Diet for Mars Residents and Space Travelers

tahanson43206 · 2020-11-23 12:31:02

This topic is offered in hopes it will become a repository for posts with advice and references to guide decision makers.

The "decision maker" can be (and will often be) an individual living on Mars, in transit to or from Mars, or considering either.

However, this person will often be someone with responsibility to provide needed nutrition for groups.

While small groups are likely to be the focus for several decades beyond 2020, at some point Large Ships (with 1066 passengers and crew) will be in regular service, and the population on Mars will rise to the thousands.

This forum includes many posts that relate to the subject of a healthy diet for humans and other living creatures.

This topic will lead off with a quote from a newspaper account of work done to investigate the suitability of protein drinks to round out dietary requirements for human beings.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2020-11-23 12:37:08

Index to posts contributed by NewMars members:

#5 RobertDyck - Start on Mars Vegan - review of cattle, birds, aquatic options
# 6 Calliban - Space need to grow food using traditional methods - Underground - Heat - Energy Efficiency
# 7 RobertDyck Radiation - Greenhouses on surface with mirrors
# 23 RobertDyck Recipe Koshari (National Dish of Egypt) https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 81#p228181
# 26 RobertDyck on vegetable oil - sources and methods https://newmars.com/forums/search.php?a … how_recent

The text quoted below came from a local newspaper. The article reports on research into benefits that may occur if the diet of a person includes protein drinks.

The benefits of
protein drinks
By Deena Bouknight
More Content Now
Grandview Research last year estimated global
protein supplement sales were around $17.50
billion, with protein powder the most popular
form of consumption. Matthew Kuchan, Ph.D.,
a research fellow at Abbott Laboratories near
Chicago, believes protein drinks’ overall health
benefits will continue to drive the market upward.

The advantage that ** I ** see in this food category is simplicity.

There may be other advantages as well. I'd appreciate other current members of the forum taking up the challenge of providing a healthy diet for space travelers and for Mars residents.

A starting point is the wealth of related knowledge and advice already present in the forum.

However, I ** do ** have a request ....

SpaceNut (in particular) ...

Please include a snapshot summary of what a link offers.

Forum readers (members and non-members) only have a limited amount of time to invest in learning about a topic in order to make a decision.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2020-11-23 15:37:49

This topic has several facets to it from the start as to how much is brought versus what is grown. The balance of both makes for a menu of daily items and what must time out in harvest in order to supplement what we will eat.

starving on five acres

Mars first crew greenhouse

Designing the best greenhouse demonstrator for Mars

Eat Like a Martian

Food! - Marsians=vegetarians?

Food for Thought, what does a garden need to grow

Crops

Nutrition

International Space Station (ISS / Alpha)

Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

The ISS gives the beginning steps for food growth along the trip to mars, while the Air, Shelter, water, food gives the view from mars surface as to the way in which we are counting on these supporting each other.

tahanson43206 · 2024-11-27 19:57:39

This topic has been quiet since 2020, when SpaceNut contributed links to a number of references.

The recent reporting by Calliban, of research in China to make starch from water and carbon dioxide inspires this re-opening of the Diet topic.

A healthy diet for humans needs to include plenty of bulk, and fresh vegetables often contribute to that component.

I'm hoping our members will watch for articles about how starch might contribute to a healthy diet, and what else might be needed.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2024-11-27 21:56:31

I have argued many times that the first permanent settlement in Mars would be vegan. Not for any philosophical reason, but just because it's practical. Cattle require about 25 calories of feed to produce one calorie of beef. Comparing pounds doesn't work because meat has more calories per pound than vegetables. So for efficiency, it's better to eat vegan. Furthermore cattle require a hard wall pressurized habitat with oxygen and water recycling including sewage processing. Hogs are very similar. Chickens are more efficient but still 9 to 1. Turkey is similar to chicken, just bigger animals. They're both birds, burn fewer calories to maintain body heat.

How do you get livestock to Mars? Mars Direct or any zero-G spacecraft has a major problem. I did discuss putting calves just weaned from milk into hibernation. Current technology can put deer/elk/moose into hibernation, but 10% die when you try to revive them, and 30% of those that survive are permanently brain damaged. They just stand around eating, shitting and sleeping. For livestock that's tolerable. The reason for calves is minimum body weight for transport. Weaned because there won't be any milk on Mars when the first cattle arrive. If 10% die then send extra, the colonists get a beef meal when they arrive.

Chickens could be sent as eggs. Chicken farms do refrigerate fertilized eggs. Temperature is not as cold as a kitchen fridge. But they can only be kept upto 6 weeks, and each day in refrigeration the number of eggs that are viable reduces. An express trajectory to Mars takes 6 months so that won't work. I surgically removing the embryo and freezing in liquid nitrogen. Human embryos at a fertility clinic are frozen that way, it works. Trick is to freeze while it's very small so it freezes quickly enough that crystals don't form. Actually human fertility clinics freeze at the blastocyst stage. For a chicken, freeze the rest of the egg separately. After thawing on Mars, return the embryo/blastocyst to the egg and incubate. Would it work? One proposed solution is to just try freezing a whole chicken egg in liquid nitrogen, see if it's still viable after thawing.

All this ignores the efficiency and issues of raising livestock. So I argued livestock is for a late stage of Mars settlement, after it's rich.

Others suggested livestock that eats waste. Goats are not practical. Same issues raising them. However aquaponics could work. I argued against hydroponics because water is scarce on Mars, and nutrients must be extracted from Mars soil. Why not just use soil agriculture in a greenhouse, let plants extract their own nutrients? However, integration of aquaculture with hydroponics changes things, becomes efficient. And recent discoveries of glaciers on Mars, and the frozen pack ice. So there is plentiful water if you look in the right place.

Some technology for the Large Ship can be used on Mars. Chloroplast oxygen generation is a good backup on Mars, but will not be primary oxygen source. It will on the Large Ship, but Mars will have greenhouses. However, chloroplasts produce starch. A type of mold that normally grows on fruit can consume starch and produce amylase. That enzyme converts starch to sugar. So an excellent sugar source. Mars will grow sugar cane primarily for molasses. That mixed with white sugar makes yellow sugar aka light brown sugar, more molasses producea brown sugar aka dark brown sugar. Even more produces demarara style sugar. Yellow sugar with hot water and a little imitation maple extract makes pancake syrup. And molasses with white sugar can ferment to create rum.

I see a mixture of aquaponics and soil greenhouses on Mars. A type of red kelp can be processed to make fake bacon.

Years ago one company produced "Good Slice" brand vegan cheese. Made from casein, the cheese protein. They bought casein from a company that produced it with microbes, and processed to make cheddar slices, shredded mozzarella, and several types of cheese. What you need for cheese burgers, pizza, etc. Until customers discovered the source is cows milk, casein was isolated by microbes. Oops! That company went out of business. However there are now other companies claiming to produce casein by microbes, no milk involved. Is it true, or another lie?

For details of Mars diet and crops required, look to the "crops" thread.

Calliban · 2024-11-28 00:31:08

It takes about 200 square metres of allotment space to grow enough vegetables (largely potatos) to feed 1 person, under Earth sunlight. On Mars, that space will need to be within a pressurised and heated surface dome. That is a lot of mass per person and a lot of energy needed for heating. It is why I am sceptical that sufficient food can be grown in greenhouses. A portion of food probably will be produced in this way. But the bulk of calories and nutrition need to come from something more efficient. Seperated chloroplasts will produce some. Plants, algae, fungi and yeast grown in acetic acid salts look promissing. That is a form of artificial photosynthesis. We can make food using these ingredients that is actually more nutritious than what most people eat from field agriculture. Synthetic starch looks plausible as well. Meat will be expensive however it is done. Something for special occasions like Christmas.

Practically everything we build on Mars will have to be underground. Whilst the issue of radiation is somewhat overplayed, exposure results in undeniable health risks. Minimising exposure will be desirable. Greenhouses are exposed by their very nature. The cold is an even bigger problem. Mars is as cold as Antarctica. Nuclear reactors will produce waste heat than can be used for keeping these spaces warm. But it is still available in only limited amounts and will be needed for other things. Going underground eliminates almost all of the problems with the Martian environment. But growing things underground in artificial light is power hungry. Growing in acetate solution appears to be much more energy efficient. Starch can be synthesised from methanol using a number of enzymes produced by bacteria. Chinese research suggests that electricity can be converted into starch with efficiency of 30%.

Energy efficiency will be key to the viability of Mars colonisation efforts. Early research assumed that humans woukd need to be fed by plants grown under LEDs in surface vertical farms. This resulted in per capita power requirements of several tens of kW. This was due to the inefficiency of converting power into light and light into fixed calories. The average human needs 2.5kWh of food energy per day. That is a constant power of 104W. Whilst that is a modest amount of power in itself, the inefficiencies involved in natural photosynthesis quickly translate into unworkable amounts of primary energy.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-11-28 00:51:04)

RobertDyck · 2024-11-28 06:59:25

Caliban raised some issues I have argued since joining the Mars Society. Radiation is overblown / exaggerated. Humans or any mammal are sensitive to ionizing radiation. It can damage membranes necessary for us to live. Insects are more resilient to radiation because the don't have most of those membranes. Plants certainly don't. Plants are quite resilient to radiation. I have asserted that on a planet without a breathable atmosphere you must have life support backup. Any chemical/mechanical life support has a single point of failure: power. If you depend on LED lights for plants then they too are dependent on that same single point of failure. A greenhouse using ambient light is the only means to generate oxygen with complete power failure. Awell, chloroplasts in plastic bags can use sunlight too. I argue for 100% greenhouses using ambient light. And you can't burry greenhouses with mirrors or optical fiber to redirect sunlight because collection requires a mirror of some sort that tracks the sun. That tracking mechanism depends on power so again you have that same single point of failure.

Yes, there's the danger of solar flares or coronal mass ejection. A seed bank must be buried deep enough to be completely protected from radiation in worst case scenario. If a CME kills your entire crop, just replant. And yes, there's also dust storms, both regional and global. Yes, LED lights would be necessary. But only use the lights for a dust storm. This would require shutting down industry to redirect power to greenhouses. And you don't want greenhouses dependent on power for anything other than dust storms because again single point of failure.

Greenhouses for a science mission would use floropolimer film gor an inflated greenhouse. This will not last. Although PCTFE is highly resistant to UV damage, dust storms will craze the film. Although plastic film is light weight for transport from Earth, it's hard to make on Mars. Just use tempered glass. "Tempered" is just normal glass with a heat treatment. Easy to make from white sand. Tempered because normal glass is softer than minerals in dust storms so will get crazed. Tempered glass is harder than minerals of Mars dust storms so will not craze.

I have also argued for long narrow greenhouses. Narrow is relative; still twice as wide as the roof is high. Oriented precisely east-west with flat mirrors along both long sides. Mirrors the same height above ground as the bottom of the windows of the greenhouse, and as high as the roof. This would redirect sunlight into the greenhouse, doubling illumination. That brings illumination equal to Earth on a sunny day. The mirrors would not track the sun. Sunlight at dawn would reflect from the east westward into the greenhouse, but still into the greenhouse. Sunlight at dusk would reflect from the west eastward, again into the greenhouse. Mirrors would have to be adjusted for season, but only 1° every 14 Mars solar days. In case of power failure, that angle could be adjusted by a worker in a spacesuit. To be effective the greenhouse must be several times longer than wide, so sunlight at dawn and dusk doesn't just miss the greenhouse.

This mirror system is only required for crops that need full sun, like grains or corn. Most vegetables thrive in shade. They wouldn't be grown in shade on Mars, just a greenhouse without mirrors. That one could be a dome.

When growing with ambient light, the greenhouse will not be vertical, it'll be planar. That meant soil trays. Not stacked, because light comes from above. Yes, I know, I said greenhouses on the Large Ship would use aquaponics and would be vertical. Mirrors would redirect sunlight into the greenhouse, and more mirrors would distribute the light between levels. Sunlight in space is 24/7 without filtration by Earth's oxygen and humidity. Windows in both space and Mars must have a spectrally selective coating to block UV. Number of levels depend on how much light that crop requires and how much is available. Mars has 47% as much light as reaches Earth from space, but 53% as much as reaches Earth's surface. Again Mars doesn't have Earth's thick atmosphere. But Mars has night. So I doubt vertical farming will work on Mars. A spacecraft can motors to track sunlight; not to match or cancel ship rotation, but some. However on Mars greenhouses should not use anything that tracks the Sun. At least not anything that can't be operated by hand. Again, plan for power failure.

Calliban · 2024-11-28 10:14:03

I agree that long, relatively thin polytunnel greenhouses are a more efficient solution than hemispherical domes. The mass of a pressure vessel scales with volume. But the mass of crops produced will be proportional to enclosed land area x average insolation. We therefore want the most enclosed land area for the minimum enclosed volume, whilst maintaining enough head height for human access. A tunnel appears to achieve the optimal balance.

I would agree that natural sunlight is far more desirable than artificial light. Trying to grow plants with artificial light is power hungry and should be avoided unless those plants have particularly high value. Here on Earth, people routinely grow cannabis under LED lights. But no one grows carrots and potatoes that way. That is because the cannabis has high value as a medicinal per unit mass. The carrots don't.

My concern however is more basic. The polytunnels on Mars need to be pressure sustaining structures. As you have pointed out, they also need to be protected by hard but transparent surfaces capable of withstanding abrasion. To grow enough food for 1 person will take about 200m2 of land in temperate environments on Earth. If we assume the same on Mars, that would be a tunnel some 4m wide, 2m high and 50m long. Is that really going to be affordable for each and every colonist? For a city of 1 million, we would need 1 million of those tunnels. How much labour will it take to farm that tunnel to produce food for just 1 person? Maybe we can automate. How much will that cost? Then we must consider heating. Mars is as cold as Antarctica. How much thermal power do we need to heat a 4 x 50m greenhouse on Mars? No doubt we could reduce power by pulling over an insulated shade at night. But that is another design complication that adds cost. Although I don't have exact answers to these questions, pressurised greenhouses don't strike me as an affordable solution for bulk food production. For herbs, spices and specialty fruits and vegetables, maybe we coukd justify the cost. But for staple food we need an arrangement that is energy efficient, compact and labour efficient.

Artificial photosynthesis using acetate solutions as the energy carrying medium, is far more efficient at converting primary energy into calories than natural photosynthesis. It has been a while since I looked at the figures. I will see if I can find them. For production of algae, yeast, bacteria and fungi, we can use vats rather than carefully arranged trays. This is better suited to automation and mass production. Making palatable and nutritious foods out of these ingredients may be more challenging. Many algae are considered superfoods. But the flavour often leaves a lot to be desired. Marmite is a yeast product filled with B vitamins. But it is something you either love or hate. Bacteria make cheese from milk. Microfungi are used to make quorn, which is a meat substitute. I find it inoffensive, but somewhat bland. It disagrees with some people.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-11-28 10:27:17)

tahanson43206 · 2024-11-28 10:29:46

For Calliban re #8

This is surely not an either-or situation.

It seems to me quite reasonable to allocate 200 square meters per resident, and to invite each resident to assume responsibility for that system.

The commitment to fund and maintain that facility could be a part of the contract when leaving Earth.

All 1 million won't be built at once.

The video that Oldfart1939 recommended today shows (via animation) what the gradual buildout of facilities on Mars, using automation, might look like.

Your recommendations for non-photosynthetic food production are vital to be added to the mix.

My interest in this topic is diet, and starch by itself is insufficient for a human to survive, let alone enjoy life.

The possibility of growing plants in acetate infused solution needs to be vigorously pursued for Earth as well as for Mars.

Delivery of trace elements to the mixture is important. Humans need small quantities of many trace elements.

RobertDyck has reported on his experiments with a variety of foods and beverages, and those posts remain available in the archive.

They are not indexed at present, but they could be, if we have a member who is so motivated and has the time.

Note: in recent posts, RobertDyck has reminded readers of the importance of building facilities that can function in the absence of central power.

Calliban reminds us that any such facilities won't survive long without heat from a central source, but they might last long enough to keep things going during maintenance. Planning for resilience seems advisable, whether for Earth or Mars, or somewhere else.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2024-11-28 11:24:21

A couple engineers starting with my late friend Janyce Wynter pointed out Mars has very little heat loss to atmosphere due to low atmospheric density. She believed cooling would be the issue. I wanted to do a heat transfer calculation but have had difficulty. Trying to figure out how to do it from Google searches. I asked at my alma mater but physics professors say it's engineers so refuse to do it. Janice beloved primary heat loss would be to cold ground. I would like to design a greenhouse that regulates its temperature using sunlight. I know, ideal, but if we don't need a nuclear reactor to heat it, this is a great advantage.

NASA devised a spectrally selective coating for windows of spacecraft, space stations, and spacesuit visors. When applied to polycarbonate (Lexan) visors it blocks 98% of UV. When applied to glass it blocks 99% because the glass itself blocks some. There are new dyes that absorb UV, increasing to 99.9% block, but be careful of blocking visible light. When blocking 99% with glass, 85% of visible light passes.

The interesting thing is IR reflection. Reflecting 20% of short wave IR from really hot things like the surface of the Sun, while reflecting 40% of long wave IR from warm things like floor/walls/furniture results in a net heat gain. This can be reversed for a net heat loss. It's used for southern states to reduce air conditioning cost, and in Canada to reduce heating cost. We could use it on Mars. Unfortunately this doesn't produce very strong IR reflection, but 40% is something.

Windows in Canada are at least triple pane. There's a gap between panes, ideally 14-16mm (about 1/2 to 5/8 inch). This can be enhanced by filling with argon gas because it conducts less heat than air. Mars atmosphere has argon. If the argon gas traces of other noble gasses (neon, krypton, xenon) that's fine. Both Earth's and Mars' atmosphere has all those gasses. A greenhouse on Mars would have the gap pressurized lower than interior but higher than Mars ambient. That pressure could be.monitores: a drop means a leak to the outside, an increase means a leak to the interior. Windows in Canada sometimes have multiple panes: often the outside and inside panes are glass but middle panes are polymer film stretched tight. Heat transfer from gas to solid to gas reduces transfer rate, so the more surfaces the greater effective insulation. PCTFE can handle Mars cold and UV, and highly gas impermeable, but making it on Mars is non-trivial.

One method to actively regulate heat is an aluminized polymer curtain drawn across the ceiling and wall windows. It would reflect close to 100%. Closing at night would help keep heat in. A motor could turn a winch to pull on a cord to close or open the curtains. An automated system would reduce labour. And yes, I want it to work during power failure, but closing/opening a curtain is something a worker could do easily. If it gets too hot, circulating air with a fan through conduits in direct contact with ground. Yea, that means the floor must be insulated.

Can we do this?

RobertDyck · 2024-11-28 11:34:24

Large scale automation for wheat and potatoes...
X9%201000%20Combine_61108-1-1.jpeg

Calliban · 2024-11-28 11:42:56

Fine Martian regolith at ambient pressure has about the same thermal conductivity as rockwool.
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 21JE006861

You probably don't need to insulate the floor. Convective heat losses will be much lower in the Martian atmosphere. I have some experience with heat transfer using timestep models in spreadsheets. I will look into building a model.

RobertDyck · 2024-11-28 11:55:05

Another trick for Mars: artificial flour. According to one research paper, wheat flour is 12.67% moisture, 10.55% protein, 0.94% fat, 74.88% carbohydrate (almost entirely starch). Calcium, iron, and phosphorus measure in mg/100g. That can vary, protein in whole wheat can be up to 15%. Artificial flour could be made by mixing wheat protein from a genetically engineered microbe with starch from chloroplasts. The microbe fed with sugar that comes from treating starch with amylase. Wheat protein is 80% to 85% gluten. Could we engineer a microbe to do this?

RobertDyck · 2024-11-28 12:10:34

Another issue for greenhouse efficiency: plants have a problem with oxygen binding to RUBP instead of CO2. That's the first step in the dark reaction of photosynthesis aka the Calvin/Benson cycle. When oxygen binds, the result must be recycled back into RUBP. Plants do this, but it takes energy. The more O2 binds the more energy is wasted. Increasing CO2 to O2 ratio reduces the rate of O2 binding. That increases efficiency. Simply increasing CO2 in greenhouses is an extremely easy way to increase efficiency.

Calliban · 2024-11-28 12:54:17

RobertDyck wrote:

Another trick for Mars: artificial flour. According to one research paper, wheat flour is 12.67% moisture, 10.55% protein, 0.94% fat, 74.88% carbohydrate (almost entirely starch). Calcium, iron, and phosphorus measure in mg/100g. That can vary, protein in whole wheat can be up to 15%. Artificial flour could be made by mixing wheat protein from a genetically engineered microbe with starch from chloroplasts. The microbe fed with sugar that comes from treating starch with amylase. Wheat protein is 80% to 85% gluten. Could we engineer a microbe to do this?

Pure starch can be made from methanol. It requires the use of enzymes as catalysts. Chinese researchers estimate that electrical energy can be converted into starch calories at an efficiency of 30%. That is amazing. But the resulting starch has no additional nutritional content. No protein, no carbs, no micronutrients. Those things will have to come from mixing the starch with something else. A genetically engineered bacteria producing protein might work as you suggest. Algae might be an option - chlorella is 51-58% protein. But the flavour is repulsive.

RobertDyck · 2024-11-28 13:13:05

Wikipedia: Photosynthetic efficiency
Photosynthetic efficiency is 11%. One reason is only 45% of light is absorbed, the rest are frequencies it cannot use. You could get fancy, use a prism to split colours, direct colours it cannot use to a photovoltaic cell. But I don't think that's necessary.

Calculate total efficiency starting with a photovoltaic panel to convert sunlight into electricity. Is the Chinese method really more efficient?

Calliban · 2024-11-28 14:13:57

RobertDyck wrote:

Wikipedia: Photosynthetic efficiency
Photosynthetic efficiency is 11%. One reason is only 45% of light is absorbed, the rest are frequencies it cannot use. You could get fancy, use a prism to split colours, direct colours it cannot use to a photovoltaic cell. But I don't think that's necessary.
Calculate total efficiency starting with a photovoltaic panel to convert sunlight into electricity. Is the Chinese method really more efficient?

Not sure. Using PV as the electricity source, they say it is 8.5x more efficient than corn.
https://cen.acs.org/synthesis/catalysis … eb/2021/09
https://newatlas.com/science/artificial … -from-co2/

Here is the video that prompted my interest.
https://youtu.be/e2SsheLN1t8

Here is their paper.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … on_dioxide

Last edited by Calliban (2024-11-28 14:31:57)

RobertDyck · 2024-11-28 14:49:26

Yes, found this article in Science, but only the abstract is available. Full article requires a subscription. It's years since I had a subscription. Anyone here have one?
Cell-free chemoenzymatic starch synthesis from carbon dioxide

Spectrolab is one of two manufactures of space photovoltaics in the US. Years ago they were purchased by Boeing Satellite Systems. This is their website:
Photovoltaics Beginning-Of-Life efficiency 32.2%, End-Of-Life efficiency 27.9%

Chinese Academy of Sciences: Chinese Scientists Create Starch from Scratch

Chinese scientists have created starch, a type of complex carbohydrate found in plants, using carbon dioxide, hydrogen and electricity, according to a study published in the journal Science on Friday.

If they require hydrogen, then what's the efficiency of a water electrolysis cell?

You see, I'm worried about food safety when making food from methanol. Methanol is toxic. My approach takes chloroplasts from the leaves of a pea plant. We know peas are edible. Pea starch is used in commercial food production. The company NutriPea sells bulk pea starch for processed foods; their advertising is highly consistent gels. Consistency is important for processed foods. So we know starch from pea chloroplasts will be edible.

Calliban · 2024-11-28 15:05:21

Methanol is water soluble. Starch is insoluble in cold water. I think contamination risks are minimal *if people do their jobs properly*.

One potential problem: Whilst making methanol is relatively easy...
3H2 + CO2 = CH3OH + H2O

...turning methanol into starch involves several process steps using enzymatic catalysts. Where do those enzymes come from? Do they have a reasonably long half life in the system? If we end up having to grow large quantities of gene edited bacteria in agar to make the required enzymes then it is going to put a dent in the whole process efficiency. It wasn't clear from the papers if the energy cost of the enzymes was factored in to efficiency.

I notice that the paper is 3 years old now and there doesn't appear to be any synthetic starch on the market. That means one of two things: (1) A technical bottleneck - difficulty sourcing reagents and scaling the process; (2) An economic bottleneck - more affordable sources of starch elsewhere.

Last edited by Calliban (2024-11-28 15:09:58)

tahanson43206 · 2024-11-28 15:57:36

For Calliban re #19

Thank you for the interesting and timely questions you've posed.

The direction that RobertDyck appears to prefer is to use biochemistry.

Upon first learning of the Chinese work (and without digging deep into whatever papers there might be) I thought that the process might involve pure chemistry. I associate the term "enzyme" with living creatures so it would be biochemistry if they are used. Can enzymes be produced without living creatures involved?

For RobertDyck.... you too have posed an interesting question, but it does not show up as a question. You appear to think that starch has a different chemical forumula if is is produced from peas that it would if it were produced from ethanol.

If the question I am posing is of interest, please take a few minutes to consider it.

Methanol is a fairly simple molecule compared to starch. Once a sufficient number of methanol molecules have been assembled into a complex molecule, the properties you are worried about would be subsumed into the larger structure.

Please consider this situation if you have time.

SpaceNut doesn't have any time at all these days. The rest of our members have precious little to spare.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2024-11-28 16:12:20

Question: Another advanced food production that could be used on a Large Ship - potatoes.

For the ship, the trick is to dramatically increase yield. A new cultivar is required to produce few leaves, stems and roots, more potato. This crop will require full sun 24/7. That isn't practical for a field on Earth or Mars, so exclusively for vertical farming. The ship can use mirrors to reflect sunlight 24/7, on Earth a vertical farm would use LED lights. The cultivar must also be tolerant to multiple harvests. Pick full-grown potatoes without destroying the plant, leave undeveloped potatoes to continue to grow. Ideally the plant will grow new potatoes from roots once existing potatoes are harvested.

Potatoes grown in hydroponics / aquaponics. This requires a growth medium, something to provide stability to hold the plant. Clay beads are often used with potatoes, but I propose glass beads. The beads will be coloured with a dye opaque to visible light, but transparent to a band of IR that a commercial IR camera can see. The acronym used is FLIR - Forward Looking InfraRed. This means a camera that can see like a normal digital video camera. Older technology had a single image sensor, one pixel, that had to be scanned across the scene. FLIR is just a camera. Infrared covers a vast band, from red to microwaves. Whatever bad a commercial FLIR camera can see must be transparent to these glass beads. The reason is potatoes produce a green toxin when exposed to visible light. This is the green spot on potatoes. This makes potato leaves and potato fruit toxic. Yes, potatoes produce a fruit similar to a cherry tomato, but don't eat it. It has seeds, but the seeds do not necessary produce a plant identical to the parent. To ensure crop consistency, potatoes are "cloned". The simply method is to cut a potato into sections, with one "eye" per section. That eye will grow to become a root, and grow a new plant. Planting seeds to see what you get and cross pollinating is how new varieties of potato are created. To ensure these potatoes are edible, they must grow without visible light. To see where they are and which is ready for harvest, they must be visible to the video camera. Hence the glass beads and IR camera.

A variety of potato could be grown on Mars that does not require light 24/7, but grows with normal day/night cycles. However, is tolerant to multiple harvests. This potato could be grown in hydroponics with robot hands to harvest. Eventually the plants will no longer produce, so will have to be removed and new ones planted. The idea is multiple harvests before replacement is necessary. That way the plant doesn't have to waste nutrients growing leaves, stems, and roots with every harvest. Just as an apple tree doesn't have to grow a new tree, just new apples.

Down side of this is it doesn't work with soil. It requires hydroponics to ensure growth medium is glass beads and water with dissolved nutrients. Required to see the potatoes.

RobertDyck · 2024-11-28 16:18:19

Tom:
Methanol is wood alcohol. It's toxic. Ethanol is the alcohol we drink in beer/wine/whisky etc. Left image is methanol, right is ethanol. The Chinese method starts with methanol.

RobertDyck · 2024-11-29 18:46:38

What do you think of Koshari? I discovered this when looking for what to do with lentils. It's lentils, rice, macaroni, with a spicy tomato sauce. No attempt to look like meat. Details: lentils cooked with cumin, garlic, and bay leaf. Dry rice cooked 2 minutes in vegetable oil, then add vegetable stock and simmer 20 minutes. Tastes like rice-a-roni. Macaroni made the usual way. Tomato sauce without North American spices, I use crushed tomatoes. Start by cooking diced onion in vegetable oil until translucent, add minced garlic, cook further until browned. Add tomato sauce, red wine vinegar, Bharat spice blend, and red chilli flakes. Simmer. This recipe bcalls for brown lentils, but red lentils has been used and I use red because it's traditional and cooks faster. Brown lentils remain whole while cooked red lentils become a paste.
Koshari (The National Dish of Egypt)

Basharat spice blend

RobertDyck · 2024-11-29 22:50:09

Tom posted about the recipe. In the crops thread I posted some of this. Vegetable oil can be made from any one of several sources: canola, sunflower, safflower, corn, soy. Since soy will be needed as a protein source with a mostly vegan diet, I suggest soy. Just fewer crops. There is a kitchen countertop expeller than can press seeds to make vegetable oil. Here's one, it can process several seeds including canola, but not soy.
Kitchen Oil Press Machine Electric

CucinaPro 178 Fresh Pasta Set

How To Make Veggie Stock With Kitchen Scraps

Spices:
Black peppercorns - seed of a vine
Cumin seed - annual herb
Coriander seeds - annual herb
Whole cloves - unopened flowers of a tree
Cardamom seeds - seed of a plant
Paprika - dried and ground red peppers, variety is called paprika
Ground cinnamon - inner bark of a tree
Ground nutmeg - nut of a tree
Bay leaf - leaves of the bay laurel tree
Red chilli flakes - crushed dried red chilli peppers, usually cayenne
Onion - just a bulb plant
Garlic - a bulb of the onion family

Not used in the above recipe: mace - from the husk of nutmegs

I have more details in the crops thread

RobertDyck · 2024-11-29 23:12:22

Baking powder is made from a dry powder acid, dry powder alkali, and starch as a stabilizer. A healthy recipe is cream of tartar, baking soda, and starch. Cream of tartar can be made by processing dregs from a fermentation vat after making red wine. It has to be red wine.

This means growing grapes for a few reasons: table grapes to eat, red wine, wine vinegar, and cream of tartar. Commercial wine grapes don't make good eating grapes, but if you're not a wine snob we can use one variety for all purposes. I grow Valiant grapes in my back yard. Commercial grapes won't grow here, winters are too cold. Valiant grows like a weed. Small grapes about the size of blueberries, taste similar to Concord, has seeds like Concord grapes. Doesn't have to be this variety, but I make home made wine.

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