cobbles will be protective.
An parallel or alternate way to do this might be to electroplate Iron onto a collection of cobbles that are held together with Chicken Wire.
A "Cookie Jar" made of Iron Glued Cobbles (Encapsulated), may shed heat in a manner different than something that does not have the similar porosity.
So, then tricks and tactics developed, at Deimos/Phobos/Mars, may serve well in the asteroid belt and beyond.
Ending Pending
From post #16, substitute Asphalt for Iron glued Cobbles:
o get started humble beginnings are likely:
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-09 08:51:57)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#18 2026-07-09 15:45:16
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
Reviewing radiation protection again: ".How Much regolith is needed for radiation protection on the Moon?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Regolith Requirements for Lunar Radiation Protection
For long‑term lunar habitation, lunar regolith is the most practical radiation shield because it’s abundant in place and avoids the high cost of launching shielding from Earth ResearchGate. The amount needed depends on the target radiation dose, regolith density, and the type of radiation (Galactic Cosmic Rays vs. Solar Particle Events).Typical thicknesses and doses
Galactic Cosmic Rays (GCRs): At least 2m of regolith is needed to reduce exposure to about 150mSv per 180‑day mission. Increasing to 3m reduces this to roughly 100mSv ResearchGate.
Solar Particle Events (SEPs): Regolith is highly effective at stopping SEPs; even 1–2m can significantly reduce dose, with effectiveness increasing with depth ResearchGate.
Optimal depth: NASA simulations show a peak in secondary radiation between 1.0–1.5m, so 2–3m is often used to balance GCR and secondary radiation effects ResearchGate.
Mass estimates
Loose surface regolith has a density of about 1.5–1.8g/cm³ agentcalc.com.
For a 2m layer over 1m²:
Volume = 2m × 1m² = 2m³
Mass ≈ 2m³ × 1.6g/cm³ × 10⁶ cm³/m³ = 3.2tonnes per square meter.
For a 3m layer: ≈ 4.8tonnes/m².
These figures scale with habitat area — a 100m² habitat with 2m regolith shielding would require ~320tonnes of regolith.Engineering considerations
Compression: Compressing regolith increases density and reduces required thickness, improving both radiation and thermal insulation MDPI.
Mixed materials: Combining regolith with polyethylene or aluminum can improve GCR shielding efficiency ResearchGate.
Secondary radiation: Deeper layers reduce GCR dose but can increase secondary particle production; 2–3m is a common compromise ResearchGate.
Construction logistics: Excavating and placing regolith over large areas requires significant robotic excavation, power, and time agentcalc.com.
Summary table
Regolith thickness Approx. GCR dose (180d) Mass per m² (loose)
Notes1.0m ~200–250mSv 1.6tonnes
Good for SEPs, less for GCRs2.0m ~150mSv 3.2tonnes
Common target for GCR/SEP3.0m ~100mSv 4.8tonnes
Best for GCR, more massBottom line: For a safe long‑term lunar base, 2–3m of regolith is a practical shielding depth, requiring ~3–5 tonnes per square meter of loose material. Compression can reduce this mass, but excavation and placement remain major engineering challenges ResearchGate+1.
Query: ".How much water is needed for radiation protection on the Moon?"
Quote: Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Water Requirements for Radiation Protection on the Moon
On the Moon, there is no atmosphere or magnetic field to shield against space radiation, so lunar regolith (soil) is the primary shielding material. Water can be incorporated into regolith to improve its radiation shielding effectiveness.1. Water’s role in shielding
Water is effective at absorbing ionizing radiation, especially secondary neutrons produced when high-energy particles strike regolith. Adding water to regolith can increase its shielding efficiency. NASA and other studies found that adding about 2wt% water to regolith particles can improve shielding by roughly 6% NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)+1. This is because water has a high hydrogen content, which is excellent for slowing down and absorbing neutrons.2. How much water is needed
The exact amount depends on the target radiation dose reduction and the baseline shielding. For example:A two‑meter regolith layer is sufficient for background radiation, but more is needed for major solar particle events lunarpedia.org.
If you want to enhance regolith shielding, 2wt% water (about 20g of water per kilogram of regolith) is a practical starting point for modest improvements NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)+1.
For larger dose reductions, higher water content or thicker regolith layers may be required, but water content is limited by the natural water content of the regolith (LCROSS found up to ~5.6wt% in some areas) NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).
3. Practical considerations
In-situ water: If water is already present in the regolith (e.g., in permanently shadowed polar craters), it can be used directly.
Ex-situ water: If not available, water must be brought from Earth or produced via in-situ resource utilization (e.g., electrolysis of water ice).
Structural integration: Water can be mixed into regolith during construction or stored in water-rich regolith layers within habitat walls.
4. Summary
For modest radiation shielding improvements, adding ~2wt% water to regolith can boost protection by ~6% NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)+1. For full protection, a 2m regolith layer is the baseline, with water content optimized to enhance neutron shielding. The total water mass needed depends on the habitat size and desired dose reduction, but even small percentages can make a significant difference in long-term lunar habitation safety.
So, I was aiming for pure water, but I guess a mix is interesting.
I have wanted to simplify a survival method to less than a Stanford Torus. So, I have this: 
So, in this diagram you might have 6 Special Starship shells joined together.
Water is the starting radiation protection and as you might build a "Cookie Jar" around it you might remove the water and use more of the space.
I have suggested:
-Asphalt
-Iron/Steel Encapsulated Stones.
-Sintered Blocks linked by Iron or Steel Fixtures.
-Encapsulated Regolith joined by fixtures of some kind.
These then to make the "Cookie Jars", perhaps.
Yes, it would be wonderful to have a Starford Torus, but you have to start with more basic methods long before you could build up to do a Starford Torus.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-09 16:21:13)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#19 2026-07-10 09:20:39
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
So, from my point of view we want all three options for Mars: 
I have done a lot with ice covered reservoirs in the past, so I will expand on that corner of the triangle now.
https://www.space.com/mars-water-ice-eq … ozen-ocean
Image Quote: 
On the horizontal "Distance" measurement, there are two depressions that are interesting. One at about 550 km and the other at about 950 km.
950 might be a little more promising. In places it looks like the regolith thickness may only be about 100 meters thick.
This is actually ideal. The regolith layer may serve as a moderator and with care it might be possible to do a gradual melting, resulting in water percolating up through the regolith.
So, if the melting can be kept as long as several centuries, a way of life could be established and maintained, until it became possible to bring water down from the polar ice caps, (Probably the South Pole).
Perhaps two lakes established, A material needed for the surfaces to reduce sublimation.
Two means of melting would be heat injected, and/or salt brine injected.
A method to inject heat would be to heat brine and push it down a well, to then melt/dissolve ice deposits. The layer of regolith will hold the ice deposits down but not prevent water seepage upwards through the regolith.
Water exposed will sublimate and freeze as well. Then as the ice layer expands put down some poly sheets to be vapor barriers and put something like Vermiculite on top of it. Pumice might do well.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/p … ting-rocks
Quote:
Scientists Have Figured Out How Floating Islands Work
Spongy rocks don’t exactly act like sponges.
by Kelsey Kennedy
May 26, 2017
Quote:
Pumice rafts
There are islands in the ocean that don’t show up on any map and that no one will also ever set foot on. Known as pumice rafts, these “islands” are made of volcanic rocks, and instead of being anchored to the seafloor they float wherever the currents take them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OOYzYG_Nz0
Quote:
The Rock That Floats – Inside Pumice Formation
A question is, can microwave energy from space be beamed into such a covered water pocket? If it does not directly melt ice, and it can pass though poly-film and pumice, I would guess the answer is yes.
But you also could have nuclear power plants in the water under the covered ice.
It is one of those strange things that people could speculate on putting reactors and lighting into the ocean of Europa, but they get stuck on the idea of doing it on Mars.
Granted windows can be nice, but nuclear is much more reliable.
The expectation might be that the volume of ice would evaporate over time. I hope it could be prolonged to a few centuries. It is the volume of the Red Sea, I believe.
Some evaporated water will go into the atmosphere and be split into H2 and O2, with the O2 more accumulating and the H2 going into space. But most of the evaporation will end up at the poles.
So, I feel that a lot of agriculture could occur in these waters with artificial light and chemicals.
The Polar Caps can be made into robot cities where massive manufacturing could occur.
Orbital Mars would be where propellants are provided both for returns to Earth and to move outward into the asteroid belts.
Generally, the idea is water provides pressurization, thermal moderation, and radiation protection. It is hoped that it could support some sort of agriculture based on artificial lights, or fiber optic light, or chemicals, or combinations of things.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-10 10:10:08)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#20 2026-07-10 18:37:56
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
Quote:
So, from my point of view we want all three options for Mars:
So a great hope is that a Moon mass driver system will support the building of data centers in space. If they do, then it would be a small project to divert a portion of the mass launchable by the Mass Drivers to send things to Mars orbits.
For instance, robots with nuclear fission electric drive, might use metal propellants to move loads to Mars. The Lunar metals would make propellants. I know of 3 types at this time.
1) Heuman Drive.
2) Magdrive
3) NASA's Lithium propellant system. https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasa-fire … s-to-mars/
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
NASA’s Lithium Plasma Drive — A Breakthrough for Mars Missions
NASA has successfully tested a lithium-fed magnetoplasmadynamic (MPD) thruster at its Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) that could revolutionize deep-space travel, especially for crewed missions to Mars NASA+1.What It Is
The lithium plasma drive is an electric propulsion system that uses lithium metal vapor as fuel. Inside the thruster, intense electric currents interact with magnetic fields to electromagnetically accelerate the lithium plasma to high speeds, producing thrust NASA+1. This is different from traditional chemical rockets, which deliver high thrust in short bursts, and from most current electric thrusters, which use solar power to ionize propellants like xenon.Record-Breaking Test
On February 24, 2026, engineers ignited the prototype at 120 kilowatts of power — the highest level ever achieved by an electric propulsion system in the United States NASA+1. This is about 25 times more powerful than NASA’s current most advanced thrusters, such as those on the Psyche spacecraft Phys.org. The test ran for five ignition cycles, with the central tungsten electrode glowing white-hot at over 5,000°F (2,800°C) NASA+1.Why It Matters
Efficiency: Electric propulsion uses up to 90% less propellant than chemical rockets NASA+1.Speed & Range: Continuous, low-thrust operation over long periods can accelerate spacecraft to much higher speeds, reducing travel time to Mars and enabling missions farther into the solar system NASA+1.
Mars Readiness: NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman linked the test to progress toward sending an American astronaut to Mars NASA+1.
Long-Term Potential: The technology, researched since the 1960s, could also power robotic missions across the solar system The Daily Galaxy.
Next Steps
The data from this test will guide further development, including scaling up power levels, improving stability, and integrating the thruster into a nuclear electric propulsion system for even greater performance NASA+1. If successful, such drives could make Mars missions faster, cheaper, and more sustainable.In short: NASA’s lithium plasma drive is a high-power, metal-vapor electric thruster that could dramatically shorten travel times to Mars and open new possibilities for deep-space exploration.
Sadly, it does not appear that the Moon will be an easy place to get Lithium from. But the Moon may be able to supply some reactor parts, and some spacecraft parts.
Neumann Drive can use most substances on the periodic table, so perhaps NASA may be able to make a version that uses something other than Lithium.
But I feel that the beauty of this is that a Nuclear-Electric Reactor with thrust methods could move itself from Earth orbit to Mars orbits using Ballistic Capture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_capture
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1410.8856 (Earth>Mars)
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Ballistic Capture in Spaceflight
Ballistic capture is a low-energy orbital transfer technique in astrodynamics that allows a spacecraft to be temporarily captured into orbit around a distant planet or moon without using propellant for the insertion burn Wikipedia+1. It relies entirely on gravitational perturbations from the departure body, target body, and a third body (often the Sun) to transition the spacecraft from a hyperbolic trajectory to an elliptical orbit grokipedia.com.How It Works
The spacecraft is placed on a trajectory ahead of the target’s orbital path in a region called the weak stability boundary (WSB) Wikipedia.This WSB is a complex, fractal-like region in the planar elliptic restricted three-body problem, where the gravitational influences of the departure and target bodies balance with the third body’s gravity grokipedia.com.
The spacecraft “falls” into the target’s gravity well, becoming captured, and may require only minor low-power corrections (e.g., ion thrusters) to stabilize Wikipedia.
Key Advantages
Propellant savings: Can reduce capture Δv by 18–25% compared to a Hohmann transfer grokipedia.com.No time-critical burn: Launch windows are not limited to narrow alignment periods, allowing almost any launch time Wikipedia+1.
Safer: Avoids high-speed, high-risk insertion burns.
Higher payload capacity: Less fuel means more mass for instruments or cargo grokipedia.com.
Limitations
Longer transfer times: Can take months to years instead of months for Hohmann transfers Wikipedia+1.Precise targeting: Requires accurate injection into the WSB using stable manifolds in phase space grokipedia.com.
Temporary capture: The orbit is often unstable and may require further maneuvers to become permanent arXiv.org.
Historical Examples
Hiten (Japan, 1991): First demonstration of ballistic capture to the Moon, using an exterior ballistic capture transfer beyond the Earth–Moon distance Wikipedia+1.SMART-1 (ESA, 2004): Used an interior ballistic capture transfer within the Earth–Moon distance Wikipedia.
GRAIL (NASA, 2011): Applied the same lunar capture method arXiv.org.
Earth–Mars proposals: 2014 studies suggested ballistic capture could reduce Mars capture Δv and extend launch windows arXiv.org.
Applications
Ballistic capture is being considered for:Lunar and planetary orbital insertions
Sample return missions
Missions to asteroids and outer planets
Hybrid trajectories with low-thrust propulsion to further reduce energy grokipedia.com.
In short, ballistic capture is a powerful, flexible, and fuel-efficient method for reaching and orbiting distant celestial bodies, though it demands careful planning and longer mission durations.
So, the reactors could enter Mars orbits without heat shields or landing and perhaps serve as tugs but would not return to Earth.
Ideally, they could be involved in extracting materials from the moons of Mars, some of that for propellants.
These substances can easily be metals, silicon, perhaps Carbon, and Oxygen.
If we might think that a tanker could bring Methane to orbit then that or it's Hydrogen could be reacted with the materials of Phobos, either by pyrolysis or biomining. This would produce water, and that could be split and the Hydrogen used again to extract more Oxygen, and to reduce the Iron in the materials.
I might wonder how well an Alice propulsion might work in orbits of Mars? Nano-Aluminum and Water Ice.
If there is Carbon in the materials of the moons, then we could think to have a CO and O2 rocket method. That might be improved if a pinch of Methane could be added to it. Presumably the Methane from Mars.
The use of a paste of LOX and Nano-Aluminum has ben considered for the Moon. Perhaps it could have value here as well.
So, you see the situation. Someone put two small propellant tanks in orbit of Mars. Tapping them would greatly reduce the drain on resources on the surface of Mars, to return ships to Earth/Moon and to expand into the Asteroid Belts.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-10 19:05:26)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#21 2026-07-10 19:26:58
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
Continuing with the previous post:
Query: "Is there Carbon in Phobos and Deimos?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Yes — both Phobos and Deimos contain carbon, but it’s not in the form of free elemental carbon; instead, the carbon is part of carbon-rich surface materials that give them their dark, low-albedo appearance.Reflectance spectroscopy of both moons shows abundant carbon, which is consistent with a composition similar to carbonaceous chondrites — a type of meteorite rich in organic compounds and carbon-bearing minerals NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS). This carbon content is not typical of Martian surface materials, suggesting that the moons’ bulk composition is different from Mars itself.
Two main origin scenarios are debated:
Mars-impact origin: The moons may have formed from debris after a giant impact on Mars, with carbon-rich material added later by interplanetary dust particles (IDPs). These IDPs are rich in carbon and are delivered in much higher flux to Mars and its moons than to Earth, so Phobos and Deimos have accumulated significant carbon-rich surface layers over time NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).
Captured asteroids: They could be small asteroids from the outer solar system that were captured by Mars’s gravity, bringing their carbon-rich compositions with them.
In either case, the surface of both moons is coated with carbon-rich regolith from IDP infall, which explains their dark color and spectral signature. The carbon is chemically bound in minerals and organic compounds, not as pure elemental carbon.
In summary: Phobos and Deimos do contain carbon, primarily in the form of carbonaceous minerals and organic compounds, with much of the carbon delivered to their surfaces by interplanetary dust over time NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS). Wikipedia
Until informed otherwise I am going to go with a "Yes" for Carbon.
So, if you sent machines to Mars from the Earth/Moon that consisted of a nuclear fission reactor and used Lithium propellants to get to the Moon, the machine might also include, an oven to heat Carbon bearing regolith, which I expect would produce CO2. The CO2 could probably be cooled, compressed, and condensed. At some time to be processed to product CO and O2 as propellants.
Query: "Can a rocket engine burn a mix of Carbon Monoxide and Methane with Oxygen?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Combustion of CO and Methane with Oxygen in Rocket Engines
Yes — a rocket engine can burn a mixture of carbon monoxide (CO) and methane (CH₄) with oxygen (LOX), but the performance and practicality depend on how the two fuels are combined and the operating conditions.1. CO/O₂ combustion
Carbon monoxide burns readily with liquid oxygen. NASA experiments have shown that CO and LOX can ignite and sustain steady combustion in rocket engine simulations, with ignition boundaries determined for various inlet temperatures NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS). The specific impulse (Isp) for LOX/CO is relatively low — around 200–290 depending on chamber pressure Space Exploration Stack Exchange — compared to LOX/CH₄ (~299 Isp) Space Exploration Stack Exchange. This means CO/O₂ offers less thrust efficiency per unit of propellant mass.2. Methane/O₂ combustion
Methane is a well‑tested rocket fuel with LOX, producing high Isp and good stability. It is commonly used in engines like SpaceX’s Raptor.3. Combining CO and CH₄ with O₂
If you mix CO and CH₄ before injecting into an LOX engine, the mixture will combust, but the performance will be intermediate between the two pure fuel cases. The exact Isp and combustion stability depend on the mole ratio of CO to CH₄, the oxygen enrichment level, and the chamber pressure.Advantages: CO can be produced in situ from CO₂ (e.g., on Mars via photochemical reduction) without consuming water, unlike the Sabatier reaction for methane Space Exploration Stack Exchange.
Disadvantages: CO has lower energy density than CH₄, so adding it reduces overall Isp unless compensated by higher oxygen enrichment or staged combustion.
Ignition: Both CO and CH₄ ignite with LOX, so a mixture should ignite if the overall mixture ratio is within the LOX/CO ignition range and the CH₄ content is not so high as to shift the mixture outside the LOX/CH₄ range.
4. Practical considerations
Storage: CO liquefies at about -191.5°C, colder than LOX (-183°C), so LOX tanks would need to be insulated to prevent CO from freezing Space Exploration Stack Exchange.
Engine design: Mixing CO and CH₄ in the feed system requires careful control to avoid local fuel-rich or fuel-lean zones.
Mission use: On Mars, CO could be used as a supplement or primary fuel if water is scarce, but for high‑performance missions, LOX/CH₄ remains the preferred choice.
Conclusion
A rocket engine can burn a mix of CO and CH₄ with LOX, but the performance will be lower than pure LOX/CH₄ unless the mixture is optimized for LOX/CO combustion. For in‑situ propellant production on Mars, CO could be a viable alternative or supplement, but it will require careful engineering to match the performance and storage needs of conventional LOX/CH₄ systems
So, this possibly eliminates much of the Oxygen you have to lift from Mars to get back to Earth, and there could be two choices. Either bring some Methane and burn it with CO, or bring Hydrogen up and use it to produce Methane from the CO.
I think the part were you can fly nuclear reactors to the proximity of the two moons, and the process the raw materials of the moons makes this vary attractive.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-10 19:40:39)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#22 2026-07-11 07:30:22
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
From (th) & RobertDyck: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 17#p240217
Quote:
tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 25,113
For Void re post about possible use of CO as a propellant with LOX...The post in which this item appears was interesting. Thank you for doing the research to bring those ideas into view.
It is possible that you might have missed a detail due to the large quantity of information you collected.
Please investigate to see if the source for this quote was taken out of context?
Storage: CO liquefies at about -191.5°C, colder than LOX (-183°C), so LOX tanks would need to be insulated to prevent CO from freezing Space Exploration Stack Exchange.
That quote was pulled (apparently) from a web site where people without qualifications are free to make statements that make no sense. If you were willing to take the time to investigate, I would be interested in the facts of this situation. The statement quoted seems to imply that the colder substance might freeze if brought into contact with a warmer substance, so the reader is left unsure of what is proposed.
(th)
Online
Like button can go here
Report Quote
#263Yesterday 21:54:45
RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 8,461
Email Website
CO & LOX have a Specific Impulse (Isp) of 250 to 290 seconds in vacuum. That's poor. NASA looked at this as a means of Insitu Propellant Production before Robert Zubrin. His improvement was to bring hydrogen from Earth, used the sabatier process to convert to liquid methane. Which has Isp of 350 to 380 seconds. And LCH4 boiling temperature is -127.3°C at 10 bar pressure. So moderate pressure in the tank. Not even as cold as LOX. That makes it easy to work with.
Thanks for the inputs. I am not supposed to respond at the topic where (th) posted his post.
So, here then (th): Yes those numbers are puzzling.
CO Melting point −205.02 °C (−337.04 °F; 68.13 K)
CH4 Melting point −182.456 °C (−296.421 °F; 90.694 K)[3]
O2 Melting point (O2) 54.36 K (−218.79 °C, −361.82 °F)
Boiling points? May be pressure related?
CO Boiling point −191.5 °C (−312.7 °F; 81.6 K)
CH4 Boiling Point −161.49 °C (−258.68 °F; 111.66 K)[4]
O2 Boiling point −161.49 °C (−258.68 °F; 111.66 K)[4]
Well, if you did need an insulated partition, the gravity of Mars is 1/3rd that of Earth.
SpaceX likes to chill it's propellants below boiling point to avoid cavitation in pumps/turbines, and the shrink the size of the load.
-182 C might work for all.
And we have the question is the CO and Methane mixed together? If so, then the melting point may be different than either, possibly a lower than temperature than either.
If you have three tanks, then of course you increase the dry mass and have to have two different types of engines (Likely).
But the gravity is 1/3rd that of Earth.
For Robert: The idea of Mars Direct, and on site O2 and Methane production, is like an Olympic medal winner. It rules out 2/3rds of the surface of Mars at the start, as 2/3rds do not seem to have large amounts of water resource.
The is the problem of binary evaluation for important decision making. The choice is not wrong, it is well calculated, but only focuses on a narrow region of probable success.
For the moment I have had to make a best guess, as to which worlds have significant Carbon and Hydrogen. I am expecting that Mars does have both, and that Phobos and Deimos have only Carbon in quantity and very little accessible Hydrogen. We can expect that all three have Oxygen.
Again, all I am doing is seeking a list of options. Particularly for Orbital operations of Mars, CO/O2 might be "Good Enough" to get something done. And it is possible that a fuel mix may be "Good Enough" for communication between the surface and orbits.
You could have a starship with 9 engines. Maybe 6 Hydro lox, and 3 CO. On the surface of Mars fill 3 tanks, CO, CH4, and O2.
At Phobos or Deimos fill only the CO and O2.
A tank of CO and 3 CO engines might be good enough to land the Starship. It may even be possible that the CH4 tank could be filled with Liquid CO at times, but that would be tricky. You could not run the CH4 engines on the CO without damaging them I expect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The problem is gluttonous thinking. Size matters, and sizes matter. Sometimes "Big" is impressive but interferes with capable.
I have hesitated to comment on your post about civilizations, but the above would-be part of my post if I did.
Ending Pending
I confess though my mind is now on the idea of Lithium Plasma drives that NASA is looking into.
Both Earth and Mars are expected to have Lithium, Mars may even have more.
In such a future we might not be using Methane or CO and Oxygen for transit between planets.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-11 08:14:25)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#23 2026-07-11 09:28:29
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
What I have been pondering is the economics of Uranium and Thorium.
While it is probable the much of these will be wanted on Earth, it appears that the Oceans of Earth are full of dissolved Uranium. I presume that briny water all of the solar system may be similar.
The price of extracting Uranium from sea water may or may not become economical for use on Earth. If it does not become economic on Earth, it may be worthwhile in space.
If Enceladus is lifeless, could Uranium be extracted from its Ocean?
What about Mars aquifers?
I am a big fan of Solar power in orbits. But as you go further out into the solar system, Stationary solar power makes sense. At Ceres, in orbit you could have a 10 to 1 mirror to concentrate light. But as you mirrors get bigger and bigger they become cumbersome and even may have excessive "Dry Mass".
So, I have become a fan of fission, as it is going to exist if we use it or not. Someone will use it and it might as well be us.
So, the value of Uranium or Thorium is different at different worlds, and also different on the surface than it is in orbits.
The water very deep on Mars might be worth seeking if the Uranium in it may be useful to power traveling spaceships.
If humans choose to turn the south ice cap of Mars in to a giant robot city, for the North Ice cap melting might be the thing to do. If you could inflate a ocean in the North, it may bring life to the planet and also the Uranium might be made available in the sea water.
You might turn a mostly ice-covered ocean into a radiator. Suppose you put rectenna's on top of the ice, and beamed power from space.
You could have manufacturing processes in the water and in the crust under the water. The waste heat would percolate into the water and keep it melted. The more heat you put into the sea, the thinner the ice would be.
But over time additional water may accumulate from this North Sea to the South Pole, so you would simply melt ice and snow (Cooling processes) and funnel the melt water down the south hemisphere to the North Ocean, and generate electricity from Hydro-electric process.
The Uranium could be very useful in reaching out to the outer solar system where you might get more materials to further terraform Mars.
If Lithium is also available from the sea water, then you have a propellant that the Uranium can drive.
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasa-fire … s-to-mars/
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
NASA is developing lithium-fed magnetoplasmadynamic (MPD) thrusters, a high-power electric propulsion technology that could enable faster, more efficient missions to Mars.
Overview of Lithium Propellant Technology
NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) is testing lithium-fed MPD thrusters, which use lithium metal vapor as a propellant. Unlike conventional chemical rockets, these thrusters employ strong electric currents interacting with magnetic fields to accelerate lithium plasma, producing continuous thrust over long durations
NASA
NASA
+1
. This method is highly efficient, using up to 90% less propellant than traditional rockets, and allows spacecraft to gradually reach extremely high speeds, such as the 124,000 mph achieved by the Psyche mission’s solar-powered electric thrusters
NASA
NASA
+1
.Recent Testing and Performance
In February 2026, JPL successfully tested a prototype lithium MPD thruster at 120 kilowatts, over 25 times the power of current high-power electric thrusters
NASA
NASA
+2
. The thruster operated inside the CoMeT (Condensable Metal Propellant) vacuum facility, a specialized chamber designed to safely handle metal vapor propellants and simulate space conditions
NASA
NASA
+1
. During testing, the thruster’s tungsten electrodes reached temperatures above 5,000°F, demonstrating both ignition stability and sustained performance at unprecedented power levels
dailygalaxy.com
dailygalaxy.com
.Advantages of Lithium Propellants
High thrust and efficiency: Lithium plasma allows greater acceleration than conventional ion or Hall-effect thrusters
NASA
NASA
+1
.
Reduced launch mass: Efficient propellant use lowers the amount of fuel needed, enabling heavier payloads or larger crews for human missions
ScienceDaily
ScienceDaily
+1
.
Scalability: Future designs aim for 500 kilowatts to 1 megawatt per thruster, potentially supporting multi-megawatt systems for crewed Mars missions
NASA
NASA
.
Compatibility with nuclear power: Pairing lithium MPD thrusters with nuclear electric propulsion could sustain long-duration missions while maintaining high speeds and payload capacity
NASA
NASA
+1
.
Solid Propellant Applications
In addition to plasma thrusters, lithium-aluminum alloys are being explored as additives in solid rocket propellants for mass-limited in-space missions. These alloys can improve performance metrics such as delta-velocity and payload efficiency compared to standard aluminized composite propellants
NASA
NASA
.Future Prospects
NASA’s lithium propulsion research is part of a broader effort to develop megawatt-class electric propulsion systems. Fully operational lithium MPD thrusters could significantly reduce travel time to Mars, support human exploration, and enable new mission architectures previously impractical with conventional propulsion
NASA
NASA
+2
. Challenges remain, including thermal management and long-duration operation, but ongoing tests provide critical data for scaling up these systems.
In summary, lithium propellants represent a promising frontier in electric propulsion, offering high efficiency, strong thrust, and the potential to transform deep space exploration and human missions to Mars.
I also like the Magdrive and Neumann Drives, and they may be of value as well, but this one from NASA looks rather special.
Even Starships newly minted on Earth, might be brought to Mars orbits using Nuclear-Electric-Lithium-Plasma methods.
Then upon arrival to be refilled with Methane and Oxygen, to begin service, or to land and become housing.
Ending Pending
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Lithium on Mars
Lithium is a lightweight, reactive metal essential for modern batteries, alloys, and various industrial applications. On Mars, it is not abundant in the same concentrated form as on Earth, but it may have been concentrated in salt deposits during periods when liquid water was present marspedia.org. Some Martian meteorites have detected lithium chloride salts, suggesting that lithium could be preserved in certain mineral forms marspedia.org.Possible Sources and Formation
On Earth, lithium is found in salt flats (brines) from ancient lake evaporation and in pegmatite igneous rocks. Mars’ volcanic history and widespread cratering indicate past geologic activity that could have produced similar environments. Magma cooling and hydrothermal processes on Mars may have concentrated incompatible elements, including lithium, in mineral veins or salt deposits Wikipedia. The presence of ancient water and brine systems could have left behind lithium-rich salts.Research and Detection
While no large-scale, easily extractable lithium ore fields have been confirmed on Mars, studies of Martian meteorites and surface samples have found trace lithium in chloride form marspedia.org. This suggests that lithium could be present in small quantities in certain Martian minerals, but not in the economically viable concentrations for immediate mining.Future Use in Mars Missions
Lithium is of interest for future Mars bases because of its role in energy storage. Scientists are developing lithium–Mars gas batteries (LMGBs) that can generate electricity directly from Martian atmospheric gases like carbon dioxide Phys.org+1. These batteries could be more efficient and less reliant on transporting fuel from Earth. Research has shown that Mars’ day-night temperature swings can be harnessed in a temperature-adaptive charging protocol to improve battery lifespan and performance Phys.org+1.Summary
Presence: Trace lithium detected in Martian meteorites and possibly in salt deposits from ancient water systems marspedia.org.Formation: Could have been concentrated in brines or hydrothermal veins during Mars’ wetter past Wikipedia.
Potential Use: Key for future Mars energy storage, especially in LMGBs that use local CO₂ Phys.org+1.
Status: Not yet in large, exploitable deposits, but research is ongoing for extraction and battery applications.
In short, lithium on Mars is not yet a major resource, but it may be recoverable in small amounts from certain minerals, and its importance for Martian energy systems is driving targeted research.
My understanding is that if Mars had a time period where its atmosphere was 2 bar, cosmic rays may have created a lot of Lithium.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1208.6311
Quote:
Lithium generated by cosmic rays: an estimator of the
time that Mars had a thicker atmosphere and liquid
water
Hector Javier Durand-Manterola
Space Science Department, Institute of Geophysics, National Autonomous University of
Mexico
hdurand_manterola@yahoo.com
Abstract
Lithium is overabundant in cosmic rays because protons impact on carbon and oxygen
nuclei and fission them. Among the products of this fission is lithium.
So, this makes me wonder if icy worlds may have lithium created in their ices?
We don't know yet I am sure.
Ending Pending
OK, this disputes the Cosmic Ray origination of Lithium as the major source. Instead NOVA the major source.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith … smic-rays/ Quote:
Lithium Mystery Solved: It's Exploding Stars, Not The Big Bang Or Cosmic Rays
Starts With A Bang
ByEthan Siegel,Former Contributor. The Universe is out there, waiting for you to discover it.
for Starts With A Bang
Jun 03, 2020, 02:00am EDTJun 03, 2020, 03:42am EDT
Well, that is good news if true. As lighter elements were pushed away from the sun more easily, it may be that Lithium will in greater quantities on Mars.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-11 10:00:38)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#24 2026-07-11 10:15:24
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
(th) made a request after reading post #20 which I created today: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 28#p240228
Quote:
tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 25,118
For Void ... in a recent post, in mid July 2026, you offered an intriguing idea that Uranium might be found in the oceans of objects other than the Earth.This is an idea that needs to be pursued to see if can be supported by evidence, or if it must be labeled as pure speculation.
Please see if one of the AI systems can find evidence to support your interesting idea.
(th)
So, far, AI is cautious and perhaps rightfully anticipates that the Uranium salts of Mars will be less than those of Earth.
But less is not necessarily a loss. If the Uranium that could be found can be extracted for a benefit desired, less is not an issue.
I expect that as I think Mars may have more Lithium than Earth, it may well have less Urainium. Mars in general is more composed of lighter materials than is the Earth.
https://newspaceeconomy.ca/2024/12/30/u … lications/
Quote:
Uranium on Mars: Potential and Implications
Author: NSE Staff | Published: 12/30/24
AI says:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
While uranium likely exists on Mars, there is no direct evidence that ancient Martian seas contained uranium salts, though geochemical conditions could have allowed trace amounts to dissolve or precipitate.
Uranium on Mars
Mars is known to contain uranium in its crust, though in lower concentrations than Earth. Geological studies suggest that volcanic activity, sedimentary processes, and hydrothermal systems could have concentrated uranium in certain regions of the Martian crust
newspaceeconomy.ca
newspaceeconomy.ca
+1
. Martian meteorites analyzed on Earth contain trace amounts of uranium, indicating that the element is present in Martian rocks
newspaceeconomy.ca
newspaceeconomy.ca
. Remote sensing has also detected elements like thorium and potassium, which often co-occur with uranium on Earth, suggesting that uranium may exist in similar contexts on Mars
newspaceeconomy.ca
newspaceeconomy.ca
+1
.Ancient Martian Water and Salt Deposits
Evidence indicates that Mars once had large bodies of liquid water, including oceans in the northern hemisphere and lakes in craters like Jezero
Wikipedia
Wikipedia
+1
. Salt deposits on Mars, primarily composed of magnesium and sulfur compounds similar to Epsom salts, suggest repeated cycles of water evaporation and mineral precipitation
The University of Chicago
The University of Chicago
. These salts formed under conditions that allowed dissolved minerals to concentrate as water evaporated, but analyses so far have not identified uranium salts among them
The University of Chicago
The University of Chicago
.Possibility of Uranium Salts
On Earth, uranium can form soluble salts in water, particularly under oxidizing conditions, and precipitate as minerals like uraninite or carnotite in sedimentary environments. If Martian seas were chemically similar to terrestrial waters, trace uranium could have dissolved and potentially precipitated as salts in localized areas, especially where hydrothermal activity or volcanic inputs enriched the water with uranium
newspaceeconomy.ca
newspaceeconomy.ca
+1
. However, the dominant salts detected on Mars are magnesium and sulfate-based, and no direct detection of uranium salts has been reported in Martian sediments or evaporites
The University of Chicago
The University of Chicago
.Conclusion
While Mars has uranium in its crust and ancient seas existed, there is currently no direct evidence that uranium salts were a significant component of Martian waters. It remains plausible that trace amounts could have been present, particularly in regions influenced by volcanic or hydrothermal activity, but the primary salts identified in Martian deposits are magnesium and sulfate compounds
newspaceeconomy.ca
newspaceeconomy.ca
+1
. Future in-situ analyses by rovers or sample return missions may clarify whether uranium ever formed salts in Martian aquatic environments.
I think that these AI declarations should be taken with a pinch of salt. It looks as though they try appearing to be wise by not taking risks.
If I don't take a chance I can never be wrong is the notion, but we are wrong to be that way.
I am surprised that AI tried to answer this query: "At its maximum axis tilt how warm might the North pole of Mars become?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Maximum Warmth of Mars’ North Pole at Extreme Axial Tilt
If Mars’ axial tilt were at its maximum historical value — around 80° — the planet would be nearly “pole-on” to the Sun, with the north pole receiving direct, year-round sunlight Mars Odyssey Mission THEMIS. This would be the opposite of today’s climate, when the north pole is in permanent winter darkness.At such an extreme tilt, the north pole would be the warmest region on Mars, while the equator and southern hemisphere would be in prolonged darkness and extreme cold Mars Odyssey Mission THEMIS. The warmth would be driven by:
Direct solar irradiance: The north pole would be exposed to sunlight for most of the Martian year, avoiding the long winter shadows that dominate today.
Seasonal CO₂ ice sublimation: In spring, the CO₂ frost covering the north pole would sublimate into the atmosphere, thickening it and potentially triggering dust storms CompleteEra.
Atmospheric circulation: Warm air from the equator would flow toward the pole, but the extreme tilt would still keep the pole in the Sun’s direct beam.
While exact surface temperatures at 80° tilt are not directly measured, climate models suggest that the north pole could warm to several degrees Celsius above today’s average winter temperatures — perhaps in the –20°C to –10°C range in spring/summer — compared to today’s –125°C winter lows CompleteEra+1. This is still far colder than Earth’s tropics, but it would be dramatically warmer than the current Martian north pole.
Key points:
Current north pole winter: ~–125°C, permanent darkness CompleteEra.
At 80° tilt: Direct sunlight year-round, CO₂ ice sublimation, possible dust storms.
Estimated warmth: –20°C to –10°C in spring/summer, much milder than today’s pole.
In short, at maximum tilt, the Martian north pole could become a relatively warm, sunlit region — but still far colder than Earth’s equatorial zones — with seasonal CO₂-driven atmospheric changes.
It did not get it entirely right. the North Pole would have about 1/2 year of sunlight and 1/2 year of dark as it does now. And the South Pole would have the inverse at the same time. This might create conditions where the CO2 has nowhere to condense so the atmosphere may be thicker. Continuous sunlight on dirty ice or snow could possibly melt water even at -10 or -20 C.
But also, during the time where ice is sublimating from the North pole and migrating to the Equator and South pole, the greenhouse gas H20 would be greater in the atmosphere, and may provide additional warming.
And then we can roll back time. Billions of years ago the atmosphere was thicker, and the crust was warmer, and Volcano's occasionally erupted. So, melting events at the North Pole may have been possible under the most extreme conditions to allow warming.
https://airandspace.si.edu/multimedia-g … r-cap-mars
Image Quote: 
Query:
Does the North Polar ice Cap of Mars press the crust of Mars down?
The AI answer here is very interesting!
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Yes — the North Polar ice cap of Mars does press the crust down, but the effect is much smaller and slower than on Earth because of Mars’s cold, stiff interior.Recent geophysical studies using orbital radar data have shown that the ~3km‑thick ice sheet at Mars’s north pole bends the rocky crust beneath it at a rate of about 0.13mm per year DLR Portal. This is a measurable deformation, but it is far slower than the glacial isostatic adjustment seen on Earth, where ice sheets can depress the crust by many metres over thousands of years.
The reason for this slow response is that Mars’s mantle is highly viscous — roughly 10 to 100 times more viscous than Earth’s DLR Portal. This stiffness means the crust deforms little under the ice’s weight, and the depression is still not large enough to be easily detected from orbit. The ice cap itself is also relatively young, having formed only 2–12million years ago, so the crust has not had enough time to settle significantly TU Delft+1.
In short:
Yes, the ice cap depresses the crust.
The depression is small and slow due to Mars’s cold, stiff mantle.
The ice is young, so the crust is still adjusting downward rather than having fully settled.
This process is similar to glacial isostatic adjustment on Earth, but on Mars it’s a much more gradual and subtle effect.
Quote:
2–12million years ago
Query: "When did the mid latitude ice sheets of Mars form?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Formation Timing of Mars’ Mid-Latitude Ice Sheets
Recent research indicates that the mid-latitude subsurface ice on Mars is the remnant of a past ice sheet that formed when the planet’s obliquity (axial tilt) was higher than today, allowing ice to accumulate at lower latitudes arXiv.org.Using improved Mars climate models, scientists estimate that the ice was emplaced about 630,000 years ago at latitudes of 40–55°N, when obliquity was around 35–40° arXiv.org. This timing explains why the ice today is buried 25–150cm (and up to 255cm in some cases) beneath regolith, with depth variations matching observations. The study concludes that the ice is younger than 4 million years arXiv.org.
However, broader geological and climate modeling shows that Mars was once covered by thick, widespread ice sheets during periods of high obliquity. Around 640 million years ago, the planet likely had a much wetter, colder climate with extensive ice coverage www.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp. Over hundreds of millions of years, obliquity cycles caused ice to advance and retreat, with the most recent major accumulation event occurring about 98 million years ago, when ice was deposited in localized “cold traps” in mid-latitude craters www.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp.
In summary:
Recent buried ice: ~630kyr ago, during a high-obliquity phase (~35–40°) arXiv.org.
Earlier ice sheets: As far back as ~640Myr ago, during a much colder, wetter climate www.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp.
Latest major accumulation: ~98Myr ago, in localized mid-latitude cold traps www.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp.
These findings show that Mars’ mid-latitude ice has a long, multi-stage history, tied directly to changes in the planet’s orbital and axial parameters.
So, I suggest that the argument between dust and exposed ice also have had effects at times.
Query:
High Altitude Clouds May have warmed Mars in the Past?
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2101959118
Quote:
Warm early Mars surface enabled by high-altitude water ice clouds
Edwin S. Kite https://orcid.org/0000-0002-1426-1186 kite@uchicago.edu, Liam J. Steele https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6611-0179, Michael A. Mischna https://orcid.org/0000-0002-8022-5319, and Mark I. Richardson https://orcid.org/0000-0001-9633-4141Authors Info & Affiliations
Edited by Mark Thiemens, University of California San Diego, La Jolla, CA, and approved March 10, 2021 (received for review February 4, 2021)
April 26, 2021
118 (18) e2101959118
https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2101959118
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
High‑Altitude Icy Clouds May Have Warmed Early Mars
A new study suggests that thin layers of icy, high‑altitude clouds could have kept early Mars warm enough to support lakes and rivers for hundreds of years, despite the planet receiving only about one‑third of today’s sunlight University of Chicago News+1.The Climate Puzzle
Mars today is a cold desert, but geological evidence shows it once had flowing rivers and lakes. Models of a simple greenhouse effect using CO₂ and water vapor alone predict temperatures too cold for liquid water. Earlier ideas, such as asteroid impacts, could not explain the long‑term warmth seen in the geologic record University of Chicago News+1.The Cloud Greenhouse Hypothesis
The University of Chicago team, led by Edwin Kite, revisited the idea of radiatively active water ice clouds in the upper atmosphere, similar to cirrus clouds on Earth. These clouds can trap heat and create a greenhouse effect, even if they are thin SYFY Official Site.Why Patchy Ice Matters
The key finding was that warm, stable climates only emerged when surface water ice was patchy, not widespread.Extensive surface ice led to thick, low clouds that reflected sunlight and cooled the planet.
Patchy ice meant less surface moisture, allowing high‑altitude clouds to form and persist. These clouds warmed the planet by trapping heat, while the arid conditions prevented excessive cloud formation pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+1.
How the Model Works
Using a 3D global climate model, the researchers simulated:A dynamic water cycle with cloud particle sedimentation and snow‑out thresholds.
Sublimation of ice particles as they fell, moistening the subcloud layer.
Modest updrafts sustaining large amounts of high‑altitude cloud sseh.uchicago.edu.
The simulations showed Mars could reach average annual temperatures around 265K—warm enough for low‑latitude lakes—and stay that way for centuries pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.
Implications
This mechanism supports the idea of a warm, arid early Mars climate, consistent with geological data. It also suggests that lakes could have been fed by groundwater upwelling or melting ice during a cold‑to‑warm transition sseh.uchicago.edu.In short, high‑altitude icy clouds may have been the missing piece in explaining how Mars stayed habitable for so long before it became the cold desert we see today.
I have suggested a robot city be built inside the North Polar Ice Cap. The waste heat would require disposal. One method would be to vaporize water and expel it to the atmosphere.
Another way would be to melt vast vaults in the interior of the ice and flow cold water out to the edge of the ice cap to fill a sea that might ring the ice cap.
That might pick up salt deposits as it expanded, and those deposits may contain some Uranium salts.
Power beamed down by way of Microwave might also help to keep the ice covered sea melted under the ice.
By creating more moisture in the atmosphere doing this high altitude clouds may form, warming the planet.
So, there may be some virtue in creating such a sea, to extract Lithium and Uranium Salts from it and also to be "Farmable" waters.
Well, I am stopping now. If you are tired, imagine how I am.
Ending Pending
Last edited by Void (2026-07-11 11:08:43)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here
#25 Yesterday 08:02:29
- Void
- Member
- Registered: 2011-12-29
- Posts: 9,669
Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)
RobertDyck made a useful contribution elsewhere: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 32#p240232
Quote:
RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 8,467
Email Website
Mars Odyssey used a gamma ray sensor to detect thorium. It produced a map of thorium concentration across the surface of Mars. Again, this is based on gamma ray emissions, with assumption that gamma is produced by thorium. On Earth, thorium is used as an indicator element to find uranium. That means, when there's thorium, there's a good likelihood there's also uranium. I have argued thorium itself can be used as fuel in a nuclear reactor.JPL March 2003: Map of Martian Thorium at Mid-Latitudes https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/pia0425 … latitudes/
NASA same map, but 2 resolutions: Map of Martian Thorium at Mid-Latitudes https://science.nasa.gov/photojournal/m … latitudes/
As I understand it Uranium is soluble as a salt. Thorium is not.
So, running water may have moved Uranium Salts to evaporation produced salt flats. These may be covered to some extent by other weather induced effects. But useful Uranium is not a guarantee. However, because Mars has a lack of burnable resources, the value of Uranium or Thorium would be more than on Earth. It might be worth extracting from "Seawater" or salt deposits.
Over time it is becoming apparent that cooling as well as energy matters for a modern technological society.
Well, the Mars polar ice caps represent a lot of cooling. And tapping into that cooling might not be too hard. But you need some tricks, and sources of energy to make it valuable.
While nuclear fission and fusion may well have a place as energy sources, we also have a more expandable energy source in orbit of Mars.
Query: "Could Microwave power beaming work for Mars, even in the dust storms?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Microwave Power Beaming Through Martian Dust Storms
Microwave power beaming — sending energy from a transmitter (e.g., in orbit or on Mars) to a receiver via a focused microwave beam — could work on Mars, even during dust storms, but with important caveats.How it works
Space power beaming converts electricity into a directed microwave beam, aimed at a rectenna (rectifying antenna) that converts it back into usable power www.satnow.com+1. On Mars, a space-based transmitter could beam energy to a surface receiver, avoiding the need to carry large onboard power systems.Why dust storms are a concern
Martian dust storms can block sunlight and severely reduce solar array output, as seen with the Opportunity rover in 2018 NASA+1. However, dust particles are small (about 3 micrometers) and the atmosphere is very thin (~6 mbar vs. Earth’s 1000 mbar) space.sciencearray.com. This means scattering of microwaves is less severe than for sunlight, especially at lower frequencies (e.g., 3–6 GHz) Reddit. Lower frequencies penetrate dust better and are less affected by particle size.Efficiency trade-offs
Studies suggest that even under clear skies, microwave beaming efficiency from orbit to Mars is low — for example, a 6.28 MW satellite source might deliver only 100 kW at the surface Reddit. Dust storms could further reduce efficiency due to beam scattering and absorption, but the effect is likely less than for solar panels, which can be rendered nearly useless during global storms space.sciencearray.com.Feasibility in storms
Advantage: Microwave beams are less sensitive to dust than sunlight, so they can remain operational during storms, unlike solar arrays Reddit.
Challenge: Atmospheric scattering still occurs, and beam alignment and receiver design must account for dust-induced signal degradation.
Comparison: Surface solar panels are still viable for short-term or local use, but for long-duration or remote operations, beaming could be more reliable Reddit.
Bottom line
Microwave power beaming can work on Mars during dust storms, especially at lower microwave frequencies, but it will be less efficient than in clear conditions. It’s a promising complement to solar power for missions that need continuous energy, but the system design must optimize for low-scattering frequencies, beam stability, and receiver robustness. For now, it’s more of a backup or supplement than a complete replacement for solar in most scenarios.
This reply downplays the efficiency, but again on a world where burning things is not a significant option an alternate energy source is needed.
In any case, it will be harder to get microwave power to the polar ice caps than to the equator.
But there is no particular rule against the use of ground based solar panels even on top of the ice caps.
In fact it may be a terraforming tool to change the albedo of the ice surface.
There would be various ways to extract coolant from the ice caps here is one.
At some low point in an ice mass a tunnel is melted at an angle into the ice mass. If needed some Mars air is also pushed in, to make a low pressure. We only want ice water, nothing much warmer.
A river of water flows and caverns are created.
After the main shaft is created a robot with mirrors can travel into the tunnel and deflect the laser beam to carve significant sized vaults.
It is expected that water fill flow down to the Laser station so, means to handle that are needed.
Now that you have the fluid you may use it for various needs, amount them as cooling. Either as evaporative cooling or to create ice covered reservoirs.
Fresh water at 0 degrees C can still be warmed a bit more. 3.88888889 degrees C. This is the densest state for fresh water. It can accumulate under colder water and that colder water can lie on top of ice water.
Shafts created by Laser mining of Ice could be abandoned, but various resources could be used to make them useful habitation, mostly for robots and machinery.
Carbon, it seems may serve as a electrical conductor, so transferring energy though VOIDS in the ice caps may be possible.
Query: "Carbon as an electric device?"
Quote:
Copilot Search Branding
Like
Dislike
Carbon in Electric Devices
Carbon is a versatile material in electrical engineering, used in both traditional and cutting-edge devices due to its unique combination of electrical, thermal, and mechanical properties.Traditional electrical applications
Filaments in incandescent lamps: Carbon filaments (often from graphite or carbonized materials) have high resistivity and a melting point around 3500°C, making them suitable for lighting applications Electrical4U.
Electrical contacts: Carbon fibers or graphite enhance contact strength, reduce wear, and lower contact resistance in switches and relays Electrical4U.
Resistors: Carbon’s high resistivity, high melting point, and low temperature coefficient make it ideal for fixed resistors in electronic circuits Electrical4U.
Brushes for DC machines and alternators: Graphite carbon brushes offer high thermal stability and improved commutation Electrical4U.
Electrodes: Used in arc lighting, welding, electric furnaces, and battery cell elements Electrical4U.
Electromagnetic shielding: Carbon composites can block electromagnetic interference Personal websites at UB.
Modern and advanced uses
Conductive additives: Carbon black or fibers are added to polymers to improve electrical conductivity in composites Personal websites at UB.
All-carbon conductors: Carbon nanotubes, graphene, and carbon fibers can replace or supplement metal wiring, offering lightweight, flexible, and corrosion-resistant alternatives Frontiers.
Electronic devices: Functionalized carbon materials (graphene, CNTs) are used in sensors, supercapacitors, inkjet printer inks, and wearable electronics MDPI.
High-performance electronics: Carbon nanotubes are being explored as post-silicon transistors, offering high gate controllability and potential to overcome silicon scaling limits MDPI.
Why carbon works
Carbon’s electrical conductivity depends on its structure—graphite conducts well in-plane, while amorphous or low-crystallinity forms are less conductive but mechanically robust Personal websites at UB. Its high thermal stability, chemical inertness, and ability to be engineered at the nanoscale make it adaptable for both simple and complex devices.In summary, carbon—from graphite filaments to nanotube-based transistors—plays a key role in electric devices, spanning from everyday lighting and contacts to next-generation flexible and high-performance electronics.
And on Mers with water and Mars atmosphere making plastics is possible.
Regolith can be sintered into objects basalt can be cast into objects.
Tents with good insulation and heat pumps can manage a situation under ice.
One habitat is anchored to the Regolith. The other is "Floating" in the ice. You could ballast the floater with extra regolith or sinter blocks.
Laser tunnels could make sure that you could drain the setup into a sea, or evaporation cool some process such as a reactor. Not only lasers but excess heat from machinery operating could be used to continually melt more chambers.
Later on when cooling from digging tunnels was no longer practica as all space has been taken, up new snow accumulated on the surface of the cap could be dropped down shafts to provide coolants.
A vast city with enormous productive capability might be made to exist at each ice cap. Also, Korolev Crater.
Liquid water output which served to cool the industrial activities could be routed to reservoirs of water covered with ice and manufactured materials.
Salts dissolved in the waters of these reservoirs may come to contain Uranium and Lithium Salts.
If there are salt domes under the reservoirs they can be drilled into and turned into storage devices for fluid products and for heat.
Ending Pending
From post #20:
Quote:
So, from my point of view we want all three options for Mars:
So, as I have previously thought, propellants manufactured in orbit. Some habitations and some solar power plants to beam power down to the surface. In the ice masses, large manufacturing cities.
At the Equator, Farming with a massive buried ice reservoir of water.
Ending Pending
.
Last edited by Void (Yesterday 09:01:37)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
Offline
Like button can go here