Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-04 15:38:59

This topic is offered for NewMars members to collect links to reports of work in this specialized field.

This topic is a generic site for posts about the technology described here: Index» Interplanetary transportation» Focused Solar Power Propulsion

While propulsion is the driving motivation for investigating the proposed technology, power generation or manufacturing are other potential use cases.

To my knowledge there does not presently exist a technology to capture photons and direct them to a useful destination that operates on the scale of one of kbd512's gigantic photon powered space vehicles.

To summarize what I understand to be kbd512's idea in words:

Photons will arrive from the Sun traveling perpendicular to a plane filled with light capture devices. These light capture devices would be small versions of existing light capture devices that are used for interior lighting. In the interior lighting application, photons are captured and directed to the flat end of an optical fiber, where they travel along the fiber to an output fixture inside a built structure of some kind. The spectrum of light thus admitted to the built structure matches that of the Sun, except for any losses that may occur as the photons travel through the material.

The unique feature of kbd512's idea (which may not in fact be possible in the Real Universe) is to direct the arriving photons into a fiber cable at an angle instead of flat on, and to combine the incoming traffic at each of the small fixtures into a single stream along an optical fiber running the width of a gigantic plane. The scale involved here is width on the order of 100 meters, and length on the order of a kilometer.

In creating this topic in early 2025, I have three objectives:

First, to establish whether it is possible to flow photons into a fiber optical cable as described above.

Second, if it ** is ** possible from a theoretical point of view, to establish whether humans can devise and actually build equipment to demostrate such a flow.

Third, if all of ** that ** is possible, then to determine how to use the flow of photons that would (presumably) be flowing out of the flat end of the optical fiber at the destination.

There exists a simple diagram to show the concept described above, and i will attempt to post it below.

This is an early version of a drawing using Pinta.

The intent is to show in the simplest possible terms what an optical plane would look like, if such a thing is possible.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-04 15:39:36

This post is reserved for an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time:

Post #3: RobertDyck https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 00#p228900
Provides concise summary of optical fiber design and application for communications

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-04 18:18:24

This post is intended to contain an interaction with Gemini, Google's enhanced search engine...

Conversation with Gemini
profile picture
Hi Gemini! Thanks for all the assistance you have provided in the past! Today I have what I hope will be a not-too-difficult request. I am trying to help a friend who has an idea for an application of optical fiber. Specifically, he is looking for a way to feed photons into a fiber from the side like feeder lanes into a superhighway. I understand that research into how this might be done has been carried out in the United States, and wonder which institutions might be involved? I'm specifically looking for institutions near Columbus, Ohio, and Houston, Texas.
Near Columbus, Ohio:
The Ohio State University:
Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering: This department has strong research groups in photonics and optoelectronics, including areas like fiber optics, integrated photonics, and laser technology. They may have expertise in novel fiber designs and coupling techniques.
Institute for Optical Science: This interdisciplinary institute brings together researchers from various departments to address fundamental and applied problems in optics and photonics.
Near Houston, Texas:
Rice University:
Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering: Rice has a renowned program in photonics with research focusing on areas like nanophotonics, fiber lasers, and optical communication systems. They may have researchers investigating innovative fiber coupling methods.
University of Houston:
Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering: This department has research groups working on optical communications, fiber sensors, and integrated photonics. They might have relevant expertise in fiber-optic coupling techniques.
Texas A&M University:
Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering: Texas A&M has strong research programs in photonics and optoelectronics, including areas like fiber lasers, nonlinear optics, and optical communication systems.
To further refine your search:
Keywords: Use specific keywords like "side-injection into optical fiber," "fiber optic couplers," "integrated photonics," "photonic integrated circuits" when searching for publications and faculty profiles at these institutions.
Faculty Profiles: Look through the faculty profiles of professors in the departments mentioned above. Check their research interests and publications to see if their work aligns with your friend's idea.
Contact the Departments: Reach out to the departments directly. You could inquire about specific research groups or faculty members who might be working on related projects.
Disclaimer: This information is for general guidance only. For specific research collaborations or inquiries, it's crucial to directly contact the relevant researchers or departments at these institutions.
I hope this information is helpful! Let me know if you have any other questions.
profile picture
Thank you for this helpful information! While I'm away, best wishes for similar success helping all your other customers!
You're very welcome! I appreciate your kind words. I hope your friend finds the information useful and that their application of optical fiber is successful.
Best wishes to you as well!

If any other NewMars members have a major university nearby and would like to find out if that institution is doing research in this specific discipline, please let me know or just ask Gemini and report the results.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2025-01-05 00:55:15

Explain That Stuff: How does fiber optics work?

FiberFin: The Science Behind Optical Fibers

Fiber optics uses the same principles as normal optics, just an interesting application. When two transparent materials have different optical index, light will reflect at their interface if the light angle is shallow enough. For example, glass and air. If the glass is flat, light will be bent when it enters the glass pane, and bends back again when it exits. If the glass pane is flat and smooth with the same angle on both sides (eg a window), the image appears to be offset a little. But if light strikes the glass at a shallow angle, it reflects away. This gives a mirror effect, but only at a shallow angle.

Optical fibre has a couple types. One uses two types of glass. The core has a lower optical index, the sheath has a higher index. When light strikes the surface where the two meet, if that light is a shallow angle, light is reflected back into the core. When the light strikes the surface on the other side of the core, it reflects back again. Light bounces back and forth along the length of the fiber until it reaches the end. Then it shines out.

The second type of fibre has a continuous change in optical index; lowest at the very centre, highest at the outer surface. This bends light toward the centre of the fibre.

There is a cone where light can be accepted by the fibre. If light enters at too sharp an angle, it will shine out the side of the fibre. Different colours add complication. A prism bends different colours differently. Likewise, fibres with continuous change of optical index will bend different colours differently. Red bends more so will have a straighter path through the fibre. Blue bends less so will bounce back and forth more through the fibre. This gives red a shorter path, so for a long fibre red will come out first. Blue last. When transmitting pulses as data, and using different colours to represent different bits, this time delay can create problems.

With fibres that have just two types of glass, and a single optical index for each type of glass, that doesn't happen. With this type of glass, it's just reflection, not refraction. However there's a down side. How tight can you bend the fibre before light doesn't reflect any more? If you bend fibres too tightly, light won't reflect, it will refract through the outer sheath and shine out the side of the fibre. Fibres with continuous change of optical index refracts light, causing light to move into a straighter line down the centre of the core. That allows the fibre to be bent more, but has the aforementioned problem with different colours. So fibres with continuous change of optical index tends to be used with a laser that has only one frequency of light.

If you want an optical plane, you will have to work with the same principles. Just planar instead of 3D. If this is for energy capture, then time delay of different colours is irrelevant.

tahanson43206 · 2025-01-26 20:46:14

Thanks (again) to RobertDyck for Post #4, showing principles of movement of light with respect to optical fiber!

The next action item for this topic is a post to contain a draft of an introduction to academic staff at a university.

It is entirely possible the question of whether photons can be fed into an optical fiber at an angle has already been addressed.

Post #4 by RobertDyck shows the normal way by which photons enter an optical fiber. Our interest is in whether it is possible to merge flow from an angle greater than zero, similar to the flow of automobile traffic onto a thruway.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2025-01-27 16:35:16

Posted a long time ago about concept for lunar oxygen system using concentrated solar carried be fiber optic.
https://www.lpi.usra.edu
Lunar and Planetary Institute
https://www.lpi.usra.edu
PDF
Solar Thermal Power System for Oxygen Production from ...

tahanson43206 · 2025-02-25 07:27:41

Development of an Optical Plane Photon Capture system was on pause while we were waiting for a solution to the problem of flowing photons into a fiber filament from an angle. All optical fiber systems (apparently) feed photons dead on into the end of the fiber.

The work done by kbd512 recently may show a solution that does NOT require a flow from an angle. kbd512 showed that the amount of power that can be transmitted through a fiber filament is limited by the cross section of the filament. What this means is that the fiber bundle has to grow in diameter as power increases.

The solution that appears to present itself is to collect a square centimeter of photons using one of the collection devices kbd512 found in his research, and feed those into a single optical fiber that stretches along the horizontal stretch of the wing to right and left of the central spine.

Update: See collection device here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 96#p228596

The longest run in the base scenario is thus 100 meters. The total number collection points (and thus fiber filaments) is 100*100 >> 10,000.

The fibers can be arranged in a stack below the photon collection devices.

The total area taken up by the collecting devices is 10,000 square centimeters which is a square meter.
If the power delivered by the Sun at the distance of the system is 1000 watts per square meter, then each row will collect 1000 watts.

A panel of one kilometer length would collect 100,000 watts, and if there are two panels they would collect 200,000 watts.

The next stage of this inquiry is to discover how to utilize all those photons at the spine, to propel the space craft.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-01 09:12:14

Here are some images that try to capture the essence of kbd512's idea (as I understand it)...

DALL-E is a program that creates images using text as input.

DALL-E has a difficult time translating text into an image that the requestor has in mind.

In this case, we have three images that capture parts of the vision, but none are completely in the zone.

The last image comes closest...it shows the correct shape, but as a board. The top image is round, because I failed to specify that the vessel is long and rectangular. The middle image is long but oblong.

I suspect that it may be necessary to use drawing tools to create an image that is closer to what the vessel might look like.

It might even be possible to create a hand sketch that would show the gradual increase in depth below the platform, as fiber runs from collection traps to the stern.

As a reminder for scale: The "board" is one kilometer long and 200 meters wide. While the frame is imagined as 1 meter thick, the depth below the top surface will increase from front to back (prow to stern) as fiber accumulates along the way. The longest run of fiber will be 1 kilometer and 100 meters. That single fiber will carry photons collected by a 1 centimeter square collection trap, and the nominal power collected will be one watt. There may be some loss of energy along the way. There are repeaters in undersea fiber cables, but this system will have no need for them.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-01 13:07:49

I asked ChatGPT4o to try to calculate the length of optical fiber that would be needed to carry photons from every point on the top of the rectangle to the bottom center where the propulsion unit would be. The number it came up with is 19,999,000 km.

There are 10000 rows and 20000 columns in the array to be collected. The product of those two is 200,000,000.

The length if each line is less by one centimeter, and the distance at the bottom of the array is 1 centimeter.

Here is an attempt to show how the calculation was done:

Thank you for attempting to show the calculation in BBCode. The result appears to be a mixture of BBCode and LaTex commands. I wonder if the summation process can be rendered in BBCode? If not then please just use the word "summation" to indicate the process.
ChatGPT said:
You're absolutely right! I'll ensure that the explanation is fully in BBCode without LaTeX. Here's the corrected version:
Grid Parameters:
[] Width: 200 meters (20,000 columns)
[] Height: 100 meters (10,000 rows)
[] Tether Point: Bottom center (x = 100 meters, y = 0)
[] Routing: Right-angle path via centerline (x = 100 meters)
Distance Calculation for Each Point:
Each grid point at (x, y) follows this path:
[] Move horizontally to (100, y) → Distance: absolute value of (x - 100) meters
[] Move vertically to (100, 0) → Distance: y meters
Total distance per point: absolute value of (x - 100) + y meters
Summing Over the Entire Grid:
Summing Over x (Horizontal Distances)
The total horizontal distance contribution is computed using summation:
Since the grid is symmetric around the center (x = 100 meters), the sum is calculated for one half and then doubled.
The summation of distances from x = 0 to x = 100 meters gives a result of 10,100 meters per column.
With 10,000 rows, the total horizontal contribution is:
10,100 × 10,000 = 101,000,000 meters = 101,000 km.
Summing Over y (Vertical Distances)
Each column has 10,000 rows, and the summation of y-values from 0 to 100 meters results in 5,050 meters per column.
With 20,000 columns, the total vertical contribution is:
5,050 × 20,000 = 101,000,000 meters = 101,000 km.
Final Total Length:
[] Horizontal contribution: 101,000 km
[] Vertical contribution: 101,000 km
Total required line: 19,999,000 km ?

I made adjustments to the request after studying the presentation above. A new calculation offers 11,010,000 km as the total length of line needed.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-01 13:21:06

In a new calculation, after I made adjustments to the values in play, ChatGPT4o gave this result:

Updated Grid Parameters:
Width: 200 meters (20,000 columns) of one centimeter
Height: 1000 meters (1 km, 100,000 rows) of one centimeter
Tether Point: Bottom center (x = 100 meters, y = 0)
Routing: Right-angle path via centerline (x = 100 meters)
Distance Calculation for Each Point:
Each grid point at (x, y) follows this path:
Move horizontally to (100, y) → Distance: absolute value of (x - 100) meters
Move vertically to (100, 0) → Distance: y meters
Total distance per point: absolute value of (x - 100) + y meters
Summing Over the Entire Grid:
1. **Summing Over x (Horizontal Distances)**
- The total horizontal distance contribution is computed using summation.
- The summation of distances from x = 0 to x = 100 meters gives a result of 10,100 meters per column.
- With 100,000 rows, the total horizontal contribution is:
10,100 × 100,000 = 1,010,000,000 meters = 1,010,000 km.
2. **Summing Over y (Vertical Distances)**
- Each column has 100,000 rows, and the summation of y-values from 0 to 1000 meters results in 500,000 meters per column.
- With 20,000 columns, the total vertical contribution is:
500,000 × 20,000 = 10,000,000,000 meters = 10,000,000 km.
Final Total Length:
Horizontal contribution: 1,010,000 km
Vertical contribution: 10,000,000 km
Total required line: 11,010,000 km ?

This problem could be solved using a variety of computer languages, and it is possible it can also be solved by using mathematics.

This topic is available if we are lucky enough to have a NewMars member with the appropriate skills, and the time to perform the same calculation.

The result is of interest for design of the Optical Plane Deep Space Exploration vessel.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2025-03-01 22:22:53

I asked Google for the diameter of a typical optical fiber. Apparently there are a range of diameters in service.

Here is an initial response:

Single mode fiber (SMF) has a tiny core, about 9 micrometers in diameter. This small size forces light to travel in a single path, reducing distortion and allowing for ultra-long-distance transmission. Multimode fiber (MMF) has a larger core, typically 50 to 62.5 micrometers.

In last week's Google Meeting, kbd512 gave us the size of fiber that can carry a power level of one watt.

Update:

In the Google Meeting of 2025/03/02, kbd512 quoted 2 watts per square millimeter for power flow through silicon optical fiber.

I found a resource that offers assurance that a standard communications fiber can handle one watt.

https://www.quora.com/How-much-power-ca … iber-carry

Profile photo for Alan Robinson
Alan Robinson
40 years of optical fibres, fibre transport and photonicsAuthor has 111 answers and 399.7K answer viewsUpdated 5y
“How much power can an optical fiber carry?”: it varies with fibre type.
Single mode fibres used for long-haul telecommunications can easily carry powers of a watt or so.
Higher powers are possible, but the high peak intensity in single mode fibres risks starting a process where the fibre loses some light - for example at a bend in the fibre, or due to dirt at a connector. The energy lost from the small (0.01 mm diameter) core causes the fibre to heat up locally. Hot glass absorbs more light than cold glass, so more energy is lost, and a zone of damage propagates back up the fibre towards the source. This is known as a fibre fuse - the video below shows one in progress.
9
In multimode fibres, the core is much larger - typically at least 0.05 mm or larger diameter, so higher intensities can be carried.
Fibre lasers are available with much higher powers, up to 20 kW in single mode fibre, and 100 kW in multimode fibre. Not my field of expertise, but I believe they use specially designed optical fibres, and almost certainly package the fibre so that tight bends which might dissipate significant power are prevented.
High Power CW Fiber Lasers
As Kjell Lindberg points out, light is a perfectly reasonable means of transferring energy from one place to another. Optical power over fibre even has its own (rather short, but referenced) Wikipedia entry: Power-over-fiber - Wikipedia
The Fraunhofer ISE are rather more optimistic than Kjell regarding power efficiency: Power-by-Light - Fraunhofer ISE
5.8K viewsView upvotes

For the Deep Space vessel application, I am assuming photon traps that collect a watt of solar power, and standard optical fiber to carry the power to the stern of the ship. The power I'm getting is 2000 Megawatts.

That is collected from an array 200 meters wide by 1 kilometer long.

The numbers are:

200 meters wide so 200*100 columns of one centimeters
1000 meters long so 1000*100 rows of one centimeter

200*100*1000*1000 is showing as 2000000000 square centimeters

At one watt per square centimeter, the power collected is 2000 Megawatts.

That power is delivered to the stern of the platform by fiber that is no longer than 1100 meters.

(th)

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#1 2025-01-04 15:38:59

Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#2 2025-01-04 15:39:36

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#3 2025-01-04 18:18:24

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#4 2025-01-05 00:55:15

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#5 2025-01-26 20:46:14

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#6 2025-01-27 16:35:16

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#7 2025-02-25 07:27:41

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#8 2025-03-01 09:12:14

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#9 2025-03-01 13:07:49

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#10 2025-03-01 13:21:06

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

#11 2025-03-01 22:22:53

Re: Optical Plane Photon Capture for Energy Collection

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