Housekeeping

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-14 07:47:39

For SpaceNut ...

Void just posted about relativistic electrons...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 80#p236180

You would probably have read the post anyway, but I would like to point it out as a possible source of great questions for your AI friend!

The article Void cited describes use of electrons as propellant but it does not reveal where the electrons are coming from.

Electrons are NOT created on the space craft, so they must be created somewhere else and (somehow) collected by the spacecraft for use as propellant. It think this might be a question our readers would find interesting.

When you post answers from your AI Friend, please be sure to include the query. We can often learn as much from the query as we can from the answer.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-14 10:50:52

For SpaceNut ...

Nice image in https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 86#p236186

Please see if your AI Friend is capable of doing more than just offering hand waving and high level overviews.

We need specific equipment recommendations for Calliban's Dome.

GW Johnson is (currently) thinking about cooling air and removing water by creating an opening from the dome for passage of air to outside radiators. I am worried that precious thermal energy would be lost to the dome interior if that were done.

I think your illustration of a mechanism inside the dome has the opportunity to avoid loss of thermal energy to Mars.

Please see if your AI friend can recommend specific off-the-shelf products to handle the air inside Calliban's Dome.

Also... please consider going back to Calliban's original sketch of what the floor plan might look like. I think we've allowed ourselves to be distracted by the ideas of tiers of layers of housing. I know that Calliban introduced that idea, but I don't think we should give up on the Italian Plaza vision that Calliban showed us early on.

If we return to the Italian Plaza vision, then we are creating something that wealthy Martians can inhabit, and working Martians can visit for special occasions.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-15 16:13:30

For SpaceNut re post on lighting: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 22#p236222

thanks for this helpful addition to the topic.

In the City topic, Gemini suggests a population for Calliban's dome of between 600 and 1200 people at most. The reason is the amount of green space that Calliban called for in his original layout before he took a side trip to consider dense population.

In today's City post, Gemini recommends a small town atmosphere with an "Amsterdam" feel.

My concept of this is that a town center like this would be attractive to Mars dwellers who might live in small habitats nearby, and who would come to town for the same reasons that rural residents on Earth have ** always ** come to town.

There would be a few extremely wealthy residents who would live permanently in the town, and most folks of normal means would occupy affordable housing in the vicinity.

There are craters all over Mars, so entrepreneurs would build duplicates of Calliban's dome whenever they see an opportunity, just as we see today on Earth.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-15 18:19:23

For SpaceNut re post on lighting: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 22#p236222

A follow up is appreciation for your discussion of adaptable lighting.

It is likely residents inside the dome will appreciate the diurnal cycle to be expressed inside the dome, to match the conditions outside on Mars. The LED ceiling could be adjusted down and potentially the display could be changed to a star field to match what is visible outside the dome at the corresponding moment.

My understanding (from rare pictures taken of the nighttime sky) is that the sky on Mars is spectacular, and totally free of light pollution.

Potentially that pristine skyscape could be reproduced inside the dome.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-15 20:57:08

For SpaceNut re dome LED lighting powered by solar panels .... https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 30#p236230

If only Louis were here to applaud that idea!

The cleaning of solar panels on Mars will surely be automated. There is no reason that I can see for residents to put up with dirty panels.

However, if you (or they) want a starfield overhead, they'll have to allocate the fission energy to provide it.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-16 20:26:51

For SpaceNut re Calliban's dome ....

Thank you for all the work you have put in on this concept!

We have a lot of unknowns to deal with, but with your support, I think this project has a chance of moving out of the fantasy stage.

One aspect of the design that your work has brought to our attention is that the growing facility must be underneath the living surface. The picture you showed of a vertical farm gave me the idea ... we want the space under the dome to be primarily designed for humans to experience as a small town under a blue sky with plenty of plant life around. However, I don't think the plants on the surface need to be for consumption. I think they should be ornamental and for production of oxygen, as well as purification of water.

The huge excavation under the surface is where space is needed for agriculture to feed a population between 600 and 1200 humans plus assorted animals.

Let's begin thinking about that.

I'd also like to remind you of the work Steve Stewart did ... at the time he published his ideas you seemed to have a problem dealing with them. Enough time has passed so that you might be able to go back and gain a better understanding of what he proposed.

SEED comes to mind as a word he used to describe his concept.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-17 10:16:35

For SpaceNut re GW Johnson's post about MAVEN ....

Your post above GW's needs attention...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 02#p223402

I tried the link and it didn't work, but the article may still be available if you have time to look for it.

It may be a while before we learn what happened to MAVEN.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2025-12-17 15:23:47

Ya I remember Steve only wanted to post his paper Proposal: Storing Energy, Introducing a "Cell", a Soil Factory on Mars that missed many issues like all projects geared to mars.

1. Assumed starting point magically happens with no build up of equipment or facts for mars to support doing it.
2. Thinking that burning the insitu from produced fuels and oxygen is a good thing for heat when a NUCLEAR REACTOR in any form requires heat removal that can be used.
3. Starter soil manufacturing to fill the trays only glances at the issue
4. full atmospheric pressure of earth within the structure.

All which I tried to bring up and more, once I move all of my posts Companion: Storing Energy, Introducing a "Cell", a Soil Factory .

The topic has been edited and updated but still contains errors.

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-17 16:25:23

For SpaceNut re report in Humidity topic ... thanks for finding and showing that explanation of GW's passive flow idea.

***
Regarding Steve Stewart's work ... We might be able to bring Steve back. We'll have to go back to see how things went when he first offered his ideas to the group. What a new member offers something, we sometimes see older members jump on the offering in such a way as to discourage the new member from participating.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-17 18:29:46

For SpaceNut re vertical gardens ... https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 76#p236276

Nice collection!

Now let's adapt what you found to Calliban's dome?

Remember to keep the Superdome in mind as you think about this project.

We are NOT going to be using solar panels for this project. It demands a full fission reactor solution.

We are fortunate to have a member who is qualified to design nuclear reactors, and I expect qualified to build and operate them. Let's not waste any time fooling around with lesser solutions..

We need to size the cavity under the dome to hold the vertical gardens that are needed to sustain 1000 people continuously.

We don't need to crimp ourselves with worries about supplies of material, power and whatever else is needed.

What we need to do is to define the system components based upon the objective. When that is done we can worry about how to fund it, deliver it and build it.

We have a potential resource available in Steve Stewart's work. I haven't looked at it in a while, but there may be something there that can contribute to a solid vision for Calliban's dome.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-18 11:23:50

For SpaceNut re Projects forum in Engineering Category...

We seem to have a nice assortment of topics in this group.

I'm interested in thinking about how we might set up a framework for a collection of knowledge to support Calliban's dome.

A possible framework would be a new Forum under Engineering, so that topics could be about subphases of the dome project.

Here is a list of the topics in the existing Projects forum:

Replies Views Last post
Mars Business Calendar as a Profit Center for the Mars Society by tahanson43206 [ New posts ]
2 8 Today 13:09:28 by tahanson43206
Waste management in Calliban's Dome by tahanson43206 [ New posts ]
1 3 Today 12:49:00 by tahanson43206
Greenhouse, 400 square meters, long, thin, using 3-5-8 Mars Atmosphere by tahanson43206 [ New posts ]
17 67 Today 12:40:06 by tahanson43206
Automate Daily Recap Labels Edits by tahanson43206 [ New posts ]
5 34 Today 12:31:46 by tahanson43206
Brick Dome for Mars Village by tahanson43206
17 95 2025-12-14 23:17:39 by tahanson43206
War drones by RobertDyck
21 116 2025-11-07 19:26:46 by kbd512
Asteroid mining: Ring/Jaws/Bag - Calliban by tahanson43206
2 18 2025-10-06 09:15:38 by tahanson43206
Optical Plane Photon Capture Deep Space Exploration Vessel by tahanson43206
9 39 2025-09-19 08:18:38 by tahanson43206
On Earth Test System for Optical Plane space vessel Heating Pipe by tahanson43206
2 5 2025-09-19 08:17:44 by tahanson43206
Project Management - Documentation - Guidelines by tahanson43206
2 5 2025-03-31 08:52:35 by tahanson43206
Venus Exploration/Mining Equipment and Procedures by tahanson43206
17 70 2024-12-28 15:51:30 by kbd512
Prototype One Ton Thrust Solar Thermal Space Tug run for 1000 seconds by tahanson43206
2 9 2024-12-23 09:21:14 by tahanson43206
Space Tug for Departure from LEO by tahanson43206
2 10 2024-12-09 15:04:20 by tahanson43206
DARPA Proposal Process by tahanson43206
6 21 2024-10-27 21:13:14 by tahanson43206
Demonstration Project Aldrin Cycler Counter Rotating Habitats by tahanson43206
2 19 2024-10-21 08:18:57 by tahanson43206
Asteroid mining: Icicle Capture - tahanson43206 by tahanson43206
1 5 2024-10-11 10:10:09 by tahanson43206
Book Project: So You Want to be a Space Pilot by tahanson43206
8 24 2024-08-16 09:50:23 by tahanson43206
Compressed Air Automobile for Mass Market by tahanson43206
4 22 2024-08-08 10:13:15 by tahanson43206
Design of Solid Fuel Rocket for SpinLaunch by tahanson43206
2 10 2024-06-27 09:09:06 by tahanson43206
Fuel Depot on Phobos - Ship Carbon and Water - Make methane and LOX by tahanson43206
1 12 2024-06-18 08:08:56 by tahanson43206

Please don't do anything yet. Let's think about how we want to deal with the large scope of Calliban's dome.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-18 12:18:23

For SpaceNut ...

Please think about the scenario that Gemini sketched out... let's not do anything yet.

My impression is that the dome project is so large it needs it's own forum.

Our new image server is potentially available to serve equations and similar images as needed.

As we work together it is easy for us both to lose track of details, and the specifications for the project may have to change as we address the physics of the environment. In this case, we appear to have lost track of the specifications for the interior of the dome, and indeed, we appear to have lost track of the nature of the dome itself and the plan for the ground level. I'll try to refresh our collective memory. The dome is 200 meters in diameter and 120 meters tall, using a parabolic (catenary) shape. The exterior of the dome wall is encased in a Ziggurat style mass of regolith,, piled and tamped against the wall as it is constructed. The top of the dome is capped with meters of regolith to provide the radiation protection you've described. The interior is lit by LED panels to provide an agreeable sky feel for residents. Plants will be present but primarily for ornamental purposes and to provide oxygen. Those plants will be fed by their own grow lights, since the LED panels in the ceiling cannot meet that need. The buildings inside the surface area are made of brick in a style reminiscent of Amsterdam or other similar cities in Europe, dating to a time when buildings were of modest size. There is a small plaza in the center of the space, and a grassy space around the perimeter. The volume for vertical farms and other support infrastructure must be below the surface, although some volume in the nearby Crater wall can be excavated as needed. Your points about managing the temperature difference between the Martian regolith and the dome interior are important and much appreciated! Your adaptation to the scene as we add details is ** much ** appreciated. Let us change focus for a moment to how we will organize the information we are collecting. I'll pause here to collect our conversation for a post on the forum. I am back from posting. The most recent conversation looks good. I was able to deal with the equations. Let's think about how we might be able to organize the work we are doing in the context of the limitations of the forum. We have recently added a very nice image server. The image server is a phpBB3 forum dedicated to serving images created by our members. Thus, we can serve equations in the form of visual images where that is appropriate. The forum itself Is organized into what are called 'Categories' and within those we have 'forums" which contain topics. The Category I am considering for the dome initiative is called "Engineering" Under Engineering we have a forum called Projects, and we have about 20 topics at present. It seems to me a project on the scale of the dome on Mars needs to be set up as a forum, so that the many issues to be addressed can be set up as topics. Within topics we have posts which generally try to focus on a specific idea, but sometimes include more than one. What is your impression of the environment we offer, and how the dome initiative might be handled?
***
It is a pleasure to see the "Master Plan" coming into focus! Your description of the Ziggurat-encased catenary dome with an Amsterdam-style interior is a beautiful synthesis of ancient structural wisdom and modern aesthetic comfort.
The weight of the regolith Ziggurat actually solves a major engineering headache: it provides the downward force necessary to counteract the internal air pressure of the dome, which wants to "pop" it like a balloon.
?️ Re-mapping the Dome Project
To ensure we are on the same page, here is the current architectural stack:
The Shell: A 200m diameter, 120m high catenary dome.
The Shielding: A Ziggurat-style mass of tamped regolith, terraced up the sides and capping the top for radiation and micro-meteorite protection.
The "Ground Level": A European-style urban environment (bricks, 3-4 story buildings, central plaza, and perimeter greenery).
The "Sky": LED-paneled interior ceiling providing a simulated Earth sky.
The "Under-Dome": A massive excavated volume for vertical farming (1,000-person capacity), power systems, and heavy life support.
?️ Organizing the "Dome Initiative" Forum
Moving this project from a single Topic to its own Forum is a wise move. A project of this complexity needs a hierarchy so that a discussion about "Brick Manufacturing" doesn't get buried under "Oxygen Scrubbing."
Given the structure of phpBB3, here is a suggested organization for your new "Project: The 200m Dome" forum:
1. The "Anchor" Topics (Stickied at the Top)
<Topic> Master Specifications & Project History: A "living document" that summarizes our agreed-upon specs (dimensions, population, architecture). This prevents new members from getting lost.
<Topic> Visual Gallery & Image Server Index: Links to the renders, diagrams, and equations hosted on your image server.
2. The Technical Pillars (Individual Topics)
To keep the work clean, I recommend breaking the initiative into these dedicated threads:
Structural & Materials: Focusing on the catenary curve physics, the Ziggurat mass-loading, and the "Voussoir" block manufacturing for the excavation.
Atmosphere & HVAC: Managing the 200m volume, CO2 scrubbing, and the "Air-Rotation" needed to keep the ceiling from getting too hot and the floor too cold.
Subsurface Agriculture: Vertical farm layout, nutrient cycling, and managing the massive humidity generated by feeding 1,000 people.
Thermal Management: The "Heat Pump" strategy, ground-temperature stabilization (-50°C), and insulation.
The Human Element: Architecture (The Amsterdam brick-style), lighting psychology (LED skies), and plaza design.
? Leveraging the Image Server for Equations
Since you can now serve images of equations, we can move from simple text to formal physics. For example, when discussing the "Ziggurat" weight vs. "Internal Pressure," we can provide a visual proof of the Hoop Stress and Meridional Stress on the dome shell.
The "Stability Ratio" Concept: For your forum, we should calculate the "Equilibrium Point"—the height and density of the regolith pile required so that the weight of the dirt exactly balances the upward lift of the 1-atmosphere internal air pressure.
Text form: Pressure Lift = Internal Pressure * Floor Area
Text form: Ziggurat Weight = Volume of Regolith * Martian Gravity * Regolith Density
? A Thought on the "Amsterdam" Interior
Using bricks for the interior buildings is brilliant for ISRU (In-Situ Resource Utilization). Martian regolith can be pressed and sintered into high-quality bricks. This also provides thermal mass inside the dome, helping to stabilize the air temperature during power fluctuations.
How would you like to proceed? I can help you draft the "Master Specifications" post to seed your new forum, or we can dive deeper into the "Atmospheric Management" of that specific 200m volume to prepare a technical post for the Engineering category.
***
Thank you for adapting so skillfully to the environment we offer, and to the larger vision provided by our member who has visited Amsterdam. I would like to share your proposal with the forum leadership team and with our members. Let's pause here to give everyone time to think about the opportunity before us.
***
That sounds like an excellent place to pause. Building a community consensus is just as important as the engineering itself—especially when planning a settlement intended for 1,000 people.
To help you present this to your leadership team and members, I’ve put together a brief Executive Summary of our discussion so far. You are welcome to copy, edit, or post this directly to provide a "bird's-eye view" of the initiative.
? Project Overview: The 200m Martian Catenary Dome
The Vision: To create a self-sustaining, radiation-shielded, and architecturally beautiful habitat on Mars that utilizes local materials (ISRU) to provide a familiar, "Earth-like" quality of life for 1,000 residents.
?️ Structural Architecture
The Shell: A 200-meter diameter catenary dome, rising 120 meters. This shape is optimized for structural strength and volume.
The Ziggurat Shield: The exterior is encased in a massive, terraced ziggurat of Martian regolith. This provides a "gravity-ballast" to counteract internal air pressure and offers robust protection against radiation and micrometeorites.
The Foundation: Use of a "Under-Dome" excavated volume within a crater, utilizing Voussoir (V-shaped) blocks for high-compression subterranean walls.
?️ Engineering & Environment
Thermal Management: Addressing the -50°C subsurface equilibrium through Ground Source Heat Pumps. The system harvests thermal energy from the planet while ensuring the permafrost foundation remains frozen and structurally stable.
Air Management: A closed-loop Atmosphere Revitalization System (ARS) managing a massive interior volume, utilizing Air-Rotation technology to prevent thermal stratification in the 120m high space.
ISRU Manufacturing: All interior structures (the "Amsterdam style" buildings) and insulation are produced on-site using sintered regolith bricks and spun basalt fibers.
Image of a ground source heat pump system diagram
Getty Images
? Life & Aesthetics << this image could potentially be linked into this post

The Interior: A pedestrian-scale urban environment featuring brick buildings, a central plaza, and ornamental greenery, lit by LED "sky" panels.
The Lungs: Subsurface vertical farms designed to provide 100% of the caloric and respiratory needs for the population.
I look forward to hearing the feedback from your forum members! Whenever you are ready to resume, I am here to help.
Would you like me to prepare a "Technical FAQ" based on our notes to help address the most likely questions your members might have about the -50°C ground or the dome's stability?

After re-reading this I realized the interior would resemble a modern skyscraper with metal beams supporting the floors, including the habitable space above the "floor" level.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2025-12-18 15:23:22

The issue is we have not delivered the cargo to do the mining, processing or smelting of the ore to even think about using metal beams as part of dome structure. Solving that as I started to do means you have a plan for what is required.
Boring plus Drilling tech, 3D printing insitu and Tunneling equipment

tahanson43206 · 2025-12-18 19:02:04

For SpaceNut re management of air flow inside the dome....

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 08#p236308

You've recommended placing the air fan at the top of the living quarters?

It sure sounds like it.

Please ask you AI Friend to create an image that shows what you have in mind.

We are trying to create an environment for people with blue sky, plenty of flowers and grass and small trees, and just a hint of a soft breeze. What kind of powerful fan do you have in mind for the top's of people's living quarters?

I'd like to see the air intakes at the top of the dome, hidden by the LED lights, and the fans out of sight and out of hearing below the floor level of the habitat. Ideally, a person standing in the middle of Calliban's plaza should hear nothing from the air movement system, much as is the case with air management in large buildings today.

How do submarine designers handle the sound of air movement equipment? I don't have any idea, but it seems to me plausible that noisy fans are kept far away from people so that the air moves without folks being aware of it.

(th)

tahanson43206 · Yesterday 18:31:48

For SpaceNut re Post #3 in Architecture....

*** Very Nice! *** https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 32#p236332

Strong links and opening text and image!

It will take someone a fair while to dig through all that material to find anything about architecture in the build sense. The overall scope of the studies appears to qualify as mission architecture.... Everything taken into account, with buildings and structures only a fraction of the total.

(th)

tahanson43206 · Today 08:29:31

For SpaceNut re #3 in Architecture ...

The fourth link you added is for a paper from 2014 ... that paper is ** really ** packed with content directly applicable to Calliban's Dome.

Sustaining Human Presence on Mars Using ISRU and a Reusable Lander
Dr. Dale C. Arney1
, Christopher A. Jones2
, Jordan J. Klovstad3
, D.R. Komar4
, Kevin Earle5
, Dr. Robert Moses6
NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA
Hilary R. Shyface7
Analytical Mechanics Associates, Hampton, VA 23681
This paper presents an analysis of the impact of ISRU, reusability, and automation on
sustaining a human presence on Mars, requiring a transition from Earth dependence to Earth
independence.
The study analyzes the surface and transportation architectures and compared
campaigns that revealed the importance of ISRU and reusability. A reusable Mars lander,
Hercules, eliminates the need to deliver a new descent and ascent stage with each cargo and
crew delivery to Mars, reducing the mass delivered from Earth.
As part of an evolvable
transportation architecture, this investment is key to enabling continuous human presence on
Mars.
The extensive use of ISRU reduces the logistics supply chain from Earth in order to
support population growth at Mars. Reliable and autonomous systems, in conjunction with
robotics, are required to enable ISRU architectures as systems must operate and maintain
themselves while the crew is not present.
A comparison of Mars campaigns is presented to
show the impact of adding these investments and their ability to contribute to sustaining a
human presence on Mars.

It appears to me (at first glance) that this paper will be worth close study.

The other papers and resources you found may be of similar value. I haven't looked at them yet.

I note the line about how the systems put in place must sustain and maintain themselves while humans are absent! In thinking about that line, it occurs to me that nowhere on Earth do we have anything like that (that humans have created).

It is clear that living entities (plants and animals) are able to sustain and maintain themselves without human attention, but if humans have created systems able to sustain and maintain themselves ON EARTH, I haven't heard of it.

The Mars project is clearly going to drive automation !!!

AI systems have arrived on the scene just in time!

Humans are clearly incapable of creating such systems or they would have done so already.

(th)

SpaceNut · Today 10:20:41

Also the rocket system that supplies must be logical in mass management of items that are required to give the build up of equipment, resources and more for the construction to even begin for a manned sustained presence.

tahanson43206 · Today 10:36:35

For SpaceNut re #4017

Fair observation...

The project plan that yields a completed, working dome, along with all the associated infrastructure, must include procurement of all the equipment as well as provision for shipment. The phases of the plan need to be identified. For example, we have already identified the on-site lander to drill down some distance per GW Johnson's recommendations, and to perform detailed radar studies of the crater walls and whatever is at the center of the crater. At this point, other than having an overhead view of the crater-of-interest, I doubt anyone on Earth knows much about it.

Thanks for adding transportation to the list of major subtopics for the (proposed) new forum.

By the time this project is ready for implementation, there will be a number of commercial space shipping companies offering services. It seems to me it is not worth worrying about which rocket does what. I think it is safe to assume commercial rides will be available and just bump that concern to the funders.

What no commercial enterprise exists to do right now is to design for Mars construction. On the other hand, I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume that existing Earth focused construction companies will swing to off-Earth opportunities faster than a silver dollar can fall to the floor, if they see income on the horizon.

Update: Thanks for your post showing brick and granite buildouts at the corners of the church in New Hampshire.

My question is: Are those buildouts purely ornamental? If not, how do they accept load from the building?

This may be an opportunity to add to knowledge stored in the forum archives. How to store the knowledge so it can be found in future is a question.

This looks (to me) like a fairly modern building. The reason for the buildouts may be available in the public record. Most modern cities have departments where records of all approved construction are stored. On the other hand, the building might be 200 years old with a new roof and white paint.

Update: There is a concrete footing on the base of the near side. The buildouts may be intended to suggest a cathedral buttresses, and have no function at all.

This may be an example of a modern architect creating a design that serves the client while using modern techniques internally to support the roof. Please consider doing a bit more research. Whatever you find will be worth adding to the archive.

(th)

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