Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

Void · 2025-08-16 12:32:56

Some further thoughts about the two just prior posts.

So far, we have seen plans for a Starship with four active flaps. A quadruped with all around active flaps.

I have wondered if two of the flaps could be static. Not a requirement, but a possibility. Of course, less back-up control if you do that.

But I have also suggested a splitting ship. It would do the horrible burn though the upper atmosphere as a whole structure, but split, somewhere in the troposphere, to do separate landing methods. The "Locomotive" would land on a platform, and the "Cargo Capsule" do a somewhat aided landing in the sea, using airbags, maybe Dragon thrusters, and if necessary, parachutes. (Parachutes may be a nasty expense).

But for this scheme could we allow for more than 4 flaps? I suggest that 6 might be enough. The "Locomotive" to have 4 of them and the "Cargo Capsule" to have 2 of them.

In some scheme or another 2 flaps would be static.

The extra flaps would offer more drag, but be a drain on cost. But they may be worth it.

Let's say we do 6 Starships that stay in orbit, and 1 that is a return, a Hexapod return.

We have avoided 4 * 6 flaps, = 24 flaps being lifted from the Earth, plus the motors and their support.

For the return ship we have added 2 extra flaps, and they might be static, not needing motors and motor support.

For the return Starship, the extra flaps add drag on reentry, giving assistance to the shedding of heat from atmospheric impact.

On the way up, it is possible, at least in my mind to align the 6 flaps to produce the least amount of drag.

So, I would consider that to be a win.

Thanks,

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-08-16 12:36:00)

Void · 2025-08-17 09:24:32

A factor I have been thinking about is propellant margins and cooling methods. I would expect that many notions about the rocket equation limit the amount of excess rocket propellant margins that can be allowed.

If you can predict perfect performance, then maybe you can calculate to almost the last drop, but if you have various mechanical failures, or variable payloads, you might need to keep greater margins of propellant in the main tanks. The Headers are likely calculated to provide almost the exact supply needed.

For a Propellants to Orbit Starship, this might not be such a problem, but for other Starships, including Expendable/ Not Really, it might be preferred to have extra margins at an additional cost. I would like to make those extra margins useful if possible.

Turning extra propellants into coolants would be the goal.

Where, extra Methane and Oxygen, offer the Methane as a coolant, I consider that the Oxygen as a coolant may be quite dangerous to attempt as it typically wants to Oxidize things.

So, I suggest reacting excess Methane and Oxygen while in orbit, and then cooling those products off in orbit, then perhaps using them as part of a reentry heat shield method.

Another possible source of such coolants could be packing materials, that become a part of a garbage stream, and perhaps Oxygen from the Moon.

So, I am imagining that there are four main types of surfaces to give heat shield protection to.

1) Cargo Holds.
2) Main Oxygen Tank.
3) Main Methane Tank.
4) Other, such as engine bay walls.

A Starship in orbit might have its belly coated inside with these materials. Possibly Dry Ice for the Main Oxygen and Methane Tanks. This then may have some ability to protect the metal from reentry heat.

For the Cargo Hold, I am thinking of a wicking material which would use capillary action to distribute liquid water to the inner walls of the Cargo Hold. You would need tanks of water that could give the water to be distributed. The internal air pressure could be regulated. A lower pressure would allow a lower temperature of vaporization.

This calculator can suggest things to consider: https://endmemo.com/chem/vaporpressurewater.php

100 degrees C steam might harm people or things exposed to it. A pressure of 1019.0135 millibars is calculated.
But with a little protection such as a protective suit, it might be tolerated.

75 degrees C would still have burn dangers, but less so, and would give a pressure of 384.6636 millibars, which would be enough that a human with protection might not die from vacuum exposure.

Regulating such a pressure would be a danger as well, as some Soviets died, I believe in a depressurization event.

My expectation would be that any humans on board would be hosted in another compartment that does not have a "Hot Wall" during atmospheric entry.

I don't know if a "Wick and Water" method could be adapted to the Main propellant tanks. It might provide a contamination that could not be tolerated.

I again mention the possibility that Lunar oxygen could be reacted with Organic Wastes to produce Coolants as well.
We also have the possibility that coolants such as Water and CO2 could be brought in from other worlds, at some point if the technology is proven to be suitable for it.

While then methods I have mentioned may have some value, I anticipate that some use of additional Ceramic or Active Cooled metals will be needed in the hotter places.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-08-17 10:01:04)

Void · 2025-08-17 10:36:09

To continue with the previous post, it might be possible to bring Paraffin Wax to orbit to react with Lunar Oxygen, if Lunar Oxygen were made available in LEO. To produce primarily the potential coolants CO2 and H20.

I have hopes that Neumann Drive and/or Magdrive may become assistive to bring Lunar Oxygen to LEO.

Ending Pending

It is possible that Liquid CO2 could be used somehow in the Main Tanks, but this would require a great deal of CO2 to get a high enough pressure for liquid CO2.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-08-17 10:40:52)

Void · 2025-08-17 17:57:29

As usual, asking the internet about the composition of Phobos and Deimos is giving ambiguous answers.

Some people hope that one or both of them will have ice in them. I feel that if they do, it would be hard to get to it, as it probably is deeply buried.

But I would also be interested in Hydrated Minerals, Carbon, and Oxygen.

Of these, I think Oxygen can be guaranteed.

So, I am looking for resources that would facilitate air braking on Mars and landing on Mars.

I am guessing that a first visit of Mars could have robot ships travel directly to the surface of Mars, to facilitate a first visit/base for humans and their robots.

But over time I a thinking about a prolonged nurturing of a settlement(s) on Mars, assisted by Earth, and in part supported by the materials of Phobos and Deimos.

As I see, it at a certain phase of settlement, it would make sense to make Starship Bodies to land on Mars that would have a onetime heat shield method.

These would fly to LEO without Flaps-Motors and would be escorted to Mars orbit by some form of electric propulsion.
Their Raptor engines could be removed in LEO, and recycled back to Earth surface for reuse.

In Mars orbit they would be outfitted with the means to land one time. This could include special landing engines, and recycled flap-motor assemblies. A source of CO2 might be in the moons of Mars and this could possibly serve as coolant and be split to provide propellants for landing, CO and O2.

Here again much of the landing gear might be recycled back to orbit to land other ships. Legs, Engines, and Motor-Flaps could all have their own active cooling, and be recycles back to orbit. If Phobos and Deimos have no Hydrogen or Carbon then I guess a coolant would have to be brought to orbit. Perhaps a fuel like Methane. Although that could be stretched into more coolant by reacting it with Oxygen from one or both of the moons.

Entering the Mars atmosphere from Low Mars Orbit will be much less stressful than an entry from interplanetary space. So, the heat shielding methods will not be as stressed. The Starship shell might have the ablative emergency layer only that SpaceX has developed. But it might be possible to attach ablative or other types of heat shield patches on top of that, where the worst heating might be. These ablative or burnable additional heat sheid patches might come from the materials of the moons Phobos and Deimos, along with Oxygen and maybe Carbon for coolants.

Some animals reproduce by making lots of eggs, and leaving them to their fats. But often more complex, and we might claim more advanced creatures nurture their young. So, this is not much different than that. It seems like companies like SpaceX may be able to mass produce Starship bodies from Stainless Steel, and that these bodies could be quite useful for settling Mars and other worlds. However, I think strait line distribution with maximum efficiency makes more sense than traveling Starships back to Earth, except for rare cases where humans and samples are to be moved from Mars/Phobos/Deimos, to Earth/Moon.

I am hoping that MagDrive or Neumann Drive will eventually be effective/efficient methods to move the Starship bodies to Mars orbit using metal propellants. But I suppose electric with Argon might be another option.

I do not see fault in moving solar panels to Mars orbits. Those might be from electric propulsion devices that move the materials to Mars orbit. Even if light is attenuated by Mars orbit, a very thin mirror system, and light weight could make them perform more towards their maximum.

It seems possible that solar panels of advanced types might reach 37% efficiency which may make them more practical than they are now.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-08-17 18:33:59)

Void · 2025-08-18 14:56:56

Just a notion. It might use too much coolant though:

Maybe could be used for some things.

Ending Pending

Void · Yesterday 12:55:28

Further thoughts on the prior post, "Wick Cooling".

A combination of external and internal "Wick Cooling" might be useful.

It is possibly in the nature of wick cooling that hot spots will draw more coolant fluid to themselves, so that if some failure occurs in the external heat shield, the internal wick shield might cover the problem well enough to allow the ship to survive.

We also could consider a "Squirt" gun in open spaces such as the Oxygen or Methane tanks, a robot that might squirt a coolant at a Infared visible hot spot. Mayb CO2 would work, maybe Nitrogen. Of course, you would not want to damage things with thermal shock either.

Ending Pending

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#126 2025-08-16 12:32:56

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#127 2025-08-17 09:24:32

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#128 2025-08-17 10:36:09

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#129 2025-08-17 17:57:29

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#130 2025-08-18 14:56:56

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

#131 Yesterday 12:55:28

Re: Multi-Ship Expeditions, Starboat & Starship, Other.

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