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#1 2026-07-02 10:00:55

Void: Member; Registered: 2011-12-29; Posts: 9,641

AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)

As a terraforming tool for Mars and worlds in their own rights.

(If management permits this, it is an expansion on an idea of Callibans, to transport water from Callisto to Mars).

Very basic:

A cross section of a water filled cylinder with a compartment in which a Stanford Torus spins. (Grey Color).

Further explanation exists in this post to another topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 47#p240047

These (Much more elaborate versions) could be constructed in orbit of ice worlds in the asteroid belt, Ceres and 10 Hygiea for instance.

Some of them could Loiter in association with such an asteroid. Maybe in it's "L1" location.

Some would use propellants such as water to migrate to elliptical orbits that might intercept that of Mars.

A combination of mass drivers and perhaps water plasma drives could bring water from the ones in circular orbits in the asteroid belt to the ones in Elliptical orbits that might intercept Mars.

In addition to moving water and perhaps Ammonia to Mars these platforms could be used as safe havens that "Starships" could couple to for a ride here and there where these things may orbit to and from.

The water chambers will likely be partitioned and protected from impactors to some extent.

They may at times couple to a small stony asteroid and metabolize its raw materials into their structures.

As a tool for expansion of Mars and asteroid efforts, I feel these would have great value.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2026-07-02 17:06:45)

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#2 2026-07-02 11:20:09

tahanson43206: Moderator; Registered: 2018-04-27; Posts: 25,065

Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members.

Index:

(th)

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#3 2026-07-03 06:58:13

Void: Member; Registered: 2011-12-29; Posts: 9,641

Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)

Sorry that this is not what you preferred (th).

I may well reveal my lack of proficiency with what I am going to try, but I already think that there are things to learn attempting this topic.

From this list I already uncovered some interesting things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M … or_planets
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1580_Betulia
It looks really good except for its inclination. Even so it would provide a lot of propellants to make up for that.
Quote:

Physical characteristics
In the Tholen classification, Betulia is an unusual C-type asteroid, as near-Earth objects are typically of stony rather than carbonaceous composition.[1] Based on images taken by the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, the asteroid has also been characterized as a carbonaceous but "brighter" B-type asteroid.[19]

If you could use Nuclear-Thermal-Methane, perhaps that would be helpful. There could be hope for another Carbonaceous type that has a better orbit, but most Mars & Earth Crossers are stony.

There are many stony asteroids that seem to have an orbit of 3.2 AU to 1.1 AU, (Just outside of the Earth orbit. This could be useful.

While Ceres and 10 Hygeia are interesting, I also came across Kemi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1508_Kemi
Quote:

Aphelion 3.9264 AU
Perihelion 1.6167 AU

It is called a Mars grazer or crosser, but does not get really close to Mars.
Again, the Inclination is large, but not as bad as Betulia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
Ceres has an inclination of 10.6 and 10 Hygeia has 5.1 inclination. But their orbits are relatively circular.

But Ceres is more likely than 10 Hygeia to have large amounts of Nitrogen.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The logic I claim is based on changes that seem to be emerging in technology.
1) Robot Labor may be extremely cheap and may be much more durable than human labor.
2) Expanded energy sources are seeming to become available.
3) Nuclear propulsion methods seem to be emerging.

What I am thinking is that there are many stony asteroids that seem to be in excentric orbits, that don't quite cross Earth but also move upward into the main Asteroid belt.

If we could get large quantities of volatile substances to them, they could be processed into bridges from Earth and Mars into and out of the main asteroid belt.

So, I am trying to come up with a update on "ONiell" concepts of space habitats in consideration of these things.

Pause for drawing..................

More of a block diagram than a engineering drawing, I think.

It is a cross section of a more or less spherical object.

The Black outer shell is of Carbon impregnated with magnetic Iron. This is an impact protector, and should it be shredded in one spot by an impactor, magnetism may keep some of the fragments in reach to recover.

Going inward then the white zone may be a vacuum shell.

going inward a sphere of water is bounded by two spherical walls. This may be in the form of honeycomb, like a beehive. That way a puncture would only drain one cell or water out into the vacuum.

The light grey layer is a robot work area with different levels of low synthetic gravity. It can be partitioned by walls and floors.

The inner spherical wall of the robot chamber forma a tank for still more fluids like water.

Inside of that is a vacuum chamber (White), in which a disc like synthetic gravity device may spin (Dark Grey)

I have not shown energy sourcing or propulsion methods. Those could be exterior to this, and of variable natures.

I do not concentrate on windows for agriculture. I am presuming that interior lighting and the use of chemical farming will provide plenty.

But sunrooms and greenhouses could be added on.

If these were manufactured in proximity of a world like Ceres, then they might loiter near Ceres, or begin to chase down an asteroid of some kind that is in an elliptical orbit of the sun.

They may be restocked with water by robot ships as they deplete their water.

Upon reaching a asteroid such as a common stony one, propulsion may switch over to metal-plasma types where less valued substances from the stony asteroid would be used. The Stony asteroid would be converted to resource structure over time.

Ideally the result would end up in an orbit that has Aphelion in the asteroid belt, and Perihelion, near a terrestrial planet such as Mars or Earth.

Then these could serve as traveling landing pads for spaceships, to move about.

Ending Pending

This metal asteroid might be good for jumping Belt<>Mars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/132_Aethra
Quote:

Aphelion 3.6230 AU (541.99 Gm)
Perihelion 1.6012 AU (239.54 Gm)

Perhaps parts could be cleaved off of it to make them travel closer to the orbit of Mars.

There are quite a few asteroids that have similar orbits in the Outer Grazers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M … or_planets

Here is a small stony asteroid that also grazes Earth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1620_Geographos
Image Quote:
(Earth Blue, Mars Red).

Power supplies could be solar with concentrating mirrors.

Ending Pending

If a near miss of Mars became expected, then a great deal of ices might be dumped out to deliver to Mars as atmospheric impactors.

There would be a constant flow of one way water transport robots that could move water from the outer asteroid belt to these structures.

The robot ships might be started on their way from a place like Ceres, using a mass driver method.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2026-07-03 11:44:05)

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#4 2026-07-03 11:50:42

Void: Member; Registered: 2011-12-29; Posts: 9,641

Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)

Adding to the previous post:

OK, Solar power is used, even at the orbit of Ceres or 10 Hygeia.

Other boost methods may start it on it's way though.

So, suppose someone wanted to upgrade the value of a stony rock like Eros: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros

It appears that even stony asteroids may have some water content, but it is sparce for the most part, I think.

*By the way I am housebound again from another repertory illness. That is why I am putting so much time into it.

If a robotic dominated build factory(s) could be set up at Ceres or 10 Hygiea or the equivalent, then perhaps these devices could be used to basically 'light a match, to start a fire".

If they have room for a few people and many robots and have a Carbon shell, and water tanks, and a little Nitrogen then the materials of stony asteroids might be crafted into good things.

Here is an article on asteroidal water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroidal_water
While Eros might have some water, it would probably help to initiate activities with a massive donation of water from Ceres or 10 Hygiea.
This article indicates the detection of water on Eros: https://christophegaron.com/articles/re … ploration/
Quote:

Water and hydroxyl, once believed to only exist in primitive bodies beyond 2.5-3 Astronomical Units (AU), have now been detected on the surfaces of near-Earth asteroids 433 Eros and 1036 Ganymed. This breakthrough challenges previous assumptions about the distribution of water in our solar system.

It is also possible that these rocks may have small amounts of hydrated minerals and even brine includsions.

So, I feel that if we could create a factory or factories that create starter devices similar to what I have shown, we might turn world like Eros into "Places" where humans might live.

So then we can mine a Dwarf Object:

And build things, both underground and in orbits.

So, then the idea can emerge of a Mass Driver that might put mass into orbit. Perhaps then to mass produce water rockets to send inward in the solar system. Another launch device could cast them into a lower orbit of elliptical nature.

Perhaps a spin launch type thing.

This is a possible option. If it does not suit the needs something else might work.
https://www.shutterstock.com/search/spi … ing.com%2F
Image Quote:

Let's say we spin a spiral slide using a highly efficient method. Perhaps water plasma, or Magdrive, or Neumann Drive.

We can enter through the side at the center and release a load down the slide. Timing and drag and imposed acceleration will decide at what point of rotation the load will leave the outer end of the spiral. But we have a problem. Action and Reaction.

If the load is released against the existing energy of orbit, it should drop from a more circular orbit to a more ecocritical orbit with less energy. But the Spiral slide will then gain orbital speed in the opposite direction and try to move to a higher orbit. I think that we may be able to use the Hill Sphere of a small world to fix that.

I am going to have to donate to Wikipedia. I love this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_sphere
Image Quote:

So, Ceres has a significant Hill sphere relative to it's size. I am going to hope to use an effect similar to Ballistic capture to regain the spirals position after firing. I do not very well understand this, so I will struggle and fail. If I do then perhaps someone else will find a way.

I am not sure where the starting position should be, but the effect I want is to eject a load down while the spiral slide is between the world and the sun. (Vastly closer to the world.

The load drops sunward, but the spiral slide moves to a higher orbit around Ceres and perhaps even to escape velocity in front of Ceres. It is moving faster ahead of Ceres, but the gravity of Ceres is pulling on it, and so taking inertia from the spiral Slide. Ceres is there for speeding up and may rob it of some of it's added speed.

That may need some work.

What if the spiral were attached to a space elevator which would be attached to Ceres?

Well, I think my brain is full again. I think that it could be obvious that not only could you drop a load down a spinning spiral, but the space elevator could be imparting spin from Ceres itself.

And to top it off you could put some sort of mass driver method onto it to further accelerate the loads.

If I have been stupid in this, please let me know as I do not which to remain stupid about anything I got wrong.

One nice thing about connecting the spiral to a space elevator is that you then do not need to use rocket propulsion to spin it, you can use motors.

But of course, this is going to require a very sturdy space elevator. But the task of a space elevator for Ceres or 10 Hygiea or the like will be very much easier than for Earth or Mars.

I need to step away and perhaps come back to it later.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2026-07-03 13:03:06)

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#5 2026-07-04 06:54:48

Void: Member; Registered: 2011-12-29; Posts: 9,641

Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)

So, it was fun to ponder a sort of mass driver involving spirals. Over time that might have application and be developed.

But I have to admit that Methane-Thermal might be a "Best-Booster" method.

My interest in the "Methane-Thermal" process started when reading an article about "Nuclear-Methane-Thermal" engines for Starship.

I want a booster that does not return to Ceres or 10 Hygiea. A booster section might be permanently attached to an AquaWorld. It might be rather a simple tank as durable as the tank for Starship. It would get filled from a depot quickly. It might have a Carbon/Iron layer over the tank, to insulate it a bit and to protect from impactors. It is notable that the suns unamplified power at the ~3 AU distance is much lower, so boiloff will be slower.

I can mention 4 energy sources for an engine for this.
1) Nuclear-Thermal.
2) Nuclear-Electric-Thermal/Plasma.
3) Solar-Electric-Thermal/Plasma.
4) Initiating Laser.

I am going to imagine 4) Initiating Laser & 3) Solar-Electric-Thermal/Plasma. (Perhaps also Nuclear-Electric-Thermal/Plasma.

OK, this would be a mass production process in the asteroid belt to make something like this:

I do not want to bring parts back to the Orbital Launch Site.

It is to be noted that most of the fluids in the device are Water and Methane. So, the probability for a giant chemical explosion is low.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket
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Nuclear Methane Rocket Propulsion
A nuclear methane rocket is a type of nuclear thermal rocket (NTR) that uses methane as the working fluid instead of the more common liquid hydrogen. In an NTR, a nuclear fission reactor heats the propellant to very high temperatures, turning it into a high‑velocity gas that is expelled through a nozzle to produce thrust Wikipedia.
How it works
Nuclear heat source: A fission reactor (or, in future concepts, a fusion reactor) generates heat.
Propellant: Methane (CH₄) is pumped through the reactor core, where it is heated to thousands of degrees.
Expansion and thrust: The hot methane expands through a nozzle, producing high exhaust velocity and thrust.
Advantages over chemical rockets: Methane offers higher density than hydrogen, allowing for more propellant stored in a given volume, which can improve performance and reduce staging needs Wikipedia.
Why methane?
High performance: Methane has a high specific impulse (Isp) when heated to extreme temperatures, potentially exceeding that of hydrogen‑based NTRs.
Storage and handling: Methane is easier to store and handle than liquid hydrogen, which requires cryogenic temperatures.
Compatibility with existing systems: Methane is already used in some chemical rockets (e.g., SpaceX’s Raptor engine), so infrastructure and fueling systems may be more familiar.
Nuclear thermal propulsion context
Nuclear thermal rockets have been studied since the 1950s, with the goal of doubling or tripling payload capacity compared to chemical rockets by using external nuclear heat instead of internal chemical energy Wikipedia. NASA’s Space Nuclear Propulsion (SNP) program is exploring both nuclear thermal and nuclear electric systems for faster Moon–Mars missions NASA.
Current status
Hydrogen‑based NTRs have been tested on the ground, but no NTR has flown yet Wikipedia.
Methane NTRs are still in the conceptual and early design phase. They are being considered as a potential next step in NTR development, especially for missions where propellant density and handling matter.
NASA and ESA are advancing NTR concepts, but methane‑specific designs are not yet in active flight testing.
Potential benefits
Faster transit times to Mars and beyond compared to chemical rockets.
Higher payload fractions due to improved propellant efficiency.
Reduced staging for some mission profiles, simplifying spacecraft design.
In short, a nuclear methane rocket combines the high energy density of nuclear thermal propulsion with the practicality of methane as a propellant, offering a promising path toward faster, more efficient deep‑space travel.

So, you could use direct nuclear thermal and I am not saying no to it, but I imagine first boost to heat methane might be able to use lasers from orbital power stations.

Then, it would be wise to have at least one Nuclear-Electric device on board, so you might convert over to process the Methane Boil-Off in a plasma thruster.

You would probably rise to the edge of the Hill sphere of Ceres and then exit the Hill sphere, in a direction retrograde to the orbit of Ceres around the Sun.

Then you would deploy your solar energy devices, (Mirrors, Etc, ???)

So, after exiting Ceres you would naturally drop sunward to some amount. Over time solar would become more and more important.

When you ran out of Methane, I would hope that then Water could be the working fluid for thrust all the way then to a destination, which could be a stony or metallic asteroid that ideally crosses the Belt, Mars, Earth, one, two, or three of those.

Itokawa may be of interest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25143_Itokawa
Quote:

Aphelion 1.6951 AU
Perihelion 0.9532 AU

Quote:

Inclination 1.6214°

Image Quote:
Quote:

Dimensions 535 m × 294 m × 209 m[4]
Mean diameter 313 m[5]
330 m[3]
350 m[6][7]
Mass (3.51±0.105)×1010 kg[4]
(3.58±0.18)×1010 kg[8]
Mean density 1.9±0.13 g/cm3[4]
1.95±0.14 g/cm3[8]

So, it is a little one, but you could make a heck of a spaceship out of it. I think Japan thought of that.

Image Quote:
Quote:

Animation of asteroid 25143 Itokawa's orbit: Mars(Red) · Itokawa(Green) · Earth(Blue) · Sun(Yellow)

* I think it would be good to consider this to be irrigating the inner solar system with more outer world volatiles.

Spaceships could "Island Hop", in the inner solar system, at least out to the Asteroid Belt.

Also, these asteroids on average will receive more solar energy than the Asteroids in the Main Belt and the Trojans.

Eros might receive more than one delivery device.

When arriving the Methane tank if retained could be converted into useful space using raw materials from Eros.

Quote:

In 2000, it was selected as the target of Japan's Hayabusa mission. The probe arrived in the vicinity of Itokawa on 12 September 2005 and initially "parked" in an asteroid–Sun line at 20 km (12 mi), and later 7 km (4.3 mi), from the asteroid (Itokawa's gravity was too weak to provide an orbit, so the spacecraft adjusted its orbit around the Sun until it matched the asteroid's). Hayabusa landed on 20 November for thirty minutes, but it failed to operate a device designed to collect soil samples. On 25 November, a second landing and sampling sequence was attempted. The sample capsule was returned to Earth and landed at Woomera,

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 3516308120
Quote:

Evidence for OH or H2O on the surface of 433 Eros and 1036 Ganymed
Author links open overlay panelAndrew S. Rivkin a 1
, Ellen S. Howell b, Joshua P. Emery c, Jessica Sunshine d

So, I am expecting some OH and water on Itokawa as well.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aav8106
Quote:

Abstract
We performed the first measurements of hydrogen isotopic composition and water content in nominally anhydrous minerals collected by the Hayabusa mission from the S-type asteroid Itokawa. The hydrogen isotopic composition (δD) of the measured pyroxene grains is −79 to −53‰, which is indistinguishable from that in chondritic meteorites, achondrites, and terrestrial rocks. Itokawa minerals contain water contents of 698 to 988 parts per million (ppm) weight, after correcting for water loss during parent body processes and impact events that elevated the temperature of the parent body. We infer that the Bulk Silicate Itokawa parent body originally had 160 to 510 ppm water. Asteroids like Itokawa that formed interior to the snow line could therefore have been a potential source of water (up to 0.5 Earth’s oceans) during the formation of Earth and other terrestrial planets.

Quote:

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Water on Asteroid Itokawa
Asteroid 25143 Itokawa — a peanut-shaped S-type near-Earth asteroid — contains evidence of past water and even ancient hydrated minerals that reveal its history.
Evidence of Water
The Hayabusa mission collected over 1,500 dust particles from Itokawa’s surface in 2005, and subsequent laboratory analyses showed that its minerals contain water in the range of 698–988 parts per million (ppm) by weight pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. After correcting for water loss during metamorphism and impacts, scientists infer that the asteroid’s parent body originally had 160–510 ppm water pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. This is far less than Earth’s crustal water (15,000–20,000 ppm), but significant for an S-type asteroid.
Origin and Evolution
Itokawa formed interior to the snow line in the early solar system, where temperatures were too warm for water ice to persist. The water present was likely D-poor water ice incorporated during formation, later metamorphosed and dehydrated on the parent body pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov. The asteroid’s rubble-pile structure suggests it was built from smaller fragments, possibly mixed through impacts, and evolved via late-stage hydration pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.
Significance
While Itokawa itself is not a reservoir of liquid water today, its hydrated minerals and isotopic composition (δD values matching chondritic meteorites and terrestrial rocks) indicate it once interacted with water. This supports models of how volatile-rich asteroids could have contributed water to the early Earth and other terrestrial planets pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.
In summary: Itokawa does not currently have liquid water, but its minerals preserve a record of ancient, low-abundance water that existed on its parent body, offering clues to the early solar system’s water cycle.

So, in the asteroid belt, at about =>3.0 AU massive amounts of water ice and probably Carbon, maybe Nitrogen is available.

At 2.1 AU, about 40% of the asteroids are Carbonaceous. So it may be possible to start an "Irrigation Process" from 2.1 AU, where I would expect some of the asteroids to be Carbonaceous, and then expand out to the outer parts of the Asteroid Belt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_belt
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Carbonaceous Composition in the Main Asteroid Belt
The main asteroid belt — the region between Mars and Jupiter — contains a mix of asteroid types, with carbonaceous (C-type) asteroids being the most common in its outer regions.
Overall distribution
About 75% of all known asteroids are C-type, making them the dominant class in the belt Science Mission Directorate.
These are dark, carbon-rich bodies with albedos (reflectivity) less than 0.10, similar to coal or soot Science Mission Directorate.
They are chemically similar to carbonaceous chondrite meteorites found on Earth European Space Agency+1.
Regional variation
In the outer belt (around 3.0–3.5 AU from the Sun), over 80% of asteroids are C-type European Space Agency.
In the inner belt (around 2.8 AU), the proportion drops to about 40% C-type, with the rest being silicate-rich (S-type) and metallic (M-type) asteroids European Space Agency.
Why the variation?
The difference is due to temperature gradients during the Solar System’s formation.
Outer belt: Cooler temperatures allowed volatile compounds like water and organic carbon to remain, preserving carbon-rich material.
Inner belt: Higher temperatures drove off volatiles, leaving behind silicate and metal-rich bodies.
Summary table:
Belt Region Distance from Sun % C-type Asteroids
Dominant Composition
Outer belt ~3.0–3.5 AU >80%
Carbonaceous (C-type)
Inner belt ~2.8 AU ~40%
Mixed (C, S, M types)
In short: The main asteroid belt is dominated by carbonaceous asteroids, especially in its outer regions, with C-type making up the majority of known asteroids overall European Space Agency+1.

The "Irrigation Process" might expand outward to involve objects beyond the asteroid belt.

If you have almost infinite robot labor and almost infinite energy, then with patience, an irrigation of many solar system objects may be possible.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2026-07-04 08:11:27)

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#6 2026-07-04 08:37:13

Void: Member; Registered: 2011-12-29; Posts: 9,641

Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)

This is an amendment to the just prior post.

If you can irrigate a "Crosser" or "Grazer" asteroid, then you might convert it to a spaceship. If you convert it to a spaceship you may have it fly into the orbit of Mars.

While some have considered massive collisions to manipulate Mars, I think that if you flew such a spaceship into orbit of Mars and converted it into solar power collection, then you could beam power to Mars, and in processing raw materials may eject gasses such as Oxygen into the atmosphere of Mars.

If you Oxygen ejection was done optimally, the Oxygen would also serve as reaction gas before becoming part of the atmosphere of Mars.

At least some Oxygen might be conserved to the atmosphere of Mars that way.

So, after Phobos and Demos have been consumed, you could keep bringing in new moons to consume.

Ending Pending

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#7 Yesterday 08:20:52

Void: Member; Registered: 2011-12-29; Posts: 9,641

Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)

I think the current drift of things suggests that space expansion is Moon>Mars/Phobos/Deimos>Asteroid Belt 2.1 AU>Asteroid Belt ~3 AU.

That could be revised subject to future history, political events, Technological Twists.

I think that the Moon does not have the proper resources to make one. The Earth has too much gravity. The Asteroids are far away.

But perhaps it could be experimented with using Mars/Phobos/Deimos. We know that Mars itself has everything needed. But it has a significant gravity well. I would like to limit the contribution of Mars down to Water or even better Hydrogen.

To do that then the two little moons Phobos and Deimos have to have appropriate resources.

My computer these days when online seems to want to offer me guidance, so I will provoke it and see what I get.

Query: "Phyto silicates on Phobos?"
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Phytosilicates on Phobos
There is no confirmed detection of phytosilicates on Phobos in current scientific data. Phytosilicates are a class of clay minerals (e.g., kaolinite, smectites) that form in the presence of water and are typically associated with aqueous alteration processes on planetary surfaces. They are common in Mars’ ancient terrains and in some asteroids, but no spectroscopic or compositional measurements from Phobos have identified them.
Current knowledge of Phobos’ composition
Bulk density: ~1.86 g/cm³, similar to C-type asteroids, suggesting a carbonaceous, low-albedo surface dominated by silicate minerals and carbon-rich materials Wikipedia.
Spectral units: HiRISE and other orbital data show two main spectral units — a blue unit (mostly in Stickney crater) and a red unit (covering most of the surface) Frontiers. The red unit is spectrally similar to carbonaceous chondrites, while the blue unit may have a slightly different composition.
Regolith properties: Phobos regolith is highly porous, with macro- and micro-porosity affecting its reflectance in visible–near-infrared wavelengths Archive ouverte HAL. Simulants of Phobos regolith are used to model these properties, but they do not show phytosilicate absorption features.
Why phytosilicates are unlikely on Phobos
Low albedo and spectral signature: Phobos’ surface is very dark (albedo ~0.07) and lacks the hydration bands (e.g., ~3 μm) that phytosilicates show in spectra Wikipedia.
Origin scenarios: Phobos may be a captured asteroid or re-accreted Martian ejecta. If it is a captured body, it likely came from the outer Solar System, where phytosilicate formation is rare. If it formed from Martian impacts, it would have been exposed to Mars’ water-rich past, but its current surface is heavily altered by space weathering and micrometeorite bombardment, erasing any original phytosilicate signatures.
No in situ confirmation: All current data are remote-sensing; no sample return has been attempted. Without direct analysis, the presence of phytosilicates remains speculative.
Research and simulants
Phobos simulants (e.g., Phobos-1C, PCA-1, PGI-1) are used to study regolith properties, but they are designed to match bulk spectral and physical characteristics, not to reproduce phytosilicate-bearing materials Frontiers. These simulants help interpret Phobos’ surface but do not confirm or rule out phytosilicate presence.
Conclusion: Based on current observations, Phobos does not appear to contain phytosilicates. Any such minerals would require direct in situ analysis, which is not yet available. Future missions, especially sample return, could confirm or refute their presence.

Query: "Phyto silicates on Deimos?"
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Phytosilicates on Deimos
Current spectroscopic data from Deimos do not show clear evidence for phytosilicates — the hydrated silicate minerals (e.g., kaolinite, smectite) that form in the presence of water and are common in terrestrial and some asteroidal regoliths.
Spectral observations
Recent high-resolution near-infrared spectroscopy of Deimos, including work from the NASA Infrared Telescope Facility and other studies, has searched for diagnostic absorption bands of hydrated minerals such as phytosilicates. These minerals typically have distinct OH-stretch and lattice water features in the 3–4μm range. However, Deimos’ spectra are dominated by low, flat reflectance in the visible and near-infrared, with no strong, unambiguous hydrated band features NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)+1. This is consistent with a carbonaceous chondrite-like composition, which is also inferred for Phobos NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)+1.
Possible explanations for the absence of phytosilicates
Low water content: The lack of strong OH bands suggests minimal surface water or hydrated minerals.
Space weathering effects: Laboratory and observational studies suggest that dark, amorphous carbon and Fe–S–Fe⁰ materials may be responsible for the observed spectral slope, potentially masking or replacing hydrated mineral signatures Oxford Academic.
Regolith maturation: Prolonged exposure to space radiation and micrometeorite impacts can alter or destroy hydrated minerals, leaving behind space-weathered regolith Lunar and Planetary Institute.
Formation history: If Deimos formed from a carbonaceous chondrite parent body, it may have experienced little to no aqueous alteration, so phytosilicates would not have formed in situ Lunar and Planetary Institute.
Comparison with Phobos
Phobos also shows no strong hydrated bands, but some studies have detected weak hydrated features in certain regions, possibly due to local regolith maturation or small-scale variations Lunar and Planetary Institute. Deimos, being smaller and farther from Mars, may have experienced even less regolith processing, but its spectra remain consistent with a dry, space-weathered surface.
Conclusion
Based on current data, phytosilicates are not detected on Deimos. The surface composition is best explained by a carbonaceous chondrite-like material, possibly with dark, space-weathered components, and little to no aqueous alteration. Future missions like JAXA’s MMX, with the MIRS spectrometer, will provide higher-resolution data to confirm or refine these interpretations Archive ouverte HAL+1.

Is there Carbon in Phobos or Deimos?
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Yes — both Phobos and Deimos contain carbon, though it is not in the form of free elemental carbon like graphite or diamond, but rather as part of dark, carbon-rich materials on their surfaces.
Spectroscopic observations from NASA’s Compact Reconnaissance Imaging Spectrometer for Mars (CRISM) have detected an absorption feature at about 0.65micrometers on the “red” unit of Phobos and on Deimos. This feature is consistent with the presence of Fe-bearing phyllosilicates and/or graphite, both of which contain carbon NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS). The spectral properties of these moons are also similar to those of CM-type carbonaceous chondrite asteroids, which are known to contain significant amounts of carbon in the form of organic compounds and carbonaceous minerals NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)+1.
Further studies suggest that the dark surface components could include amorphous carbon and other carbon-bearing materials produced by space weathering, such as iron- and iron sulfide-bearing phases Oxford Academic. These dark materials are thought to be responsible for the reduced hydrated band observed on the moons without requiring hydration of an anhydrous surface Oxford Academic.
In summary:
Phobos and Deimos have carbon in the form of graphite, phyllosilicates, and possibly amorphous carbon.
The carbon is part of their dark, carbonaceous chondrite-like surface composition.
The exact form and distribution of carbon are still under study, but spectroscopic and mineralogical data strongly indicate its presence.

So that is a very big win if there really is Carbon as we know that Oxygen is also present so a fuel of CO and Oxidizer of O2 is then avaiable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide
Quote:

Melting point −205.02 °C (−337.04 °F; 68.13 K)
Boiling point −191.5 °C (−312.7 °F; 81.6 K)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane
Quote:

Melting point −182.456 °C (−296.421 °F; 90.694 K)[3]
Boiling point −161.49 °C (−258.68 °F; 111.66 K)[4]

So, here is a question, could you mix the two fluids at say =188 degrees C?
And not get a chemical reaction?
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Mixing Liquid Carbon Monoxide and Liquid Methane
Mixing liquid carbon monoxide (CO) and liquid methane (CH₄) is extremely hazardous and should never be attempted without specialized, controlled conditions and proper safety measures.
1. Combustion and Explosion Risk
Both CO and CH₄ are flammable gases. CO is a colorless, odorless gas that burns in air to produce carbon dioxide and heat, while CH₄ is a hydrocarbon that burns to produce CO₂, water vapor, and significant heat. When mixed, they can form a combustible mixture that ignites easily if exposed to an ignition source, leading to rapid flame spread, explosion, or fire Springer. The mixture’s lower explosive limit (LEL) and upper explosive limit (UEL) depend on the proportions, but both gases are well within flammable ranges.
2. Toxicity
CO is highly toxic — it binds to hemoglobin in the blood, reducing oxygen delivery to tissues. Even small amounts can be dangerous, and in a mixture with methane, the risk of CO exposure is amplified. Methane itself is not toxic in normal concentrations but can displace oxygen, causing asphyxiation in confined spaces Airgas.
3. Physical and Chemical Incompatibility
While CO and CH₄ are both gases, they are not considered “incompatible” in the sense of violent chemical reaction at room temperature, but their combustibility and toxicity make them dangerous together. In laboratory safety lists, methane is listed as incompatible with chlorine and other oxidizers, but CO is not explicitly listed as incompatible with methane — however, the hazard is primarily due to flammability and toxicity rather than a direct chemical reaction Grand Valley State University+1.
4. Storage and Handling Considerations
Segregation: Store CO and CH₄ in separate, compatible containers away from ignition sources.
Ventilation: Use in well-ventilated areas to prevent accumulation.
Detection: Use gas detectors for CO and methane, as both are odorless.
Equipment: Use only equipment rated for the gases’ pressures and materials of construction.
No mixing: Avoid mixing in open systems; if necessary, do so in a closed, controlled environment with proper safety protocols.
5. Summary of Hazards
Flammability: Both gases are combustible; mixture can ignite easily.
Toxicity: CO is poisonous; methane can cause asphyxiation.
Explosion risk: Combustible mixture in confined space.
No beneficial reaction: No known safe or useful chemical reaction between them under normal conditions.
Bottom line: Mixing liquid CO and liquid methane is not safe and can lead to fire, explosion, or poisoning. If you need to work with both, do so separately, in well-ventilated areas, with proper detection and suppression systems, and only under expert supervision.

I think I may have a beneficial use. by injecting Methane into the CO fuel, Hydrogen molecules may increase the thrust. Just a guess.

1) Premix the liquids. Might be most troublesome. Then react with Oxygen in a typical type of rocket engine.
2) Have two fuel preburner(s), and one Oxygen preburner.

So more complex than a Raptor Engine. However, you might dump CO/O2 burned gas overboard using that combustion to drive the turbine pumps for the main rocket event. That would be a little simpler than to do what Raptor does. (Proper terminology needed).

So, if we presume that the two moons have Carbon but no Hydrogen, either Methane or Hydrogen could be brought up from Mars. In either case then the two fuels CO, and Methane could be created in orbit. Also, the Oxygen could be created in orbit.

My presumption is that if you injected a bit of Methane into the burning of CO you might get a better performance. (If you could).

>>>>>>>>>

Now, I wonder if you could go Nuclear or Plasma with such a mix, CO and Methane?
Quote:

Could Liquid Carbon Monoxide be used in a Nuclear Thermal Rocket?

So, the answer is yes, but as expected it would not perform as well as Hydrogen. It might also soot up.

So, I am thinking that a pinch of Hydrogen in Methane added (Or another hydrocarbon), might improve results.

I got no answer for this query: "Could a Mixture of Liquid Carbon Monoxide and Methane be used in a Nuclear Thermal Rocket?"

So, I think two processes each with three sub-divisions may be possible to try.

A) Gas Phase Thrusters.
1) Nuclear Thermal (Unlikely)
2) Nuclear Electric (Maybe)
3) Solar Electric (Maybe)

B) Liquid Phase Thrusters.
1) Nuclear Thermal (Maybe)
2) Nuclear Electric (Maybe)
3) Solar Electric (Maybe)

If Carbon Soot is a problem, then maybe A-2, A-3, B-2, B-3 are more usable. If you had multiple thrusters, it might be possible to clean them periodically in flight.

So, the point is if Phobos and/or Deimos do have significant Carbon, but no Hydrogen, water or Hydrogen could be brought up from Mars to make fuels. Ideally it would be Hydrogen.

So, to access asteroids, you would then already have a process to produce CO from Carbonaceous Asteroids, and it may be that Carbonaceous may also have water. So, the process that would deliver you from Mars orbit to an asteroid might be replicated if your target was Carbonacious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M … or_planets

These are all Mars crossers and seem to have a Perihelion near to Earth: (I scanned about 1/4 to 1/3 of the first part of the list).

Here is a first candidate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1580_Betulia
Quote:

1580 Betulia, provisional designation 1950 KA, is an eccentric, carbonaceous asteroid, classified as near-Earth object of the Amor group, approximately 4.2 kilometers in diameter. It was discovered on 22 May 1950, by South African astronomer Ernest Johnson at the Union Observatory in Johannesburg.[3] The asteroid was named for Betulia Toro, wife of astronomer Samuel Herrick.[2]
Orbit and classification
Betulia orbits the Sun at a distance of 1.1–3.3 AU once every 3 years and 3 months (1,190 days). Its orbit has an eccentricity of 0.49 and an inclination of 52° with respect to the ecliptic.[1] The body's observation arc begins with its official discovery observation at Johannesburg in 1950.[3]

The inclination is not good, but perhaps that can be corrected over time or by a spaceship at Aphelion. Pretty expensive to do so though, I expect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3552_Don_Quixote
A good size, a possible extinct comet, but goes further out per AU than I might like. CO2 detected?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5370_Taranis
Another suspected dormant comet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(6178)_1986_DA
Metal, so probably cannot refuel CO or CH4. But the orbit is rather good.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Outer Grazers may be more suitable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/132_Aethra
Metal, but its orbit looks rather good, except inclination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1011_Laodamia
Stony but the orbit and inclination are very good relative to others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1235_Schorria
Carbonaceous! This one may go just a little into the Main belt and then down somewhere near Mars.
Quote:

1235 Schorria (prov. designation: 1931 UJ), is a Hungaria asteroid, sizable Mars-crosser, and exceptionally slow rotator from the inner region of the asteroid belt. The carbonaceous C-type asteroid has an outstandingly long rotation period of 1265 hours (7.5 weeks) and measures approximately 5.5 kilometers (3.4 miles) kilometers in diameter. It was discovered by Karl Reinmuth at Heidelberg Observatory in southwest Germany on 18 October 1931,[1] and named after German astronomer Richard Schorr (1867–1951).[2]
Orbit and classification
Schorria is a Mars-crossing member of the Hungaria asteroids, which form the innermost dense concentration of asteroids in the Solar System. It orbits the Sun in the inner main-belt at a distance of 1.6–2.2 AU once every 2 years and 8 months (964 days; semi-major axis of 1.91 AU). Its orbit has an eccentricity of 0.15 and an inclination of 25° with respect to the ecliptic.[3] The body's observation arc begins at Heidelberg two weeks after its official discovery observation, as no precoveries were taken, and no prior identifications were made.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1508_Kemi
Carbonaceous, and a larger asteroid.
Quote:

1508 Kemi (provisional designation 1938 UP) is an eccentric, carbonaceous asteroid and one of the largest Mars-crossers, approximately 17 kilometers in diameter. Discovered by Heikki Alikoski at Turku Observatory in 1938,[3] the asteroid was later named after the Finnish town of Kemi and the Kemi River.[2]
Orbit and classification
Kemi is a Mars-crossing asteroid as it crosses the orbit of Mars at 1.666 AU. Because of its high inclination, it has been grouped with the Pallas family (801), an asteroid family of bright carbonaceous asteroids, as well as with the "Phaethon group", despite its untypical spectrum.[14][15]

*A bit of concern is a high inclination.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well, that is just a sample.

If Mars/Phobos/Deimos can serve to refill an expedition to a suitable Carbonaceous Asteroid, which comes close to Mars and yet goes into the asteroid belt, that asteroid might turn into a refilling station as well.

From then when in the Asteroid belt it might be possible to find a Carbonaceous asteroid with a more circular orbit to establish yet another refilling situation.

This then might give access to valuable asteroids of an "M" Type as well.

At the point that Ceres and 10 Hygea and the like could be accessed, then you might obtain vast resources of water and Carbon which could fuel methods to bring materials back to Mars and maybe Earth.

*But it may be possible to fuel electric ships with metal fuels, to complete the expansion.

Ending Pending

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#8 Yesterday 16:51:38

Void: Member; Registered: 2011-12-29; Posts: 9,641

Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)

I could be irresponsible and go out since my cold is 5-6 days old, but I think I will stay housebound at least today.

Therefore running out of things to do. So, I will chase the materials in this topic further.

Space Elevators:
Ceres: https://www.wionews.com/science/scienti … 0405225668 Quote:

30,000 km-long space elevator proposed on Ceres can solve two problems
Anamica Singh
Edited By Anamica Singh
Published: Jun 20, 2025, 13:20 IST | Updated: Jun 20, 2025, 13:20 IST

I am not naturally comfortable with Space Elevators, but if it is a technology to learn into, then Ceres and some asteroids smaller than it may be good nurseries to develop the technology.

Because it is an apparently chemically similar object and having a smaller size and inclination, I have thought that 10 Hygea might be an ever better bet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Hygiea
Quote:

Hygiea has a nearly spherical shape, with two known craters about 100 and 180 km (62 and 112 mi) in diameter. Because of its shape and large size, some researchers consider Hygiea a possible dwarf planet. Hygiea has a dark, carbonaceous surface consisting of hydrated and ammoniated silicate minerals, with carbonates and water ice. Hygiea's subsurface likely contains a large fraction of water ice. These characteristics make Hygiea very similar to the main-belt dwarf planet Ceres, which suggests the two objects have similar origins and evolutionary histories.[12]: 2

Query: "How Much would I weigh on Ceres?"

I will look further as I am not sure I like this answer:

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To calculate how much you would weigh on Ceres, you can use the following information:
Ceres has a gravitational force of about 0.27 times that of Earth.
To find your weight on Ceres, multiply your Earth weight by 0.27. For example, if you weigh 150 pounds on Earth, you would weigh approximately 40.5 pounds on Ceres
starlighttools.org
starlighttools.org
+1
.
You can also use online calculators to easily find your weight on Ceres by entering your Earth weight
starlighttools.org
starlighttools.org
.

* So the just previous information about weight on Ceres looks false to me and shows that you cant always trust the feedback you migh get.

OK, I trust this far more: https://www.webconversiononline.com/cal … anet=ceres Quote:

Weight 40 pound on Earth will weight 1.1009 pound on Ceres
On the other hand weight 40 pound on Ceres will weight 1,453.3333 pound on Earth
Note: Ceres is a dwarf planet in our solar system

OK, this might be true, it certainly looks somewhat believable. Query: "What is the gravity of Ceres and 10 Hygiea?"
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Gravity of Ceres and 10 Hygiea
Ceres has an equatorial surface gravity of about 0.284m/s² (about 0.029g of Earth’s gravity) Wikipedia. This is due to its large size for an asteroid — with a mean radius of ~469.7km and a mass of ~9.38×10²⁰kg — but still far less than Earth’s gravity.
10 Hygiea, the fourth-largest asteroid in the main belt, has an equatorial surface gravity of about 0.12m/s² Wikipedia. Its smaller mass (about 8.74×10¹⁹kg) and lower density (≈2.06g/cm³) result in weaker surface gravity compared to Ceres.
Comparison
Ceres gravity: 0.284m/s² (0.029g)
Hygiea gravity: 0.12m/s² (≈0.012g)
This means Ceres’ gravity is roughly 2.4 times stronger than Hygiea’s at their equators. Both are far weaker than Earth’s gravity (9.8m/s²), reflecting their small sizes and low masses.

So, inclination?
What is the Inclination of Mars? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars
Quote:

Epoch J2000
Aphelion 249261000 km
(1.66621 AU)[2]
Perihelion 206650000 km
(1.3814 AU)[2]
Inclination
1.850° to ecliptic
5.65° to Sun's equator
1.63° to invariable plane[4]

Earth? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth
Quote:

Inclination
7.155° – Sun's equator;
1.57869° – invariable plane;[5]
0.00005° – J2000 ecliptic

Ceres? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceres_(dwarf_planet)
Quote:

Aphelion 2.98 AU (446 million km)
Perihelion 2.55 AU (381 million km)
Inclination
10.6° to ecliptic
9.20° to invariable plane[4]

10 Hygiea? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Hygiea
Quote:

Aphelion 3.488 AU (522 million km)
Perihelion 2.799 AU (419 million km)
Inclination 3.832° to ecliptic

As it happens 16 Psyche numbers seem to resemble those of 10 Hygiea a bit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Psyche
Quote:

Aphelion 3.32 AU (497 million km)
Perihelion 2.53 AU (378 million km)
inclination 3.097°

I am guessing that I do not understand the complexity of Inclination as well as I should, but this is a starting point. For inclination both 10 Hygiea and 16 Psyche look better than Ceres as far as I can tell.

Bot 10 Hygiea and 16 Psyche are at the approximately 3.0 AU distance from the sun. Ceres is slightly better at about 2.7 AU from the sun.

Query: "How Much would I weigh on 16 Psyche?" (Not sure I trust the results).
Quote:

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Weight on 16 Psyche
If you weighed 100 kg on Earth, you would weigh about 14.4 kg on 16 Psyche — roughly 14% of your Earth weight Wikipedia.
Why so little?
16 Psyche is a large M‑type asteroid with a mean diameter of about 222 km and a mass of roughly 2.29 × 10¹⁹ kg Wikipedia. Its surface gravity is only about 0.144 m/s², compared to Earth’s 9.81 m/s². This means the gravitational pull is much weaker, so your weight drops proportionally.
How the calculation works
Weight = mass × gravity
On Earth: 100 kg × 9.81 m/s² = 981 N (about 100 kg force)
On 16 Psyche: 100 kg × 0.144 m/s² ≈ 14.4 N (about 14.4 kg force)
Extra facts
Escape velocity from 16 Psyche is about 180 m/s Wikipedia, which is much lower than Earth’s 11.2 km/s.
Its low gravity means you could jump much higher than on Earth, but you’d still need to account for its irregular shape and lack of atmosphere.
In short: On 16 Psyche, you’d feel like you were on a very low‑gravity world — about 1/7th the gravity of Earth, but still enough to keep you from floating away. Science Mission Directorate

So that would be Moon similar gravity if it is as is said above.

>>>>>>>>>>>

So, the idea might be to thread the needle Earth>Moon>Mars/Phobos/Demos>Crossing Asteroids>10 Hygiea & 16 Psyche.
This particular topic is water oriented but with nuclear power metal propellants which could be obtained many places might work as well.

It Could be a "Twofer".

The beginnings of space elevator technology might be birthed on 10 Hygiea, I think. I would be looking for a pipe or wick type.

Lasers could be used to condition the temperature of the space elevator to allow gasses or ions to pass upward, perhaps.

In Earth soil, water Ions (+) can be drawn towards an (-) Cathode in the soil.

So, if you could fire electron beams at the top of the space elevator (Wick), you might be able to make (Holes, (Ions+) up the wick to be collected at the top.

Query:

Conducting positive ions on a electrodynamic space tether?

Quote:

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Conducting Positive Ions in an Electrodynamic Space Tether
In an electrodynamic tether (EDT), the conductive wire moves through a planetary magnetic field, generating a motional electromotive force (EMF) across its length. This EMF can drive a current if the tether is connected to an external circuit, typically through ionospheric plasma MIT OpenCourseWare+1.
How Current Flows in an EDT
Electron collection: At one end of the tether (often the “anode” in the circuit), ionospheric electrons are collected. These electrons flow through the tether and any load resistance.
Current completion: To complete the circuit, positive ions from the surrounding plasma must be collected at the other end (the “cathode”) or emitted back into the plasma HandWiki.
Ion collection/emission:
Collection: Positive ions from the plasma are attracted to the cathode end of the tether, neutralizing the negative charge there. This maintains the circuit and allows continuous current flow.
Emission: In some designs, a cathode (e.g., thermionic, field emission, or hollow cathode) emits electrons into the plasma, which are then neutralized by positive ions, completing the circuit HandWiki.
Role of Positive Ions
Neutralization: Positive ions help maintain charge balance in the plasma sheath at the cathode end, preventing excessive negative charge buildup that could cause arcing or breakdown.
Current return path: In some configurations, positive ions flow from the plasma into the tether at the cathode, completing the current loop back to the load HandWiki.
Space charge control: The density and velocity of positive ions affect the plasma sheath potential, which in turn influences the effective voltage and current in the tether.
Practical Considerations
Plasma environment: The ionospheric plasma must have sufficient density and mobility of positive ions to support the required current without excessive sheath potentials MIT OpenCourseWare.
Cathode technology: The choice of cathode (thermionic, field emission, hollow cathode) determines how efficiently electrons are emitted and how positive ions are neutralized HandWiki.
System design: The geometry of the tether, its orientation relative to the magnetic field, and the plasma density all affect ion collection efficiency and overall power generation or propulsion performance Wikipedia.
In summary: In an electrodynamic tether, positive ions are essential for completing the current loop by either being collected at the cathode end or neutralizing emitted electrons. This process maintains the circuit, enables continuous operation, and is critical for both power generation and propulsion applications MIT OpenCourseWare+2.

So, my intention would be to try to convey Ions+ up the elevator as a wick type and to collect them at the top. Water vapor might work but I suspect that Methane, Ammonia, and CO might work better. Perhaps there are others.

This would then support a refilling station for large ships in orbit.

Then you might get into Mass Drivers to move solids. I am hoping that at some stage a Neumann Drive or Magdrive could project metals at a receiver and that upon impact, a vacuum welding event would occur. However, I do not know if that ejected plume can be focused enough.

Then finally I want a low gravity platform where a robotic community can mass produce very large spacecraft that can take off from it's surface and be refilled in orbit, to conduct missions to dry asteroids that are terrestrial crossers, and also perhaps Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

My presumption is that somewhere in the asteroid belt will be large amounts of Uranium or Thorium, but I also support the building of very large power stations that use very large concentrating mirrors. These then could project power to 10 Hygiea, and 16 Pshche.

Ending Pending

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#9 Today 00:39:26

Void: Member; Registered: 2011-12-29; Posts: 9,641

Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)

I have done a lot of posting here yesterday and today.

I do think that 10 Hygiea would be a great place to do first experiments with space elevators. If it could work then other worlds could follow, Ceres, Luna, Mars perhaps.

But simple rocket engines might do quite a lot on 10 Hygiea.

Query: What is the wet Mass of Starship Version 3, excluding the super heavy?
Quote:

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Wet Mass of Starship Version 3 (Excluding Super Heavy)
For Starship Version 3 (Block 3), the wet mass — the total mass of the spacecraft stage including propellant — is estimated to be about 5,300 metric tons when fully fueled newspaceeconomy.ca. This figure includes the Starship’s structure, systems, and ~1,800ton of liquid methane/liquid oxygen propellant, but excludes the Super Heavy booster.
If you want the dry mass (structure and systems without propellant), independent estimates place it around ~75tons
www.easytool.me. This means the propellant mass is roughly ~1,725tons.
Summary:
Wet mass (Starship only, no Super Heavy): ~5,300t newspaceeconomy.ca
Dry mass (Starship only): ~75t www.easytool.me
Propellant mass (Starship only): ~1,800t www.easytool.me
These numbers are based on SpaceX’s published V3 design specs and independent analysis, and they represent the Starship stage’s mass before launch, not including the Super Heavy booster.

Of course the above is not going to be apples to apples. You leave out the Super Heavy. You also do not have atmosphere to inhibit launch and to assist landing. But most important the gravity is very much lower.

The language of the answer looks partially wrong, but this part comes close to expectations:
Quote:

Dry mass (Starship only): ~75t www.easytool.me
Propellant mass (Starship only): ~1,800t www.easytool.me

But I would raise the dry mass to 125t. maybe eventually 100t.

The cargo is said to be 100t+, but I will presume 100t.

Query: "What is the gravitation of 10 Hygiea relative to that of Earth?"
Quote:

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Gravitational Strength of 10 Hygiea Relative to Earth
The equatorial surface gravity of 10 Hygiea is about 0.12m/s², compared to Earth’s 9.81m/s² Wikipedia. This means Hygiea’s gravity is roughly 1/82 of Earth’s gravity.
How this compares
Earth’s gravity: 9.81m/s²
Hygiea’s gravity: 0.12m/s²
Ratio: ~0.0148 (about 1.48% of Earth’s gravity)
If you could stand on Hygiea’s surface, you would feel about 1.5% as heavy as you do on Earth — so you’d weigh only about 1.5% of your Earth weight.
Why it’s so low
Hygiea’s low gravity is due to its small mass (about 8.74×10¹⁹kg) and relatively large size for its mass — it’s a dense, rocky body but still far smaller than Earth Wikipedia. Its mean density is about 2.06g/cm³, which is higher than Earth’s 5.5g/cm³, but its much smaller mass dominates the gravity calculation.
Summary: 10 Hygiea’s gravity is only about 1.5% of Earth’s, making it one of the weakest surface gravities in the Solar System. www.galaxycalc.com

So, a crude calculation without other considerations would say you could lift 100r * 82 = 8200t of cargo using 1800t of propellants.
But depending on the nature of the cargo, you would need more dry mass for tanks for liquids, or supports for solids.

Still the rocket equation is much more merciful on 10 Hygiea it seems.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So, I had a prior interest in unusual propellants earlier, Liquid Carbon Dioxide, and Water, and Oxygen.

The reason is economics and economics that don't work (Lack of a substance at reasonable cost).

Hydrogen, Carbon, Oxygen, Nitrogen all have different values at different locations depending on availability as one factor.

In low gravity situations Nitrogen seems scarce in the inner solar system. Carbon is scarce until Mars and perhaps Phobos and Deimos. Hydrogen that is available for use is available in small amounts on the Moon, Large amounts on Mars (Which has a large gravity well), and larger Amounts in the Outer Asteroid Belt.

Oxygen is available in almost any rock you would find, except maybe metal objects.

Oxygen is too reactive to use in hot engines, I expect and at high pressures. But Water and Carbon Monoxide being a good part Oxygen is a way to use Oxygen as a propellant.

So, water may be good in Nuclear Thermal and also Electric Plasma thrusters. I don't know if adding some extra Hydrogen or a light hydrocarbon to the water would improve results or not. I suspect it would as long as it did not harm the hardware. So, maybe Water/Vodka? I am presuming that the Hydrogen in the Vodka may help.

For Carbon Monoxide, I think it would be harder to add a Hydrocarbon like Methane, but if you could I think it would improve the expansion.

So, in other words, looking into water and Carbon Monoxide may conserve, Some substances such as Hydrogen, Carbon, and Nitrogen. different in each case.

Carbon is becoming an important building material It also appears in wood. So, depending on availability you might not want to spew it out for propulsion.

Hydrogen is Hard to come by in many situations, (but not at 10 Hygiea), but again, if you can use Oxygen in water or CO for throw mass, maybe that can be wise.

Nitrogen is in short supply in the inner solar system. There may be some in the Asteroid belt, but otherwise you have to try to get it from Jupiter's moons or Venus, which involves larger gravity wells and distances.

So that is why I am such a deviant about propellants.

And is probably important to remember the emerging option of Electric-Metal-Plasma Drives.

Ending Pending

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#10 Today 07:46:10

Void: Member; Registered: 2011-12-29; Posts: 9,641

Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)

This article indicates that Bennu retained some Nitrogen: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA25tah8 Quote:

NASA’s Bennu samples also held a gum-like material and dust forged in exploding stars
Story by BeckhamLangford • 3w •

Query: "Water in Bennu?"
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Water in Asteroid Bennu
NASA’s OSIRIS-REx mission returned the first asteroid sample from Bennu in September 2023, and analysis has revealed clear evidence that the asteroid’s parent body once had liquid water.
Evidence of ancient water
Scientists found several key indicators in the Bennu samples:
Hydrated silicates (phyllosilicates) — clay minerals that form only in the presence of liquid water www.asteroidbennu.com.
Magnesium–sodium phosphate — a mineral linked to water–rock interactions at moderate temperatures www.asteroidbennu.com.
Carbonate minerals — products of aqueous reactions between water and rock www.asteroidbennu.com.
These minerals show that Bennu’s parent body was geologically active and water-rich, possibly with subsurface oceans or briny layers, rather than being a dry, airless rock www.asteroidbennu.com.
How water flowed through Bennu
High-resolution nanoscale analysis of a Bennu fragment (OREX-800066-3) revealed three distinct chemical domains Earth.com+1.
Aliphatic-rich regions — open-chain hydrocarbons.
Carbonate-rich domains — inorganic minerals formed in water.
Nitrogen-bearing organic-rich domains — complex organics preserved in water-poor areas.
The sharp boundaries suggest water moved through narrow channels, chemically altering some regions while leaving others untouched. This preserved separate stages of Bennu’s history, including both mineral growth and fragile organic chemistry Earth.com+1.
When it happened
Isotopic analysis places these water–rock interactions within the first few million years of the solar system, before Earth fully cooled www.asteroidbennu.com. The parent body was large enough to retain internal heat from radioactive decay, allowing liquid water to persist.
Why it matters
Water is essential for life’s chemistry. The presence of abundant water and complex organics in Bennu’s parent body suggests that such asteroids could have delivered both water and prebiotic chemistry to early Earth, potentially aiding the origin of life www.asteroidbennu.com. This finding also shows that water was widespread in the early solar system, possibly common in other planetary systems.
In short, Bennu’s sample confirms that its parent body was once a water-rich, geologically active world, with water playing a key role in shaping its chemistry and potentially seeding Earth with life’s building blocks.

https://www.nasa.gov/news-release/nasas … bon-water/
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NASA’s Bennu Asteroid Sample Contains Carbon, Water

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101955_BennuWater:
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OSIRIS-REx observations have resulted in a (self-styled) conservative estimate of about 7 × 108 kg water in one form alone, neglecting additional forms. This is a water content of ~1 wt.%, and potentially much more. In turn this suggests transient pockets of water beneath Bennu's regolith. The surficial water may be lost from the collected samples. However, if the sample return capsule maintains low temperatures, the largest (centimeter-scale) fragments may contain measurable quantities of adsorbed water, and some fraction of Bennu's ammonium compounds.[72] A separate estimate, including other forms of water storage, is 6.2 wt%.[73]

My guess is that the bigger Carbonaceous Asteroids that are not shattered may contain more water as a percentage of materials.

Query: "How much iron could be in Bennu?"
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Iron Content in Asteroid Bennu
NASA’s OSIRIS-REx mission returned about 122g of pristine regolith from asteroid Bennu in September 2023, and laboratory analyses have revealed that Bennu’s material contains significant iron in multiple chemical forms NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).
Major iron-bearing minerals
Magnetite is a major component, indicating abundant Fe²⁺ in a crystalline oxide form NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).
FeNi sulfides (iron–nickel sulfides) are also present in minor amounts, showing reduced iron (Fe²⁺) in metallic and sulfide phases NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS).
Phyllosilicate minerals (hydrated clays) contain variable iron oxidation states — some regions have more Fe²⁺, others more Fe³⁺ — as detected by synchrotron XANES spectroscopy USRA-Houston.
Other minerals in Bennu’s regolith include carbonates, sulfates, chlorides, fluorides, and hydrated phosphates, all of which can incorporate iron in different oxidation states science.gsfc.nasa.gov+1.
Quantitative estimates
While the exact total mass of iron in Bennu’s entire asteroid is not yet published, the returned samples are dominated by carbonaceous chondrite-like material, which typically contains ~10–20wt% iron depending on mineralogy. Given that Bennu’s mass is about 7.3×10¹⁰kg astronex.net, and assuming a composition similar to CI-type carbonaceous chondrites, the total iron mass could be in the range of ~7–14million kilograms. This is a rough estimate — the actual value depends on the proportion of iron-bearing minerals in Bennu’s bulk composition.
Key points
Iron in Bennu exists in both oxidized (Fe³⁺ in magnetite, phyllosilicates) and reduced (Fe²⁺ in sulfides, some clays) forms USRA-Houston.
The variability in oxidation states suggests that Bennu’s parent body experienced a range of aqueous and thermal conditions early in the solar system USRA-Houston.
The high abundance of iron-bearing minerals makes Bennu a potential source of metallic and oxide iron for future space resource studies.
In summary, Bennu contains millions of kilograms of iron in a mix of metallic, sulfide, and oxide forms, with detailed analysis of the returned samples providing insight into its early solar system history and potential resource value.

Iron is one of the more easily extracted construction materials.

Query: "How much Mass does it take to build an O'Niell Cylinder habitat?"
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Mass Required to Build an O’Neill Cylinder Habitat
An O’Neill cylinder is a large rotating space habitat designed to provide artificial gravity and habitable space. The most common reference design is Island Three, with two counter‑rotating cylinders each about 6.4 km (4 mi) in diameter and 32 km (20 mi) long Wikipedia.
Estimated Total Mass
Calculations for a 6.4 km diameter, 32 km long O’Neill cylinder show that the total structure mass (including the shell, internal structures, and air) is on the order of 700 million metric tons spacecalcs.com. Breaking this down:
Shell mass (aluminum alloy T6): ~679 million tons
Internal structures (floors, supports, etc.): ~1.26 billion tons
Air mass (at Earth‑like pressure): ~16,000 tons spacecalcs.com
The internal floor area is about 8,040 km², capable of supporting millions of people depending on density Anisoptera Games.
Material Considerations
Best modern materials (steel, aluminum, titanium alloys) have strength‑to‑weight ratios suitable for this scale, but the shell is still extremely massive due to the need to withstand Earth‑equivalent air pressure (10 tonnes/m²) Anisoptera Games.
Fiber composites (carbon fiber, Kevlar) could reduce mass by 10–15× compared to metals, but current technology limits their use in such large, rotating structures.
Carbon nanotubes (theoretical) could cut mass by 20×, but they are not yet viable for this scale Anisoptera Games.
Why the Mass is So High
The shell must be thick enough to contain the internal air pressure without buckling.
The structure must be strong enough to handle the centrifugal forces from rotation.
Radiation shielding and other systems add to the total mass.
In summary: Building a 6.4 km × 32 km O’Neill cylinder would require about 700 million metric tons of material, with the shell alone making up the vast majority of that weight spacecalcs.com. This is comparable to the mass of a small country, highlighting the immense engineering and logistical challenge of such a project.

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The mass of Bennu is approximately 85 million tons (or about 7.329×10^10 kg)
Fiveable
Fiveable
+1
. This asteroid is about 1,640 feet (500 meters) in diameter and has a low density, indicating it is a rubble pile structure rather than a solid body.

So, a Stanford Torus may be more realistic. Query: "How much Mass is needed to build a Stanford Torus?"
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Mass Required to Build a Stanford Torus
The Stanford Torus is a proposed rotating space habitat designed to house about 10,000 people in a toroidal (doughnut-shaped) ring approximately 1.8 km in diameter, rotating once per minute to produce 1g of artificial gravity Wikipedia+1.
Total Mass
According to detailed design studies, the total mass of the Stanford Torus is about 10.1 megatons (10,100,000 tons) digitalhabitats.global+1. This includes:
Radiation shielding: ~9.8–9.9 million tons (about 98% of total mass) digitalhabitats.global+1.
Habitat structure and systems: ~150,000 tons of strong, lightweight materials like aluminum digitalhabitats.global.
Atmosphere and internal systems: included in the total mass.
Radiation Shielding
The shield is a 1.7m thick layer of raw lunar regolith (lunar soil) RTF | Rethinking The Future+1, chosen for its effectiveness in blocking cosmic radiation and micrometeoroids. This massive shielding is the single largest contributor to the total mass.
Structural Materials
The habitat’s shell is made from aluminum stressed-skin construction, similar to suspension bridges, to keep structural mass low while maintaining strength digitalhabitats.global+1.
Construction Context
The design assumes construction at the Earth–Moon L5 Lagrange point, using in-situ resources from the Moon or asteroids to minimize Earth-based supply needs grokipedia.com. The shield could be built from lunar material, and the structure from processed lunar or asteroidal metals.
In summary:
Total mass: ~10.1Mt
Shielding mass: ~9.9Mt (98% of total)
Structural mass: ~0.15Mt
Primary material: Aluminum shell + lunar regolith shield digitalhabitats.global+2

I know that Calliban once provided an estimate. But it looks like Bennu could provide for up to 8 Standford Torus devices.

But instead of making suburban housing in space, maybe 1 or two spaceships of large size could be created.

Steps:
1) If a Lunar Mass driver works, build a ship to fly to Bennu, with machinery suitable to process the object.
A small amount of space may be provided for humans, but mostly it would host robots and would be more or less "Dry".

2) Process Bennu, by largely creating a double wall balloon of Metal? and stuffing the bulk of the materials of Bennu inside the double walls.

Provide energy, (Solar, Nuclear), provide propulsion method, (Metal Plasma).

* So partially process the materials of Bennu to make a double shell and put the rest of the materials between the walls.

3) Fly to another world, and repeat/expand. This next world could be easy to reach as a priority, and if you had enough water, Carbon, Nitrogen, and Phosphorous from the Materials of Bennu, it could be of any variety including stony.

Inside of the double shell you could build subparts including centrifuges and greenhouses and factories.

4) Consider flying to Mars/Phobos/Deimos, or a Mars crossing asteroid that might be Carbonacious.

This would be like lighting a candle and then moving about to light more candles.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 09:40:40)

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#11 Today 09:17:25

Void: Member; Registered: 2011-12-29; Posts: 9,641

Re: AquaWorlds (Water Holding and Water Transporting Methods)

Which Asteroids are easiest to reach with spacecraft?
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Easiest Asteroids to Reach with Spacecraft
The “easiest” asteroids to reach are generally near-Earth asteroids (NEAs) that are relatively large, have stable orbits, and are close enough to Earth for a spacecraft to reach them with current propulsion technology. These targets are often prioritized for missions because they require less fuel and shorter travel times.
Key factors for “ease of reach”
Proximity to Earth: Closer asteroids require less delta‑v (change in velocity) to reach.
Orbital stability: Objects with predictable, non‑chaotic orbits are easier to plan trajectories for.
Size: Larger asteroids are easier to navigate and sample.
Rotation and shape: Simple, slow‑rotating bodies are safer for spacecraft operations.
Mission goals: Some missions target specific scientific or sample‑return objectives, which can influence target selection Little Astronomy.
Examples of relatively easy-to-reach asteroids
Bennu (101955) – Visited by NASA’s OSIRIS‑REx in 2018–2023. A carbonaceous NEA about 500 m in diameter, it was chosen for its composition and proximity to Earth Science Mission Directorate+1.
Ryugu (162173) – Target of Japan’s Hayabusa2 mission in 2018–2023. Also a carbonaceous NEA, ~900 m in diameter, with a stable orbit Little Astronomy.
Eros (433) – First asteroid orbited and landed on by NEAR Shoemaker in 2000. ~34 km in diameter, with a stable, slow‑rotating shape Little Astronomy.
Vesta (4) – Visited by NASA’s Dawn mission in 2011. A large, rocky asteroid (~525 km diameter) in the main belt, but reachable with current tech due to its size and orbital characteristics Wikipedia.
Ceres (1) – Largest object in the main belt (~950 km diameter), visited by Dawn in 2015. While farther from Earth, its size and stability make it a feasible target Wikipedia.
Near‑Earth asteroids in the “easiest” category
NASA’s Asteroid Watch lists upcoming close approaches of NEAs within ~7.5 million km (about 19.5 lunar distances) NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL). These include:
(2026 LD) – ~170 ft, closest approach June 9, 2026
(2026 KM3) – ~110 ft, closest approach June 9, 2026
(2011 LT17) – ~470 ft, closest approach June 12, 2026
(2026 LV) – ~47 ft, closest approach June 16, 2026
(2003 LN6) – ~130 ft, closest approach June 18, 2026
While these are small, their proximity makes them technically easier to reach than distant main‑belt asteroids.
Summary
The easiest asteroids to reach are typically large, stable‑orbit NEAs like Bennu and Ryugu, or major main‑belt bodies like Vesta and Ceres. Smaller NEAs with very close approaches (e.g., 2026 LD, KM3) are also easier to reach due to proximity, even if they are small. These targets balance scientific value with practical mission constraints.

So, referring to the just prior post as well, I think that a Lunar Mass Driver is to be very important.

While the Moon cannot spare a lot of volatile materials, it could contribute materials that would create large spaceships that could travel to certain asteroids and to begin processing them. I think that in a like manner one could be created to begin working with Phobos and Deimos.

This would not interfere with sending ships to Mars itself.

Query: "What is the relative size of Ryugu and Bennu?"
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Relative Size of Ryugu and Bennu
Ryugu is about twice as large as Bennu in diameter.
Ryugu measures roughly 1 kilometer (1,004 m) in diameter Wikipedia.
Bennu is about 0.49 kilometers (490 m) in diameter Wikipedia.
This means Ryugu’s diameter is approximately 2.04 times that of Bennu. Both are small asteroids compared to other bodies in the solar system, but Ryugu is significantly larger, making it about twice as big in size.

So, a consortium of entities from Earth could process those two first, then perhaps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros
Image Quote:
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Animation of NEAR Shoemaker trajectory from 19 February 1996 to 12 February 2001. NEAR Shoemaker Eros Earth Mathilde Sun .

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Water and hydroxyl, once believed to only exist in primitive bodies beyond 2.5-3 Astronomical Units (AU), have now been detected on the surfaces of near-Earth asteroids 433 Eros and 1036 Ganymed. This breakthrough challenges previous assumptions about the distribution of water in our solar system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/253_Mathilde
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253 Mathilde is an asteroid in the intermediate asteroid belt, approximately 50 kilometers in diameter, that was discovered by Austrian astronomer Johann Palisa at Vienna Observatory on 12 November 1885. It has a relatively elliptical orbit that requires more than four years to circle the Sun. This tumbling asteroid has an unusually slow rate of rotation, requiring 17.4 days to complete a 360° revolution about its axis. It is a primitive C-type asteroid, which means the surface has a high proportion of carbon; giving it a dark surface that reflects only 4% of the light that falls on it.[8]

So, I return to this idea from the previous post:

A beehive like structure with double walls containing regolith between them. Compartments in that structure.

And inside you could provide distinct machines to provide artificial gravity of a magnitude suitable for human health. Greenhouses, Etc.

So, as you "Digested" a small asteroid like Bennu, you could put most of its mass inside of the double shell. Then do further processing as you moved to another asteroid. Rinse and repeat.

By the time you got into processing Mathilde next might come 10 Hygeia, and 16 Psyche.

Once you had 10 Hygeia, you could start bringing volatile substances inward to "Irrigate" Stony Asteroids and perhaps Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 09:46:45)

Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?

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