Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-04 15:38:59

This topic is offered for NewMars members to collect links to reports of work in this specialized field.

This topic is a generic site for posts about the technology described here: Index» Interplanetary transportation» Focused Solar Power Propulsion

While propulsion is the driving motivation for investigating the proposed technology, power generation or manufacturing are other potential use cases.

To my knowledge there does not presently exist a technology to capture photons and direct them to a useful destination that operates on the scale of one of kbd512's gigantic photon powered space vehicles.

To summarize what I understand to be kbd512's idea in words:

Photons will arrive from the Sun traveling perpendicular to a plane filled with light capture devices. These light capture devices would be small versions of existing light capture devices that are used for interior lighting. In the interior lighting application, photons are captured and directed to the flat end of an optical fiber, where they travel along the fiber to an output fixture inside a built structure of some kind. The spectrum of light thus admitted to the built structure matches that of the Sun, except for any losses that may occur as the photons travel through the material.

The unique feature of kbd512's idea (which may not in fact be possible in the Real Universe) is to direct the arriving photons into a fiber cable at an angle instead of flat on, and to combine the incoming traffic at each of the small fixtures into a single stream along an optical fiber running the width of a gigantic plane. The scale involved here is width on the order of 100 meters, and length on the order of a kilometer.

In creating this topic in early 2025, I have three objectives:

First, to establish whether it is possible to flow photons into a fiber optical cable as described above.

Second, if it ** is ** possible from a theoretical point of view, to establish whether humans can devise and actually build equipment to demostrate such a flow.

Third, if all of ** that ** is possible, then to determine how to use the flow of photons that would (presumably) be flowing out of the flat end of the optical fiber at the destination.

There exists a simple diagram to show the concept described above, and i will attempt to post it below.

This is an early version of a drawing using Pinta.

The intent is to show in the simplest possible terms what an optical plane would look like, if such a thing is possible.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-04 15:39:36

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time:

Post #3: RobertDyck https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 00#p228900
Provides concise summary of optical fiber design and application for communications

Laboratory Experiment: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 16#p230416

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-04 18:18:24

This post is intended to contain an interaction with Gemini, Google's enhanced search engine...

Conversation with Gemini
profile picture
Hi Gemini! Thanks for all the assistance you have provided in the past! Today I have what I hope will be a not-too-difficult request. I am trying to help a friend who has an idea for an application of optical fiber. Specifically, he is looking for a way to feed photons into a fiber from the side like feeder lanes into a superhighway. I understand that research into how this might be done has been carried out in the United States, and wonder which institutions might be involved? I'm specifically looking for institutions near Columbus, Ohio, and Houston, Texas.
Near Columbus, Ohio:
The Ohio State University:
Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering: This department has strong research groups in photonics and optoelectronics, including areas like fiber optics, integrated photonics, and laser technology. They may have expertise in novel fiber designs and coupling techniques.
Institute for Optical Science: This interdisciplinary institute brings together researchers from various departments to address fundamental and applied problems in optics and photonics.
Near Houston, Texas:
Rice University:
Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering: Rice has a renowned program in photonics with research focusing on areas like nanophotonics, fiber lasers, and optical communication systems. They may have researchers investigating innovative fiber coupling methods.
University of Houston:
Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering: This department has research groups working on optical communications, fiber sensors, and integrated photonics. They might have relevant expertise in fiber-optic coupling techniques.
Texas A&M University:
Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering: Texas A&M has strong research programs in photonics and optoelectronics, including areas like fiber lasers, nonlinear optics, and optical communication systems.
To further refine your search:
Keywords: Use specific keywords like "side-injection into optical fiber," "fiber optic couplers," "integrated photonics," "photonic integrated circuits" when searching for publications and faculty profiles at these institutions.
Faculty Profiles: Look through the faculty profiles of professors in the departments mentioned above. Check their research interests and publications to see if their work aligns with your friend's idea.
Contact the Departments: Reach out to the departments directly. You could inquire about specific research groups or faculty members who might be working on related projects.
Disclaimer: This information is for general guidance only. For specific research collaborations or inquiries, it's crucial to directly contact the relevant researchers or departments at these institutions.
I hope this information is helpful! Let me know if you have any other questions.
profile picture
Thank you for this helpful information! While I'm away, best wishes for similar success helping all your other customers!
You're very welcome! I appreciate your kind words. I hope your friend finds the information useful and that their application of optical fiber is successful.
Best wishes to you as well!

If any other NewMars members have a major university nearby and would like to find out if that institution is doing research in this specific discipline, please let me know or just ask Gemini and report the results.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2025-01-05 00:55:15

Explain That Stuff: How does fiber optics work?

FiberFin: The Science Behind Optical Fibers

Fiber optics uses the same principles as normal optics, just an interesting application. When two transparent materials have different optical index, light will reflect at their interface if the light angle is shallow enough. For example, glass and air. If the glass is flat, light will be bent when it enters the glass pane, and bends back again when it exits. If the glass pane is flat and smooth with the same angle on both sides (eg a window), the image appears to be offset a little. But if light strikes the glass at a shallow angle, it reflects away. This gives a mirror effect, but only at a shallow angle.

Optical fibre has a couple types. One uses two types of glass. The core has a lower optical index, the sheath has a higher index. When light strikes the surface where the two meet, if that light is a shallow angle, light is reflected back into the core. When the light strikes the surface on the other side of the core, it reflects back again. Light bounces back and forth along the length of the fiber until it reaches the end. Then it shines out.

The second type of fibre has a continuous change in optical index; lowest at the very centre, highest at the outer surface. This bends light toward the centre of the fibre.

There is a cone where light can be accepted by the fibre. If light enters at too sharp an angle, it will shine out the side of the fibre. Different colours add complication. A prism bends different colours differently. Likewise, fibres with continuous change of optical index will bend different colours differently. Red bends more so will have a straighter path through the fibre. Blue bends less so will bounce back and forth more through the fibre. This gives red a shorter path, so for a long fibre red will come out first. Blue last. When transmitting pulses as data, and using different colours to represent different bits, this time delay can create problems.

With fibres that have just two types of glass, and a single optical index for each type of glass, that doesn't happen. With this type of glass, it's just reflection, not refraction. However there's a down side. How tight can you bend the fibre before light doesn't reflect any more? If you bend fibres too tightly, light won't reflect, it will refract through the outer sheath and shine out the side of the fibre. Fibres with continuous change of optical index refracts light, causing light to move into a straighter line down the centre of the core. That allows the fibre to be bent more, but has the aforementioned problem with different colours. So fibres with continuous change of optical index tends to be used with a laser that has only one frequency of light.

If you want an optical plane, you will have to work with the same principles. Just planar instead of 3D. If this is for energy capture, then time delay of different colours is irrelevant.

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-26 20:46:14

Thanks (again) to RobertDyck for Post #4, showing principles of movement of light with respect to optical fiber!

The next action item for this topic is a post to contain a draft of an introduction to academic staff at a university.

It is entirely possible the question of whether photons can be fed into an optical fiber at an angle has already been addressed.

Post #4 by RobertDyck shows the normal way by which photons enter an optical fiber. Our interest is in whether it is possible to merge flow from an angle greater than zero, similar to the flow of automobile traffic onto a thruway.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2025-01-27 16:35:16

Posted a long time ago about concept for lunar oxygen system using concentrated solar carried be fiber optic.
https://www.lpi.usra.edu
Lunar and Planetary Institute
https://www.lpi.usra.edu
PDF
Solar Thermal Power System for Oxygen Production from ...

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-25 07:27:41

Development of an Optical Plane Photon Capture system was on pause while we were waiting for a solution to the problem of flowing photons into a fiber filament from an angle. All optical fiber systems (apparently) feed photons dead on into the end of the fiber.

The work done by kbd512 recently may show a solution that does NOT require a flow from an angle. kbd512 showed that the amount of power that can be transmitted through a fiber filament is limited by the cross section of the filament. What this means is that the fiber bundle has to grow in diameter as power increases.

The solution that appears to present itself is to collect a square centimeter of photons using one of the collection devices kbd512 found in his research, and feed those into a single optical fiber that stretches along the horizontal stretch of the wing to right and left of the central spine.

Update: See collection device here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 96#p228596

The longest run in the base scenario is thus 100 meters. The total number collection points (and thus fiber filaments) is 100*100 >> 10,000.

The fibers can be arranged in a stack below the photon collection devices.

The total area taken up by the collecting devices is 10,000 square centimeters which is a square meter.
If the power delivered by the Sun at the distance of the system is 1000 watts per square meter, then each row will collect 1000 watts.

A panel of one kilometer length would collect 100,000 watts, and if there are two panels they would collect 200,000 watts.

The next stage of this inquiry is to discover how to utilize all those photons at the spine, to propel the space craft.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-01 09:12:14

Here are some images that try to capture the essence of kbd512's idea (as I understand it)...

DALL-E is a program that creates images using text as input.

DALL-E has a difficult time translating text into an image that the requestor has in mind.

In this case, we have three images that capture parts of the vision, but none are completely in the zone.

The last image comes closest...it shows the correct shape, but as a board. The top image is round, because I failed to specify that the vessel is long and rectangular. The middle image is long but oblong.

I suspect that it may be necessary to use drawing tools to create an image that is closer to what the vessel might look like.

It might even be possible to create a hand sketch that would show the gradual increase in depth below the platform, as fiber runs from collection traps to the stern.

As a reminder for scale: The "board" is one kilometer long and 200 meters wide. While the frame is imagined as 1 meter thick, the depth below the top surface will increase from front to back (prow to stern) as fiber accumulates along the way. The longest run of fiber will be 1 kilometer and 100 meters. That single fiber will carry photons collected by a 1 centimeter square collection trap, and the nominal power collected will be one watt. There may be some loss of energy along the way. There are repeaters in undersea fiber cables, but this system will have no need for them.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-01 13:07:49

I asked ChatGPT4o to try to calculate the length of optical fiber that would be needed to carry photons from every point on the top of the rectangle to the bottom center where the propulsion unit would be. The number it came up with is 19,999,000 km.

There are 10000 rows and 20000 columns in the array to be collected. The product of those two is 200,000,000.

The length if each line is less by one centimeter, and the distance at the bottom of the array is 1 centimeter.

Here is an attempt to show how the calculation was done:

Thank you for attempting to show the calculation in BBCode. The result appears to be a mixture of BBCode and LaTex commands. I wonder if the summation process can be rendered in BBCode? If not then please just use the word "summation" to indicate the process.
ChatGPT said:
You're absolutely right! I'll ensure that the explanation is fully in BBCode without LaTeX. Here's the corrected version:
Grid Parameters:
[] Width: 200 meters (20,000 columns)
[] Height: 100 meters (10,000 rows)
[] Tether Point: Bottom center (x = 100 meters, y = 0)
[] Routing: Right-angle path via centerline (x = 100 meters)
Distance Calculation for Each Point:
Each grid point at (x, y) follows this path:
[] Move horizontally to (100, y) → Distance: absolute value of (x - 100) meters
[] Move vertically to (100, 0) → Distance: y meters
Total distance per point: absolute value of (x - 100) + y meters
Summing Over the Entire Grid:
Summing Over x (Horizontal Distances)
The total horizontal distance contribution is computed using summation:
Since the grid is symmetric around the center (x = 100 meters), the sum is calculated for one half and then doubled.
The summation of distances from x = 0 to x = 100 meters gives a result of 10,100 meters per column.
With 10,000 rows, the total horizontal contribution is:
10,100 × 10,000 = 101,000,000 meters = 101,000 km.
Summing Over y (Vertical Distances)
Each column has 10,000 rows, and the summation of y-values from 0 to 100 meters results in 5,050 meters per column.
With 20,000 columns, the total vertical contribution is:
5,050 × 20,000 = 101,000,000 meters = 101,000 km.
Final Total Length:
[] Horizontal contribution: 101,000 km
[] Vertical contribution: 101,000 km
Total required line: 19,999,000 km ?

I made adjustments to the request after studying the presentation above. A new calculation offers 11,010,000 km as the total length of line needed.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-01 13:21:06

In a new calculation, after I made adjustments to the values in play, ChatGPT4o gave this result:

Updated Grid Parameters:
Width: 200 meters (20,000 columns) of one centimeter
Height: 1000 meters (1 km, 100,000 rows) of one centimeter
Tether Point: Bottom center (x = 100 meters, y = 0)
Routing: Right-angle path via centerline (x = 100 meters)
Distance Calculation for Each Point:
Each grid point at (x, y) follows this path:
Move horizontally to (100, y) → Distance: absolute value of (x - 100) meters
Move vertically to (100, 0) → Distance: y meters
Total distance per point: absolute value of (x - 100) + y meters
Summing Over the Entire Grid:
1. **Summing Over x (Horizontal Distances)**
- The total horizontal distance contribution is computed using summation.
- The summation of distances from x = 0 to x = 100 meters gives a result of 10,100 meters per column.
- With 100,000 rows, the total horizontal contribution is:
10,100 × 100,000 = 1,010,000,000 meters = 1,010,000 km.
2. **Summing Over y (Vertical Distances)**
- Each column has 100,000 rows, and the summation of y-values from 0 to 1000 meters results in 500,000 meters per column.
- With 20,000 columns, the total vertical contribution is:
500,000 × 20,000 = 10,000,000,000 meters = 10,000,000 km.
Final Total Length:
Horizontal contribution: 1,010,000 km
Vertical contribution: 10,000,000 km
Total required line: 11,010,000 km ?

This problem could be solved using a variety of computer languages, and it is possible it can also be solved by using mathematics.

This topic is available if we are lucky enough to have a NewMars member with the appropriate skills, and the time to perform the same calculation.

The result is of interest for design of the Optical Plane Deep Space Exploration vessel.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-01 22:22:53

I asked Google for the diameter of a typical optical fiber. Apparently there are a range of diameters in service.

Here is an initial response:

Single mode fiber (SMF) has a tiny core, about 9 micrometers in diameter. This small size forces light to travel in a single path, reducing distortion and allowing for ultra-long-distance transmission. Multimode fiber (MMF) has a larger core, typically 50 to 62.5 micrometers.

In last week's Google Meeting, kbd512 gave us the size of fiber that can carry a power level of one watt.

Update:

In the Google Meeting of 2025/03/02, kbd512 quoted 2 watts per square millimeter for power flow through silicon optical fiber.

I found a resource that offers assurance that a standard communications fiber can handle one watt.

https://www.quora.com/How-much-power-ca … iber-carry

Profile photo for Alan Robinson
Alan Robinson
40 years of optical fibres, fibre transport and photonicsAuthor has 111 answers and 399.7K answer viewsUpdated 5y
“How much power can an optical fiber carry?”: it varies with fibre type.
Single mode fibres used for long-haul telecommunications can easily carry powers of a watt or so.
Higher powers are possible, but the high peak intensity in single mode fibres risks starting a process where the fibre loses some light - for example at a bend in the fibre, or due to dirt at a connector. The energy lost from the small (0.01 mm diameter) core causes the fibre to heat up locally. Hot glass absorbs more light than cold glass, so more energy is lost, and a zone of damage propagates back up the fibre towards the source. This is known as a fibre fuse - the video below shows one in progress.
9
In multimode fibres, the core is much larger - typically at least 0.05 mm or larger diameter, so higher intensities can be carried.
Fibre lasers are available with much higher powers, up to 20 kW in single mode fibre, and 100 kW in multimode fibre. Not my field of expertise, but I believe they use specially designed optical fibres, and almost certainly package the fibre so that tight bends which might dissipate significant power are prevented.
High Power CW Fiber Lasers
As Kjell Lindberg points out, light is a perfectly reasonable means of transferring energy from one place to another. Optical power over fibre even has its own (rather short, but referenced) Wikipedia entry: Power-over-fiber - Wikipedia
The Fraunhofer ISE are rather more optimistic than Kjell regarding power efficiency: Power-by-Light - Fraunhofer ISE
5.8K viewsView upvotes

For the Deep Space vessel application, I am assuming photon traps that collect a watt of solar power, and standard optical fiber to carry the power to the stern of the ship. The power I'm getting is 200 Megawatts. (Corrected 2025/03/19 1 watt per 10 square cm)

That is collected from an array 200 meters wide by 1 kilometer long.

The numbers are:

200 meters wide so 200*100 columns of one centimeters
1000 meters long so 1000*100 rows of one centimeter

200*100*1000*1000 is showing as 2000000000 square centimeters

At one tenth watt per square centimeter, the power collected is 200 Megawatts. (corrected 2025/03/16 to show 10 square cm per watt)

That power is delivered to the stern of the platform by fiber that is no longer than 1100 meters.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-13 19:06:01

In this post, I have opened a dialog with ChatGPT4o, to begin thinking about how all the photons we are collecting will most effectively contribute to the development of thrust, given a supply of liquid hydrogen.

To my knowledge, kbd512's vision has never been attempted on this scale.

Project Summary: Photon-Heated Space Tug Propulsion System
We are exploring an innovative space tug propulsion concept that heats liquid hydrogen using photons as the sole energy source. The design assumes that photons will be collected via specialized optical devices and routed to the propulsion system through optical fibers. Each fiber transmits 1 watt of solar energy over a distance of up to 120 meters. Given an insolation of 1000 W/m², the vessel is planned to be 240 meters square, with a propulsion system along its spine, built from a lightweight 1-meter-thick carbon frame.
The initial propulsion concept is based on a ceramic pipe inspired by nuclear thermal rockets (NTR), which typically heat liquid hydrogen via nuclear fission. However, in this system, we aim to achieve comparable performance using 40 megawatts of solar energy. At this stage, we are evaluating what physical structure might be needed to effectively convert the collected photons into thrust-generating heat.
Key Questions for Further Exploration
[] Photon Collection & Transmission Efficiency: Each fiber carries 1 watt, requiring 40 million fibers to reach 40 MW. What are the assumed optical transmission losses over 120 meters? How will bends, connectors, or thermal effects impact efficiency? Will a secondary collection/focusing system be used at the propulsion end? [] Photon-to-Heat Conversion: How will the photons be converted into heat within the ceramic pipe? Options might include blackbody absorption, photovoltaic-to-resistive heating, or a specialized coating. How will surface area and absorption efficiency be optimized? [] Hydrogen Flow & Heating Dynamics: What pressure and temperature range does the hydrogen need to reach for effective propulsion? Will it be heated directly by radiant energy, or will an intermediary heat exchanger be used? Can the ceramic withstand extreme temperature gradients? [] Thrust Expectations & Performance Metrics: What is the target specific impulse (ISP) for this system? How does it compare to a nuclear thermal rocket (~900s ISP)? Will additional propellant be required for attitude control or mission-specific adjustments? [] Structural & Thermal Management: Given the 1-meter-thick carbon frame, how will thermal expansion and conductivity be managed? Will active cooling be necessary? How will excess heat be controlled to prevent unwanted losses? [] Power Scaling & Modularity: If the system needs to scale beyond 40 MW, how will photon collection, routing, and conversion be adapted? Could a modular approach offer flexibility and redundancy?
We invite discussion and insights from forum members to refine the concept and develop feasible solutions.
This should be ready to post on your forum. Let me know if you'd like any adjustments!

The BBCode was revised in the next post.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-13 19:08:57

Here is a revised version of the summary, using the "list" command.

Project Summary: Photon-Heated Space Tug Propulsion System
We are exploring an innovative space tug propulsion concept that heats liquid hydrogen using photons as the sole energy source. The design assumes that photons will be collected via specialized optical devices and routed to the propulsion system through optical fibers. Each fiber transmits 1 watt of solar energy over a distance of up to 120 meters. Given an insolation of 1000 W/m², the vessel is planned to be 240 meters square, with a propulsion system along its spine, built from a lightweight 1-meter-thick carbon frame.
The initial propulsion concept is based on a ceramic pipe inspired by nuclear thermal rockets (NTR), which typically heat liquid hydrogen via nuclear fission. However, in this system, we aim to achieve comparable performance using 40 megawatts of solar energy. At this stage, we are evaluating what physical structure might be needed to effectively convert the collected photons into thrust-generating heat.
Key Questions for Further Exploration
Photon Collection & Transmission Efficiency:
Each fiber carries 1 watt, requiring 40 million fibers to reach 40 MW.
What are the assumed optical transmission losses over 120 meters?
How will bends, connectors, or thermal effects impact efficiency?
Will a secondary collection/focusing system be used at the propulsion end?
Photon-to-Heat Conversion:
How will the photons be converted into heat within the ceramic pipe?
Options might include blackbody absorption, photovoltaic-to-resistive heating, or a specialized coating.
How will surface area and absorption efficiency be optimized?
Hydrogen Flow & Heating Dynamics:
What pressure and temperature range does the hydrogen need to reach for effective propulsion?
Will it be heated directly by radiant energy, or will an intermediary heat exchanger be used?
Can the ceramic withstand extreme temperature gradients?
Thrust Expectations & Performance Metrics:
What is the target specific impulse (ISP) for this system?
How does it compare to a nuclear thermal rocket (~900s ISP)?
Will additional propellant be required for attitude control or mission-specific adjustments?
Structural & Thermal Management:
Given the 1-meter-thick carbon frame, how will thermal expansion and conductivity be managed?
Will active cooling be necessary?
How will excess heat be controlled to prevent unwanted losses?
Power Scaling & Modularity:
If the system needs to scale beyond 40 MW, how will photon collection, routing, and conversion be adapted?
Could a modular approach offer flexibility and redundancy?
We invite discussion and insights from forum members to refine the concept and develop feasible solutions.
This version should display the questions in a properly indented format on your forum. Let me know if you need further adjustments!

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-15 18:39:52

By Email, GW Johnson informs me he has a possible solution for the problem of admitting light to the hot zone for kbd512's solar powered thruster.

The nature of the interior of the hot zone remains unclear, so I asked ChatGPT4o to take a "look" at it. The result is encouraging, because materials suggested can stay solid at the desired operating temperature of the system (3000 Kelvin).

Your team's approach of using a double-walled quartz window with hydrogen cooling is an elegant solution, leveraging a well-established cooling technique used in chemical rocket combustion chambers. Now, turning to the key question: What material should be used for the innermost pipe to absorb and transfer photon energy efficiently?
Key Considerations for the Absorber Material

The material must:
Efficiently absorb a broad range of photon wavelengths (likely near-IR, visible, and UV if collecting direct solar radiation).
Tolerate extreme temperatures (approaching 3000 K or higher).
Possess high thermal conductivity to transfer heat efficiently to the hydrogen gas.
Resist chemical degradation in a high-temperature hydrogen environment.
Have low thermal expansion to minimize mechanical stress from thermal cycling.
Candidate Materials for the Absorber Pipe

Given these criteria, here are some promising materials:
Tantalum Hafnium Carbide (Ta₄HfC₅)
- Melting Point: ~4200 K (highest known)
- Thermal Conductivity: Moderate (22 W/m·K at 3000 K)
- Advantages: Ultra-high temperature stability, good resistance to hydrogen attack, used in aerospace applications.
- Challenges: Expensive and difficult to manufacture.
Tungsten (W) or Tungsten-Rhenium (W-Re) Alloys
- Melting Point: ~3695 K (pure tungsten)
- Thermal Conductivity: High (~140 W/m·K at 3000 K)
- Advantages: Excellent photon absorption, widely used in high-temperature applications (e.g., nuclear thermal rockets).
- Challenges: Brittle at low temperatures, requires careful design to handle thermal cycling.
Graphite (C) or Pyrolytic Graphite
- Melting Point: Sublimates at ~3900 K
- Thermal Conductivity: Very high (~500 W/m·K in-plane for pyrolytic graphite)
- Advantages: High thermal conductivity for efficient heat transfer, excellent photon absorption, commonly used in high-temperature applications.
- Challenges: Erosion in high-velocity hydrogen flows, may require protective coatings.
Silicon Carbide (SiC)
- Melting Point: ~3100 K
- Thermal Conductivity: ~120 W/m·K at 3000 K
- Advantages: Good resistance to chemical attack, lightweight, high emissivity for radiative heat transfer.
- Challenges: Brittle and less thermally conductive than some metals.
Hafnium Carbide (HfC)
- Melting Point: ~4200 K
- Thermal Conductivity: ~30 W/m·K at 3000 K
- Advantages: Very high-temperature resistance, used in extreme aerospace applications.
- Challenges: Expensive and difficult to manufacture.

Suggested Approach

Primary Candidate: Tungsten (W) or Tungsten-Rhenium (W-Re)
- Excellent photon absorption
- High thermal conductivity
- Proven in nuclear thermal rocket applications
- Potential reinforcement with hafnium carbide or zirconium carbide coatings
Alternative: Graphite or Pyrolytic Graphite
- If protected from erosion, it could provide exceptional heat transfer.
- A possible protective measure: applying a ceramic coating like SiC or HfC.
Additional Considerations:
- Surface Treatment: Using blackbody coatings (such as tungsten oxides) to enhance absorption.
- Microchannel Designs: To maximize heat transfer efficiency between the absorber and hydrogen.

Your double-walled quartz with hydrogen cooling approach already provides thermal protection for the photon entry window, and the absorber pipe can now be optimized to maximize photon absorption and heat transfer to hydrogen.
Would your team be interested in evaluating a hybrid design, such as a tungsten core with a thin, high-emissivity graphite layer? That could provide both structural strength and high absorption efficiency.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-16 06:02:16

This post is added to recall notes on dimensions for the array to produce 40 MW....

In the calculations shown below, the available optical devices are found to be circular in cross section.

Since each device is to collect one watt, the size of the array must be increased to accommodate the diameter plus mounting space.

Updated Solar Collection Plane Dimensions
Objective:
To determine the required dimensions of the solar collection plane that can generate **40 MW** using Total Internal Reflection (TIR) lenses. Each lens captures **1 watt** of solar power at **1000 W/m²**, and we assume a **2 mm separation** between adjacent lenses.
Key Parameters:
Total power required: **40,000,000 W** (40 MW)
Power per TIR device: **1 W**
Diameter of each TIR lens: **36 mm**
Separation between lenses: **2 mm**
Step 1: Calculate the Effective Spacing per Device
The total width occupied by each lens, including separation:
Effective Spacing = 36 mm + 2 mm = 38 mm = 0.038 meters
Step 2: Determine the Total Number of Devices
Since each device collects **1 watt**, the total number of devices required:
Number of Devices = 40,000,000 / 1 = 40,000,000 devices
Step 3: Compute the Side Length of the Collection Plane
Assuming a square grid arrangement:
Side Length = √(40,000,000) × 0.038
Side Length ≈ 240.3 meters
Conclusion:
With **36 mm TIR lenses and 2 mm separation**, the collection plane must be approximately **240.3 meters × 240.3 meters** to generate **40 MW**.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-16 07:24:57

I decided to ask Google's Gemini about the problem we are addressing this evening. Much of the recommendation is similar to that of ChatGPT4o.

Conversation with Gemini
Hi Gemini! Thank you for your help with previous questions. Today's question may be interesting! In preparation for a meeting of a small group this evening, I am looking for help understanding how photons of light from the Sun cause a material to increase in thermal energy. The team will be attempting to select a material to heat gas using solar energy as the only input. We know that we want to avoid reflective surfaces, so a black surface is desirable. My question is about activity going on at the quantum level. When a photon arrives at the surface of a material, I assume it first encounters the outermost electron shell. I'm wondering how various materials respond to the arrival of a photon, and why some materials do a better job of absorbing the energy of the photon and translating that into thermal activity.
Hello! This is indeed a fascinating question, and it's great that you're diving into the quantum level to understand the process of solar energy absorption and thermalization. Let's break down how photons interact with materials and how that leads to heating.
Photon-Material Interactions: A Quantum Perspective
When a photon from the Sun arrives at a material's surface, it interacts with the electrons within the material. The outcome of this interaction depends on the photon's energy and the electronic structure of the material. Here's a breakdown:
Photon Energy and Electron Excitation:
Photons carry energy proportional to their frequency (E=hν, where E is energy, h is Planck's constant, and ν is frequency).
Electrons in materials occupy specific energy levels. When a photon's energy matches the energy difference between two electron levels, the electron can absorb the photon and jump to a higher energy level. This is called excitation.
If the photon energy doesn't match any energy level difference, the photon is likely to be transmitted or reflected.
Material Properties and Absorption:
Metals: Metals have a "sea" of delocalized electrons. These electrons can absorb photons over a wide range of energies, leading to strong absorption. However, they also re-emit photons readily, which is why metals can be shiny.
Semiconductors: Semiconductors have a band gap, which is an energy range where no electron levels exist. Photons with energy greater than the band gap can excite electrons from the valence band to the conduction band. The excited electrons and the "holes" they leave behind can then interact with the lattice, transferring energy as heat.
Insulators: Insulators have a large band gap. Photons with energy less than the band gap pass through, and those with energy greater than the band gap can cause excitation, but often this energy is dissipated in ways that do not generate heat.
Black Materials: Black materials, like those you're interested in, are designed to absorb photons across a broad range of the solar spectrum. This typically involves:
Materials with many closely spaced energy levels, allowing for absorption of photons with various energies.
Materials with defects or impurities that create additional energy levels, enhancing absorption.
Surface texturing, which increases the number of times light is reflected and absorbed by the material.
Thermalization: From Photon Energy to Heat:
After an electron is excited, it doesn't stay in the higher energy level forever. It will eventually return to its ground state, releasing the absorbed energy.
This energy can be released in several ways:
Radiative Decay: The electron emits a photon, which can escape the material (leading to luminescence or reflection).
Non-Radiative Decay: The electron transfers its energy to the material's lattice (the arrangement of atoms) through vibrations. These vibrations are phonons, which are quantized lattice vibrations.
Phonons and Heat: Phonons are the microscopic carriers of thermal energy. As the lattice vibrates more intensely, the material's temperature increases. This is how photon energy is converted into heat.
Why Some Materials Are Better Absorbers and Thermalizers:
Broadband Absorption: Materials that can absorb a wide range of solar wavelengths (especially in the visible and near-infrared regions) will capture more of the Sun's energy.
Efficient Phonon Generation: Materials that efficiently convert electronic excitation energy into phonons will generate more heat. This is influenced by the material's crystal structure, atomic mass, and interatomic forces.
Low Radiative Losses: Materials that minimize radiative decay (photon re-emission) will retain more energy as heat. This is why black materials are preferred; they absorb and minimize reflection.
High Phonon Density of States: Materials that have a high density of available phonon modes, allow for greater thermal energy storage.
Practical Considerations for Your Project:
Carbon-based materials: such as carbon nanotubes, graphene, or even just a flat black carbon coating, are excellent absorbers.
Selective coatings: These are engineered coatings designed to absorb strongly in the solar spectrum but emit weakly in the infrared, minimizing radiative heat loss.
Surface texturing: Roughening the surface of the material increases the number of times photons are absorbed, enhancing overall absorption.
I hope this explanation helps your team select the best material for your solar heating project!
Thank you for this helpful overview of the subject. May I add a bit more detail to the problem we are addressing? I'm hoping you may have specific suggestions for materials to be considered.
Of course! Please provide the additional details. I'm ready to help you narrow down the material selection with more specifics. To give you the best recommendations, please tell me about:
Operating Temperature: What temperature range are you aiming to achieve for the gas?
Gas Type: What type of gas are you heating (e.g., air, nitrogen, helium, etc.)?
System Design: How is the gas being heated? Is it a closed system, a flow-through system, or something else?
Size and Weight Constraints: Are there any limitations on the size or weight of the heating element?
Environmental Conditions: Will the material be exposed to any harsh environmental conditions (e.g., humidity, corrosive gases, extreme temperatures)?
Cost Considerations: Are there any budget constraints for the material selection?
Longevity Requirements: How long should the material last under operating conditions?
Specifics about the light source: Though you stated sunlight, are there any lenses or mirrors that might be concentrating the light?
With these details, I can provide more targeted suggestions for materials that will optimize your solar gas heating system.
The object is to reach 3000 Kelvin, but we understand that may not be possible.
The gas we intend to use is hydrogen, which will be stored in liquid form.
The gas is to be heated using solar photons delivered to the heating chamber through quartz ports. The quartz ports are to be cooled by the hydrogen on it's way to the heating chamber
We are currently planning a system size of 240 meters square. The heating chamber would be between two planes designed to capture solar energy. The application is a propulsion system, so the heating chamber materials must be strong enough to survive for extended periods while subjected to arriving solar energy and hydrogen gas to be heated.
Okay, this is a very challenging and exciting project! Reaching 3000 K with hydrogen using solar energy for a propulsion system has some extreme material requirements. Let's break down the challenges and explore potential material solutions:
Challenges:
Extremely High Temperature: 3000 K is a very high temperature, pushing the limits of even the most refractory materials.
Hydrogen Embrittlement: Hydrogen, especially at high temperatures, can diffuse into materials and cause embrittlement, leading to premature failure.
High Solar Flux: The concentrated solar energy will impose a significant thermal load on the materials.
Thermal Shock: Rapid changes in solar flux can cause thermal shock, potentially leading to cracking or failure.
Oxidation (if any oxygen is present): Even trace amounts of oxygen can cause rapid oxidation at these temperatures.
Edit: Oxygen will not be present, since the system will be operating in a vacuum.
Material Strength at High Temperature: Most materials lose significant strength at high temperatures.
Material stability in the presence of high energy photons: The materials will be bombarded with photons of various energies, and must not degrade under this bombardment.
Potential Material Solutions:
Given these extreme conditions, the material selection will be limited to ultra-high-temperature ceramics and refractory metals. Here are some possibilities:
Refractory Metals:
Tungsten (W):
Pros: Extremely high melting point (3695 K), high strength at elevated temperatures, relatively good thermal conductivity.
Cons: Susceptible to oxidation, can suffer from hydrogen embrittlement, high density.
Tantalum (Ta):
Pros: High melting point (3290 K), good corrosion resistance.
Cons: Susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement, lower strength than tungsten at high temperatures.
Rhenium (Re):
Pros: Very high melting point (3459K), extremely strong.
Cons: Very expensive, difficult to machine, and also suffers from hydrogen embrittlement.
Molybdenum (Mo):
Pros: High melting point, relatively good high temperature strength.
Cons: Very susceptible to oxidation, and Hydrogen embrittlement.
Refractory metal alloys: Alloys of the previously mentioned metals, may be possible to create, that optimize certain attributes, while minimizing others.
Ultra-High-Temperature Ceramics (UHTCs):
Hafnium Carbide (HfC) and Zirconium Carbide (ZrC):
Pros: Extremely high melting points (above 4000 K), high hardness, good chemical stability.
Cons: Brittle, susceptible to thermal shock, difficult to fabricate in large sizes.
Tantalum Carbide (TaC):
Pro's: extremely hard, very high melting point.
Con's: difficult to fabricate, and thermal shock issues.
Carbon-Carbon Composites:
Pro's: very high temperature stability, relatively light weight.
Con's: susceptable to oxidation, and Hydrogen interaction. If they are treated to resist these, they may be a good choice.
Key Considerations:
Coatings: Applying protective coatings to refractory metals or ceramics is essential to prevent oxidation and hydrogen embrittlement. Potential coatings include:
UHTCs
Rare-earth oxides
Fabrication: Fabricating large, complex shapes from UHTCs or refractory metals is challenging. Advanced manufacturing techniques, such as additive manufacturing (3D printing), may be necessary.
Testing: Thorough testing under simulated operating conditions is crucial to assess the material's performance and lifetime.
Heat shielding: Due to the extreme temperatures, effective heat shielding will be vital to protect the supporting structure, and the quartz ports.
Recommendations:
Given the extreme temperature and hydrogen environment, tungsten with a protective coating is a strong contender.
Carbon-carbon composites that have been very carefully treated to resist oxidization, and hydrogen intrusion, are also likely the best possible path.
UHTCs are promising, but their brittleness and fabrication challenges may be limiting factors.
It is strongly recomended that extensive research and testing of any candidate material be completed, before a final decision is made.
Observing hydrogen's effects in metal | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Source icon
news.mit.edu
Thermal Shock: How to Avoid Sudden Temperature Changes - NUTEC
Source icon
nutec.com
Mechanical Properties and Thermal Shock Performance of High-Energy-Rate-Forged W-1%TaC Alloy - MDPI
Source icon
www.mdpi.com
Ultra-high temperature ceramic - Wikipedia
Source icon
en.wikipedia.org
Thank you for your careful consideration of the problem we are addressing, and for links to additional resources. While I am away, best wishes for similar success as you attempt to help your many other customers!
You're very welcome! I'm glad I could provide some helpful insights. Best of luck to you and your team with your ambitious project. Reaching 3000 K with hydrogen using solar energy is a truly cutting-edge endeavor. If you have any further questions or need additional assistance in the future, don't hesitate to reach out. Have a great day!

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tahanson43206 · 2025-03-16 10:27:24

This post is to hold two drawings prepared by GW Johnson for this evening's Google Meeting;

Above shows details for a fiber optical cable system

Below shows a traditional balloon configuration.

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tahanson43206 · 2025-03-18 09:19:15

This topic is changing focus from the collection of photons, to their use to propel a space vessel.

The imagined configuration for a 40 MW system (at this point) is a square that is 240 meters on a side and 1 meter thick.

The photon collection system consists of two wings either side of a central keel. Each wing row is 38 millimeters wide and 120 meters long.

3158 circular photon traps can be arranged in a single wing row, for a total of 6316 traps across the entire stretch.

If each trap collects 1 watt of energy and that watt is delivered to the center of the vessel, there would be 6316 watts available.

Total power delivered in this scenario is 39,891,856, which is just shy of the design goal of 40 MW.

Increasing the array size to 242 meters square would yield 40,551,424 watts. The 40 MW is an arbitrary goal in any case.

The question to be considered in this phase of the study, is how that 6316 watts might be enlisted to heat hydrogen gas to 3000 Kelvin.

3000 Kelvin is the temperature of output from a NERVA rocket, delivering 800 ISP.

6,316 watts doesn't seem like a lot to me, but it is applied to the heating device in 38 millimeters, and there are 6,316 rows along the length of the heating pipe.

In the post above (#17) GW Johnson has shown a possible configuration of a system that might be able to heat hydrogen by convection.

Update: GW Johnson also suggested that LH2 supply tanks might be co-located with the heating system. A keel running under the heating pipe might provide strength the vessel needs to deal with forces in play, as well as volume for supplies and equipment.

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tahanson43206 · 2025-03-18 20:09:17

This post is about laboratory testing of the Optical Plane Space Propulsion system concept....

6,316 watts doesn't seem like a lot to me, but it is applied to the heating device in 38 millimeters, and there are 6,316 rows along the length of the heating pipe.

The wattage given above is what might be expected from one row of the 40 MW imaginary space vessel of this topic.

6,316 watts can be achieved on Earth, in a laboratory setting.

The physical dimensions through which this wattage would be projected is 38 millimeters, which can be achieved on Earth in a laboratory setting.

GW Johnson has suggested that the 6,316 watts might be fed into a heating chamber from more than one direction. I was thinking of two directions, but more are certainly possible. The advantage of two is that one would be fed directly by the port wing, and the other fed directly by the starboard wind.

A laboratory experiment can be imagined that is able to replicate the input of 6,316 watts of simulated solar energy from two directions onto a heating system intended to deliver thermal energy to gas flowing by the device.

It should be possible to measure the temperature and pressure of the gas before it passes the heating device, and after it passes the heating device.

The purpose of the exercise is to see what one row of simulated sunlight can achieve.

The full size vessel would have 6,316 stages through which gas would pass on it's way to the exit port.

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tahanson43206 · 2025-03-19 11:54:45

This post is about design of an experimental laboratory apparatus to test materials for the optical heating application.

You said:
This project is advancing slowly but apparently surely. Thank you again for your assistance in earlier sessions. We seem to have nailed the photon collection system and are now concentrating on the propulsion system. As we have discussed, this is a heating system that will accept solar photons as input and deliver energetic hydrogen gas. Today's session is to consider a laboratory experiment we might be able to perform on Earth to simulate the operation of the proposed propulsion system, and to measure the actual performance. My hope is that we may be able to enlist your support as we try to think through what the experiment would require for equipment, and what procedures we might employ to collect data. Would you like to proceed? I have specific data to help us get started.
ChatGPT said:
That sounds like an excellent direction! A laboratory experiment to simulate and measure the performance of your propulsion system would provide valuable validation before moving toward larger-scale implementation.
I’d be happy to help think through the necessary equipment, experimental procedures, and data collection methods. Please share your specific data, and we’ll start outlining a practical approach.

You said:
We have arrived at solar power of 6316 watts divided into two inputs of 3158 watts. In the scenario we are considering, the two 3158 watt inputs would be generated by a lighting device able to simulate the spectrum of the Sun. Complete accuracy is not a requirement. This energy is to be delivered in a band 38 millimeters high. The material to be tested for thermal performance is placed in a chamber between the two optical feeds. We are imagining that the gas to be heated is flowing in a circle that intersects the heating chamber. The gas would be propelled by a mechanical device (a fan or turbine) located at the bottom of the loop, assuming that the heating chamber is at the top of the apparatus. If we design the apparatus correctly, we should be able to test a variety of materials for the heating function, as well as shapes of fins and degrees of roughness. The apparatus would include sensors to measure pressure of the gas, as well as temperature before the heating chamber and after. It is presumed that the optical input would pass through quartz devices that are to be cooled by flowing liquid, so sensors to measure the temperature of the quartz devices would be needed. Please summarize the experiment as you understand it, using the BBCode you have shown with success. Please remember to use the "list" command and the colors, red, blue and darkgreen.
ChatGPT said:
Here is a structured summary of your proposed laboratory experiment using BBCode for clarity and emphasis:
Proposed Laboratory Experiment: Simulating Photon-Based Propulsion Heating System
Objective:
To evaluate the thermal performance of various materials and surface geometries for heating hydrogen gas using a simulated solar input of 6316 watts, divided into two 3158-watt optical sources.
Experimental Setup:
Optical Energy Input:
Two 3158-watt light sources simulating the Sun’s spectrum.
Energy delivered in a 38 mm high band.
Light passes through quartz windows, which are liquid-cooled.
Heating Chamber & Gas Flow:
The test material is placed in the heating chamber between the two optical feeds.
Hydrogen gas circulates in a closed loop, passing through the heating chamber at the top.
A fan or turbine at the bottom drives the gas through the loop.
Testing Variables:
Different test materials for the heating chamber.
Various surface geometries, including fin structures and roughness levels.
Sensors & Data Collection:
Temperature sensors before and after the heating chamber.
Pressure sensors at key points in the gas loop.
Cooling liquid temperature sensors to monitor heat transfer in quartz windows.
Expected Measurements & Analysis:
Temperature rise of hydrogen gas after passing through the heating chamber.
Efficiency of different test materials in converting optical energy into thermal energy.
Impact of fin designs and surface roughness on heat transfer effectiveness.
Quartz temperature stability and heat dissipation performance.
Expected Outcomes:
Identification of the most efficient material and surface geometry for heating hydrogen gas.
Evaluation of thermal losses and optimization of cooling mechanisms.
Verification of optical power absorption efficiency within the heating chamber.

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tahanson43206 · 2025-03-19 12:01:15

In this post ChatGPT4o and I attempt to evaluate the proposed experimental apparatus.

Evaluation of the Proposed Laboratory Experiment
Objective of the Experiment:
The goal of this experiment is to evaluate the efficiency of using solar photons to heat hydrogen gas within a controlled system. Specifically, the experiment aims to:
Determine Material Efficiency:
Identify which materials best absorb and transfer heat to hydrogen gas.
Assess different surface geometries (fins, roughness levels) for optimal heat transfer.
Measure Thermal Performance:
Quantify the temperature increase of hydrogen gas after passing through the heating chamber.
Compare different material compositions and structural designs to maximize heat exchange.
Validate Optical Heating Feasibility:
Ensure that the simulated solar input effectively delivers energy to the heating chamber.
Verify whether quartz windows effectively transmit optical power while being adequately cooled.
Assess System Efficiency:
Monitor energy losses through pressure changes, thermal leakage, and cooling system heat dissipation.
Determine how efficiently the photon energy converts into hydrogen thermal energy.
Provide Scalable Data for Propulsion Design:
Establish a data-driven foundation for the propulsion system design by simulating conditions similar to the deep-space system.
Identify the best material and geometric configurations for heating hydrogen gas.
Strengths of the Proposed Setup:
Realistic Optical Energy Delivery:
The 6316 watts of simulated solar power is sufficient for meaningful heating effects.
Using two focused beams ensures controlled energy input in a 38 mm high band, simulating the intended propulsion system.
Test Material Versatility:
The modular heating chamber allows testing of multiple materials and designs.
Fin designs, coatings, and roughness variations can be systematically evaluated.
Comprehensive Sensor Array:
Temperature sensors will allow accurate measurement of gas heating performance.
Pressure sensors will help assess gas flow efficiency and potential fluid dynamic losses.
Cooling sensors will ensure quartz window stability and prevent heat accumulation.
Realistic Gas Flow Simulation:
The closed-loop gas circulation system simulates the actual propulsion environment.
A mechanical driver (fan or turbine) at the bottom ensures steady gas movement.
Potential Limitations & Areas for Improvement:
Thermal Leakage & Energy Losses:
The test chamber must be well-insulated to minimize external energy losses.
The cooling system for quartz windows must not excessively remove useful energy.
Gas Flow Dynamics:
Ensuring laminar vs. turbulent flow control is critical to getting consistent heating results.
The flow rate of hydrogen must be precisely adjustable to test different operating conditions.
Hydrogen Containment & Safety:
Hydrogen is highly flammable, so safety protocols for leaks, venting, and containment are crucial.
Alternative test gases (like nitrogen or helium) could be used for preliminary trials.
Measurement Resolution & Accuracy:
Sensors need to have high precision to capture small variations in temperature and pressure.
Multiple thermocouple placements may be needed to ensure accurate readings throughout the chamber.
Overall Evaluation:
✅ The proposed experiment is well-structured and should meet its objectives with some refinements.
✅ It effectively tests how well solar photons heat hydrogen gas, evaluates different materials and geometries, and collects performance data for propulsion design.
? Recommended Next Steps:
[] Refine thermal insulation & gas flow design to minimize losses.
[] Define sensor specifications for high-resolution temperature and pressure measurements.
[] Develop a safety plan for handling hydrogen, or consider an alternative gas for early testing.
[] Determine a baseline gas flow rate to optimize heating efficiency.
Let me know if you’d like any refinements! ?

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tahanson43206 · 2025-03-19 12:07:57

This post is about selection of computer equipment for experiment control and data acquisition:

Recommended Computer Equipment & Data Acquisition System for the Experiment
Objective:
To select a cost-effective yet reliable computing and data acquisition setup for controlling the experiment, logging sensor data, and analyzing thermal performance.
1️⃣ Primary Control & Data Logging System
Option 1: Raspberry Pi 4 (8GB RAM) (~$75-$100)
Low-cost, reliable, and sufficient for running sensors & logging data.
Can interface with temperature, pressure, and flow sensors via GPIO & I2C/SPI.
Runs Python-based control software (e.g., pandas and matplotlib for live graphs).
Option 2: Budget Laptop or Mini PC (~$300-$500)
If a graphical interface is needed for real-time visualization.
Runs Ubuntu Linux or Windows for flexibility.
More processing power for real-time analysis and plotting.
✅ Best choice: Raspberry Pi for basic control + Mini PC for detailed analysis.
2️⃣ Sensor Interface & Data Acquisition (DAQ) System
Option 1: Arduino + Sensors (~$50-$150)
Arduino reads sensor values and transmits data to Raspberry Pi or PC via USB/Serial.
Can handle multiple analog & digital sensors efficiently.
Option 2: USB Data Acquisition Device (DAQ, e.g., NI USB-6001) (~$500)
Higher precision than Arduino.
Good for industrial-grade temperature & pressure sensors (e.g., thermocouples).
✅ Best choice: Arduino + industrial sensors to balance cost and accuracy.
3️⃣ Sensors & Measurement Devices
Temperature Sensors: K-type Thermocouples (~$20 per sensor)
Wide temp range (−200°C to 1372°C).
Connects via thermocouple amplifier module (e.g., MAX31855).
Pressure Sensors (~$50-$200 each)
Choose based on expected gas pressure range.
Digital output preferred for accurate readings.
Flow Sensors (Mass Flow Meters) (~$300+)
Monitors hydrogen or alternative gas circulation rate.
Needed for efficiency calculations.
✅ Best choice:
K-type thermocouples for temperature.
Mid-range pressure sensors with digital output.
Flow sensors, if budget allows.
4️⃣ Software & Data Handling
[] Programming: Python (with matplotlib, pandas, pyserial for data logging).
[] Live Visualization: Jupyter Notebook or Matplotlib for real-time graphs.
Database (Optional): SQLite or MySQL for structured storage.
✅ Best choice: Python + Matplotlib for real-time plotting + CSV logging.
Budget-Friendly Summary
Component Recommended Option Estimated Cost
Control System Raspberry Pi 4 (8GB) $100
Data Logging & Display Budget Laptop/Mini PC $300-$500
Sensor Interface Arduino + Sensor Modules $50-$150
Temperature Sensors K-type Thermocouples $20 each
Pressure Sensors Mid-range digital sensors $50-$200
Flow Sensors (if needed) Mass Flow Meters $300+
Software & Storage Python, CSV Logging Free
✅ Total Estimated Budget: $500 - $1000, scalable based on precision & features.
Next Steps:
[] Confirm required sensor precision for temperature, pressure, and flow rates.
[] Decide on a real-time display system (e.g., Raspberry Pi, Mini PC, or a combination).
[] Select a gas flow control system that ensures stable and adjustable hydrogen movement.
[] Finalize a data storage approach (CSV, database, or real-time cloud logging).
Conclusion:
This setup balances cost and performance, providing accurate data logging and analysis without unnecessary expenses. By using Raspberry Pi and Arduino, the system remains modular and upgradable.
? Would you like any refinements or additional recommendations? ?
This should be clear and engaging for your forum audience! Let me know if you'd like any changes. ?

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tahanson43206 · 2025-03-19 17:25:09

This post is reserved for an image created by GW Johnson to show the 240 meter long heat pipe for the vessel in focus for this topic.

That vessel has a design goal of 40 MW of power, which led to it's physical dimensions of 240 meters by 240 meters.

GW's drawing shows a cross section of the heat pipe as seen from the side.

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kbd512 · 2025-03-19 20:56:02

tahanson43206,

After reading through, I'm genuinely impressed by how much work ChatGPT has enabled you to undertake on this idea I had. Whatever improvements were made between the answers it provided regarding transporting of shelf-stable chemicals to be converted into rocket fuel, on-orbit, and this work on photonic propulsion, I approve.

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-22 17:33:03

For kbd512 re #24

Thank you for reviewing the work ChatGPT4o and I have been doing in support of the Thermal version of the deep space vessel.

In this post, I have asked ChatGPT4o to "think" about a hybrid system that would combine the thermal process we are studying, with an electrical process to accelerate ions of Hydrogen (ie, Protons, or Protons with one Neutron if Deuterium).

Hybrid Propulsion System Report
Introduction
The purpose of this report is to outline a hybrid propulsion system that combines photovoltaic energy conversion with thermal propulsion, using only hydrogen as the propellant. The objective is to evaluate the feasibility of dividing the incoming 40 MW of optical power into electrical and thermal processes to enhance overall efficiency and performance.
System Overview
Total Optical Power Input: 40 MW
Photovoltaic Conversion: Targeting 50% efficiency, converting approximately 20 MW to electrical energy.
Thermal Conversion: The remaining 20 MW is applied to thermal propulsion, reducing the thermal load from previous designs.
Hydrogen Usage: Consuming 2 kg/s of hydrogen, divided between cooling, thermal propulsion, and ionization.
Ion Propulsion Objective: Create a stream of protons (H⁺) for ion propulsion by thermally processing hydrogen.
Design Benefits
Improved Efficiency: Electrical power is generated without extreme temperatures, relieving stress on materials.
Dual-Mode Propulsion: Electrical power drives ion thrusters, while heat drives thermal propulsion.
Scalability & Flexibility: Allows dynamic adjustment between electrical and thermal systems.
Technical Challenges
Cooling System Design: Hydrogen cooling must be efficient to prevent damage to photovoltaic devices.
Ionization Efficiency: Effective conversion of hydrogen to protons for ion acceleration.
Thermal Integration: Waste heat from PV cells must be redirected effectively to the thermal propulsion system.
Next Steps
Calculate thrust and specific impulse for both ion propulsion and thermal propulsion systems.
Develop a strategy for thermal management and hydrogen flow control.
Evaluate overall efficiency and performance of the hybrid system.
Conclusion
This hybrid approach offers a promising pathway for space propulsion using hydrogen exclusively. By integrating photovoltaic and thermal systems, it may be possible to achieve superior efficiency and performance. Calculations and further analysis will be necessary to validate this concept.

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New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2025-01-04 15:38:59

Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#2 2025-01-04 15:39:36

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#3 2025-01-04 18:18:24

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#4 2025-01-05 00:55:15

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#5 2025-01-26 20:46:14

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#6 2025-01-27 16:35:16

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#7 2025-02-25 07:27:41

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#8 2025-03-01 09:12:14

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#9 2025-03-01 13:07:49

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#10 2025-03-01 13:21:06

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#11 2025-03-01 22:22:53

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#12 2025-03-13 19:06:01

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#13 2025-03-13 19:08:57

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#14 2025-03-15 18:39:52

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

Key Considerations for the Absorber Material

Candidate Materials for the Absorber Pipe

Suggested Approach

#15 2025-03-16 06:02:16

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

Updated Solar Collection Plane Dimensions

#16 2025-03-16 07:24:57

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#17 2025-03-16 10:27:24

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#18 2025-03-18 09:19:15

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#19 2025-03-18 20:09:17

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#20 2025-03-19 11:54:45

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

Proposed Laboratory Experiment: Simulating Photon-Based Propulsion Heating System

#21 2025-03-19 12:01:15

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

Evaluation of the Proposed Laboratory Experiment

#22 2025-03-19 12:07:57

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

Recommended Computer Equipment & Data Acquisition System for the Experiment

#23 2025-03-19 17:25:09

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#24 2025-03-19 20:56:02

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#25 2025-03-22 17:33:03

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

Hybrid Propulsion System Report

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