Pluto Realms

Void · 2018-05-30 13:14:14

I at first was not at all enthusiastic about what could be done with Pluto, Charon, and the small moons of the system.

However, in a solar civilization, I now see that metals and other non-icy materials could be sent to Pluto/Charon to start up a subpart of that civilization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto
Quote:

New Horizons observations showed that atmospheric escape of nitrogen to be 10,000 times less than expected.[121] Alan Stern has contended that even a small increase in Pluto's surface temperature can lead to exponential increases in Pluto's atmospheric density; from 18 hPa to as much as 280 hPa (three times that of Mars to a quarter that of the Earth). At such densities, nitrogen could flow across the surface as liquid.

So, I gather if a relatively small amount of additional energy were added to the atmosphere of Pluto, perhaps an air pressure suitable to humans. Still a tricky environment, liquid Nitrogen rivers and such. But not that much worse than Saturn's moon Titan.

As for atmospheric loss, if that is somehow a concern, then an artificial magnetic field perhaps to help retain atmosphere.

......

As for metals and other non-icy materials, I suggest mass producing tiny robot spacecraft that can navigate on the solar wind. One possible electrical power source for them would be the difference between their speed and that of the solar wind.

The intention is that they would impact themselves to an atmosphere or surface of Pluto or one of it's moons.

The way this would be paid for would be in the building of habitats for humans to move to.

However, in the long term, I would want to mine Charon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon

I am aware that the ice layer is very thick. However, I am thinking it could be removed to a new moon, or synthetic gravity machines.

The new moon would be so large that it could have a sea inside. Inside the sea, human habitats.

Once the ice had been sufficiently removed from Charon, then a sea would be established with a pressure on the rocky surface of Charon of pressures tolerable to mining. Over time, the pressure could be reduced to an average of 1 Bar.

So, then if humans could rise to such a level of ability then Kepler belt Dwarf planets of a small size could become sources of minerals.

Then off to the Oort cloud.

Energy for this? Well some would say solar concentrating mirrors, but I am guessing that fusion will eventually become a human ability.

I am interested in the Barycenter between Pluto and Charon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycenter
Quote:

When the two bodies are of similar masses, the barycenter will generally be located between them and both bodies will follow an orbit around it. This is the case for Pluto and Charon,

So, the question is if the atmosphere of Pluto were inflated to 1 bar, (If that is possible), would the Barycenter be within the atmosphere of Pluto? If so, then could you fly a winged aircraft to the barycenter? Just items of curiosity.

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-05-30 13:38:09)

tahanson43206 · 2024-10-23 20:43:38

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time...

Index:

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 65#p231865
Calliban: report of new candidate dwarf planet: 2017OF201

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-10-23 20:46:32

An unexpected article about Pluto showed up in the Internet feed...

This article is from the Smithsonian Institution...

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- … wtab-en-us

The article includes a number of images.

One quote caught my eye ... Pluto and it's moon Charon may be habitable, in the sense that they have plenty of useful elements, and Pluto appears to have an internal heat source that may sustain a liquid ocean under the surface.

(th)

Void · 2024-10-24 20:00:46

Pluto/Charon is interesting. Apparently due to heavy molecules formed in the atmosphere of Pluto, it can hold on to it's Nitrogen.

It seems that Charon's crust may contain a minority of Silicates according to some theories.

With fusion this could be very useful.

Ending Pending

Calliban · 2025-05-24 05:02:57

Introducing 2017OF201, the solar system's most recently discovered dwarf planet candidate.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_OF201

This object has a highly eccentric orbit. Its perihelion is 44AU. Its aphelion is an enormous 1600AU. It may in fact be a scattered body from the inner Oort cloud.

Whilst these objects may not at first appear to be promissing places to live, they have the advantage of being heat sinks. One of the limitations on free space habitats, us the need to dump waste heat into space, which can only be done by radiation. This limits the size and density of habitats, as radiator area ends up dominating the size of the structure. With a heat sink, these limitations are removed.

Imagine building an O'Neil cylinder 20km wide and 50km long. The internal surface area would be about 3000km2, about the size of a county. Now imagine decking the inside, with 10m between decks. Internal land area is then 1.5million km2. That is about half the size of the continental US. Such internal subdivision would be impractical in free space, because the waste heat generated by the lighting of this much land would require a radiator hundreds of thousands of square km in area. But if we build our hab on an icy body, we can pump water through it and use the volume of the body as a place to dump heat. Such a large and cold body would take many tens of thousands of years to melt.

Last edited by Calliban (2025-05-24 05:11:57)

Void · 2025-05-24 11:28:35

It is always possible that I do not understand correctly. It seems to have been said that for most of its orbit, the object could not have been detected from Earth with current technology. So, that suggests to me that there could be an enormous amount of objects, similar that are not currently observable. But that is not certain at all, it is a maybe at best.

I have on occasion tried to think of a solid radiator. The solid would be first cooled by radiation into the universe, but then would cool a secondary device by contact and conduction.

I do not feel that I can yet offer a potentially practical solution yet.

Obviously, a pile of metal dice on the Moon, could be "Flowed" into a machine and presented to a flat surface to convey their low vibration state onto the plate, then sent back out to the Moons surface to cool again.

Selective magnetism might be helpful, perhaps the dice could be ceramic but with some magnetite inside of them. To do this vacuum welding has to be avoided.

This brings questions about vacuum gap and conduction. Does heat flow into the "Die", only through physical transfer of vibrating molecule to molecule, or is there a radiation transfer across a very small gap?

Will the photons flow from the hot plate to the "Die" because of the proximity of the cold "Die", or must molecular vibration atom to atom be the only way of transfer?

If you have an opinion, I am interested.

Lets go the other way and consider hot marbles. If they are heated, then we cannot use magnetism, most likely as it would be above the curie point.

We could use gravity or synthetic gravity though, I think.

Can we heat up our marbles in a device, such as a solar concentrator and "Flow" them into a storage area?

Here, if we then "Flow" them to a boiler, contact will transfer some heat, but photons from the hot marbles will transfer quite a bit more.

It is not that I think I have a practical machine yet, but a means to visualize some questions.

But I am interested. Technically in microgravity it might be possible to magnetically manipulate the "Dice", to be exposed to the universe to cool, for instance if they heated above the curie point they could be ejected outwards, but upon cooling a magnetic field might suck them back towards the radiator, to make contact.

Again I do not propose that I have created a practical machine, but a set of questions instead.

Isaac Arthur seems to think that Mirrors will work for solar power even in the Kuiper Belt. I would have supposed out to Saturn. If we have fusion or solar, then we may want good radiator method.

A somewhat metal disc might do as well, if the radiator could move on it, and clamp the condenser to the surface, by a force, such as magnetism.

It might be that a practical machine will be created some day.

Ending Pending

Perhaps a solid ring of material which the condenser could physically embrace the small circumference of for the promotion of physical contact. And still I wonder if close proximity promotes faster photon transfer of energy across a very small vacuum gap, or if vibrations must transfer molecule to molecule by touch.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-05-24 11:55:30)

Void · 2025-06-06 11:42:50

I suppose that technically this new discovery is vastly beyond Pluto/Charon, but I have not done much in terraforming for some time, so I will put a copy here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1FVewU
Quote:

An Extreme Dwarf Planet Discovery Challenges Our Understanding of the Solar System’s Outer Frontiers
Story by James Thompson • 4d •
4 min read

Quote:

“2017 OF201 spends only 1% of its orbital time close enough to us to be detectable. The presence of this single object suggests that there could be another hundred or so other objects with similar orbit and size; they are just too far away to be detectable now,” said Sihao Cheng of the Institute for Advanced Study, underscoring a discovery that is quietly rewriting the map of our solar system (Live Science).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_OF201
Quote:

2017 OF201 is an extreme trans-Neptunian object and dwarf planet candidate, estimated to be at least 550 kilometres (340 miles) in diameter. It was announced in 2025 by Sihao Cheng, Jiaxuan Li, and Eritas Yang, who discovered the object in archived telescope images from 2011 to 2018. With an absolute magnitude of between 3 and 4, 2017 OF201 may be the brightest known object in the Solar System that does not have a directly estimated size. The orbit of 2017 OF201 is extremely large and elongated, bringing it from 45 to 1,630 astronomical units (0.00071 to 0.02577 ly) away from the Sun.

So, from the orbit of Pluto/Charon out to the Inner Oort Cloud.

Good chances it does not resemble Charon, but since we have no pictures, I want to compare the two.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_(moon)
Quote:

Charon (/ˈkɛərɒn, -ən/ KAIR-on, -ən or /ˈʃærən/ SHARR-ən),[note 1] formal designation (134340) Pluto I, is the largest of the five known natural satellites of the dwarf planet Pluto. It has a mean radius of 606 km (377 mi). Charon is the sixth-largest known trans-Neptunian object after Pluto, Eris, Haumea, Makemake, and Gonggong.[19] It was discovered in 1978 at the United States Naval Observatory in Washington, D.C., using photographic plates taken at the United States Naval Observatory Flagstaff Station (NOFS).

So, one characteristic, size is similar between 2017 OF201 and Charon.

I have been thinking about Charon off and on. Presuming some form of fusion power, it is a reservoir of fuel, I presume. Reading of theories of its structure there is some hope that the crust is mostly undifferentiated. That might mean rocky materials in the ice after all.

Theoris of structure, (Image Quotes):

So, not just a big ball of water ice as I had thought.

So, could hollow worlds be built of these materials and anchored in a "L" type location, or a Barycenter? Or in the case of a single object, perhaps orbit it like a moon?

So, if silicates are in the crust, then metals and glasses, also with a distribution of Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen organic structure like wood or ropes.

It seems like we are getting hints of fusion being closed in by various efforts, once that might become true, then these worlds may not be the wastelands we currently may think them to be.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-06-06 12:23:47)

Calliban · 2025-06-06 18:24:40

Void, that is interesting. One thing that surprised me (though probably should not) is the sheer size of the Hill's sphere for Kuiper belt objects. Out beyond the orbit of Neptune, even small dwarf worlds can have gravitational influence over a vast region of space. A body like Charon could be mined and used to build a swarm of habitats in Pluto orbit. The barycentre between Pluto and Charon, could be one such conglomeration.

Most of the mass needed to build a space habitat is shielding. This can be made from almost any material, including water ice.

Last edited by Calliban (2025-06-06 18:27:15)

Void · 2025-06-06 19:21:04

Yes indeed. You might like this if you have not seen it before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNRQFKV … saacArthur Quote:

Colonizing Pluto & The Acheron River
Isaac Arthur
813K subscribers

So, a space elevator between Pluto and Charon, crossing though the barycenter.

The idea that "2017 OF201" may have a hundred or more siblings, is of great interest. As you have pointed out the hill spheres maybe enormous.

In taking these things largely apart, quite a lot of structure could be manufactured. One somewhat weird idea would be to extract the materials and make a giant ball of "Foam", encompassing the entire Hill sphere if that were possible.

Foam: https://www.slideshare.net/slideshow/fo … 6/24926136
Quote: foam-4-1024.jpg?cb=1375663685

If the "Foam World" were made in the shape of a red blood cell this might help to radiate heat out.

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/phot … /637422184
Image Quote: red-blood-cells-in-vein.jpg?s=2048x2048&w=gi&k=20&c=fhK0Llv0kjJhOM-94raBD737ryzhBz1F0KFdEp_xDpU=

So converting a whole dwarf planet to one shape like one blood cell and having an internal structure like foam, maybe cells in cells so to speak.

The hill sphere would be modified by the warping of the shape.

A cross between a torus and a disc.

In the case where the world is beyond the Heliopause, then perhaps to be able to collect interstellar gasses and dust. A greater density may exist where the solar wind collides with the interstellar winds.

Various cells within could have features like spin gravity devices, and seas perhaps.

So, perhaps worlds that will be giant spaceships, and seek out other dwarf planets to convert, perhaps even rogue dwarf planets.

Even to travel to "Feed" on the Heliopause of other stars, to migrate though the galaxy and maybe even further. Even the spaces between galaxies are said to have some stars.

An interesting fate for the human race and their machines, if the higher powers allow it.

If there are as many dwarf planets as may seem at this point, and if fusion does become practical, then rather than a great interest in Dyson Spheres, which seem to be of doubtful merit, this would be the path of higher civilizations, and they would be rather hard to detect wouldn't they.

So, Isaac Arthur might consider carefully interested Aliens, perhaps. If they were interested, they could take over our robots. In fact they would introduce us to robots, so that we would depend on the robots that they would take over. Scarry!, but not Scarry.

Actually other than anthropology I don't think they would want to spend their time messing with us or messing us up.

But they could keep an eye on us from a distance once they introduced us to computers and robots. We will probably be beaming information between planets and they could probably intercept it.

But they might never introduce themselves to us.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-06-06 20:01:26)

Calliban · 2025-07-01 14:03:47

This is interesting.
https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-n … 032520166/

In the past, Pluto's atmospheric pressure may have been up to 28KPa. The temperature of Pluto is close to the nitrogen triple point. This means that a small increase in temperature results in a disproportionate increase in atmospheric pressure, as nitrogen sublimes.

If humans introduce atmospheric nanoparticles, the resultant global warming effect should be sufficient to trigger the sublimation of solid nitrogen on Pluto's surface. Once pressure is sufficiently high, areas of land can be made habitable by erecting tents filled with breathable air. The air within can be heated from ~70K to 250K, using nuclear waste heat. There is no difference in pressure between the inside and outside of the tent. But outside, the nitrogen atmosphere would be far colder and denser than the air within. So the tent must withstand bouyant forces. But these are fairly minimal. On the order of 50Pa. So a simple polyethylene sheet drapped over a thin metal frame, shouod be sufficient.

Whilst Pluto is unlikely to be turned into an analogue of Earth, it may turn out to be one of the easiest objects to make habitable for humans. It doesn't need a biosphere, just an atmosphere that we can built non-pressurised enclosures under. The same may be true of Triton, Eris and Titan.

Last edited by Calliban (2025-07-01 14:10:07)

Void · 2025-07-01 15:06:00

I am in strong agreement with you on that Calliban.

In the case of Titan, presuming no evidence of life is found, I think warming the atmosphere to a 50%/50% N2/CH4 would be interesting, provided that Titan would not begin to lose a lot of atmosphere.

Such an atmosphere may be good for air breathing aircraft, which would need on-board Oxygen.

I can imagine a large floating city which could keep itself in the sunlight all the time. The gasses being cold enough for warm air floatation perhaps? Or floating cities that are high enough to see the sunlight and also capture wind power.
These could be tethered to the surface or not. The tethers might have multiple buoyant floats on them.

But the ship might have various compartments, some with air some with hot Nitrogen, some with Hydrogen, and some with Helium if fusion comes about.

In the icy crust you might have cold cities for robots to inhabit.

There is some thinking that the dunes around the equator of Titan may be comet dust, at least in part. This could make sense as icy dirt balls would likely evaporate the ice during entry to the atmosphere, and an impact as well, might evaporate the icy materials away from the dust. As it may be too cold for persistent melted water, perhaps some of the dust is somewhat dry.

As for Pluto, Triton, and Eris, yes I think you are right. However an artificial magnetic field to fend off the solar wind may be needed to preserve the atmosphere.

Heated enclosures? Yes, but the bigger the better, and maybe floatation is useful.

I know that Titan is supposed to have wind energy higher in the atmosphere. That might be a useful energy source.
https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/t … -on-titan/
Quote:

Huygens encountered its maximum wind speed about ten minutes after beginning its descent. The speed was roughly 120 metres per second (or 432 kilometres per hour) and was measured at an altitude of about 120 kilometres. As the probe dropped below 60 kilometres, the wind speed dropped too. During the final seven kilometres of the descent, Huygens encountered wind speeds of just a few metres per second, allowing it to drop in an almost straight line. At the surface of Titan, there was nothing but a gentle breeze of just 0.3 metres per second.

And yes, even without fusion, fission might make things a whole lot better.

I hope my reply was acceptable.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-07-01 15:22:38)

Calliban · 2025-07-04 14:04:26

Colonising plutoids.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … the_galaxy

Void · 2025-07-04 19:48:09

A very nice article Calliban. I have read a page or two so far.

Supposing that some form of fusion can be done, and I suppose it can be done, and that these little worlds are sprinkled about all over the place, the Kardashev Scale really is not sufficient to describe what capable life might take as a pattern of expansion.

I have recently read that a Dyson Sphere may not be very practical in reality.

It seems to me that civilizations may tend to avoid stars in most cases.

Stars with large gravity wells, may make interstellar object collisions more dangerous as one reason.

I am beginning to speculate that a place like Earth is open to a killing interstellar collision. Perhaps some have happened. But it would be a lottery. We may simply be extremely lucky, and so we exist.

Isaac Arthur suggests that Star lifting is something an advanced "People" might do. And that can make sense as the star can power the process. But a Jupiter and larger, is hard to get materials from and then if you did, you are still deep in a stars gravity well.

Plutoids, and the interstellar winds may be very much a better source of raw materials to make resources from. And the Plutoids will have fusion fuels, and the interstellar winds may have Helium-3.

But good article.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-07-04 19:58:16)

Void · 2025-07-06 10:59:05

As further comment on this post of Calliban: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 11#p232611

And this similar post from Calliban: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 47#p232647
Quote:

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 4,061
Email
The paper discusses the problem of microgravity and the use of rotating habitats.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … the_galaxy
The point that the paper makes is that plutoids and similar icy bodies are the most abundant type of world in our solar system and probably throughout the galaxy. Ultimately, pressurised caverns in these bodies will be home to humanity. The ice will provide radiation protection as well as being the source material for air and water. Deuterium in the ice will provide an energy source. As humanity spreads outward into the outer solar system and into interstellar space, we will discover and settle more of these worlds.
Although the paper doesn't say as much, one other advantage that a cold, icy body provides is an excellent heat sink. A habitat within an icy body could use the thermal mass of the body to cool itself. Free space habitats will need to radiate waste heat into the vacuum. This is a poor heat removal mechanism and it limits the habitation density that is achievable in free space. A habitat in an icy body has a heat disposal mechanism that is far more effective than anything that can be achieved in free space. A 500m diameter rotating habitat constructed in an ice cave can be decked out internally to provide far more living space than the same habitat could provide in free space.
Last edited by Calliban (Yesterday 16:04:22)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

I would like to make some comments.

Presuming that a power source as effective as we anticipate Fusion will become does become actual, then the assessment of what to do with matter in a solar system and beyond may change.

Matter might be classified by accessibility to human uses.

Some people think that the plutoids will be higher in the sun's gravity well, and the individual objects the size of Pluto or smaller will have small gravity wells themselves.

Some people think that Star Lifting could be another valuable source of matter. I expect that that is quite far away from our methods at this time, but the sun or another star could supply the power to do Star Lifting.

But there may be a thing between these extremes. We generally think about irrigating inner planets with substances from the outer solar system. But the inverse may be more profitable.

Among "Dry" objects in the solar system are Mercury, and some of the rocky asteroids. And other objects such as Ceres and Callisto, may be icy, but may still provide rocky materials accessible on or near their surfaces.

The sun's power could drive solar sails. Historically those are contemplated to be using the full spectrum of the sunlight. But lately concepts have emerged where lasers are considered even for interstellar missions, so they likely to be sent to Plutoids nearer to our sun. Here is an article on that, where holes are put into the sail: https://pubs.aip.org/physicstoday/artic … starsSails

What I am driving at is this. Such sails sent to a plutoid might impact it and the materials then delivered by that method. So, let's consider Titan, Triton, Pluto. They each have an atmosphere of some sort. So, very thin solar sails, and properly designed payloads would burn up in those atmospheres on arrival, probably without damaging anything on the surface.

Over time, some of Mercury and the Asteroid Belts could be delivered to the plutoids this way. One like Eris, being large enough it may be possible to inflate an atmosphere on it for this purpose.

For Smaller ones you might have to impact the icy surface to deliver the materials. That of course could be a challenge to not damage surface installations if any.

So, I will argue that perhaps aliens would do this, provided that fusion is indeed a proper power supply.

Where we are starting to lament that the Trappist Star system planets will not have an atmosphere, perhaps we could look at the situation another way.

Looking at Proxima Centauri, I see a really good possibility. Even if 'b' is airless.
If the candidate 'd' does exist, then it will be quite a prize if humans ever get there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxima_Centauri_d

Proxima Centauri Asteroid Belts: https://planetpailly.com/2020/03/03/tou … 0System%29.
Quote:

Beyond the orbit of Proxima b, we find our first possible asteroid belt. In that 2017 paper I cited above, this innermost belt is described as the warm dust belt. It appears to be located approximately 0.4 AU away from its star (roughly equivalent to the orbit of Mercury in our Solar System).
A little farther out, we find a second possible asteroid belt, which the authors of that 2017 paper describe as the cold dust belt. Remember: we suspect these dust belts exist because of temperature measurements, hence the names. The cold dust belt appears to be spread out between 1 AU and 4 AU (roughly equivalent to the space between the orbits of Earth and Jupiter in our Solar System).
And then farther out still, there appears to be a third belt, referred to as the outer dust belt (in my opinion, it should have been named the colder dust belt). The outer dust belt appears to be located approximately 30 AU away from its star (roughly equivalent to the orbit of Neptune).

So, we have some chances of Plutoids which we are not equipped to detect at this time.

So, rocky and metal materials could be exported from the inner Proxima Centauri system to any plutoids further out.

And an alien people if they became advanced enough could engage in Star Lifting as well, to export the heavy materials from their star(s), out to the plutoid.

So, the point is even if red dwarfs are not suitable for habitable planets they may very well, be very useful for the materials that could be shipped out from the inner parts of such a solar system out to where the valuable ices are and also the deuterium and perhaps Helium-3.

This would be a very different concept from the Dyson Sphere. But maybe they would make rings around their star to collect sunlight, and project the power out to the plutoids as well.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-07-06 11:35:18)

Void · Yesterday 08:29:41

I do not regard myself as being particularly wise in these matters, but I do think I see a likelihood that high speed interstellar transits may be endangered by a possible distribution of small matter objects in the galaxy. I am just presuming that if we have already seen 3 interstellar objects of significant size, it might be that many more smaller objects will exist. This may be true. Of course, we don't know yet.

This then allows the question, would it be better to try to go to Proxima-Centauri-'b' or our rather remote Eris, dwarf planet. If it does turn out that dwarf planets are better targets than planets around other stars, and if the interstellar spaces are full of small collision hazards, then classic sci-fi ideas will not so much apply.

We might simply occupy places in our very outer solar system and then spill over into presumed dwarf planets for Proxima Centauri.

It may matter how much a dwarf planet is differentiated. For Pluto, the ice crust and mantle do get in the way of accessing the rocky core.

But I recall that some people have speculated that for Mars, a short-lived atmospheric inflation could exist as a result of a right sized impact event.

Impactors near Eris, or Titan for example might cause a temporary heating of an atmosphere, and if the impactor were a mix of dust and ices, the two might separate, and large winds might blow the dust and resulting snow around.

These events would be rare, but could possibly have happened over billions of years. Of course, Eris probably struggles to have an atmosphere at all due to the cold, but a very temporary climate change could result.

Some other people have suggested along these lines that the dune fields of Titan might be comet dust. But there is a lot of inertia from the science dogma to say that the dunes of Titan and Pluto are of ice particles.

Lesser events of smaller impactors, even if not providing a "Comet Storm", might separate rock dust from vapors during entry to an atmosphere. Without a wet substance, perhaps the rock dust can end up on or near the surface as distinct from ices which otherwise dominate.

So, this could be important for allowing an initial introduction of the activities of humans and robots to these worlds.

Titan will likely teach us a lot about the somewhat similar plutoids.

So, if humans and their machines do seek to inhabit our solar system and that solar system of Proxima Centauri certain tools/methods will be important.

Lasers from near the stars could propel payloads to an intercept of a dwarf planet or outer planet moon. But they could also give power to a solar moth method to bring ice inward. Isaac Arthur provides mention of both: https://isaacarthur.net/video/solar-mot … lar-sails/

Proxima Centauri has three suspected/confirmed planets, and 3 asteroid belts presumed.

'b' is a bit larger than Earth, 'd' is a bit larger than Mars, I think but may not exist. They may both be devoid of an atmosphere and also tidal locked.

There is a probably vain hope that planets 'd' and 'b' would have atmospheres. I am willing to suppose that they will not. But I do have hopes of glaciers and even ice-covered oceans on their dark sides, if they are indeed tidal locked. If not tidal locked then perhaps ices in polar shadowed craters.

I have a preference that 'd' does exist and that it is airless, and tidal locked and would have extensive ice on it's dark side, even perhaps an ice-covered ocean. Sort of a "Janus" world. One side rocky and dry, one icy and perhaps even wet, under ice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus

If planet 'b' is a Janus World, unfortunately without an atmosphere it will be hard to land on it as it will have strong gravity. But if a Janus World 'd' exists it may be suitable to use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxima_Centauri_d Quote:

Physical characteristics[1]
Mean radius ~0.81±0.08 R? (predicted)
Mass ≥0.26±0.05 M?
Temperature 360 K (87 °C; 188 °F)

If it does have an icy dark side, then it could be a mining planet and even have an under-ice biosphere created or discovered. That sea, created or not would likely offer a lot of protection from hostile factors such as radiation. The sunward side of the planet would likely provide immense amounts of solar power.

If Proxima Centauri 'c' moons exist and also dwarf planets, then they could exchange materials with 'd', if it exists. But of course, the 3 presumed asteroid belts could be sources of materials for exchange as well.

So, the relationship between our solar system and that of Proxima Centauri would be a sort of mirror, where human efforts expand into dwarf planets and then to the dwarf planets/moons of Proxima Centauri and then from there into the planets of Proxima Centauri.

So, then not the same vision as for most classical Sci-Fi.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 09:21:13)

Calliban · Today 00:48:30

I think it is difficult to be certain exactly what conditions prevail on the Proxima planets. Without transits, all we really have is estimates of mass and orbital characteristics. When humanity is truly space faring, we may have the means to build truly gigantic telescopes using lunar and asteroid materials. With those resources at our disposal, direct imaging will be possible. Until then, it is difficult to do more than speculate.

I don't think we will be faced with picking between solar system objects and exoplanets. In terms of distance, the moon is a step away. Pluto is a 5 minute walk to the shops. To get to Proxima, you would have to walk all the way around the world. The distances involved are staggering. The solar system will be heavily colonised before humans reach another star. And the reality is that space colonisation will be carried out by various different groups of people, with their own priorities and goals. I would expect a sort of gold rush to occur when new capabilities become available. Worlds will be claimed, claims will be traded and people will take on the challenges of building new worlds for their own political and economic justifications.

Last edited by Calliban (Today 00:52:52)

Void · Today 09:39:06

I strongly agree with you Calliban.

I find it interesting how similar and perhaps not similar a solar system situation will be to the first river civilizations.

With the "Solar Moth", "Solar Sail", and "Robots" the solar system could be "Irrigated". Lasers powered by some sort of power source could assist this process.

Our solar system might be visualized as being somewhat like our planet. High altitudes tend to collect ice, and low altitudes may tend to be arid. So, for the solar system high orbits of the sun "Wet", low orbits of the sun, "Dry".

Our irrigation however can be in both directions in this case, as rocky materials could be exported outward to icy places to make "Land", and icy materials could be exported inward, to better make "Land" more suitable to life.

In the above, "Land" often could indicate manufactured habitat, but also could indicate the upgrading of a world as well.

Upgrade from the point of view of humans and perhaps their robot associates.

The solar system really does have something resembling weather. If water leaves Mars by evaporation, it might condense on a object in the Kuiper Belt or Oort Cloud. Then the gravity fluctuations of the galaxy itself of passing objects may displace comets and cause them to bring water and other substances to dry worlds.

Humans and their robots could use various means to make this process of redistribution of materials much more active, to make the entire solar system more productive from a human point of view and perhaps also from the point of view of robot associates.

The drive to go to another star, may not emerge as a big push for some time because of this.

But if there are humans and robot associates inhabiting Oort Cloud objects, it might happen that they would think it no problem to expand into the Oort Cloud of another star, if one existed. Once they were the inhabitants of another star system, even a Plutoid, they might find it worth their trouble to migrate inward to seek wealth from it.

Oort Cloud inhabitants might be attracted to metals and rocky materials perhaps easier to get than to dig though ice.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 09:56:38)

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