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There's not much in aviation that's truly been standardized, because interoperability is not typically vitally important. There's no global or near-global standard for jet fuel. One would think that would be critically important for airliners that routinely fly between continents and refuel using different grades of kerosene with different additives packages. Here in North / South America we mostly use Jet-A. In Europe, they typically use the more highly refined Jet-A1. The additives can be very different across North America. Canada uses a very healthy amount of additive to inhibit freezing. In Texas or Mexico? Not quite as much. Any jet operates in frigid temperatures, but ground handling and fuel temperature dictate that the fuel cannot have the consistency of maple syrup. As long as the base fuel stock is nominally a kerosene derivative with additives that won't allow the fuel to congeal at low temperatures, jet engines the world over don't seem to have much of an issue with converting whatever grade of kerosene is available into noise.
As far as the space suit interoperability issues are concerned, if NASA is ultimately paying for these development efforts, and in every case of a suit flown in space they most certainly are, one would hope that they have the forethought to enforce interoperability standards in the suit design specifications before money is handed out. Not being able to plug your O2 hose into a Starliner or Dragon capsule after a disaster forces a change of plans seems like a really dumb way to die.
I don't know all of RobertDyck's opinions on this, but I think he and I generally agree that mechanical counter-pressure suits remain the lightest and most versatile of the available options. While they are the most highly tailored-to-fit suits, and can be somewhat uncomfortable in a high pressure atmosphere, they also provide the greatest range of motion and manual dexterity for minimal effort / calorie burn on the part of the wearer. Manual dexterity is the difference between someone being able to complete fine motor manipulation tasks quickly and easily, or clumsily fumbling about for extended periods of time. From talking to the man who repaired the Hubble Space Telescope, that task could've gone a bit faster if merely grasping the tools wasn't a chore. Emergency escape / depressurization protection aside, the entire reason for having EVA suits is to accomplish fine manipulation tasks using human hands, in the vacuum of space. This suit design serves both purposes, with additional temperature protection added as required. None of the current space suits are really suitable for that sort of manipulation. They're all beautified "gas bags".
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For RobertDyck re new post in Thermal Management topic
Thanks for this very nice addition to the topic!
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For RobertDyck...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 02#p226702
News from SpaceNut..
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For RobertDyck re recent fusion initiative....
One of the benefits of a forum like this one is the support that can be provided for innovative thinking.
Not every member of a forum like this one is inclined to provide support, but a few are, from time to time.
In the case of your recent initiative, I think the opportunity is there for some learning experiences, because fusion is itself such a deep field, in which multiple generations of the world's brightest people have made incremental gains but are still far from a working solution.
You started out with an observation about the behavior of matter interacting in sound waves. From this, it appears to me you might have extrapolated to the field of atomic fusion. I offered you the opportunity to begin the learning process by finding the velocity that a deuterium atom must have in order for it to overcome the atomic force of the nucleus of another such atom. If you are able to find that velocity, it would make a great (valuable) addition to the topic you created.
I think of this forum as a place where readers who are not members can find thoughtful discussion of often difficult subjects.
There's a lot of lighter content in the forum, without a doubt, but topics with serious titles have at least the potential to become resources for learning.
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For RobertDyck re conversation with Calliban about the future...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 17#p227217
Thanks for that thoughtful reminder of the positive influence of the Star Trek franchise.
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For RobertDyck re Thanksgiving in Canada!
Thanks for the reports of you and your girl friend preparing for the Day!
Best wishes for success with dinner preparations!
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For RobertDyck re opportunities for follow up ...
Off the top...
How'd the turkey turn out?
What is new about the scanners you installed?
And how did the installation go?
The fusion topic had a promising opening and then went into stealth mode.
What I'm hoping someone will add to the topic is the velocity a deuterium atom must have to penetrate the defenses of another deuterium atom.
Large Ship ... GW Johnson has posted a design for a counter-rotating Aldrin Cycler... He decided NOT to adopt your recommendation for the Mars equivalent environment. His argument is basically that 1 G and 1 STM are what his customers expect so he'll provide it.
I think your argument, in favor of a Mars Environment from the outset for ** all ** deep space missions is strong on multiple points:
1) No pre-breath for space suit excursions
2) Less stress on the interior of the vessel due to 1/2 the pressure
3) Less stress on the structure due to Mars equivalent gravity
4) Less loss due to leaks because of 1/2 pressure.
There may be other points I've missed.
However, this ** is ** an opportunity for you to study GW's design to see if there is anything you want to consider for Large Ship.
I think you'll find that chances of funding will improve if you adopt a counter rotating design. Potential captains will appreciate the stability that design offers.
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For RobertDyck re testing of new FluBB web site...
Please log into the new system at http://newmars.com/new/
Please post a message there to confirm you were able to log in, and to report your observations.
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For RobertDyck re new posts ...
Thanks for the posts in mid-November 2024...
The ballistic missile launch from Russia to Ukraine is certainly a provocation.
I saw news reports recently that Russia has instructed it's citizens to build bomb shelters.
***
The reminder of NASA study of gravity simulation with rotation was ** really ** interesting.
Management of the forces involved would probably require technology not available at the time.
Even today, using the rigid baton design GW Johnson has published would be difficult to manage.
Such a system would most certainly need active computer control of the center of gravity.
I'll take a look to see if the forum has a topic for such a system.
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For RobertDyck re post in huamans topic ....
Thanks for that timely reminder of MOOSE. It sure would be appropriate now, if Sunni were willing to trust her life to it.
It's good to see you back on the board recently!
Please consider logging into the new system and posting a message there.
With any luck, kbd512 will carry the system over the last hurdle this weekend.
You can still see it with the Air and Earth bug, if you want to.
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For RobertDyck re series in the Diet topic...
You are really on a roll, and I am delighted to have (inadvertently) provided a venue that inspires your interest!
I will try to update the index post #2, but I may fall behind. I started that index post idea in hopes it would allow us to make our forum more useful for readers, but I can see that it would take nearly a full time volunteer to keep up with the flow if things become more active.
You may recall I created an index to Large Ship at one point. That is a model for what is possible, if we had volunteers interested in doing the work.
Regarding your worry about methanol .... I think this is well worth serious study. My hypothesis is that nature must take toxic molecules as input to complex molecules, and I'll bet that methanol is such a basic building block it must feed into any number of molecule construction processes.
In addition, at this point, no one in this forum has confessed to actually studying the Chinese work. For all we know, the methanol molecule may be a convenient temporary storage form to hold the atoms needed to make desirable molecules
In addition, no one in this forum has confessed to knowing anything about starch.
The questions that come to ** my ** mind are: How does nature make starch? How do the Chinese make starch from methanol?
You've sung the praises of ethanol on several occasions in this forum, and I believe those praises are justified. How difficult would it be to make ethanol from water and carbon dioxide?
What I'm interested in is the possibility of eliminating the dependency on the natural companions we enjoy and share on Earth. You've shown how peas can provide us with needed molecules, and that work is important. It may even be essential for human survival away from Earth. I would like to see an option available to enable humans to survive without the web of life that sustains us today.
Survival is one thing. Enjoying living is something else. The natural world we enjoy on Earth provides a rich tapestry of experiences that give most humans moments of happiness that sustain their well being. It seems likely to me that humans are going to want to recreate the rich assortment of living things that surround us on Earth, wherever they go in future centuries.
What I'm interested in is finding a set of procedures that sever the dependency. We see an example of what that might look like when we take a voyage or a journey and take all our supplies with us.
What I'm proposing is NOT in competition with all the natural molecules your posts celebrate, but instead, is intended as a conceptual equivalent of C rations for US military in deployment situations.
It seems to me that the Chinese investigation of production of starch from water and CO2 is a good start.
Calliban's reporting of acetate for plant growth is something a bit different. That appears to be a way of growing normal plants without any or much photosynthesis.
At the same time, your proposals for taking advantage of abundant sunlight by growing plants in Large Ship are something I'm hoping our NewMars members will encourage and hopefully implement at some point.
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For RobertDyck re interesting post in Diet topic...
Please glance at this post: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 30#p174230
It occurred to me to add a direct link to a post that I've added to the index for a topic.
It seems to me the recipe you've shown would stand on it's own, if we had a topic for recipe's for Mars dwellers.
Aside from the spices, which may require a bit of special effort to grow, it looks to me as though the ingredients in Egypt's National Dish ought to be growable on Mars above or below ground.
We do not currently have an active member who is interested in nutrition ** and ** in agriculture, but we sure do have plenty of opportunity for someone who might join the group in order to expand those interests.
I recognize that you are interested in ** both ** those topics, but your interests cover so many ** other ** specialties you can only afford a bit of time for each of them.
Let's take the recipe an element at a time:
1) lentils ... It seems to me these have to be grown from seed. However, surface or underground options might work
If we had a volunteer who wanted to devote every waking hour to thinking about how this could be done on Mars, we might eventually get somewhere. Calliban has offered a hint that it might be possible to grow some plants with acetate as a primary food source. I'd like to see investigation if lentils could be grown this way.
2) cumin ... I'm familiar with cumin as a powder but do not know it's source. My guess it is a plant native to India.
In any case, if humans on Mars want cumin, someone needs to figure out how to grow it.
3) garlic ... OK ... a plant that grows underground
This should grow in a suitable environment on Mars. I'd like to see study of both surface and underground options.
4) bay leaf .... a plant that grows above ground ...
This should grow in a suitable environment on Mars. I'd like to see study of both surface and underground options.
5) rice ... a plant that grows above ground in a paddy that is flooded with water
Rice might be a candidate for hydroponics ....
6) vegetable oil .... Hoo Boy! There'd be a lot of time and effort needed to satisfy ** that ** ingredient
This category should grow in a suitable environment on Mars. I'd like to see study of both surface and underground options.
7) vegetable stock ... Amazing how something so basic will need a complex set of precursors
This should grow in a suitable environment on Mars. I'd like to see study of both surface and underground options.
8) Macaroni -- flour .... wheat ... Efforts to grow wheat in non-traditional soil substitutes have not yet been successful, as far as I know
This should grow in a suitable environment on Mars. I'd like to see study of both surface and underground options.
9) Tomatoes .... these ** should ** be growable on Mars
This should grow in a suitable environment on Mars. I'd like to see study of both surface and underground options.
10) onion --- another underground vegetable like garlic
This should grow in a suitable environment on Mars. I'd like to see study of both surface and underground options.
11) red wine vinegar .... apples or grapes .... both would require lots of space regardless of how they are grown
This should grow in a suitable environment on Mars. I'd like to see study of both surface and underground options.
12) Bharat spice blend .... interesting .... see addendum below
This should grow in a suitable environment on Mars. I'd like to see study of both surface and underground options.
13) red chili flakes ... Above ground plant ...
This should grow in a suitable environment on Mars. I'd like to see study of both surface and underground options.
Summary: In this one dish, you (RobertDyck) have encapsulated a significant fraction of the agricultural establishment that is needed for a satisfying and nourishing meal on Mars (or anywhere, for that matter).
Addendum for Baharat:
Baharat Ingredients
The ingredients in baharat are:Black peppercorns
Cumin seeds
Coriander seeds
Whole cloves
Cardamom seeds
Paprika
Ground cinnamon
Ground nutmeg
Note that we’re using whole spices. There is simply no comparison between using pre-ground and toasting and grinding your own whole spices.
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For RobertDyck...
Inspired by your renewed writing on foods that would be desirable (as well as necessary) on Mars, I've created a new Project topic for someone (probably a new member) to use to report on development of plans for a reliable greenhouse design for Mars.
I've picked up on the estimate of 400 square meters per person of greenhouse space, as recently published by Calliban.
This is a size (4 meters by 10) that seems "human sized" to me. These greenhouses would be mostly tended by robots (supervised by remote control by humans), and they would tend to specialize but to include a variety of plants that nurture/support each other.
By building lots of greenhouses this size, Mars residents will reduce the flow/distribution of pathogens, and thus improve the reliability of the greenhouse system.
Mass production of components will allow for optimization of production costs.
Humans tending these plots will gain knowledge and skill that is immediately transferable to plots that run into trouble.
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For RobertDyck re post .... http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 13#p228213
Thanks for the review of the Three Sisters (and their relatives)...
I went back to the top of the topic, and found you had engaged with Louis in a sort-of debate about soil vs hydroponics.
My impression is that at the time (a number of Earth years ago) you did not know about perchlorates, or you would surely have mentioned it.
This may be a good time for you to review your opening of that topic, to see if you might make changes based upon new knowledge.
Reminder... Logins to this forum will be disabled at Noon New Hampshire time. I'm planning to post live updates on the phpBB3 site we set up for evaluation.
It actually is a pretty nice site, but the folks working on the problem decided to stay with FluxBB. I think that is a good decision for the long run, because we now "own" the software and can add new features after the conversion is complete.
We've received some support for a like feature, and I've recently thought how nice it would be to be able to change the time period of the Active lookup.
There may be other features we'd like to consider, at some point.
In any case, we should be back online a few hours after we start, and you'll be able to continue adding content to the various topics you've invested in over the years.
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For RobertDyck ...
kbd512 and I are online in Google Meeting if you want to join.
Use the link at the top of the Google topic.
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For RobertDyck re "organic"
I was under the impression you were advocating "natural" as opposed to "synthetic" food production.
I asked Google to look up the meaning of the word "organic" and it appears you may have a different understanding of the word, or, it may be that your chloroplasts are indeed genetically modified. I vaguely recall your having stated something along those lines in the past.
If your chloroplasts are indeed genetically modified, then I accept the correction.
if the chloroplasts are NOT genetically modified, and they are grown in sterile water, then they are grown without pesticides or synthetic chemicals.
I'm looking forward to your clarification...
Here is what Google came up with:
Search Labs | AI Overview
Learn more
Organic food is food that is grown and processed according to specific guidelines that limit the use of synthetic chemicals and genetically modified components:Soil: The soil must be free of prohibited substances, such as most synthetic fertilizers and pesticides, for three years before harvest.
Animals: Animals must be raised in conditions that meet their natural behaviors, fed 100% organic feed, and not given antibiotics or hormones.
Farming methods: Organic producers use natural substances and physical, mechanical, or biologically based farming methods.
Additives: The use of additives is limited.Genetic engineering: Genetic engineering is avoided.
To be labeled organic, a product must be produced through approved methods by the USDA.
Organic farming has several benefits, including:Environmental benefits: Organic farming is better for the environment than conventional farming.
Nutritional benefits: Organic foods may contain higher levels of certain nutrients, including vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, and omega-3 fatty acids.
Organic 101: What the USDA Organic Label Means
Mar 22, 2012 — USDA certified organic foods are grown and processed according to federal guidelines addressing, among many factors, s...
USDAOrganic food - Better Health Channel
Organic farming is the production of food without the use of synthetic chemicals or genetically modified components. Organic foods...Better Health Channel
Is Organic Food Really Better for You?
Production of USDA-certified organic foods must meet a very specific set of standards, including minimal use of chemicals in pesti...
ycp.eduShow all
Generative AI is experimental.
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For RobertDyck re welcome reminder of your earlier work sizing crops for a 12 person team at Mars....
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 80#p228380
The sizing seems low based upon insolation. To secure the Earth equivalent insolation, you'll need banks of mirrors, as described in other posts. Would it be fair to double or triple the land use to account for those?
Your Earth based comparison necessarily assumes equivalent soil, water supply and drainage. but those would presumably not add to the land requirement.
It seems to me reasonable to plan growing operations here on Earth for delivery to Mars, and that is something a NewMars member might tackle, if there is time and the work is of interest.
In other topics, GW Johnson has published details for landing craft able to meet NASA's target of 40 tons per lander.
The latest iteration uses an adaptation of Void's idea, so that cargo is carried in fold-out pods that also serve as legs to secure a lander from toppling over on uneven terrain. Thus, your greenhouse plan might be divided into four 10 ton segments.
The volume you need for each pod would be useful feedback to GW Johnson, to size the pods with respect to the lander.
For simplicity, I'd like to suggest delivering everything you need to set up a greenhouse in one lander shipment, if possible.
In other words, assume everything except CO2 has to come from Earth.
Machinery to dig trenches or otherwise mold the landscape would be shipped in other landers.
It would be helpful for planners of those shipments to know what you need.
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I could not make the 4 fold-out shipping containers around a single core work. I ended up with 2 shipping containers side-by-side with a shipping container-sized space in between them. I had room to put 3 rocket cores in that space, and did not get hoverable thrust, until I used 3 smaller engines on each core. The shipping containers are the landing pads. It's got the low cg height at touchdown, and would be capable for very rough-field landings on very soft sand dunes.
There has to be a foldable pair of heat shield doors between the two containers, that folds out of the way to let the engines fire, without flipping the vehicle (there isn't time for that, not at a ballistic coefficient near 1000 kg/sq.m, nor is there any time to use chutes). If the transfer stage does the departure and course corrections, then the cargo lander need only make the deceleration burn after the direct aerobraking entry, and finally to touchdown. I used storable propellants, and got a 115 ton item containing some 39 tons of deliverable cargo inside the two shipping containers.
The shipping containers open on one end, right at ground level. Easy to unload either manually, or with the analog to a forklift.
It's 1-way only. Not at all reusable. Although the transfer stage could be.
GW
Last edited by GW Johnson (2024-12-08 17:13:28)
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"
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For RobertDyck re new Large Ship post in Components topic ...
It is good to see you engaged with the Large Ship again, after a breather to catch a second wind.
FYI ... we have resources available in the archive, and certainly online. it turns out that gyroscopes for satellite orientation are NOT set on X, Y and Z exclusively. A fourth wheel is often added as backup. The mathematics of orientation is more complicated, but the result is greater long term reliability.
I took a quick look and we do not have a topic specifically about gyroscope use for space vehicle orientation.
It may be time to add one in the Science Category.
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For RobertDyck re post kbd512 may have missed...
You would already know this, but for our members who are occasional visitors, and for all our non-member readers, the Projects Category is not visible to persons who are not logged in. This is by design (per SpaceNut). The intent is to provide members a bit of privacy while they work on projects. An example is the new book for which GW is collecting content to assemble into a full manuscript. We want to be able to discuss the content with exposure to the NewMars community but not outside that very small group.
If you add something to a project, and kbd512 checks posts while not logged in, then he would not see it.
In that case, you could use the kbd512 Postings topic to reach him directly to let him know of your Projects post.
It takes years to change a culture such as NewMars, so I'm not expecting instantaneous adoption of the structure SpaceNut and I've been working on for five+ years, but little by little there are hints of change.
While I'm here in your personal topic, thanks again for your boost to the Venus topic(s) and to so many others over the years.
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