Bipolar Mars Terraform Plan

Void · 2025-08-05 12:26:57

Conversations where I intruded on another members topic, prompt me to start this topic:
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 84#p233184
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 12#p233212
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 30#p233230
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 32#p233232
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 34#p233234
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 49#p233249
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 85#p233285

OK, now I can leave PhotonBytes alone in his topic. I am not against his concepts, but my efforts to supplement them has apparently been viewed more as harassment rather than to be assistive.

So, as it is Mars has two basic Hemispheres. And in general the South is highlands, and the North is lowlands. Exceptions are the Hellas Depression and perhaps the large shield Volcanos.

Any method of heating will tend to more heat the Northern Lowlands (and also the Hellas Depression) and less so in the Southern Highlands, and the other alpine areas.

So, perhaps we could run with this and develop the two hemispheres in different ways.

Pause............

I would think to melt and evaporate the Northern Polar Ice Cap, and allow the Southern Polar Ice Cap to actually grow.

The Northern Pole could be converted to "Farmland". The Southern Pole to a massive city in Ice.

Other targets are to evaporate any solid CO2 that can be evaporated into the atmosphere, by various terraform methods.

When I say "Farmlands", I suppose it would be wonderful to have open air agriculture. But it might not be possible to warm the North Pole that much. So, I would add the possibility to use inflatable and other domes, and also lakes, some perhaps ice covered, or dome covered.

So, a farming period might be 1/3 of the Martian year, the sunniest part of the year.

There should be seasonal snowfalls to irrigate this area.

As for the Southern Cap, as it expands, I anticipate hollowing it out with vaults and tunnels where a robot community could work at a temperature of perhaps -10 Degrees C. In the process of hollowing out this ice cap water could be melted and flowed though a system of rivers and canals and tunnels to irrigate the Hellas Depression. During the Southern summer then the Hellas Depression irrigation would donate snowfalls to the Northern Pole. During the Northern summer the farmland would donate water to the Southern Ice cap so that it could expand.

In this process, the footprint of the Southern Ice Cap, would be hollowed out somewhat but the water from the vaults and tunnels would eventually come back as snow and frost to expand the footprint of the Southern Ice Cap.

I see this as being the best way to handle Mars.

External energy from solar power in orbits could be a component of how all of this can work.

Ending Pending

Rivers flowing down hill on Mars would be self-heating, and would also conserve heat with a layer of ice.

When water flows in rivers, the motion of the water in part translates to molecular vibrations, so then heat.

And of course Hydroelectric power could be a useful byproduct of this flow.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-08-05 12:57:16)

Void · 2025-08-05 18:55:16

I do not regard this as a contest. Rather just a page in a notebook of possibilities for Mars.

My interest in the habitation of a polar ice cap is in part because of old Sci-Fi, and that some possible Mars futures might favor it. I will include some old drawings related to such notions:

In the above drawing heat can be pulled out of B and inserted to A perhaps by a heat pump.
But if heat buildup is too much then Hot water can be vented to atmosphere, to dispose of the heat.
This process would also provide more void space in the ice mass.

The south polar ice cap might be converted to a vast interconnected set of pressurized spaces where robots and humans could work.

As the coldest spot over time would be the South Pole, you could expect the vented water to come back as more frost and snow, unless it is split into Hydrogen and Oxygen by UV light. In that case then you get more Oxygen retained in the atmosphere.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-08-05 19:09:29)

Void · 2025-08-06 09:35:26

I have some unfinished business in this topic which I intend to address.

A further technique for regulating the climate of Mars and Earth could be Albedo alterations. Putting dust on the ice caps has been suggested by others in the past, and I have suggested mobile solar robots.

Dust application would possibly require repeats and would not generate power. Extremely mobile robots might be more expensive per resources than is necessary. I think the Germans came up with something, the bifacial solar panel.

https://www.forbes.com/home-improvement … ar-panels/
Quote:

Everything You Need To Know About Bifacial Solar Panels
Audited & Verified: Aug 1, 2024, 12:15am

Image Quote:

In the event of a danger of a glaciated planet, which happened previously on Earth and is sort of true for Mars now, these solar panels could be the solution that could modify Albedo, and generate electric power.

There could be a danger of a "Snowball" Mars, if too much water was lifted from the ice masses and allowed to refreeze onto the surface of Mars.

Currently on Mars Seasonal CO2 frost can damage equipment such as horizontal solar panels. Vertical Bifacial panels might survive the event better or be made so that they could survive the event.

Here is a case of damage on Mars from CO2 solid condensates: https://science.nasa.gov/resource/image … collapsed/
Quote:

Image from Mars Orbit Indicates Solar Panels on Phoneix Lander may have Collapsed

Quote:

Phoenix landed at 68 degrees north latitude, an area where the atmosphere and surface get so cold in winter that carbon dioxide forms a frost on the surface as much as several decimeters (one or more feet) thick. This frost, also known as dry ice, blankets the entire northern landscape each Martian winter, including any spacecraft that might be on the surface. The solar arrays on Phoenix were not designed to withstand significant loads of carbon dioxide frost, so scientists believe the western panel has collapsed.

So, for Earth, one thing we might do, if Earth entered an ice age would be to alter the albedo of the existing and forming ice masses at high latitudes and perhaps high altitudes.

Due to the Milenkovich Cycles, it is possible that a place like Sweden could develop summers so cold that ice and snow precipitation would not fully melt in the summer. Then ice and snow could build up. Then that buildup would reflect sunlight into space that would otherwise be absorbed by the surface.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles

Where I have expressed a preference to have an expanding ice cap on the South Pole of Mars and a retreating ice cap on the North Pole of Mars, this tool could be helpful to prevent the emergence of a "Snowball Mars".

Some people think that Mars has been "Snowball" at times: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/08/04/snowball-mars/

The use of partially mobile Bifacial Vertical Solar Panels on Mars, may allow an alteration of the Albedo of the exposed ice of Mars, and serve as a useful tool to terraform Mars.

If they could be made rugged enough to survive Martian winters, then periodically robotic systems might elevate or move downward the panels depending on the accumulation or losses of ice on the surface.

These panels also might double as heat exchangers to get rid of excess heat inside of an ice mass as per the shelters I have suggested previously.

Quote from previous post:

In the above drawing heat can be pulled out of B and inserted to A perhaps by a heat pump.
But if heat buildup is too much then Hot water can be vented to atmosphere, to dispose of the heat.
This process would also provide more void space in the ice mass.

Where first these methods might eliminate the permanent CO2 deposits in the South Ice cap and expand the atmosphere, also winter deposits if any would be evaporated sooner in the spring than normal. Large quantities of ice could be melted, to cool habitats, and to send rivers of water down an aqueduct system to the Hellas Depression and perhaps other depressions such as Argyle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_Planitia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyre_Planitia

This process might then generate Hydroelectric power on Mars. Ice covered rivers can run on the existing Mars, and in many cases, it is likely that flowing water would be covered by domes or be inside of tunnels cut in rock.

Ice dams could be a troublesome thing however, so that would require an expense to pay to regulate the prevention of them where not desired. Otherwise, permafrost dams are a useful thing that could be created.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-08-06 10:14:17)

Void · 2025-08-08 09:32:01

I came here for another topic, but since I am here I will comment a bit more on the just previous post here.

Bifacial Solar Panels could be good for polar areas on terrestrial planets in the case of Earth where a undesirable ice age might occur. I hear a lot about lots of volcano's just now.

What if it is important that the Earth overheats just a bit, as insurance against a sudden emergence of greater than normal volcanism which could ruin much of the farming we depend on?

In theory in an emergency, we could put bifacial solar panels in the interior of large fields of ice such as for Iceland, South Georgia, Greenland, and Antarctica?

I do not recommend it now, except as a small experiment to see how to do it if needed. We would be manipulating albedo, which would somewhat warm the Earth's atmosphere, and might help to melt ice to some extent. That would be to stop the sea levels from dropping too much.

Actually I might have liked the world of the last ice age for us if we could have redistributed the population, but in our current circumstances, a sea level drop and expansion of ice fields, would be economically harmful to the present so called civilization.

A problem on the Earth for this scheme would be winds that could be very strong and might blow bifacial panels over. Also, the panels would have to be repositioned as ice shifted in depths and structure.

Mars:
I think it is reasonable to say though that Mars is indeed in a snowball condition, but additionally most of its ice deposits are covered in dust and even rock. The rock I presume comes more from volcanic eruptions and secondary impacts from planetary impactors.

The planet seems however to be covered in many glaciers and ice sheets.

At the polar areas of Mars, however, winds should not be so much a problem for bifacial vertical solar panels. So, that is a major plus for Mars relative to Earth.

If we "Melt" Mars by some terraform method, thinking desires lush green fields of England I suppose. But that is not very well in reach. More likely snowfalls will increase the reflection of light into space. Bodies of water created may be likely be ice covered and then snow covered.

But Vertical Bifacial Solar Panels would act like Spruce Trees in our Northern Hemisphere.

It is my opinion that these trees have in part been terraforming the Northern Hemisphere: https://minecraft.wiki/w/Old_Growth_Spruce_Taiga

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spruce

https://treejourney.com/best-spruce-tre … jor-types/
Image Quote: OIP.yWnLYKKYeiVDFlPJHgxASwHaGL?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain&o=7&rm=3
As you can see here on occasion snow falls, and a combination of wind and sublimation can rid the trees of the snow, but the ground may likely hold onto unmeted snow much longer. At high latitudes light bouncing off the snow can often intercept the trees and cause warmth and even a bit of photosynthesis even in the winter, I believe.

We might hope to imitate this with Vertical Bifacial Solar Panels, and so alter the albedo of Mars where reflective water solids might accumulate.

About the trees and the ice age. My understanding is that the northern trees need about 2 weeks of weather above 50 degrees F, to reproduce. If they can reproduce and the permafrost soil melts to enough of a depth in the summer, then the trees can "March" north, and help to melt the ice caps on Earth. This may have assisted the melting of the ice caps in Europe and North America, as the Ice age ended.

It is not certain to me that these trees used to be able to reproduce with such a short reproductive season or to have tolerated shallow melts of permafrost. This could be a new adaptation that has altered the Earth's climate and contributed to destroying the Mammoth Steppe. Or perhaps these trees could have done this when other ice ages ended in the much deeper past. I don't know.

But if they assisted the melting of the on-land ice caps, they may also have provoked more open water in the north latitudes and so caused greater precipitation on the Mammoth Steppe and allowed the trees to grow into the Mammoth Steppe.

On Mars we will want to mimic this process, I feel as Mars is for more than one reason a cold planet an not likely to become warm, just warmer.

On the northern ice cap of Mars, I have supposed that the cap could be evaporated away or even melted to make a vast network of lakes and canals.

The atmospheric pressure in the Northern Lowlands can approach 9 millibars, I believe, and the land where the Northern Ice cap dwells, is pushed downward by the ice, so atmospheric pressure would be a bit higher if the ice could be cleared from that depression. Further, if the CO2 of the ice deposits can be evaporated then the pressure at this location could likely be >2.5 * 9 = 22.5 millibars. This would be much more protective from radiation than the current situation is. On a guess and being optimistic, maybe as much as 30 millibars.

So with the pressure calculator: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

So, the vapor pressure of water would be about 23.2977 for a 20 degrees C temperature.

However, I expect that lakes and canals will be ice covered, or dome covered or both at times.

As for the Southern Cap, it will be sort of Alpine in nature, and from my point of view the best thing to do is spread it out and collect the sunlight on it using Vertical Bifacial Solar Panels.

But of course, other optical methods for Mars could be used as well.

I do anticipate that early settlements on Mars will be at lower latitudes, but that some terraform techniques applied may make the polar areas more tolerable for subsequent settlements of robots and humans on and inside some ice deposits.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-08-08 10:24:16)

Void · 2025-08-09 11:34:00

While I have suggested polar solar which would be "Planted", like a spruce tree, various levels of "Animation" as in "Animal", are also options. Robotic systems could be incorporated into this perhaps resembling social insect processes, such as ants and bees.

So, if you have a massive body of ice, it should not be that hard to dig ice caves. These could be unpressurized. Solar harvesting equipment could be put away into such places if necessary to endure a winter condition.

Similarly solar panels that might even resemble a car freshener, resembling a tree, could be placed on a swivel bearing, as to be sun following. This would be a related form of "Animation" of solar harvesting equipment.

Solar harvest equipment might not be only photovoltaic, or even electric harvesting. They could also be thermal in nature.

We also could entertain inflatable bubbles that might be deflated for winter to avoid collapse from precipitation accumulations. Even if the sunlight intensity were not intense enough to sufficiently heat these, electrical or thermal power from solar energy devices could be used to make the interiors sufficient for photosynthesis.

A very simple version could be inflated to perhaps 10-50 millibar, and have an interior temperature just above freezing, and quite a few organisms could grow under those conditions. If you grew algae, or other microbes, those could be edible or productive in some other way. Also, others have indicated that you could grow mushrooms on organic waste from this process.

Anyway, agriculture would be possible on both of the polar areas in the summertime's, with "Midnight Sun" effects.

Robots and Humans could be sheltered inside of chambers in the ice masses.

Ending Pending

Using heat pumps, dual chambers could support sunless agriculture.

From a post in another topic, I extract this: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=11053&p=3
This whole post interests me:

Unfinished business, I think:
I found this last night, accidentally. I don't know how to validate it so I won't. But I feel it is "Unfinished Business" for me so I will put it here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uawATQk … ModoEnergy
Quote:
Pumped Thermal Energy: the Overlooked Storage Solution with Alexis Dole (SynchroStor)
Modo Energy
15.1K subscriber
I am worried about perpetual machine issues. I don't think that is the case here, but it does seem to be too good to be true.
Here is a blurb from "AI Overview" on my phone: Quote
SynchroStor is developing a novel, high-temperature heat pump designed for industrial applications. This heat pump is capable of operating across a wide temperature range, from -100 C to +400 C.Making it suitable for diverse heating and cooking needs in various industries. The technology is particularly notable for its potential to decarbonize industrial process by eliminating CO2 emissions from applications like industrial drying.
Quote:
Wide temperature range Unlike many commercial heat pumps, SynchroStor's technology can operate at both very high and very low temperatures. This makes it adaptable to a broader spectrum of industrial processes, including those requiring high temperature heat.
Here is another article: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/very-hig … from-wswue Quote:
Very high temperature heat pumps eliminate CO₂ emissions from industrial dryers
SynchroStorSynchroStor
SynchroStor
Decarbonising heat and energy storage
Published Nov 27, 2024
+ Follow
Architecture of a convective dryer
I had previously seen articles about a Norwegian heat pump that can reach 180 degrees C. This seems to be it: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/08/19/ … heat-pump/ Quote:
The world’s hottest heat pump
A Norwegian consortium has built an industrial heat pump that can reach a temperature of up to 180 degrees Celsius. The machine can be used with different industrial processes that rely on steam as an energy carrier and can reduce a facility’s energy consumption by between 40% and 70%, as it enables the recovery of low-temperature waste heat.
August 19, 2021 Emiliano Bellini
But the previous system claims to go to -100 to +400 degrees C.
I am wondering if a heat pump could cool a data center and produce high grade industrial heat and low grade industrial heat. But it may also have potential to store cold and heat.
Looks very interesting.
Ending Pending

From post #3 of this topic again:

Quote from previous post:

In the above drawing heat can be pulled out of B and inserted to A perhaps by a heat pump.
But if heat buildup is too much then Hot water can be vented to atmosphere, to dispose of the heat.
This process would also provide more void space in the ice mass.
Where first these methods might eliminate the permanent CO2 deposits in the South Ice cap and expand the atmosphere, also winter deposits if any would be evaporated sooner in the spring than normal. Large quantities of ice could be melted, to cool habitats, and to send rivers of water down an aqueduct system to the Hellas Depression and perhaps other depressions such as Argyle.

Looking at the chamber "A" and chambers in the bedrock or bedregolith, enough warmth could be sustained to perhaps foster various kinds of agriculture. Precision fermentation, Mushrooms, and also (We may hope), minimum light green agriculture largely sustained using Acetate. Ideally the total amount of light needed would be just enough for minimum human comfort. So, just for humans to see, and as signals to the plants as to seasonality.

About Acetate: https://modernfarmer.com/2022/07/artifi … synthesis/
It is not yet guaranteed that vascular crops could be efficiently this way, but perhaps if you had to you would give them 1/10th of the light normal and then also the Acetate.

Industrial Fermentation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_fermentation

Precision Fermentation: https://www.susupport.com/knowledge/man … -explained

At least at the south ice cap of Mars the thickness of the cap ice is much more than what might be needed, so it might be desirable to spread it out if convenient.

And so perhaps 300 feet of ice might be more ideal than say maximum feet.

But of course, I just annoyed the metric people:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_polar_ice_caps
Quote:

The thickness of Mars' ice caps varies significantly between the north and south poles:
The north polar ice cap (Planum Boreum) has a thickness of approximately 3,000 meters (10,000 feet), with the basal unit being nearly 1,000 meters (3,300 feet) thick.
2
The south polar ice cap has a thickness of about 3 kilometers (1.9 miles).
2
These ice caps are primarily composed of water ice, with some dry ice present in the south polar cap.
1

Two related units could be created which would be useful for Mars.
A Mars-Bar which would be the weight of 100 feet of fresh water in the Mars gravity field sort of gets there. That may approximate the water weight needed to create a water column sufficient to make 1 bar of water column pressure.

And then clean ice could be .90% of that.

But if we are making ice perhaps, we could make dirty ice so that 100 feet of dirty ice, will exert 1 bar of pressure. That "Dirt" does not have to be only dirt but could be basalt fibers to add strength.

But a unit of measure based on ~111 feet of clean ice might need a unit of measure created for it.

Some places on Mars already have sheets of ice approximately suitable to this sort of game.

But if the ice of the North ice cap could be persuaded to migrate to the south hemisphere, then as snowfall and frost, we might be able to "Pancake" that out so that we have an ideal thickness where solar equipment could be placed on top, and the ice be hollowed out with tunnels and vaults. This could have a much bigger footprint than the existing polar ice caps.

The total volume of tunnels and vaults could hold a great deal of "Air" which would help weather bad events like global dust storms.

Due to recent things, I have read, it appears that the undergrounds of the south hemisphere are considerably warmer than those of the northern hemisphere. So, for our expanded solar ice cap of the south hemisphere, there may be hopes of extensive geothermal energy to have during winter.

That is quite a bit.

In my mind wanting to duplicate the Earth on Mars with deep oceans is hard to imagine causing, and would be much less productive than an "Ice Relm".

A managed ice age on Mars looks good to me.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-08-09 12:39:36)

Void · 2025-08-09 13:53:31

Here is someone else speaking of ideas, I thought not compatible with this topic, but now I think would be compatible.

Many ideas are compatible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK4_6I5 … eekinSpace
Quote:

Earth on Mars - Terraforming the Red Planet
This Week in Space

Her ideas do not appear until later in the video. I have not finished, it.

A 100 millibar atmosphere of mostly Oxygen, would still be a very cold planet, but indeed could have a open air biosphere.

Actually a 333 millibar Mars would still be very cold.

In order for Mars to be as warm as Earth on average, it would need 2 bars of Oxygen/Nitrogen mix.

So, indeed I think my ideas of a Ice Age Mars would hold.

And the chance to have a healthy biosphere in the Northern Hemisphere, mostly and maybe Hellas, and the Southern uplands to be less favorable to a biology but with a large ice slab, quite inhabitable for humans and their robots.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-08-09 13:58:01)

Void · 2025-08-10 12:24:54

Included into this plan can be the two Mars moons.

If these moons lack Hydrogen and Water, Methane and a bit of Ammonia from Mars could be brought up there to make water and CO2 and N2 from reacting these with the regolith of these moons. This then may allow the creation of structure in the orbit of Mars.

These then could support missions from Mars to terrestrial crossing asteroids. Robots could do the bulk of the work, but things could be made out of the materials of these asteroids, and air-braked into orbits of Venus, Earth and Mars.

Of course eventually I want 10 Hygea, and Ceres in the loop but you have to start smaller than that, I think.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-08-10 12:28:58)

Void · 2025-08-18 13:56:18

If Mars would retain 1 or 2 polar ice caps, I have been thinking about how to turn ice caps into air tanks.

For Air I would indicate a mixture that is significantly of Oxygen and may contain portions of Nitrogen and/or Argon.

Of course I have been thinking about creating tunnels and vaults in the ice and perhaps lining them with balloons of plastic or similar.

I have been concerned about the potential for fire. For instance pure Oxygen at a pressure of 1 bar would be a bad plan, even if the plastic liner was in direct contact with water ice.

But I queried for some numbers on fire and Oxygen. At 16% Oxygen, fire is hard to sustain.

Query: "How much Oxygen is needed for fire?"
https://www.answers.com/chemistry/What_ … for_a_fire
Quote:

A fire requires approximately 16% oxygen in the air to sustain combustion, while the air we breathe contains about 21% oxygen, which is more than sufficient for fire to thrive.

Query: "And what do humans need for breathing?"
https://www.sciencing.com/minimum-oxyge … ing-15546/
Quote:

Not Enough Oxygen: Side Effects
Serious side effects can occur if the oxygen levels drop outside the safe zone. When oxygen concentrations drop from 19.5 to 16 percent, and you engage in physical activity, your cells fail to receive the oxygen needed to function correctly. Mental functions become impaired and respiration intermittent at oxygen concentrations that drop from 10 to 14 percent; at these levels with any amount of physical activity, the body becomes exhausted. Humans won't survive with levels at 6 percent or lower.
Read More: https://www.sciencing.com/minimum-oxyge … ing-15546/

So, if the tunnels and vault systems in an ice cap had 16% Oxygen fire would be hard to sustain. Also, with plastics near ice that can melt, and with temperatures low, say perhaps -10 degrees C, I anticipate igniting and maintaining a "Wild Fire" out of control would be rather hard.

I think though that if we dropped the air pressure from 1 bar to 1/3rd bar, then we could triple the Oxygen content.
So, 48% Oxygen 52% N2/Argon?

1/4 Bar would be dangerously low pressure for humans, but 64% Oxygen and 36% N2/Argon.

So, I am anticipating that an Oxygen concentrator could be used by humans when traveling in this environment: https://aroflit.com/products/1-5-l-min- … Ad+Group+1

If they have a compartment they live in in the system either a Oxygen concentrator or a slight pressurization of the tunnel air to make the Oxygen level acceptable.

Robots could work in these tunnels and vaults, and there waste heat might help keep the tunnels and vaults from getting too cold.

Oxygen could be obtained perhaps by splitting CO2, and if Natural Hydrogen can be found, then to farm microbes using CO and H2.

Otherwise, both CO2 and H20 could be split to both produce the Oxygen and the chemical farming.

Plastics would likely be created using biological materials.

Energy stability could result from consuming stored Oxygen and Natural Hydrogen. Otherwise, fuels could be created by splitting CO2 and H20.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-08-18 14:19:24)

Void · 2025-12-02 09:58:35

I have decided to invite myself sideways into a conversation about bricks and domes on Mars.

I think that a first consideration is site selection. A primary "Want" as vast amounts of water. So, that probably will be a giant ice slab.

So, in order to have a decent foundation for a brick dome, you are going to need to dig a hole in the ice to get to the relatively solid regolith below the ice.

With an abundance of ice available, my suggestion is to go ahead and make your dome of brick or other available materials and then cover it over with a mix of ice and regolith.

This is an interesting brick resource, but you would need to get lime and ash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjdfFgGbsvc

Quote:

Strength of Frozen Mud
The strength of frozen mud is significantly influenced by the freezing temperature and the presence of ice crystals. As the freezing temperature decreases, the shear strength of frozen mud increases, with a complex exponential relationship between cohesion and internal friction angle. The application of confining pressure also enhances the shear strength of frozen mud, making it more robust under shearing forces. However, the brittleness of frozen mud can lead to brittle failure when subjected to external forces, highlighting the importance of careful handling and consideration of freezing conditions in engineering applications.
DIY Home Improvement Forum

So, of course what I am suggesting is a cold dome. A shell of brick or other useful materials and then to add a soil icecrete layer on top of that. I would hope to incorporate water ice, soil, and plant fiber.

NASA has already studied "Ice Houses" on Mars, so, I am not that stupid on this.

https://www.spacexarch.com/mars-ice-house/
Quote: Mars-Ice-House_section_lr_2000.jpg?format=1500w

I am not trying to make a transparent structure though, so I have stronger hopes of success.

So, perhaps what you might do after you have created your thin dome would be to sprinkle created particles of soil and ice mix onto the dome and to lay "Straw" mats down intermittently over layers of that. Perhaps some ash would help, burnt straw?

Perhaps some sort of microwave process to melt it deeper down while compressing it with some sort of a plate like ram.

My guess is that this could be an excellent radiation shelter and could hold air pressure.

The dome will be cold inside, but could you make "Grass-Huts" inside of it?

Perhaps Adobe brick walls and a "Grass" roof.

https://depositphotos.com/photo/a-grass … 48046.html
Image Quote:

You would have to be able to grow some sort of vascular land plant, "Grass", and make artificial "Sticks" using those plants and some sort of glue.

So, I am hoping for some sort of plant that can provide fibers that might be grown using Acetate and Oxygen. We don't know if that is going to work out yet or not. We can hope for it.

The form of the "Dome" could be circular or Quonset, I feel.

While it would be nice to have various other "Modern" materials, for Mars, it would also be nice to have many bulk material options.

As far as heating the "Grass Huts", I think a limited amount of heating could be absorbed by the dome and the dome floor without sublimating the ice from the dome, particularly if a vapor barrier is placed over it.

But it might be a good idea to heat your huts using a heat pump to pull heat out of the air in the dome.

So, the dome might be cold like a windless winter day, but the insides of the grass huts could be very comfy.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-12-02 10:49:55)

Void · 2025-12-06 21:40:23

(th) Made a request. I tried to comply. Since I am confused as to what was desired, I will put the existing work to satisfy his original request here. https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 66#p235966

Quote:

This on this macro-scale will be my design:

Rather than to put a convex dome into a crater, I prefer on the macro Scale to visualize the greater structure as concave to the sky.

I wish also to include this sort of thing on a smaller scale: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7514

Quote:

With an electric power source you might maintain proper temperatures using heat pump technology.

And from the just prior post this:

https://depositphotos.com/photo/a-grass … 48046.html
Image Quote:
You would have to be able to grow some sort of vascular land plant, "Grass", and make artificial "Sticks" using those plants and some sort of glue.

My objective is to produce large amounts of structure using relatively low-grade materials to convert into resources.

But high-grade materials will also be used where it has merit.

It is late.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-12-06 21:53:48)

Void · 2025-12-07 09:54:34

So, at the core of this would be "Inflated, Frozen, Mud-Balloons".

Quote:

With an electric power source you might maintain proper temperatures using heat pump technology.

Probably the walls of the arch need to be much thicker than what I show here.

The Mud would be composed of dirt, water ice, and fibers. The fibers could be organic grown, or mineral wool, or plastic fibers of manufacture.

Regolith might be about 3.0 specific gravity, I think.

On Mars, about 100 feet of water can give a pressurization of about 1000 millibars. I believe that that is about 30 meters.

Ice is less dense so perhaps you need about 110 feet of ice to pressurize to 1000 millibars.

But dirty ice, will weigh more, depending on content. I intend to have a dominantly find regolith mix, with the minimum of ice to bind it together.

I will intend to include some fiber in the frozen mud mix.

I will go with the 3.0 number, so about 33 feet of mud will give 1000 millibars of pressure, if that were so.

There are certain pressure minimums.

Less than 100 millibars might be suitable to some non-vascular life such as Algae perhaps.

100 millibars is perhaps close to the tolerance for most vascular crops. It is not enough to sustain human life though.

250 millibars of Oxygen is probably about the minimum for human life to be sustained.

333 millibars of Oxygen may be more suitable for human life.

I think a mix of O2/N2 at 500 millibars or more would be better for human life.

Quote:

I will go with the 3.0 number, so about 33 feet of mud will give 1000 millibars of pressure, if that were so.

So, 16.5 feet for 500 millibars.

11 feet for 333 millibars.

8.25 feet for 250 millibars.

I would propose this sort of construction primarily to support agriculture, and to give extra space for human do things like walk around and run around.

The three sorts of agriculture I am aware of at this time are:
-Photosynthesis, natural light.
-Photosynthesis, artificial light. (LED's, Fiber Optics).
-Chemosynthesis.

The use of O2 and Acetate is the process of decay product simulation, supporting life.
Using an electrolyze process, O2 and Acetate are produced from CO2 and water.

These simulated decay world products apparently will support Yeast, Algae, and Mushroom life rather well, and vascular plants less well.

My hope is that by adding 1%, 5%, 10% lighting the vascular plants will do well. Artificial lighting is more expensive than natural light, but on Mars we cannot have natural light as you have to at least have a greenhouse glass.

O2/Acetate is less expensive than natural photosynthesis.

So, the balance of O2/Acetate dominant with a small amount of artificial light may be of an acceptable cost. Keep in mind that it is possible that fiber optics might work.

Ideally then you could grow crops which may provide not only foods but useful fibers.

Now, if someone wants to make glass domes, that is fine. But I am looking to provide bulk agriculture at a reasonable cost.

The mud domes will be filled with air, to help avoid collapse.

The domes may have a protective vapor barrier over them and may be shaded by solar panels as well.

The domes may have a poly type film inside of them to help hold air pressure and to help avoid freeze drying.

The domes may have additional supports if they can be afforded, made of stones, Plastics, and metals. Perhaps domes inhabited by humans may have this expense.

The domes will have a plastic dome inside of them that allows heat pumps to move heat away from the mud domes into a more interior space under such a plastic dome.

The domes may have water/ice pools inside or might have soils. Maybe soils to grow mushrooms, or soils to grow vascular plant crops.

I think it should be noted that Mars probably has lots of building materials for frozen mud domes.

Ending Pending

Frozen Mud Domes, do not prevent the creation of tunnels and vaults in the solid rock below: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 19#p233319

This would be an extra safety feature.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-12-07 10:37:26)

Void · 2025-12-08 10:53:52

Void the evil has rebelled against (th) and is revising site selection. Back to this: https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html

Image Quote: y8wdkgyDUgZPW7grfHTgZQ-970-80.jpg.webp

This ice slab seems to have "Splosh Craters".

Thise may allow for an Amphitheatre Solar Collection Scheme.
This scheme which might be applied to Korolev Crater could also be applied to some degree here:

Unlike Korolev, there is not a pool of ice in the center, but the crater itself seems to be carved out of a giant slab of ice.

We might place solar devices on the south facing inner rim. This could be solar panels or a collection of mirrors.

Yes, solar power on Mars is not as good as on Earth, but it exists. The other options that might come into play might be Nuclear, Geothermal, or Orbital Solar.

Orbital Solar only makes sense as if we are to make Mars to some degree a "Second Earth", The Earth soon will be likely to have massive orbital solar installations to support data centers, and to some limited degree perhaps to transfer power to and from the surface of the planet.

Some very important specs for the ice sheet are listed here:

The ice the scientists found measures 130 feet (40 m) thick and lies just beneath the dirt, or regolith, or Mars.
"It extends down to latitudes of 38 degrees. This would be like someone in Kansas digging in their backyard and finding ice as thick as a 13-story building that covers an area the size of Texas and California combined," Bramson said.

Kansas is close to the latitude of Spain, which is a place which will have winter sunshine, and is likely suitable for solar energy.

While Mars has dust problems/storms, it also does not have snows, or hail that we know of and the atmosphere is thin. We would not expect many clouds to block the sun.

When solar works at this location it should work well.

An interesting solar setup for Mars could involve Heliostat mirrors, Solar Panels to receive light from the mirrors, and a heat pump to extract heat from the solar panels to keep them cool/cold.

It is evident on Earth at this time that Heat Pumps could generate heat as much as 180 Degrees C. Expectations are that they will do better in the future. While during day time both Electricity and industrial heat could be obtained, at night heat could be rejected by the heat pumps and solar panels.

The Ice Slab Scheme needs things to be solved, but might offer some level of promise:

And keep in mind that this ice slab is the size of California and Texas.

We do not know what the regolith under the ice is like, perhaps sometimes it is rubble, (Icy or Dry), or a lava layer maybe with a lava tube, or Sandstone.

A Starship landed successfully in a VOID, without crash or cave-in then will instantly be much more protected from the Martian environment.

Once the VOID was sealed up it may even be possible to pressurize the VOID.

Some VOIDs could grow mushrooms, or maybe even Apple Trees.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-12-08 11:47:23)

Void · 2025-12-09 11:20:14

To follow up on the previous post I have introduced a "10 Foot" sea. This in part is to annoy metric people. As it happens 1 foot of water on Mars exerts approximately 10 millibars of water column pressure. So, for Mars as this is important, I see a measurement of this sort as useful. Metric people are a little to arrogant anyway. Cheeze eaters! I like cheese also though.

Flat areas under a Mars ice slab could be "Diked" off using earthen berms.

A layer of water perhaps 10 feet deep could be melted. The pressure under the ice and dirt above it would be perhaps a bit more than a "Bar".

The water would be kept just as liquid, that warm only. So, Arctic in nature.

But diving bells could be warmer, perhaps comfortable for swimming or washing perhaps.

The "10 Foot Sea's" would allow transport of materials and would help to expose useful minerals. The "10 Foot Sea's" would also support life using chemicals, fiber optic light, and perhaps other artificial lighting.

Chemicals could include Oxygen, Nitrogen, CO2, Acetate, Methane, and Hydrogen. Those last two need to be prevented from coming out of solution, by limiting their amount.

The consumption of these chemicals will produce heat of biological origins.

So, this could be biologically productive.

Some useful microorganisms might be supported, and perhaps some macro-algae.

Articles:
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 … -33208-2_4

Quote:

Crucial part of the Arctic marine ecosystem
Polar macroalgae are a crucial part of the Arctic marine ecosystem, playing a significant role in primary production and supporting various marine species. They are adapted to the harsh conditions of the polar regions, including extreme temperatures and limited light availability during the Polar Night. These algae have developed unique adaptations such as low metabolic activity, lipid storage, and the ability to form resting stages to survive periods of darkness. They also have the capacity to grow new tissues in darkness, which allows them to resume growth rapidly once light returns. This ability to adapt and thrive in challenging environments makes polar macroalgae vital for the health and sustainability of the Arctic marine ecosystem.

So, very likely to provide chemicals for these life forms, Solar powered methods to generate the chemicals will work well. The water could be charged to the limits with Oxygen to get over periods where light is lacking. The chemicals like Acetate might be stored to have for such periods of time as well.

The "10 Foot Seas" then could provide much that could be useful to a Mars settlement process.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-12-09 11:36:55)

Void · 2025-12-09 11:55:44

To append to the just previous post.

The heat in the "10 Foot Sea's" may increase too much. If you are dealing with fresh water then the water at the floor of the sea could be at as much as 39 degrees F, before turnover would happen. The water just under the ice would be 32 degrees F.

(3.88888889 to 0 C)

So we do not want to melt too much more of the ice above if we think that 10 feet is ideal.

So, if you have a nuclear reactor, you could use its electricity to run heat pumps to pull heat out of the bottom water. That could be used to heat things like habitats and Industrial Processes.

While you could melt the "10 Foot Sea's" with nuclear reactor water, the "10 Foot Sea's" will really be solar thermal heat storage.

First you generated chemicals that organisms could consume. Then the organisms gave off waste heat. The span of (3.88888889 to 0 C)
represents a mass storage of heat that a Heat Pump system could extract.

If you have saltwater things can get to be different. In fact it is possible to store much higher heats with salt gradients, but on the whole ice water may be very useful.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-12-09 12:02:32)

Void · 2025-12-09 12:40:05

As a supplement, to the previous two posts, Lake Bakal in Russia may provide species suitable for a freshwater ecology in a "10 Foot Sea" on Mars.

Occasionally a part of the salt water ocean gets slowly converted to fresh water. This seems to be the case for Lake Bakal.

So, it has some ocean similar life that is now adapted to fresh water. And it is a cold lake.

https://baikalfoundation.ru/en/our-work … ke-baikal/

Quote:

Lake Baikal is home to many species that are found nowhere else in nature. Among green algae such endemics are more than half of the total number: 52,2%. These algae play an important role in the functioning of Baikal’s phytobenthos (a set of plant organisms living at the bottom of the lake).
However, it is extremely difficult to study them – Draparnaldioides, Ireksokonia and Myxonemopsis cannot be cultivated and maintained in artificial, laboratory conditions for a long time. It is still unknown to science how these algae evolved.
In 2023, the Baikal Museum of the Siberian Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences presented a project to study algae of the genera Draparnaldioides, Ireksokonia and Myxonemopsis. The scientists set themselves the task of studying phylogenetic relationships and reconstructing the ‘family tree’ of algae, as well as expanding information on these Baikal endemics and adding to the world databases on algae.
The Lake Baikal Foundation supported the project as part of the grant programme for the conservation of rare, endangered and endemic species of the Baikal Natural Area.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-12-09 12:43:39)

Void · 2025-12-09 17:43:52

In relation to the regolith overburden on top of the ice, in the case where it is too thick it will need thinning.

Specific Gravity of ice: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals … A791140C52 Quote:

Professor P. L. Mercanton has sent the writer the results of some measurements of the density of clear ice at 0° C. in the Glacier de Saleinaz in 1917. These show densities of 0·9080, 0·9013, 0·9105 and 0·9050 respectively, giving a mean of 0·9059 gm./cc. Taken in conjunction with several measurements of ice with air bubbles, yielding values below 0·91, these results lead Professor Mercanton to the conclusion that for practical purposes it is preferable to use 0·90 rather than the usual 0·91 as the density of glacier ice.

If I try to estimate, then 9 feet of liquid fresh water could float on top of 100 feet of fresh water ice. (Ignoring that it would freeze and boil/evaporate).

I could not get the specific gravity of regolith on Mars, so:

Quote:

Copilot Search Branding
Images
Videos
Between 4 to 5
The specific gravity of regolith on Earth is a measure of its density relative to water. It is typically between 4 to 5, indicating that regolith is denser than water but lighter than solid rock. This property is crucial for understanding the mechanical behavior of regolith in various geological

So, that is a little rough on what I want to do, to be honest.

9 feet / 5 = 1.8 feet of regolith. I am going to suppose that 1 foot would be more trustworthy.

The natural amount of regolith on top of slabs of ice on Mars are considerably thicker. So, if you melted a 10 foot see at the base of the ice the weight of the regolith would weigh the ice down and the water would be squeezed up and out to the surface through cracks which would result from instability.

The necessity is that after the removal of excess regolith, probably a vapor barrier might need to be put down and then I hope a layer of compressed Mars regolith bricks/tiles.

In addition, it would be necessary to add solar equipment to provide sufficient shading to discourage mass wasting of the ice which has then been covered.

So, the total cannot weight more than a 1.8-foot layer of regolith would, and preferentially it would be less than a 1-foot layer would weigh.

So, not a free ride, but a possible method.

The excess regolith could be used to make berms, and otherwise might fill holes in the ice where all the water ice has been removed to manufacture things like rocket fuel with.

A different ice slab is looked at in this article: https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-news … ion-images

This one shows mass wasting on it's edge: Scarp_ESP_022389_1230_50cmpix_scalebarFINAL.png?itok=uuUaXXj2

Quote:

The study, published in Science today, shows there is low rock and dust content in the exposed ice. This means that relatively pure water ice, capped by only a thin layer of ice-cemented rock and dust, may be readily accessible to future exploration missions.
Quote:
For the first time, high-resolution images show the three-dimensional structure of massive ice deposits on Mars. According to an in-depth analysis led by the USGS, the images reveal never-before-observed details about the ice sheets, including that some begin just a few feet below the Martian surface and extend to depths greater than 300 feet.
So, the ice is farily pure and may be 300 feet thick or so. So, maybe can allow for a "10 Foot Sea".
“There is ice under roughly a third of the Martian surface, which records the recent geologic history of Mars,” said USGS scientist and lead author of the study, Colin Dundas. “What we’ve seen here are cross-sections through the ice that give us a 3-D view with more detail than ever before. Having this degree of detail is an important contribution to the growing body of knowledge about conditions on Mars.”

Should we obtain salt, the sea water might float a regolith burden a bit better.

I have already said what some of the utility of a "10 Foot Sea" might be, but will add that with proximately 1 to 3 bars of weight on the water, a fair amount of Oxygen can be dissolved in the water. Since it is cold water this will be further facilitated.

On Earth, N2 in the water partially displaces the amount of Oxygen that could be dissolved in the water. If I suppose that the ratio is about 4 of N2 to 1 of O2, then for Mars we might reverse that. 1 of N2 & Argon to 4 of O2.

So, perhaps 4 times as much Oxygen in the water as would be normal for Earth at 1 bar. If the pressure would be 3 bar then perhaps 12 times as much Oxygen could be stored in the water.

If we input controlled amounts of O2 and Acetate/Methane/Hydrogen then we can store the Oxygen while facilitating the metabolism of the organisms in the water. Nitrogen/Argon could come from the Mars atmosphere by eliminating the CO2. In reality if you input some Mars atmosphere and Hydrogen, the CO2 would be consumed and a residue of Nitrogen/Argon may accumulate. However, some of the Nitrogen may be fixed by the living things, (We could hope).

So, it may be necessary to find a way to extract excess Argon from time to time. But the Argon would be of some value.

So, in the case of a winter or a dust storm a "10 Foot Sea" may be an Oxygen supply that could be accessed for various reasons. And Acetate might have been stored to distribute to the sea at such a time. But Mars being a natural freezer, food production during winter and dust storms should not be necessary.

As I have said previously, if the temperature of the water is 39 degrees F at the bottom of the sea, using a nuclear reactor, you could have not only the heat from the nuclear reactor but might use heat pumps to pull vibrations out of that water to produce even more hot water.

So, perhaps not all of the 1/3 of Mars that has ice sheets underground could have "10 Foot Seas", but much of it could.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-12-09 18:34:42)

Void · Yesterday 13:01:06

I could not resist pushing the "10 Foot Sea" idea a bit further:

The white rectangles between the above ice and lower liquid water, are both floats and thermal insulators.

Plastics as we know them are said to be able to last 1000 years, if buried and protected from UV and some other things that might break them down. The rectangles might be filled with a gelatin like simulation of whale blubber with entrained air bubbles perhaps.

A submarine is a means of transport; it may have propellers or just ride on the seabed with skids or wheels.

As much as 1/3 of Mars may have sufficient ice buried naturally, to attempt this with. Not all will be workable but large parts might be.

And some places not currently suitable might be made suitable.

For instance this large body of ice might be melted from energy from space orbit: https://phys.org/news/2024-01-mars-evid … dusae.html
Quote:

This might create vast artesian springs, a large expanding body of water, and a raft of ice which might freeze on top of it.

To keep the ice from evaporating too much protection such as solar power devices may be place on top of the ice to provide shade, and vapor barriers created on top of the ice raft.

I would hope that this could be managed to be a gradually expanding body of water or several bodies of water.

Controlled melting of the ice body would be a desire.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 13:13:30)

Void · Today 11:44:38

A method to make useful buried ice at low latitudes that is not in a "Sheet" form could perhaps work to provide a utility to the Data Center technology that is being promoted by tech giants at this time.

https://phys.org/news/2024-01-mars-evid … dusae.html
Quote:

At two locations the overburden seems to thin out. At about 500 km and 950 km on the chart.

Perhaps 100 meters or even less deep the ice body is evident.

I have several notions. I think drilling might initially allow the injection of heat to create melt water in the boundary between ice and overburden. If you had two drill sites, could you pass an electric current between them to continue the melting?

This situation may become unstable though, so perhaps you need to float on something such as an ice raft may be useful. But to stabilize an ice raft on Mars you might want to use, Solar Shades, Vapor Barriers, and perhaps heat pumps.

Unlike Earth where we might prefer data centers in orbit to shed heat and get solar power, on Mars we might use waste heat from data centers to melt water and produce ice rafts and might send power from orbit to these data centers.

It is in the nature of water ice to float on 32-degree water and for that 32-degree water to float on top of 39-degree water.

39-degree water is the heaviest fresh water then.

(0 degrees C, and 3.88888889 degrees C).

So, if you use 0 degree water to cool your data center, then you might mix your warm or hot output water with more 0 degrees water. If you have a resulting temperature of 3.89 degrees water it will fall to the bottom of the basin.

With an unstable bottom as ice melts, it even so may be possible to run electric currents though the the mud under the body of water, or it may even be possible to force circulate water into the mud above the ice.

There could be sudden upsets, but the best desire would be to keep the melt process moderated, with a slow expansion of ice covered bodies of water.

It might be possible to do farming under the ice, using chemicals from the atmosphere. Also, Oxygen, and Fuels like Acetate, Methane, and Hydrogen. There could be artificial lights imposed under the ice, and possibly a method for fiber optics might work.

It would be desirable to input as much energy from space to these ice platforms, but also at the same time keep the ice raft intact and not melted or evaporated.

>>>>>>>>>>>

Another location which might use this location could be in Candor Chaos.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne … 180979267/
Quote:

Beneath Canyons on Mars, Astronomers Find Potentially ‘Water-Rich Area the Size of the Netherlands’
A Martian orbiter located a large reserve of hydrogen in a mountainous area of the Red Planet
Elizabeth Gamillo
Elizabeth Gamillo - Correspondent
December 20, 2021

This ice does not seem to have as much overburden, but we do not know how deep it is.

So, actually while I do think about working with the polar ice caps of Mars eventually, it can be that we can do such work at lower latitudes prior to that and perhaps upgrade the climate of the planet before going to higher latitudes.

But I think that combining Ice, Water, Data Centers, and orbital power, could be very good for Mars, Note that instead of using our Moon to lift materials to orbit, Phobos and Deimos almost do not have gravity wells.

Ending Pending

This article can suggest how solar panels could be used to help protect ice rafts on Mars.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/technol … r-AA1S9tWc
Quote:

Solar-panel crops reveal a result that could change farming
Story by Cassian Holt • 6h •
8 min read
Markets today

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 12:36:57)

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