Pluto Realms

Void · 2018-05-30 13:14:14

I at first was not at all enthusiastic about what could be done with Pluto, Charon, and the small moons of the system.

However, in a solar civilization, I now see that metals and other non-icy materials could be sent to Pluto/Charon to start up a subpart of that civilization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto
Quote:

New Horizons observations showed that atmospheric escape of nitrogen to be 10,000 times less than expected.[121] Alan Stern has contended that even a small increase in Pluto's surface temperature can lead to exponential increases in Pluto's atmospheric density; from 18 hPa to as much as 280 hPa (three times that of Mars to a quarter that of the Earth). At such densities, nitrogen could flow across the surface as liquid.

So, I gather if a relatively small amount of additional energy were added to the atmosphere of Pluto, perhaps an air pressure suitable to humans. Still a tricky environment, liquid Nitrogen rivers and such. But not that much worse than Saturn's moon Titan.

As for atmospheric loss, if that is somehow a concern, then an artificial magnetic field perhaps to help retain atmosphere.

......

As for metals and other non-icy materials, I suggest mass producing tiny robot spacecraft that can navigate on the solar wind. One possible electrical power source for them would be the difference between their speed and that of the solar wind.

The intention is that they would impact themselves to an atmosphere or surface of Pluto or one of it's moons.

The way this would be paid for would be in the building of habitats for humans to move to.

However, in the long term, I would want to mine Charon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon

I am aware that the ice layer is very thick. However, I am thinking it could be removed to a new moon, or synthetic gravity machines.

The new moon would be so large that it could have a sea inside. Inside the sea, human habitats.

Once the ice had been sufficiently removed from Charon, then a sea would be established with a pressure on the rocky surface of Charon of pressures tolerable to mining. Over time, the pressure could be reduced to an average of 1 Bar.

So, then if humans could rise to such a level of ability then Kepler belt Dwarf planets of a small size could become sources of minerals.

Then off to the Oort cloud.

Energy for this? Well some would say solar concentrating mirrors, but I am guessing that fusion will eventually become a human ability.

I am interested in the Barycenter between Pluto and Charon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycenter
Quote:

When the two bodies are of similar masses, the barycenter will generally be located between them and both bodies will follow an orbit around it. This is the case for Pluto and Charon,

So, the question is if the atmosphere of Pluto were inflated to 1 bar, (If that is possible), would the Barycenter be within the atmosphere of Pluto? If so, then could you fly a winged aircraft to the barycenter? Just items of curiosity.

Done

Last edited by Void (2018-05-30 13:38:09)

tahanson43206 · 2024-10-23 20:43:38

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time...

Index:

https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 65#p231865
Calliban: report of new candidate dwarf planet: 2017OF201

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-10-23 20:46:32

An unexpected article about Pluto showed up in the Internet feed...

This article is from the Smithsonian Institution...

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- … wtab-en-us

The article includes a number of images.

One quote caught my eye ... Pluto and it's moon Charon may be habitable, in the sense that they have plenty of useful elements, and Pluto appears to have an internal heat source that may sustain a liquid ocean under the surface.

(th)

Void · 2024-10-24 20:00:46

Pluto/Charon is interesting. Apparently due to heavy molecules formed in the atmosphere of Pluto, it can hold on to it's Nitrogen.

It seems that Charon's crust may contain a minority of Silicates according to some theories.

With fusion this could be very useful.

Ending Pending

Calliban · 2025-05-24 05:02:57

Introducing 2017OF201, the solar system's most recently discovered dwarf planet candidate.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_OF201

This object has a highly eccentric orbit. Its perihelion is 44AU. Its aphelion is an enormous 1600AU. It may in fact be a scattered body from the inner Oort cloud.

Whilst these objects may not at first appear to be promissing places to live, they have the advantage of being heat sinks. One of the limitations on free space habitats, us the need to dump waste heat into space, which can only be done by radiation. This limits the size and density of habitats, as radiator area ends up dominating the size of the structure. With a heat sink, these limitations are removed.

Imagine building an O'Neil cylinder 20km wide and 50km long. The internal surface area would be about 3000km2, about the size of a county. Now imagine decking the inside, with 10m between decks. Internal land area is then 1.5million km2. That is about half the size of the continental US. Such internal subdivision would be impractical in free space, because the waste heat generated by the lighting of this much land would require a radiator hundreds of thousands of square km in area. But if we build our hab on an icy body, we can pump water through it and use the volume of the body as a place to dump heat. Such a large and cold body would take many tens of thousands of years to melt.

Last edited by Calliban (2025-05-24 05:11:57)

Void · 2025-05-24 11:28:35

It is always possible that I do not understand correctly. It seems to have been said that for most of its orbit, the object could not have been detected from Earth with current technology. So, that suggests to me that there could be an enormous amount of objects, similar that are not currently observable. But that is not certain at all, it is a maybe at best.

I have on occasion tried to think of a solid radiator. The solid would be first cooled by radiation into the universe, but then would cool a secondary device by contact and conduction.

I do not feel that I can yet offer a potentially practical solution yet.

Obviously, a pile of metal dice on the Moon, could be "Flowed" into a machine and presented to a flat surface to convey their low vibration state onto the plate, then sent back out to the Moons surface to cool again.

Selective magnetism might be helpful, perhaps the dice could be ceramic but with some magnetite inside of them. To do this vacuum welding has to be avoided.

This brings questions about vacuum gap and conduction. Does heat flow into the "Die", only through physical transfer of vibrating molecule to molecule, or is there a radiation transfer across a very small gap?

Will the photons flow from the hot plate to the "Die" because of the proximity of the cold "Die", or must molecular vibration atom to atom be the only way of transfer?

If you have an opinion, I am interested.

Lets go the other way and consider hot marbles. If they are heated, then we cannot use magnetism, most likely as it would be above the curie point.

We could use gravity or synthetic gravity though, I think.

Can we heat up our marbles in a device, such as a solar concentrator and "Flow" them into a storage area?

Here, if we then "Flow" them to a boiler, contact will transfer some heat, but photons from the hot marbles will transfer quite a bit more.

It is not that I think I have a practical machine yet, but a means to visualize some questions.

But I am interested. Technically in microgravity it might be possible to magnetically manipulate the "Dice", to be exposed to the universe to cool, for instance if they heated above the curie point they could be ejected outwards, but upon cooling a magnetic field might suck them back towards the radiator, to make contact.

Again I do not propose that I have created a practical machine, but a set of questions instead.

Isaac Arthur seems to think that Mirrors will work for solar power even in the Kuiper Belt. I would have supposed out to Saturn. If we have fusion or solar, then we may want good radiator method.

A somewhat metal disc might do as well, if the radiator could move on it, and clamp the condenser to the surface, by a force, such as magnetism.

It might be that a practical machine will be created some day.

Ending Pending

Perhaps a solid ring of material which the condenser could physically embrace the small circumference of for the promotion of physical contact. And still I wonder if close proximity promotes faster photon transfer of energy across a very small vacuum gap, or if vibrations must transfer molecule to molecule by touch.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2025-05-24 11:55:30)

Void · Yesterday 11:42:50

I suppose that technically this new discovery is vastly beyond Pluto/Charon, but I have not done much in terraforming for some time, so I will put a copy here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … r-AA1FVewU
Quote:

An Extreme Dwarf Planet Discovery Challenges Our Understanding of the Solar System’s Outer Frontiers
Story by James Thompson • 4d •
4 min read

Quote:

“2017 OF201 spends only 1% of its orbital time close enough to us to be detectable. The presence of this single object suggests that there could be another hundred or so other objects with similar orbit and size; they are just too far away to be detectable now,” said Sihao Cheng of the Institute for Advanced Study, underscoring a discovery that is quietly rewriting the map of our solar system (Live Science).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_OF201
Quote:

2017 OF201 is an extreme trans-Neptunian object and dwarf planet candidate, estimated to be at least 550 kilometres (340 miles) in diameter. It was announced in 2025 by Sihao Cheng, Jiaxuan Li, and Eritas Yang, who discovered the object in archived telescope images from 2011 to 2018. With an absolute magnitude of between 3 and 4, 2017 OF201 may be the brightest known object in the Solar System that does not have a directly estimated size. The orbit of 2017 OF201 is extremely large and elongated, bringing it from 45 to 1,630 astronomical units (0.00071 to 0.02577 ly) away from the Sun.

So, from the orbit of Pluto/Charon out to the Inner Oort Cloud.

Good chances it does not resemble Charon, but since we have no pictures, I want to compare the two.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_(moon)
Quote:

Charon (/ˈkɛərɒn, -ən/ KAIR-on, -ən or /ˈʃærən/ SHARR-ən),[note 1] formal designation (134340) Pluto I, is the largest of the five known natural satellites of the dwarf planet Pluto. It has a mean radius of 606 km (377 mi). Charon is the sixth-largest known trans-Neptunian object after Pluto, Eris, Haumea, Makemake, and Gonggong.[19] It was discovered in 1978 at the United States Naval Observatory in Washington, D.C., using photographic plates taken at the United States Naval Observatory Flagstaff Station (NOFS).

So, one characteristic, size is similar between 2017 OF201 and Charon.

I have been thinking about Charon off and on. Presuming some form of fusion power, it is a reservoir of fuel, I presume. Reading of theories of its structure there is some hope that the crust is mostly undifferentiated. That might mean rocky materials in the ice after all.

Theoris of structure, (Image Quotes):

So, not just a big ball of water ice as I had thought.

So, could hollow worlds be built of these materials and anchored in a "L" type location, or a Barycenter? Or in the case of a single object, perhaps orbit it like a moon?

So, if silicates are in the crust, then metals and glasses, also with a distribution of Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen organic structure like wood or ropes.

It seems like we are getting hints of fusion being closed in by various efforts, once that might become true, then these worlds may not be the wastelands we currently may think them to be.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 12:23:47)

Calliban · Yesterday 18:24:40

Void, that is interesting. One thing that surprised me (though probably should not) is the sheer size of the Hill's sphere for Kuiper belt objects. Out beyond the orbit of Neptune, even small dwarf worlds can have gravitational influence over a vast region of space. A body like Charon could be mined and used to build a swarm of habitats in Pluto orbit. The barycentre between Pluto and Charon, could be one such conglomeration.

Most of the mass needed to build a space habitat is shielding. This can be made from almost any material, including water ice.

Last edited by Calliban (Yesterday 18:27:15)

Void · Yesterday 19:21:04

Yes indeed. You might like this if you have not seen it before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNRQFKV … saacArthur Quote:

Colonizing Pluto & The Acheron River
Isaac Arthur
813K subscribers

So, a space elevator between Pluto and Charon, crossing though the barycenter.

The idea that "2017 OF201" may have a hundred or more siblings, is of great interest. As you have pointed out the hill spheres maybe enormous.

In taking these things largely apart, quite a lot of structure could be manufactured. One somewhat weird idea would be to extract the materials and make a giant ball of "Foam", encompassing the entire Hill sphere if that were possible.

Foam: https://www.slideshare.net/slideshow/fo … 6/24926136
Quote: foam-4-1024.jpg?cb=1375663685

If the "Foam World" were made in the shape of a red blood cell this might help to radiate heat out.

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/phot … /637422184
Image Quote: red-blood-cells-in-vein.jpg?s=2048x2048&w=gi&k=20&c=fhK0Llv0kjJhOM-94raBD737ryzhBz1F0KFdEp_xDpU=

So converting a whole dwarf planet to one shape like one blood cell and having an internal structure like foam, maybe cells in cells so to speak.

The hill sphere would be modified by the warping of the shape.

A cross between a torus and a disc.

In the case where the world is beyond the Heliopause, then perhaps to be able to collect interstellar gasses and dust. A greater density may exist where the solar wind collides with the interstellar winds.

Various cells within could have features like spin gravity devices, and seas perhaps.

So, perhaps worlds that will be giant spaceships, and seek out other dwarf planets to convert, perhaps even rogue dwarf planets.

Even to travel to "Feed" on the Heliopause of other stars, to migrate though the galaxy and maybe even further. Even the spaces between galaxies are said to have some stars.

An interesting fate for the human race and their machines, if the higher powers allow it.

If there are as many dwarf planets as may seem at this point, and if fusion does become practical, then rather than a great interest in Dyson Spheres, which seem to be of doubtful merit, this would be the path of higher civilizations, and they would be rather hard to detect wouldn't they.

So, Isaac Arthur might consider carefully interested Aliens, perhaps. If they were interested, they could take over our robots. In fact they would introduce us to robots, so that we would depend on the robots that they would take over. Scarry!, but not Scarry.

Actually other than anthropology I don't think they would want to spend their time messing with us or messing us up.

But they could keep an eye on us from a distance once they introduced us to computers and robots. We will probably be beaming information between planets and they could probably intercept it.

But they might never introduce themselves to us.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 20:01:26)

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