Terraformer Postings

tahanson43206 · 2024-10-01 06:29:52

For Terraformer re Calliban district heating plan ...

Calliban wrote:

I have completed some work for the Carnforth district heating project.
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 81#p226881
The same system can be replicated where ever we have a densely populated town close to the coast. That covers most of the UK population and a significant fraction of European population overall.

This is a good time for you to try your wings a bit .... I recognize you are still building your education base for a career in civic leadership, but it sure looks to me as though Calliban has set out a plan that just might work, if the right leadership appears on the scene.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-10-08 07:12:19

For Terraformer ...

Terraformer wrote:

Carnforth is less than 10 miles from Heysham 1 and 2 The whole district (whole bay?) could be heated by nuclear, the sticking point is the ridiculous Green Party that's in power there.

How are those plants cooled today?

By implication of your report, I am guessing all that heat is dumped into the atmosphere?

Could the population near the plant(s) benefit from reduced expenditures for heating if the waste heat were routed into their homes?

Some investment would be required.

Would such investment pay for itself over a sufficiently long period?

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-11-20 07:35:28

For Terraformer re testing of new FluBB web site...

Please log into the new system at http://newmars.com/new/

Please post a message there to confirm you were able to log in, and to report your observations.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2024-12-02 06:58:21

For Terraformer re project to use sea water as source of thermal energy for a British town...

https://interestingengineering.com/ener … -heat-pump

This seems to be an example of the application you and Calliban have been talking about...

It looks as though the system uses CO2 as a working fluid...

World’s largest CO2 heat pump with 70MW capacity begins operation to power 25,000 homes
To ensure a consistent supply of renewable energy, the facility also utilizes a 60 MW wood chip boiler fueled by sustainably sourced wood chips.
Updated: Dec 01, 2024 04:03 AM EST
Aman Tripathi
a day ago
1
World's largest CO2 heat pump with 70MW capacity begins operation to power 25,000 homes
Powered by renewable energy, the heat pump draws heat from seawater and nearby wind farms.
MAN Energy Solutions
The world’s largest CO2-based seawater heat pump has begun operations at the Port of Esbjerg in Denmark.
This technology, developed by Swiss company MAN Energy Solutions, represents a step towards the decarbonization of heating infrastructure and provides an example for cities seeking to lower their impact on the environment.
The 70 MW heat pump is a key component of a broader strategy to transition away from fossil fuel reliance.
The pioneering heat pump facility uses renewable energy, extracting heat from seawater and nearby wind farms to provide heating to 25,000 homes.
“The new heat pump plant will supply approximately 280,000 MWh of climate-neutral heat annually,” said the company in a press release.
Facility’s operational launch could be a turning point
“It will cover the heating needs of 25,000 households, while reducing CO2 emissions by 120,000 tons per year,” added the press release.
According to MAN Energy, this technology offers a plan for other population centers exploring heating solutions.
“This is a significant milestone that we have eagerly anticipated for a long time,” remarked Helle Damm-Henrichsen, Managing Director of DIN Forsyning, the company that will operate the heat pump plant.
The project is significant not only for the scale of the CO2 heat pump but also for its comprehensive integration of various energy sources.
The facility incorporates a 60 MW wood chip boiler fueled by sustainable wood chips, ensuring a consistent supply of renewable energy.
A 40 MW electric boiler plant further enhances the system’s resilience, managing peak demand and providing backup heating capacity.
Using CO2 as refrigerant
The utilization of CO2 as a refrigerant in the heat pump further underscores the project’s commitment to environmental responsibility.
“This is of particular interest to DIN Forsyning given the plant’s location on the shore of the Wadden Sea, a UNESCO World Heritage Site with a sensitive ecosystem,” highlighted the press release.
CO2 refrigerant presents a safer and more sustainable alternative to traditional refrigerants.
Beyond its environmental benefits, the system is designed for efficiency and grid stability. Its capabilities allow it to adjust to changes in energy demand.
“The solution also enables fast power-balancing of the electrical grid and thus supports the integration of intermittent power generation like solar and wind,” explained the company
“The system can be switched on and off many times a day with fast reaction capability.”
This dynamic interplay between different energy sources ensures a reliable and resilient heating system.
Innovative technology and sustainable solutions
The innovative heat pump system features two oil-free, hermetically sealed HOFIM motor-compressor units developed by MAN Energy Solutions in Zurich, Switzerland.
“These units use high-speed motors and active magnetic bearings, eliminating the need for oil and reducing maintenance requirements,” concluded the press release.
Additionally, the system is equipped for remote monitoring, data analytics, and diagnostics, ensuring optimal performance and efficiency.
The utilization of CO2-based seawater heat pumps could be a viable pathway for cities to decarbonize their heating infrastructure.
By adopting such solutions, cities can actively mitigate their environmental impact and promote the creation of sustainable and resilient communities.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-11 18:02:17

For Terraformer re post about asteroid mining ....

It is ** good ** to see you back in the mix as we start 2025!

I hope your studies are going well!

It would be ** great ** if you could extend your ideas a bit ...

We started with Calliban's ring, which I'm assuming would be made of ultra lightweight but strong girders.

The cylinder you proposed could be made with just two of those rings, if fabric of some kind is stretched between the rings.

With any luck at all, you might be able to win Calliban's support for your proposal.

I'm sure you recall that when Calliban first joined the forum he invested some thought in describing a net to enclose an asteroid. This concept of yours reminds me of the net idea, but it has a lot going for it besides just enclosing the mass of the chunks from the rubble pile.

I think it was Void who just posted a link to a story about the James Webb telescope finding myriads of small asteroids not recognized before.

This suggests to me that there may be large numbers of smaller asteroids that would be ideal for collection by your cylindrical device.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-12 07:15:26

For Terraformer re post about exercise wheel...

I've added your post to the index for the Rotating Ship topic

Please extend your thought to consider the Starship as a location for this device.

In the spirit of the topic, please design the exercise facility so that counter rotating wheels are in operation to balance forces.

I am reminded of the running wheel in the deep space vessel in Stanley Kubrick's "2001"

I asked Google and it found a diameter of 11 meters:

Search Labs | AI Overview
Learn more
2001 space hi-res stock photography and images - Alamy
The exercise track in the Discovery One spacecraft in the 1968 film 2001: A Space Odyssey was 11 meters in diameter. The track was a carousel that rotated at a little over 5 revolutions per minute to create artificial gravity similar to the moon's.
The Discovery One was a fictional spaceship that also appeared in Arthur C. Clarke's Space Odyssey novels and the 1984 film 2010: The Year We Make Contact.

Also per Google, the Starship has a diameter of 9 meters, so a track like that of "2001" is within reach. If the person doing exercise can handle the higher rpm, then artificial gravity at least equal to the moon is within reach.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-12 14:03:04

For Terraformer re: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 51#p229051

About research ....

In thinking about your observation, it occurs to me that a vessel designed for deep space travel would be an excellent place to carry out the kind of research you seem to be calling for. The vessel doesn't have to make a trip right away, once it is assembled and working.

it could serve as a space station and double up as a long duration low G research facility.

The advantage of building a vessel that can do deep space, as compared to a research facility that will never go anywhere, is that once the fears are dispelled, or the real dangers identified, the ship can proceed on a mission.

***
At one time you and Calliban were interested in the possibility of harnessing ocean heat to benefit a town in the UK. Nothing is going to happen unless you decide to make it happen. It's up to you to ** become ** the politician you are waiting for.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-13 07:42:29

For Terraformer re Post in Rotating Ship topic...

Thanks for this fascinating contribution.

You are the first person I've read who brought up rotation around the longitudinal axis of a human as a possible solution for the absence of Earth gravity.

The Stanford Torus study is famous for their decision to set RPM at a maximum of 1.

That led to the dimensions that physics demands, and all the design consequences that led to the majestic design we know today.

We have need of some basic research to flow into the Rotating Ship topic, and I'm hoping you might be willing to provide some of it.

TheSpaceShow.com archive includes interviews with a medical doctor who conducted experiments on his own body, using an amusement park ride as the mechanism. I don't remember the results, but they are available for anyone to hear from the archives of TheSpaceShow.com.

Some actual research might be available for study from the records of the qualification tests performed on the Mercury astronauts. Among the many exhaustive tests were rides in a centrifuge to test gravity tolerance. Those were short arm devices, and they were not intended to evaluate human response to rotation for gravity replacement purposes. However, they may have inadvertently provided useful information about how well humans can tolerate rotation at high rates.

All of us humans have experience with rotation in a gravity field. We experience one rotation in 24 hours, and we've evolved to find that rotation rate to be acceptable. I'd venture a guess that no one is even aware of the rotation, except intellectually as we watch the stars or planets move in the sky.

The argument GW Johnson is advancing (as I understand it) is that humans evolved under 1 G, so he advocates providing 1 G of artificial gravity for humans on long space flights. GW Johnson has written about his belief that humans can tolerate as much as 4 RPM.

To my knowledge, absolutely ZERO actual studies have been done to determine how much continuous rotation humans can tolerate.

Thus, if someone in the NewMars community has time to find out and to report any research that might have been done, it would be helpful.

RobertDyck has advanced the hypothesis that the gravity of Mars would be sufficient for long term space flight, and he has sized his Large Ship accordingly. RobertDyck decided to go with 3 RPM as the maximum that humans can tolerate for long periods.

This is all guesswork, as far as I know.

It is perfectly feasible to build test facilities on Earth to provide useful data.

It is (for example) perfectly possible to build a rotating facility on Earth. Such a facility would be an excellent place to evaluate the ability of humans to tolerate various levels of rotation for long periods. The Russans, Americans, Chinese and several other Nations have built isolation facilities to evaluate human ability to live is simulated space habitats for periods as long as a year.

These have ** all ** been done without rotation.

Nothing happens in the human population without leadership.

It will take a high level of leadership to cause a group of humans to decide to make the investment needed to determine how much rotation humans can tolerate for months or years at a time.

This forum provides an opportunity for leadership to grow from ideas to actions that have influence on other humans.

The name of the medical doctor is: Dr. Doug Plata

TheSpaceShow.com provides search tools to find interviews using a variety of search terms.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-13 16:14:20

For Terraformer re Post in Rotating re restaurant or other facility...

I'm replying here to give your ID a bit of air time.

It is good to see our members rising to the opportunities they are creating.

Thank you for noting that floor of an Earth based simulation must be angled to match the intended RPM, just like a race track is banked.

In private correspondence, GW Johnson reminded me that amusement park rides are an available option to study.

He explained that the once-popular rotating barrels are gone because of accidents.

However, rotating swings are still popular and apparently they are safe enough. It had never occurred to me before now to consider an amusement ride as a space travel substitute, but it is possible that a large device may have an RPM in the 3 to 4 range.

I'm planning to do a bit of research on that point.

Disney in the US might be a perfect venue for a Real Universe simulation of an orbital station or transport.

Just saying that makes me realize the creative folks at Disney may already have considered that idea.

There's another thing to research!

Regarding who's going to do it.... I keep coming back for leadership.

Absolutely NOTHING is going to happen without leadership.

If you want a town in the UK to to have sea sourced heat you have to provide the leadership to make it happen.

The same goes for a rotating facility to provide realistic simulation of RobertDyck's Large Ship or GW Johnson's smaller one.

One runs at 3 RPM at Mars gravity and the other at 4 RPM at Earth gravity. On Earth, the simulation will combine Earth's gravity with the centripetal force, so the customer will have an unrealistic experience from that point of view. The purpose of the exercise is to find out if humans can stand the mental effects of long term rotation.

You mentioned the view. In space, all you're going to see are stars going by, if you had windows, and I doubt there are going to be many windows in any of these vehicles, due to radiation and micrometeor risks. Thus, the view can be (and likely will be) provided by screens or simple paint for the Burger King set.

Please continue developing your ideas!

The interactions between the members are what keep this forum active.

(th)

GW Johnson · 2025-01-14 14:25:40

Earth entry gee exposures vary with speed at entry interface. From LEO, it is about 3-4 gees peak. Astronauts exposed to that are affected by microgravity diseases, up to about a year's exposure, but that works for them. Most rocket vehicle burns are that or less, by design. But, coming back from the moon at a snit under escape it was 11 gee peak. The astronauts who were exposed to that were fully Earth-fit, since the total mission time on Apollo moon missions was only 2 weeks. We have experience with that.

We have no experience whatsoever to asses the health effects of long-term exposures to Mars gravity (0.382 gee) or lunar gravity (0.165 gee). So we do not know how weakened by this they will be, other than it is bounded by 0-gee weightless exposures, and our entire evolutionary history at 1 gee here on Earth. That would suggest 3-4 gees is OK, because it is OK for the weightless exposures long-term.

BUT (and this is a huge BUT !!!) we have zero experience to suggest our weightless-exposed astronauts could withstand anything higher than 3-4 gee, because NO ONE ever came back from LEO after long-term weightlessness at anything higher than 3-4 gee!

Could a person exposed to weightlessness (or reduced gravity) long term, survive direct free entries at Earth coming back from the moon or Mars? WE DO NOT KNOW, THERE IS SIMPLY NO APPLICABLE EXPERIENCE! The moon is likely near 11 gees again, like Apollo, from Mars is likely higher still, above 12 gee.

Getting onto Mars is not so much the problem, direct entries there fall in the 1-4 gee range with most proposed designs, higher as you try to fly faster. It is the necessary rocket braking after coming out of hypersonics at very low altitude, in larger vehicles, that is the risk. That's around 4 gees if you come out of hypersonics at about 4-5 km altitude, but gets very rapidly larger as you come out lower still!

The real bugaboo is gees coming back to Earth from the moon or Mars, after extended stays out there. If you don't stop in LEO before attempting atmospheric entry, you could kill your crew/passengers/whatever.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2025-01-14 14:28:08)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-15 07:16:07

For Terraformer re Xenos...

Thanks for the reference to this name in a recent post....

Google came up with a number of references to a religious cult by that name.

Due to bad publicity (?) the group recently changed it's name to Dwell.

By any chance is that the meaning of the word you had in mind?

If so, I'm amazed you heard of it.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-16 12:54:22

For Terraformer re rotation along the longitudinal axis.

In a recent post (some time in 2025 as I recall), you tossed an interesting idea into the ring.

You gave the example of ice skaters who twirl several times in the midst of a performance.

I am under the impression that such skaters fix on a point on the horizon and twirl the head around rapidly to return to the same fixed point.

I'd be interested if you (or anyone) could follow up on that point. It might turn out that such athletes avoid vertigo by avoiding rotation with the body.

However, setting that detail aside, the idea of rotation around the longitudinal axis as a possible way to deal with absence of gravity has never come up before, in any of my reading, whether of science or science fiction.

I tip my hat to you for providing a genuinely new idea to the forum.

That puts you in the same arena with Void, but I admit it would be difficult to keep up with his flow of ideas.

The question at hand is whether a rotating bed/enclosure would be beneficial to ISS residents?

Is the human body able to deal with rotation without the fixed reference that (I understand) Real Universe skaters use to avoid vertigo?

This is something each of us could test easily and at low expense.

A machine able to support 175 pounds and which rotations at 1 RPM is available from Amazon for $140 or so plus tax and shipping.

it should be possible for one of the NewMars members with the appropriate skills and tools to make a rotator like that able to deliver 3, 4 or 5 RPM.

I have no way of knowing ahead of time what will happen.

It does seem to me likely that the sensors in our ears will try to tell us we are rotating, but perhaps if the rotation remains constant, that signal will diminish to the point we can ignore it.

The next quesion would be what rate of rotation would deliver a healthy human?

The standard Earth gravity works down through the body to apply stress to bones and joins, and to provide work opportunity for muscles.

Somewhere in there the heart gets a chance to work to provide blood where ever it is needed.

Longitudinal rotation might have some beneficial effect but I sure don't have any idea what it would be?

Testing using our own bodies is definitely something we can do with very little investment, but without sophisticated instruments all we can really learn is our individual tolerance for rotation with our eyes closed.

Thanks again for making a genuinely original contribution to the 20+ years history of the forum.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-17 18:18:22

For Terraformer re http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 84#p229184

In this post you have added a new design to the mix.

In his reference to a cross shape, I'm (reasonably sure) that GW Johnson was thinking about a simple pipe rotating around it's center, with extensions projecting perpendicular to the axis so that lines could be strung between the tips of the vessel and the tips of extensions, to provide structural integrity that is missing from the simple baton design.

Because of the ambiguity of words, you have "discovered" a configuration that makes even more sense than the simple baton.

Congratulations on having expanded the scope of thinking about this topic!

Please consider enlisting someone with computer graphics skills to turn your words into unambiguous images.

If (by chance) you are ready to increase your skill set, we have at least three members who have demonstrated skill in creating images.

Leading the field are GW Johnson (Microsoft tools) and Void (also ? Microsoft)

I can offer some limited suggestions for tools that run in/under Linux. These appear to be as fully featured as Microsoft.

We have at least one member who uses Apple, and I know that Apple offers a rich repertoire of digital tools.

You can save your work on imgur.com, and imgur.com provides a simple way for you to link from their repository to our forum.

I would ** really ** like to see your version of GW's design as shown in the post at: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 38#p229138

I note that RobertDyck has repaired the links to the original Apollo era designs for cable stretched rotating habitats. They clearly show what a bad idea looks like.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-17 18:29:54

For Terraformer...

re post with another original idea about gas gun from balloon:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 85#p229185

A feature of this system that you hinted at but which I did not see explicit, was the azimuth angle.

The ideal launch angle for an impulse system (such as a gas gun) is 45 degrees towards the East, so you can capture as much of the Earth's rotation as is available at your launch site, while achieving altitude at the same time.

All the impulse devices need auxiliary propulsion to reach LEO.

The existing platforms for air launch are large aircraft. I see no reason why your balloon launch platform could not be build to lift whatever mass is needed.

Please continue thinking about this idea.

Update a bit later .... Terraformer, after re-reading your idea, I am hoping you will be willing to clear up a point. It is possible ??? that you have never had occasion to fire a gun? It is possible, although perhaps rare among the NewMars crowd.

I bring this up because Sir Isaac would remind us all that whatever force is given to the projectile carried aloft by a balloon will drive the tube backward to exactly the same degree. On Earth, builders of artillery pieces insure that there is a lot of mechanical give in place to transfer the force of departure of a shell to the Earth. Aloft, the Earth will be unavailable.

The solution that might come to the minds of our readers is equal and opposite force, provided by an equal mass driven backward as the satellite you are launching is driven upward. If the mass is something like water then there is a chance the atmosphere below the vessel will absorb the energy so that it is distributed over the region below as hot water. The shot would be most spectacular, without a doubt.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-18 16:09:51

For Terraformer re post about Baton idea as overkill...

You have an opportunity to take a leadership position in this discussion.

So far as I know, no one has attempted anything like what I think you are proposing, so the rest of us (not being you) are going to need some help from you

At least we understand where GW is coming from ... he's said many times that he believes 1 G is the ** only ** level of gravity that anyone can morally impose on another person, so his design provides 1 G with a gradient that puts slightly less than G on the shoulders of a person while the feet carry the full force. This distribution of force allow all the human body functions to work with the normal load. In an ideal artificial gravity field, such as the fictional one on StarTrek, the distribution of force was uniform from head to foot. The Real Universe is going to be less obliging.

You have an opportunity to request support from members here who have skills that would be needed to design your vision of a space transport that would get people safely from here to Mars while keeping them sane. Apparently you think that a shorter radius rotation facility is worth considering, and funders will pay close attention, but the subjects of your experiment may not appreciate your handiwork.

Let's consider setting up a topic that is more to your liking.... there is no need for you to stay in the Baton topic, now that you have made clear you are not in support of that particular vision.

Follow up: I've asked GW to assist you with the engineering drawings and calculations you are going to need.

For all: If there is another member with appropriate talents, knowledge, skills or experience to assist Terraformer, please let her know.

I'm hoping Terraformer will decide on the name of a new topic for her vision, and I'm confident the members will support her efforts.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-18 18:38:30

For Terraformer re post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 07#p229207

Thank you for helpful feedback on the new topic.

Please give the new topic a moment to see if it can set roots.

Your objection right off the bat may well seem spot on a few days from now.

I have good news for you and other members who might appreciate math tools to help with the new topic.

GW Johnson completed a three file collection that he tells me will enable anyone who can run a spreadsheet to perform the needed calculations. I have the files and had hoped to have them up on NewMars today, but I'm running behind.

The Starship diameter is 9 meters. The 1 G at the head will imply something more than 1 G at the foot, but at this point I don't think anyone other than a math whiz would be able to figure out what that value will be.

Regarding what the rule #2 rules out ... Rule #2 rules out a lot of ideas that might be proposed.

Let's see what you can do with 9 meters before we go back to talk GW out of Rule 2.

I'll try to have the new files up by noon tomorrow, for sure!

(th)

tahanson43206 · Yesterday 21:06:26

For Terraformer re NASA study on rotation training...

Thank you again for finding and posting the link to the study! I am greatly encouraged by the results reported in the paper, even though it has not yet been replicated. The paper received attention during this evening's Google meeting. I am happy to accept the results as given, but neither kbd512 nor GW Johnson were as generous.

They do not appear to be questioning the methodolgy. The are questioning the lack of follow up by peer groups, to independently confirm the results.

This is something you could undertake there in the UK, which is most decidedly independent of the US. The methodology is published, and the original researchers would (presumably) be available for consultation.

it would be most helpful to have follow up studies done to verify the 1.75 rpm daily improvement rate found by the US team.

(th)

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