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For Calliban re low-light plant growth...
Thanks for the link to the report on the Square Root company and it's innovations...
Our members may be interested in this About snippet I found at the bottom of the report:
About Square Roots:
Square Roots is the leading indoor farming platform, built to accelerate agricultural research for a world facing climate crisis. Food suppliers work with Square Roots to lock-in guaranteed supply, develop differentiated produce, and deliver on sustainability commitments. Research organizations use the Square Roots platform to explore novel means and uses of plant production, for food and beyond. Square Roots was founded by serial technology and impact entrepreneurs Kimbal Musk and Tobias Peggs. For more information, visit www.squarerootsgrow.com.Indoor Farming
Vertical Farming
Photosynthesis
Future Of Food
It may surprise no one to confirm that Kimbal Musk is related to Elon:
Short quote:
About
Kimbal James Musk is a South African businessman and restaurateur. He owns The Kitchen Restaurant Group, a collection of restaurants located in Colorado and Chicago. Wikipedia
Born: 1972 (age 52 years), Pretoria, South Africa
Spouse: Christiana Wyly (m. 2018)
Siblings: Tosca Musk, Elon Musk
Education: Queen's University (1995), French Culinary Institute
Parents: Maye Musk, Errol Musk
Long quote:
Kimbal Musk
Wikipedia
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https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Kimbal_Musk
kimbal musk from en.wikipedia.org
Kimbal James Musk (born 20 September 1972) is a South African businessman and restaurateur. He owns The Kitchen Restaurant Group, a collection of ...
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202K Followers, 328 Following, 1440 Posts - ?????? ???? (@kimbalmusk) on Instagram: "Chef, Entrepreneur, Food Activist | Board Tesla⚡️| Founder @TheKitchen ...
Latest posts from Kimbal MuskKimbal Musk
Mind blowing WeRobot event unveiling Tesla #RoboBus #RoboTaxi #Optmius Congratulations to the team and my brother. Thank you to my team @novaskystories for the unforgettable drone Sky Story ?
4 days agokimbalmusk
Mind blowing WeRobot event unveiling Tesla #RoboBus #RoboTaxi #Optmius Congratulations to the team and my brother. Thank you to my team @novaskystories for the unforgettable drone Sky Story ?
4 days agokimbal
X (Twitter)Booster starts in top right corner. Watch to the end. Sound on
5 days agokimbal
X (Twitter)Proud brother ❤️
Thank you Elon. Autonomy is here. 10 years ago it was just an idea.
5 days agokimbalmusk
Congratulations Elon for a wonderful WeRobot event?? @kimbalmusk @toscamusk and I are so proud of you. This @teslamotors reveal was beyond fantastic.??? #TheFutureIsAutonomous #WeRobot #RoboTaxi #RoboVan
6 days agokimbal
X (Twitter)Optimus ? #Robotaxi
1 week agokimbal
X (Twitter)We, Robot @Tesla
1 week agokimbalmusk
? Big news from Big Green ? in 2025, we’ll be bringing even more gardens, grants, and gatherings to communities across the US! Thanks to a transformative gift from @beeple_crap, 100,000 more people will be growing their own food. ?? Beeple has generously donated proceeds from the sale of his incredible artwork, The Tree of Knowledge, to support food justice and conservation efforts across the world, and Big Green is honored to be a beneficiary. We kicked off this summer in Beeple Studios’ backyard, bringing the #BigGreenBus over to Charleston where we collaborated with @chascolibrary to give away hundreds of our Little Green Garden kits! ? But our work together isn’t done, and you can be a part of it, too! For the next 24 hours, Beeple’s limited-edition Tree of Knowledge 3-print series is on sale, with proceeds supporting Big Green. ?? Follow the link in our bio to purchase your print before 10/11 and help fund more gardens in the US! ??
1 week agokimbal
X (Twitter)
? Just dropped! For the next 43 hours only, you can grab a signed @Beeple “Tree of Knowledge” print ? Proceeds support land conservation charity Art into Acres and food justice programs @BigGreen ? avantarte.com/releases/…
1 week agokimbalmusk
0:54
I’m incredibly proud of the work that we are doing with Big Green DAO to change governance and power structures in philanthropy. We believe that the people and groups working on the frontlines of their community know where resources should go. $2.6M in grants to 144 organizations across the US and we’ll keep going. @BigGreen #BigGreenDAO #dao #growingfoodchangeslives ?
2 weeks ago
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Short videosKimbal Musk on fighting his brother Elon over business ...
YouTube · Graham Bensinger
Understanding Elon Musk's Unique Mindset with Kimbal Musk
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Christiana Musk | What a fun surprise gift to @kimbalmusk for ...
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Kimbal Musk says Elon Musk is quite reasonable. 99% of the ...
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Kimbal Musk | God Spoke To Me | It Changed My Life #shorts
YouTube · Danica Patrick
?????? ???? ? | Congratulations to Jennifer who pre ...
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Kimbal Musk: Historic #SpaceX launch was beautiful ?
YouTube · Graham Bensinger
Kimbal Musk: The Future of Tesla Autonomy and Steering ...
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Kimbal Musk talks about the growth mindset. The key is the ...
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Kimbal Musk in 2008 liquidated all his assets to help fund ...
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Kimbal Musk
Facebook · Kimbal Musk
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Chef, Entrepreneur, Author. COOKBOOK: amazon.com/dp/1595911316 CEO of The Kitchen, Big Green, Nova Sky Stories, Board of Directors Tesla.
Videos0:52
Kimbal Musk on fighting his brother Elon over business ...
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1 week ago1:25:04
Kimbal Musk: Working with Elon, taking risks on Tesla, and ...
YouTube · Graham Bensinger
Feb 26, 202419 key moments in this video
1:47:09
Kimbal Musk: The Art of Cooking, Tesla, SpaceX, Zip2, and ...
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Mar 10, 2024
12 key moments in this video
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Kimbal Musk is an entrepreneur, activist, and chef. For over two decades he has co-founded and invested in companies across technology, hospitality, ...Kimbal Musk - Big Green
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4K+ followers
Boulder, Colorado, United States · Big Green
Kimbal Musk is chef, restaurateur, philanthropist, and food entrepreneur. Kimbal's… · Experience: Big Green · Education: International Culinary Center ...Who is Kimbal Musk, the Tesla director in cowboy hat?
Reuters
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https://www.reuters.com › business › autos-transportation
May 31, 2024 — Kimbal Musk was a director of SpaceX from 2002, when it was founded, to January 2022, according to a Tesla proxy filing. He served on Chipotle ...About – Kimbal Musk
kimbalmusk.com
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http://www.kimbalmusk.com › about
Kimbal Musk is a chef, restauranteur, and philanthropist. His personal mission is to pursue an America where everyone has access to real food.Kimbal Musk - Schwab Foundation
Schwab Foundation for Social Entrepreneurship
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https://www.schwabfound.org › awardees › kimbal-musk
kimbal musk from www.schwabfound.org
Kimbal Musk is the Co-Founder of The Kitchen, a growing family of businesses that pursues an America where everyone, everywhere has access to real food.Kimbal Musk: Geek chef
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kimbal musk from www.ktchnrebel.com
Kimbal Musk is involved in his brother's businesses, and has a similar penchant for all things digital, but he has a second passion: cooking.
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About
Kimbal James Musk is a South African businessman and restaurateur. He owns The Kitchen Restaurant Group, a collection of restaurants located in Colorado and Chicago. Wikipedia
Born: 1972 (age 52 years), Pretoria, South Africa
Spouse: Christiana Wyly (m. 2018)
Siblings: Tosca Musk, Elon Musk
Education: Queen's University (1995), French Culinary Institute
Parents: Maye Musk, Errol Musk
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For Calliban re post in dusty uranium topic...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 20#p227720
Please continue developing your idea.
Can you (somehow) pull power from the stream you've designed, so the fission can sustain the power needed while producing thrust?
A moving ion will itself carry a magnetic field. If that field can (somehow) be harnessed on it's way to the exit, it might move electrons in a wire, and that movement might (somehow) make it's way back to the coils to generate the field you've described.
Can coils along the passage alternate between those for guidance/constraint, and those to capture energy?
As a side note ... this entire dusty uranium idea seems like Orion bombs at the nanoscale level.
If it can be made to work, it would seem a ** whole ** lot more efficient.
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For Calliban re links about methane in Iron on Mars topic...
Thanks for the link from 2015, and the later one from 2021.
The forum has a number of topics that contain the word "methane"...
Your post might fit well in one of those, as well as in the iron topic.
I'm hoping we have a member willing to investigate to see if there are any follow up studies for either of the links you provided.
Without new instruments on the ground at Mars it's difficult to learn more, but the orbiters are still collecting data.
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For Calliban re testing of new FluBB web site...
Please log into the new system at http://newmars.com/new/
Please post a message there to confirm you were able to log in, and to report your observations.
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For Calliban ...
I followed a link you provided about sulfur, and next to it was an article about possible limits to what any civilization might be able to achieve with technology.
https://www.space.com/lack-of-intellige … ment-limit
I thought of you immediately, because ** I think ** you posted something along these lines recently.
It might have even been the same article, so I'm wondering if you recognize it.
The author poses the interesting hypothesis that as our civilizations grows more complex, with increasing levels of specialization, we may push up against diminishing returns. I hope someone in the active membership will take a look at the article and report on whether it seems to make sense.
One of the arguments the author makes rings a bell from your earlier post ... the author cited the lack of fundamental discoveries after 100 years, following discovery of relativity and quantum mechanics.
The hypothesis would be reset if a brilliant human who may be alive on Earth today makes another discovery of similar magnitude.
In the mean time, the author does appear to concede that radio communication could provide a way for civilizations scattered across the galaxy to get in touch. Humans have been doing SETI in various ways for decades. The author even cites the famous "Wow" signal, whose discoverers are still alive the the community where I live. That was a burst of radio energy in the water hole that the computer equipment in use at the time was unable to save data in sufficient detail to pull out any information that might have been present. The signal might have been caused (and was most probably caused) by a natural process. Great efforts were made to rule out human caused transmission, such as by a satellite that might have wandered into the search field at the time, and nothing was ever found.
Edward Lerner has written a series of novels about what a galactic radio network might look like, and how it might work.
In short, I think there remains a possibility that something might be discovered in this field, at some point.
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For Calliban re Post about steerable stars...
Thanks for the link you provided...
I recognized the author... His bio covers a lot of adventures, but omits his leadership of a local science center.
While he was in town he created a number of articles about science.
The scenario he covers in the article you cited is a bit of a stretch for most folks, but Dr. Sutter has the ability to present concepts like that in a way that I ** think ** a lot of readers would find accessible.
You asked why a civilization would bother moving the entire star (and the planets) when they could just build an O'Neill cylinder and go anywhere. I think that's a reasonable question, but I get the impression no one has found such a civilization on the move.
My own guess is that perhaps such fast moving stars may have encountered one too many other stars in a galactic merger.
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For Calliban re food production from acetate...
RobertDyck has recently returned to one of his themes, which is a bias in favor of "natural" (presumably organic) foods.
You are the person I think of who brought acetate to our attention as a food stock for plants. My recollection is that the research you cited was able to grow plants without using photosynthesis.
I'm hoping you might be willing to become a champion for this idea, so that we can develop a robust competition between the organic foods side of the house, and the industrial scale least cost food production options that may be available.
Is it possible for an entrepreneur to create a useful (salable) product using the method you've reported?
What I'm wondering is if human ingenuity might provide a counter to inflation, by providing healthy food that is free of pesticides at a cost far below traditional open air agriculture.
If current plans hold, the cost of open air agriculture may sky rocket, so an alternative might be welcomed.
Question: Can acetate provide nutrients to plants that can be fed to ruminants?
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For Calliban re http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 46#p228346
Thank you for your endorsement of the initiative that Louis reported! That topic sat idle for quite a while, so it is good to see renewed interest.
Can I encourage you to do a bit more with it? I ask because at the moment, the topic doesn't seem all that helpful to me. It certainly shows where to look on the open Internet, but the topic itself appears not to contain much useful information.
RobertDyck has a fairly firm idea of how he would prepare food for his passengers on Large Ship, but neither kbd512 or GW Johnson have gotten that far with their two counter-rotating habitat vessel concepts. If the matter is of interest, please add content to the topics that might be helpful for both of these gents as they try to plan the space they'll need on their vessels to supplement the habitat rings.
There's going to be a lot going on in both those vessels. They have to maintain the balance of those gigantic wheels while providing for propulsion, navigation, reliable power, radiation protection, waste processing, fresh water and plenty of nourishing food for the passengers and crew.
Your interest in non-RobertDyckian food production is what inspires me to hope you might be willing to add to the collection here in the forum.
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For Calliban re acetate as a nutrient for plants
We have a NewMars member who appears not to recognize acetate as a healthy molecule for plants.
I thought (and hope) that you might be interested in seeing what Google came up with when I asked about the safety of acetate.
Search Labs | AI Overview
Learn more
Yes, acetate is considered an acceptable nutrient for plants, as it is a readily recognized and utilized compound by plants, often used as a carrier molecule to deliver other essential nutrients like potassium, calcium, or iron, allowing for faster absorption and improved plant health; particularly when used in foliar applications.
Key points about acetate as a plant nutrient:Natural origin:
Plants naturally produce acetic acid (the compound that forms acetate), making it easily recognizable and absorbed.Nutrient delivery:
Acetate can be used as a carrier molecule to deliver essential minerals like potassium, calcium, and iron directly to the plant.
Root development:
Some studies suggest acetate can promote root development by aiding in auxin production.Improved uptake:
Compared to other chelating agents, acetate can facilitate faster nutrient uptake when applied as a foliar spray.Acetate is also a very important part of signaling compounds (flavonoids, lipochitooligosaccharides, etc.) which promote plant-soi...
NachursAcetate Fertilizer | CultivAce Products
It can be used for all crops and has been proven to yield amazing results, every time. ... To aid the production of auxins, root f...CultivAce
CaAce 5% Calcium Acetate Liquid Fertilizer | CultivAce Products
It regulates enzyme activity, influencing essential biochemical reactions necessary for growth, nutrient absorption, and overall p...
CultivAceShow all
Show more
Acetates are derived from acetic acid, a compound made and used by plants. Because plants utilize acetic acid, acetates are something a plant can recognize more efficiently, which is part of the reason the plant more readily absorbs acetates. Acetates form weaker bonds and fewer bonds with a nutrient.
May 31, 2024
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For Calliban re kbd512 initiative to try to collect solar power in a way that does not involve mirrors...
I am assuming your schedule precludes reading everything published on the forum.
kbd512 has been in a creative mode recently.
His current investigation of how to capture photons in space is leading in interesting directions.
A requirement for capturing useful amount of energy in the open space environment is "ownership" of space.
An example might be a solar energy collection platform 100 kilometers long, and stretching to either side of a central bus 100 meters or so.
This system would require ultra lightweight and ultra strong girders, and these might be made from carbon.
Your skill set includes the ability to design girders for this application, and they could be rendered by persons with 3D Printers, so they can move out of the realm of pure theory into practical evaluation.
Your demonstrated skill with hand tools might extend to delivery of inputs to drawing programs, and if you are interested in venturing into that realm, I would be happy to follow along.
kbd512 recently published a concept for a solar powered vehicle that could generate just under a ton of thrust by heating hydrogen.
The size of that structure was included in at least one of kbd512's recent posts, or It's possible he might respond to a question.
I'm hoping you might be willing to design the frame for that vessel.
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for Calliban re mention of 3D printing in recent post about oil....
Your mention of 3D Printing caught my eye. You included 3D Printing in your post as an example of a technology that might help to reduce consumption of energy,
I think there may be a future for small business offering of 3D Printing. At the moment, we do have a number of entrepreneurs offering 3D Printing services over the Internet, and I've patronized several of them. The prices were reasonable and the service was satisfactory.
One larger company attempted a global effort, and I had a small online shop with them, but they overextended and closed their doors. Meanwhile, corporate use of 3D Printing has reached sizable proportions. I don't know the details of most usage, but do note that there are reported to be rockets made entirely with 3D printing, and there are hints that SpaceX may be using 3D printing for some parts.
Locally, I am talking to a non-profit organization which might get interested in setting up a 3D printing service. They would be charging the cost of materials (ie, filament) plus a small commission to help cover organizational costs. Everything else would be donated. I think this is a business model that might work, because the products are likely to be produced for less that the cost from Amazon, and the products can be personalized easily, which is NOT the case with Amazon. Amazon won't miss the business, nor will China.
I found a web site which appears to offer some insight into the state of play of 3D printing with metal.
https://www.twi-global.com/technical-kn … -use-metal
I saw a hint of an experimental arc ? welding ? 3D printing concept, but don't have anything to go on at this point.
The idea of reducing the capitalist supply chain is going to catch on. You've already reported a motivation, in reduced energy consumption for small runs.
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For Calliban re Nuclear Fission reactor design for Venus at the surface...
Of all NewMars members (I know about) you are by far the best qualified to design a nuclear fission reactor that could function in the challenging environment at the surface of Venus.
It seems to me the conditions are:
1) "Cold" atmosphere is about 500 degrees Celsius
2) "Hot" radiator temperature of 1200 degrees is possible
3) Nuclear fission reactor is a heat engine that has it's own optimum temperature for operation
The details of how those heat flows would be managed would by most interesting to study, if you can find the time to work them up.
Kbd512 has been researching materials and components that can operate reliably at 500 Celsius.
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Reminder of request for assistance on behalf of Venus exploration topics:
For Calliban re Nuclear Fission reactor design for Venus at the surface...
Of all NewMars members (I know about) you are by far the best qualified to design a nuclear fission reactor that could function in the challenging environment at the surface of Venus.
It seems to me the conditions are:
1) "Cold" atmosphere is about 500 degrees Celsius
2) "Hot" radiator temperature of 1200 degrees is possible
3) Nuclear fission reactor is a heat engine that has it's own optimum temperature for operationThe details of how those heat flows would be managed would by most interesting to study, if you can find the time to work them up.
Kbd512 has been researching materials and components that can operate reliably at 500 Celsius.
I think this problem may be solvable but I'm not sure.
I ** do ** know that with investment of outside energy, a sample of matter can be cooled below the ambient temperature.
There are many examples, but an ordinary refrigerator shows that if the ambient temperature is 25 Celsius, then the interior of the refrigerator can be cooled to 0 Celsius or below. The radiator will be brought to a temperature above ambient so that thermal energy is dumped into the external environment.
The case of the Venus probe is interesting, because there is no external energy available.
The energy we are considering is that produced by a nuclear fission reactor, and it will be running at some temperature above ambient. In order for work to be done to compress a working fluid to 1200 Celsius, the reactor must have available a cool side that allows a heat engine to do work. However, that cool side will be the result of the work done to compress the working fluid. What I'm not clear on is whether the laws of thermodynamics permit this operation.
We have members of this forum who appear to believe it is possible, but I suspect this is just conjecture. I am hoping this call for assistance will lead to information that is definitive and thus valuable.
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TH, I will look into this. At the temperatures you describe, the best option would be a small helium cooled reactor with a carbon compisite fuel matrix. At such a high temperature, it will be difficult to find materials capable of functioning as pressure components. A direct cycle is probably the most compact arrangement that minimises overall mass.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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For Calliban re #164
Thank you ** very ** much for taking this on. GW Johnson confirmed the thermal flows would work from a broad brush perspective. Then kbd512 dove deep into the math, and his work shows that the 800 Celsius system would work, but a 1200 Celsius system would work even better. The details of how a system would work in the challenging Venus surface environment remain to be developed.
If we can interest NASA in the venture, then KRUSTRY is a possibility, because NASA has the necessary credentials to use highly enriched fuel. Other than NASA, it would be necessary to work with power plant grade fuel, and even that would require a lot of work to secure approvals.
***
While I'm here, I'd like to offer congratulations for the handsome gardening knife you made for your father-in-law! That handle is impressive in it's own right! And while the quality of the blade does not show up in the image, your description shows the skill you've achieved. I noted your use of a wood fire to achieve 900 Celsius. That technology takes you back a thousand years or so, and puts you in a cadre of those who created tools and weapons for rulers of their day.
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For Calliban re Venus probe....
This post is a follow on to #165, but it's following a lead that arrives from a (perhaps) surprising source...
I am working with GW Johnson on several projects he is pursuing. He has a book in very early stages about Space Tugs. He is still working through combinations of vehicles to support various mission objectives, so it may be a while before everything gels.
A book project I am interested in is a book about space navigation for kids. GW is not the driver on this project, but his work is the inspiration, starting with the course he put together that is published here in this forum, about ellipses ... "Orbital Mechanics Class Traditional".
In pursuit of the kids book project, I've been looking at science books for kids, and decided to invest in one that (it turns out) was published in the UK, with association with the UK Space Agency. I am not surprised that the UK has a space agency, but I admit to not knowing much about it.
I bring this up because the Venus probe for which (I am hoping) you will be designing a reactor might be affordable by the UK. I understand that there are many factors that combine to encourage or discourage space investment in any nation, and the UK appears to have pulled the plug on the space plane project that would have used a remarkable technology to cool air rapidly using liquid hydrogen as a coolant. The fact of the investment for years tells me that there is ** some ** interest in competing in the space business in UK leadership.
A Venus probe would be a partnership with NASA or ESA. The key element I'm thinking about is the fissionable material that would be needed.
The UK manages it's own fission fuels, and is completely independent of the US (or anyone else).
If you design a reactor that could power a probe that could explore Venus just above the surface, the way a deep sea submersible explores the ocean bed, the project would put the UK on the map on Earth, and it would allow the UK to ** create ** the ground map on Venus.
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For Calliban re Venus probe concept....
kbd512 has described an interesting concept for powering machines on Venus, using pure carbon and oxygen, separated from the abundant CO2.
If I understand kbd512's concept correctly, the machinery would operate entirely at the ambient temperatures at the surface of Venus, totally eliminating the need for cooling.
This vision would require an abundance of nuclear power (fission to begin with) in a "mothership" to produce the fuel and oxidizer for the machinery.
This vision might be added to the power requirements for the mothership, which I had originally imagined as a buoyant vessel operating just above the surface and able to move about as needed for exploration and data collection.
kbd512 seems confident the preferred highly enriched fissionable material would not be available in the United States, so this remains an opportunity for the UK, which is independent of the US.
Even reactor grade fissionable material might work in the Venus scenario, but the vessel would (of course) be larger.
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It is tricky to design a reactor to operate at the required high temperatures. Ambient temperature on Venus is 500°C. If the reactor outlet temperature is 1000°C, then carnot efficiency will be 39%. Practical efficiency for a small device is maybe half that. There are problems with such high operating temperatures. Firstly, most cladding materials lose a lot of strength at temperatures greater than 1000°C. Secondly, coolants become more reactive with cladding at high temperatures. Thirdly, fission product diffusion increases with temperature.
Probably the closest technological fit that has been realised so far is the Very High Temperature Reactor (VHTR). This uses triso type fuel, with uranium carbide fuel particles encased in concentric shells of graphite. For the Venus probe application, the plant needs to be compact in overall terms. This suggests a fast reactor, with minimal moderation. We would also exclude heat exchangers and opt for a direct cycle. A small gas-cooled fast reactor will be the best fit technology. CO2 is too reactive at these temperatures, so coolant will need to be helium. HALEU fuel at 20% enrichment could be used as fuel material. Or U-Pu mixed carbide fuel. Decay heat removal strategy can be based on natural heat loss at these temperatures.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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For Calliban re #168 ...
Thank you for taking up the fission power for Venus probe question....
it sounds as though you think there is a chance there might be a solution to the challenge.
It ** also ** came across to me that the net system efficiency might be on the order of 20%, but we are talking about 20% of nuclear fission power, so I am hoping it will turn out that electrical power will be available in sufficient quantity to:
1) Cool the electronics that needs to be kept cool
2) Provide for mobility (driving fans on the outside of the submersible, for example)
3) Provide for communications with overhead stations floating in the atmosphere, or with satellites
4) Provide for communications with mobile devices that kbd512 is thinking about
5) Provide for creation of fuel and oxidizer for kbd512's mobile devices
6) Other needs as folks think of them
If you have time (and I know that is precious), could you solidify the concepts a bit?
In particular, design of the radiators will be challenging. I understand your recommendation is to use helium as a coolant.
I am reminded of the James Webb telescope that uses helium as the working fluid to reach temperatures on the order of 7 Kelvin, from a base of -183 Celsius that is provided by the five layer sun shade.
The radiators need to survive in an atmosphere at 500 Celsius that includes reactive substances in addition to CO2.
Those radiators will be pumping thermal energy at 1000 Celsius into that 500 Celsius environment without a break for years.
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For Calliban re post with link to low power no battery living...
Thanks for that link. I found a section that I will show to kbd512. You may recall that kbd512's home is solar powered, but it is dependent on the utility, and the refrigerator was not held up adequately during a week long power outage.
A section the article at the link you provided was about a battery free solar powered refrigerator. A detail was that the door opened on top, and since cold air is heavier, less loss occurs when the door is opened. In addition, the insulation is much thicker.
Non-electric energy storage
A third reason why direct solar power is more practical than it initially seems is that some electrical appliances can be used after sunset thanks to thermal energy storage. This is much cheaper and more sustainable than electrical energy storage. Thermal energy storage is already fairly well established for space and water heating systems, which store solar-heated water in an insulated boiler or (for space heating only) in the building envelope. It is no surprise that the Living Energy Farm has such systems, and solar thermal energy also provides hot water in my flat.
However, the same approach also works for two important household appliances that need to work after sunset and also consume a lot of electricity: the fridge and the cooker. Instead of storing electricity from a solar panel in a battery to then power a fridge or cooker after sunset, these appliances on the Living Energy Farm use thermal insulation. This keeps the heat inside (in the case of the cooker) or outside (in the case of the fridge) when there is no power supply. The thermal insulation also ensures very high energy efficiency, which means that each of these appliances can already operate on a solar panel of just 100-200 watts.
A direct solar-powered fridgeIt is perfectly possible to connect a conventional fridge or freezer directly to a solar panel, but such an appliance would heat up very quickly at night. Even refrigerators with the most energy-efficient labels have a relatively limited insulation thickness (usually 2.5 cm). However, if that insulation thickness is increased to about 12.5 cm, the energy consumption of a refrigerator drops by a factor of four. 12 13 The passive cooling capacity of a refrigerator can be further increased by adding thermal mass in the form of a water tank inside the appliance. During the day, the solar panel cools the water or converts it to ice. At night, this cold water or ice slows down the heating of the refrigerator. 14
A direct solar-powered fridge also opens at the top, not at the front. Cold air is heavy, and so much less energy is lost that way when someone opens the door. All these design choices add up to spectacular energy efficiency. A study of direct solar refrigerators in very sunny regions (Texas and New Mexico, USA) showed that they maintained their cooling capacity for 6 or 7 days without power supply. The units operated year-round with solar panels of only 80W to 120W. 15 The Living Energy Farm powers its solar refrigerator with a 200W panel. 10
Image: The Sundanzer DDR165. A refrigerator designed specifically for direct solar power. Photo: Sundanzer.
Image: The Sundanzer DDR165. A refrigerator designed specifically for direct solar power. Photo: Sundanzer.Unlike solar heating, solar cooling is optimally tuned to seasonal variations in solar radiation. Cooling requires more energy in summer, when there is more solar energy. The aforementioned refrigerator in New Mexico recorded electricity consumption of 406 watt-hours per day in summer and only 230 watt-hours in winter. 16 Moreover, the technology can be used throughout the cold chain, of which the household refrigerator is only a small (but essential) part. Another application is air cooling, although this is less well researched and more challenging. 17
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For Calliban re interesting ideas in solar panel topic ...
The point raised in the article (and mentioned in your posts on several occasions) is that storage of solar power is not very efficient or cost effective if batteries are used. Even dead weight energy storage systems are subject to losses as energy is converted from potential gravitational energy to electricity.
In other topics, kbd512 is investigating ways of capturing photons other than by using mirrors or solar panels. That work is very much the early stages right now, and it may ultimately turn out to be another dead end.
However, your post about solar power inspired the thought that I have never heard of photon storage, except in science fiction.
In the early days of computing there was a hardware device called a delay line. Bits could be inserted into the delay line and they would come out some time later. My (vague) recollection was that computers were so slow that an intermediate result of a calculation needed to be stored, and a hardware delay line was a cost effective solution at the time.
Science fiction has a wide range of speculation .... I recall reading a story about a fanciful invention called "Slow Glass". This material was able to slow light so greatly that it would take years for a photon to pass through the glass to appear on the other side.
I read recently that mirrors work by actually absorbing photons and re-emitting them. There is (apparently) little delay in that transaction.
I'll conclude this post with the observation that if "slow glass" existed and it had a delay of 8 hours or so, then it could absorb light during the day and emit that light into solar panels at night, so that a steady flow of solar power could be achieved.
At this point, that concept is science fiction, but perhaps there is some research going on somewhere that might lead in that direction.
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For Calliban...
Re Post #171 above, kbd512 reported news about photon storage.
The medium is phosphorescent materials, so power density is low, and power delivery is low, but apparently extended storage is possible.
However, my reason for this post is to offer a link to an article about the status of SPS in 2023
https://www.gravel2gavel.com/microwave- … lar-power/
What's surprising to me is that the article is published in a web site for discussion of legal issues.
It seemed to me the article was well written and balanced, and totally free of hype, as might be expected from practicing lawyers.
I bring this to your attention because a UK company is mentioned, and your idea of building at LMO and deploying to GEO (or LEO for some systems) might allow costs to be reduced.
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For Calliban re membership....
Thank you for your comments about membership....
The only thing about this board that is less than ideal is that it has too few members to really function as a forum and raise new ideas. There are a mere handful of us. We need to do something about that.
We've been running a campaign to bring in new members since SpaceNut shut off the spammers. We brought in five new members, and none are active.
This is an environment that appears to require a particular kind of personality to survive, let alone prosper.
Positive feedback is hard to come by, and negative feedback is present in abundance.
Each member is welcome to encourage friends to join. The admission process is simple and goes quickly, if a person is recommended by a member.. My guess is that only the most robust of friendships would survive this environment for long.
We've posted the admission procedure every day since SpaceNut closed off open registration to block spammers, and we check the email account every day to see if anyone is interested in joining. The mechanisms for admitting new members are in place, but the flow has been low and the long term results disappointing so far.
If you would like to build up a small cadre of your peers, the mechanism is in place for that to happen quickly.
I was recruited by Terraformer, and am possibly the only member who came into the group by invitation. I don't actually know how our current members became aware of this forum, and how they decided to join, but would certainly be interested in their stories. We only have five or six active members. It won't take long to learn about such a small number.
Update ... and speaking of positive feedback, congratulations on your success in making a strong (and I'll bet good looking) gardening tool for your son!
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For Calliban re (to me surprising) contribution to Terraformer's new topic: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 79#p229179
The difference in scale, from asteroid belt navigation to shuttle launches is appropriate for NewMars.
I'm hoping you (or someone) is inspired to see what might be done with this idea. Solar thermal energy fed directly into a hot store seems do-able to me. how large a system based upon this concept could be is an interesting question.
Heck, a variation of this idea might be used to launch gliders. As you (most likely) know, the most common means of lifting a glider to operating altitude is as a tow behind a sturdy piston powered aircraft.
Another popular glider launch method is a winch. The disadvantage is that the direction of launch is fixed, but on the other hand, it is (or would seem to be) less complex than an aircraft two, and the winch operator does not need to be a certified pilot.
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For Calliban re topic: Ferris Wheel on the Moon....
I was hoping someone would pick up on the topic, but no one did...
I am wondering if physics of materials would allow a Ferris wheel to be built on the moon, large enough to reach a useful altitude.
Serious work has been done on Space Elevator for the Moon. A notable paper was prepared by Jerome Pearson on a NASA grant.
In this topic, I am looking at compression as opposed to tension. As I recall, Pearson found that existing materials can support a Lunar elevator.
The most common metal on the Moon would appear to be Aluminum, and it may not be strong enough to support a Ferris Wheel large enough to reach a useful altitude.
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