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#1 2026-03-09 07:40:22
- Void
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Jevons Paradox and Social Amplifiers and Reach
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Jevons Paradox:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
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Jevon's Paradox
The Jevons Paradox occurs when improvements in resource efficiency lead to increased, rather than decreased, total consumption of that resource.
Definition and Mechanism
The Jevons Paradox is an economic phenomenon where technological improvements that increase the efficiency of a resource's use result in a rise in total consumption of that resource, rather than a reduction. Greater efficiency lowers the effective cost of using the resource, which can stimulate demand if the resource is price elastic. This increased demand can outweigh the savings from efficiency, leading to higher overall consumption.Social Amplifiers, in my opinion come in the form of human and non-human forms.
Wikipedia
+2The process typically follows this sequence:
Technological Progress: A new invention or method makes a resource more efficient.
Price Drop: Less of the resource is needed per unit of output, reducing the effective cost.
Increased Demand: Lower costs encourage more frequent use or new applications.
Net Increase: Total consumption rises despite per-unit efficiency gains.
22 Sources
Historical Origin
The paradox was first described by William Stanley Jevons in 1865 in his book The Coal Question. Jevons observed that as steam engines became more efficient, Britain’s coal consumption increased rather than decreased. The improved efficiency made coal a cheaper and more attractive energy source, which expanded its use across industries.
Wikipedia
+2
Modern Examples
Energy Efficiency: More efficient cars, appliances, or LED lighting can lead to higher overall energy use because the lower cost encourages greater usage or additional installations.
2
Digital Technology: Improvements in computing efficiency and AI can increase demand for data processing and storage, raising total energy consumption.
1
Water Use: Water-saving technologies may paradoxically increase total water consumption if they reduce the perceived cost of water use.
12 Sources
Implications for Sustainability
The Jevons Paradox highlights that efficiency alone may not reduce resource consumption. To mitigate its effects, efficiency improvements should be paired with policies that maintain or increase the cost of resource use, such as green taxes, cap-and-trade systems, or conservation regulations. Behavioral economics also explains that humans respond strongly to lower costs, often prioritizing immediate financial incentives over long-term environmental concerns.
sustainability-directory.com
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Key Takeaway
While efficiency gains are important, the Jevons Paradox demonstrates that without complementary measures, technological improvements can unintentionally increase resource consumption, challenging assumptions that efficiency automatically leads to sustainability.
Wikiped
Social Amplifiers, in my opinion come in two forms:
1) Hunan services (Compelled or induced).
2) Biological/Animal or Machine/Robot services. (Mostly Compelled).
Reach, in my opinion, is when a new Social Amplifier expands the reach of a society.
Reach may put additional resources into the sphere of human/amplifier/reach actions.
This is what prompted me to create this topic this morning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IqAXwOXZmA
Quote:
For $2/hour Elon Musk Is Going to Replace Humans
Farzad
I will give what I think is a very close example of this in the next post:
Last edited by Void (2026-03-09 08:03:22)
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#2 2026-03-09 08:07:03
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Re: Jevons Paradox and Social Amplifiers and Reach
The Social Amplifier, Falcon 9 has provided reach to attain Starlink.
Starlink, requires a better Social Amplifier, Starship. Machines/Robots will reduce the labor cost for Starships.
Starship, as a Social Amplifier, will increase Reach to allow for Orbital Data Bases, under the Van Allen Belts and later above the Van Allen Belts and beyond.
Expanded Reach will make more raw materials / resources available to the so called "Civilization"/"Us".
The raw material "Sunlight" makes an expanded set of "Tokens" available for consumption.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mas to orbit is like a bank account, I feel.
Previously, mass to orbit is mostly subject to early decay. LEO objects almost always end up as burning up in the atmosphere or placed in "Graveyard" orbits where they become unavailable for further service.
Where Reusable Starship is a desired and needed capability, One-Time Starships may have large value as well.
Robots may make Onetime Starships worth the effort.
This is a contradiction of words for actual circumstances that may be projected.
A Reusable Starship robs orbits of Mass that could be indefinitely reused in orbit.
A One-Time Starship's mass might be reused indefinitely in orbits.
That is a funny thing to understand.
Ending Pending 
Last edited by Void (2026-03-09 08:16:07)
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#3 2026-03-10 02:57:37
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Re: Jevons Paradox and Social Amplifiers and Reach
Being Value
Doing Value
In orbit: Being Value: 1kg Gold, 1kg, Steel, 1 kg Aluminum, 1 kg Silicon, etc.
In orbit: Doing Value: Those masses, involved in wealth creation.
Because In Orbit Being Value could be translated into Doing Value, it could be speculated on, just like precious metals in a vault.
But their Doing Value Potentials, would make that speculation different than on Earth. The Gold might not be as valuable as the other materials.
Does, space junk and potential space junk have "Being Value".
The radiators from the International Space Station may have being value, if they could be converted to a new "Doing Value".
Atmospheric Drag is a rent that must be paid. Low orbits have higher rents. It costs more to preserve any value.
But higher orbits have a greater up-front cost.
But lower orbits have less time latency with the ground.
Electrodynamic Tethers are not massless drives, they expel the Earth.
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#4 2026-03-10 09:23:52
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Re: Jevons Paradox and Social Amplifiers and Reach
Isaac Arthur only touches briefly on orbital solar. Even so, this is an interesting video: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE
Quote:
Why solar energy is about to explode
MSN
Isaac Arthur
He does talk about orbital solar thermal power.
Some members here will be more compatible with that than with solar panels. And I have to agree that recycling Solar thermal Power Plants to new Solar Thermal Power Plants looks more doable than to recycle solar panels to new solar panels in orbit. So, as far as an orbital junk industry would be concerned, that looks pretty good. CO2 as the fluid used, I presume, but then you have to get the Carbon from somewhere.
Early on, I expect that solar panels will be used in singular Sun Synchronous, orbits. But on becoming aged they might be recycled to make things like Solar Thermal Power Plants.
I have already mentioned elsewhere, why I think it would be nice to have One-Time Starships made in part of Aluminum. The same may be true for Carbon. If the build process for Neutron of Rocket Lab is as good as they claim, then it might also be used for that. And Neutron 2nd stages might also be a source of Carbon in orbit.
So, that makes Earth an early source of Carbon. The Moon is not likely to be a major source of Carbon for orbits.
I would think maybe Bennu, Ryugu, Deimos, Phobos, and Mars could be considered. But they are hard to access for those materials.
I have taken a look at Trojan Asteroids of Earth. They are also hard to access because of the inclination of their orbits. Of two, the larger on though is said to be Carbonaceous.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_trojan
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Earth has two known Trojan asteroids, 2010 TK7 and 2020 XL5, which share its orbit around the Sun and are located at the L4 Lagrange point.
Overview of Earth Trojan Asteroids
Trojan asteroids are celestial bodies that share an orbit with a planet, clustering around stable gravitational points known as Lagrange points. For Earth, these points are located 60 degrees ahead (L4) and behind (L5) in its orbit around the Sun. Currently, only two Earth trojans have been discovered:
2010 TK7: This was the first Earth trojan discovered in 2010. It orbits at the L4 point and is approximately 400 meters in diameter. It is expected to remain in this stable orbit for about 10,000 years.
2
2020 XL5: Discovered in December 2020 and confirmed as an Earth trojan in early 2021, 2020 XL5 is significantly larger, measuring about 1.2 kilometers in diameter. It also resides at the L4 point and is predicted to remain stable for several millennia.
33 Sources
Significance of Earth Trojans
Earth trojans are of great interest to astronomers because they can provide insights into the early solar system and the building blocks of planets. They are composed of material that dates back to the formation of the solar system, making them valuable for understanding planetary formation and evolution. Additionally, the discovery of 2020 XL5 suggests that there may be more Earth trojans yet to be found, which could potentially serve as targets for future exploration or resource utilization.
NSF - National Science Foundation
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Future Exploration
The existence of Earth trojans opens up possibilities for future space missions. If more trojans are discovered, especially those with lower orbital inclinations, they could become more accessible than the Moon for exploration missions, potentially serving as bases for further solar system exploration.
NSF - National Science FoundationIn summary, Earth trojans are fascinating celestial objects that not only enhance our understanding of the solar system but also present opportunities for future scientific exploration.
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/(614689)_2020_XL5
Obviously, it needs more study. But its size and the potential that it is carbonaceous are interesting.
With Starship and Optimus, perhaps it could be mined, and industrial facilities could be set up where it could export things to the Earth/Moon.
Anyway, it is a possibility with future technology.
Ending Pending
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#5 2026-03-10 10:20:08
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Re: Jevons Paradox and Social Amplifiers and Reach
This is my second post on this topic today: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VAMGZC Quote:
Automated Optimus Bots: Tesla Robots Mining the Moon for SpaceX
YouTube
Industrial Reveal
It is an interesting work. However using Chlorine which can be recycled, it appears that Iron, and I think Oxygen, could be extracted from regolith at much lower temperatures per "Salt Mining".
See this topic: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11305
Quote:
Index» Life support systems» Flash Recycling, Salt Mining
These web sites have useful resources to offer as well:
https://www.youtube.com/@Anthrofuturism
https://www.spacestartupnews.com/
Ending Pending
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#6 2026-03-11 09:39:09
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Re: Jevons Paradox and Social Amplifiers and Reach
I am going to offer some things that I think are true, and others that I simply hold as speculation/theory that is under further consideration.
There may be a parallel between Subtractive vs. Additive Space, and Subtractive vs. Additive Social regulating. The reason this may matter is that if we are stuck in a Subtractive form of Social Regulation, we might also naturally apply Subtractive thinking to space where we should not do so.
An example of space environment that may have features of Subtraction and of Addition could be the asteroid belt. We think that the asteroid belt was added to during an earlier point in the formation of the solar system, and we think it is tending to be subtracted from since then. As objects collide they either shatter and the dust might be pushed outward by the solar wind and sunlight. Also, objects that may wander near aa sizable world may be added to that world, and so subtract from the asteroid belt.
In Earth orbits, subtraction is typical. So, any mass added may be conserved, but any mass added to it may be expected to decay over long stretches of time even with the best conservation efforts. So, the answer is then to get more mass to those orbits from a proximate world, such as the Earth, or Moon.
In human psychology, I think we are struggling to emerge from a psychology of "Managed Decline". I am not the first to mention it. I believe that the expansion of the so-called west, lead to the Baby Boom, and the response was that the management decided to "Eat the Children". To squeeze more out of them and to throttle down the birth rate.
I do not necessarily find fault with their diagnosis of what they could do or should do. But they need to readjust at this point. The social programs that they promoted to discourage successful mating and child rearing events is not appropriate to what is to come.
The idea of breeding a superior race by applying cruelty is stupid anyway. The results of the application of cruelty will be unsuitable to civilization. They might wish to have a race tuned for the situation of the 20th century, is stupid in itself as we do not now live in the 20th century.
I feel that the movie "Gravity" illustrates wrong thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_(2013_film)
The idea of managed decline is not to build a society, but to consume it and be the winner while others lose.
Instead of a movie about cleaning up the problems, they are still in the mode for the last Sacellum. Perhaps about 80 years.
In that time period the west had a bump in population that could be "Eaten" by the rulers, and a contraction of resources available for them.
It is not that that sort of management is always wrong, but it is wrong to insist that it is they only pathway that is appropriate in all time periods.
We are gaining new methods to amplify human power and our reach is expanding. But we will need to be careful to push back the zombies from the previous era, who only see this potential expansion as requiring an increase in decay rates by any means possible.
So, what is coming in reach are methods to suppress the Kestler Syndrome, and methods to use space resources below the Van Allen Belts and beyond.
So, we need to understand that any effort to build a future will be in some danger from those who find decay a source of their nutrition.
Ending Pending
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#7 2026-03-11 11:01:24
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Re: Jevons Paradox and Social Amplifiers and Reach
In my mind, I followed a path outward to increasing amplification and increasing reach.
It has occurred to me that that path might eventually make the so-called civilization of our solar system able to jump onto an interstellar comet and inhabit it. Granted others have though similar things. Beyond sending spaceships out to extra-solar worlds, that could be a high achievement that could be attained.
So, that is a very far reach to "Take over" 3I/Atlas for instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3I/ATLAS But perhaps a larger one.
From there, perhaps to grab solar system comets, and perhaps not so much to crash them into a world, but to convert them into structure and to conserve substances of value. But for some of them, you could crash them into a world like Mars, or Venus, or Mercury.
And that would put you at a point where you might extract the volatiles and other substances captured into orbits of worlds like Mars or Venus or Mercury.
And falling back a bit more from that, could you make very large Spaceships in the Asteroid belt and fly them to orbit other worlds?
So, then end up at start on Earth and reverse order.
Data Centers and other platforms in orbit of Earth>Moon>Deimos/Phobos/Mars>(Materials to orbit)>Asteroid Belt>Supersized Spaceships>Callisto>(Supersized Spaceships)>Outward, even working with comets.
So, I think we are on the right path.
We just have to stop the Anti-Humanists from interfering.
Ending Pending
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#8 2026-03-12 10:26:28
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Re: Jevons Paradox and Social Amplifiers and Reach
I saw a video about orbital data centers. It was interesting, but I feel it was flawed. The author presumed that the satellites might last 6 year and then be disposed of by dumping them into the atmosphere.
I suspect that this is what I would call the "Cyclic Thinking Flaw".
I think this flaw, is a flaw now but was not before. Farming was Cyclic, with the seasons.
Even Egypt had seasonal water flows. Although it used technology to irrigate, it developed hierarchy, which in my opinion caused specialization and limited mental resources, and froze the culture.
If by some mysterious source, boats perpetually appeared upstream in the river, and flowed down the river and were composed of various materials including metals, then an industrial feature would be added to the Egyptian culture, and the agricultural economy would have some part of the governing power.
The flow of mass from a world is unnatural also. But with the invention of Rockets, it has the potential to be perpetual. From the Earth and eventually with other means as well from other worlds such as the Moon.
Our problem with "Cyclic Thinking Flaw" is that the descendants of "Farmer" thinking, will not be able to comprehend accumulation of Mass in unnatural locations.
We have reached a point where a continual "River" of Mass can be emitted by a world to orbital locations.
The farmer mentality eventually formed hierarchy where some people started farming other people. This leads to stupid rulers that mostly understand communication skills and violence. The pesante are not valued for anything except to be easy to extract wealth from using communications and if needed violence. Any resistance to such wealth flows may get your culled from the peasant gene pool.
It has become clearer to me from items from the internet, the thoughts of others, that in the conflict within the Anglosphere and connected regions, has two major forces. One has been called by some people, "The City of London". The other is the USA.
After WWII, in the 20th Century, it appears that the "City of London" won. The USA was running out of OIL, and manipulations across the planet endangered imports of Oil. We became convinced that we needed to deindustrialize. Until Fracking was invented, we were stuck in that, and the City of London was able to begin culling American resistance to Pesantization.
I think that now our resistance is the result of the Greens promoting ridiculous cultural concepts, which were intended to reduce breeding of industrial peoples especially in Europe and North America. We have finally rejected that "Cup of Vomit" that they tried to make us drink from.
Now we have this river of mass that is traveling into orbits, and may possibly get another river of matter flowing form the Moon.
We must understand that the "City of London" (Not entirely a geographical concept), depends on degrading the industrial classes and managing the decline, in order to extract wealth from the decay process.
So, with that historic pattern, our need is to nurture the emergence of a new industrial economy against the consumption of it desired by the "City of London".
At first, at least that may make sense as AI grows in power. But I don't know what the result later on. An elevated humanity or an extinct humanity.
I am not thinking that anyone as low as a human knows how this turns out.
Ending Pending
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#9 2026-03-13 10:35:56
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Re: Jevons Paradox and Social Amplifiers and Reach
I wish to appropriate materials from RGCLARK as they fit with this topic, I feel. But I do not what to interfere with a more
professional dialog, which I presume is desired at the location of that topic. https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 01#p238501 Quote:
Still, there are advantages to launching the expendable version. SpaceX has given the expendable payload of the Starship V3 as 300 tons. Industry experts estimated and Elon has confirmed a build cost, i.e., the cost to SpaceX, of ca. $90 million. This is a per kg cost of ca. $300/kg, nearly a tenth of the Falcon 9 cost.
I agree, but as it might already be known, I have plans for the "Expended" Starship: https://www.humanmars.net/2019/08/cutaw … rship.html Image Quote: 
The above diagram is pretty good for my purposes.
If you broke the Starship, Expendable into two parts, you could use the upper part in LEO+ and refill and fly the lower part to land on the Moon. You might remove or replace some of the raptors prior to the launch to the Moon.
You might have a specialized landing pad that would minimize the need for legs, and upon landing of the device, it could be tipped and placed on a wheeled device to move it to a desired location to place on a prepared ground.
While these might in some cases be upgraded to host humans, they also might be workshops and safe places for robotic devices at night.
With regolith piled on top perhaps as sintered arches, a thermal capacitor or if you like battery could be created. The interiors might not be pressurized. Cart-type rovers might just roll inside for the nighttime; Humanoid robots might climb stairs to go up to a higher deck. A door might be rather simple just to help retain heat at night.
Electric power within might help the robots endure the night. If these hosted workshops, then the robots could do useful work at night if electric power is sufficient. Doing work would help keep the places heated.
You could make long strings of these things. You could move to higher and higher levels of clean as you moved inward from one section to another.
I see this as a way to accelerate the arrival of the ability to manufacture Satellites on the Moon and a Mass Driver to send them into space.
Back to the upper part of the Starship in LEO+, it could be made into many different things and even the scrapping of it could be very useful for the notions of Sun Synchronous Data Bases in orbit.
So, this is an "Expendable, Not-Really" plan.
Ending Pending
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#10 2026-03-14 10:18:45
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Re: Jevons Paradox and Social Amplifiers and Reach
This morning I am thinking about "Moon-Tents".
Lets say you might create an "Industrial Campus" on the Moon to produce materials for construction on the Moon and we hope for export to things like orbital Data Centers. In the previous post I have suggested landing the propulsion section of One-Time Starships on the Moon. They might land into a special catcher that could catch and tip them into a large cart that could take them to an "Industrial Campus", to be deployed.
I suggest that tenting could link some of these assemblies together. It might be the best if the "Tenting" materials could be manufactured on the Moon, but to start with landing the materials might be best. I suggest a method to Hard-land then tenting materials and yet to soft land the Starship propulsion system.
The substance Kevlar might be rolled up and perhaps a blast of a gas into the roll just before impact. The "Cargo Balls" might include materials that could be extruded or 3D printed to make tent frames.
The base of the tents might be made of bricks sintered from Lunar Regolith: https://scitechdaily.com/turning-lunar- … sintering/ Quote:
Turning Lunar Dust Into Space Bricks for Moon Bases Using Microwave Sintering
By National Research Council of Science & TechnologyAugust 31, 20241 Comment4 Mins Read
So, the survival of equipment on the Moon is in part about excluding dust and in part about dealing with thermal variables. Hot day and cold night.
Tenting could help with that. You could exclude dust, with increased cleanness as you went further into a tented system. Starting with a un-tented patio where robotic cleaning would occur, then moving robots and materials further in where periodic cleanings of the floor surfaces would also occur. These tented tunnels could lead to Starship sections that might host certain activities.
So, that helps with the clean issues, I think.
But for thermal issues, the tents may offer shading in the daytime. The floor bricks could absorb heat during the day and release it at night.
You may have nuclear fission power and solar electric power.
You could inject heat into the ground under the floors of the tents using microwaves during the day, as a thermal storage which would naturally release at night.
It is also possible that industrial activities would release heat that could be absorbed into the floors of the tents and released at a later time by simple natural radiation.
So, then you could have an industrial complex where the environments would be sufficiently buffered for fine machinery to survive.
In time it might be possible to make tenting materials our of mineral fibers, and tent frames from Lunar materials.
The Starship sections might be pressurized for some purpose in some cases or not pressurized at all in other cases.
I think you might put arches of sintered brick over the horizontal Starship sections.
Ending Pending
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#11 2026-03-14 20:47:01
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Re: Jevons Paradox and Social Amplifiers and Reach
So then perhaps a Cocoon shelter method might work for the Moon: 
If you could extract Iron from regolith, and make tent frames with it and imported Carbon, then "Thatch" the tent with mineral wool bundles of some sort.
https://www.iko.com/na/blog/ancient-roofs/
Image Quote: 
Except for rocket thrusters there would be no wind. There will be no rain, except for small impactors for the most part. It actually might be pretty good to some extent as a first hit might vaporize the impactor, if it is quite small. Repairs if needed would be relatively easy.
Mineral wool fibers might make things a bit "Dirty" but you might keep the Moon dust under control.
The thermal environment may be buffered from the typical highs and lows.
You might put some lighting inside for human and robot eyes. I will not need to be too much though.
The floor can be of 1 or more layers of pavement bricks sintered from regolith.
Such shelters as these could host protection for robots against the most extreme conditions, and might also host some of the industrial processes that will be wanted to implement to produce products.
Radiation protection will not be too good, but if at a polar location you might have a thick vertical wall to block some of the radiation of a solar storm.
As I have said, also you might link these to shelters made from Starship parts such as the propellant tanks, which may or may not be pressurized. Those perhaps can be turned into radiation shelters with regolith.
Ending Pending
Carbon for Carbon Steel for the tent frames might come from 2nd stages of Neutron Rockets or from polar resources on the Moon.
Tent frames might also be made of some kind of glass perhaps, not so sure on that.
Ending Pending
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#12 2026-03-15 10:05:30
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Re: Jevons Paradox and Social Amplifiers and Reach
The idea of tents on the Moon has emerged as a way to augment the possible use of Starships as habitats and factories on the Moon. My view of it is that the fairings of such Starships might be left in LEO+ and that the "Locomotive" (Propulsion system) might be refilled and flown to the Moon to land on a special catcher that will lay it flat into a special cart to deploy it to a "Campus" for science and industry on the Moon.
In the previous post I suggested a tent of this sort:
I imagined it to be a sort of metal frame, including chicken wire perhaps, where mineral wool bundles might be place on it like straw in a thatch method. Quote:
https://www.iko.com/na/blog/ancient-roofs/
Image Quote:
I want to try to adapt this concept to be further built from more native and available materials from the Moon.
So, I might start with a structure like a Roman Aqueduct as the center line of such a structure, the rigid "Pole".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_aqueduct
Image Quote: 
I have gone from resenting Roman heritage to some level of admiration. Thay had some talents.
I that such structure might work well on the Moon, as the center "Pole" substitute for a tent-like structure.
Sintered blocks might do quite well, if you had a good foundation into the Lunar regolith.
Then you would only need metal to make something like Chicken Wire, which could be the foundation for the tent roof.
Then you might place Mineral Wool Bundles on top of that to make a sort of thatched roof.
Iron for such wire would be available on the Moon, but Carbon might have to be imported to make steel. Minimizing Steel in a structure might be very desirable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tent
Image Quote: 
So, such could be a environmental buffering device to protect fragile things from the harsh Lunar environment.
Substitutions for the "Chicken Wire" might be fabrics from Earth, or things make from Silicon Oxide or Silicon.
Fiberglass Cloth: https://www.fiberglasswarehouse.com/col … lass-cloth
https://www.amazon.com/fiberglass-cloth … lass+cloth
Woven:
Image Quote: 
Fiberglass Chopped Strand Mat:
Image Quote: 
These are likely things that could be made on the Moon from native raw materials.
Should technology for Carbon Nanotubes advance perhaps its cousin Silicon Nanotubes will become practical as well. Again, a material from regolith perhaps on the Moon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_nanotube
But that is probably a more distant possility.
So, like Lava Tubes these tents might provide some improvement for the Lunar Environment but not so much for radiation. Radiation protection might be built into the center wall, where robots might hide from it under or behind the wall.
Most labor on the Moon will almost certainly be done by robots, and lften probably in a Lunar Vacuum, so these tents might have value.
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Last edited by Void (2026-03-15 10:46:48)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
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#13 2026-03-15 12:57:27
- Void
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- Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: Jevons Paradox and Social Amplifiers and Reach
Elaborating on posts #11 and #12, the brains for the robots so a larger extent could be buried under regolith in vaults to protect from radiation.
From post #12:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_aqueduct
Image Quote:
So, for the Moon arches on top of arches, could allow that the lowest arch set can be wider than the next on up, a bit lit a step pyramid.
As example in part......... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_pyramids
Ignoring the stairways in this photo: Image Quote: 
But "Steps" might be in the form of a series of arches with the next "Step" having a smaller number or arches than the tone below it.
If you want to visualize it a different way then each step would have tunnels passing through it.
The mass then would provide radiation shelters in the tunnels, and also a large heat sink. A tent method then might cover the entire structure.
I am just trying to open the imagination on this, I am not mandating dogma.
Given energy and robots and the raw materials of the Moon, a great deal of structure could be built that would give "Life-Support" to large numbers of robots and a much smaller number of humans, on the Moon.
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Last edited by Void (2026-03-15 13:14:20)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
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#14 2026-03-15 18:13:07
- Void
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Re: Jevons Paradox and Social Amplifiers and Reach
Looking a this again: https://www.humanmars.net/2019/08/cutaw … rship.html
The upper part of a possible type of Starship: 
It is my thinking that the upper part of a Starship might be retained to LEO+, in the case where the ship is not to return to Earth.
Using two Starship upper parts, you might create a LEO+ Space Station capable of synthetic gravity on occasions: 
Or you might treat the upper part as scrap materials to be turned into something else.
Then that would leave you with two lower parts.
You could refill the lower parts and use them as In-Orbit boosters or land them on the Moon: Image Quote:
They may or may not carry cargo clipped onto their outer surfaces.
Without Cargo, then the "Locomotives" would have less dry mass than an empty Starship, 60 to 70 Tons????
Dedicated landing pads which will tolerate Raptor engines and with shorter catch towers may receive them.
Keep in mind that if these did weigh 60 to 70 tons in the Lunar gravity their weight without cargo might be: 10 to 11.67 tons of Dry Mass plus residual propellants. Much less of a task than for a landing tower on Earth.
The towers could be shorter as well as the upper parts of the Starship would not be included.
Now modify the tower so that it can tip the landed devices horizontal to a very large wheeled cart.
Then the cart takes them to a location to become part of an industrial robotic complex.
There will be no refilling structures at the landing pad, so a crash will not have a cascade effect. Repairs to damage would then be less a problem.
Cleaning space junk from LEO and LEO+ are going to be necessary activities, and I have my eye on the 2nd Stage for Neutron by Rocket Labs. The propellant tanks are Carbon Based, I believe.
https://rocketlabcorp.com/launch/neutron/
Image Quote: 
The 2nd stage hangs in the reusable fairings attached to the 1st Stage and has one engine, not shown in the drawing.
I am very interested to see if this could be brought to the Moon so that the Carbon and Hydrogen in the tank walls can be used to make water and Carbon Steel from Lunar Regolith.
I even wonder if the engines of 6 could be swapped with 6 Raptors so that the Raptors could be brought back to Earth. The Archimedes engines may be sufficient to take the Starship lower section to the Moon and to land it.
Of course to do these manipulations you will need platforms in LEO and LEO+.
But it would be very nice to recycle the raptors to attach to another such Starship, and to strap 6 Neutron 2nd Stages onto a Starship lower section to fly to the Moon, and then to make water and Carbon Steel using Lunar Regolith.
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Last edited by Void (2026-03-15 18:49:38)
Is it possible that the root of political science claims is to produce white collar jobs for people who paid for an education and do not want a real job?
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